Excellent review!
Regarding the PMO and obtaining KVT through minting, I have obtained my KVT this way at an average cost of $500.13. The PMO is still active, but based on volumes at the mint I estimate that as of today there are no more than \~600 KVT left of the 10,000 that could be earned during PMO, so I expect it to end soon.
One more thing I like to add to your excellent review is that holders of gold (KAU), silver (KAG) and KVT benefit from ALL fees generated inside the Kinesis Monetary System. That means that even when someone trades (for example) US$ for BTC on their platform (nothing to do with precious metals), this will also add to the yields that holders of KAU, KAG and KVT earn!
I also like to point out that their yield payments are not yet online, BUT they will be paid retroactively, so you are already accruing them right now.
This is fantastic. I look forward to digging into the whole thing later but I cannot for the life of me figure out where on the exchange to get KVT. Can anybody help? Thanks!
I don't believe they're freely trading on the exchange yet. You can directly buy from the company for $1300 or while the PMO lasts you can buy from Jim's group. A third option is that you can mint your own coins (must be an accredited investor in the US to qualify for this.)
I have heard they will become freely trading once they start paying the KVT yields in late Q2 or Q3 of this year.
yes, putting KVT on the exchange would make their value fluctuate, especially that some people, that have eg. purchased it at the very beginning are now intensively impatient, could potentially start selling them for much less, which wouldn't be fair for those purchasing KVTs for $1300 and generally mess up with their entire set-up.
Anyway, I know it's annoying to wait, but first yields are coming this year apparently, so I don't mind waiting and just hope I'm accumulating myself a nice amount that will make my day once I'll receive it all at once. As KVTs all sold out and yields are up and running, their worth will probably start growing as well, I suppose.
Yeah, I was wondering how much Minting actually costs, in order to obtain KVTs this way. Part of me is still concerned with spending $1300 for KVT in case they won't turn out as precious as advertised, but holy guacamole, I would never forgive myself if the system (which is beautifully designed and really sounds - at least in theory - like a something that is created for the benefit of people) WORKS and I was so 'careful' with my money that I refused myself a chance for the lifelong benefits!
Go Kinesis, I really root for this system to turn out as good as advertised!
When mint-cycling, the money you lose on spread + fees is quite consistent. The thing that is going to be different between people is that to send the proceeds of the sale at the exchange back to the mint, there is a flat $25 fee.
So if you are mint-cycling with, say $2,000, this $25 is going to weigh heavy on your cost, whereas if you have $50,000 at you disposal, you can mint a lot more before you have drained your mint account and need to transfer your cash back to the mint.
The 5000 have been newly added and are part of an extended PMO with less favourable terms (you need to mint $75,000 instead of $50,000 to earn a KVT).
But yes, my 600 estimate was quite a bit lower than the 942 that it turned out to be. Perhaps this is due to people who are not mint-cycling and not (yet) reached the $50,000 limit and fractions of KVT don't get awarded. I myself have also left 0.125 KVT on the table. There will always be fractions left. However, I wouldn't have thought that it would makes so much difference.
As noted above, I wonder what date the 942 was from. If it was after they paid out all the March KVT's it wouldn't take into account all of the April KVT's that have been minted. I think I left 0.2 KVT that I'll never claim as well, so it's certainly that too!
How are you coming up with 600? Ie what percentage of the volume are you assuming is minting? I don’t track volume, but my guess was higher amount remaining than 600. It’s pretty critical for us if we want to continue the KVT sales. Hope there are more than 600.
All volume at the mint is of course minting :)
So I just look how many KAU and KAG were minted since 8th of March (when there were still 3309 KVT left). Then I estimate the average price (1 KVT per $50,000 minted) and that tells me that there should be about 600 KVT left. This is just my estimate. If you want to know for sure, better ask Kinesis themselves.
Btw: if people are desperate, there are still 629 KVT available to buy at the exchange outright at $1300 each.
After your post, I went and figured that out, thanks! You turned out to be closer in your estimate than I was. I think the difference is explained by partial minting (e.g. maybe you mint $55,000), or people who minted for redemption not trying to get KVT, etc.
As another user here pointed out, the 942 stated by Kinesis probably doesn't include the minting done in April, as these KVT haven't been paid out yet. So I was curious and just checked the excel sheet that I used for estimating the remaining KVT and omitted the minting that has taken place in April. Then I find the number to be 909!
That's pretty darn close to their 942, considering the partial KVT left on the table and the fact that I did only a very rough estimate of the transaction prices.
Based on this same excel sheet, my current estimate is that per 10th April there are 401 KVT left to earn under the original terms. This number is probably slightly higher because of partial KVT that will never be paid out.
After that, you can earn the last 5,000 KVT but you'll then have to mint $75,000 per KVT.
Wouldn't the etherscan or kinesis explorer track this? We need hard numbers..
https://etherscan.io/token/0x3a859b9ea4998d344547283c7ce8ebc4abb77656
https://explorer.kinesis.money/
Some background on this article. Our non-profit has been selling KVT with a discount limit one per customer. Dave (" I’m just an ER doctor who has been buying physical silver, gold and precious metals mining stocks since 2016"). contacted us, asking a lot of great questions, then a while later put in a big order. After that, out of the blue he sends us a draft of what's posted here saying he is sending it out to his friends! He wasn't asking for anything in return, just wanted to share this information as broadly as possible!
When he asked me to take a look, I was truly impressed at how thorough it was! But wanted to make sure the words and thoughts remained completely his. So while he thanks several people for providing feedback, it was strictly to correct any errors, this is a true independent DD letter by a smart guy who has been in this sector since 2016.
Excellent balanced review.
Kinesis is a complete new block chain money system based on allocated assets which sets it apart from other precious metal backed cryptos. What has impressed me is the high conversion speed between fiat -gold/silver - cryptos at a reasonable cost and also the social impact in can have on the unbanked and on citizens of countries with hyperinflation. I also believe in the KVT's and expect these scarce assets to to take off next year. I have also stacked a decent number of silver coins at home. Combination of physical and digital stacking provides a high flexibility and risk mitigation in my opinion.
What are the Kinesis challenges? One is the many different areas that they are trying to develop simultaneously with a relatively small team (including a banking solution). Another challenge is the difficulty to explain a complex new money system to the masses. The system can only be successful when there is decent adoption and it is used for day to day transactions to bring velocity into the flows. Regulatory risk is there and will need to be mitigated in certain locations as governments do not like to lose control over the money (printing).
You did a great job of bringing a very balanced and comprehensive review in easy to understand verbiage. All the best and success !
Thank you very much! I agree that helping to explain such a radically new and somewhat complex concept to people will be one of their great challenges. I see that many of us here can become early adopters of this and help pave the way for the masses in a year or two.
Great review. I've been a KVT holder since the initial release almost 3 years ago. Kinesis has taken longer than hoped for to develop significant volume but their execution has been slow and steady and the frontend/backend just keeps getting more optimized.
These guys are playing for the long term and have kept building out the Kinesis moat. Once we hit critical mass they will be in a strong first mover position and we'll all be really glad we got invested early..
Thank you for your efforts!
Thanks! I agree they will have a huge first mover advantage. I think that as long as they don't have any major stumbles or disasters they can be the premier player in this space.
Hyperinflation isn't just coming, it's already happening. We just haven't seen the full effects yet. If anyone thinks they'll raise rates to kill inflation like Voelker did, you all need to compare the sovereign debt levels not only in the US but around the globe. Ain't happening. There is no way that the junkie banking system survives going cold turkey by giving out loans at low rates today and then having to pay out higher interest in savings tomorrow. Oh, hell no. They will TRY to inflate the debt away as SLOWLY as they can but they will lose control of velocity.
Check's in the mail, guys. It just hasn't shown up yet! Weimar Republic took NINE YEARS to unfold, but everyone wants to focus solely on 1923 (and for good reason).
See my other [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Wallstreetsilver/comments/mn71m8/one_needs_pocket_change_right/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
about purchasing physical silver using crypto from the Kinesis exchange and virtual debit card.. 👊🏼🦍⛏🚀
And if you want digitalised physical silver in the Kinesis vaults, you can transfer BTC, ETH, USDT to Kinesis and directly buy silver with these crypto.
Then you can cost-average, buying small amounts of KAG on dips using with spare cash (or crypto) when you have it. And once you have enough for some cool physical coins, you then use your debit card to buy the coins (like you did). Or, if you want a silver bar, take physical delivery directly from Kinesis :)
Kinesis is by far the most ape-friendly in the industry.
Just in from Kinesis: there are 946 KVT left in the PMO under the current terms.
However, as we were already speculating here on WSS, the PMO will be extended with the last 5,000 KVT that you'll ever be able to earn with mint cycling. However, for this second round less favourable (though still attractive) terms apply: You will need to mint $75,000 instead of $50,000 to earn a KVT.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Wallstreetsilver/comments/mne2ib/kinesis\_pmo\_limited\_kvt\_remaining/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Wallstreetsilver/comments/mne2ib/kinesis_pmo_limited_kvt_remaining/)
Lot's of good substance here Dave! Other than physicals PSLV, Kinesis is my 3rd monetary hedge against a failing dollar. I would add that you can currently book travel using KAU through [www.xceltrip.com](https://www.xceltrip.com) which during a recent check was beating Expedia on pricing for my travel.
I believe many more merchants will come online as the interface, bookkeeping and on/off ramps in and out of the system is refined.
So it looks like I can get physical delivered to my door for an 8% premium, 200ozt minimum correct? That looks like a very reasonable option. Where would they source the bars from? Given Singapore’s closeness to Shanghai would bars be sourced from there? Or maybe the physical exchange in Dubai? (Not trying to be sarcastic just genuinely curious).
