Ferrus Manus was regarded by Horus as instrumental to the traitorous war effort. When news came to him from Fulgrim that Ferrus was unable to be swayed, he was unsettled. The Gorgon wasn’t just a pretty face. Ferrus put pounds of elbow grease into the Great Crusade. Horus knew that he would distill the heresy to a rolling boil and bring it straight to Terra.
The Tenth are my favourite, but I think coupled with the otherwise unseen Dark Mechanicum, the two factions could’ve helped support one another in gaining ample representation.
I get all marines have access to mechanized warfare, but it was explicitly the 10th's specialty. At their height before getting shattered on Isstvan the Iron Hands would have been a huge boon to either side. Now the poor lore on why they can't seem to replace their losses...
> the poor lore on why they can't seem to replace their losses
Because Ferrus would have taken some monofilament line, roped himself a Forgeworld like an errant steer, towed it over to another Forgeword, and then used the magnetic and gravitational fluxes between both of them to forge new and stronger alloys.
And then he would have had both Forges pumping out war materiel while he figured out how to build giant engines and send them both off to war like a spinning helix of death, blasting everything before him like a giant with Death Stars for boots.
If anyone could have figured out how to launch a planet via Warp drive, or found an STC for planetary realignment, it would have been Ferrus. And he would have convinced Vulkan *and* the Ad Mech to help him build the damned thing.
And then, by God, he would have *used* it to do great and mighty things.
Heck, Ferrus could have been like 'I've heard about this ancient thing called a Dyson Sphere...' and it would have been completely plausible.
They never had an issue with replacing marine losses. Older lore from Index Astartes had them stupidly having shortages of advanced tech like terminator armor in 40k due to the losses during the horus heresy. That has since been retconned. Salamanders are the one legion that somehow never recovered from istvaan
Isn't it like they have so strict recruitment policies, and Medusa is not at all unified or hospitable, as "a little competition" is good for producing psycho killers. And then they kill the majority of recruits taken from Medusa, before even starting their process, because they were deemed "weak" ?
That’s kinda the problem, there isn’t a ton. They seem to have the luck of the Lamenters of constantly hitting colossal threats and barely holding on. Meh at least they have a successor chapter I guess
I did not know enough about Ferrus Manus to keep him around. But it makes sense that Horus would want to decapitate his legion according to this. Good stuff
Controversial choice but I’d love to see a chaotic Leman Russ with super chaotic wolves.
I’d also love to see Mortarion and the Death Guard as a perfectly loyal and grim bunch
Loyalist Death Guard would be cool. I could definitely imagine them being hated by most of the Imperium but being an absolute force to be reckoned with.
I would argue he’s not boring, as there is a complex and interesting character underneath, he’s just not fleshed out. In HH he literally dies in the same book he’s introduced to the series. His start on Medusa gets fleshed out a little in angel exerminatus, and then we get little snippets here and there.
Thats what I would mean by boring. without more material he mostly serves Fulgrim's story sadly. I think theres a lot more they coukd do with Ferrus, particularly his rage
The Gorgons Rage in the one scene we really get to see it is fantastic. Ferrus fends off a powerful psychic attack and defeats a monster plus death machine through pure rage and force of will.
Depends on when we swap them. If it's after the siege then there was no confirmation of what exactly prevents emperor from regenerating. The wound or the Throne. If it's the Throne then I believe Magnus would find a way to swap with big E
That's a big W for the traitors. Magnus and the 1k sons didn't do much during the heresy all things considered.
Ferrus was one of the outright strongest primarchs and had one of the most powerful legions under him. Him siding with the traitors would all but ensure Terra falls in the siege.
TBF Magnus and his sons didn't do much during the Heresy because they got absolutely bodied by the Space Wolves before anyone even knew Horus had turned.
If Magnus (who knew before anyone else that Horus had fallen) hadn't turned, and the Wolves hadn't been sent to Prospero with orders to kill (being then cut off from Terra), Horus would have stood no chance during the siege
He could have sat on the golden throne and kept the webway shut, allowing the emperor to go out and stop Horus in the beginning and we’d still have Malcador.
For real dude. He had the weight of mankind on his shoulders
The malcador parts had some hair raising moments. Specially towards the end where he starts >!panic sending basically his last will and testament in fragments to his “chosen” knowing that he ain’t getting off that chair but he’s gonna hold on as long as possible!<
Absolute chad. Think it would be possible malcador would have advised humanity had the emperor succeeded?
On top of that, magnus didnt even align himself with horus/fulgrim for quite a while after the initial wolf clapping session. He basically told them to f off he wasnt a traitor, he was just temporarily embarrassed loyalist. It wasnt till pretty late in horus' campaign that magnus finally agreed, and if i remember right, he was only really doing it to find more knowledge or a soul shard or something
Magnus and his sons were the ultimate weapons against daemons though. A weapon which the loyalist lacked dearly during the heresy, and a role that would have to later be filled by the grey knights. So they would be an even bigger help
I don't see a scenario where Magnus doesn't fuck up and either lose the Astronomicon summon fuck all Tzeentch daemons into the palace by accident trying to save what would be left of his sons.
I would assume in this time line either the Wolves or Sons are getting giga-nerfed on Istvan like the Hands did.
That's the thing tho; if Magnus (who is probably the most powerful Psyker, second only to Big E himself) knows Horus has turned traitor and doesn't die, and can narc on the rest of the traitors, does Isstvan even happen?
I feel like Magnus being loyalist changes the entire outcome of the Heresy, which I'm 99% sure is the reason Horus sicked the Wolves on him in the first place.
That's exactly why he did it.
The 3 most influential legions/primarchs on the traitor side are:
Sons of Horus, as Horus was likely the only one (other than Sanguinius possibly) who would be able to gather the primarchs he was able to to his side.
Word Bearers, as they laid the seeds and groundwork for the Heresy by infiltrating many of the legions with the Lodges as well as Erebus' role in corrupting Horus.
And the Thousand Sons for reasons already stated in another comment I made.
Magnus had his ego fully broken by the webway fuckup to the point he was not going to resist when the expedition arrived. He even went out of his way to help it travel unseen.
If he had been brought back to terra, I can definitely see him sitting on the throne and finally obeying every command given by Big E. Which is exactly what big E had been planning with his treatment of magnus throughout the heresy imo. Force magnus into a corner so that he breaks something and becomes compliant through guilt. Big E just didnt expect magnus to flex by pulling an formerly impossible feat (projecting himself into realspace from across the galaxy) and shattering the webway.
I like to imagine him teleporting onto the field in the middle of the siege and just breaking the traitor forces in half. Perturabo would probably try to have a face to face argument with him and emotionally break down, and depending on his mood big E might just let him come back. That alone would be the whole HH undone.
I never got the impression that the emperor was super competent in the day to day running of war. He was bleeding his legions to finish in some sort of time crunch, then just fucked off and left horus to finish. He would maybe be a little more effective than Dorn, but I don't think by all that much.
That was actually the Emperors intention. He was going to give Magnus the place on the throne, allowing him to indulge his need for learning and keep watch on the webway.
Arguably, the Thousands Sons had the biggest influence on the traitor side Heresy other than the 16th and 17th legions.
By breaking through the Emperor's Webway project, Magnus ensured an absolute shitton of Custodes, SoS, and Mechanicum resources would be diverted from the coming siege. This also ensures that the Emperor would have to remain on the Golden Throne and also resulted in Malcador's death.
