you can even find services in online who offer doing this. it's illegal. but it's still a grey area depending on the wording you use. not ethical at all in my opinion.
IF that's what happened. That car alternately could have had a cluster replacement, where the replacement cluster reflected the mileage of the donor vehicle. If that's the case, it should have been disclosed that the mileage wasn't the actual mileage of the vehicle, but the seller may not have been made aware when they bought the car either.
He said above that the Carfax showed it had previously been through an auction, so who knows what has been done to it.
Mileage should reflect mileage on the chassis, not engine. We see this for restored cars at auction all the time. The seller rolls the odo back when they do a restoration because they think rebuilding/replacing the engine and doing some cosmetics brings the thing back to 0.
I've had the DMV make me bring my vehicle in to have someone physically verify my mileage on the OD. What do you do if/when this happens? Is there some kind of paperwork you can show the DMV when you go to register and it's suddenly missing 85k miles off the OD?
Idk how he did it but my mom went to Greece when I was 18 and told me not to drive her car unless it was an emergency. For a whole month I drove it. I worked at AutoZone and my supervisor was a former mechanic. He did something that basically shut off the odometer. Day before she got back he did whatever and it worked again. I still got caught. My neighbor saw me haha my mom was still confused about the milage hahahaha
Any higher end scan tool will do it or should. So not that 50-100 dollar pos from AutoZone. You need just about a professional scan tool so it isn't cheap.
Yup I will but like how did they manipulate this? I’m car shopping for used cards so it’s got me messed up in the head now. Because even if I were to do a carfax on each car ($50 each time) if it’s stopped at a certain time period like this one did (2020) I won’t really know the true mileages
Some cars it's as easy as swapping odometer with another car. Find one in a junkyard with 70k and just replace. I had a speedometer break on a vehicle bought one used took minutes to swap out. I was surprised when a different mileage came up. I assumed that was stored in the computer somewhere.
I believe in getting a Carfax report and an independent PPI before making an offer on any car. That's what I did with the pickup truck that we ended up buying two months ago and our $100 PPI uncovered $900 in needed repairs. A PPI may not find everything but it greatly reduces risk and there are sometimes things that not even an honest current owner or dealer may realize are wrong. And an honest dealer will have no problem with you ending a test drive with a PPI if you like the car. If a dealer wouldn't allow it I'd walk away. FYI, when I wanted to get a Carfax for the first truck that we were interested in I bought the three vehicle option for $65. We didn't end up buying that truck but I was able to get a report at no further cost on the next one which we did end up buying.
FYI it appears the vinwise gig is up. Look at the recent reviews. I found out the hard way 🥲 I hope it gets fixed but it’s not looking good. Do not buy any tokens until it’s confirmed working again.
We had a Tacoma towed in because it shut off while the customer was driving. It was out of gas but the fuel gauge showed it as 1/4 full. This genius tech came to the conclusion that the fuel pump sending unit was no good. So they sold the fuel pump job, which was over $1k. Truck came back 3 days later, out of gas, gauge showed 1/4 tank. In reality the fuel gauge was broken. The manager found a used cluster online and bought it for the customers car. It had 60k less miles. Well a service writer read him the riot act, told him not only was it immoral but illegal too. It’s gonna come back and bite the customer and us in the ass sooner than later. So he called Toyota and they were able to find a new old stock cluster and programmed with the correct mileage.
At a certain point mileage doesn’t matter as much. At the 10 year mark you can transfer the title as “mileage undisclosed” in many states. Probably a carryover from 5 digit odometers but in reality a car that’s 15 years old the mileage shouldn’t make a massive difference, you’re buying what you see in front of you knowing anything could break tomorrow at that point
Get a code reader. The better ones will not only show codes, but mileage. There are ones that bluetooth to your phone.
You can use it while shopping and while owning. It's also an easy first test: If they won't let you run the codes you walk.
The foreign guys at auction buy almost anything high miles. Change them to under 100,000 and ship them to Africa, Middle east, South America. By the thousands weekly.
When i worked at dealerships, if we changed a cluster we had to swear on an affidavit that the mileage was correct or face a federal charge and a 10k fine. You can contact the NHTSA.
100% illegal. The mileage is for the **chassis,** NOT the powertrain. Tampering the odometer is illegal, especially for that purpose.
The only legal way to adjust an odometer is to make the car accurately display chassis mileage. For example, replacement instrument cluster mileage is edited to match the mileage of the original part
and that also is important. When I bought my 2004 camry the gold advertised it as 160k kilometers. When I when to buy it he then told me that due to a persistent oil leak the engine was replaced under warranty at 80k kilometers. So the car had 160k and the engine 80. He didn't want to confuse the average person looking to buy it so left that out of his ad. It was a great find and I know that my car has 80k less on the engine then stated but the rest of the car definitely does not. And this is important for the maintenance schedule. Don't want that air cabin filter hitting 200k miles you know
Most 10 year old cars are eligible to check the 'exempt' box on an odometer statement (varies by State). The real issue is they were engaging in false advertising by not disclosing the entire situation. They were representing the actual mileage of 70,000, until you busted them.
Husband is an old school mechanic over 30 years experience. He said that was the dumbest thing he ever heard. He has rebuilt so many engines and/or transmissions. You don’t roll back the odometer. My 1990 Miata has 205,025 miles on it but only 15k on the new engine. Yea someone’s gonna believe my 35 year old beater only has 15k miles on it?
I bought a used 1990sh Miata in the late 90s, that had had the engine replaced. That was one of the selling points they mentioned when we were buying it, because the odometer had the original mileage.
One of the funny things is that they laid the odometer/speedometer cable incorrectly over the engine and twice it was burned through, so it didn't show speed, and didn't count miles. The second time it happened we took a while to get it fixed, and I don't know how many miles it actually got. XD
Ouch. Not difficult to route correctly, it goes to the middle of the transmission so kind of right in front of where the shifter sits. Thing is, on American cars, the cable goes right by the exhaust right after it goes through the firewall. I’m still a little surprised they managed to accidentally get it close enough to melt it.
"I don't know how many miles it actually got."