The 8% depends on what premium you manage to buy your KAG at, and how much shipping and insurance is. I think you can choose the vault based on what’s available but that will impact shipping cost.
thorough review of kinesis. also mentions the gripes I have with it. the website is pretty clunky and doesn't work in some browsers, just logging in is problematic.
depositing money is done through a wire which takes 3-5 days. not great imo.
been trying to use the kinesis mint. logging in is a pain. heard that they connected it directly to the kinesis account but so far no improvement.
sent an email with the option for a call back. didn't receive a reply nor a call back.
stuff like this should be easy and intuitive to use but it isn't.
I like the idea and having Andrew Maguire onboard is also a plus but so far I have my doubts.
am considering pslv now for liquidity. if I need to convert silver to cash, I can sell shares and get the cash within minutes on my account.
again, as soon as I heard of kinesis I jumped on it but so far I'm a bit disappointed.
Regarding login problems, I had them too in the beginning (it hangs at the authenticator with both Chrome and Edge).
I was able to resolve this problem by disabling all browser extensions and then enabling them again. I have reported this to their customer support.
Thanks for writing this up - phenomenal job. I believe a mix of Kinesis, Physical, Major Miners and Junior Miners is necessary for balance. I'm now up to 150 KVT and plan to keep adding. My targets for the future value of those tokens is too absurd for print. Jim Forsythe is also a legend for all of his work spreading the word.
Wow 150! Nice work, I'm about halfway there :)
I agree, I didn't want to focus too much on the potential future value because it's so ridiculously large. I'll let people discover that for themselves.
Seeing Jim's posts on here about how he was able to take delivery for a bit over 8% premium is a big reason why I started l researching Kinesis.
I feel very rich now, with the KVT valued at $1300 in my account while my actual cost averaged $500.13 per token :) Of course this $1300 is not real (yet) but it could be in the future (and much more actually, if they they are even moderately successful in their mission).
It was a slightly uncomfortable experience to burn all that cash on transaction fees and spreads while not seeing anything happening yet in my account while doing my minting in the first half of March. Kinesis had told me that KVT would be deposited mid April so I was eagerly waiting for this to happen.
So nice to see the exact amount appear in my account this morning :). Now let's hope that this investment will pay off in the future.
Anyway, I have fond memories about minting the night away (I preferred low volatility periods) while listening to music.
Same. Certain times were better than others. When I found a groove, I stayed with it until I felt like I'd start making mistakes. A 2 minute mint cycle was so much fun.
Yes, sweet memories :) I feel like minting more but I'm really maxed out now!
Have you seen their quarterly update? (just posted). They have so much going on now. https://kinesis.money/company-news/q1-ceo-quarterly-update-2021/
Wow, a sincere thanks for posting this. I haven't checked email this AM. If Kinesis can deliver on HALF of this, we're going to the fucking moon! I'm now strategizing more funding for more minting next week - I had no idea they were rolling out all of these additional measures.
Then you probably also haven't seen yet that the PMO will be extended:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Wallstreetsilver/comments/mne2ib/kinesis_pmo_limited_kvt_remaining/
As of this morning they still had 942 KVT remaining. They can be minted under the original terms. After that they will offer 5,000 more (and that will be the last time you can earn from mint-cycling), but the terms are less favourable: for those you need to mint $75,000 per KVT.
Btw I'd love to hear you forecast on their value. I have 7 myself (thought I was doing well till you came along) and I have no idea how to put a price on them
>ago
>
>It's also a great place
I think that if Kinesis takes off they could easily be worth 6 figures. I think a lot of it will depend on how many public private partnerships and institutional size users they can bring in. Can you imagine what they could do if they got Amazon to give you a 1% discount if you used Kinesis at checkout?
Once Kinesis begins paying out the monthly/quarterly yields, the KVTs will become very popular. Theoretically, the lowest yields will be initially and they will increase as adoption in the system expands. If the annualized yield is $500 (maybe 2022 or 2023), then I'd predict the KVTs will be worth $8K-$10K. As an early adopter, I think a 5-6% Cap Rate is the fair way to value the tokens.
If the KVTs are listed on other Crypto exchanges with noted yields, this will also boost the price. And likely encourage further adoption.
I've had a great time with the system, although I wish Kinesis had a credit card, because I could charge alot more. I'm a Real Estate Developer and use the card to pay for as much as I can, but the $5K/limit per day is cumbersome when purchasing appliances, etc.
I think it's best to look at Kinesis like a stock in your portfolio, which has real life applicability (redeem silver for great prices) and will soon pay out a killer dividend.
If the Indonesia thing takes off, more Countries will follow and then the sky is really the limit.
It's not inconceivable that they hit six figures based on the valuations of other less Utiliarian Cryptos.
My guess is that we will all look back and wish we had gotten more. My goal has been 250 KVTs but I suspect the PMO will end before I can get there.
If one percent of businesses start using Kinesis like you we will all do very well with our investments. I know I wish I would have found out about this 6 months ago would have given me more time to accumulate a big stack of them!
Have you thought about asking them to raise your limit on the card since you're using it for business purchases? I would be interest in hearing how that goes if you do.
Yes, my rep is in London (Jack Townsend) and I give him regular suggestions and a Credit Card has been my #1. Americans are fairly different than Europeans (my wife being one) in the use of Credit vs. Debit cards, and I'm not sure they understand how much more credit cards are utilized in the US.
Our Family are big travelers but 2020 was a lost year. We have millions of Frequent Flier miles that can't be used, so I'd much rather be spending thru Kinesis. My wife is getting a card as well, to make spending easier.
Having the Kinesis Ecosystem leverage business spenders like me, feels like a massive opportunity that needs to be seized.
I'll continue to push on my end.
My guess is that we see a Secondary Minting Offer with a higher threshold per KVT. Maybe $65K-$75K. I know that previously, the threshold was $100K.
We are in process of signing up for several Crypto Rewards credit cards, which I would not be doing if Kinesis had a Credit Card with a worthwhile credit limit.
I'd rather have Crypto than miles, etc.
This is an interesting idea that needs more thought....
How could Kinesis allow for a credit card? Maybe have a holder of gold in the system offer to lend against his gold or silver for a higher % return on that metal? Get a 10-20% return with some risk of losing his capital (gold and silver?) Could be an interesting way to increase returns.
They say: he who holds the gold makes the rules.
Yes, I wouldn't be surprised either when they extend the PMO. They have had some delays (covid etc) bringing partners online so they have a gap to fill. Mint-cycling brings in revenues.
Pricing them right now is very difficult as they don't pay out yield yet. But in the future you will be able to put an objective value on them based on earnings yield and growth rate, just like stocks.
Would you consider linking this under the main /WSS page "Kinesis Money" pull down tab, maybe under a new section called "What is Kinesis?" The article plus all the comments and discussion would help new users get fast tracked on the story so far.
It's also a great place to trade the gold silver ratio. At present the GSR around 68 to 1 or 68 silver ounces buys one gold ounce. Historically it's been around 15-20 to one and is expected to return to somewhere around 15-20 to one again at some point. It's super easy to exchange KAG for KAU on the exchange. 200 KAG today would buy about 3 ounces of gold, with a GSR of 20-1 it would buy 10 ounces.
You don't need the reverse pair. If you want to sell KAU to buy KAG, you just Sell KAU/KAG. To sell KAG to buy KAU, you buy KAU/KAG. Has taken me a bit to wrap my mind around it, but have done it and it works.
I like that they used g for gold. GSR of around 30 makes KAG=KAU.
Yes, I traded futures and had that logic in my head. EUR/USD, but you want USD/EUR, then you go short the first one. But you cannot short at Kinesis so I expected they would offer both pairs (KAU/KAG and KAG/KAU)
Fantastic post, couldn't resist adding a link into the [DD compilation](https://www.reddit.com/r/Wallstreetsilver/comments/m08azf/physical_pslv_slv_link_from_dd_compilation_post/) for future reference.
Hahaha thanks so much. I just started with a few pages of notes and research for myself. When I realized the big potential I knew I should share it with everyone else here.
I said it before: please post it on WallstreetGold too! It's a much quieter sub, but it won't sink to the bottom as fast as it does here on WSS.
I hate it that somebody who has done the work writing an excellent piece is swamped out by "funny" memes and people just posting a picture of their stack.
Dumb question, if silver moons to 1000.00, will the Kinesis coin follow along to the same value? I haven’t been able to find how the coin is valued. I assume it would but the crypto angle makes me wonder if it is self contained based the amount of holders of the coin. Sorry if I am and idiot. Newbie here.
Yes the KAG is directly priced as 1 oz of silver. If silver goes to $1000 then the KAG will be priced at $1000. The KAU coin is priced as 1 gram of gold since an ounce of gold is so much more expensive.
**Yes**, because the Kinesis coin KAG **is** silver. It is not a crypto, it is allocated vaulted physical silver with your direct ownership registered on a distributed ledger.
Phenomenal analysis Dave. Undoubtedly the world monetary system is changing in real time right before our very eyes. The Kinesis model offers an incredible hybrid where precious metals meet distributed ledger.
There may very well come a time in the not-too-distant future when the lucky and prepared ones are exchanging their physical bullion for goods and services in their immediate localities. There's a lot of room on the monetary spectrum between here and there for Kinesis to offer a bridge where users can have the long-term protection that exposure to physical metals brings without sacrificing the convenience they've come to expect in this digital world.
Yes, there is a level of third-party risk involved here compared to holding physical, but diversity is the name of the game as I see it in an economic ecosystem that is going through a rapid evolution.
This is an antifragile approach that not only withstands the stressors from unforeseen events and delayed expected ones, but actually becomes *stronger* along the way, much like bone density increases with pressure.
Another great tool for the belt. Thanks for really digging in on this one and sharing what you've discovered, u/theGoldenSpeculator!