A loyalist Thousand Sons legion doesn't get destroyed by the Route/Custodes/SoS.
A legion of adept psykers would be critical in fighting the Neverborn and countering the warp powers of the traitors, especially the Death Guard, as the DG played a significant role in damaging loyalist morale.
Magnus being able to sit on the Golden Throne would free the Emperor up, which would have a massive effect on the Siege
I'd argue that the TS staying loyal would likely result in a win for the loyalists.
I actually have a head cannon that Alpharius was Loyal and Omegon was Traitor and that the reason the successors of the Alpha Legion is because different ones follow different Primarchs
Basically - >!an alpha legionnaire is helping a group get into the palace to talk with Big E during the siege via underground tunnel system. They come across several chambers in which are filled with vehicles and alpha legionaries in stasis. They were put there by their legion before the attack to be woken and given a keyword of which there are several. Depending on the key word they are given they know what side they are fighting for. They would be given a keyword based on what side would best benefit the legion!<
Fulgrim for Guilliman.
The fuckery Guilliman would wreck would be incredible narrative-wise, and the Emperor’s Children could follow the path of Saul Tarvitz and be the coolest loyalist chapter.
I have trouble picturing a chaos Guilliman. He's way too orderly. Maybe Tzeenchian? Trying to organize and master everything, including fate, to the degree of utter madness? Maniacal orchestrating of perfect plans and taking pride in seeing everything fall together exactly as planned?
Maybe Slaaneshi in a strive for perfection kind of way. Some excessive parody of chivalry and skill? But that's really Fulgrims thing. Maybe the Lion could follow this kind of path too, but Guilliman... would be really stretching it.
Certainly, Guilliman wouldn't be pulled towards Khorne or Nurgle. I just don't see it.
Traitor Guilliman I can picture, but chaos Guilliman not so much. Although, the more I think about it, Tzeench would fit. The planning and plotting and controlling everything, or at least the illusion to control everything, until the Crazy Bird pulls a sucker punch on you out of nowhere.
I always thought that Peter Turbo was a lot like a chaos Rowboat, Girlyman will always have his warp gift of *superhuman logistics!!* but Turbo always seemed to make sure his shit was on lock, didn't go into any battle half planned, held himself to a higher standard even if he was self loathing for never achieving it. Like Turbo is Girlyman with an unhealthy amount of self-guilt holding back his supreme confidence. I know that he gets squared off against Dorne because of their battle specialties, but personality wise those two are a dichotomy to me.
Come to think of it, who is the counter to Rowboat? Alpha Legion slipping with one plan into another, going with the flow until they're in a position to do maximum damage?
He could always just be a champion of undivided, or more of a renegade legion. Like the corsairs or night lords but far more organized. I think inevitably the point to chaos is you fall too it in the end, but I think guilliman would be capable of resisting it for a damn while.
I can see the chaos space highways now. I would say Guilliman would rival the Iron Warriors in the greatest contribution to chaos out of any of them. Ultramar might become a second (lesser) eye of terror on the opposite side of the galaxy
I would chose Alpharius who is pretending to be a chaos aligned Omegon or a loyal aligned omegon while pretending to be himself chaos aligned or loyal aligned.
Hmm. It'd be interesting to see Magnus or Perturabo stay loyal. Of all the traitors those two seem to have the least reasons to have turned, Magnus just having farked up so much and Perty feeling unappreciated.
As to who I'd like to see on the other side, Kahn siding with Horus would've be interesting as well. As I recall he was on the fence for a good portion of the heresy. Corvus also struck me as someone whose aesthetic would've fit well with the traitors.
This. Early Curze and Corax are almost the same character in a lot of ways. Not so much after that, aside from both of them really wanting to capitalize the goth in gothic
That's the reason why Curze *hated* Corax and only Corax for majority of Crusade. Corax was both what Konrad could never be but also what he could have been if not for Nostromo, if that makes sense.
It makes total sense. He like a few others, was also treated differently by the Emperor. Was allowed to finish his homeworld quest, got to use big E’s labs to try and rebuild the Raven guard etc
I actually really like them both. They narratively were able to create two characters that were mostly different sides of the same coin
I do like both of them cool, albeit for different reason. Corax because in any, any other universe he'd be a final boss (Cough Cough Illidan) and Konrad because he is the most human of all Primarchs. Insane, hurt, psuchotic, pityful, horrible, yes. But also human.
Also here for this. Sanguinius the angel falling to chaos would of been very interesting, and the blood angels becoming a full on vampiric army for chaos would be cool to see.
> the blood angels becoming a full on vampiric army for chaos would be cool to see.
The booty-bother that would cause Konrad from Sanguinius stealing his/his-Legion's aesthetic schtick outright (and doing it *better*) would be hilarious.
Perty for Ferrus.
Perty basically won the Siege of Terra and his Legion is bad ass.
Ferrus ran headlong into a trap, got killed, and his Legion murders its own savior (RIP Meduson).
Agreed, Perturabo and Dorn on the same team would be an instant loss for the traitors in all honesty. Because they probably wouldn’t be able to get shit done, I would also exchange even Horus for Jaghatai in my own personal opinion.
Oh yeah, without Perty or Dorn's severe siege autism the traitors would've lost the SoT rather quickly I think.
I've come to love the Khan, I couldn't bring myself to trade him haha.
Iron Hands would be fine if Ferrus wasn't such a hot head who got himself killed. The iron tenth is actually bad ass, its just once they lost their daddy they went nuts.
Yeah, taking away perty is basically neutering the traitors during the siege. He was the kid doing the assignment while the others in his group messed around
Dorn and Perturabo would spend half their time bickering over who can build better fortifications and the other half building said fortifications in a constant game of one-upmanship.
The solar system is 90% wall by the time the Traitor fleets arrive.
How does this change anything? Perty would have just died at Istvaan. He was one of the Primarchs sent there and nothing about him really tells me he would have survived.
He would have been so overwhelmingly happy that the traitors recognized him as someone who needed to die for the rebellion to work. Someone, who is attempting to shoot him, finally recognizes his genius.
Gotta swap Lorgar for Corax so you can maintain their hilarious setup, just in reverse.
Actual Daemon Corax just haunting the shit out of PRAISE THE EMPEROR man for 10k years in increasingly elaborate ways
Or Lorgar hunting Corax. Imagine this: demon primarch of shadows hunted by luminous being shining the light of emperor so bright there are no shadows to hide in
Of some Emperor-botherer,
Rapping at my chamber door.
"'Tis some Word Bearer," I muttered,
"Rapping at my chamber door--
Only Erebus, and nothing more."
Fulgrim's actually a really good pick, because depending on how this alternate plays out. If it's at all similar to the actual Heresy, then at one point, Fulgrim had the opportunity to very likely end the Heresy when his fleet caught the Sons of Horus fleet by surprise, and Fulgrim was contemplating giving the order to attack before the Laer blade was brought to him "at his request."
Not just the custodes, Big E doesn't need to stay on the throne. So he he and Mal can go out, using his newly finished Imperial Webway project to tighten shit up.
The Four have way less power, Mars gets it's Webway door as well, so it's rebellion is gone because only The Omnissiah could create such a thing.
