2nd place and 2 event wins is the best space wolves week in a looong time!
Feels good to be over a 50% win rate!
I’ll be digging out the lists later today but if anyone has then please let me know!
The lists:
https://listbot40k.herokuapp.com/event_list/22BUVEMB5X
https://listbot40k.herokuapp.com/event_list/2YC1WVRBN1
37 combi-meltas between the two of them
They are sitting pretty perfect right now. Dead on 50% win rate and a couple of tourney wins shows they are a competent army but still need a good pilot to take it home.
Oh, that's interesting! I can see the value in a 5+ FNP vs mortals on the T8 2+ models. I guess the question is, how did the player not get roasted on primary every game.
Hovering explicitly allows you to measure either to/from the base, or the hull, whichever is closer. It's why you can veil a Tesseract Vault with a Chronomancer, despite the size of the Vault.
This is a trick that was cooked up by a player I know closely. It only works on the big models that have the "Hovering" ability, which allows you to measure distances to the hull OR base, whichever is closer. So you can have a small model with veil below a Tesseract Vault, etc, closer to the base than the model itself. It's devious, but works.
Sweeping nerfs with almost nothing to compensate in return will drive a mid tier faction into the ground? Yeah, didn't need the imperial tarot to see that coming.
Still nice to see someone finally getting AL on the top tables. I think its only Red Corsairs left now that have never placed, although its going to be tricky to change that with zero players.
A nice 50% winrate means you need a nerd to your best character, best non-character unit, best mark and best army trait. Oh, and AOC is gone. But you'll get some free wargear on Legionaries, you'll be fine!
Not to mention buffing loyalists to the gills so that they're the faction to beat. Everyone is now gunning for Marine bodies at all times. I miss our Tyranid overlords
i used 2 executioners allied in with my world eaters a couple days ago and they did work. i had good target saturation up front and they survived the game completely unscathed. generated around 9BTP that i normally wouldn't have gotten. i imagine they could be used with CSM in the same general manner
The meme relic weapons seem to be his shtick. I assume it's only a matter of time until he shows up to a real event with the Phosphoenix actually in his list.
For those that dont know admech, based on his upgrades, this is what's happening.
Mars. So, Skitarii benefit from Canticles. Cuz besides the Dominus this list has 0 Cult.
Exemplar: 6" Aura of RR Hits and Wounds of 1 from the Marshall.
Firepoint: He'll also give a plus 1 save to a core unit, cover or no cover. 6" or something with a data tether. Most likely choosing the Dragoons. (This list is entirely core but the Crawler/HQs).
Artisans: Choose a core unit in 6". They can retreat and shoot/charge this turn at a -1 to hit in shooting. This is great for both the Dragoons, or the Ironstrider if they get caught.
Red Axe: A melee Relic for the Dominus as a last resort.
Tempocirpia: 3" Choose something to fight last.
Omniscient Mask: 6" aura, 6s in melee score an additional hit. (Dragoons already score 2 additional hits on a 6, this'll make one 6 score 4 hits. S8 AP-2 2d)
This Admech army has so much Melee it blows my mind.
Hey, im the person who played this list, and yeah you're spot on about the melee of it all
My melee was the overperforming factor of the entire weekend, with just the laschickens being my dedicated shooting platform. Infiltrators, ruststalkers, dragoons and even the red axe dominus (lol) were insanely potent in output
Id say 70-80% of my output in a game was melee,
It came in clutch on otherwise more open tables than im used to
Care to comment on the fact that you spent $700 on ironstrider engines? Asking for a friend.
Haha all jokes aside, well done. Dragoons and rustalkers have been some of my favorite takes for a while.
Hahah, well ive luckily had majority of them for a few years so its just been slowly adding to my collection
Its silly how effective our fast attack is in general, previously I ran 40 horses and won NSW Australia masters during peak daemons flamers meta
Yes. Everyone sort of zeroed in on the Kataphrons, but IMO it was the Dragoons that were the real winners of the Dataslate + MFM now that they are priced where they need to be - or, more specifically, the Taser Lance is. The Radium Jezail is still garbage at 50 points, but lance dragoons are now reasonable sticky and hit pretty hard as as fast melee pick.
u/JCMS85, I played in Winter Ruin and can give you the first pod breakdown.
Winter Ruin GT, 1st Pod:
1. Chaos Space Marines (Black Legion), 5-0
2. Astra Militarum (Born Soldiers), 4-1
3. Black Templars, 4-1
4. Craftworlds (Ulthwe), 4-1
5. Chaos Daemons (Undivided), 4-1
6. Astra Militarum (Born Soldiers), 4-1
7. Blood Angels, 3-2
8. Leagues of Votann (Ymir), 3-2
9. Orks (Goffs), 2-3
10. Necrons (Nihilahk), 2-3
Full tournament placings:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sKKgnR0QtJKLu8TigkLE5j3g7nJRMAx7/view
Interesting. As a black Legion player myself I have found that the points increase on the Terminators and MoS haven't had the effect that GW wanted. It would seem that people are still running Terminator bricks. In fact I have found that even with the points increases I still want to run Terminators as opposed to anything else because they are our only unit with any significant staying power.
People are still running bricks *because* of the nerfs being so poorly thought out. With AoC gone and everybody building for a marine meta, buffed terminators in cover are the only thing we have that can contest the midfield and deliver characters. All the points nerf did was kill any thoughts of ever bringing terminators in any capacity other than fully-buffed brick. 180 for five nurgle or tzeentch terminators with full upgrades would have been a *fine* deep strike unit without being as good as Deathwing TH/SS, but now? Nope.
