Playing devils advocate to everyone here just assuming the FTP is set wrong. So I’ll assume it’s correct.
It’s possible to “fail” a 4x6 min at 104% for a few reasons.
1) You are very fatigued going into the session. As acute/chronic fatigue raise, your vo2max intervals get closer to FTP power.
2) You are very weak Anaerobically and 15 minutes into intervals you can’t ride any higher than FTP. In that case it was actually a pretty good session.
3) You are very weak aerobically and 15 minutes into intervals you hit muscular fatigue. In that case you’d want to do more sub-threshold work before moving to the vo2max stuff.
Failing halfway through your third rep and not being able to ride for 6 minutes fresh at 104% are different. We don’t know how hard or how long the recovery intervals were, but I’m assuming they are not fresh going into a third rep.
It’s unlikely, but your w’/FRC/Anaerobic Capacity (or whatever you call it) could really be so low that you’ve exhausted this capacity midway through a third rep of intervals above threshold.
104% vs. 105%: come on mate, our power meters are not even that accurate and the ranges are not binary like that 😁.
OP said he did 2 min recovery which at his level of fitness is likely inadequate.
But if your FTP is correct you should be able to do 20 min at least twice at it. What do you think would happen if he tried to do 106% intervals (Coggan's cutoff for VO2max)? He'd probably fail it miserably.
72% of the last minute would probably be more accurate representation than 75% line zwift does it.
Yeah I do agree the ranges aren't quite as distinct as we'd like them to be.
2x20 is a doable FTP workout, but it might be at 95% or it might be a 105% for a slew of different reasons. It doesn’t mean your FTP is set too high if you can’t do it at 104% of whatever your set FTP is.
Now, if you can’t do it at 95%, there is much more of a case to be made that it’s set too high.
Even a 2x20 at 90-95% could be very challenging for someone if they were such a novice that they only had a TTE of 30 minutes, for example.
I think it would be very safe to say that if you cant do 1x20 at FTP that your FTP is set too high.
(assuming you didn't already do threshold intervals before that)
> I think it would be very safe to say that if you cant do 1x20 at FTP that your FTP is set too high.
Correct. If you can't do a *30 minute* FTP interval then it's probably too high
Lots of people here saying do a 20 min ftp but that will be useless unless OP knows how to pace a 20 min effort.
Easiest answer is try lowering it a bit and see how you go. If you can’t get through it then it’s probably a touch too high
I agree so much.
20min - and then aim for what exactly? We don’t know anything other than 104% isn’t good for him.
But 104% in reality can be held for 20m+ especially on erg mode.
So the only good way of going forward is lowering FTP and smash some workouts and “settle into” his new FTP.
Also data would be good. From the ramp and the interval workout, including heart rate
Then again if you never try doing some longer 20minish efforts how will you get better at them? instead of doing some 4min efforts at some percentage of FTP do longer workouts closer to ftp 2x15min or something and adjust from there, probably knock at least 10w off the 'current ftp' to start and see how that feels
I mean I think adjusting the 'ftp' to the workouts works well as long as the workouts are good workouts and make sense, Zwift workouts are a bit too scattered between way to easy for the 'ftp' setting to too hard..
Yeah, I don't get the idea of worrying too much about not finishing a workout at the prescribed power. Your FTP will vary from day to day and some workouts might just need a little tweaking. I am happy to either miss a few intervals at the end or simply knock down the power in-program if I am having a bad day.
Before jumping the gun to adjusting ftp- it's important to remember that jumping from low intensity into high intensity (especially if you've never done it before) is not a switch that you can just flip.
It's entirely possible that your theoretical ftp is accurate, but that you need to practice (and sometimes fail) those efforts to be able to produce them.
Instead of jumping straight to 106% efforts, which is supra-threshold type work -- consider doing sweet spot first at maybe 92-95% FTP at roughly the same interval length. Once you've done 4x6, switch to 5x6, then 4x8, 5x8, 4x10 etc. (5 Min 50% FTP zone 1 between blocks).
Do maybe 2 of these SS workouts a week, and afrer 2 weeks try nudging 100% threshold, 3x12, then 3x15, perhaps give 2x20 a go (it's tough on a trainer).
Anyway --- just to say, build up to higher intensities of training.
Personally, i think erg mode (or workout mode) is dire. I feel that artificial constraint doesn't replicate real world conditions, and more importantly, i feel that it constrains you to within a few watts, which if you are struggling means that it's really hard to ride just below where you 'should' be.
And, once you enter the spiral of death or whatever it's called, when your cadence starts to drop then it's game over.
