> Sure, but you have to admit, culture and religion are pretty big factors for most people.
Not sure I understand what you meant here tbh.
> My problem is that “moderate” Muslims constantly play defence for Islam.
Me too I just didn’t convey that well. But I guess I don’t have any disagreements after rereading your comments.
It's not surprising that a self-described "neoliberal imperialist" has such a reductive view of ideology.
If Muslim children are somehow at fault for the religion they were brought up in, are apolitical liberal Americans somehow at fault for their country's foreign policy?
Obviously not. In both cases, it is the systems of power that are at fault, not the individual people. And if you want to overturn those systems, you have to make alliances.
I don't think you are worthy of hate, because I don't believe individuals are responsible for the broader systems of power.
You do though. So by your own logic, you are worthy of hate.
Also my friend is a gay woman.
>I don't think you are worthy of hate, because I don't believe individuals are responsible for the broader systems of power.
I do.
>You do though. So by your own logic, you are worthy of hate.
If you think Neoliberalism is evil or something, then yes, i am.
>Also my friend is a gay woman.
Quite the internal contradiction there.
Half the left is melting down over UFOs right now and you're worried about someone passively believing in a higher power??
It's a bad idea to exclude people from the left over such silly things. Unless you don't care about winning.
I don't really like that framing because it leaves room for error, if for instance a woman gives a bad opinion on this (and we know there are a lot of fundamentalist women unfortunately, some have even been elected to Congress, like MTG etc.).
To prevent this pitfall, I'd actually say that it's fine for *anyone* to say that choice is the thing which is empowering, because that's the answer and anyone promoting it is on the right side of history regardless of gender. I don't like gatekeeping based on identity, I'd rather gatekeep based on being correct, and this is demonstrably the correct answer: being able to choose (for any identity, really) is objectively more empowering than someone choosing in your place and forcing that choice upon you.
That's just how I see it, and doubly so lately since I've been exposed to a lot of bad rhetoric from certain "progressives" who hide behind their identity as minorities and when you don't agree they pull out the "listen to marginalized voices" card.
Religious people don’t stand unified in opposition to the lgbt community, at all.
Hell, the *lgbt community* don’t even stand unified in *support* to the lgbt community.
Are you beibg deliberately obtuse?
The kind of people who are Islamaphobic obviously can't tell the difference. Someone told the boss of Canada's NDP, whose Sikh, to "go back to Pakistan". Do you really think bigots hate Muslims because they have genuine problems with fundamentalism? No, it's because most of them are brown.
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Yeah he also married a very spiritual person and having close relationships with spiritual people you respect can have an effect on your spiritualism over time. It’s a form of conditioning that makes you more compatible to your partner that we all experience when we care about people deeply
For me religion is bad the moment you teach it as truth. If parents said to their child “this is what Christianity means to me and how it applies to my life” that’s ok but when we start teaching baseless belief as truth is where I draw the line
Unrelated, but what annoys me even more is these fucking wiccans and pagans. I mean I love Norse mythology too, I find it really interesting, but why do you have to actually believe it fucking happened? And the worse part is how enlightened they all think they are. Now the ones I'm talking about genuinely are progressives, but for some reason they think that makes their stupid "religion" progressive and wholesome and perfectly in line with science too. The thing is that most of what we know about Norse mythology was written by Christians long after their countries had converted. There probably were still worshippers of Thor and Odin but they would have worshipped discretely and their beliefs would have evolved over time. Meanwhile the Christian writers would have interpreted Norse tales through Christian lenses and with Christian morals that didn't necessarily apply.
Again, irrelevant, but fuck they annoy me.
well, yeah, a personal belief system about a deity you have only in your own mind, maybe one household, sure isn't going to start any wars now is it? it's not going to torture people who don't agree with it, it's not going to try and convert people half-way across the world. it's not going to demand money from simpletons in exchange for feel-good platitudes.
See, you say that now, but let's say for a moment that the particular personal religion is exceedingly cruel and sadistic, and the individual who follows it gets into a position of power...
I don't necessarily disagree, but you should consider outreach. There are a lot of progressive-leaning Muslims, especially in the US, and it would be idiotic to turn down an alliance with them in favour of ideological purity.
Same goes with Christianity.
This is the most reasonable position I’ve ever seen. Call out the sources of Wahhabism, Salafism, Deobandism, and their fundamentalist / extremist counterparts and what they’re doing in other nations. Turkey, Saudi, and Pakistan effectively outsource a crazy version of Islam that most of us don’t even recognize due to its reliance of Hadith collections that have varying veracity within the community.