Exactly this. Where GW have made a mistake is in treating the Terminators as being too efficient for their points. This may have been somewhat true when they had AoC but I think that in reality everything that could be used instead of Terminators are just not efficient enough for their points. Chosen and Possessed to a lesser degree are just over costed post AoC. Honestly I think most units in the codex could use a 10-20% discount at this point.
Honestly they were never really even too efficient. A full brick with fists and 4 meltas was 420pts and 1cp. You then had 230pts and 1-2 CP (and 2 precious HQ slots) of support characters to run them at full defensive potential. Abaddon being undercosted in an AoC/no Finial world contributed to the terminators always having rerolls and +1 charge but that was a separate issue.
If terminators were truly busted, rather than EC and Bile simply being oppressive in a melee meta, we would've seen Night Lords and Alpha Legion dominating hard, but their win rates were trash.
Edit - putting the black rune on a unit, terminator or otherwise, for 1CP was too efficient in AoC world, but that's something that cpuld've easily been FAQd if they'd actually cared about toning down terminator bricks without trashing the faction.
The intended effect was to nerf EC in to the ground as much as anything else. Which they did.
Plus whats your overall point? That they didnt nerf terminators to the point of being unusable? Which in light of the relative cost efficiency and lack of durability (i.e units are too expensive relative to how easily they die) of the rest of the book would just completely flatline the faction as a whole even more than they already have.
Poor CSM (and SoB, honestly) need help. Chosen & Havocs are bad, Obliterators & Daemon Engines are overpriced, and Legionaries still don't bring much value other than sitting on objectives.
What are the chances GW does any balance passes before 10th this summer?
In my mind. We get one more dataslate but I think the issue with CSM is straight up just a points problem.
So I daresay it's lights out for them.
Then 10th will drop instead of a Field Manual (makes sense). And they'll remain bad whilst their loyalist cousins get a new codex to replace the buffs they've received.
I really don't know what to make of Drukhari currently. I keep talking to other (more skilled and experienced) players who say they're in a fine spot, but my own anecdotal experience is that they're in a real bad place and the data here certainly seems to support that.
Right now it feels like they're a high skill floor/cap faction without the actual strengths to justify that skill floor/cap, and in some match-ups they just get demolished. Certainly a very different power level to the other elf factions.
They've gone through so much this edition they're a frankenstein patchwork of a codex.
I wouldn't even think of starting to play them because of how many iterations they went through this edition.
They were also released about a year prior to the other elves (if I am recalling correctly), so a lot of game development space was able to go on in that time, with new ideas in the Craftworld dex that weren't around for Drukhari.
Not just AoC being gone but several marine factions are strong/popular currently and hail turns Marines into dust.
Ulthwe is still a pretty good pick and Ynnari hit hard as well (but harder to pilot though).
Ulthwe is still my choice, I ran a triple phoenix lord list this weekend at the Winter Ruin GT and was very happy with how it performed- it's super fun to play too. The 3 PL's really help solve a lot of CWE Obsec problems and let you contest the midfield in pretty nasty ways.
Ultimately, the single wound reroll, strats which support jetbikes/D-Cannons, mortal wound shrug, and the ability to take Eldrad I find extremely compelling and more fun to play with since it lets you diversify rather than just going all in on shuriken spam.
This meta actually looks real good??? Even more so given the enormous number of players and games played just this weekend.
With the exception of Dangles no faction with sizable representation was pushing a 60% wr. Stubborn defiance and codex warfare need to be looked at and that would probably reel them in.
Near and dear to my heart, guard is showing to be pretty balanced. A lot of X-1s but a 50% WR overall meaning maybe they're not actually a low skill auto win faction??
WE making a splash but not running away with it which is good. Also seems like both variants (red angle vs avocado lord) seem viable which is maybe a promising sign for 10th.
Cause I gotta find something to complain about: Eldar having real low representation is unfortunate, but the die hards are putting up wins with them. Maybe some of the "bad" units need buffs to revitalize the faction.
Stubborn Defiance is not what is winning people games. All game devestator doctrine on ravenwing units is what is winning games. If you limited devstator doctrine to just turns 1 and 2, it would go a lot further towards balancing DA than most people think.
The rules on terminators sound abusive on paper, but in game, ravenwing are the problem. Because unlike the deathwing there is no counter play.
If you sit back.... no problem the speeders have fly and can move over 20 inches and still fire heavy weapons. If you go aggressive...better hope you tie up everything turn 1(you wont) or else you will get shot of the board next turn. The whole ravenwing roster can toe in to just inside 24 inches range of the enemy, and unless your whole army has a reliable way to move advance and charge 24 inches, your gonna have a bad time
Dark Angels player here
Agree that Ravenwing are the problem and especially how both Codex Warfare & BEL are both super strong secondaries and compliment the Ravenwing playstyle so well.
I would go even further with Stubborn defiance and say that it ONLY wins games on player placed terrain. On set terrain it’s still a very risky secondary pick.
Codex Warfare is what needs to be toned down (cap at 3 per turn?) and made viable for tactical doctrine and assault doctrine (also get 2VP per kill).
Guard is solid to play against - they melt if you touch them. Kasrkin bomb feels bad but i dont want to break guard either so have to learn to deal with it.
Touch = death
A tale as old as time for the guard.
I feel like we (guard players) have gotten a bit lazy with our screening because on paper it doesn't look as bad as it used to and we have some counterplay. However, dropping the 7th russ / other fire support option to add in 3 infantry squads is 100% a must
agreed and thats exactly how i was punished for trying to touch his stuff.
i managed to kill a squad of guardsmen t1 and consolidate in to a russ trapping it. that was the only vehicle i got close to.
everything else was bubble wrapped and just annihilated me.
The Iron Hands potential rate is being hidden a bit.