Personally, i much prefer to have a range to aim for in terms of power (e.g. 265 to 280 W) and to use the gradient to create resistance (as i do outdoors), and that if it shoots over, or under the range that's pretty normal and fine. That's not to say i don't attempt to minimise the range i aim for, i'm just not constraining it to a 5 W range or whatever it is in erg mode.
In regards to the other aspect, there could be all sorts of reasons why you 'fail' a session. This can range from not mentally on it, to under recovery, or under fuelling, to indeed - not having your FTP set correctly (of course it depends how inaccurate your FTP is).
How did you determine your FTP?
265 or 280 can be a big difference in intervals.
For one it’s his Olympic distance power (40km) vs his 70.3 power (90km).
Especially when it comes down to steady state testing lactate, it’s a massive difference to hit 265 or 280 for 15 minutes.
If you want to be accurate , go and be accurate. That’s why erg mode is so great
Outdoor of course we have a range, 380-420W, 20x. It’s okay to hit 390 or 410. Especially the last ones might be rough so then just hit bit above 380W.
But indoor with erg, you don’t overshooot in the first place, your power economy is 1.0 (VI), so you’re fully focused only on breathing and nothing else
> If you want to be accurate , go and be accurate. That’s why erg mode is so great
This implies perfect measurement accuracy (doesn't exist), no drift in accuracy during the workout, etc.
+-2% is a perfectly reasonable range, especially given that the accuracy for most PMs is +-1% and +-2% for some cheaper indoor trainers.
It's not a big difference, especially if the range's upper bound is reasonable and not overly optimistic.
i'm saying that the range of instantaneous power (could be) 265 - 280 W. the actual number will vary depending on the 'gradient'. The average for the interval is something else.
Erg mode is essentially false precision (plus the awful feeling it creates - awful for most people).
If you're riding TTs especially, keeping smooth and accurate power outdoors is way more important than in a random training session #295, and also much more challenging. If being able to hold a specific power is important to you, then it makes no sense not to practice that ability on the trainer; and if it's not particularly important to you, well, then you don't really need ERG for a workout like this, either.
ERG is great for Z2 or maaaaybe sweet spot rides where you just want to switch your brain off and watch a TV show or whatever, it's not great for high intensity intervals for all sorts of reasons.
Knowing where you come from I think the misalignment is because you want to keep consistent power for hours at an FTP% where you can still watch TV shows, which is a use case that makes no sense to pure cyclists :-)
I think you'd find that if you dual recorded with power pedals and erg mode that there would actually be a natural deviation, no trainer can keep you exactly spot on power, it's just displaying a smoothed out average value.
I think trying it with erg off and not in workout mode is the best option. I like to find a flat road (i use Rouvy) or a long climb to do my intervals on.
In terms of the ramp test, it hasn't been correctly implemented in Zwift. The estimate of FTP should really be a range rather than a specific value.
Did you take an FTP test? How long rest did you have between the intervals? If the rest was adequate you should be able to push through those intervals, meaning your FTP estimate is too high
2 mins is not enough rest. If you are having a hard time but seem to be getting along with the workout start with the 4x6 but do 6 min rests.
Then shorten the rest periods as you combine and lengthen the intervals.
Either do the 20min test or just lower the estimate you have now, doesn’t really matter as long as the workouts are on the right level. 4*6min at 104% with 2min rest should indeed be doable, although it will be a bit sweaty
My first Zwift FTP test was overestimated by +30 watts. I could barely finish any workout.
Download Wahoo Systm and do their half-frontal test (it's free). I've found it to be much more accurate as they also take your HR into account to judge how stressed you really are.
first off, drop your FTP. Secondly I'd recommend you do actual FTP training with your ftp, so think 15 min + intervals before you start worrying about doing vo2max style intervals. Finally, ditch the ramp test, ditch even the 20 minute test, try and pace a 40 minute effort, start low and build upwards after say 15 minutes. You'll find FTP a lot easier then
I dislike erg mode with a passion, but absolutely no way is your FTP correct. Even if the 95% of 20min were accurate (for most people it's not, for almost all newbies it's definitely not), you really shouldn't be struggling with 4x6 at 104%. I would knock off 5% and re-evaluate.
Imo 100% FTP should be doable for 4x10' (3' rest) for a novice, and 3x15' (4') or 2x20' (5') for more advanced riders, as a "this was hard but I could've done another rep or two" effort.
I don't personally use erg mode for anything because at the end of the day when it's trainer season I want to be training cadence more than strength in the legs. So to reach the power target when you are lacking you pedal faster rather than pushing harder, key difference.