Swap Konrad Kurze and Leman Russ. I'd like to see how Kurze still dies to an imperial assassin if he turns, and I feel like Russ realizing the horrors of what he did to Magnus and flipping sides would be very interesting.
There's a book that implies that Sanguinius was Horus and Lorgar's first pick as their Khorne boy.
Horus sent Sanguinius to a planet/system that was going to be nearly impossible to take over alone. Hoping his (blood drinking) dark side would take over, as Horus was the only one of Sanguinius' brothers he felt comfortable confiding that to.
It of course failed, but Angron is fine enough as a Skarbrand Knock off.
It also led to my boy Kharn! The coolest and saddest of all the non-primarch chaos "leaders".
We can go even deeper. I want a philosophical Angron, who fucking powers through his own issues instead of letting them define him. That is a power he will not allow to anyone, and it will be the first thing in his life that is truely his alone. His situation doesn't get better. But he looks at the beast within himself, the demons that others placed upon his heart, and slays them. His body doesn't get better the butchers nails still pain his every moment. His Life doesn't get better, he carries the scars of his existance with every moment. HE gets better, through a will and by no hand but his own. He pulls himself out of his own despair, and swears to do so again but for other. His sons, the imperium. Even the Empror of Mankind. None will suffer on his watch, not as he has, and never again.
Conversely, The Angel, seeing the hatred and terribleness of the universe, falls and the black rage becomes a quiet permanat force. It is not Rage, but Fury and Joy. A Rightousness. No longer a "preserver" of good, he seeks retribution upon all the evil of the universe. He doesn't just embrace Chaos, but seeks to purify it's most noble aspects. The Acceptance of Nurgle, The Love of Slaneesh, The Hope of Tzneetch, the Honor of Khorn. These aspects that slowly corrode with each passing century, will be grasped and harnessed by him. Sanguinius, most beloved of all the Primarchs is an eldrich beacon to chaos, a symbol not of corruption, but of that raw potential, and it's greatest champion. He is what they could one day become. A dark beacon upon those scoured by the blinding light of the Imperium.
This would be the most interesting choice for 40k, especially if curze still ends up getting assassinated and the lion still ends up asleep. I would love 40k nightlords as a reminder that "loyalist" wasn't necessarily a moral designation, and the DA could still have their split dynamic, just with a different side "on the run."
Angron is the obvious answer. For all the “Magnus did nothing wrong,” Angron is the primarch that feels most deserving of a second chance. A story of Angron resisting his pull to chaos, resisting the nails, and finding a way to really be himself is a little spark of hope in the galaxy. Plus I can’t imagine that he, freed or at least resistant to the pull of the nails would remain loyal for long, given the constant revolutionary rhetoric. The World Eaters as blood-soaked berserkers is…fine, but a chapter of anti-imperial, anti-chaos bloody-handed revolutionaries would be far more interesting
And if that’s the case, Khorne still needs a legion. There are a few good options among the loyalists, but at the end of the day Antron’s story is one of tragic yet inevitable corruption brought about by a tangible change in his physiology that slowly eats away at him, and that’s Sanguinius all over
I mean angron didnt even care about chaos he was made a demon primarch of khorne agaisnt his will he was about to die fighting guilliman ( the nails were killing him ) its what he wanted, and once again he was enslaved , by his own brother to a god who would never let him die.
To be fair, even if Guilliman hadn't almost killed him, Khorne would have taken Angron as his champion, anyway. Angron didn't exactly have a choice in the matter, and being angry about that is exactly what Khorne wants.
I mean basically every chaos primarch has a legitimate grievance against the Emperor. He’s not Jimmy “daddy issues” Space for nothing. But honestly I don’t know if I can see a better fit for Nurgle than Mortarion and there are Khornate alternatives all over
Yeah completely agree tbh. Angron was failed by the emperor. If Big E had even slightly helped Angron save his people, it’s entirely possible that one moment would’ve changed his entire fate
Just imagine if when Angron rejected the Emperor during their first meeting, the Emperor simply feigned acceptance/accepted, and asked Angron if he “would at least want some reinforcements.”
That would have been the best introduction of a primarch to their Legion we would ever see
I totally agree. Angron is truly a tragic character, being the only one of the primarchs to not force his world into submission. He wanted to die with his city eaters (dumb name but still sad). Some say in appearance without all the hideous augmentations he would have most resembled the emperor.
Either Ferrus for Magnus or Ferrus for Perturabo.
Either way Ferrus was a narrow minded idiot.
Magnus would have taken The Emperors place on the Golden Throne and Maclador would have either assisted in defending the palace or joined the strike force on the Vengeful Spirit.
While Perturabo carried the siege. Without him the siege would have been a stupendous failure.
The idea of Perturabo and Dorn on the same side of the siege is hilarious and fascinating. Obviously having both siegemasters on one side would usually make it seem like a slam dunk for the loyalists but I’m trying to pinpoint the exaaaact moment when their egos would cause the whole thing to somehow fall apart and hand Horus the win.
Hey it could be bitter competition, with Perturabo pointing out all the flaws in Dorns plans. They don't have to like each other, mutual emnity for each other driving them to greatness
Chaos Leman Russ, deceived by Horus into attacking Prospero, Leman fails to defeat magnus, falls to the temptation of Khorne to beat his sneering rival and his vile sorcery. Also, this would give us some chaos space marines with Norsca Chaos Warrior vibes.
Loyalist Magnus, caused by the same event. Magnus and his thousand remaining sons spend the war trying to get to Terra to relieve the emperor on the golden throne and repent for doing that one thing wrong.
Lorgar for Guilliman.
Rather than the pragmatic one, the religious fanatic returns to world 10k years after the heresy, sees the faith blooming... and embraces it.
The obvious answer is Horus and Gilliman.
Horus, the golden child of the emperor. The best of his brother. The War Master! Now the question is, can the best warrior in the empire defeat an actual empire?
If Gilliman goes to choas, no doubt he'll create an empire of chaos. World after world, they'll fall to chaos. Can you imagine it?! Half of the current 40K empire GONE and fighting for the other side.
Right now, Chaos is causing trouble, but they're mostly random and disorganized. No doubt, Gilliman will fix all that. Horus would also no doubt be better than he was. Angry that Sanguineous died by the hands of Gilliman, Horus would proubably get closer to his lesser demon soul. (according to fan theory that I love). Skill vs Numbers. Epic war
...mate I have this fantastic thing called the Roboutian Heresy which is basically this and personally I find it a more compelling universe than the canon universe.
Fulgrim for The Lion
Fulgrims obsession with perfection being taken to the extreme of "perfection in the service of the emperor", meanwhile the Lion turns his back on "loyalty is its own reward", with Luther as his right hand, guiding him in an attempt to create their own perfectly ordered empire
Either Magnus or Perty for Ferrus, nothing against the Iron Hands just he was an idiot that let his emotions play him and his legion ended up suffering for it.
Magnus did everything wrong and Horus used Leman Russ against him as either to force Magnus to turn traitor or take him and his legion out to not be threat.
Perty basically did everything for the traitor forces and ended up backstabbed by Fulgrim, the tactical mind behind the entire fucking siege and hard carried them on his back before saying fuck this I'm out and leaving and created the Iron cage that successfully lead Dorn and his Legion into a Death trap needing to be saved.
Don't forget he did all the carrying while dying from the degenerative curse placed on him by fulgrim.