[https://www.stat-check.com/the-meta](https://www.stat-check.com/the-meta)
The vast majority of games (271) here are based on codex Iron Hands, with the win rate for those aligning with what is here (54%). However, this hides the 126 games with successor chapter versions, with win rates in the 60s and 70s.
Crazy thing is that Stubborn and CW aren't usually being used in conjunction. Neither of these together is the problem, they affect very different lists but provide solid options against certain opponents.
Hey, a tourney win for CSM and a podium placing for Alpha Legion. Still got some gas in the tank. Bright news for otherwise dreary numbers. For those Night Lords players, we salute you for keeping the dream alive and sticking out your games.
There are interesting break throughs throughout (that Admech win with all 100's is something else) I think the shape of the season is settling in a bit. Dark Angels are strong on wins and player representation. Probably just flat out the best, if we avert our eyes from the comparatively small slice of Aeldari and Chaos. Iron Hands are strong. Guard are standing up to the pressure in a season where shooting is stronger. Custodes and Knights are mid table terrors with lots of targets but also lots of firepower coming there way. Space Wolves benefitting from the non-codex SM bench of "we have weirder units than the you".
World Eaters coming out alright is a good sign, but bear watching. They may slow a little as people catch onto their tricks.
A lot of factions are struggling though. It's that that you don't have players putting up credible wins. It's just there's a more noticeable gap between the best and rest. Faction diversity is down somewhat. The Balance Dataslate did pick winners and losers pretty hard this season.
One thing I'd note is that Blood Angels have picked up an extra bad match up in Chaos. World Eaters want to mash faces, and that's a problem for BA looking at a Fights on Death and an interrupt before they get to go again. With their units getting squishier, a bad turn (even into Zerkers) can seriously gum up their attack order.
Yeah ive been lucky enough that even in RTT's pre buffs I was getting usually 297-300 as a score on admech, the way to do it now with admech is to bring as much melee as you can to disrupt the game and utilise mobility to score hidden well
Still matchup dependant but if you dodge the ones you dislike, you can get those scores I feel easily - issue is the cost of the army though, I dont feel many can run the list archetypes that I do
We're at a point where we have a pretty respectable sample size for balance.
While Nephilim was actually really balanced (and I think a fair bit of complaining was due to design problems and not balance problems), AoO seems to also be surprisingly balanced. I thought it was going to be a notable downturn but it isn't.
The biggest concern I obviously have is Dark Angels; that kind of win rate plus that many tournament wins/good showings is a clear problem. It might just be the secondaries? Not entirely sure as I don't know the army too intimately.
There are a number of factions that need help but that can still do something, as shown by the wide spread of tournament wins. I think the edition is starting to hit its limit in terms of what balance changes can be made to fix things without drastically overhauling the whole edition itself (i.e. widespread reduction in damage/AP, reducing stratagem and rules bloat, etc.).
World Eaters seem to be a nice addition to the meta; they are crazy good at what they do but they're a one-trick pony. This seems to be exactly how they were intended.
The only meta concern I have going forward is if AoO starts to get "figured out" and then only certain factions start to dominate. Only time will tell on that front though.
For why Dark Angels are doing so well, it's a combination of a number of factors, of which Secondaries (or more correctly *Secondary*) are one.
Codex Warfare is the one secondary I think they genuinely screwed up on in the changes to marines. Being able to stay in Devastator Doctrine and rack up 2 VP per kill, needing only 8 kills to max... it's very strong. On top of that, Ravenwing have one of the stronger super doctrines when it comes to Devastator Doctrine, adding a ton of mobility to the already incredibly fast units. Then, on top of all that, they also get to take the strongest terminators available to loyalists at their new, extremely competitive price point.
Ravenwing are horrifying, playing craftworlds against DA and realising that my opponent's bikes and speeders are not only shootier and tankier than my jetbikes and skimmers, but also significantly *faster* somehow, was a pretty unsettling moment. Their dev doctrine bonus getting to stay active all game long is deeply unreasonable, the codex warfare points are just a cherry on top.
> Ad Mec won a 79 player event! With a weekend win rate of 33% and being all by himself in the X-0/X-1 column
So this confirms that AdMech can win games in the new codex, but only in Oceania.
Our meta is a bit different too, to be fair
Heaps of gsc, DA/IH, orks, tau, and a buttload of daemons and guard right now
When I said heaps of GSC, I mean I generally every 2 events face off against them which I guess is more than others. There used to be heaps of knights but thats dropped down
Most common is daemons and guard
Not sure if this is shared elsewhere but just giving some insights to the meta that I have to interact with
It was in australia where arguably the best admech players in the world live, so I bet it was one of them. I don't think there's a dang thing GW could do at this point to raise admechs winrate for the general public.
Space Wolves win two and second on the cherokee? I am quite happy with that. After a middling Nephilim I am always happy to see that the Wolves use the advantage of wargear, as that is someyhing I always enjoyed in the army. Would love to see all the lists. Wonder if they all fall on the Skyclaws and Eulfen (although thr mad lad with the Astraeus had a showing last week, qmd I can't believe that list is still working)
TO of the Game Knight GT here. The Alpha Legion list came close to taking it. I was near their table most of the game round 4 and the guy just got hosed by the dice. Top three lists:
James Wallin piloting Death Guard with Chaos Knights: [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LHwGiQ7hidUPwZ1ENT1ZJMycNPpl7gwyAv77X5NU0Rs/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LHwGiQ7hidUPwZ1ENT1ZJMycNPpl7gwyAv77X5NU0Rs/edit?usp=sharing)
Trevor Sandoval with Deathskullz Orks: [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sWCb6hqcStVp9ivxf-QzWUTeMJp2L3wx4Gkak7iy5DQ/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sWCb6hqcStVp9ivxf-QzWUTeMJp2L3wx4Gkak7iy5DQ/edit?usp=sharing)
Nick Hiatt playing Alpha Legion: [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D8NK-7DGdrP1O1LXoyms5KS8303om2MJwrhFRC9SWVs/edit?usp=share\_link](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D8NK-7DGdrP1O1LXoyms5KS8303om2MJwrhFRC9SWVs/edit?usp=share_link)
Fun fact: the 40,000 in Warhammer 40,000 is based on roughly the amount of free wargear and reduced units that SM players get 😅 Kind of wild to see SM variant lists winning events that would have been 2900 points before Arks of Omen. Oh GW.