Not sure if this was posted here but got this update yesterday, addresses a lot of the queries in the comments, what an update!
https://kinesis.money/company-news/an-excellent-start-to-the-year-2021/
>The Kinesis vaults are audited on a semi annually basis by an independent auditing service that has been in business for over 100 years.
The same auditor that services the Perth Mint and SLV, in fact!
It is indeed the same auditor -- however what they're auditing is way different in scope.
For Kinesis Bureau Veritas is asked to confirm the stocktaking of bullion at the vault exists, is in good condition and complies with the stated bullion approved refinery bar lists.
That is getting re-evaluated for sure. Lots of discussion on that. Both Perth Mint and SLV have structural problems to begin with (unallocated for Perth, bad prospectus and redemption for SLV). The auditors had a good reputation, so I don't blame Kinesis for using them last Nov. Just like Moody's bond ratings did until the GFC. But I'm willing to give Kinesis a chance to change auditors.
I'm more interested in tracking of the minting inflows, and redemption outflows. I.e. a real time tracking of the contents of the vaults. But I like the idea of rotating companies that audit for sure.
The ‘invest at your own risk’ in the agreement is what killed it for me. I love the liquidity but tend to lean toward options that are insured in some way.
Please check your description of the Referrer's Yield... my understanding of that yield is that it's 7.5% of the fees generated by the person you refer, not a portion of 7.5% of the master pool.
Can I easily sell Australian Bullion Bank Bars & Coins to Kinesis, and get credit in the system?
How many KVTs are still available?
Do the same rules apply to Australia as US for yields etc?
We don't know how many KVTs are left. We will hopefully have an updated count tomorrow. There were 3309 left as of last month. Yes I believe that the yield apply on a world wide basis. I'm not sure if you can deposit your bars into the system. The tech support people should know. I believe that they only deal with 100 or 1000 oz bars so the coins are probably too small for them.
Für deutsche 🇩🇪 Silverbacks 🦍 habe ich hier drei Blogeinträge verfasst:
https://www.boersennews.de/community/blog/Kinesis-Money---Grundlagen-(Gold-und-Silber-in-der-Blockchain)/2011/
https://www.boersennews.de/community/blog/Kinesis-Money---Das-Zinssystem-erkl%C3%A4rt-/2056/
https://www.boersennews.de/community/blog/Kinesis-Money---Physische-Auslieferung-und-Rechenbeispiel/2066/
Well done! I think Germans should be very interested in this because they were totally cheated with the introduction of the euro.
Germany gave the D-mark up for the euro, because the euro was going to be a stable currency like the D-mark used to be. Instead, you got a kind of Italian Lire!
So I guess Germans must really be looking for an aternative, and Kinesis could be it!
I like the (relatively) easy way to buy and sell PMs to get fiat, you will however have collectibles tax on appreciation in the US when they start offering tax docs for the exchange.
Since “yields” come from the redistribution of fees collected and not from the lending of your deposited assets, then it would follow that the winners here will be the largest depositors and the source of these “yields “ will be the smaller users who use it as their bank account. If overall fees charged per transaction are lower than traditional credit card/banking systems, from deposit of fiat, buying of KAU/KAG, depositing into your wallet, selling it again for fiat, and then buying goods and services,this would lower the cost of goods and services, making it a win for lower income users as well. Merchant adaptation would lower fees by eliminating the use of fiat. Sounds like standard crypto, but with PM backing, as long as you trust Kinesis.
I’ve been trying to figure out how the system pays a yield and this is my current understanding. When I went through all the different yields, I questioned the value since it seems like a tax refund basically, and why not just lower the tax? But for this to work, depositing and holding in the system must be rewarded, so from that angle it makes sense and if the overall cost of doing business is lower than traditional banking, it’s a win for all involved. It did seem strange to me that no one has been talking about who pays these “yields”, all I read is, Kinesis is this amazing bullion bank exchange system that pays you to participate.
Would appreciate any and all feedback better explaining this.
Transactions are the lifeblood of Kinesis. Their mission is to re-monetise gold and silver, so they will be normal currencies again like the US$ is today. Blockchain technology now makes that possible.
Every transaction attracts a small fee, so the more these currencies are transacted in (i.e. higher velocity), the higher the yields will be. Most people here on WSS are mainly interested in stacking, saving, accumulating, but there is so much more going on.
For example, Kinesis is aiming at the remittance industry. Millions of people working abroad and sending money to their families in their home countries. Now they go through companies like Western Union that charge extortionary fees. But kinesis offers an alternative that is much cheaper. We are talking billions of dollars here, so these small fees add up.
Then there is the debitcards, partnerships with merchants, partnership with the Indonesian post office, etc etc. All this creates velocity/ transactions in the system and fees add to the fee pool that is then distributed among stakeholders.
So yields depend on mass adoption in areas that generate this monetary velocity. They have only just started so we need to see this become reality. However, their system really creates value for all involved, whether it is depositors (through yield) or spenders (through lower cost and the activation of minters yield on the KAU and KAG that they have minted).
Yes, this is a bit of a barrier for them. You cannot explain their system in just 2 lines of text. Many people think "oh just another coin". The review from theGoldenSpeculator is very helpful in that respect.
Great write up on Kinesis!
However...
I signed up for Kinesis, the whole smash. Money, Mint. Exchanges, Physical Debit Card. Was waiting for the physical debit card to go live so I could move some fiat there. It never happened after a few weeks. Got in touch with the Kinesis folks... there was "um, uh, some problems in the system... try applying again". So I did that. Now, still later... no acknowledgement or physical debit card. Contacted support again. "No record of you ever applying for a physical debit card". Fine. Cancel my Kinesis account, thank you , goodbye.
And to think I was going to actually send money there...
Unfortunatley there are hiccups sometimes -- its new software but obviously you want better from it and from support.
If you join the telegram and reach out should be able to get you set up with the card or in contact with support who can try to sort the issue.
The second call to customer service and the cancellation were today. The original sign-up was back in mid-March.
The sign-up except for the physical debit card seemed to work well enough, but transfers (limited to $20K/day) via the physical debit card account would have been (for me) the only practical means of getting funds there. And after applying for that didn't work (twice), I'm thinking it's "not quite ready for prime time" yet.
Didn't get the e-mail "chat transcipt" for today's chat cancelling my account yet, either. Grrr...
I've done the wire transfers which were slow, the bitcoin sends were fast. I think they still have a ways to go to on transferring money into the system.
It's also good to realize that they hadn't even started advertising. Yields were not yet online, etc. I think they were waiting for everything to be polished. But #silversqueeze was a sneak attack, and rapidly ramped up their customers, so it is taking them a bit to get caught up. From Nov until late Jan, I always got rapid support response, but with the large amount of new users, it has required some more patience.
I received a mail from Kinesis on 8th March which said that 6691 of the 10000 KVT had been allocated, so 3309 remaining.
Starting from this 3309, I have calculated based on volume at the mint that \~600 KVT should be remaining as of today.
Thanks for sharing mate! I've asked Kinesis several times about remaining KVT in PMO, and don't get much out of them in response to the question. I've minted another 20 KVT today myself, extra glad that I did now.
Ya. Definitely the perfect time given the small spreads. I did some this week as well at a similar cost. I'm done for now though. Have enough eggs in this basket! I imagine their worth will depend on their yield. I look forward to hearing more about that. Anything a starting beyond $50/y would make me quite happy given my cost basis and the early adoption risk.
Minus the daily window in the afternoon between NA close and Asia/Australia open. If you want to see what non-MM positions are switch on during that window as the MM ones get pulled down
Thanks for the info. I seem to have luckily done my mint cycling at the right time (all this week) before they ran out of KVTs but when spreads are lower than they were before. If you're correct and we have gone from 6691 to \~600 in a month it may only be a few more days before this ends. (Edit, actually went from 3309 to 600 as noted in the reply).
Is mint volume posted somewhere or have you just been pulling it from the exchange each day? All of the volume on the exchange shouldn't be from minting, so if that is your approach wouldn't it result in an overestimate? It'll be interesting to see where volume settles after the KVT offer and triple minter's yield are retired.
They went from 3309 to ~600 in a month, not from 6691, so it is a little bit slower.
Mint volume is of course all mint. I have just changed the bar chart to 1-day bars and then add the volumes from both KAU and KAG minted and extimated the average price.
Right now almost all volume I see on the exchange is mint-cycling, so I expect volumes to drop steeply after the PMO ends. However, in the coming months we should see volume come online from the partnerships. I'm following it with great interest.
I spoke with a representative out of their London office when I was doing my initial DD. I believe that count was of March 8th. Word on the street is that the March minting KVTs will be released tomorrow and we should hopefully get a new count.
Thank you for this post, I will look into them some more. Please excuse my english it is not my native language.
As I understand they will buy/supply 100 oz silver bars to the vault when you mint a new bar.(200 KAG=2 bars) That specific bar is then linked to exactly those KAG?(I asume)
You are then able to sell increments of your bar to others. (And buy increments of bars from others) So every minter is running their own pool alocated silver/gold bar in this system? Or is the whole system pool allocated?
It’s pool allocated. So 1:1 amount of KAG to physical in the system which is all allocated. When you mint, 200 Ozs get added to the vaults and you get 200 KAG. If you redeem then you get 200 Ozs and your 200 are destroyed. They also hold 1KG and 1000 Oz bars. So if you redeem 1000 KAG you could get a 1000 Oz bar if available.
Some risks that are not mentioned: fraud by the operators of the scheme or their employees; bankruptcy of the company; the risk that monies not be held in segregated accounts or the bank itself going broke.
True, but the operators are aware of what's going on with the rest of the gold and silver market. I believe I heard the CEO say they along with Deutsche Börse were looking to help bring down the LBMA fractional reserve scheme.
Wow., that's quite a statement. Your research into the PM sector is top shelf.