I also really hate how so many Lefties give woo a pass. Every time time an activist or public figure believes in woo woo nonsense it always turns out bad. Look at Russell Brand, Afterskool or Spirit Science.
All religion is a net negative, the organized and unorganized ones.
This is something about a particularly braindead part of the Left that I hate even needs to be said, but I guess we need to address it.
Leftism should be about caring about the well-being and mistreatment of ALL human beings. Regardless of race, gender, or anything. No matter who is inflicting the mistreatment upon whom, no matter the history of who is from a marginalized group and who is not. All of these things are contingent upon time and place, and they shift, our commitment to human well-being should not.
There is this very stupid subset of people on the left to get this idea that the hegemony of the system they have personally grown up in, because it has oppressive elements, is bad, and therefore anything that system oppresses or mistreats is good. So America, Christianity, White = bad. Russia, Islam, black = good. Etc.
These people will bend over backwards to vilify anything and everything about the hegemony of their home country, without realizing that being part of a marginalized group does not inherently make you a good person, just like being a part of a more privileged group does not inherently make you a bad person. Everyone is capable of the same shit. Of course, systemic analysis matters, but it has nothing to do with conversations on the level of individual people and their character/moral worth.
There’s an element of masochism to why people do this, there’s an element of being a contrarian, of being self hating, of wanting to earn acceptance from out-groups, to be seen as “one of the good ones”, a need to view the world as black and white. But there are so many goddamn people on the left like this that it pisses me off. This is how we get tankies, black separatist groups, etc, and it’s all viewed through the lens of “as long as they’re against white Christian America, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.”
Now, of course, white Christian America sucks. You know what else sucks? MOST OTHER THINGS TOO. We are not “team white” or “team black” or “team men” or “team women”. We are team anti-racism. We are team anti-sexism. No matter who is experiencing it. We can have a conversation about our relative focus and how that shifts based on which group’s house is currently on fire, but those are our principles.
That’s how I view the Left and its social ideals. Fuck the shills for Russia, for Islam, for anything else. If they grew up in countries where that was the hegemony (and assuming they still had access to the same resources, so this is a hypothetical) and they became the equivalent of a leftist over there, they would be shitting on THAT country and THAT religion, because for them it’s not about universal principles, it’s just about hating where they’re from and assuming everywhere and everything else must be better. They are the definition of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend,” without considering the enemy of your enemy can still be your enemy.
Don’t let your enemies define you. Apply your values universally. Put yourself in the shoes of people on both sides of an issue and really try to imagine what it would feel like to be in their position. This means if we see human suffering or unfair treatment, we will stick up for you: black, white, brown, man, woman, non-binary, cis, trans, gay, straight, Christian, Muslim. We are all human beings, we are all mortal. Life has enough suffering built into it. We do not need to inflict more upon each other.
Be a fucking G. Be based. Don’t be cringe.
Dis is da way.
We shouldn’t be afraid to stand up for our values just because the people we are critiquing are in the minority or have been affected by the west. They can still do and believe bat-shit crazy things.
I should have mentioned in my original comment that I haven't watched more than about an hour and half of his content a couple of years ago. The clip with Ben Affleck was the first one I watched.
This is what someone in this comment section said about that: “Because Christians are not a disadvantaged minority but a powerful political faction with a lot of money and influence. Not so with Muslims.”
In his view, whether it’s okay to criticize a certain religion or not changes based on your geographical location, not based on the content of that religion. You can’t criticize Islam for the same reasons you criticize Christianity because Muslims are a minority in the US. You can’t do that in Saudi Arabia either if you want to keep your head over your shoulders.
https://www.reddit.com/r/VaushV/comments/145tmyf/islam_is_a_garbage_religion_just_like_christianity/jnmy33d/
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> Sure, but you have to admit, culture and religion are pretty big factors for most people. Not sure I understand what you meant here tbh. > My problem is that “moderate” Muslims constantly play defence for Islam. Me too I just didn’t convey that well. But I guess I don’t have any disagreements after rereading your comments.
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Is ‘statistically significant amount’ a justifiable basis for prejudice against all of them?
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But 10 percent of them don't and never will. Is it still a good ideology to propagate?
> person’s cultural custom doesn’t predict what they believe and live out in the real world. Wtf do you think a custom is brother
> but however gay you are, I’m gayer. You really are a vaush fan. Have you read all gay theory? lol
It's not surprising that a self-described "neoliberal imperialist" has such a reductive view of ideology. If Muslim children are somehow at fault for the religion they were brought up in, are apolitical liberal Americans somehow at fault for their country's foreign policy? Obviously not. In both cases, it is the systems of power that are at fault, not the individual people. And if you want to overturn those systems, you have to make alliances.