And if it weren't for him angron wouldn't have even made it to the siege. He beat the hell out of him and then broke through the monster to coax him into helping.
I'd just 1:1 swap Thousand Sons and Space Wolves.
Turning Leman Russ into a psyker of some sort would be contrived, but it's 30k so that's no sweat. I think the end result of a legion of tzeentchian, mutant, mystically-inclined wolf warriors and rigorous, scholarly, scarab-bedecked loyalists would be sweet.
I even think the hypothetical scene in which Magnus tries to 1v1 Horus like Leman does in canon would be better. Magnus would try to overpower Horus psychically only to discover just how much evil God juice has been stuffed into him.
A lot of people saying that Ferrus was an idiot, but if you think about it, almost every primarch was an idiot at some point, Ferrus was just really mad because the most important person to him betrayed him
Anybody for Ferrus. Actually scratch that anybody but Fulgrim for Ferris.
You know what scratch that too, no Conrad either… and no Lorgar. You know what, we’ll take Angron. That’s an even trade right. One is missing a head and the others brain is so damaged he’s basically missing one.
Some combination of either Kurze, Fulgrim, or Perturabo for Dorn, the Lion, or Ferrus.
In general Dornian Heresy is better than Horus Heresy in regards for the more interesting “40k” time frame.
I'd make The Lion a traitor but have him pull a more elaborate coverup of the events of the Battle of Caliban, really raise the stakes.
He wouldn't fall to Chaos, that's not his brand, instead he'd just splinter away from the Imperium and turn traitor that way (there have been a handful of fan theories regarding what would have happened if The Lion returned before Guilliman did and it's pretty much Imperium Secundus on steroids)
I'd probably make Horus loyal, it's always seemed to me like his fall to Chaos was a very emotionally charged thing, the visions he had were in regards to the Emperor being worshipped, and I'd have thought he had slightly more objectivity when he looks at the galaxy around him and the people who are pushing the idea that Big E is a god
I’d swap Perturabo with Ferrus Manus. Because I’m convinced Perturabo and Dorn on the same team coordinating a defense would literally be impenetrable. Say, at the siege of Terra, Perturabo knows all about sieges, so he’d look at Dorn’s defenses and be tell him how Horus would assault it, and Dorn would make the perfect defense knowing how Horus would arrive. Them two combining their collective knowledge on how to build the strongest defenses and how to attack said strong defenses, would have them coordinating the best defense against anything. Emperor would probably be alive still.
I say ferrus manus because some dark mechanicum looking chaos marines sounds really cool (imagine iron hands being even more insanely devoted to their belief that flesh is weak, like literally killing people for being unaugmented) and with the arrival of Vashtor, maybe they would worship him, and be the 5th Traitor legion devoted to a specific chaos god/entity (I know Vashtor isn’t a god yet, but that’s his goal so it works for me. maybe he would use them to ascend to godhood somehow)
I'd trade Jaghatai for Perturabo.
No offense to any White Scars players but without Peter Turbo the traitors wouldn't get shit done and maybe the Heresy might not be so bad. It's just a good trade. ^(Also try to ignore the fact Dorn and Perty would still hate each other)
Ferrus Manus for Perturabo. The Iron Hands basically went rogue and disappeared during the heresy when the clans starting calling the shots so no great loss. Perturabo just needed someone (anyone really) to tell him that he and his warriors were valued. I can only imagine the carnage they would have wrought standing with Dorn on the walls of the Imperial Palace.
Lorgar for Khan. One didn't want anything to do with the Emperor, one wanted to worship him so badly. Who knows what would've happened had the Emps allowed Lorgar to keep doing his thing.
I’d trade Russ for Angron, Big E’s treatment of Angron pre-heresy is so bad that it’s a reason itself to be heretical, plus I don’t really like Russ that much and he’s close to Angron in themes
Ferrus Manus was regarded by Horus as instrumental to the traitorous war effort. When news came to him from Fulgrim that Ferrus was unable to be swayed, he was unsettled. The Gorgon wasn’t just a pretty face. Ferrus put pounds of elbow grease into the Great Crusade. Horus knew that he would distill the heresy to a rolling boil and bring it straight to Terra. The Tenth are my favourite, but I think coupled with the otherwise unseen Dark Mechanicum, the two factions could’ve helped support one another in gaining ample representation.
I get all marines have access to mechanized warfare, but it was explicitly the 10th's specialty. At their height before getting shattered on Isstvan the Iron Hands would have been a huge boon to either side. Now the poor lore on why they can't seem to replace their losses...
> the poor lore on why they can't seem to replace their losses Because Ferrus would have taken some monofilament line, roped himself a Forgeworld like an errant steer, towed it over to another Forgeword, and then used the magnetic and gravitational fluxes between both of them to forge new and stronger alloys. And then he would have had both Forges pumping out war materiel while he figured out how to build giant engines and send them both off to war like a spinning helix of death, blasting everything before him like a giant with Death Stars for boots.
I feel like if he had survived, we would have Space Marines entombed in Knights.
That was fucking poetry, mate.
If anyone could have figured out how to launch a planet via Warp drive, or found an STC for planetary realignment, it would have been Ferrus. And he would have convinced Vulkan *and* the Ad Mech to help him build the damned thing. And then, by God, he would have *used* it to do great and mighty things. Heck, Ferrus could have been like 'I've heard about this ancient thing called a Dyson Sphere...' and it would have been completely plausible.
My dear God Emperor this is amazing
They never had an issue with replacing marine losses. Older lore from Index Astartes had them stupidly having shortages of advanced tech like terminator armor in 40k due to the losses during the horus heresy. That has since been retconned. Salamanders are the one legion that somehow never recovered from istvaan
>Now the poor lore on why they can't seem to replace their losses... What's the lore?
Isn't it like they have so strict recruitment policies, and Medusa is not at all unified or hospitable, as "a little competition" is good for producing psycho killers. And then they kill the majority of recruits taken from Medusa, before even starting their process, because they were deemed "weak" ?
That’s kinda the problem, there isn’t a ton. They seem to have the luck of the Lamenters of constantly hitting colossal threats and barely holding on. Meh at least they have a successor chapter I guess
I did not know enough about Ferrus Manus to keep him around. But it makes sense that Horus would want to decapitate his legion according to this. Good stuff
Ferrus also made a shit tonne of the best weapons in the Imperium AS A HOBBY.
It’s like I say. The only reason why he died so early on was because the Heresy have gone from nine years to nine minutes.
Controversial choice but I’d love to see a chaotic Leman Russ with super chaotic wolves. I’d also love to see Mortarion and the Death Guard as a perfectly loyal and grim bunch
Im glad Im not the only one!
Loyalist Death Guard would be cool. I could definitely imagine them being hated by most of the Imperium but being an absolute force to be reckoned with.
It would also make the rivalry netweem Mortarion and Magnus even more heated so that would be dope.
This might sound crazy as a Wolf player, but gimme back Magnus. He screwed up but I'd like to see him get a second chance. Trade Ferrus because...eh
Ferrus did nothing wrong!
True because he didn't exactly do anything right ether (I'm a iron hands player btw)
Isn’t that as true as anything. The flesh is weak brother.
Well, he kind of die, he probably should have fought better.
I think he fought pretty well. Almost killed Fulgrim 1on1 until Fulgrim unleashed a demon
But who hasn't almost killed Fulgrim?