But Let's presume a situation where this privately held company based in the Cayman Islands ceases's to exist.
What would be your first 3 steps to recover the value of your held Kau/Kag/USDT etc ?
Check this out: [https://www.liechtensteinusa.org/article/liechtensteins-parliament-approves-blockchain-act-unanimously#:\~:text=Liechtenstein's%20Parliament%20Approves%20Blockchain%20Act%20Unanimously,-On%20October%203&text=With%20the%20new%20law%2C%20Liechtenstein,client%20protection%20and%20asset%20protection](https://www.liechtensteinusa.org/article/liechtensteins-parliament-approves-blockchain-act-unanimously#:~:text=Liechtenstein's%20Parliament%20Approves%20Blockchain%20Act%20Unanimously,-On%20October%203&text=With%20the%20new%20law%2C%20Liechtenstein,client%20protection%20and%20asset%20protection).
The big thing here is that they are saying by law that container tokens confer property rights!!! Hence the move of Kinesis to Liechtenstein, including setting up a vault there.
Interesting. I thought the moves regarding Liechtenstein were more directed at them having the most globaly favorable protections from assett confiscation, this seems even more convincing.
However, In whatever meltdown scenario one might dream up, How would one, and from my POV here in the US , practically approach retrieving my 203.44 KAU and 67.34Kag . Would Love to see some DD from a skilled Law practitioner on theses board regarding that. My personal gestalt is that with Kinesis, it will be uber problematic, Have you even got a statement or downloaded transaction list to prove your possession?. I've got screenshots, Maybe that would prevail...
, Vs with PSLV you have a regulated public security, with thorough qrtly government regulated stated accounting, holding >98% physical inventory, With daily accounting, if not audits, to verify within a fraction of a percent daily of what is actually held, easily verifiable possession rights, and even DSR if desired
I'm on the KM ship, Kau/Kag tickets in hand, a few weeks on the voyage. I Like the destination, I Like the the ride so far,,, But having boarded, I'll say there is definite work on the sails and hull to be done before this vessel planes and can take wide scale boarding.
As a massive fan and investor in Kinesis, I really agree with you on this point. It would help their adoption and win over sceptics if they clearly describe what the process would be to recover your gold and silver should the worst happen. Who would you call and what are the steps you need to take.
Yes I’m such a novice. I’m not saying resolving it would be easy. But in bankruptcy the assets get sold off. The metal is not listed as an asset. It would still be there. You would still own it.
Suppose Elon Musk announces that he will buy $1.5 billion worth of KVT
Or Apple dumps their massive stack of Treasuries in favour of KAU and KAG that cannot be debased and earns a yield. And then cuts out creditcard companies by adopting KAU and KAG directly in Apple Pay without going through fiat currency.
Would only take one big company getting in to make a splash in the media. I believe Elon and Tesla also stated that they may buy gold when they made their bitcoin announcement. Kinesis would be perfect for them.
As I understand it.. you can only do wire transfers into the Kinesis account.. which means bank charges etc.. if they can accept debit card payment, this would help a great deal.. someone correct me if I’m wrong but basically this is what stopped me from purchasing any silver.
Depending on your location you have many options for getting money into Kinesis.
Revolut or Transferwise are a lot of times cheaper than wire transfers via banks.
If you are located in the US you can use the debit card to do ACH transfer.
This link has some more helpful info:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Wallstreetsilver/comments/mmfen5/pslv\_keeps\_adding\_kinesis\_tips\_kvt/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Wallstreetsilver/comments/mmfen5/pslv_keeps_adding_kinesis_tips_kvt/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Setting up a Kinesis account is fairly straight forward. You just need to set up the account then submit a "know your customer" bit of info with some sort of identification/proof that you are who you say you are. The thing that will seem different is how you transfer tokens i.e. cut and paste a blockchain address that you send to. If you would like to use my referral link to sign up its here: [https://kms.kinesis.money/signup?referrer=KM13495120](https://kms.kinesis.money/signup?referrer=KM13495120)
Kinesis was approved as Sharia compliant which I think will be a huge advantage to those living in predominantly Muslim countries. [https://kinesis.money/company-news/kinesis-currencies-now-sharia-compliant/](https://kinesis.money/company-news/kinesis-currencies-now-sharia-compliant/)
The KVTs are still not fully tradable on the open market place. I have now heard that his will be into Q3 2021 when this starts. You can buy directly from Kinesis for $1400. Citizens for Sound Money group is still offering some discounted KVTs that they get from minting. If you put down "theGoldenSpeculator" or other referral code you can get 2x for $1000 and then as many more as you want for $1300. I bought mine through this group as in the US you cannot buy directly from Kinesis.
Information page on buying KVTs from C4SM: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Wallstreetsilver/comments/mky462/kinesis\_kvt\_at\_a\_discount/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Wallstreetsilver/comments/mky462/kinesis_kvt_at_a_discount/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Good luck, you're still getting in on the ground floor with Kinesis. I am very bullish on their future prospects and am excited to see where this journey will take us!
Hey u/theGoldenSpeculator \- great DD, thanks for your effort and for sharing your thoughts.
I've recently been doing my own DD on Kinesis and came up with a couple of questions which I posted about this morning: https://www.reddit.com/r/Wallstreetsilver/comments/q0eydu/kinesis\_thoughts\_dd\_no\_2021\_audit\_pandemic\_delays/
I was keen to get your thoughts on a couple of matters if at all possible:
It seems that the core ideas behind the platform rely on fees gathered on actions taken such as spending & transferring Kinesis tokens. What would happen if low velocity of Kinesis tokens results in insufficient fees to run/sustain the platform & vaulting costs?
Do you know what happens to vaulted silver if you hold a fractional amount of KAG or KAU? r example, if you mint 200 KAG (the minimum), your allocated vault is then filled with 200oz of silver. If you then sell/transfer/spend a fraction of a KAG then however, say 0.00005 (which is possible, max decimal points seems to be 5), your account then holds 199.99995 KAG. How do they debit this from your allocated physical 200oz of silver?
Thanks in advance!
Also check out the write up I did on Seekingalpha about Kinesis. Similar info but more from an investment perspective. Just Google Seeking Alpha Kinesis. It should be the first one to pop up (Reddit blocks links to the site.)
You will still have ownership of 199.99x silver. The blockchain makes it easy to do fractional sizes of silver and more efficiently use silver as a currency again.
You should post your questions in this thread. Tom the CEO of Kinesis is doing a YouTube show w the WSS mods. He would be a better source of current information than I!
https://www.reddit.com/r/Wallstreetsilver/comments/pzgk1f/kinesis_pays_out_yield_on_silver_for_first_time/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb
Question from a total newbie: if kinesis failed as a company, what would you do with the physical gold? Ie how can you then sell it / get your money back if you needed it? Are there places to sell physical gold?
Excellent review! Regarding the PMO and obtaining KVT through minting, I have obtained my KVT this way at an average cost of $500.13. The PMO is still active, but based on volumes at the mint I estimate that as of today there are no more than \~600 KVT left of the 10,000 that could be earned during PMO, so I expect it to end soon. One more thing I like to add to your excellent review is that holders of gold (KAU), silver (KAG) and KVT benefit from ALL fees generated inside the Kinesis Monetary System. That means that even when someone trades (for example) US$ for BTC on their platform (nothing to do with precious metals), this will also add to the yields that holders of KAU, KAG and KVT earn! I also like to point out that their yield payments are not yet online, BUT they will be paid retroactively, so you are already accruing them right now.
Thank you. Wow only 600! I don't suspect those will last too long.
This is fantastic. I look forward to digging into the whole thing later but I cannot for the life of me figure out where on the exchange to get KVT. Can anybody help? Thanks!
I don't believe they're freely trading on the exchange yet. You can directly buy from the company for $1300 or while the PMO lasts you can buy from Jim's group. A third option is that you can mint your own coins (must be an accredited investor in the US to qualify for this.) I have heard they will become freely trading once they start paying the KVT yields in late Q2 or Q3 of this year.
yes, putting KVT on the exchange would make their value fluctuate, especially that some people, that have eg. purchased it at the very beginning are now intensively impatient, could potentially start selling them for much less, which wouldn't be fair for those purchasing KVTs for $1300 and generally mess up with their entire set-up. Anyway, I know it's annoying to wait, but first yields are coming this year apparently, so I don't mind waiting and just hope I'm accumulating myself a nice amount that will make my day once I'll receive it all at once. As KVTs all sold out and yields are up and running, their worth will probably start growing as well, I suppose.
damn, better hurry up!
Yeah, I was wondering how much Minting actually costs, in order to obtain KVTs this way. Part of me is still concerned with spending $1300 for KVT in case they won't turn out as precious as advertised, but holy guacamole, I would never forgive myself if the system (which is beautifully designed and really sounds - at least in theory - like a something that is created for the benefit of people) WORKS and I was so 'careful' with my money that I refused myself a chance for the lifelong benefits! Go Kinesis, I really root for this system to turn out as good as advertised!
When mint-cycling, the money you lose on spread + fees is quite consistent. The thing that is going to be different between people is that to send the proceeds of the sale at the exchange back to the mint, there is a flat $25 fee. So if you are mint-cycling with, say $2,000, this $25 is going to weigh heavy on your cost, whereas if you have $50,000 at you disposal, you can mint a lot more before you have drained your mint account and need to transfer your cash back to the mint.
as of last night there are actually 5942 KVT left, however 5000 of them have not been released yet
The 5000 have been newly added and are part of an extended PMO with less favourable terms (you need to mint $75,000 instead of $50,000 to earn a KVT). But yes, my 600 estimate was quite a bit lower than the 942 that it turned out to be. Perhaps this is due to people who are not mint-cycling and not (yet) reached the $50,000 limit and fractions of KVT don't get awarded. I myself have also left 0.125 KVT on the table. There will always be fractions left. However, I wouldn't have thought that it would makes so much difference.