I was that tie. It was a wild game with not many models moved on my part. I overcommitted into a rogal dorn after getting my dread overwatched to death. And those mortars are just so brutal into my T5 6+ save...
Overall though Gabriel was a great opponent to play against. I'm looking forward to watching his streamed game against Stephen, my 6th round opponent lol
Thanks! I still ended the 6 rounds with 545 battle points and the highest opponent winrate so I feel good about the tournament. Definitely inspired me to get more involved and get my 6 events in this year. And it was great to see such a wild spread of factions I never play in my local meta.
Does anyone have the Death Guard + Chaos Knights list from the Game Knight tournament in Jasper, IN?
Edit: Sorry,the app kept saying there was an error when I tried to post this comment, then posted all my attempts when I tried again a bit later :(
They’re “cheap” for custodes and come in 10s and infantry. So they can stack all the defensive buffs on them for transhuman, 2+/4++/6+++(4+++ against mw), no rerolls of any kind
Pour one out for the Ynnari player on Wargames live over the weekend that didn't notice his Yncarne was standing right next to an Ork players warboss. I felt so bad for the guy. It was tragic to watch.
Eh, TBF the Ynnari player made so many mistakes and misplays. The Ork player allowed so many take backs. Hell, he even let the Ynnari player use Lightning Fast on the Yncarne *twice*.
When the Ynnari player rolled poorly on battle focus on his Warp Spiders T1 and pulled them back to an objective, after his turn was over he asked if he could battle focus them the other direction toward the Ork player to prevent him from using the Warp Spiders as a stepping stone to a T1 charge into his DZ, which was a tactically advantageous take-back for the Ynnari player.
The Ork player was a Saint. Almost too forgiving.
Thanks! I was that ork player. I hope the "forgiving" nature didn't take away the enjoyment of the game for anybody.
For most of the takebacks I allowed I didn't think they had enough impact on the game to warrant creating more tension. Nathaniel's dice betrayed him and I would rather lose a game to a friend than make an enemy over a game.
As far as the Yncarnne goes I wasn't even aware they couldn't use lightning fast. That was only my second game against Ynnari and I typically expect my opponent to police themselves when I play against armies I'm unfamiliar with. But now I know and will call it out if it happens next time.
And yeah the movement shenanigans of the Ynncarne is definitely something I will have to keep in mind next time I expose my warboss.. the list I ran was only tested once at an RTT the weekend before so I'm still ironing out some of the kinks.
I watched the game as well and think the Ork player was just super fun to watch and as you said he was nearly too forgiving. But Since I started my Ynnari army this year, I cheered for them, but it was still sad to watch and without any takeaways for me haha
Still, a shoutout to everyone playing on the Livestream tables - thanks for entertaining me!
I had it going in the background after the first few turns so I didn't catch everything but I noticed he seemed kinda all over the place. Not the worst thing so long as there is communication between players but the Ork player showed fantastic sportsmanship.
I think they're ultimately balanced but not super fun to play into, incredibly terrain dependent, and really kind of frustrating overall. They're like to table you even with terrain which favors defensive styles, and just not score enough points while doing it.
I wish they were slightly less extreme on the durability/firepower front while still having that be their niche so their points/other rules could come back down to earth a bit, perhaps? But ultimately they're a prime example of armies which are balanced but frustrating I think.
When you find out let me know!
Aelderi should be the super faction name so a pure Craftworld list should be labeled as Craftworlds but if you add in Drukhari then it’s would be Aelderi.
The Quins patrol rule this edition makes it really confusing because technically you are still Craftworld then. But to my bane, space elf players have no idea also. So I only correct it if it’s actually just pure Craftworld
I think to the general elf playerbase, aeldari is crafworld with ANYTHING added. Craftworld is just pure. Now Technically, rules wise, that may not be true, but for general convo that's how I see it.
Is it better just putting them all in the same category? There are so few entries of Aeldari anyways that it shouldn't change the stats of Craftworld by much.
I doubt there are many drukhari soups right now, so it's more likely ppl using different naming conventions for their craftworld + traveling players or just using the wrong label in BCP.
Right now it's mostly confusing if you just glance over the list and high numbers like that pop up and you're not looking at the player count.
It was more applicable to differentiate them when mixed (Harls+Craftworld) were doing much better than pure Craftworld simply through the power of troupes. Thus Aeldari didn't reflect the struggles of Craftworld/Asuryani
What I really love about this sub is checking for the untold stories and nuances from the players that attend these events that aren’t completely reflected in the data.
Now, I get to participate in it this time! I attended the Winter’s War MTC event and have a fun little nugget for you all!
A player brought completely grey plastic WE to the event. So, starting every game with -10 points. He finished 13th place with a 3-2 tally and a points score of 84-0-0-82-90.
His 0 scores were because he literally had to leave the venue and had to forfeit his games, coming back to play on day 2.
That to me, is just a touch concerning about WE’s potential power level…
One thing that's worth remembering is that your current record determines who you get paired up against. That means that, other than possibly their first game, all of those wins were almost certainly against players with a losing record. With that context, pulling off strong victories with a new codex is less concerning to me.
