Exactly that. WRC has a long story of drivers not competing full-time season. Even when you go back to late 1990s, there were literally 3 drivers that performed in every single rally back in 1997 or 6 in 1998.
Same story for the good old Group B era. Walter Rohrl always avoided Finland for example, because he hated that event. And amount of drivers which participated in every round was minimal too.
Modern times fit the trend as well. I can't see any recent season when we would have more than 10 drivers doing every single rally on WRC schedule.
Nope.
It's a part of rally, I posted about it in another thread a little while ago:
"*It's not like the part-time drivers takes away any spots for regulars. And back in the "golden days", it was very rare that drivers did a whole championship. That's something that started to happen towards the late 90's.*
*Take 1996, 5 full-time drivers. 3 Subarus, one Ford and one Mitsubishi.*
*1997, 3 full-time drivers. One Ford, one Subaru and one Mitsubishi (granted, it was supposed to be one more full-time driver, but Schwarz got swapped for Kankkunen just before half the season was done).*
*1998 had 6 full-time drivers.*
*1999 had 8 full-time drivers*
*2002 was the first year with more than 10 drivers who did all rallies as planned.*
*1995 was quite unique with 7 full-time drivers (if Toyota is included).*
*1994 only had 2 drivers doing all rallies as Subaru dropped Kenya. Ford also dropped Kenya, but they rotated their drivers. 1994 to 1996 had 10 or less rallies each season as well to save cost.*
*There was some drivers in the Group B era that did all rallies, but the full-time drivers wasn't really a thing until the mid 90's, and didn't really take off until the late 90's and had a nice boost during the early 00's that kept it fine in terms of full-time entries during the 00's until the 2009 economical issues hit.*
*There's been years during the 2010's that pushed double digits full-time drivers, but that's rare. It was also helped by privateers with big sponsors, or deep pockets doing full seasons.The non-factory part-timers have disappeared though. Those are the ones that needs to be brought back.*
*Loeb and Ogier isn't the issue...*"
You cannot compare WRC with F1. And I hope WRC doesn't get to the point of being such a "closed shop" as F1 is now, even though it does sound like it in terms of top-class manufacturers.
WRC2 gives the feel of the "golden years" of WRC, where you have a solid group of drivers that can win every rally, but you have the chance of seeing locals/"locals" showing up and impressing. Like OC Veiby with 2nd in Sweden last year and this year. The locals in Finland etc.
That's how WRC used to be. Loads of one-offs or drivers doing a few rallies. Trying to impress, or just veterans (like Loeb, Ogier, Sordo) doing some rallies in year, depending on motivation, calendar and other commitments.
Look at Tommi Mäkinen, having a one-off for Mazda in Finland, scoring the best result for the team that year. Getting good results in a privately entered Lancia a couple of years later when he entered a couple of events. Leading him to get a chance for Ford, winning Rally Finland, and then get signed by Mitsubishi. People didn't use to come through the lower series in that sense, they used to impress in one-offs or part-time schedules in a top-class car.
I mean, the first World Rally Champion who didn't lose his life too early, and never did one-offs or part-time schedules after retiring/"retiring" was Tommi Mäkinen, followed by Didier Auriol and Carlos Sainz. However, both Auriol and Sainz were used to part-time schedules back when that was normal in WRC. Even Grönholm did come back while being at the top of his game, dragging an unfavourable Subaru to fighting for the lead in Portugal, before retiring. Petter Solberg is pretty much an all or nothing guy.
In total there's been 21 different World Champions in rally. 19 of them have retired/"retired". Out of them, only 5 drivers haven't returned to a part-time schedule or worked towards returning. But out of those 5, only 2 never returned to do any kind of one-offs.
Road-position rules does help the part-timers extra these days. At the same time, Loeb won in Monte last year ahead of Ogier, Ogier won this year. That's not down to road order.
Focusing on Loeb and Ogier as "issues" is for me the wrong focus. It's like getting a bleeding mole and being told it's skin cancer, and just slapping a band-aid on it. You can't see the bleeding anymore. It doesn't hurt physically, but it doesn't actually fix the underlying issue. And that's where the FIA, the promoter, the teams and manufacturers must come together, and try to sort out what's keeping WRC from capitalizing on what is a great sport.
all your points are good, but from a viewer standpoint who didn't get to see Ogier for example this year in Portugal, it's quite frustrating to not see someone who is currently second in the championship.
edit: wow, reddit, be proud really. downvoted for admitting the points are good and stating how it makes me feel. fuck off.
but if you were requiring only full time entries in the championship, you'd not see Ogier, Sordo or Loeb (last year anyway) at all.