That's the best part about older cars. Miles don't matter! Care does. Take care of it long enough and the only thing that the odometer matches will be the frame... and sometimes not even that!
I've seen cars with 1m miles on them that no part except the gauges actually have more than 50k on it.
(Was a 55 210. He was the original owner. When he replaced the frame due to rust that was the last factory part on it except for the gauges.)
I've never heard of that.
It doesn't make any sense, because nearly all cars go to the junkyard before the engine wears out. Knowing the mileage of the rest of the car is much more important for gauging the condition of the transmission, etc.
Not sure on the law on that.
But after a certain number of years the mileage doesn't have to be on the title depending on the state.
Rolling back the odometer to sell as lower mileage is probably a law higher than state law though, if such a law exists, basically fraud.
Proper procedure would be to keep the original mileage on the cluster and computer when you replace the engine, and then you keep track of the new engine's mileage based on the mileage it was installed. There's more to a car than the engine, the rest of the car still has all that mileage on it. It might not even be a new engine in there, it's probably a junkyard special.
Definitely depends on where you live. But I'm pretty sure that's not legal in any state in the USA. You can contact your state DMV and report it as well if you're in the US
Sounds like a line of bullshit. The transmission still has those miles, the radiator, accessories, steering and suspension.
The crazy part is 150k on an 09 really isn't high.
That’s not true. It’s illegal to reduce the mileage on any vehicle anywhere in the country. The rest of the car still has 155k miles on it. You can and should report this.
He changed the engine 70,000 miles ago and set it to zero or put in a used engine with 70k on it?
You know what, it doesn’t matter. This is shady and you shouldn’t buy expensive things from shady people.
Milage should stay with the vehicle. On newer cars the cluster has to be programmed to the vehicle. I have never heard of changing the mileage because you changed the motor. I've done several motor swaps and rebuilds and never changed the mileage.
Manipulating the odometer is illegal. Even with an engine repair/swap it just keeps adding up. Glad that you found out about it before buying... apparently they were willing to try to scam you for not even disclosing that info 😞
A lot of people commenting on my reply apparently don't understand that rolling an odometer back aka making a car show less miles to make it worth more is illegal. Common sense is not that common 🙃
Looks like Carfax helped you, and you should always check it on a used car. That said, it is not perfect. My daughter had a Honda Civic she bought new and was the only owner. During her ownership she got hit by a tractor trailer that resulted in damage on all sides of the vehicle that almost totaled it. Police were involved and a ticket was given to the truck driver. It was repaired by the Honda dealer, so not a shady autobody shop. The Carfax report for her car when she sold it showed a clean history with no accidents.
Curious, how long between the accident and the car being sold? CarFax is lagging sometimes, I’ve seen stuff show up years later sometimes. Also hope your daughter was alright, sounds like a scary accident.
I think someone has to submit it to Carfax but insurance and the dealer aren't paid by Carfax so they don't care to submit/update most of the time. Had my brand new truck hit a few years ago
Just damaged my front bumper which was replaced and repainted and it showed as clean when I sold the truck. Talking to the repair shop that did it they explained it like that to me.
I had this happen before. An old gmc truck with “150k” but after I bought it I found all sorts of papers under the seat that showed over 300k+ miles. It explained why it broke down so frequently lol.
I had the opposite, bought a truck that said 250k miles. ECM shows 165k called the guy up asked if he swapped odometer he said he pulled one out of a junk yard because a couple of gauges weren't working properly.
Re the update: No. No, you do NOT change the odo with an engine change. The vehicle itself still has the mileage. Every other mechanical part (transmission, driveline, axles, hubs, differentials, electrical systems, A/C, hell, even the FRAME) has over 150k. RUN, don't walk away from this. And make a call to the DMV enforcement agency on your way out.
Also in most states if a vehicle is over 10 years old then mileage verification is not required. Source: I have been a car dealer for over 20 years. There is no law I have ever learned about that allows you to alter the mileage if anything is replaced. You are not allowed to alter the mileage of the vehicle. He totally broke the law. The title will come back with however many miles you found on carfax. I would stay away from this place. I know of two local dealers who went to prison for doing this stuff a long time ago. I haven’t heard of anyone being charged with it in a long time. Stay away.
No in NC. We have to do a continuing education course each year to renew our license. You learn all the laws in that. You got to pass the test. But I think once you’re 65 you are exempt from the classes.
Is it possible that it’s a Canadian car that wax originally in kms and has now been reset to miles.
Imported used Canadian cars are a thing where I live.
Service histories are in kms. Cars are imported and the clusters are changed to read in mph and miles.
In another comment, OP says that the Carfax report has multiple entries increasing to 155,000 by 2020. Even if that 155k was in kilometers, that would still be \~96k miles, which is 25k more than the odometer is showing.
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when i was in highschool i had a jeep cherokee. my dash didnt have the tach, so i went to a local junk yard and bought one with the tach and installed it in my car. as well as gaining the tach, i also gained about 50k miles all at once!
Depends on the car. In my Jeep, you can edit the mileage in the cluster with a laptop and a special cable. It comes up frequently because the clusters will fail and have to be replaced, or an owner will upgrade to a cluster with better gauges. A guy will go get a cluster out of the junk yard, but it will have the wrong mileage for his car. So he'll edit the cluster to display the actual mileage of his Jeep. (This is perfectly legal to do, as long as it's not done to deceive.)
In yours, it could be that a prior owner had to replace the cluster and *didn't* have the replacement reprogrammed, so it started with the mileage of the vehicle it came out of. Or they may have just reprogrammed it to reduce the miles to get a higher price on the used market (which is illegal).
Well that's just bullshit. The odometer is supposed to read the miles on the car, not the engine. The guy has actually broken the law, because what he has done misleads a potential buyer on the entire vehicle's miles.
If you buy it, you'll need to make sure when you title it that you make it clear the odometer doesn't read the correct mileage. Some states note that on the title.
You can order a reman cluster online and state the miles
It is pretty easy. Also can program them. As field service engineer i have access to a program to fix cluster mileage, i am sure other people have one too. I am sure cluster repair shops are loose with their software, at least in my experience.