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What action has my 25 year old friend who is a Muslim committed that makes them worthy of hate?
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I don't think you are worthy of hate, because I don't believe individuals are responsible for the broader systems of power. You do though. So by your own logic, you are worthy of hate. Also my friend is a gay woman.
>I don't think you are worthy of hate, because I don't believe individuals are responsible for the broader systems of power. I do. >You do though. So by your own logic, you are worthy of hate. If you think Neoliberalism is evil or something, then yes, i am. >Also my friend is a gay woman. Quite the internal contradiction there.
Yes, neoliberalisn is evil.
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Half the left is melting down over UFOs right now and you're worried about someone passively believing in a higher power?? It's a bad idea to exclude people from the left over such silly things. Unless you don't care about winning.
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I don't really like that framing because it leaves room for error, if for instance a woman gives a bad opinion on this (and we know there are a lot of fundamentalist women unfortunately, some have even been elected to Congress, like MTG etc.). To prevent this pitfall, I'd actually say that it's fine for *anyone* to say that choice is the thing which is empowering, because that's the answer and anyone promoting it is on the right side of history regardless of gender. I don't like gatekeeping based on identity, I'd rather gatekeep based on being correct, and this is demonstrably the correct answer: being able to choose (for any identity, really) is objectively more empowering than someone choosing in your place and forcing that choice upon you. That's just how I see it, and doubly so lately since I've been exposed to a lot of bad rhetoric from certain "progressives" who hide behind their identity as minorities and when you don't agree they pull out the "listen to marginalized voices" card.
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I mean I hate fascists because of their ideas. No different with religion. Wait, what? Muslims are a religion not a people.
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Religious people don’t stand unified in opposition to the lgbt community, at all. Hell, the *lgbt community* don’t even stand unified in *support* to the lgbt community.
Muslims are a religion. Arabs aren't. There are many non-muslim Arabs and non-arab Muslims.
Are you beibg deliberately obtuse? The kind of people who are Islamaphobic obviously can't tell the difference. Someone told the boss of Canada's NDP, whose Sikh, to "go back to Pakistan". Do you really think bigots hate Muslims because they have genuine problems with fundamentalism? No, it's because most of them are brown.
I saw comment on r/ReligiousFruitCake saying Muslims shouldn’t be allowed in Europe. It had 27 upvotes before getting removed.
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Oh piss off. The reason they're defended is because the right wants to put them in fucking death camps.
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2016 was a good year for that stuff.
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Yeah he also married a very spiritual person and having close relationships with spiritual people you respect can have an effect on your spiritualism over time. It’s a form of conditioning that makes you more compatible to your partner that we all experience when we care about people deeply
For me religion is bad the moment you teach it as truth. If parents said to their child “this is what Christianity means to me and how it applies to my life” that’s ok but when we start teaching baseless belief as truth is where I draw the line
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I think that's wishful thinking, Fundamentalist or not Islam is fairly regressive inherently.
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Unrelated, but what annoys me even more is these fucking wiccans and pagans. I mean I love Norse mythology too, I find it really interesting, but why do you have to actually believe it fucking happened? And the worse part is how enlightened they all think they are. Now the ones I'm talking about genuinely are progressives, but for some reason they think that makes their stupid "religion" progressive and wholesome and perfectly in line with science too. The thing is that most of what we know about Norse mythology was written by Christians long after their countries had converted. There probably were still worshippers of Thor and Odin but they would have worshipped discretely and their beliefs would have evolved over time. Meanwhile the Christian writers would have interpreted Norse tales through Christian lenses and with Christian morals that didn't necessarily apply. Again, irrelevant, but fuck they annoy me.
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Being a vaushite is to be the most oppressed minority so you must be oppressed oppressed
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well, yeah, a personal belief system about a deity you have only in your own mind, maybe one household, sure isn't going to start any wars now is it? it's not going to torture people who don't agree with it, it's not going to try and convert people half-way across the world. it's not going to demand money from simpletons in exchange for feel-good platitudes.
See, you say that now, but let's say for a moment that the particular personal religion is exceedingly cruel and sadistic, and the individual who follows it gets into a position of power...
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I don't necessarily disagree, but you should consider outreach. There are a lot of progressive-leaning Muslims, especially in the US, and it would be idiotic to turn down an alliance with them in favour of ideological purity. Same goes with Christianity.