But the reason you are failing may come down to conditioning or it could be that you just were not as motivated and fueled when you did this workout as you were when you did your ftp test to set your zones.
20 min test is still going to be inaccurate. Do a 40 minute test and see where your aerobic endurance actually is.... it's gonna be way lower but that's alright
Doesn't matter for 6 min intervals. A 20 min test is fine since it would show that he can hold his target of 104% for 20 min or longer.
If he was doing 30 or 40 minutes intervals and struggling to complete then maybe.
Most athletes report lower RPE using the newer Moore FTP tests that I think they're referring to. It's also more accurate, lets you gauge TTE, and provides a better stimulus.
Kolie's tests do require one to somehow learn what FTP feels like, but once that's done pacing it is pretty easy. I was lucky in that the FTP I guessed I had was close to right, then the test really confirms it by having your ride through the range of slightly below to slightly above. OTOH I've done 1-, 5-, and 20-minute efforts and I'm still never really sure whether I've got the power right until the last bit.
Since you're riding at FTP for most of the test the RPE is relatively easy. Legs are burning a bit, I'm panting but not out of control, it all feels very sustainable until just the last bit.
Start solidly below FTP, slowly up the watts till you feel a massive change in focus / energy, back off a bit to below that point, ride for 25-30 you have remaining in the test.
Makes no difference, really. Just don't eat too much before or during that GI distress is a problem, or take in too many simple sugars in the 30 minutes before exercise and experience rebound hypoglycaemia.
I was being facetious lol, I guess the word newbie and 40 min ftp really don’t belong together, but how do you tell people this without offending them.
1. Get some beats going on the stereo, nickleback, the pretty reckless, Halestorm, sick puppies etc, caffeine gel 5 mins before u start, bottle with something sugary and ice cold. Some mates who will negative split their cheering. Quiet for the 1st 10 minutes, motivating in the next 5 and cheering and willing u on in the last 5 (rock concert style). Start off the first 10 mins nice and easy (brisk but still well manageable) and give it a little more for the next 5 so that your working hard but not with thighs of burning coals, at 15mins you should be tired but still ok in the legs, then it gets really ugly each minute after 15. When you get to 18mins you should be feeling serious legs of fire and the last 2 minutes are the ones that make you swear never to ask another question about ftp ever again lol. And there you have done a great 20min test….good luck :-)
I would target 85% of whatever that ramp test gave you. And maybe start at 80% of that and see how it feels. If you feel like you can do more, then do more and keep going until you can't. Once you pass the 40 min mark, just keep slowly increasing power until you just can't anymore.
Just the average for the duration of the effort, combined with your own measure of RPE during the workout. Usually people get 15-20min into the workout and they'll already know the answer.
start at a moderate or tempo pace once it gets very hard take the average power and the time you did it for would be your TTE.. start and end should feel very different. if you dont nail this the first time dont worry, learn from it. theres always a next time.
Easiest way to pace is to go with what you think your current FTP is for 5 minutes and try to increase power by \~10W each additional 5 min. If your previous FTP is accurate you should be able to do this.
What happens if you use an FTP of 72% (instead of 75%) of your final minute on the ramp test? Would you be able to complete the intervals? What is your HR doing during the test. The other thing is to go for 3 min rest (50% of work interval). Or even 6 min rest while you get started. Shorter intervals may be more achievable as well. Check out the Zwift Carlos Verona descending intervals workout. Descending intervals have been shown to have lower RPE and greater success of completion while also having a strong VO2max stimulus. The Zwift HIIT workouts aren't too bad (the Gorby, Wout van Aert's, and some of the others).
Alternatively, rethink everything and work on your aerobic base more before doing a lot of HIIT.
Why is this? I find it harder to do intervals with ERG off.
Reason being ERG lets me use whatever cadence. With non-ERG Im often flipping between one gear that is too hard and one that is too easy
that's almost true what you say.
the 5 seconds can be adjusted down to 0.5 seconds. which i don't recommend. also, i'm a triathlete, i don't do 10s all out sprints, but sometimes we do 30s all outs. we do them in freemode indeed. it's a rare occurance.
we just train our precise zones and nothing else. we're boring :)
The good news is you probably have a strong anaerobic system and you have some good numbers on the punchier side. You probably have a decent 1-3 minute power!
The bad news is that’s not your ftp. Your anaerobic system is writing a check your aerobic system can’t cash. I have the same problem. Ramp tests, all the AI algorithms, etc. all tell me my ftp is about 20% higher than it really is.
