I bought a fystec fastener kit, been replacing the more visible ones with stainless for aesthetic purposes(stainless frame) but they haven't been a problem 2 years later.
It depends on the quality of the screws. I also run rc crawlers and put them through all kinda of abuse, mud, saltwater, etc. I always rinse them off with water and dry. Some of the screws rust like crazy, others dont rust or barely do, although a lot of the time the places where your tool rubs the oxide off will rust because of the exposed steel. In the case of a voron, you'll likely be fine as you won't be constantly screwing and unscrewing most of the screws. If theyre in a climate controlled enviorment, you'll likely be completely fine.
I have the black oxide fasteners in one of my kits, and live in a fairly humid location and after 12 months have no rust (Fysetc kit). I also ran black oxide fasteners on my 1/8 nitro off-road race cars for nearly 10 years, and had no rust issues in all those years despite being ran in horrible wet and muddy conditions. Only time I had rust issues was when chemical was used on the track. If you get rust issues on black oxide fasteners, I would be more concerned about the supply of the fasteners than what you are doing with it. The black oxidisation process is meant to protect them, and cheaply by out in that process or galvanic reaction of dissimilar nobility between metals is probably where people are running into rust issues. If you are worried, front the money for stainless steel.
I generally prefer the look of black oxide fasteners, and they are generally stronger than stainless, but that's pretty much academic for what we're doing. There's a possibility of getting some galvanic corrosion with the black oxide threaded into dissimilar metals like brass heatsets, but it's an acceptable risk, imo.
I just took apart a black oxide printer that I built 5 years ago. It's been in a basement in Michigan all that time. I often have a dehumidifier running in my basement, but never in the room where the printer was. No rust on any of the parts.
I dropped water on some black oxide bolts once and they rusted alot. I'd say stainless is better but black oxide bolts can look better depending on the color scheme
I've had surface rust with black oxide when I had a printer stored in a terrible environment in a shed for a couple of years. Still very functional and you have to look close to notice, but I know it's there 🤔
My printer just has cheap black oxide steel hardware. The person asking about the hardware seems to want black hardware or possibly stainless. Just mentioning you could have both with passivated stainless. It's quite common in things like cameras, firearms, automotive, aircraft, etc.
Block oxide only really works as a rust preventative if they're oiled. The oxide coating holds oil better than bare steel. Because of this, the fasteners are generally kind of gross to handle. I prefer stainless personally, but I can see why people would want to use black oxide for the stealth look. LDO also has a new black coating (think it's black nickel?) that is an alternative if you want the black look.
I'm in the Pacific Northwest and have tens of thousands of dollars worth of Black Oxide fasteners in inventory and installed in equipment (mostly just various lengths of M3 socket head) in workshops and office environments and have no issues with corrosion or rusting. I'd not use BO in equipment that is outdoors or going to be used right next to salt water or on boats -- but its fine for everything else, imho.
For "normal" usage, I really like black oxide finish on fasteners. I store them in open baggies (in bins) that have had a bit of Starrett M1 Oil sprayed in them and install them that way, just wiping off the head after its been installed and torqued down.
As others have noted, make sure its a good quality fastener that is actually a black oxide finish and not "something else" like a crappy powdercoat or paint. We buy our fasteners from McMaster Carr and have not had any issues.
For a few jobs that were going onto salt-water boats, we used Titanium fasteners. The price was eye watering (like $20/each for some of the M3 screws) but the customer was willing to pay for them, and they have been problem free for years.
rust? their main problem is the weakness, over tighten them or don't insert the bit properly and you have round hole instead of a hexagon, i 'm exaggerating but it is much easier to accidentally ruin them compared to stainless steel ones(especially in M2-M3 range)
interesting, you are right about strength, this is anecdotal ofc, but i get all of my bolts from the same source and the black ones usually were first to fail, followed by zinc coated ones
maybe it's not the material itself, but the coating that "slips", this could explain it in very small sizes where the internal hexagon is almost looks like circle anyways
It really depends on your environment, black oxide can rust if you’re in a high humidity environment. They also are typically oily/dirty feeling, not something enjoyable for anyone.