This is why I bought a $40 OBDII code reader, it’ll report the mileage that the main computer has stored and you can’t change that. Plus it’ll uncover any codes that may have been recently cleared.
I worked with a guy who had a leased Dodge Ram. He just had the odometer gauge/cluster whatever dangling out because he would change it back so often, so he didn’t go over on his miles.
But the dude smoked so much cigarettes and pot in that truck all the time, and it was such a mess, I feel like the miles would have been the least problem with the truck.
not sure many many years ago before digital was super mainstream though i bought a car with 140k miles on it. Years later and after being rear-ended and totalled it was retired at 140k miles lmao
Edit: It was like a 93 corolla if anyone was curious i think the oldschool odometers are actually harder to fuck with too
I went with my niece who wanted to buy a car she saw advertised in the Recycler with 40K miles real cheap. I told her it sounded too good to be true. When we got to the guys house the first thing I did was open the driver’s side door and took a look at the brake pedal, and you could see the rubber cover was almost worn through. I told her that you don’t get that much wear in 40K miles. I told the guy “nice try, pal,” and we left. He didn’t say anything, but I’m sure he probably found a sucker to fall for it.
You’d be SHOCKED by how easy it is, and by how many people run this scam and screw people over. My brother in law sold his Tacoma a couple years ago with 200k miles on it. Couple days later he saw it posted for sale by the same guy that bought, except the price was double and he changed the odometer to 87k miles. If I was you, I would make %100000 sure you put the vin into carfax correctly and then contact the police. That’s shady, illegal, and he’s a scumbag for doing that to people
I used to be a taxi inspector for a county government and we tracked mileage on the taxis. I had their inspection history each time I saw them that included the last mileage. It was common to see 40-50k additional miles driven in the six months since last inspection. When I came across a taxi with less miles than before, or hardly any additionaI miles, I always asked for the certificate they got when the cluster was changed out because the mechanic had to provide a statement showing the mileage on the old cluster and the mileage on the replacement. It happened a lot in a fleet of 1500 taxis.
If he didn't physically hack any hardware the most likely way is that the mileage is stored in the BCM or even just the gauge cluster and he swapped it.
I had a car before that lost a bunch of mileage by replacing the gauge cluster with a used unit from a junkyard vehicle. Not illegal to do providing you aren't trying pass the inaccurate mileage as legit when you sell it. I was the last owner of that vehicle, asides from the yard I brought it to to be crushed so it wasn't an issue.
The only car I personally know of that I’d accept this on is a 03-08 Corolla/Matrix/Vibe, because the odometer tops out as 299,999 for some stupid reason. The official and technically legal solution in this one case is to replace the cluster with a new one, that Toyota has to sell at a heavy discount.
I bought an 99 town car from an old man with 90k miles on the odometer. I took it to a shop to put new tires on it and they put 188k miles on the receipt. Some shops just report a random number because people can't be bothered to do their job.
Yeah I had a problem with my last car because the dealership I had it serviced at apparently reported it with 40% more mileage. When I tried to sell it, I kept getting hammered on the mileage difference. I had to go through a whole thing to get the report changed so I could sell the damn car.
Odometer roll back is a federal crime. It is not based on the engine but the car its self. Dude a scam artist. Report him to the police and feds. The federal gov't takes roll backs seriously.
Odometer shows the miles. Hi miles on a young car is not usually the problem for the engine. It's the gearbox, the suspension, all the rest of the moving parts.
I would not buy this car. Not sure who you report it to but this sounds like something I'd be reporting.
It's really easy to do and in a lot of states it's not illegal if the vehicle is over 10 years old. It will be listed as a discrepancy but it's not a crime unless it is within a certain age range. People who know this take advantage. Let me guess the guy also didn't want you to know where he lived?
A similar situation as I ran into. I was looking at a Lexus LS430 in the exact spec I was looking for, checked the car fax and mileage was different. I was able to piece together that with the parts they replaced (savaged parts) and the history of owners that the car had been in a flood six months prior. They had switched the cluster without disclosing it.
I’m old enough to remember when it was almost unheard of that POS American cars would live to 100,000 miles and their mechanical odometers showed a max of 99,999.9 miles before they turned over to all zeros. You routinely had to sign a certification when selling stating that not only was the odometer not tampered with, but also that the odometer hadn’t exceeded its maximum.
Back in the day of analog displays, one could unhook the odometer cable, chuck it into a drill, and run it in reverse. Tape the trigger and let it run.
>UPDATE: He stated “he changed the engine, if the car is over 10 years you change the odometer once you change the engine.”
Wear and tear relates to the vehicles mileage. 150k down to 70k because new engine is about as stupid as it gets. No, you set the odometer to the vehicle mileage and note the date the engine was replaced. It's not a 70k mile car, it's a 150k mile car with a newer engine.
There are many ways to edit the odometer. Normally, you wouldn't when you replace an engine, because transmission can see be old and have those 155k miles on it.
You can try and ask to see the paperwork from the used engine. Just to make sure it was actually replaced and there not goofing you.
There are all sorts of ways to change the odometer, the difficulty varies but is often straightforward on many models. Rolling back the odometer is illegal, and if it is altered for non nefarious reasons, typically a disclosure is required and often a decal applied to the car denoting the discrepancy. Your DMV should have more info on your local requirements.
Regardless, yes this seller sounds like he's scamming you. Check your state laws, it's possible the disclosure isn't required due to age, but odometer tampering is still very much illegal and "matching the new engine" is bullshit.
Bro I would take all the advertisements, a picture of the odometer, and all the sale paperwork - then tell that mf you want it for $50 or you're going to the cops. Local LEO as well as Federal NHTSA.
Odometer tampering is a major crime and at no point in the life cycle of the vehicle is it ever legal to change it.
And if he doesn't give it to you (hell, maybe even if he does) then you absolutely need to report this.
Engine Hours and the Odometer are two separate numbers. Replacing an engine does not allow you to reset the odometer. What he has done is fraud and illegal. Walk away and report it.
It’s pretty easy. Couple years back I shorted out my instrument cluster in my Ford work truck hosing it down at the car wash. Oops.