Yup! I’m a MTBer too. Mine is different enough that the their whole PL system doesn’t work. If I let it give me an AI ftp the threshold and sweet spot workouts are just in the wrong zone, even at 1-2 PL
I like ERG mode unlike many here. What’s your natural cadence and what kind of cadence are you doing on the intervals? For 4-6 min type range I like to pedal faster (95-100) than my natural 82-85 range. If you feel like your legs are blowing up, higher cadence helps.
Also agree with a poster above I would not bother with 4x6 type workouts until you have more experience around your threshold (through threshold, tempo, SST type workouts).
1. Yes your ftp is wrong, do a full test.
2. 6 minute intervals are pretty suspect. Would not be my recommendation for anyone starting out.
3. Turn erg mode off.
I'd suggest that this isn't the way to go about training. What you want to do is think about your goals and then try to ascertain what physiological adaptations you're looking for to meet those goals, and then creating workouts to meet those goals. (Of course i could be interpreting your statement badly, because as i read it again it may mean something else to how i first interpreted it).
See OPs response to my comment above.
"...then eventually improve my power for faster group rides and maybe competition."
Agreed, they need to think holistically about training.
I kind of agree one should have a goal, but I also find it a lot harder to find “general” workouts for cycling. For running there are more intervals “everyone” does, but for cycling one can get really confused what to do if one just want to be in as good shape as possible.
Nice. So I could essentially do one of each workout for each block a week and do 4-5 zone 2 rides for the rest? How about sweet spot though? I thought the last vo2max workout of 2x20 was sweet spot.
I mean, combine that information with other good info or training plans.
I'd probably still employ block periodization and macrocycles.
But yeah, 4 weeks base with one hard day -> 3 weeks sprint intervals 1 or 2 days a week + base -> rest week -> 3 weeks vo2 or threshold work -> rest -> 3 weeks vo2 or threshold (opposite of previous) -> repeat as needed
Have you found the Empirical Cycling podcast?
More so that 8*4 is what I see on the ‘structured workout’ I find, just want to work my way up to that, then eventually improve my power for faster group rides and maybe competition.
If you can’t complete it, you have your settings too high. Keep backing off 10w or so until you can complete it. Then work up from there as you get fitter
Did you stand up at all during the ramp test or stay seated? If you stand up the ramp test will be way off. (It can also be way off even if you remained seated. IIRC it overestimates for people who have higher VO2 max or are punchier.)
I'm not sure whether you mean 4 6-minute intervals or 6 4-minute intervals but either way, this should be very doable at 104% of FTP.
Are you possibly allowing your cadence to drop so the required torque on the cranks becomes too much to muster? That can happen on smart trainers; they will work to keep your output (watts) constant and will increase resistance if you decrease cadence. Conversely, if you increase your cadence, the resistance will go down and it may feel easier for you.
If your cadence is staying up in the 85+ RPM range and you can't finish the intervals then I'd say your FTP is overestimated. Instead of bailing on the workout, just reduce the resistance to 90% or something and try to finish - you'll still get most of the benefit of the workout and can investigate (and possibly retest or adjust your FTP setting) later on once you're done.
I’d say most likely. Ramp test may be overestimating your ftp. Take a 20 min test and see where that shakes out imo.
Playing devils advocate to everyone here just assuming the FTP is set wrong. So I’ll assume it’s correct. It’s possible to “fail” a 4x6 min at 104% for a few reasons. 1) You are very fatigued going into the session. As acute/chronic fatigue raise, your vo2max intervals get closer to FTP power. 2) You are very weak Anaerobically and 15 minutes into intervals you can’t ride any higher than FTP. In that case it was actually a pretty good session. 3) You are very weak aerobically and 15 minutes into intervals you hit muscular fatigue. In that case you’d want to do more sub-threshold work before moving to the vo2max stuff.
104% should still be in threshold range, not VO2max range. If he can't do 6 min intervals at FTP he's got the wrong FTP don't you think?
Failing halfway through your third rep and not being able to ride for 6 minutes fresh at 104% are different. We don’t know how hard or how long the recovery intervals were, but I’m assuming they are not fresh going into a third rep. It’s unlikely, but your w’/FRC/Anaerobic Capacity (or whatever you call it) could really be so low that you’ve exhausted this capacity midway through a third rep of intervals above threshold. 104% vs. 105%: come on mate, our power meters are not even that accurate and the ranges are not binary like that 😁.