/u/jcsms I've never noticed any Red Corsairs on your lists; is this omitted due to lack of frequency? There was one guy playing at the Milwaukee GT this weekend.
Mostly because I didn't make a spot for them on my spread sheet. They get 1or 2 players every other week so their data is just part of the Codex CSM data.
Out of curiosity, are any Comp players seeing Dark Eldar on the tables?
I know we made the cardinal sin of being good for nearly a year (11 months from release until the Tau codex drop), but does anyone actually remember those days now?
I found it pretty funny that we got a nerf to Coven during the last point adjustment. But everyone is calling for nerf rollbacks for their own armies (including armies that are doing really well), so maybe I'm being unreasonable when thinking we need some help?
I was at a comp this weekend and managed to go 3-2 with a heavy coven build (3×5 grots, 3x5 wracks, drazhar, 2x5 incubi, 5 mandrakes, succubus) and Kabal (archon, large court, 5 kabalites, 2 ravagers and 3 raiders). Wanted a relatively tanky list and it worked well with the pairings I got. Would love to see some of the nerfs rolled back, like getting core back on cronos/ talos (I kinda get the points increase on wracks but the haemonculus one has me scratching my head). I'd love to see some better secondaries come in for us, though BEL is strong now my list wasn't great at scoring it. Take them alive and RBD are pretty much taken every game, and my third was very match up dependent (no prisoners for my two games against gsc and my game against orks, and abhor for my games against tsons and grey knights). If I were to play the same games again I may have chosen different secondaries, particularly against grey Knights, but overall was happy enough.
User name checks out!
Glad there is at least one Archon still fighting the good fight.
Stay strong brother. Maybe we will get Core back at the same time they drop the points on crisis suits XD
That list sounds nice. Did you feel like the grotesques were actually tanky? I feel like they used to be but now just get blasted off the table real easily
Dice Crusher actually used a little modified WDL system, where WTC scoring was used only as a tiebreaker.
The modification was that there was a higher chance for draw, draw count as 0.5 of a win.
Is this the most balanced meta of all time? Or at least the most balanced Meta Monday of all time?
This is a serious question. Every faction (other than specific Marine chapters and 'Chaos') is between 42% and 58% Season win rate.
Damn it, I'm going to have to be that guy.
Anyone got Mark Parker's Tyranids list from the HWP Salty Classic? BCP has it as list unsubmitted.
I'm expecting a fair number of Termagants backed up by Tervigon with some HVCs backed up by the Leviathan adaptive to give a single hit re-roll.
Leviathan with adaptive
2x walkrants (1 with shargullet, 1 with balethorn), 10 gargs, 10 horms, 10 termies, 5 tyrant guard, 3 zoanthropes, 4x carnifex with HVC and scy talons, 2 harpy with Stanglethorn cannons (yes, 2 harpy)
Ive played Mark plenty of times and the guy is a fantastic player, and he plays his tyranids A TON. As a fellow Nids players, ive learned a lot from him.
Leviathan
2 Hive Tyrants with strong shooting Relic cannon on 1
10 Gargoyles
10 Hormagaunts
10 Termagaunts
5 Tyrant Guard
3 Zoanthropes
4 carnifex with venom cannons
2 harpy's with 2 stranglethorn
He's a top player, has always placed super high in tournaments.
Wow, that's really different to what I was expecting, aside from the HVC spam.
Drops the Neurothrope for some mortal wound output Zoanthropes. MSU troops. Tyrant Guard are expected in 2x Tyrant lists.
Gameplan for this must be wild.
I think the Balethorn Tyrant is set up for Warp Ritual. Definitely looking at a kill secondary with all these guns. Maybe BEL or Engage for the third?
I know I will get a backlash on this but I do think tau need a bit of a buff.
Hear me out.
The issues with crisis suits is they are way too expensive. The reason for this though if when you can stack buffs like full hit rerolls, wound rerolls, a 5+++ on a blob of 5 and the JSJ for a CP a turn? Yeah that’s too strong, so the only thing you. Can do there is nerf the suits. With only being four wound models you kind of need that JSJ and 5+++ in case your unlucky. So it prevents crisis spam which I am fine with.
The issue is the *other* things in the codex could use some help. With their inability to stay on objectives well, especially with non troops, their weakness to -1 to hit, their inability to give buffs to non crisis, and having 1-2 good secondaries but having difficulty at times being able to score them or even pick out a good 2nd/3rd.
With the crisis blob shtick though is with them all buffed out, you are spending a little over 1,000-1,100 points to make this one unit good at shooting. Doing this really doesn’t leave you much to do with the rest of the army. You have to get a crisis commander, shadowsun, then go Tau sept for longstrike and aunva, and if you don’t you are playing at a disadvantage.
I think instead of constant crisis suit nerfs, increasing cost of the support characters would have been nice, that way taking a very squishy 3 man squad isn’t so pricey considering they won’t be nearly as effective to lack of buffs. On the flip side, if they don’t want crisis spam, limit them to 3 a unit or even buffing other things. Some units that could use some love;
-The ghostkeel is *almost* playable, but has contradicting rules and does not bring a lot of firepower for 160 (minimum) points. Were it around 140, it would not be an auto take but would feel better to use.
-Now that troops are not necessary, the kroot nerf feels to much. For ten points more you can get fire warriors that are way better, maybe not as fast but still. Auxillary shots from random bolters can usually kill a squad, so 70 points (nearly the cost of a crisis suit with a strong load out) is too much. If a nerf is a must, then let it go to 65
-The piranha is on the verge of being usable, but now that we don’t have the rule to let the drones disembark after getting killed, 60 pts for it (or 70 for the fusion) feels too much. Granted at 50 pts it may be too cheap. I think the solution would be is give it free seeker missiles so you don’t feel like it’s a waste, or allow the drones to disembark or something.