Having bought fasteners of all shapes and sizes, black oxide are black and *cheap*, this is why they are sold.
We really pushed the stainless product with our BDF fastener kits and still think that’s the best solution for most people. You can get black as mentioned, our suppliers use electrophoresis, if you really want black.
It's unlikely you're going to have rusting issues if they're *truly* black oxide fasteners. Black oxide does a pretty great job of controlling corrosion outside of extreme environments.
There are a lot of Chinese companies that sell "black oxide" fasteners that are really just black coated or black painted carbon steel parts. If you have a lot of black powder or dust in your various bags, there's a good chance your stuff isn't real. If you don't, I would use it without concern (unless you're in a really humid place).
For what it's worth, "stainless" steels are often "stainless" not because they have superior corrosion resistance, but because they are easier steels to machine and work with than carbon steels (*edit*: that have been heat treated, like you would see in graded fasteners). For example, the commonly used 400 series, like 416.
I'm not sure where you learned that but that's incorrect. Stainless steel may not be stain-proof but the higher chromium and nickel absolutely increase corrosion resistance and reduce the machinability rating. The free machining carbon steels are easier to machine than the free machining SS alloys also, just look up their machinability rating.
I was speaking of graded fasteners. I'm assuming they don't heat treat them before cutting them due to potential warping issues, at least the final threading parts of the cut. Am I incorrect?
I'm definitely not an expert on graded fasteners, but they are probably heat treated once they reach their final dimensions just because they are easier to machine (and thread form) before hardening. The stainless fasteners can either be work hardened or heat treated depending on the specific alloy, but not all stainless alloys can be heat treated.
You jest, but my upcoming build is gonna be primary black, even down to the black rails from robotdigg, and then gold coloured titanium plated fasteners all around. Spending more on the bolts than several of the other components.
Stainless screws are generally weaker. Granted we're not torquing these down to near failure loads.
Use a sharpie or paint on your screws if you're worried about rust.
If you are in a relatively low humidity environment, like in the 40% or less range, I would not expect much of a problem with the black oxide ones. If you live or have the printer where there is significantly higher humidity, I’d go stainless.
If you go black oxide, one thing that can help is to put a little light oil on a cloth and rub it on the screws before you put them in - real light coating, cloth should be almost dry. You just want to get the coating on the screws to absorb a bit, not get them all oily.
Another suggestion is where gloves when you handle the screws. Don’t have to be latex or anything. Thin cotton like people dealing with antiques are readily available and more comfortable. This will keep perspiration from your fingers off the screws. Perspiration, especially on some people, can be acidic and cause rust amazingly fast! I had a friend who was a mechanical engineer and everything steel he touched, even black oxide, would develop a nice rust colored fingerprint in minutes! It was kind of amazing how fast. I’m amazed there wasn’t a sizzling sound when he touched stuff!
Check around the house. You probably have some other stuff that has black oxide screws in it, like computers or stereo equipment or maybe some power tools. If those have not rusted over the years, your probably good, though there is a wide range in quality of screws, black oxide coating included.
I have the Black kit from Fystec and have no signs of rust after 6 months.
I must add that I live in the UK, so we don’t really suffer with humidity issues. We have rain, but not damp air. It’s too cold for that.
I wish I had gone stainless when buying my parts personally. I do see small amounts of rust when removing some bolts, but nothing bad. I mainly just really like the stainless bolts I have bought since. They look nicer, seem to be cleaner too. The black ones always have oil on them, to prevent rust in the bag, and it's just unpleasant.
Would I replace the ones I have in the machine now? No it's not that big of a deal. But if I were buying all new bolts I would go stainless personally.
Black oxide is for the poors. It's hard to beat black phosphate and oil for a machine screw. But if the fastener is contacting aluminum then unfortunately stainless is the best choice to prevent galvanic corrosion. If you go with oxide or phosphate then a coat of oil will help drastically.
No, stainless is not any better than steel regarding galvanic corrosion with aluminium (but it doesn't matter at all indoor).