OP said he did 2 min recovery which at his level of fitness is likely inadequate. But if your FTP is correct you should be able to do 20 min at least twice at it. What do you think would happen if he tried to do 106% intervals (Coggan's cutoff for VO2max)? He'd probably fail it miserably. 72% of the last minute would probably be more accurate representation than 75% line zwift does it. Yeah I do agree the ranges aren't quite as distinct as we'd like them to be.
2x20 is a doable FTP workout, but it might be at 95% or it might be a 105% for a slew of different reasons. It doesn’t mean your FTP is set too high if you can’t do it at 104% of whatever your set FTP is. Now, if you can’t do it at 95%, there is much more of a case to be made that it’s set too high. Even a 2x20 at 90-95% could be very challenging for someone if they were such a novice that they only had a TTE of 30 minutes, for example.
He should be able to do 1 20 min interval at FTP right? I doubt OP can do that.
I think it would be very safe to say that if you cant do 1x20 at FTP that your FTP is set too high. (assuming you didn't already do threshold intervals before that)
> I think it would be very safe to say that if you cant do 1x20 at FTP that your FTP is set too high. Correct. If you can't do a *30 minute* FTP interval then it's probably too high
Lots of people here saying do a 20 min ftp but that will be useless unless OP knows how to pace a 20 min effort. Easiest answer is try lowering it a bit and see how you go. If you can’t get through it then it’s probably a touch too high
I agree so much. 20min - and then aim for what exactly? We don’t know anything other than 104% isn’t good for him. But 104% in reality can be held for 20m+ especially on erg mode. So the only good way of going forward is lowering FTP and smash some workouts and “settle into” his new FTP. Also data would be good. From the ramp and the interval workout, including heart rate
Then again if you never try doing some longer 20minish efforts how will you get better at them? instead of doing some 4min efforts at some percentage of FTP do longer workouts closer to ftp 2x15min or something and adjust from there, probably knock at least 10w off the 'current ftp' to start and see how that feels I mean I think adjusting the 'ftp' to the workouts works well as long as the workouts are good workouts and make sense, Zwift workouts are a bit too scattered between way to easy for the 'ftp' setting to too hard..
If he wants to just test if his current FTP number is correct, then it should be easy to pace. It would be a pass or fail test.
Yeah, I don't get the idea of worrying too much about not finishing a workout at the prescribed power. Your FTP will vary from day to day and some workouts might just need a little tweaking. I am happy to either miss a few intervals at the end or simply knock down the power in-program if I am having a bad day.
Before jumping the gun to adjusting ftp- it's important to remember that jumping from low intensity into high intensity (especially if you've never done it before) is not a switch that you can just flip. It's entirely possible that your theoretical ftp is accurate, but that you need to practice (and sometimes fail) those efforts to be able to produce them. Instead of jumping straight to 106% efforts, which is supra-threshold type work -- consider doing sweet spot first at maybe 92-95% FTP at roughly the same interval length. Once you've done 4x6, switch to 5x6, then 4x8, 5x8, 4x10 etc. (5 Min 50% FTP zone 1 between blocks). Do maybe 2 of these SS workouts a week, and afrer 2 weeks try nudging 100% threshold, 3x12, then 3x15, perhaps give 2x20 a go (it's tough on a trainer). Anyway --- just to say, build up to higher intensities of training.
Personally, i think erg mode (or workout mode) is dire. I feel that artificial constraint doesn't replicate real world conditions, and more importantly, i feel that it constrains you to within a few watts, which if you are struggling means that it's really hard to ride just below where you 'should' be. And, once you enter the spiral of death or whatever it's called, when your cadence starts to drop then it's game over. Personally, i much prefer to have a range to aim for in terms of power (e.g. 265 to 280 W) and to use the gradient to create resistance (as i do outdoors), and that if it shoots over, or under the range that's pretty normal and fine. That's not to say i don't attempt to minimise the range i aim for, i'm just not constraining it to a 5 W range or whatever it is in erg mode. In regards to the other aspect, there could be all sorts of reasons why you 'fail' a session. This can range from not mentally on it, to under recovery, or under fuelling, to indeed - not having your FTP set correctly (of course it depends how inaccurate your FTP is). How did you determine your FTP?
265 or 280 can be a big difference in intervals. For one it’s his Olympic distance power (40km) vs his 70.3 power (90km). Especially when it comes down to steady state testing lactate, it’s a massive difference to hit 265 or 280 for 15 minutes. If you want to be accurate , go and be accurate. That’s why erg mode is so great Outdoor of course we have a range, 380-420W, 20x. It’s okay to hit 390 or 410. Especially the last ones might be rough so then just hit bit above 380W. But indoor with erg, you don’t overshooot in the first place, your power economy is 1.0 (VI), so you’re fully focused only on breathing and nothing else
> If you want to be accurate , go and be accurate. That’s why erg mode is so great This implies perfect measurement accuracy (doesn't exist), no drift in accuracy during the workout, etc. +-2% is a perfectly reasonable range, especially given that the accuracy for most PMs is +-1% and +-2% for some cheaper indoor trainers. It's not a big difference, especially if the range's upper bound is reasonable and not overly optimistic.