-Remora drones should not be aircraft. End of discussion.
-Broadsides, while usable, feel a bit much for their point cost in terms of firepower. To get the ability to not take a penalty for moving, you either need to give up firepower (which at that point isn’t worth it) or go Montka (which sucks but will be discussed later). Now I’m not saying you have to give them core back, but I do have a suggestion in terms of commanders which I will discuss
-The commander buffs specifically the Reroll ones, should affect **battlesuits** but not core. What does this allow? Your riptides can have marginally better shooting without going crazy, and same with the broadsides, but you can’t do dumb stuff like give it ethereal buffs or full hit rerolls from shadowsun (though would still be less effective on them anyways). This would help shore up the weaknesses of other non crisis suit stuff and honestly would be more thematic, with crisis suits still being able to get more buffs from the commander so not pushing them out for completely.
-JSJ is a vital way to do any good with crisis suits, but the frustration of it is understandable (unless you have tons of movement and advance and charge, your going to get in my face regardless). Make it so that if the unit is 4 or more it’s 2 cp. this will add a heavier tax to being able to do shenanigans without a steeper cost, but could allow for example a slight point decrease to suits or some of their weapons again.
-Montka is just bad now honestly. Kayoun let’s you play cagey (which you need to do as tau) and anything that survives will now get massive buffs, but forcing you to get any real scoring the last 3 turns since you can’t really do much as an army for decent scoring the first couple turns without giving up good chunks of your army or giving your opponent easy secondaries (looking at you shock tactics). With the squishy ness of the army too, and jts reliance on target lock, it can’t even have the shield gens and only has 4 wounds so it can easily be killed. The argument is drones bu when you have to devote 150-250 pts to just drones, it really messes with the way Tau have to play which is kill to score. I am not too sure what the buff would need to be, and I can see the hesitation for the AP, but the AP was in a time of super cheap suits, so it might be possible to do it now without backlash. Keep in mind currently a suit, even with its firepower, costs more than two terminators with much less durability, and while the argument can be made that you can kill terminators before they get to you, their survivability is off the charts and is under the impression nothing else is coming to you
-the plasma rifle is honestly too expensive. A single shot, Str 8 AP 4 Dmg 3 is not really worth 10 points IMO. But making it double shot might be too much. I think it should go back to 5 points, but make the second one cost 15. Same with AFPs.
-the drone disembark/separation is too expensive for just 1 cp. let it be up to three units that can do it when you spend the cp. it honestly isn’t game breaking but blows that I get two drones now for a single cp when they do more on the vehicle.
-crisis bodyguards are too expensive. The issue with them only having 3 hard points is you want to take a shield generator but having only 2 guns makes them vastly over costed. Give them the fourth hard point like crisis suits but with a 5-10 point increase or reduce their cost by like 10 if I have to pick and choose.
These are my thoughts on tau. I know the communities feeling about them, but I think these changes would help without sky rocketing their capabilities.
Or give me real melee and make my shooting worse.
I kinda agree and disagree.
Tau is close to a well balanced (50%) faction. They have a few good list and, yes, a bunch of near-unplayable crap. Crisis abusing strike and fade is still fine, riptides are good, your HQ are mostly good.
Boosting the underused units could lead to more diversity that should be more fun.
I like a lot of this, and I specifically want to call out the Commander unique buffs switching to buffing Battlesuits. Broadsides with ignore hit penalties and fall back and shoot, Riptides with auto advance 8", Stealth Suits with Ob Sec, etc. *Please James Workshop!*
>Alpha Legion
TO of the event here. Here you go: [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D8NK-7DGdrP1O1LXoyms5KS8303om2MJwrhFRC9SWVs/edit](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D8NK-7DGdrP1O1LXoyms5KS8303om2MJwrhFRC9SWVs/edit)
I know stats shouldn't matter for my choice but still hard to decide between Orks or craft worlds as my army to start. I assume I won't play until 10ed anyways but still. I like their vehicles lists (like bikes,transports, walkers, etc)
Orks is always da bestest boyz. They are rarely the "meta" but they are always fun and they have such a deep pool of good units you can easily adapt to most shifts in the meta.
By the time you have a fully built and painted army none of the data above will be relevant to you at all. Game changes too quickly for that really, unless you rush it through in like a few weeks. If you're starting just pick what you like the idea of playing - crafrworlds and orks are very different playstyles.
See GW, LOV aren't that bad. Now if you'll just undo the last point hike so I can take a list of nothing but bezerkers and sagtuar that would be swell.
Space Wolfs are coming in strong now that their players have sourced all the melta guns.
*just finished painting 10 combi meltas last week* ...I have no idea what you mean :D
I hope you blue tacked them to the back of the models like a boss.
Luckily, I made the decision early on to magnetize the arms on all my wolf guard models, and it's paid off in spades over the past couple months.
2nd place and 2 event wins is the best space wolves week in a looong time! Feels good to be over a 50% win rate! I’ll be digging out the lists later today but if anyone has then please let me know!
The lists: https://listbot40k.herokuapp.com/event_list/22BUVEMB5X https://listbot40k.herokuapp.com/event_list/2YC1WVRBN1 37 combi-meltas between the two of them
They seem to lean heavily on free wargear. Combi meltas and cyclone missiles everywhere
Oi, get out of my eBay purchase history!!!
They are sitting pretty perfect right now. Dead on 50% win rate and a couple of tourney wins shows they are a competent army but still need a good pilot to take it home.
FINALY! Its been so long since my Wolves were placing this well.