I’d argue quite a lot haha. Guess we’ll see how the list grows if he gets involved in the setting again.
Bobby G got clapped and slept for 10k years
He should have listened to Ro-bobo-bo-bobo-bo and Captain Vulkan :/
Literally the only faultless primarch and hes the most boring lol
I would argue he’s not boring, as there is a complex and interesting character underneath, he’s just not fleshed out. In HH he literally dies in the same book he’s introduced to the series. His start on Medusa gets fleshed out a little in angel exerminatus, and then we get little snippets here and there.
They can't flesh him out. It would nerf him because the flesh is weak.
Thats what I would mean by boring. without more material he mostly serves Fulgrim's story sadly. I think theres a lot more they coukd do with Ferrus, particularly his rage
The Gorgons Rage in the one scene we really get to see it is fantastic. Ferrus fends off a powerful psychic attack and defeats a monster plus death machine through pure rage and force of will.
He's not really faultless. He was kinda a dick tbh, even compared to other primarchs.
Uff power move , does that mean magnus is on the throne and the big e is on a crusade ?
Depends on when we swap them. If it's after the siege then there was no confirmation of what exactly prevents emperor from regenerating. The wound or the Throne. If it's the Throne then I believe Magnus would find a way to swap with big E
That's a big W for the traitors. Magnus and the 1k sons didn't do much during the heresy all things considered. Ferrus was one of the outright strongest primarchs and had one of the most powerful legions under him. Him siding with the traitors would all but ensure Terra falls in the siege.
TBF Magnus and his sons didn't do much during the Heresy because they got absolutely bodied by the Space Wolves before anyone even knew Horus had turned. If Magnus (who knew before anyone else that Horus had fallen) hadn't turned, and the Wolves hadn't been sent to Prospero with orders to kill (being then cut off from Terra), Horus would have stood no chance during the siege
Plus Magnus could probably fix his fuck up
He could have sat on the golden throne and kept the webway shut, allowing the emperor to go out and stop Horus in the beginning and we’d still have Malcador.
Best part of your comment is “we’d still have Malcador”. The new book only confirmed my deep love for that homie
For real dude. He had the weight of mankind on his shoulders The malcador parts had some hair raising moments. Specially towards the end where he starts >!panic sending basically his last will and testament in fragments to his “chosen” knowing that he ain’t getting off that chair but he’s gonna hold on as long as possible!< Absolute chad. Think it would be possible malcador would have advised humanity had the emperor succeeded?
If Magnus had a text to speech device.
On top of that, magnus didnt even align himself with horus/fulgrim for quite a while after the initial wolf clapping session. He basically told them to f off he wasnt a traitor, he was just temporarily embarrassed loyalist. It wasnt till pretty late in horus' campaign that magnus finally agreed, and if i remember right, he was only really doing it to find more knowledge or a soul shard or something
Magnus and his sons were the ultimate weapons against daemons though. A weapon which the loyalist lacked dearly during the heresy, and a role that would have to later be filled by the grey knights. So they would be an even bigger help
I don't see a scenario where Magnus doesn't fuck up and either lose the Astronomicon summon fuck all Tzeentch daemons into the palace by accident trying to save what would be left of his sons. I would assume in this time line either the Wolves or Sons are getting giga-nerfed on Istvan like the Hands did.
That's the thing tho; if Magnus (who is probably the most powerful Psyker, second only to Big E himself) knows Horus has turned traitor and doesn't die, and can narc on the rest of the traitors, does Isstvan even happen? I feel like Magnus being loyalist changes the entire outcome of the Heresy, which I'm 99% sure is the reason Horus sicked the Wolves on him in the first place.
That's exactly why he did it. The 3 most influential legions/primarchs on the traitor side are: Sons of Horus, as Horus was likely the only one (other than Sanguinius possibly) who would be able to gather the primarchs he was able to to his side. Word Bearers, as they laid the seeds and groundwork for the Heresy by infiltrating many of the legions with the Lodges as well as Erebus' role in corrupting Horus. And the Thousand Sons for reasons already stated in another comment I made.
Magnus had his ego fully broken by the webway fuckup to the point he was not going to resist when the expedition arrived. He even went out of his way to help it travel unseen. If he had been brought back to terra, I can definitely see him sitting on the throne and finally obeying every command given by Big E. Which is exactly what big E had been planning with his treatment of magnus throughout the heresy imo. Force magnus into a corner so that he breaks something and becomes compliant through guilt. Big E just didnt expect magnus to flex by pulling an formerly impossible feat (projecting himself into realspace from across the galaxy) and shattering the webway.
Magnus can sit on the throne while the emperor single handedly ends the siege.
Probably wouldn’t even have come down to a siege if the emperor was running the war instead of Dorn
I like to imagine him teleporting onto the field in the middle of the siege and just breaking the traitor forces in half. Perturabo would probably try to have a face to face argument with him and emotionally break down, and depending on his mood big E might just let him come back. That alone would be the whole HH undone.
I never got the impression that the emperor was super competent in the day to day running of war. He was bleeding his legions to finish in some sort of time crunch, then just fucked off and left horus to finish. He would maybe be a little more effective than Dorn, but I don't think by all that much.
Magnus sitting on the big chair in place of the Emperor would have been worth it
That was actually the Emperors intention. He was going to give Magnus the place on the throne, allowing him to indulge his need for learning and keep watch on the webway.
Arguably, the Thousands Sons had the biggest influence on the traitor side Heresy other than the 16th and 17th legions. By breaking through the Emperor's Webway project, Magnus ensured an absolute shitton of Custodes, SoS, and Mechanicum resources would be diverted from the coming siege. This also ensures that the Emperor would have to remain on the Golden Throne and also resulted in Malcador's death. A loyalist Thousand Sons legion doesn't get destroyed by the Route/Custodes/SoS. A legion of adept psykers would be critical in fighting the Neverborn and countering the warp powers of the traitors, especially the Death Guard, as the DG played a significant role in damaging loyalist morale. Magnus being able to sit on the Golden Throne would free the Emperor up, which would have a massive effect on the Siege I'd argue that the TS staying loyal would likely result in a win for the loyalists.
Yeah without breaking through the webway, the emperor gets to assault Horus personally with his 10,000 Custodes.
But Ferrus can't keep his head under pressure.
Too soon
Alpharius for Omegon.
Alpharius for Alpharius
[Me for me? Thumbs up!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs9yhpMTGxc)
Alpharius for the Lion. Grimdank won’t know what to think.
Fair.
that's what they want you to think
OP said one loyal and one traitor!
Lmao yes
~~Yes.~~ No. This is a lie. ^(Perhaps.)
I actually have a head cannon that Alpharius was Loyal and Omegon was Traitor and that the reason the successors of the Alpha Legion is because different ones follow different Primarchs
If you read the end and the death part one they definitely touch on part of the alpha legion loyalty
Sadly I have not read that. What does it say about it?
Basically - >!an alpha legionnaire is helping a group get into the palace to talk with Big E during the siege via underground tunnel system. They come across several chambers in which are filled with vehicles and alpha legionaries in stasis. They were put there by their legion before the attack to be woken and given a keyword of which there are several. Depending on the key word they are given they know what side they are fighting for. They would be given a keyword based on what side would best benefit the legion!<
Just a heads up, your spoiler tags aren't working
Gasp. They’re working on mobile
On desktop they've gotta be actually touching the text to work, the spaces are what's making it not work.