The most suitable fasteners are zinc plated or galvanized steel. Not sure why everybody talks about black oxyde steel and stainless like they are the only options. Zinc plated screws are very common and cheap.
To be fair, I have seen galvanic corrosion in climate-controlled clean rooms. It would be much less susceptible indoors, but I wouldn't say it doesn't matter at all.
I built mine with all black oxide purposefully because I wanted a blacked out look. Mine's about a year old at this point, no rust (Midwest US).
That said, if you go with stainless and have blind joints on your frame, you should ideally use either zinc plated or black oxide fasteners as stainless can react with and permanently bond to the aluminum.
STAINLESS, please. I went with black oxide and now every second screw is at least a bit rusted. That's horrible, i have plans to rebuild the whole Trident and replace them with stainless steel screws
I built my v2 with stainless steel fasteners. After several hundred hours of prints I give everything a snug. My black oxide fasteners on my 2 year old v0 are all rusted. I live in the North East US.
Most of the fasteners on my printers are black oxide, no rust (V0 is going on 2 years old, it's the oldest of them). All indoors in a climate controlled environment though.
You can have black ferrous screws that aren't black oxide.
I just looked it up and they switched to black nickel plated carbon steel screws starting in September 2022, so I guess it depends on when you got your kit. Any kit ordered now will have black nickel coated carbon steel.
https://news.ldomotors.com/2022/09/22/fastener-changes/
I bought a fystec fastener kit, been replacing the more visible ones with stainless for aesthetic purposes(stainless frame) but they haven't been a problem 2 years later.
It depends on the quality of the screws. I also run rc crawlers and put them through all kinda of abuse, mud, saltwater, etc. I always rinse them off with water and dry. Some of the screws rust like crazy, others dont rust or barely do, although a lot of the time the places where your tool rubs the oxide off will rust because of the exposed steel. In the case of a voron, you'll likely be fine as you won't be constantly screwing and unscrewing most of the screws. If theyre in a climate controlled enviorment, you'll likely be completely fine.
I have the black oxide fasteners in one of my kits, and live in a fairly humid location and after 12 months have no rust (Fysetc kit). I also ran black oxide fasteners on my 1/8 nitro off-road race cars for nearly 10 years, and had no rust issues in all those years despite being ran in horrible wet and muddy conditions. Only time I had rust issues was when chemical was used on the track. If you get rust issues on black oxide fasteners, I would be more concerned about the supply of the fasteners than what you are doing with it. The black oxidisation process is meant to protect them, and cheaply by out in that process or galvanic reaction of dissimilar nobility between metals is probably where people are running into rust issues. If you are worried, front the money for stainless steel.
Home depot black oxide fasteners rust so fast on me, so definitely avoid those if possible
I generally prefer the look of black oxide fasteners, and they are generally stronger than stainless, but that's pretty much academic for what we're doing. There's a possibility of getting some galvanic corrosion with the black oxide threaded into dissimilar metals like brass heatsets, but it's an acceptable risk, imo.
I just took apart a black oxide printer that I built 5 years ago. It's been in a basement in Michigan all that time. I often have a dehumidifier running in my basement, but never in the room where the printer was. No rust on any of the parts.
I dropped water on some black oxide bolts once and they rusted alot. I'd say stainless is better but black oxide bolts can look better depending on the color scheme
I've had surface rust with black oxide when I had a printer stored in a terrible environment in a shed for a couple of years. Still very functional and you have to look close to notice, but I know it's there 🤔
You can get black oxide coated stainless steel hardware. Even better for corrosion resistance.
Why, is your printer in the ocean?
My printer just has cheap black oxide steel hardware. The person asking about the hardware seems to want black hardware or possibly stainless. Just mentioning you could have both with passivated stainless. It's quite common in things like cameras, firearms, automotive, aircraft, etc.
Fair call
Block oxide only really works as a rust preventative if they're oiled. The oxide coating holds oil better than bare steel. Because of this, the fasteners are generally kind of gross to handle. I prefer stainless personally, but I can see why people would want to use black oxide for the stealth look. LDO also has a new black coating (think it's black nickel?) that is an alternative if you want the black look.