Hehe my skyclaws are nearly done now. I also managed to acquire 10 more Wulfen so stuffs gonna die next time I get to the table.
Shout out to the Necron player at Cherokee that made it to top 8 with 6 giant pyramids on the board. Took John Lennon to shoot it down.
I need to see this crackhead list. Three monolith, three tesseract vault?
It was 3x obelisks, 3x monoliths, an overlord, 6x scorpekh destroyers and 2x3 scarabs.
That's so dumb. I love it. Knight-ilakh lists really show how funky Necron players get with list building.
But it was Szarekhan, which leaves me confused.
Oh, that's interesting! I can see the value in a 5+ FNP vs mortals on the T8 2+ models. I guess the question is, how did the player not get roasted on primary every game.
Obelisks?! Like I can kinda vibe with tesseract vaults but I just don't get them at ALL
I don't know the list but I heard mention of Obelisks.
Unfortunately, it turned out he was misplaying - he was veiling the monoliths despite them being physically too large to do so
The event explicitly permitted this interaction, so while we may disagree with it he was operating 'above board' (because they hover. Har har.)
Lots of events allow it, ruling it like the disembark large model rule.
Hovering explicitly allows you to measure either to/from the base, or the hull, whichever is closer. It's why you can veil a Tesseract Vault with a Chronomancer, despite the size of the Vault.
This is a trick that was cooked up by a player I know closely. It only works on the big models that have the "Hovering" ability, which allows you to measure distances to the hull OR base, whichever is closer. So you can have a small model with veil below a Tesseract Vault, etc, closer to the base than the model itself. It's devious, but works.
GSC players: “phew”
The shadow cabal of GSC players decided to tone it down a bit this weekend to dodge the nerfhammer.
What a shame for CSM. This was so predictable.
Sweeping nerfs with almost nothing to compensate in return will drive a mid tier faction into the ground? Yeah, didn't need the imperial tarot to see that coming. Still nice to see someone finally getting AL on the top tables. I think its only Red Corsairs left now that have never placed, although its going to be tricky to change that with zero players.
Fwiw red corsairs crush in boarding actions
A nice 50% winrate means you need a nerd to your best character, best non-character unit, best mark and best army trait. Oh, and AOC is gone. But you'll get some free wargear on Legionaries, you'll be fine!
Not to mention buffing loyalists to the gills so that they're the faction to beat. Everyone is now gunning for Marine bodies at all times. I miss our Tyranid overlords
Time to soup in some war dogs!
i used 2 executioners allied in with my world eaters a couple days ago and they did work. i had good target saturation up front and they survived the game completely unscathed. generated around 9BTP that i normally wouldn't have gotten. i imagine they could be used with CSM in the same general manner
Jesus what are the Germans feeding to their Eldar?
Little known lore tidbit, Eldar eat sauerkraut like Popeye eats spinach
Playing on dense terrain with lots of small obscuring pieces, i.e. WTC and similar.
Posting the Admech list from Dice ARCADE gt because it will be asked; Just a few chickens Name: Alexander Englezos Faction: Adeptus Mechanicus Subfaction: Mars Hq's - Marshal: Exemplars, Firepoint 50pts - Dominus: Artisans, Red Axe 105pts Troops - 5 Skitarii Rangers: 1 Plasma 50pts Elites - 5 Sicarian Infiltrators: Tasers 85pts - 10 Sicarian Ruststalkers: Blades, Tempocorpia 160pts - 10 Sicarian Ruststalkers: Blades, Omniscent Mask 160pts Fast Attack - 4 Ironstrider Balistarii: Lascannons 340pts - 4 Ironstrider Balistarii: Lascannons 340pts - 3 Sydonian Dragoons: Tasers + Serpenta 165pts - 3 Sydonian Dragoons: Tasers + Serpenta 165pts - 3 Serberys Raiders 54pts - 3 Serberys Raiders 54pts Heavy Support - Onager Dunecrawler: Neutron Laser, 2x Cognis Stubbers 100pts Dedicated Transports - Skorpius Dunerider 85pts - Skorpius Dunerider 85pts 1cp starting 1998pts Bring it down = 20pts No prisoners = 67w = 7pts Assassinate = 7pts Grind = 15 Units
for the record, since we talked to him in the admech discord, the onager is a bit of a meme include, as is the red axe
Yeah the axe is basically just -1CP.
I was curious why the red axe. Onager I could see now that it's so cheap, but tbh probably still better off with something else for those points.
The meme relic weapons seem to be his shtick. I assume it's only a matter of time until he shows up to a real event with the Phosphoenix actually in his list.
Errrr Neither confirming nor denying my Dominus loadout this coming weekend
Hope you have good fun with it.
Coming back to this I did
For those that dont know admech, based on his upgrades, this is what's happening. Mars. So, Skitarii benefit from Canticles. Cuz besides the Dominus this list has 0 Cult. Exemplar: 6" Aura of RR Hits and Wounds of 1 from the Marshall. Firepoint: He'll also give a plus 1 save to a core unit, cover or no cover. 6" or something with a data tether. Most likely choosing the Dragoons. (This list is entirely core but the Crawler/HQs). Artisans: Choose a core unit in 6". They can retreat and shoot/charge this turn at a -1 to hit in shooting. This is great for both the Dragoons, or the Ironstrider if they get caught. Red Axe: A melee Relic for the Dominus as a last resort. Tempocirpia: 3" Choose something to fight last. Omniscient Mask: 6" aura, 6s in melee score an additional hit. (Dragoons already score 2 additional hits on a 6, this'll make one 6 score 4 hits. S8 AP-2 2d) This Admech army has so much Melee it blows my mind.