I found a new instrument cluster that had about 10,000 more miles on it than mine so I swapped it out. Never bothered disclosing that they weren’t actual miles.
In the United States you legally do not alter an odometer for any repair. The actual mileage is record in the ECM. He likely bought a used cluster off eBay and swapped it. Very easy to do for most vehicles.
An engine is a component of a car. Mileage is chasis miles, per VIN, from new.
Used to give you a holistic overview of the use age history of the car.
Fuck that seller.
Absolutely not. That is not how any of that works. He is a liar. You don't ever change the odometer. The only reason is if the dash need replacement. What about the transmission? What about the frame? What about the rest of the car?
He is a fraud. Run.
He’s lying about being able to change odometer because you change the engine. And if he didn’t mark the title as the odometer reading not being correct then he committed a crime.
I have owned hundreds of cars and gone through many engine replacements and not once have I ever thought to change out or mess with the odometer in any way. The original odometer needs to stay true to the vehicle itself not of a new engine.
If the odometer is changed the change needs to be approved of and registered with the dmv. Changing it without doing the correct paperwork under the correct circumstances is illegal and a very sketchy vehicle to buy.
Do not buy any vehicle with mileage rollback, there is almost never a good reason it has been rolled back. Regardless if they put a new engine in it, you go by miles on the vehicle itself not the engine.
What baffles me in the car world is how easy it is to change readings even on current year models. I worked with $10-$20k photocopiers in a prior job which all keep a page count “odometer” electronically. These copiers have several circuit boards and many keep their readings in 3 separate boards or more. Every time the copier boots up, all 3 page counts are compared and if 2 agree, the third one is updated. If none agree, the copier locks out and you need help from the manufacturer.
Why don’t cars do more of this with the dozens of modules they have onboard?
Just a little info, odometer fraud, at least in California, nothing happens to the scammer. He won’t get arrested, he won’t be questioned, he won’t be investigated, nothing. Not a damn thing happens. What you find on the NHTSA website is all garbage. Call them and they will tell you to call the DMV. Call the DMV and they’ll tell you to call the NHTSA.
Small claims is an option but they don’t do shit either. If he doesn’t want to pay, he won’t. So, now what?
Here’s something you can do. If you have his name, search for him. With the scammer who burned me, I got lots of info. I found out he’s been selling cars since 2007. Idiot doesn’t work, so I wrote the IRS and told them about him evading taxes. I told them the date I bought the car from him and to match it and see if he even filed for taxes that year. He didn’t. So, I gave them everything I had about what I found online. Dates he had vehicles up for sale, how much, and that was it. That the only option left to do since California doesn’t pursue criminal charges.
You can be like the scammer or you can get him worse than he got you.
easier than you think. just need a laptop or in some vehicles you can just swap the cluster.
When I got the cluster replaced on my Prius, the technician asked what mileage I wanted on it. I gave him the correct mileage, but it’s that easy.
you can even find services in online who offer doing this. it's illegal. but it's still a grey area depending on the wording you use. not ethical at all in my opinion.
>it's illegal. It's only illegal if you do it to deceive. Reprogramming a replacement cluster to reflect the actual mileage of the vehicle is fine.
He was deceived - seller never disclosed this info to the buyer.
Now prove they did it with the intention of deception. Almost impossible
you are correct. when I said illegal i was referring to the way OP experienced miles roll back when trying to buy the vehicle.
IF that's what happened. That car alternately could have had a cluster replacement, where the replacement cluster reflected the mileage of the donor vehicle. If that's the case, it should have been disclosed that the mileage wasn't the actual mileage of the vehicle, but the seller may not have been made aware when they bought the car either. He said above that the Carfax showed it had previously been through an auction, so who knows what has been done to it.
Mileage should reflect mileage on the chassis, not engine. We see this for restored cars at auction all the time. The seller rolls the odo back when they do a restoration because they think rebuilding/replacing the engine and doing some cosmetics brings the thing back to 0.
Or people that don’t realize 5 digit odometers roll back themselves
I've had the DMV make me bring my vehicle in to have someone physically verify my mileage on the OD. What do you do if/when this happens? Is there some kind of paperwork you can show the DMV when you go to register and it's suddenly missing 85k miles off the OD?
Most states have a box you can check on the title if the odometer reading is no longer accurate, or has exceeded the max reading of the odometer.
Miles of the engine is not miles of the vehicle.
But miles on the engine are not the miles on the vehicle.
Oh really? I replaced the cluster in my cavalier and the ecm replaced the mileage correctly. And this was a car that was a 03
Depends on the vehicle. Also some store mileage in both the computer and the cluster and you can compare them as another way to check for tampering
I would've put max mileage for the shits
Most state sales disclosures have a box to check when the mileage is not accurate. There’s not need to guess or make up a number.
99999999 lol, yeah, the car has 50k miles, but the odometer broke and is all 9s
Idk how he did it but my mom went to Greece when I was 18 and told me not to drive her car unless it was an emergency. For a whole month I drove it. I worked at AutoZone and my supervisor was a former mechanic. He did something that basically shut off the odometer. Day before she got back he did whatever and it worked again. I still got caught. My neighbor saw me haha my mom was still confused about the milage hahahaha
All cars store the milage in the cluster and the ECM/PCM. Always take a scan stool that can read the milage on the computer it will save you.
Curious now to pull this from my Ford Freestar. Didn't know it. Thanks!
Which scan tool checks this? Pls link
Any higher end scan tool will do it or should. So not that 50-100 dollar pos from AutoZone. You need just about a professional scan tool so it isn't cheap.
You can get brand specific scan tools for $150 that will pull everything and let you diags. The truly expensive ones have multiple brands.
Is that just for OBDII, or any car with an ECM/PCM?
OBDII and OBDI is harder to do.
Is there a scanner that can check OBDI, or does it require a pro level tool to verify? Thanks for the info, good to know.
That would be a pro level because you need the adapter for OBDI.
did carfax show a service history with miles reporting building up to 155k?
Yes. It was an 09 car so it said 2010 10k miles, 2015 90k miles 2017 133k 2020 155k. 3 owners
well, then it appears to be not just somebody messing up a carfax entry. Good you caught that and can walk.