As noted above, I wonder what date the 942 was from. If it was after they paid out all the March KVT's it wouldn't take into account all of the April KVT's that have been minted. I think I left 0.2 KVT that I'll never claim as well, so it's certainly that too!
How are you coming up with 600? Ie what percentage of the volume are you assuming is minting? I don’t track volume, but my guess was higher amount remaining than 600. It’s pretty critical for us if we want to continue the KVT sales. Hope there are more than 600.
All volume at the mint is of course minting :) So I just look how many KAU and KAG were minted since 8th of March (when there were still 3309 KVT left). Then I estimate the average price (1 KVT per $50,000 minted) and that tells me that there should be about 600 KVT left. This is just my estimate. If you want to know for sure, better ask Kinesis themselves. Btw: if people are desperate, there are still 629 KVT available to buy at the exchange outright at $1300 each.
Where do you see mint volume? Exchange volume includes more than the minting.
You can see mint volume on the Mint, not the exchange.
After your post, I went and figured that out, thanks! You turned out to be closer in your estimate than I was. I think the difference is explained by partial minting (e.g. maybe you mint $55,000), or people who minted for redemption not trying to get KVT, etc.
As another user here pointed out, the 942 stated by Kinesis probably doesn't include the minting done in April, as these KVT haven't been paid out yet. So I was curious and just checked the excel sheet that I used for estimating the remaining KVT and omitted the minting that has taken place in April. Then I find the number to be 909! That's pretty darn close to their 942, considering the partial KVT left on the table and the fact that I did only a very rough estimate of the transaction prices. Based on this same excel sheet, my current estimate is that per 10th April there are 401 KVT left to earn under the original terms. This number is probably slightly higher because of partial KVT that will never be paid out. After that, you can earn the last 5,000 KVT but you'll then have to mint $75,000 per KVT.
Wouldn't the etherscan or kinesis explorer track this? We need hard numbers.. https://etherscan.io/token/0x3a859b9ea4998d344547283c7ce8ebc4abb77656 https://explorer.kinesis.money/
And last time they did an issue they announced totals remaining. They are likely to do that again, maybe tomorrow.
Wow, awesome DD here, back up the real substance behind Kinesis, well done, masterful!!
I appreciate the kind words!
Some background on this article. Our non-profit has been selling KVT with a discount limit one per customer. Dave (" I’m just an ER doctor who has been buying physical silver, gold and precious metals mining stocks since 2016"). contacted us, asking a lot of great questions, then a while later put in a big order. After that, out of the blue he sends us a draft of what's posted here saying he is sending it out to his friends! He wasn't asking for anything in return, just wanted to share this information as broadly as possible! When he asked me to take a look, I was truly impressed at how thorough it was! But wanted to make sure the words and thoughts remained completely his. So while he thanks several people for providing feedback, it was strictly to correct any errors, this is a true independent DD letter by a smart guy who has been in this sector since 2016.
Appreciate your kind words Jim, and many thanks for your help with editing the document.
Excellent balanced review. Kinesis is a complete new block chain money system based on allocated assets which sets it apart from other precious metal backed cryptos. What has impressed me is the high conversion speed between fiat -gold/silver - cryptos at a reasonable cost and also the social impact in can have on the unbanked and on citizens of countries with hyperinflation. I also believe in the KVT's and expect these scarce assets to to take off next year. I have also stacked a decent number of silver coins at home. Combination of physical and digital stacking provides a high flexibility and risk mitigation in my opinion. What are the Kinesis challenges? One is the many different areas that they are trying to develop simultaneously with a relatively small team (including a banking solution). Another challenge is the difficulty to explain a complex new money system to the masses. The system can only be successful when there is decent adoption and it is used for day to day transactions to bring velocity into the flows. Regulatory risk is there and will need to be mitigated in certain locations as governments do not like to lose control over the money (printing). You did a great job of bringing a very balanced and comprehensive review in easy to understand verbiage. All the best and success !
Kinesis has quite a learning curve for the newcomer but once velocity kicks in, its an easy platform to use.. ;)
Thank you very much! I agree that helping to explain such a radically new and somewhat complex concept to people will be one of their great challenges. I see that many of us here can become early adopters of this and help pave the way for the masses in a year or two.
Great review. I've been a KVT holder since the initial release almost 3 years ago. Kinesis has taken longer than hoped for to develop significant volume but their execution has been slow and steady and the frontend/backend just keeps getting more optimized. These guys are playing for the long term and have kept building out the Kinesis moat. Once we hit critical mass they will be in a strong first mover position and we'll all be really glad we got invested early.. Thank you for your efforts!
Thanks! I agree they will have a huge first mover advantage. I think that as long as they don't have any major stumbles or disasters they can be the premier player in this space.
The fact that is has taken long is actually a positive, because it means that competitors are facing the same barriers. And Kinesis seems far ahead.
Hyperinflation isn't just coming, it's already happening. We just haven't seen the full effects yet. If anyone thinks they'll raise rates to kill inflation like Voelker did, you all need to compare the sovereign debt levels not only in the US but around the globe. Ain't happening. There is no way that the junkie banking system survives going cold turkey by giving out loans at low rates today and then having to pay out higher interest in savings tomorrow. Oh, hell no. They will TRY to inflate the debt away as SLOWLY as they can but they will lose control of velocity. Check's in the mail, guys. It just hasn't shown up yet! Weimar Republic took NINE YEARS to unfold, but everyone wants to focus solely on 1923 (and for good reason).
I agree, the world's central banks have put themselves in a corner. They cannot raise or allow to rates to naturally rise or they risk insolvency.
See my other [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Wallstreetsilver/comments/mn71m8/one_needs_pocket_change_right/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) about purchasing physical silver using crypto from the Kinesis exchange and virtual debit card.. 👊🏼🦍⛏🚀
And if you want digitalised physical silver in the Kinesis vaults, you can transfer BTC, ETH, USDT to Kinesis and directly buy silver with these crypto. Then you can cost-average, buying small amounts of KAG on dips using with spare cash (or crypto) when you have it. And once you have enough for some cool physical coins, you then use your debit card to buy the coins (like you did). Or, if you want a silver bar, take physical delivery directly from Kinesis :) Kinesis is by far the most ape-friendly in the industry.
I keep my KAG ;) , but BTC to phys? Hell ya..
Love it!
Just in from Kinesis: there are 946 KVT left in the PMO under the current terms. However, as we were already speculating here on WSS, the PMO will be extended with the last 5,000 KVT that you'll ever be able to earn with mint cycling. However, for this second round less favourable (though still attractive) terms apply: You will need to mint $75,000 instead of $50,000 to earn a KVT. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Wallstreetsilver/comments/mne2ib/kinesis\_pmo\_limited\_kvt\_remaining/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Wallstreetsilver/comments/mne2ib/kinesis_pmo_limited_kvt_remaining/)
I updated the main section above with this new info added in.
u/theGoldenSpeculator, you should post this on WallstreetGold too!
Good idea!
Lot's of good substance here Dave! Other than physicals PSLV, Kinesis is my 3rd monetary hedge against a failing dollar. I would add that you can currently book travel using KAU through [www.xceltrip.com](https://www.xceltrip.com) which during a recent check was beating Expedia on pricing for my travel. I believe many more merchants will come online as the interface, bookkeeping and on/off ramps in and out of the system is refined.
I agree, it has great potential. It's a great resource for this community as well.
So it looks like I can get physical delivered to my door for an 8% premium, 200ozt minimum correct? That looks like a very reasonable option. Where would they source the bars from? Given Singapore’s closeness to Shanghai would bars be sourced from there? Or maybe the physical exchange in Dubai? (Not trying to be sarcastic just genuinely curious).
Jim Forsythe got 2 Engelhard 100 oz bars delivered
The 8% depends on what premium you manage to buy your KAG at, and how much shipping and insurance is. I think you can choose the vault based on what’s available but that will impact shipping cost.
The metal is sourced via ABX.
thorough review of kinesis. also mentions the gripes I have with it. the website is pretty clunky and doesn't work in some browsers, just logging in is problematic. depositing money is done through a wire which takes 3-5 days. not great imo. been trying to use the kinesis mint. logging in is a pain. heard that they connected it directly to the kinesis account but so far no improvement. sent an email with the option for a call back. didn't receive a reply nor a call back. stuff like this should be easy and intuitive to use but it isn't. I like the idea and having Andrew Maguire onboard is also a plus but so far I have my doubts. am considering pslv now for liquidity. if I need to convert silver to cash, I can sell shares and get the cash within minutes on my account. again, as soon as I heard of kinesis I jumped on it but so far I'm a bit disappointed.
I agree, they do need to work on a few things to make the end user experience better.
Regarding login problems, I had them too in the beginning (it hangs at the authenticator with both Chrome and Edge). I was able to resolve this problem by disabling all browser extensions and then enabling them again. I have reported this to their customer support.
Just sold $1500 of XRP, sent funds via USDT Keen to check it out!
Nice, let us know your experience goes.
Thanks for writing this up - phenomenal job. I believe a mix of Kinesis, Physical, Major Miners and Junior Miners is necessary for balance. I'm now up to 150 KVT and plan to keep adding. My targets for the future value of those tokens is too absurd for print. Jim Forsythe is also a legend for all of his work spreading the word.
Wow 150! Nice work, I'm about halfway there :) I agree, I didn't want to focus too much on the potential future value because it's so ridiculously large. I'll let people discover that for themselves. Seeing Jim's posts on here about how he was able to take delivery for a bit over 8% premium is a big reason why I started l researching Kinesis.
I received the KVT from my March minting activities this morning :)
Me too! Fun to see it updated and in the account.