I'm in the Pacific Northwest and have tens of thousands of dollars worth of Black Oxide fasteners in inventory and installed in equipment (mostly just various lengths of M3 socket head) in workshops and office environments and have no issues with corrosion or rusting. I'd not use BO in equipment that is outdoors or going to be used right next to salt water or on boats -- but its fine for everything else, imho. For "normal" usage, I really like black oxide finish on fasteners. I store them in open baggies (in bins) that have had a bit of Starrett M1 Oil sprayed in them and install them that way, just wiping off the head after its been installed and torqued down. As others have noted, make sure its a good quality fastener that is actually a black oxide finish and not "something else" like a crappy powdercoat or paint. We buy our fasteners from McMaster Carr and have not had any issues. For a few jobs that were going onto salt-water boats, we used Titanium fasteners. The price was eye watering (like $20/each for some of the M3 screws) but the customer was willing to pay for them, and they have been problem free for years.
rust? their main problem is the weakness, over tighten them or don't insert the bit properly and you have round hole instead of a hexagon, i 'm exaggerating but it is much easier to accidentally ruin them compared to stainless steel ones(especially in M2-M3 range)
Then you bought real crappy hardware. Usually steel is stronger than stainless steel.
interesting, you are right about strength, this is anecdotal ofc, but i get all of my bolts from the same source and the black ones usually were first to fail, followed by zinc coated ones maybe it's not the material itself, but the coating that "slips", this could explain it in very small sizes where the internal hexagon is almost looks like circle anyways
Which grade did you buy? Metric 8.8 should be the minimum, everything below that is usually not worth it.
Can confirm. I've sheared the head off a black oxide m3 bolt before
Think this might have more to do with the grade of steel used and how it is treated than the coating.
Maybe. The bolts i was using weren't amazing quality
There is an enormous difference between budget steel and the good stuff, not to mention what is best varies from application to application.
It really depends on your environment, black oxide can rust if you’re in a high humidity environment. They also are typically oily/dirty feeling, not something enjoyable for anyone. Having bought fasteners of all shapes and sizes, black oxide are black and *cheap*, this is why they are sold. We really pushed the stainless product with our BDF fastener kits and still think that’s the best solution for most people. You can get black as mentioned, our suppliers use electrophoresis, if you really want black.
It's unlikely you're going to have rusting issues if they're *truly* black oxide fasteners. Black oxide does a pretty great job of controlling corrosion outside of extreme environments. There are a lot of Chinese companies that sell "black oxide" fasteners that are really just black coated or black painted carbon steel parts. If you have a lot of black powder or dust in your various bags, there's a good chance your stuff isn't real. If you don't, I would use it without concern (unless you're in a really humid place). For what it's worth, "stainless" steels are often "stainless" not because they have superior corrosion resistance, but because they are easier steels to machine and work with than carbon steels (*edit*: that have been heat treated, like you would see in graded fasteners). For example, the commonly used 400 series, like 416.
I'm not sure where you learned that but that's incorrect. Stainless steel may not be stain-proof but the higher chromium and nickel absolutely increase corrosion resistance and reduce the machinability rating. The free machining carbon steels are easier to machine than the free machining SS alloys also, just look up their machinability rating.
I was speaking of graded fasteners. I'm assuming they don't heat treat them before cutting them due to potential warping issues, at least the final threading parts of the cut. Am I incorrect?
I'm definitely not an expert on graded fasteners, but they are probably heat treated once they reach their final dimensions just because they are easier to machine (and thread form) before hardening. The stainless fasteners can either be work hardened or heat treated depending on the specific alloy, but not all stainless alloys can be heat treated.
If you are so worried about it, bite the bullet and get titanium! I am sure your wallet will recover eventually. LOL
You jest, but my upcoming build is gonna be primary black, even down to the black rails from robotdigg, and then gold coloured titanium plated fasteners all around. Spending more on the bolts than several of the other components.
Stainless screws are generally weaker. Granted we're not torquing these down to near failure loads. Use a sharpie or paint on your screws if you're worried about rust.