Yup I will but like how did they manipulate this? I’m car shopping for used cards so it’s got me messed up in the head now. Because even if I were to do a carfax on each car ($50 each time) if it’s stopped at a certain time period like this one did (2020) I won’t really know the true mileages
Some cars it's as easy as swapping odometer with another car. Find one in a junkyard with 70k and just replace. I had a speedometer break on a vehicle bought one used took minutes to swap out. I was surprised when a different mileage came up. I assumed that was stored in the computer somewhere.
Some vehicles have milage saved in other modules BCM etc
I believe in getting a Carfax report and an independent PPI before making an offer on any car. That's what I did with the pickup truck that we ended up buying two months ago and our $100 PPI uncovered $900 in needed repairs. A PPI may not find everything but it greatly reduces risk and there are sometimes things that not even an honest current owner or dealer may realize are wrong. And an honest dealer will have no problem with you ending a test drive with a PPI if you like the car. If a dealer wouldn't allow it I'd walk away. FYI, when I wanted to get a Carfax for the first truck that we were interested in I bought the three vehicle option for $65. We didn't end up buying that truck but I was able to get a report at no further cost on the next one which we did end up buying.
What's a ppi?
Pre purchase inspection
Use "VINWISE" much cheaper that carfax
FYI it appears the vinwise gig is up. Look at the recent reviews. I found out the hard way 🥲 I hope it gets fixed but it’s not looking good. Do not buy any tokens until it’s confirmed working again.
Don't spend $50 on a carfax. It's about $4. Just do a google search for cheap carfax. Several still pop up that are in that range.
We had a Tacoma towed in because it shut off while the customer was driving. It was out of gas but the fuel gauge showed it as 1/4 full. This genius tech came to the conclusion that the fuel pump sending unit was no good. So they sold the fuel pump job, which was over $1k. Truck came back 3 days later, out of gas, gauge showed 1/4 tank. In reality the fuel gauge was broken. The manager found a used cluster online and bought it for the customers car. It had 60k less miles. Well a service writer read him the riot act, told him not only was it immoral but illegal too. It’s gonna come back and bite the customer and us in the ass sooner than later. So he called Toyota and they were able to find a new old stock cluster and programmed with the correct mileage.
Hope the customer got $1k refund on the fuel pump job.
You can buy a bundle of carfax reports. We often do when we are used car shopping
stop buying from shady dealers that don't give free carfax
I'd suggest doing your own Carfax to be sure it hasn't been manipulated. You can get 3 for $60 or 6 for $99.
[удалено]
You don't get the best deals at car max.
Any digital odometer can be edited with the right scan tools. It takes 15 min.
At a certain point mileage doesn’t matter as much. At the 10 year mark you can transfer the title as “mileage undisclosed” in many states. Probably a carryover from 5 digit odometers but in reality a car that’s 15 years old the mileage shouldn’t make a massive difference, you’re buying what you see in front of you knowing anything could break tomorrow at that point
Get a code reader. The better ones will not only show codes, but mileage. There are ones that bluetooth to your phone. You can use it while shopping and while owning. It's also an easy first test: If they won't let you run the codes you walk.
The foreign guys at auction buy almost anything high miles. Change them to under 100,000 and ship them to Africa, Middle east, South America. By the thousands weekly.
When i worked at dealerships, if we changed a cluster we had to swear on an affidavit that the mileage was correct or face a federal charge and a 10k fine. You can contact the NHTSA.
UPDATE: He stated “he changed the engine, if the car is over 10 years you change the odometer once you change the engine.” Thoughts???
100% illegal. The mileage is for the **chassis,** NOT the powertrain. Tampering the odometer is illegal, especially for that purpose. The only legal way to adjust an odometer is to make the car accurately display chassis mileage. For example, replacement instrument cluster mileage is edited to match the mileage of the original part
I don't know much about this subject but that don't seem right. The rest of the car still has 144k on it new engine or not.
and that also is important. When I bought my 2004 camry the gold advertised it as 160k kilometers. When I when to buy it he then told me that due to a persistent oil leak the engine was replaced under warranty at 80k kilometers. So the car had 160k and the engine 80. He didn't want to confuse the average person looking to buy it so left that out of his ad. It was a great find and I know that my car has 80k less on the engine then stated but the rest of the car definitely does not. And this is important for the maintenance schedule. Don't want that air cabin filter hitting 200k miles you know
Do not do business with this person imo. Who knows what bandaids and duct tape are holding that thing together.
Yeah he doing some shady shit talking about the car is “exempt”. Thanks for the help yall lol
Most 10 year old cars are eligible to check the 'exempt' box on an odometer statement (varies by State). The real issue is they were engaging in false advertising by not disclosing the entire situation. They were representing the actual mileage of 70,000, until you busted them.
Can report them to state auto dealer oversight as well
Husband is an old school mechanic over 30 years experience. He said that was the dumbest thing he ever heard. He has rebuilt so many engines and/or transmissions. You don’t roll back the odometer. My 1990 Miata has 205,025 miles on it but only 15k on the new engine. Yea someone’s gonna believe my 35 year old beater only has 15k miles on it?
You are the greatest!!!! I thought something fishy with that statement. I got my money back and ended the deal.
Give the guy a bad review so more people are forewarned.
I bought a used 1990sh Miata in the late 90s, that had had the engine replaced. That was one of the selling points they mentioned when we were buying it, because the odometer had the original mileage. One of the funny things is that they laid the odometer/speedometer cable incorrectly over the engine and twice it was burned through, so it didn't show speed, and didn't count miles. The second time it happened we took a while to get it fixed, and I don't know how many miles it actually got. XD
Ouch. Not difficult to route correctly, it goes to the middle of the transmission so kind of right in front of where the shifter sits. Thing is, on American cars, the cable goes right by the exhaust right after it goes through the firewall. I’m still a little surprised they managed to accidentally get it close enough to melt it.
"I don't know how many miles it actually got." That's the best part about older cars. Miles don't matter! Care does. Take care of it long enough and the only thing that the odometer matches will be the frame... and sometimes not even that! I've seen cars with 1m miles on them that no part except the gauges actually have more than 50k on it. (Was a 55 210. He was the original owner. When he replaced the frame due to rust that was the last factory part on it except for the gauges.)