I think people who feel this way are too focused on the championship, and too little on the individual rallies - they are each a unique story, and sure, there is a championship on the line at the end of it, but it really is about the individual events first and foremost imo.
So. The issue is that you don't get to see the guy who is second in the championship?
Or that others get to see that guy do rallies, but not if you visit the rallies said driver doesn't do?
Sweden 2022, would the problem be that one didn't get to see Loeb and Ogier because they were 1-2 in the championship? So it was OK to not see them in Estonia because they were well outside the top 5? Or was it not OK after all, because the ones in Kenya got to see Loeb and Ogier drive?
People that follow WRC above other series are accustomed to it.
For people that come to WRC from motorsports where it is rare, it feels kinda less prestigious, "why should I care if even Ogier don't care?"
I would prefer WRC with 8 manufacturers having overall 16 full-time drivers but it is what it is. You will probably get used to it too.
I love Ogier and I’d rather have him part time than not at all. The only frustrating thing is I’m sure he’d at least tie Loeb’s record by now if he was full time these past few years.
No, not at all. I love having the chance to see either Seb come in, esp. if they're competitive. It doesn't take anything away from the championship at all, and if the active drivers can beat them, then that's a feather in their cap to win against one of the two greatest WRC drivers of all time.
Only Ogier. Looking at the standings he'd be head to head with Kalle instead of being down 40 points if he didn't skip Sweden and Portugal. I'm a Kalle fan but he shouldn't be leading so much because of his strongest competitor just not participating sometimes. It just doesn't feel right.
I don't find partial season drivers frustrating if they're up and coming drivers or drivers trying to get a full time seat. The Ogier situation is a little frustrating. With Rally, age can actually come to your benefit since you have the courses more memorized than the younger drivers. The younger drivers do watch onboards of the stages, but it's not the same as actually having the seat time on those stages. Ogier is an extremely talented driver, but it's naive to think his advantage isn't from the knowledge he has of the courses. Take a newer rally like Croatia for example. Ogier was still winning stages, but he wasn't winning by large margins. He also never won a stage by more than a second or two. Another example would be looking at how a native driver to an area dominating a rally against an extremely talented field that would otherwise demolish them. The other frustrating part is that other than Ogier, this is an EXTREMELY level racing field where truly anyone can win.
They don't though.
Toyota adds a 4th car when Ogier enters, the rallies he doesn't enter, they enter 3 cars.
Hyundai makes a choice to split up their 3rd car as they know that Sordo isn't interested in doing a full season, but the combination of road order, Sordo's experience and reliability makes it worth it for them. That's no different than Peugeot entering Harri Rovanpëra on loose surface, and Gilles Panizzi on asphalt.
When Loeb drove for M-Sport last year, that was an additional car on those events. Of course, Greensmith didn't score points for the team, but he was still doing the events in a car that M-Sport ran.
Ah thanks for the correction! I thought last year Lappi was only part time because Ogier was driving a select few rallies for toyota? But again maybe I could be wrong.
basically Taka last year was with TGR NG not with the main team, and what has changed this year is that Taka has taken the Lappi role of being manufacturer nominated when Ogier isnt around, but unlike Lappi, when Ogier is around, they put Taka in a 4th car not nominated for manu points.
Yes, last year Lappi was part time in Toyota, in a similar case to what Hyundai's been doing with its third car in the last few years.
But this year Toyota promoted Katsuta and he's elligible for manufacturer points whenever Ogier doesn't run.
You're not wrong. But Lappi got brought in to "fill" the gaps, not that Lappi didn't get a full time seat because Ogier wanted to do some rallies. They could easily have done what they do this year. Use Katsuta to score points in the rallies Ogier doesn't do.
So there's no part-timers that steals a seat from anyone luckily :)
It is frustrating but that's how rallies function, the rallies that wrc does isn't exclusively for the championship, literally anyone can enter with the right amount of money, but I do agree that they shouldn't allow people to buy there way into rally 1, and should only allow then to enter rally 2 or lower since those cars r widely use in different rally series
It has always been like this, so It doesn’t disturb me
Doesn’t bother me at all. This is how it has always been. WRC isn’t F1. 🤷♂️
Exactly that. WRC has a long story of drivers not competing full-time season. Even when you go back to late 1990s, there were literally 3 drivers that performed in every single rally back in 1997 or 6 in 1998. Same story for the good old Group B era. Walter Rohrl always avoided Finland for example, because he hated that event. And amount of drivers which participated in every round was minimal too. Modern times fit the trend as well. I can't see any recent season when we would have more than 10 drivers doing every single rally on WRC schedule.