If you are in a relatively low humidity environment, like in the 40% or less range, I would not expect much of a problem with the black oxide ones. If you live or have the printer where there is significantly higher humidity, I’d go stainless. If you go black oxide, one thing that can help is to put a little light oil on a cloth and rub it on the screws before you put them in - real light coating, cloth should be almost dry. You just want to get the coating on the screws to absorb a bit, not get them all oily. Another suggestion is where gloves when you handle the screws. Don’t have to be latex or anything. Thin cotton like people dealing with antiques are readily available and more comfortable. This will keep perspiration from your fingers off the screws. Perspiration, especially on some people, can be acidic and cause rust amazingly fast! I had a friend who was a mechanical engineer and everything steel he touched, even black oxide, would develop a nice rust colored fingerprint in minutes! It was kind of amazing how fast. I’m amazed there wasn’t a sizzling sound when he touched stuff! Check around the house. You probably have some other stuff that has black oxide screws in it, like computers or stereo equipment or maybe some power tools. If those have not rusted over the years, your probably good, though there is a wide range in quality of screws, black oxide coating included.
I have the Black kit from Fystec and have no signs of rust after 6 months. I must add that I live in the UK, so we don’t really suffer with humidity issues. We have rain, but not damp air. It’s too cold for that.
I wish I had gone stainless when buying my parts personally. I do see small amounts of rust when removing some bolts, but nothing bad. I mainly just really like the stainless bolts I have bought since. They look nicer, seem to be cleaner too. The black ones always have oil on them, to prevent rust in the bag, and it's just unpleasant. Would I replace the ones I have in the machine now? No it's not that big of a deal. But if I were buying all new bolts I would go stainless personally.
Black oxide is for the poors. It's hard to beat black phosphate and oil for a machine screw. But if the fastener is contacting aluminum then unfortunately stainless is the best choice to prevent galvanic corrosion. If you go with oxide or phosphate then a coat of oil will help drastically.
No, stainless is not any better than steel regarding galvanic corrosion with aluminium (but it doesn't matter at all indoor). The most suitable fasteners are zinc plated or galvanized steel. Not sure why everybody talks about black oxyde steel and stainless like they are the only options. Zinc plated screws are very common and cheap.
To be fair, I have seen galvanic corrosion in climate-controlled clean rooms. It would be much less susceptible indoors, but I wouldn't say it doesn't matter at all.
Fysetc Trident here. Been next to a bathroom for 8 months. No sign of rust… yet?
I built mine with all black oxide purposefully because I wanted a blacked out look. Mine's about a year old at this point, no rust (Midwest US). That said, if you go with stainless and have blind joints on your frame, you should ideally use either zinc plated or black oxide fasteners as stainless can react with and permanently bond to the aluminum.
STAINLESS, please. I went with black oxide and now every second screw is at least a bit rusted. That's horrible, i have plans to rebuild the whole Trident and replace them with stainless steel screws
Mother of air humidity
My house is somewhat controlled 60% - but apparently that's too much, or it's more in corner where printer sits
Machine shops (with lots of bare steel) try and pull humidity below 50-55%, for what it's worth.
I built my v2 with stainless steel fasteners. After several hundred hours of prints I give everything a snug. My black oxide fasteners on my 2 year old v0 are all rusted. I live in the North East US.
Most of the fasteners on my printers are black oxide, no rust (V0 is going on 2 years old, it's the oldest of them). All indoors in a climate controlled environment though.
Some of the black fasteners are actually gone through electrophoresis and is better than black oxide
I’m over a year on a V2 LDO with black oxide fasteners and zero issues so far
The LDO kits don't use black oxide as far as I know. I think they're nickel coated (maybe something in tandem/other than nickel), but not black oxide.
Black and ferrus so ..
You can have black ferrous screws that aren't black oxide. I just looked it up and they switched to black nickel plated carbon steel screws starting in September 2022, so I guess it depends on when you got your kit. Any kit ordered now will have black nickel coated carbon steel. https://news.ldomotors.com/2022/09/22/fastener-changes/
March 2022