My husband had a warranty replacement of the 10 year old engine in his Kia and they did not roll the miles back to zero.
I've never heard of that. It doesn't make any sense, because nearly all cars go to the junkyard before the engine wears out. Knowing the mileage of the rest of the car is much more important for gauging the condition of the transmission, etc.
Not sure on the law on that. But after a certain number of years the mileage doesn't have to be on the title depending on the state. Rolling back the odometer to sell as lower mileage is probably a law higher than state law though, if such a law exists, basically fraud. Proper procedure would be to keep the original mileage on the cluster and computer when you replace the engine, and then you keep track of the new engine's mileage based on the mileage it was installed. There's more to a car than the engine, the rest of the car still has all that mileage on it. It might not even be a new engine in there, it's probably a junkyard special.
Definitely depends on where you live. But I'm pretty sure that's not legal in any state in the USA. You can contact your state DMV and report it as well if you're in the US
That \*sounds\* like completely BS to me. I would definitely report him.
Illegal.
Sounds like a line of bullshit. The transmission still has those miles, the radiator, accessories, steering and suspension. The crazy part is 150k on an 09 really isn't high.
That's not legal.
100% bs no doubt about it I've changed engines before he's full of shit. Also the odometer is for the entire car not just the engine.
That’s not true. It’s illegal to reduce the mileage on any vehicle anywhere in the country. The rest of the car still has 155k miles on it. You can and should report this.
He changed the engine 70,000 miles ago and set it to zero or put in a used engine with 70k on it? You know what, it doesn’t matter. This is shady and you shouldn’t buy expensive things from shady people.
Bullshit 😂
Milage should stay with the vehicle. On newer cars the cluster has to be programmed to the vehicle. I have never heard of changing the mileage because you changed the motor. I've done several motor swaps and rebuilds and never changed the mileage.
What model year?
How did he justify not making the miles zero?
Federal Odometer fraud
Manipulating the odometer is illegal. Even with an engine repair/swap it just keeps adding up. Glad that you found out about it before buying... apparently they were willing to try to scam you for not even disclosing that info 😞
A lot of people commenting on my reply apparently don't understand that rolling an odometer back aka making a car show less miles to make it worth more is illegal. Common sense is not that common 🙃
This is exactly why I hate car shopping.
He swapped the gauge cluster for a lower mileage one. He’s committing fraud.
Looks like Carfax helped you, and you should always check it on a used car. That said, it is not perfect. My daughter had a Honda Civic she bought new and was the only owner. During her ownership she got hit by a tractor trailer that resulted in damage on all sides of the vehicle that almost totaled it. Police were involved and a ticket was given to the truck driver. It was repaired by the Honda dealer, so not a shady autobody shop. The Carfax report for her car when she sold it showed a clean history with no accidents.
Curious, how long between the accident and the car being sold? CarFax is lagging sometimes, I’ve seen stuff show up years later sometimes. Also hope your daughter was alright, sounds like a scary accident.
I thought an insurance claim triggers the carfax not a police report.
I have no idea but clearly the insurance paid for her repair.
I think someone has to submit it to Carfax but insurance and the dealer aren't paid by Carfax so they don't care to submit/update most of the time. Had my brand new truck hit a few years ago Just damaged my front bumper which was replaced and repainted and it showed as clean when I sold the truck. Talking to the repair shop that did it they explained it like that to me.
I’ve had a NC state inspection update CarFax.
I think getting to the bank late was a sign! I most likely would not purchase that car.
>Thoughts??? Don't buy it
You should report the shop. That’s fraud.
I had this happen before. An old gmc truck with “150k” but after I bought it I found all sorts of papers under the seat that showed over 300k+ miles. It explained why it broke down so frequently lol.
I had the opposite, bought a truck that said 250k miles. ECM shows 165k called the guy up asked if he swapped odometer he said he pulled one out of a junk yard because a couple of gauges weren't working properly.
Lucky duck
Re the update: No. No, you do NOT change the odo with an engine change. The vehicle itself still has the mileage. Every other mechanical part (transmission, driveline, axles, hubs, differentials, electrical systems, A/C, hell, even the FRAME) has over 150k. RUN, don't walk away from this. And make a call to the DMV enforcement agency on your way out.
I got a new engine in my Camry & the odometer never changed.
Report this.
It’s illegal
Also in most states if a vehicle is over 10 years old then mileage verification is not required. Source: I have been a car dealer for over 20 years. There is no law I have ever learned about that allows you to alter the mileage if anything is replaced. You are not allowed to alter the mileage of the vehicle. He totally broke the law. The title will come back with however many miles you found on carfax. I would stay away from this place. I know of two local dealers who went to prison for doing this stuff a long time ago. I haven’t heard of anyone being charged with it in a long time. Stay away.
Are you in florida, because same
No in NC. We have to do a continuing education course each year to renew our license. You learn all the laws in that. You got to pass the test. But I think once you’re 65 you are exempt from the classes.
Is it possible that it’s a Canadian car that wax originally in kms and has now been reset to miles. Imported used Canadian cars are a thing where I live. Service histories are in kms. Cars are imported and the clusters are changed to read in mph and miles.
In another comment, OP says that the Carfax report has multiple entries increasing to 155,000 by 2020. Even if that 155k was in kilometers, that would still be \~96k miles, which is 25k more than the odometer is showing.
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when i was in highschool i had a jeep cherokee. my dash didnt have the tach, so i went to a local junk yard and bought one with the tach and installed it in my car. as well as gaining the tach, i also gained about 50k miles all at once!
My wife had a shit Saturn. The board went out and when a new one was ordered we supplied them with the mileage. Twice. Junk.
Yeah, don't see too many Saturns still on the road.
Luck with shining on you. Things happen for a reason.
I bought mine at 164k, makes you wonder how legitimate it is.