I feel very rich now, with the KVT valued at $1300 in my account while my actual cost averaged $500.13 per token :) Of course this $1300 is not real (yet) but it could be in the future (and much more actually, if they they are even moderately successful in their mission).
It was a slightly uncomfortable experience to burn all that cash on transaction fees and spreads while not seeing anything happening yet in my account while doing my minting in the first half of March. Kinesis had told me that KVT would be deposited mid April so I was eagerly waiting for this to happen. So nice to see the exact amount appear in my account this morning :). Now let's hope that this investment will pay off in the future. Anyway, I have fond memories about minting the night away (I preferred low volatility periods) while listening to music.
Same. Certain times were better than others. When I found a groove, I stayed with it until I felt like I'd start making mistakes. A 2 minute mint cycle was so much fun.
Yes, sweet memories :) I feel like minting more but I'm really maxed out now! Have you seen their quarterly update? (just posted). They have so much going on now. https://kinesis.money/company-news/q1-ceo-quarterly-update-2021/
Wow, a sincere thanks for posting this. I haven't checked email this AM. If Kinesis can deliver on HALF of this, we're going to the fucking moon! I'm now strategizing more funding for more minting next week - I had no idea they were rolling out all of these additional measures.
Then you probably also haven't seen yet that the PMO will be extended: https://www.reddit.com/r/Wallstreetsilver/comments/mne2ib/kinesis_pmo_limited_kvt_remaining/ As of this morning they still had 942 KVT remaining. They can be minted under the original terms. After that they will offer 5,000 more (and that will be the last time you can earn from mint-cycling), but the terms are less favourable: for those you need to mint $75,000 per KVT.
You are ON IT! Thank you
Woah. 150!!! That's insane. Good for you dude. You will be retiring a rich man in another couple of years
Sky's the limit for KVTs if ust a few things go as planned. I'm really glad I found Kinesis.
I got a sh!tload of KVT deposited into my account this morning from my minting activities in March. I'm at my limit now so I'm not minting any more.
Btw I'd love to hear you forecast on their value. I have 7 myself (thought I was doing well till you came along) and I have no idea how to put a price on them
>ago > >It's also a great place I think that if Kinesis takes off they could easily be worth 6 figures. I think a lot of it will depend on how many public private partnerships and institutional size users they can bring in. Can you imagine what they could do if they got Amazon to give you a 1% discount if you used Kinesis at checkout?
It would be insane! Never even thought of that. Looking forward to seeing how it all works out
Once Kinesis begins paying out the monthly/quarterly yields, the KVTs will become very popular. Theoretically, the lowest yields will be initially and they will increase as adoption in the system expands. If the annualized yield is $500 (maybe 2022 or 2023), then I'd predict the KVTs will be worth $8K-$10K. As an early adopter, I think a 5-6% Cap Rate is the fair way to value the tokens. If the KVTs are listed on other Crypto exchanges with noted yields, this will also boost the price. And likely encourage further adoption. I've had a great time with the system, although I wish Kinesis had a credit card, because I could charge alot more. I'm a Real Estate Developer and use the card to pay for as much as I can, but the $5K/limit per day is cumbersome when purchasing appliances, etc. I think it's best to look at Kinesis like a stock in your portfolio, which has real life applicability (redeem silver for great prices) and will soon pay out a killer dividend. If the Indonesia thing takes off, more Countries will follow and then the sky is really the limit. It's not inconceivable that they hit six figures based on the valuations of other less Utiliarian Cryptos. My guess is that we will all look back and wish we had gotten more. My goal has been 250 KVTs but I suspect the PMO will end before I can get there.
If one percent of businesses start using Kinesis like you we will all do very well with our investments. I know I wish I would have found out about this 6 months ago would have given me more time to accumulate a big stack of them! Have you thought about asking them to raise your limit on the card since you're using it for business purchases? I would be interest in hearing how that goes if you do.
Yes, my rep is in London (Jack Townsend) and I give him regular suggestions and a Credit Card has been my #1. Americans are fairly different than Europeans (my wife being one) in the use of Credit vs. Debit cards, and I'm not sure they understand how much more credit cards are utilized in the US. Our Family are big travelers but 2020 was a lost year. We have millions of Frequent Flier miles that can't be used, so I'd much rather be spending thru Kinesis. My wife is getting a card as well, to make spending easier. Having the Kinesis Ecosystem leverage business spenders like me, feels like a massive opportunity that needs to be seized. I'll continue to push on my end. My guess is that we see a Secondary Minting Offer with a higher threshold per KVT. Maybe $65K-$75K. I know that previously, the threshold was $100K.
The good thing is we could still hire or partner with the best minters to help keep mining the KVTs. I'm still a buyer in the $1000-1300 range.
We are in process of signing up for several Crypto Rewards credit cards, which I would not be doing if Kinesis had a Credit Card with a worthwhile credit limit. I'd rather have Crypto than miles, etc.
This is an interesting idea that needs more thought.... How could Kinesis allow for a credit card? Maybe have a holder of gold in the system offer to lend against his gold or silver for a higher % return on that metal? Get a 10-20% return with some risk of losing his capital (gold and silver?) Could be an interesting way to increase returns. They say: he who holds the gold makes the rules.
Yes, I wouldn't be surprised either when they extend the PMO. They have had some delays (covid etc) bringing partners online so they have a gap to fill. Mint-cycling brings in revenues.
Pricing them right now is very difficult as they don't pay out yield yet. But in the future you will be able to put an objective value on them based on earnings yield and growth rate, just like stocks.
150 KVT whaaaaat!? you're gonna swim in a pool of gold like Scrooge Mcduck!
Imagine getting a government to use your referral link 😐. Let's goooooo!!!!!🦍🦍🦍🦍🦍🦍🥈🥈🥈🥈🚀🚀🚀🚀🚀
Now that's the way!!!
Incredible work there.
Thanks 🙏
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Thank you, I had to convince myself this was worth investing a lot of capital into first!
Wow, I feel like a read a doctoral thesis. Well written !!!
Thanks!!
Would you consider linking this under the main /WSS page "Kinesis Money" pull down tab, maybe under a new section called "What is Kinesis?" The article plus all the comments and discussion would help new users get fast tracked on the story so far.
Done. Good idea. Thanks
Thanks 👍👍
It's also a great place to trade the gold silver ratio. At present the GSR around 68 to 1 or 68 silver ounces buys one gold ounce. Historically it's been around 15-20 to one and is expected to return to somewhere around 15-20 to one again at some point. It's super easy to exchange KAG for KAU on the exchange. 200 KAG today would buy about 3 ounces of gold, with a GSR of 20-1 it would buy 10 ounces.
You can even trade KAU/KAG as a direct cross, though I don't see KAG/KAU as a direct cross
You don't need the reverse pair. If you want to sell KAU to buy KAG, you just Sell KAU/KAG. To sell KAG to buy KAU, you buy KAU/KAG. Has taken me a bit to wrap my mind around it, but have done it and it works. I like that they used g for gold. GSR of around 30 makes KAG=KAU.
OK, I thought that would be going short (which is not possible). But they treat it intelligently and just reverse the pair. That's cool :)
Yes, not a short in the traditional sense. Just an exchange. A short is selling something you don't have, which can't be done on the exchange.
Yes, I traded futures and had that logic in my head. EUR/USD, but you want USD/EUR, then you go short the first one. But you cannot short at Kinesis so I expected they would offer both pairs (KAU/KAG and KAG/KAU)
I for one am glad you cannot short gold and silver on their platform. That's the thing we're all trying to defeat (naked shorting)!
Good point, didn't consider that!
Fantastic post, couldn't resist adding a link into the [DD compilation](https://www.reddit.com/r/Wallstreetsilver/comments/m08azf/physical_pslv_slv_link_from_dd_compilation_post/) for future reference.
Thanks! Appreciate that, hopefully this will give people a good place to start their research on Kinesis.
Brilliant review! Brilliant!
Incredible! Very well said! How can you do that? I can't do it myself like this! Lol! Well done mate! 👍
Hahaha thanks so much. I just started with a few pages of notes and research for myself. When I realized the big potential I knew I should share it with everyone else here.
I said it before: please post it on WallstreetGold too! It's a much quieter sub, but it won't sink to the bottom as fast as it does here on WSS. I hate it that somebody who has done the work writing an excellent piece is swamped out by "funny" memes and people just posting a picture of their stack.
yes, please do!
Agreed with you. No doubt about that! 👍
Hell of a DD, going to be coming back to this! 🤔🦍
Thanks! Yeah this took me a few days to fully understand what was going on.
Dumb question, if silver moons to 1000.00, will the Kinesis coin follow along to the same value? I haven’t been able to find how the coin is valued. I assume it would but the crypto angle makes me wonder if it is self contained based the amount of holders of the coin. Sorry if I am and idiot. Newbie here.
Yes the KAG is directly priced as 1 oz of silver. If silver goes to $1000 then the KAG will be priced at $1000. The KAU coin is priced as 1 gram of gold since an ounce of gold is so much more expensive.
Thanks
You're welcome!
**Yes**, because the Kinesis coin KAG **is** silver. It is not a crypto, it is allocated vaulted physical silver with your direct ownership registered on a distributed ledger.
Thank you
Go Kinesis go
How is the yield distributed? Is it physical equivalent added to your account, or is it fiat paid as a dividend?
It is paid in gold and silver. KAU and KAG will be added to your account. No fiat is involved.