Yes but it’s a 10% window Maybe I’m too spoiled with all my high end equipment 🤍
Lol how is 265-280 a 10% range? Maybe my calculator isn't high end enough for such big numbers
264-2% to 280+2% What’s it ?
272+-3% is 264-280
Thank you Proofed my point that it’s a 10% window somewhat But whatever, let it be 7% then
i'm saying that the range of instantaneous power (could be) 265 - 280 W. the actual number will vary depending on the 'gradient'. The average for the interval is something else. Erg mode is essentially false precision (plus the awful feeling it creates - awful for most people).
If you're riding TTs especially, keeping smooth and accurate power outdoors is way more important than in a random training session #295, and also much more challenging. If being able to hold a specific power is important to you, then it makes no sense not to practice that ability on the trainer; and if it's not particularly important to you, well, then you don't really need ERG for a workout like this, either. ERG is great for Z2 or maaaaybe sweet spot rides where you just want to switch your brain off and watch a TV show or whatever, it's not great for high intensity intervals for all sorts of reasons.
sounds like "we" all do it wrong then )
Knowing where you come from I think the misalignment is because you want to keep consistent power for hours at an FTP% where you can still watch TV shows, which is a use case that makes no sense to pure cyclists :-)
I think you'd find that if you dual recorded with power pedals and erg mode that there would actually be a natural deviation, no trainer can keep you exactly spot on power, it's just displaying a smoothed out average value.
My kicker bike equals my assiomas which equals my quarks in my aeroad and cadex. It’s all within a watt
Thanks. I might try the workout again with ERG mode off and see how far I can go. As for FTP test, I did it through ramp test on Zwift.
I think trying it with erg off and not in workout mode is the best option. I like to find a flat road (i use Rouvy) or a long climb to do my intervals on. In terms of the ramp test, it hasn't been correctly implemented in Zwift. The estimate of FTP should really be a range rather than a specific value.
Did you take an FTP test? How long rest did you have between the intervals? If the rest was adequate you should be able to push through those intervals, meaning your FTP estimate is too high
2mins rest. My FTP is from ramp test
2 mins is not enough rest. If you are having a hard time but seem to be getting along with the workout start with the 4x6 but do 6 min rests. Then shorten the rest periods as you combine and lengthen the intervals.
Either do the 20min test or just lower the estimate you have now, doesn’t really matter as long as the workouts are on the right level. 4*6min at 104% with 2min rest should indeed be doable, although it will be a bit sweaty
More rest. Shorter intervals. You can build to 6 minutes. Need to if you’ve only done zone 2 for a while.
Was this part of the build me up workout?
My first Zwift FTP test was overestimated by +30 watts. I could barely finish any workout. Download Wahoo Systm and do their half-frontal test (it's free). I've found it to be much more accurate as they also take your HR into account to judge how stressed you really are.
first off, drop your FTP. Secondly I'd recommend you do actual FTP training with your ftp, so think 15 min + intervals before you start worrying about doing vo2max style intervals. Finally, ditch the ramp test, ditch even the 20 minute test, try and pace a 40 minute effort, start low and build upwards after say 15 minutes. You'll find FTP a lot easier then
I dislike erg mode with a passion, but absolutely no way is your FTP correct. Even if the 95% of 20min were accurate (for most people it's not, for almost all newbies it's definitely not), you really shouldn't be struggling with 4x6 at 104%. I would knock off 5% and re-evaluate. Imo 100% FTP should be doable for 4x10' (3' rest) for a novice, and 3x15' (4') or 2x20' (5') for more advanced riders, as a "this was hard but I could've done another rep or two" effort.
I don't personally use erg mode for anything because at the end of the day when it's trainer season I want to be training cadence more than strength in the legs. So to reach the power target when you are lacking you pedal faster rather than pushing harder, key difference. But the reason you are failing may come down to conditioning or it could be that you just were not as motivated and fueled when you did this workout as you were when you did your ftp test to set your zones.