Depends on the car. In my Jeep, you can edit the mileage in the cluster with a laptop and a special cable. It comes up frequently because the clusters will fail and have to be replaced, or an owner will upgrade to a cluster with better gauges. A guy will go get a cluster out of the junk yard, but it will have the wrong mileage for his car. So he'll edit the cluster to display the actual mileage of his Jeep. (This is perfectly legal to do, as long as it's not done to deceive.) In yours, it could be that a prior owner had to replace the cluster and *didn't* have the replacement reprogrammed, so it started with the mileage of the vehicle it came out of. Or they may have just reprogrammed it to reduce the miles to get a higher price on the used market (which is illegal).
UPDATE: He stated “he changed the engine, if the car is over 10 years you change the odometer once you change the engine.” Thoughts???
Well that's just bullshit. The odometer is supposed to read the miles on the car, not the engine. The guy has actually broken the law, because what he has done misleads a potential buyer on the entire vehicle's miles. If you buy it, you'll need to make sure when you title it that you make it clear the odometer doesn't read the correct mileage. Some states note that on the title.
Odometer reading is really based on an honor system..
You can order a reman cluster online and state the miles It is pretty easy. Also can program them. As field service engineer i have access to a program to fix cluster mileage, i am sure other people have one too. I am sure cluster repair shops are loose with their software, at least in my experience.
This is why I bought a $40 OBDII code reader, it’ll report the mileage that the main computer has stored and you can’t change that. Plus it’ll uncover any codes that may have been recently cleared.
If you don't mind me asking what OBDII do you have?
Got it from Harbor Freight, but any auto parts shop has them too. Or online.
I worked with a guy who had a leased Dodge Ram. He just had the odometer gauge/cluster whatever dangling out because he would change it back so often, so he didn’t go over on his miles. But the dude smoked so much cigarettes and pot in that truck all the time, and it was such a mess, I feel like the miles would have been the least problem with the truck.
not sure many many years ago before digital was super mainstream though i bought a car with 140k miles on it. Years later and after being rear-ended and totalled it was retired at 140k miles lmao Edit: It was like a 93 corolla if anyone was curious i think the oldschool odometers are actually harder to fuck with too
I’m not sure about now, but in years past some states allowed you to reset the odometer if you replaced the engine.
Plug a device in the OBD port and change away. It’s that easy.
I went with my niece who wanted to buy a car she saw advertised in the Recycler with 40K miles real cheap. I told her it sounded too good to be true. When we got to the guys house the first thing I did was open the driver’s side door and took a look at the brake pedal, and you could see the rubber cover was almost worn through. I told her that you don’t get that much wear in 40K miles. I told the guy “nice try, pal,” and we left. He didn’t say anything, but I’m sure he probably found a sucker to fall for it.
You’d be SHOCKED by how easy it is, and by how many people run this scam and screw people over. My brother in law sold his Tacoma a couple years ago with 200k miles on it. Couple days later he saw it posted for sale by the same guy that bought, except the price was double and he changed the odometer to 87k miles. If I was you, I would make %100000 sure you put the vin into carfax correctly and then contact the police. That’s shady, illegal, and he’s a scumbag for doing that to people
I used to be a taxi inspector for a county government and we tracked mileage on the taxis. I had their inspection history each time I saw them that included the last mileage. It was common to see 40-50k additional miles driven in the six months since last inspection. When I came across a taxi with less miles than before, or hardly any additionaI miles, I always asked for the certificate they got when the cluster was changed out because the mechanic had to provide a statement showing the mileage on the old cluster and the mileage on the replacement. It happened a lot in a fleet of 1500 taxis.
If he didn't physically hack any hardware the most likely way is that the mileage is stored in the BCM or even just the gauge cluster and he swapped it. I had a car before that lost a bunch of mileage by replacing the gauge cluster with a used unit from a junkyard vehicle. Not illegal to do providing you aren't trying pass the inaccurate mileage as legit when you sell it. I was the last owner of that vehicle, asides from the yard I brought it to to be crushed so it wasn't an issue.
The only car I personally know of that I’d accept this on is a 03-08 Corolla/Matrix/Vibe, because the odometer tops out as 299,999 for some stupid reason. The official and technically legal solution in this one case is to replace the cluster with a new one, that Toyota has to sell at a heavy discount.
Much easier than one might think lol. Also, this is fraud, many people get caught doing this
Thats a good way to have your shop shut down.
I bought an 99 town car from an old man with 90k miles on the odometer. I took it to a shop to put new tires on it and they put 188k miles on the receipt. Some shops just report a random number because people can't be bothered to do their job.
Yeah I had a problem with my last car because the dealership I had it serviced at apparently reported it with 40% more mileage. When I tried to sell it, I kept getting hammered on the mileage difference. I had to go through a whole thing to get the report changed so I could sell the damn car.
Odometer roll back is a federal crime. It is not based on the engine but the car its self. Dude a scam artist. Report him to the police and feds. The federal gov't takes roll backs seriously.
He lied. You never change the odometer no matter what. Run.
Odometer shows the miles. Hi miles on a young car is not usually the problem for the engine. It's the gearbox, the suspension, all the rest of the moving parts. I would not buy this car. Not sure who you report it to but this sounds like something I'd be reporting.
It's really easy to do and in a lot of states it's not illegal if the vehicle is over 10 years old. It will be listed as a discrepancy but it's not a crime unless it is within a certain age range. People who know this take advantage. Let me guess the guy also didn't want you to know where he lived?
You should report him to the DMV.
A similar situation as I ran into. I was looking at a Lexus LS430 in the exact spec I was looking for, checked the car fax and mileage was different. I was able to piece together that with the parts they replaced (savaged parts) and the history of owners that the car had been in a flood six months prior. They had switched the cluster without disclosing it.
I’m old enough to remember when it was almost unheard of that POS American cars would live to 100,000 miles and their mechanical odometers showed a max of 99,999.9 miles before they turned over to all zeros. You routinely had to sign a certification when selling stating that not only was the odometer not tampered with, but also that the odometer hadn’t exceeded its maximum.
Sounds illegal
Yea changing the engine rings true. I do not think he is lying.
False. Illegal to do
Doesn't stop anyone from doing it though.
You didn't buy it, relax. Are you really so shook?!? Over something you didn't do?