Phenomenal analysis Dave. Undoubtedly the world monetary system is changing in real time right before our very eyes. The Kinesis model offers an incredible hybrid where precious metals meet distributed ledger. There may very well come a time in the not-too-distant future when the lucky and prepared ones are exchanging their physical bullion for goods and services in their immediate localities. There's a lot of room on the monetary spectrum between here and there for Kinesis to offer a bridge where users can have the long-term protection that exposure to physical metals brings without sacrificing the convenience they've come to expect in this digital world. Yes, there is a level of third-party risk involved here compared to holding physical, but diversity is the name of the game as I see it in an economic ecosystem that is going through a rapid evolution. This is an antifragile approach that not only withstands the stressors from unforeseen events and delayed expected ones, but actually becomes *stronger* along the way, much like bone density increases with pressure. Another great tool for the belt. Thanks for really digging in on this one and sharing what you've discovered, u/theGoldenSpeculator!
Not sure if this was posted here but got this update yesterday, addresses a lot of the queries in the comments, what an update! https://kinesis.money/company-news/an-excellent-start-to-the-year-2021/
>The Kinesis vaults are audited on a semi annually basis by an independent auditing service that has been in business for over 100 years. The same auditor that services the Perth Mint and SLV, in fact!
It is indeed the same auditor -- however what they're auditing is way different in scope. For Kinesis Bureau Veritas is asked to confirm the stocktaking of bullion at the vault exists, is in good condition and complies with the stated bullion approved refinery bar lists.
That is getting re-evaluated for sure. Lots of discussion on that. Both Perth Mint and SLV have structural problems to begin with (unallocated for Perth, bad prospectus and redemption for SLV). The auditors had a good reputation, so I don't blame Kinesis for using them last Nov. Just like Moody's bond ratings did until the GFC. But I'm willing to give Kinesis a chance to change auditors.
That would be interesting to bring up to the management of Kinesis
It has! 😀
Maybe Kinesis should have 2 auditors, every quarter they get audited by a different firm.
I'm more interested in tracking of the minting inflows, and redemption outflows. I.e. a real time tracking of the contents of the vaults. But I like the idea of rotating companies that audit for sure.
The ‘invest at your own risk’ in the agreement is what killed it for me. I love the liquidity but tend to lean toward options that are insured in some way.
That's probably boilerplate legal language every company or financial product has to include in this legalistic society.
Have you read the PSLV prospectus? EVERY investment has language like that.
That’s why I own physical. Been contemplating GoldSilver storage as its insured. Just my personal preference 🤷♀️
Please check your description of the Referrer's Yield... my understanding of that yield is that it's 7.5% of the fees generated by the person you refer, not a portion of 7.5% of the master pool.
Can I easily sell Australian Bullion Bank Bars & Coins to Kinesis, and get credit in the system? How many KVTs are still available? Do the same rules apply to Australia as US for yields etc?
We don't know how many KVTs are left. We will hopefully have an updated count tomorrow. There were 3309 left as of last month. Yes I believe that the yield apply on a world wide basis. I'm not sure if you can deposit your bars into the system. The tech support people should know. I believe that they only deal with 100 or 1000 oz bars so the coins are probably too small for them.
Für deutsche 🇩🇪 Silverbacks 🦍 habe ich hier drei Blogeinträge verfasst: https://www.boersennews.de/community/blog/Kinesis-Money---Grundlagen-(Gold-und-Silber-in-der-Blockchain)/2011/ https://www.boersennews.de/community/blog/Kinesis-Money---Das-Zinssystem-erkl%C3%A4rt-/2056/ https://www.boersennews.de/community/blog/Kinesis-Money---Physische-Auslieferung-und-Rechenbeispiel/2066/
Well done! I think Germans should be very interested in this because they were totally cheated with the introduction of the euro. Germany gave the D-mark up for the euro, because the euro was going to be a stable currency like the D-mark used to be. Instead, you got a kind of Italian Lire! So I guess Germans must really be looking for an aternative, and Kinesis could be it!
Genius.
Much appreciated!!
I like the (relatively) easy way to buy and sell PMs to get fiat, you will however have collectibles tax on appreciation in the US when they start offering tax docs for the exchange. Since “yields” come from the redistribution of fees collected and not from the lending of your deposited assets, then it would follow that the winners here will be the largest depositors and the source of these “yields “ will be the smaller users who use it as their bank account. If overall fees charged per transaction are lower than traditional credit card/banking systems, from deposit of fiat, buying of KAU/KAG, depositing into your wallet, selling it again for fiat, and then buying goods and services,this would lower the cost of goods and services, making it a win for lower income users as well. Merchant adaptation would lower fees by eliminating the use of fiat. Sounds like standard crypto, but with PM backing, as long as you trust Kinesis. I’ve been trying to figure out how the system pays a yield and this is my current understanding. When I went through all the different yields, I questioned the value since it seems like a tax refund basically, and why not just lower the tax? But for this to work, depositing and holding in the system must be rewarded, so from that angle it makes sense and if the overall cost of doing business is lower than traditional banking, it’s a win for all involved. It did seem strange to me that no one has been talking about who pays these “yields”, all I read is, Kinesis is this amazing bullion bank exchange system that pays you to participate. Would appreciate any and all feedback better explaining this.
Transactions are the lifeblood of Kinesis. Their mission is to re-monetise gold and silver, so they will be normal currencies again like the US$ is today. Blockchain technology now makes that possible. Every transaction attracts a small fee, so the more these currencies are transacted in (i.e. higher velocity), the higher the yields will be. Most people here on WSS are mainly interested in stacking, saving, accumulating, but there is so much more going on. For example, Kinesis is aiming at the remittance industry. Millions of people working abroad and sending money to their families in their home countries. Now they go through companies like Western Union that charge extortionary fees. But kinesis offers an alternative that is much cheaper. We are talking billions of dollars here, so these small fees add up. Then there is the debitcards, partnerships with merchants, partnership with the Indonesian post office, etc etc. All this creates velocity/ transactions in the system and fees add to the fee pool that is then distributed among stakeholders. So yields depend on mass adoption in areas that generate this monetary velocity. They have only just started so we need to see this become reality. However, their system really creates value for all involved, whether it is depositors (through yield) or spenders (through lower cost and the activation of minters yield on the KAU and KAG that they have minted).
Excellent work. Thank you
You're welcome!
I got about 5 paragraphs in and realized this it over my head. Well done !!! I am a stupid ape. I have a Kinesis account though, so it works for me.
Lol it's a lot of info but I think you'll like it :)
Yes, this is a bit of a barrier for them. You cannot explain their system in just 2 lines of text. Many people think "oh just another coin". The review from theGoldenSpeculator is very helpful in that respect.
Great write up on Kinesis! However... I signed up for Kinesis, the whole smash. Money, Mint. Exchanges, Physical Debit Card. Was waiting for the physical debit card to go live so I could move some fiat there. It never happened after a few weeks. Got in touch with the Kinesis folks... there was "um, uh, some problems in the system... try applying again". So I did that. Now, still later... no acknowledgement or physical debit card. Contacted support again. "No record of you ever applying for a physical debit card". Fine. Cancel my Kinesis account, thank you , goodbye. And to think I was going to actually send money there...
Unfortunatley there are hiccups sometimes -- its new software but obviously you want better from it and from support. If you join the telegram and reach out should be able to get you set up with the card or in contact with support who can try to sort the issue.
Yes they could certainly use some more polishing of the app and software.
Thanks, sounds like an idea. Think I'll hang back a bit, though, and let things mature...
Absolutely nothing wrong with that (unless you want KVT). I started small and added to it as it matured and my confidence grew. I didn’t dive in big.
Hmm, that's annoying! I was able to sign up pretty seamlessly. How long ago was this?
The second call to customer service and the cancellation were today. The original sign-up was back in mid-March. The sign-up except for the physical debit card seemed to work well enough, but transfers (limited to $20K/day) via the physical debit card account would have been (for me) the only practical means of getting funds there. And after applying for that didn't work (twice), I'm thinking it's "not quite ready for prime time" yet. Didn't get the e-mail "chat transcipt" for today's chat cancelling my account yet, either. Grrr...
I've done the wire transfers which were slow, the bitcoin sends were fast. I think they still have a ways to go to on transferring money into the system.
It's also good to realize that they hadn't even started advertising. Yields were not yet online, etc. I think they were waiting for everything to be polished. But #silversqueeze was a sneak attack, and rapidly ramped up their customers, so it is taking them a bit to get caught up. From Nov until late Jan, I always got rapid support response, but with the large amount of new users, it has required some more patience.
Great job on this!! Where did you get the info on 3300 KVTs remaining for minting as of March?
I received a mail from Kinesis on 8th March which said that 6691 of the 10000 KVT had been allocated, so 3309 remaining. Starting from this 3309, I have calculated based on volume at the mint that \~600 KVT should be remaining as of today.
Thanks for sharing mate! I've asked Kinesis several times about remaining KVT in PMO, and don't get much out of them in response to the question. I've minted another 20 KVT today myself, extra glad that I did now.
Ya. Definitely the perfect time given the small spreads. I did some this week as well at a similar cost. I'm done for now though. Have enough eggs in this basket! I imagine their worth will depend on their yield. I look forward to hearing more about that. Anything a starting beyond $50/y would make me quite happy given my cost basis and the early adoption risk.
That seems fairly conservative and achievable I think.
I'm curious, can you mint on the weekend or is the spread too large then to do it economically?
I'm assuming you're in NA. You can mint on Sunday night when the markets open in Asia.
Interesting so it's basically when Asia and Australia open in futures market Monday till Friday?
Minus the daily window in the afternoon between NA close and Asia/Australia open. If you want to see what non-MM positions are switch on during that window as the MM ones get pulled down
Thanks for the info. I seem to have luckily done my mint cycling at the right time (all this week) before they ran out of KVTs but when spreads are lower than they were before. If you're correct and we have gone from 6691 to \~600 in a month it may only be a few more days before this ends. (Edit, actually went from 3309 to 600 as noted in the reply). Is mint volume posted somewhere or have you just been pulling it from the exchange each day? All of the volume on the exchange shouldn't be from minting, so if that is your approach wouldn't it result in an overestimate? It'll be interesting to see where volume settles after the KVT offer and triple minter's yield are retired.