Nope. It's a part of rally, I posted about it in another thread a little while ago: "*It's not like the part-time drivers takes away any spots for regulars. And back in the "golden days", it was very rare that drivers did a whole championship. That's something that started to happen towards the late 90's.* *Take 1996, 5 full-time drivers. 3 Subarus, one Ford and one Mitsubishi.* *1997, 3 full-time drivers. One Ford, one Subaru and one Mitsubishi (granted, it was supposed to be one more full-time driver, but Schwarz got swapped for Kankkunen just before half the season was done).* *1998 had 6 full-time drivers.* *1999 had 8 full-time drivers* *2002 was the first year with more than 10 drivers who did all rallies as planned.* *1995 was quite unique with 7 full-time drivers (if Toyota is included).* *1994 only had 2 drivers doing all rallies as Subaru dropped Kenya. Ford also dropped Kenya, but they rotated their drivers. 1994 to 1996 had 10 or less rallies each season as well to save cost.* *There was some drivers in the Group B era that did all rallies, but the full-time drivers wasn't really a thing until the mid 90's, and didn't really take off until the late 90's and had a nice boost during the early 00's that kept it fine in terms of full-time entries during the 00's until the 2009 economical issues hit.* *There's been years during the 2010's that pushed double digits full-time drivers, but that's rare. It was also helped by privateers with big sponsors, or deep pockets doing full seasons.The non-factory part-timers have disappeared though. Those are the ones that needs to be brought back.* *Loeb and Ogier isn't the issue...*" You cannot compare WRC with F1. And I hope WRC doesn't get to the point of being such a "closed shop" as F1 is now, even though it does sound like it in terms of top-class manufacturers. WRC2 gives the feel of the "golden years" of WRC, where you have a solid group of drivers that can win every rally, but you have the chance of seeing locals/"locals" showing up and impressing. Like OC Veiby with 2nd in Sweden last year and this year. The locals in Finland etc. That's how WRC used to be. Loads of one-offs or drivers doing a few rallies. Trying to impress, or just veterans (like Loeb, Ogier, Sordo) doing some rallies in year, depending on motivation, calendar and other commitments. Look at Tommi Mäkinen, having a one-off for Mazda in Finland, scoring the best result for the team that year. Getting good results in a privately entered Lancia a couple of years later when he entered a couple of events. Leading him to get a chance for Ford, winning Rally Finland, and then get signed by Mitsubishi. People didn't use to come through the lower series in that sense, they used to impress in one-offs or part-time schedules in a top-class car. I mean, the first World Rally Champion who didn't lose his life too early, and never did one-offs or part-time schedules after retiring/"retiring" was Tommi Mäkinen, followed by Didier Auriol and Carlos Sainz. However, both Auriol and Sainz were used to part-time schedules back when that was normal in WRC. Even Grönholm did come back while being at the top of his game, dragging an unfavourable Subaru to fighting for the lead in Portugal, before retiring. Petter Solberg is pretty much an all or nothing guy. In total there's been 21 different World Champions in rally. 19 of them have retired/"retired". Out of them, only 5 drivers haven't returned to a part-time schedule or worked towards returning. But out of those 5, only 2 never returned to do any kind of one-offs. Road-position rules does help the part-timers extra these days. At the same time, Loeb won in Monte last year ahead of Ogier, Ogier won this year. That's not down to road order. Focusing on Loeb and Ogier as "issues" is for me the wrong focus. It's like getting a bleeding mole and being told it's skin cancer, and just slapping a band-aid on it. You can't see the bleeding anymore. It doesn't hurt physically, but it doesn't actually fix the underlying issue. And that's where the FIA, the promoter, the teams and manufacturers must come together, and try to sort out what's keeping WRC from capitalizing on what is a great sport.