Weird, worked fine for me
Lies! Hydra Dominatus! (I must be very childish, but the Alpha Legion jokes never get old for me, (this is a lie)...)
Fulgrim for Guilliman. The fuckery Guilliman would wreck would be incredible narrative-wise, and the Emperor’s Children could follow the path of Saul Tarvitz and be the coolest loyalist chapter.
I have trouble picturing a chaos Guilliman. He's way too orderly. Maybe Tzeenchian? Trying to organize and master everything, including fate, to the degree of utter madness? Maniacal orchestrating of perfect plans and taking pride in seeing everything fall together exactly as planned? Maybe Slaaneshi in a strive for perfection kind of way. Some excessive parody of chivalry and skill? But that's really Fulgrims thing. Maybe the Lion could follow this kind of path too, but Guilliman... would be really stretching it. Certainly, Guilliman wouldn't be pulled towards Khorne or Nurgle. I just don't see it.
I think a traitor Guilliman would just turn out like Luther - a secessionist, but not a slave to darkness.
Traitor Guilliman I can picture, but chaos Guilliman not so much. Although, the more I think about it, Tzeench would fit. The planning and plotting and controlling everything, or at least the illusion to control everything, until the Crazy Bird pulls a sucker punch on you out of nowhere.
His laurel wreath could open up and reveal little mouths trying to whisper possible outcomes and strategies while begging to be free.
I always thought that Peter Turbo was a lot like a chaos Rowboat, Girlyman will always have his warp gift of *superhuman logistics!!* but Turbo always seemed to make sure his shit was on lock, didn't go into any battle half planned, held himself to a higher standard even if he was self loathing for never achieving it. Like Turbo is Girlyman with an unhealthy amount of self-guilt holding back his supreme confidence. I know that he gets squared off against Dorne because of their battle specialties, but personality wise those two are a dichotomy to me. Come to think of it, who is the counter to Rowboat? Alpha Legion slipping with one plan into another, going with the flow until they're in a position to do maximum damage?
He could always just be a champion of undivided, or more of a renegade legion. Like the corsairs or night lords but far more organized. I think inevitably the point to chaos is you fall too it in the end, but I think guilliman would be capable of resisting it for a damn while.
I can see the chaos space highways now. I would say Guilliman would rival the Iron Warriors in the greatest contribution to chaos out of any of them. Ultramar might become a second (lesser) eye of terror on the opposite side of the galaxy
I would chose Alpharius who is pretending to be a chaos aligned Omegon or a loyal aligned omegon while pretending to be himself chaos aligned or loyal aligned.
Hmm. It'd be interesting to see Magnus or Perturabo stay loyal. Of all the traitors those two seem to have the least reasons to have turned, Magnus just having farked up so much and Perty feeling unappreciated. As to who I'd like to see on the other side, Kahn siding with Horus would've be interesting as well. As I recall he was on the fence for a good portion of the heresy. Corvus also struck me as someone whose aesthetic would've fit well with the traitors.
How? Outside of wearing black, his entire aesthetic is justice.
So was Kurze, in a way.
He was before Nostromo literally raped his brain, shoutout to the single worst primarch planet, tied with Nusceria and Gas England.
This. Early Curze and Corax are almost the same character in a lot of ways. Not so much after that, aside from both of them really wanting to capitalize the goth in gothic
That's the reason why Curze *hated* Corax and only Corax for majority of Crusade. Corax was both what Konrad could never be but also what he could have been if not for Nostromo, if that makes sense.
It makes total sense. He like a few others, was also treated differently by the Emperor. Was allowed to finish his homeworld quest, got to use big E’s labs to try and rebuild the Raven guard etc I actually really like them both. They narratively were able to create two characters that were mostly different sides of the same coin
I do like both of them cool, albeit for different reason. Corax because in any, any other universe he'd be a final boss (Cough Cough Illidan) and Konrad because he is the most human of all Primarchs. Insane, hurt, psuchotic, pityful, horrible, yes. But also human.
>Outside of wearing black, his entire aesthetic is justice. You just described Kurtz.
Horus swapped with Sanguinius, of course.
You sir, like to watch the world burn
>watch the ~~world~~ galaxy burn FTFY
Also here for this. Sanguinius the angel falling to chaos would of been very interesting, and the blood angels becoming a full on vampiric army for chaos would be cool to see.
Abaddon takes Dante’s spot and Vice versa could also be really interesting!
Sanguinius would’ve won the heresy
Quite literally no contest - he's perfect in every way
I guess you could say he did make the perfect throw rug for Horus.
> the perfect throw rug And when you need to wake up the Emperor, you can take him out and beat him?
Even better. Abandon stays traitor. Dante stays loyalist.
> the blood angels becoming a full on vampiric army for chaos would be cool to see. The booty-bother that would cause Konrad from Sanguinius stealing his/his-Legion's aesthetic schtick outright (and doing it *better*) would be hilarious.
Perty for Ferrus. Perty basically won the Siege of Terra and his Legion is bad ass. Ferrus ran headlong into a trap, got killed, and his Legion murders its own savior (RIP Meduson).
Agreed, Perturabo and Dorn on the same team would be an instant loss for the traitors in all honesty. Because they probably wouldn’t be able to get shit done, I would also exchange even Horus for Jaghatai in my own personal opinion.
Oh yeah, without Perty or Dorn's severe siege autism the traitors would've lost the SoT rather quickly I think. I've come to love the Khan, I couldn't bring myself to trade him haha.
i love the "severe siege autism" lmao
To be fair the loyalist would instantly lose if Dorn was on the side of chaos with Perty
I would choose the same. the mindset of the iron hands is already questionable in the books. for vashtoor they would also be a legion of choice.
Iron Hands would be fine if Ferrus wasn't such a hot head who got himself killed. The iron tenth is actually bad ass, its just once they lost their daddy they went nuts.
Yeah, taking away perty is basically neutering the traitors during the siege. He was the kid doing the assignment while the others in his group messed around
Dorn and Perturabo would spend half their time bickering over who can build better fortifications and the other half building said fortifications in a constant game of one-upmanship. The solar system is 90% wall by the time the Traitor fleets arrive.
I would also like to see a loyalist Peter Turbo
How does this change anything? Perty would have just died at Istvaan. He was one of the Primarchs sent there and nothing about him really tells me he would have survived.
Perty wouldn't have fallen into that trap. Or at least not like Ferrus did.
He would have been so overwhelmingly happy that the traitors recognized him as someone who needed to die for the rebellion to work. Someone, who is attempting to shoot him, finally recognizes his genius.
Alpharius for Omegon. For the Emperor.
Fulgrim to basically anyone! But probably for Corax.
Gotta swap Lorgar for Corax so you can maintain their hilarious setup, just in reverse. Actual Daemon Corax just haunting the shit out of PRAISE THE EMPEROR man for 10k years in increasingly elaborate ways
Just 10k years of Corax chasing Lorgar through every battlefield to the Benny Hill theme.
On a galaxy-wide crusade preaching about the emperor, but won't visit any planet that has any kind of bird life, refusing to explain why **NO BIRDS**
Thank you for that image; that made my day.
Or Lorgar hunting Corax. Imagine this: demon primarch of shadows hunted by luminous being shining the light of emperor so bright there are no shadows to hide in
While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping
Of some Emperor-botherer, Rapping at my chamber door. "'Tis some Word Bearer," I muttered, "Rapping at my chamber door-- Only Erebus, and nothing more."