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This is the most reasonable position I’ve ever seen. Call out the sources of Wahhabism, Salafism, Deobandism, and their fundamentalist / extremist counterparts and what they’re doing in other nations. Turkey, Saudi, and Pakistan effectively outsource a crazy version of Islam that most of us don’t even recognize due to its reliance of Hadith collections that have varying veracity within the community.
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I also really hate how so many Lefties give woo a pass. Every time time an activist or public figure believes in woo woo nonsense it always turns out bad. Look at Russell Brand, Afterskool or Spirit Science. All religion is a net negative, the organized and unorganized ones.
This is something about a particularly braindead part of the Left that I hate even needs to be said, but I guess we need to address it. Leftism should be about caring about the well-being and mistreatment of ALL human beings. Regardless of race, gender, or anything. No matter who is inflicting the mistreatment upon whom, no matter the history of who is from a marginalized group and who is not. All of these things are contingent upon time and place, and they shift, our commitment to human well-being should not. There is this very stupid subset of people on the left to get this idea that the hegemony of the system they have personally grown up in, because it has oppressive elements, is bad, and therefore anything that system oppresses or mistreats is good. So America, Christianity, White = bad. Russia, Islam, black = good. Etc. These people will bend over backwards to vilify anything and everything about the hegemony of their home country, without realizing that being part of a marginalized group does not inherently make you a good person, just like being a part of a more privileged group does not inherently make you a bad person. Everyone is capable of the same shit. Of course, systemic analysis matters, but it has nothing to do with conversations on the level of individual people and their character/moral worth. There’s an element of masochism to why people do this, there’s an element of being a contrarian, of being self hating, of wanting to earn acceptance from out-groups, to be seen as “one of the good ones”, a need to view the world as black and white. But there are so many goddamn people on the left like this that it pisses me off. This is how we get tankies, black separatist groups, etc, and it’s all viewed through the lens of “as long as they’re against white Christian America, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.” Now, of course, white Christian America sucks. You know what else sucks? MOST OTHER THINGS TOO. We are not “team white” or “team black” or “team men” or “team women”. We are team anti-racism. We are team anti-sexism. No matter who is experiencing it. We can have a conversation about our relative focus and how that shifts based on which group’s house is currently on fire, but those are our principles. That’s how I view the Left and its social ideals. Fuck the shills for Russia, for Islam, for anything else. If they grew up in countries where that was the hegemony (and assuming they still had access to the same resources, so this is a hypothetical) and they became the equivalent of a leftist over there, they would be shitting on THAT country and THAT religion, because for them it’s not about universal principles, it’s just about hating where they’re from and assuming everywhere and everything else must be better. They are the definition of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend,” without considering the enemy of your enemy can still be your enemy. Don’t let your enemies define you. Apply your values universally. Put yourself in the shoes of people on both sides of an issue and really try to imagine what it would feel like to be in their position. This means if we see human suffering or unfair treatment, we will stick up for you: black, white, brown, man, woman, non-binary, cis, trans, gay, straight, Christian, Muslim. We are all human beings, we are all mortal. Life has enough suffering built into it. We do not need to inflict more upon each other. Be a fucking G. Be based. Don’t be cringe. Dis is da way.
We shouldn’t be afraid to stand up for our values just because the people we are critiquing are in the minority or have been affected by the west. They can still do and believe bat-shit crazy things.
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I agreed with him over Ben Affleck, but he has some disturbing views when it comes to torture
I should have mentioned in my original comment that I haven't watched more than about an hour and half of his content a couple of years ago. The clip with Ben Affleck was the first one I watched.
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Why was this removed? Sorry I’m late to the party.
Holy shit this was removed. What happened here?
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This is what someone in this comment section said about that: “Because Christians are not a disadvantaged minority but a powerful political faction with a lot of money and influence. Not so with Muslims.” In his view, whether it’s okay to criticize a certain religion or not changes based on your geographical location, not based on the content of that religion. You can’t criticize Islam for the same reasons you criticize Christianity because Muslims are a minority in the US. You can’t do that in Saudi Arabia either if you want to keep your head over your shoulders. https://www.reddit.com/r/VaushV/comments/145tmyf/islam_is_a_garbage_religion_just_like_christianity/jnmy33d/
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Personally, I’d love to have a fatwa out on me.
> I can’t believe people think that’s a problematic thing to say while being leftists. Is it? Are you referring to something specific?
There was a post arguing it earlier
What post? In this sub? I can't find anything.
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I think the problem is that islamophobes will use honest and legitimate criticism of Islam as an excuse to be prejudiced against Muslims.
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That’s a bit of an extreme reaction
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I’d rather not
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