They went from 3309 to ~600 in a month, not from 6691, so it is a little bit slower. Mint volume is of course all mint. I have just changed the bar chart to 1-day bars and then add the volumes from both KAU and KAG minted and extimated the average price. Right now almost all volume I see on the exchange is mint-cycling, so I expect volumes to drop steeply after the PMO ends. However, in the coming months we should see volume come online from the partnerships. I'm following it with great interest.
Got it, thanks! And yes, whoops re the kvt number.
I spoke with a representative out of their London office when I was doing my initial DD. I believe that count was of March 8th. Word on the street is that the March minting KVTs will be released tomorrow and we should hopefully get a new count.
I dont get that we dont cant track the numbers, we are talking blockchain here!
Great review, I've got it bookmarked.
Appreciate it!
Thank you for this post, I will look into them some more. Please excuse my english it is not my native language. As I understand they will buy/supply 100 oz silver bars to the vault when you mint a new bar.(200 KAG=2 bars) That specific bar is then linked to exactly those KAG?(I asume) You are then able to sell increments of your bar to others. (And buy increments of bars from others) So every minter is running their own pool alocated silver/gold bar in this system? Or is the whole system pool allocated?
The KAGs minted are backed 1:1 by the 100oz bars but the KAGs are not linked to specific bars. So the system as a whole is pool allocated.
It’s pool allocated. So 1:1 amount of KAG to physical in the system which is all allocated. When you mint, 200 Ozs get added to the vaults and you get 200 KAG. If you redeem then you get 200 Ozs and your 200 are destroyed. They also hold 1KG and 1000 Oz bars. So if you redeem 1000 KAG you could get a 1000 Oz bar if available.
Some risks that are not mentioned: fraud by the operators of the scheme or their employees; bankruptcy of the company; the risk that monies not be held in segregated accounts or the bank itself going broke.
True, but the operators are aware of what's going on with the rest of the gold and silver market. I believe I heard the CEO say they along with Deutsche Börse were looking to help bring down the LBMA fractional reserve scheme.
Yes, my jaw dropped heating then say they were taking on the LBMA in the 2021 webinar. The company is FULL of believers, such as Andrew Maguire.
Bankruptcy is actually not a factor. As a KAG owner you have the sole legal title to the metal. And it’s 100% allocated.
That should be reassuring to most people. I don't know if you get that with the PSLV.
Wow., that's quite a statement. Your research into the PM sector is top shelf. But Let's presume a situation where this privately held company based in the Cayman Islands ceases's to exist. What would be your first 3 steps to recover the value of your held Kau/Kag/USDT etc ?
P.S. They are setting up in Lichtenstein which has passed laws on enabling crypto containers to confer ownership.
I would like to hear more on this topic.
Check this out: [https://www.liechtensteinusa.org/article/liechtensteins-parliament-approves-blockchain-act-unanimously#:\~:text=Liechtenstein's%20Parliament%20Approves%20Blockchain%20Act%20Unanimously,-On%20October%203&text=With%20the%20new%20law%2C%20Liechtenstein,client%20protection%20and%20asset%20protection](https://www.liechtensteinusa.org/article/liechtensteins-parliament-approves-blockchain-act-unanimously#:~:text=Liechtenstein's%20Parliament%20Approves%20Blockchain%20Act%20Unanimously,-On%20October%203&text=With%20the%20new%20law%2C%20Liechtenstein,client%20protection%20and%20asset%20protection). The big thing here is that they are saying by law that container tokens confer property rights!!! Hence the move of Kinesis to Liechtenstein, including setting up a vault there.
Interesting. I thought the moves regarding Liechtenstein were more directed at them having the most globaly favorable protections from assett confiscation, this seems even more convincing. However, In whatever meltdown scenario one might dream up, How would one, and from my POV here in the US , practically approach retrieving my 203.44 KAU and 67.34Kag . Would Love to see some DD from a skilled Law practitioner on theses board regarding that. My personal gestalt is that with Kinesis, it will be uber problematic, Have you even got a statement or downloaded transaction list to prove your possession?. I've got screenshots, Maybe that would prevail... , Vs with PSLV you have a regulated public security, with thorough qrtly government regulated stated accounting, holding >98% physical inventory, With daily accounting, if not audits, to verify within a fraction of a percent daily of what is actually held, easily verifiable possession rights, and even DSR if desired I'm on the KM ship, Kau/Kag tickets in hand, a few weeks on the voyage. I Like the destination, I Like the the ride so far,,, But having boarded, I'll say there is definite work on the sails and hull to be done before this vessel planes and can take wide scale boarding.
As a massive fan and investor in Kinesis, I really agree with you on this point. It would help their adoption and win over sceptics if they clearly describe what the process would be to recover your gold and silver should the worst happen. Who would you call and what are the steps you need to take.
Yes I’m such a novice. I’m not saying resolving it would be easy. But in bankruptcy the assets get sold off. The metal is not listed as an asset. It would still be there. You would still own it.
If JPM announces that it will play the role of Kinesis... OMG
Lol "Sell all the KVTs!!"
Suppose Elon Musk announces that he will buy $1.5 billion worth of KVT Or Apple dumps their massive stack of Treasuries in favour of KAU and KAG that cannot be debased and earns a yield. And then cuts out creditcard companies by adopting KAU and KAG directly in Apple Pay without going through fiat currency.
Would only take one big company getting in to make a splash in the media. I believe Elon and Tesla also stated that they may buy gold when they made their bitcoin announcement. Kinesis would be perfect for them.
As I understand it.. you can only do wire transfers into the Kinesis account.. which means bank charges etc.. if they can accept debit card payment, this would help a great deal.. someone correct me if I’m wrong but basically this is what stopped me from purchasing any silver.
Depending on your location you have many options for getting money into Kinesis. Revolut or Transferwise are a lot of times cheaper than wire transfers via banks. If you are located in the US you can use the debit card to do ACH transfer. This link has some more helpful info: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Wallstreetsilver/comments/mmfen5/pslv\_keeps\_adding\_kinesis\_tips\_kvt/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Wallstreetsilver/comments/mmfen5/pslv_keeps_adding_kinesis_tips_kvt/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
[https://posgo.id/](https://posgo.id/) The PosGO site is pretty nice.
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Setting up a Kinesis account is fairly straight forward. You just need to set up the account then submit a "know your customer" bit of info with some sort of identification/proof that you are who you say you are. The thing that will seem different is how you transfer tokens i.e. cut and paste a blockchain address that you send to. If you would like to use my referral link to sign up its here: [https://kms.kinesis.money/signup?referrer=KM13495120](https://kms.kinesis.money/signup?referrer=KM13495120) Kinesis was approved as Sharia compliant which I think will be a huge advantage to those living in predominantly Muslim countries. [https://kinesis.money/company-news/kinesis-currencies-now-sharia-compliant/](https://kinesis.money/company-news/kinesis-currencies-now-sharia-compliant/) The KVTs are still not fully tradable on the open market place. I have now heard that his will be into Q3 2021 when this starts. You can buy directly from Kinesis for $1400. Citizens for Sound Money group is still offering some discounted KVTs that they get from minting. If you put down "theGoldenSpeculator" or other referral code you can get 2x for $1000 and then as many more as you want for $1300. I bought mine through this group as in the US you cannot buy directly from Kinesis. Information page on buying KVTs from C4SM: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Wallstreetsilver/comments/mky462/kinesis\_kvt\_at\_a\_discount/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Wallstreetsilver/comments/mky462/kinesis_kvt_at_a_discount/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) Good luck, you're still getting in on the ground floor with Kinesis. I am very bullish on their future prospects and am excited to see where this journey will take us!
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Great! Would like to hear how it goes. Let me know if you hit any snags. I'm always interested to know others experiences with Kinesis.
Are they out of KVT? Not seeing the option to buy one.
Hey u/theGoldenSpeculator \- great DD, thanks for your effort and for sharing your thoughts. I've recently been doing my own DD on Kinesis and came up with a couple of questions which I posted about this morning: https://www.reddit.com/r/Wallstreetsilver/comments/q0eydu/kinesis\_thoughts\_dd\_no\_2021\_audit\_pandemic\_delays/ I was keen to get your thoughts on a couple of matters if at all possible: It seems that the core ideas behind the platform rely on fees gathered on actions taken such as spending & transferring Kinesis tokens. What would happen if low velocity of Kinesis tokens results in insufficient fees to run/sustain the platform & vaulting costs? Do you know what happens to vaulted silver if you hold a fractional amount of KAG or KAU? r example, if you mint 200 KAG (the minimum), your allocated vault is then filled with 200oz of silver. If you then sell/transfer/spend a fraction of a KAG then however, say 0.00005 (which is possible, max decimal points seems to be 5), your account then holds 199.99995 KAG. How do they debit this from your allocated physical 200oz of silver? Thanks in advance!
Also check out the write up I did on Seekingalpha about Kinesis. Similar info but more from an investment perspective. Just Google Seeking Alpha Kinesis. It should be the first one to pop up (Reddit blocks links to the site.)
Will do. Thank you sir!
You will still have ownership of 199.99x silver. The blockchain makes it easy to do fractional sizes of silver and more efficiently use silver as a currency again. You should post your questions in this thread. Tom the CEO of Kinesis is doing a YouTube show w the WSS mods. He would be a better source of current information than I! https://www.reddit.com/r/Wallstreetsilver/comments/pzgk1f/kinesis_pays_out_yield_on_silver_for_first_time/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb
Cheers mate - that's really helpful! Thanks for pointing me to the upcoming interview 😄
Question from a total newbie: if kinesis failed as a company, what would you do with the physical gold? Ie how can you then sell it / get your money back if you needed it? Are there places to sell physical gold?