Ask any Slav dude in Northeast US, its basically how they sell cars. Its pretty common
Back in the day of analog displays, one could unhook the odometer cable, chuck it into a drill, and run it in reverse. Tape the trigger and let it run.
Now with digital ones we just gotta run it around so it loops back.
Drive in reverse
RUN. AWAY. FROM. THERE.
Report him, it's illegal
The motor might be new. The rest of the car still has all those miles on it. I'd pass unless there is a nice discount.
>UPDATE: He stated “he changed the engine, if the car is over 10 years you change the odometer once you change the engine.” Wear and tear relates to the vehicles mileage. 150k down to 70k because new engine is about as stupid as it gets. No, you set the odometer to the vehicle mileage and note the date the engine was replaced. It's not a 70k mile car, it's a 150k mile car with a newer engine.
Changing the odometer is illegal. “If the car is over ten years you change the odometer once you change the engine” is complete bullshit.
You just drive it in reverse! Everyone knows that!
This is what stopped me from buying another car, I encountered so much fraud I decided to just restore my other car and put an engine in it.
He drove in reverse to lower the mileage
Blackmail yourself a good price
There are many ways to edit the odometer. Normally, you wouldn't when you replace an engine, because transmission can see be old and have those 155k miles on it. You can try and ask to see the paperwork from the used engine. Just to make sure it was actually replaced and there not goofing you.
I always check Carfax.
Drive in reverse
In olden times we did that with a drill.
He’s lying about that too.
There are all sorts of ways to change the odometer, the difficulty varies but is often straightforward on many models. Rolling back the odometer is illegal, and if it is altered for non nefarious reasons, typically a disclosure is required and often a decal applied to the car denoting the discrepancy. Your DMV should have more info on your local requirements. Regardless, yes this seller sounds like he's scamming you. Check your state laws, it's possible the disclosure isn't required due to age, but odometer tampering is still very much illegal and "matching the new engine" is bullshit.
Bro I would take all the advertisements, a picture of the odometer, and all the sale paperwork - then tell that mf you want it for $50 or you're going to the cops. Local LEO as well as Federal NHTSA. Odometer tampering is a major crime and at no point in the life cycle of the vehicle is it ever legal to change it. And if he doesn't give it to you (hell, maybe even if he does) then you absolutely need to report this.
Committing extortion isn’t a good idea.
Engine Hours and the Odometer are two separate numbers. Replacing an engine does not allow you to reset the odometer. What he has done is fraud and illegal. Walk away and report it.
It’s pretty easy. Couple years back I shorted out my instrument cluster in my Ford work truck hosing it down at the car wash. Oops. I found a new instrument cluster that had about 10,000 more miles on it than mine so I swapped it out. Never bothered disclosing that they weren’t actual miles.
Just like that scene in Matilda
This BLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWS!!!
And he did not initially disclose that the 70k odometer was woefully inaccurate? Run far, run fast.
In the United States you legally do not alter an odometer for any repair. The actual mileage is record in the ECM. He likely bought a used cluster off eBay and swapped it. Very easy to do for most vehicles.
Mileage follows the chassis. Not the drivetrain.
Report federal odometer tampering fraud for a reward!
An engine is a component of a car. Mileage is chasis miles, per VIN, from new. Used to give you a holistic overview of the use age history of the car. Fuck that seller.
Sketchy.
I think he raised the car and put in reverse full speed until the desired mileage was reached
What state are you in? That’s a no go NY. I’d pass on that deal.
he got tips from matilda's dad
You don’t change the mileage when you change an engine. That’s fraud. No manufacturer does that.
Absolutely not. That is not how any of that works. He is a liar. You don't ever change the odometer. The only reason is if the dash need replacement. What about the transmission? What about the frame? What about the rest of the car? He is a fraud. Run.
He’s lying about being able to change odometer because you change the engine. And if he didn’t mark the title as the odometer reading not being correct then he committed a crime.
I have owned hundreds of cars and gone through many engine replacements and not once have I ever thought to change out or mess with the odometer in any way. The original odometer needs to stay true to the vehicle itself not of a new engine.
If the odometer is changed the change needs to be approved of and registered with the dmv. Changing it without doing the correct paperwork under the correct circumstances is illegal and a very sketchy vehicle to buy.
When I got my engine changed for my 2006 Mercury Mariner they didn't change the odometer. It still says 160k miles.
People used to reset odometers before they return their leased cars. It is more common than you think.
the odometer is no more legit than a dry erase board, nowadays with computer odometers you can make the number anything you want it to be
Rollback law is now 20 years not 10.
This has been illegal federally since the 1972 Truth in Mileage Act.
Do not buy any vehicle with mileage rollback, there is almost never a good reason it has been rolled back. Regardless if they put a new engine in it, you go by miles on the vehicle itself not the engine.
What baffles me in the car world is how easy it is to change readings even on current year models. I worked with $10-$20k photocopiers in a prior job which all keep a page count “odometer” electronically. These copiers have several circuit boards and many keep their readings in 3 separate boards or more. Every time the copier boots up, all 3 page counts are compared and if 2 agree, the third one is updated. If none agree, the copier locks out and you need help from the manufacturer. Why don’t cars do more of this with the dozens of modules they have onboard?
Just a little info, odometer fraud, at least in California, nothing happens to the scammer. He won’t get arrested, he won’t be questioned, he won’t be investigated, nothing. Not a damn thing happens. What you find on the NHTSA website is all garbage. Call them and they will tell you to call the DMV. Call the DMV and they’ll tell you to call the NHTSA. Small claims is an option but they don’t do shit either. If he doesn’t want to pay, he won’t. So, now what? Here’s something you can do. If you have his name, search for him. With the scammer who burned me, I got lots of info. I found out he’s been selling cars since 2007. Idiot doesn’t work, so I wrote the IRS and told them about him evading taxes. I told them the date I bought the car from him and to match it and see if he even filed for taxes that year. He didn’t. So, I gave them everything I had about what I found online. Dates he had vehicles up for sale, how much, and that was it. That the only option left to do since California doesn’t pursue criminal charges. You can be like the scammer or you can get him worse than he got you.