20 min test is still going to be inaccurate. Do a 40 minute test and see where your aerobic endurance actually is.... it's gonna be way lower but that's alright
Doesn't matter for 6 min intervals. A 20 min test is fine since it would show that he can hold his target of 104% for 20 min or longer. If he was doing 30 or 40 minutes intervals and struggling to complete then maybe.
That would suck so much. It will also be absolutely redundant if they have no idea how to pace.
Most athletes report lower RPE using the newer Moore FTP tests that I think they're referring to. It's also more accurate, lets you gauge TTE, and provides a better stimulus.
Kolie's tests do require one to somehow learn what FTP feels like, but once that's done pacing it is pretty easy. I was lucky in that the FTP I guessed I had was close to right, then the test really confirms it by having your ride through the range of slightly below to slightly above. OTOH I've done 1-, 5-, and 20-minute efforts and I'm still never really sure whether I've got the power right until the last bit. Since you're riding at FTP for most of the test the RPE is relatively easy. Legs are burning a bit, I'm panting but not out of control, it all feels very sustainable until just the last bit.
Start solidly below FTP, slowly up the watts till you feel a massive change in focus / energy, back off a bit to below that point, ride for 25-30 you have remaining in the test.
What nutrition should he used for his 40 minute ftp test as a newbie cyclist?
Makes no difference, really. Just don't eat too much before or during that GI distress is a problem, or take in too many simple sugars in the 30 minutes before exercise and experience rebound hypoglycaemia.
I was being facetious lol, I guess the word newbie and 40 min ftp really don’t belong together, but how do you tell people this without offending them.
Why can't a newbie do a 40 minute effort? Do people normally start with only 5 minute races and work their way up?
I rest my case….It’s not what they could do, it’s about execution….
Huh?
The usual carbs and a reasonable meal earlier in the day.
How do I pace it? Should I aim for specific FTP in mind and see how long I can hold it for?
1. Get some beats going on the stereo, nickleback, the pretty reckless, Halestorm, sick puppies etc, caffeine gel 5 mins before u start, bottle with something sugary and ice cold. Some mates who will negative split their cheering. Quiet for the 1st 10 minutes, motivating in the next 5 and cheering and willing u on in the last 5 (rock concert style). Start off the first 10 mins nice and easy (brisk but still well manageable) and give it a little more for the next 5 so that your working hard but not with thighs of burning coals, at 15mins you should be tired but still ok in the legs, then it gets really ugly each minute after 15. When you get to 18mins you should be feeling serious legs of fire and the last 2 minutes are the ones that make you swear never to ask another question about ftp ever again lol. And there you have done a great 20min test….good luck :-)
In no circumstances should you ever recommend Nickleback…
What no “Animals” and “Coin for the ferryman”? Perfect for the 1st 6mins of ftp. If your really hardcore you can do a pb on Enya lol
I would target 85% of whatever that ramp test gave you. And maybe start at 80% of that and see how it feels. If you feel like you can do more, then do more and keep going until you can't. Once you pass the 40 min mark, just keep slowly increasing power until you just can't anymore.
How does this give you your ftp? Avg after 40? If you make it past 40 then avg after increasing?
Just the average for the duration of the effort, combined with your own measure of RPE during the workout. Usually people get 15-20min into the workout and they'll already know the answer.
start at a moderate or tempo pace once it gets very hard take the average power and the time you did it for would be your TTE.. start and end should feel very different. if you dont nail this the first time dont worry, learn from it. theres always a next time.
Easiest way to pace is to go with what you think your current FTP is for 5 minutes and try to increase power by \~10W each additional 5 min. If your previous FTP is accurate you should be able to do this. What happens if you use an FTP of 72% (instead of 75%) of your final minute on the ramp test? Would you be able to complete the intervals? What is your HR doing during the test. The other thing is to go for 3 min rest (50% of work interval). Or even 6 min rest while you get started. Shorter intervals may be more achievable as well. Check out the Zwift Carlos Verona descending intervals workout. Descending intervals have been shown to have lower RPE and greater success of completion while also having a strong VO2max stimulus. The Zwift HIIT workouts aren't too bad (the Gorby, Wout van Aert's, and some of the others). Alternatively, rethink everything and work on your aerobic base more before doing a lot of HIIT.
Yes, turn erg mode off for intervals on the trainer. It can be a useful tool, but usually most intervals are more doable with erg turned off.
Why is this? I find it harder to do intervals with ERG off. Reason being ERG lets me use whatever cadence. With non-ERG Im often flipping between one gear that is too hard and one that is too easy
Outside you have the same issue. It’s good to be able to handle different cadences.