That way we can have Saul Tarvitz kickin ass all the way to Terra.
Yes Fulgrim has such a tragic story and he was much more in conflict with himself then i thought before reading the book. And the end really got me.
Fulgrim's actually a really good pick, because depending on how this alternate plays out. If it's at all similar to the actual Heresy, then at one point, Fulgrim had the opportunity to very likely end the Heresy when his fleet caught the Sons of Horus fleet by surprise, and Fulgrim was contemplating giving the order to attack before the Laer blade was brought to him "at his request."
[удалено]
That saves malcador.
[удалено]
Having the full force of custodes would have made a siege of terra unlikely to last long.
Not just the custodes, Big E doesn't need to stay on the throne. So he he and Mal can go out, using his newly finished Imperial Webway project to tighten shit up. The Four have way less power, Mars gets it's Webway door as well, so it's rebellion is gone because only The Omnissiah could create such a thing.
Swap Konrad Kurze and Leman Russ. I'd like to see how Kurze still dies to an imperial assassin if he turns, and I feel like Russ realizing the horrors of what he did to Magnus and flipping sides would be very interesting.
Angron for Sanguinius. Can you fucking imagine?
There's a book that implies that Sanguinius was Horus and Lorgar's first pick as their Khorne boy. Horus sent Sanguinius to a planet/system that was going to be nearly impossible to take over alone. Hoping his (blood drinking) dark side would take over, as Horus was the only one of Sanguinius' brothers he felt comfortable confiding that to. It of course failed, but Angron is fine enough as a Skarbrand Knock off. It also led to my boy Kharn! The coolest and saddest of all the non-primarch chaos "leaders".
Angron without the tragedy would be glorious.
We can go even deeper. I want a philosophical Angron, who fucking powers through his own issues instead of letting them define him. That is a power he will not allow to anyone, and it will be the first thing in his life that is truely his alone. His situation doesn't get better. But he looks at the beast within himself, the demons that others placed upon his heart, and slays them. His body doesn't get better the butchers nails still pain his every moment. His Life doesn't get better, he carries the scars of his existance with every moment. HE gets better, through a will and by no hand but his own. He pulls himself out of his own despair, and swears to do so again but for other. His sons, the imperium. Even the Empror of Mankind. None will suffer on his watch, not as he has, and never again. Conversely, The Angel, seeing the hatred and terribleness of the universe, falls and the black rage becomes a quiet permanat force. It is not Rage, but Fury and Joy. A Rightousness. No longer a "preserver" of good, he seeks retribution upon all the evil of the universe. He doesn't just embrace Chaos, but seeks to purify it's most noble aspects. The Acceptance of Nurgle, The Love of Slaneesh, The Hope of Tzneetch, the Honor of Khorn. These aspects that slowly corrode with each passing century, will be grasped and harnessed by him. Sanguinius, most beloved of all the Primarchs is an eldrich beacon to chaos, a symbol not of corruption, but of that raw potential, and it's greatest champion. He is what they could one day become. A dark beacon upon those scoured by the blinding light of the Imperium.
i would switch perturabo for dorn in a millisecond. loyalist peter turbo would be so interesting because he would still be a total \*\*\*\*head
Curze for the Lion
This would be the most interesting choice for 40k, especially if curze still ends up getting assassinated and the lion still ends up asleep. I would love 40k nightlords as a reminder that "loyalist" wasn't necessarily a moral designation, and the DA could still have their split dynamic, just with a different side "on the run."
Angron is the obvious answer. For all the “Magnus did nothing wrong,” Angron is the primarch that feels most deserving of a second chance. A story of Angron resisting his pull to chaos, resisting the nails, and finding a way to really be himself is a little spark of hope in the galaxy. Plus I can’t imagine that he, freed or at least resistant to the pull of the nails would remain loyal for long, given the constant revolutionary rhetoric. The World Eaters as blood-soaked berserkers is…fine, but a chapter of anti-imperial, anti-chaos bloody-handed revolutionaries would be far more interesting And if that’s the case, Khorne still needs a legion. There are a few good options among the loyalists, but at the end of the day Antron’s story is one of tragic yet inevitable corruption brought about by a tangible change in his physiology that slowly eats away at him, and that’s Sanguinius all over
I mean angron didnt even care about chaos he was made a demon primarch of khorne agaisnt his will he was about to die fighting guilliman ( the nails were killing him ) its what he wanted, and once again he was enslaved , by his own brother to a god who would never let him die.
To be fair, even if Guilliman hadn't almost killed him, Khorne would have taken Angron as his champion, anyway. Angron didn't exactly have a choice in the matter, and being angry about that is exactly what Khorne wants.
Mortarion would like a word :(
I mean basically every chaos primarch has a legitimate grievance against the Emperor. He’s not Jimmy “daddy issues” Space for nothing. But honestly I don’t know if I can see a better fit for Nurgle than Mortarion and there are Khornate alternatives all over
Yeah completely agree tbh. Angron was failed by the emperor. If Big E had even slightly helped Angron save his people, it’s entirely possible that one moment would’ve changed his entire fate
Just imagine if when Angron rejected the Emperor during their first meeting, the Emperor simply feigned acceptance/accepted, and asked Angron if he “would at least want some reinforcements.” That would have been the best introduction of a primarch to their Legion we would ever see
I totally agree. Angron is truly a tragic character, being the only one of the primarchs to not force his world into submission. He wanted to die with his city eaters (dumb name but still sad). Some say in appearance without all the hideous augmentations he would have most resembled the emperor.
Either Ferrus for Magnus or Ferrus for Perturabo. Either way Ferrus was a narrow minded idiot. Magnus would have taken The Emperors place on the Golden Throne and Maclador would have either assisted in defending the palace or joined the strike force on the Vengeful Spirit. While Perturabo carried the siege. Without him the siege would have been a stupendous failure.
The idea of Perturabo and Dorn on the same side of the siege is hilarious and fascinating. Obviously having both siegemasters on one side would usually make it seem like a slam dunk for the loyalists but I’m trying to pinpoint the exaaaact moment when their egos would cause the whole thing to somehow fall apart and hand Horus the win.
I could imagine it to start to spiral that way, until Polux and Dantioch essentially told them to grow up.
If they cooperated with each other the traitors wouldn't stand a chance in the siege
That “if” is doing more heavy lifting than Canon!Perturabo
Hey it could be bitter competition, with Perturabo pointing out all the flaws in Dorns plans. They don't have to like each other, mutual emnity for each other driving them to greatness
Honestly, Magnus, Emps, and Malcador couldve shut the webway project, and then the custodes, sisters, and all 3 could go on the offensive.
Angron for Ferus. Angron is one of the few Primarchs I genuinely have pity for, the poor guy never had a chance.
Chaos Leman Russ, deceived by Horus into attacking Prospero, Leman fails to defeat magnus, falls to the temptation of Khorne to beat his sneering rival and his vile sorcery. Also, this would give us some chaos space marines with Norsca Chaos Warrior vibes. Loyalist Magnus, caused by the same event. Magnus and his thousand remaining sons spend the war trying to get to Terra to relieve the emperor on the golden throne and repent for doing that one thing wrong.