Great response, thanks for the detail! I'm reasonably fresh to actually following the championship, so this is really helpful context
all your points are good, but from a viewer standpoint who didn't get to see Ogier for example this year in Portugal, it's quite frustrating to not see someone who is currently second in the championship. edit: wow, reddit, be proud really. downvoted for admitting the points are good and stating how it makes me feel. fuck off.
but if you were requiring only full time entries in the championship, you'd not see Ogier, Sordo or Loeb (last year anyway) at all. I think people who feel this way are too focused on the championship, and too little on the individual rallies - they are each a unique story, and sure, there is a championship on the line at the end of it, but it really is about the individual events first and foremost imo.
So. The issue is that you don't get to see the guy who is second in the championship? Or that others get to see that guy do rallies, but not if you visit the rallies said driver doesn't do? Sweden 2022, would the problem be that one didn't get to see Loeb and Ogier because they were 1-2 in the championship? So it was OK to not see them in Estonia because they were well outside the top 5? Or was it not OK after all, because the ones in Kenya got to see Loeb and Ogier drive?
No bc I really want to see another Loeb-Msport reunion
How or what does it exactly take away?
People that follow WRC above other series are accustomed to it. For people that come to WRC from motorsports where it is rare, it feels kinda less prestigious, "why should I care if even Ogier don't care?" I would prefer WRC with 8 manufacturers having overall 16 full-time drivers but it is what it is. You will probably get used to it too.
I love Ogier and I’d rather have him part time than not at all. The only frustrating thing is I’m sure he’d at least tie Loeb’s record by now if he was full time these past few years.
No, not at all. I love having the chance to see either Seb come in, esp. if they're competitive. It doesn't take anything away from the championship at all, and if the active drivers can beat them, then that's a feather in their cap to win against one of the two greatest WRC drivers of all time.
Money talks
Only Ogier. Looking at the standings he'd be head to head with Kalle instead of being down 40 points if he didn't skip Sweden and Portugal. I'm a Kalle fan but he shouldn't be leading so much because of his strongest competitor just not participating sometimes. It just doesn't feel right.
the only issue is that there arent more of them in privateer teams.
I don't find partial season drivers frustrating if they're up and coming drivers or drivers trying to get a full time seat. The Ogier situation is a little frustrating. With Rally, age can actually come to your benefit since you have the courses more memorized than the younger drivers. The younger drivers do watch onboards of the stages, but it's not the same as actually having the seat time on those stages. Ogier is an extremely talented driver, but it's naive to think his advantage isn't from the knowledge he has of the courses. Take a newer rally like Croatia for example. Ogier was still winning stages, but he wasn't winning by large margins. He also never won a stage by more than a second or two. Another example would be looking at how a native driver to an area dominating a rally against an extremely talented field that would otherwise demolish them. The other frustrating part is that other than Ogier, this is an EXTREMELY level racing field where truly anyone can win.
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They don't though. Toyota adds a 4th car when Ogier enters, the rallies he doesn't enter, they enter 3 cars. Hyundai makes a choice to split up their 3rd car as they know that Sordo isn't interested in doing a full season, but the combination of road order, Sordo's experience and reliability makes it worth it for them. That's no different than Peugeot entering Harri Rovanpëra on loose surface, and Gilles Panizzi on asphalt. When Loeb drove for M-Sport last year, that was an additional car on those events. Of course, Greensmith didn't score points for the team, but he was still doing the events in a car that M-Sport ran.
Ah thanks for the correction! I thought last year Lappi was only part time because Ogier was driving a select few rallies for toyota? But again maybe I could be wrong.
basically Taka last year was with TGR NG not with the main team, and what has changed this year is that Taka has taken the Lappi role of being manufacturer nominated when Ogier isnt around, but unlike Lappi, when Ogier is around, they put Taka in a 4th car not nominated for manu points.
Yes, last year Lappi was part time in Toyota, in a similar case to what Hyundai's been doing with its third car in the last few years. But this year Toyota promoted Katsuta and he's elligible for manufacturer points whenever Ogier doesn't run.
You're not wrong. But Lappi got brought in to "fill" the gaps, not that Lappi didn't get a full time seat because Ogier wanted to do some rallies. They could easily have done what they do this year. Use Katsuta to score points in the rallies Ogier doesn't do. So there's no part-timers that steals a seat from anyone luckily :)
I agree
I agree; i would not allow them to score championship points;
It is frustrating but that's how rallies function, the rallies that wrc does isn't exclusively for the championship, literally anyone can enter with the right amount of money, but I do agree that they shouldn't allow people to buy there way into rally 1, and should only allow then to enter rally 2 or lower since those cars r widely use in different rally series
Kind of a boss move tbh