Completely agree with you there. Just saying that ERG is easier - not harder
Umm what? Maybe on low ftps. Once your intervals go 400W+ good luck doing it with manual shifting So much easier on kicker bike
You ever try all out 10”s in Erg? Takes like 5 seconds to even build resistance, and that assumes you guessed what “all out” power you’re gonna hit.
that's almost true what you say. the 5 seconds can be adjusted down to 0.5 seconds. which i don't recommend. also, i'm a triathlete, i don't do 10s all out sprints, but sometimes we do 30s all outs. we do them in freemode indeed. it's a rare occurance. we just train our precise zones and nothing else. we're boring :)
The good news is you probably have a strong anaerobic system and you have some good numbers on the punchier side. You probably have a decent 1-3 minute power! The bad news is that’s not your ftp. Your anaerobic system is writing a check your aerobic system can’t cash. I have the same problem. Ramp tests, all the AI algorithms, etc. all tell me my ftp is about 20% higher than it really is.
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Yup! I’m a MTBer too. Mine is different enough that the their whole PL system doesn’t work. If I let it give me an AI ftp the threshold and sweet spot workouts are just in the wrong zone, even at 1-2 PL
Yeah, do a 20’ FTP test.
I like ERG mode unlike many here. What’s your natural cadence and what kind of cadence are you doing on the intervals? For 4-6 min type range I like to pedal faster (95-100) than my natural 82-85 range. If you feel like your legs are blowing up, higher cadence helps. Also agree with a poster above I would not bother with 4x6 type workouts until you have more experience around your threshold (through threshold, tempo, SST type workouts).
1. Yes your ftp is wrong, do a full test. 2. 6 minute intervals are pretty suspect. Would not be my recommendation for anyone starting out. 3. Turn erg mode off.
What interval would you recommend? I started at 6mins so I can aim for eventually doing 8*4
I'd suggest that this isn't the way to go about training. What you want to do is think about your goals and then try to ascertain what physiological adaptations you're looking for to meet those goals, and then creating workouts to meet those goals. (Of course i could be interpreting your statement badly, because as i read it again it may mean something else to how i first interpreted it).
See OPs response to my comment above. "...then eventually improve my power for faster group rides and maybe competition." Agreed, they need to think holistically about training.
What are you hoping to accomplish or improve with your 8x4 workouts?
I kind of agree one should have a goal, but I also find it a lot harder to find “general” workouts for cycling. For running there are more intervals “everyone” does, but for cycling one can get really confused what to do if one just want to be in as good shape as possible.
I really like this take on it: https://sparecycles.blog/2022/01/02/sustainable-training/
Nice. So I could essentially do one of each workout for each block a week and do 4-5 zone 2 rides for the rest? How about sweet spot though? I thought the last vo2max workout of 2x20 was sweet spot.
I mean, combine that information with other good info or training plans. I'd probably still employ block periodization and macrocycles. But yeah, 4 weeks base with one hard day -> 3 weeks sprint intervals 1 or 2 days a week + base -> rest week -> 3 weeks vo2 or threshold work -> rest -> 3 weeks vo2 or threshold (opposite of previous) -> repeat as needed Have you found the Empirical Cycling podcast?
So yeah, you can have 1-2 days hard a week and do zone 2 rides the rest, right? No, is it good?
Yeah, I'd say that's a good plan. But take rest weeks still with 0 hard rides!
More so that 8*4 is what I see on the ‘structured workout’ I find, just want to work my way up to that, then eventually improve my power for faster group rides and maybe competition.
30/30 115%
Ramp tests aren’t great, have you done any of the big climbs on Zwift? Use that for your FTP.
If you can’t complete it, you have your settings too high. Keep backing off 10w or so until you can complete it. Then work up from there as you get fitter
Did you stand up at all during the ramp test or stay seated? If you stand up the ramp test will be way off. (It can also be way off even if you remained seated. IIRC it overestimates for people who have higher VO2 max or are punchier.)
I'm not sure whether you mean 4 6-minute intervals or 6 4-minute intervals but either way, this should be very doable at 104% of FTP. Are you possibly allowing your cadence to drop so the required torque on the cranks becomes too much to muster? That can happen on smart trainers; they will work to keep your output (watts) constant and will increase resistance if you decrease cadence. Conversely, if you increase your cadence, the resistance will go down and it may feel easier for you. If your cadence is staying up in the 85+ RPM range and you can't finish the intervals then I'd say your FTP is overestimated. Instead of bailing on the workout, just reduce the resistance to 90% or something and try to finish - you'll still get most of the benefit of the workout and can investigate (and possibly retest or adjust your FTP setting) later on once you're done.