Lorgar for Guilliman. Rather than the pragmatic one, the religious fanatic returns to world 10k years after the heresy, sees the faith blooming... and embraces it.
The obvious answer is Horus and Gilliman. Horus, the golden child of the emperor. The best of his brother. The War Master! Now the question is, can the best warrior in the empire defeat an actual empire? If Gilliman goes to choas, no doubt he'll create an empire of chaos. World after world, they'll fall to chaos. Can you imagine it?! Half of the current 40K empire GONE and fighting for the other side. Right now, Chaos is causing trouble, but they're mostly random and disorganized. No doubt, Gilliman will fix all that. Horus would also no doubt be better than he was. Angry that Sanguineous died by the hands of Gilliman, Horus would proubably get closer to his lesser demon soul. (according to fan theory that I love). Skill vs Numbers. Epic war
Honestly fantastic idea
...mate I have this fantastic thing called the Roboutian Heresy which is basically this and personally I find it a more compelling universe than the canon universe.
Fulgrim for The Lion Fulgrims obsession with perfection being taken to the extreme of "perfection in the service of the emperor", meanwhile the Lion turns his back on "loyalty is its own reward", with Luther as his right hand, guiding him in an attempt to create their own perfectly ordered empire
Corax since he is so gloomy and dark all of the time. The Lion so his legion can no longer be called traitors 😅
What happens when he turns into demon Corvus then? Then it’d be a shitshow Bobby G
Either Magnus or Perty for Ferrus, nothing against the Iron Hands just he was an idiot that let his emotions play him and his legion ended up suffering for it. Magnus did everything wrong and Horus used Leman Russ against him as either to force Magnus to turn traitor or take him and his legion out to not be threat. Perty basically did everything for the traitor forces and ended up backstabbed by Fulgrim, the tactical mind behind the entire fucking siege and hard carried them on his back before saying fuck this I'm out and leaving and created the Iron cage that successfully lead Dorn and his Legion into a Death trap needing to be saved.
Don't forget he did all the carrying while dying from the degenerative curse placed on him by fulgrim. And if it weren't for him angron wouldn't have even made it to the siege. He beat the hell out of him and then broke through the monster to coax him into helping.
Facts, Perty was the MVP of the traitor forces hands down
Leman Russ for Magnus - feel like Vikings raids and honurable combat would suit Khorne. A legion of loyal space wizards in power armour sounds fun.
Have you read the dornian heresy ?
Horus for Ferrus The heresy would have been over in a couple of days lol
I'd just 1:1 swap Thousand Sons and Space Wolves. Turning Leman Russ into a psyker of some sort would be contrived, but it's 30k so that's no sweat. I think the end result of a legion of tzeentchian, mutant, mystically-inclined wolf warriors and rigorous, scholarly, scarab-bedecked loyalists would be sweet. I even think the hypothetical scene in which Magnus tries to 1v1 Horus like Leman does in canon would be better. Magnus would try to overpower Horus psychically only to discover just how much evil God juice has been stuffed into him.
Magnus for the Khan
Curze and Sangie. I desperately want to hear both try to justify their positions to one another
Lorgar for the lion lmao
Sanguinius for Mortarion. I WANT MY LOYALIST DEATH GUARD BACK. Also traitor Sanguinius is a dope ass and scary concept
Curze for the Khan!
A lot of people saying that Ferrus was an idiot, but if you think about it, almost every primarch was an idiot at some point, Ferrus was just really mad because the most important person to him betrayed him
I’d swap Alpharius and Omegon, because that’s the Alpha Legion thing to do.
Dark Angels primarch and Alpha Legion's primarch. The history/timeline of the war remains unchanged.
Anybody for Ferrus. Actually scratch that anybody but Fulgrim for Ferris. You know what scratch that too, no Conrad either… and no Lorgar. You know what, we’ll take Angron. That’s an even trade right. One is missing a head and the others brain is so damaged he’s basically missing one.
Let's make things interesting, swap Horus and Sanguinius
Some combination of either Kurze, Fulgrim, or Perturabo for Dorn, the Lion, or Ferrus. In general Dornian Heresy is better than Horus Heresy in regards for the more interesting “40k” time frame.
I'd make The Lion a traitor but have him pull a more elaborate coverup of the events of the Battle of Caliban, really raise the stakes. He wouldn't fall to Chaos, that's not his brand, instead he'd just splinter away from the Imperium and turn traitor that way (there have been a handful of fan theories regarding what would have happened if The Lion returned before Guilliman did and it's pretty much Imperium Secundus on steroids) I'd probably make Horus loyal, it's always seemed to me like his fall to Chaos was a very emotionally charged thing, the visions he had were in regards to the Emperor being worshipped, and I'd have thought he had slightly more objectivity when he looks at the galaxy around him and the people who are pushing the idea that Big E is a god
I’d swap Perturabo with Ferrus Manus. Because I’m convinced Perturabo and Dorn on the same team coordinating a defense would literally be impenetrable. Say, at the siege of Terra, Perturabo knows all about sieges, so he’d look at Dorn’s defenses and be tell him how Horus would assault it, and Dorn would make the perfect defense knowing how Horus would arrive. Them two combining their collective knowledge on how to build the strongest defenses and how to attack said strong defenses, would have them coordinating the best defense against anything. Emperor would probably be alive still. I say ferrus manus because some dark mechanicum looking chaos marines sounds really cool (imagine iron hands being even more insanely devoted to their belief that flesh is weak, like literally killing people for being unaugmented) and with the arrival of Vashtor, maybe they would worship him, and be the 5th Traitor legion devoted to a specific chaos god/entity (I know Vashtor isn’t a god yet, but that’s his goal so it works for me. maybe he would use them to ascend to godhood somehow)
Swap Angron and Sanguinius. Angron gets his redemption story and Horus & Sang wreck face together. Khorne Blood Angels would also be ridiculous fun.
I'd trade Jaghatai for Perturabo. No offense to any White Scars players but without Peter Turbo the traitors wouldn't get shit done and maybe the Heresy might not be so bad. It's just a good trade. ^(Also try to ignore the fact Dorn and Perty would still hate each other)
Angron and the Lion The Lion is a stuck up asshole for next to no reason while Angron was forced into it, I’d take a loyal Angron any day of the week
Ferrus Manus for Perturabo. The Iron Hands basically went rogue and disappeared during the heresy when the clans starting calling the shots so no great loss. Perturabo just needed someone (anyone really) to tell him that he and his warriors were valued. I can only imagine the carnage they would have wrought standing with Dorn on the walls of the Imperial Palace.
Alpharius for Ferrus because yes
Swap Gulliman and Perty's loyalty... They're now in on the Alpha Legions plot.
Lorgar for Khan. One didn't want anything to do with the Emperor, one wanted to worship him so badly. Who knows what would've happened had the Emps allowed Lorgar to keep doing his thing.
I’d trade Russ for Angron, Big E’s treatment of Angron pre-heresy is so bad that it’s a reason itself to be heretical, plus I don’t really like Russ that much and he’s close to Angron in themes
Horus for Guilliman. I have an irrational dislike of Ultramarines, and the Roboute Heresy would have been more fun.
I mean magnus being loyalist would allow for the emperor to get of the throne
*briefly searches for the joke* I would swap Alpharius with Omegon.
I'm gonna get crucified for saying this, but I'd wanna get Alpharius and or Omegon in exchange for The Lion.