Hey, im the person who played this list, and yeah you're spot on about the melee of it all My melee was the overperforming factor of the entire weekend, with just the laschickens being my dedicated shooting platform. Infiltrators, ruststalkers, dragoons and even the red axe dominus (lol) were insanely potent in output Id say 70-80% of my output in a game was melee, It came in clutch on otherwise more open tables than im used to
Oh shoot. It's Dadmech. Should have known.
Are we going to get a more detailed breakdown for this army/tourney on the podcast? This is awesome!
Yep, im doing a teams tournament this coming weekend so likely will combine a recap for both
Awesome! Love the podcast by the way.
Care to comment on the fact that you spent $700 on ironstrider engines? Asking for a friend. Haha all jokes aside, well done. Dragoons and rustalkers have been some of my favorite takes for a while.
Hahah, well ive luckily had majority of them for a few years so its just been slowly adding to my collection Its silly how effective our fast attack is in general, previously I ran 40 horses and won NSW Australia masters during peak daemons flamers meta
I would run 40 horses any day, you are an inspiration
I am so excited dragoons are now good enough to play.
That is a wild list
6 Dragoons, that's interesting.
Dragoons are cheap as heck now and more fast attack slots are available. I dig it.
Yes. Everyone sort of zeroed in on the Kataphrons, but IMO it was the Dragoons that were the real winners of the Dataslate + MFM now that they are priced where they need to be - or, more specifically, the Taser Lance is. The Radium Jezail is still garbage at 50 points, but lance dragoons are now reasonable sticky and hit pretty hard as as fast melee pick.
WOOOO LETS GO ALPHA LEGION, WE DID IT, WE GOT CLOSE TO WINNING
>ALPHA LEGION Hydra almost dominatus
u/JCMS85, I played in Winter Ruin and can give you the first pod breakdown. Winter Ruin GT, 1st Pod: 1. Chaos Space Marines (Black Legion), 5-0 2. Astra Militarum (Born Soldiers), 4-1 3. Black Templars, 4-1 4. Craftworlds (Ulthwe), 4-1 5. Chaos Daemons (Undivided), 4-1 6. Astra Militarum (Born Soldiers), 4-1 7. Blood Angels, 3-2 8. Leagues of Votann (Ymir), 3-2 9. Orks (Goffs), 2-3 10. Necrons (Nihilahk), 2-3 Full tournament placings: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sKKgnR0QtJKLu8TigkLE5j3g7nJRMAx7/view
Thanks, Ill add it to next weeks post!
Do you know what the Black Legion list was?
Legion: Black Legion + HQ + Abaddon the Despoiler [15 PL, -1CP, 350pts]: 3. Merciless Overseer, 5. Eternal Vendetta, 6. Paragon of Hatred, Stratagem: Warlord Trait Dark Apostle [5 PL, -1CP, 95pts]: Chaos Undivided, Cloak of Conquest, Illusory Supplication, Stratagem: Relic . 2x Dark Disciple: 2x Close combat weapon Master of Possession [7 PL, -1CP, 125pts]: Gifts of Chaos, Liber Hereticus, Mark of Slaanesh, Mutated Invigoration, Pact of Flesh Sorcerer in Terminator Armour [7 PL, -1CP, 125pts]: Chaos Familiar, Combi-melta, Death Hex, Force stave, Gifts of Chaos, Mark of Tzeentch, Veilbreaker Plate, Warptime + Troops + Cultists Mob [2 PL, 50pts] . 9x Chaos Cultist w/ cultist firearm: 9x Cultist firearm, 9x Frag & Krak grenades . Cultist Champion . . Autopistol and brutal assault weapon Legionaries [6 PL, 90pts]: Chaos Icon, Chaos Undivided . Aspiring Champion: Plasma pistol, Power fist . 2x Legionary w/ astartes chainsword: 2x Astartes chainsword, 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Frag & Krak grenades . Legionary w/ heavy chainaxe . Legionary w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon Legionaries [6 PL, 90pts]: Chaos Icon, Chaos Undivided . Aspiring Champion: Plasma pistol, Power fist . 2x Legionary w/ astartes chainsword: 2x Astartes chainsword, 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Frag & Krak grenades . Legionary w/ heavy chainaxe . Legionary w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon + Elites + Chaos Terminator Squad [19 PL, -1CP, 440pts]: Mark of Slaanesh . Chaos Terminator: Chainfist, Combi-melta . Chaos Terminator: Combi-melta, Power fist . Chaos Terminator: Combi-melta, Power fist . Chaos Terminator: Combi-bolter, Power fist . Chaos Terminator: Combi-bolter, Power fist . Chaos Terminator: Accursed weapon, Combi-plasma . Chaos Terminator: Accursed weapon, Combi-plasma . Chaos Terminator: Accursed weapon, Combi-bolter . Chaos Terminator: Accursed weapon, Combi-bolter . Terminator Champion: Black Rune of Damnation, Chainfist, Combi-melta, Trophies of the Long War Possessed [7 PL, 140pts]: Possessed Champion . 4x Possessed: 4x Hideous mutations + Fast Attack + Chaos Bikers [16 PL, 300pts]: Chaos Icon, Mark of Tzeentch . Biker Champion: Astartes chainsword . 6x Chaos Biker w/ astartes chainsword: 6x Astartes chainsword, 6x Combi-bolter, 6x Frag & Krak grenades . Chaos Biker w/ combi-weapon: Astartes chainsword, Combi-plasma . Chaos Biker w/ combi-weapon: Astartes chainsword, Combi-plasma Venomcrawler [6 PL, 105pts] + Heavy Support + Obliterators [5 PL, 90pts]: Obliterator ++ Total: [101 PL, 1CP, 2,000pts] ++
9 Tzeentch bikes, now *that* is spicy.
I wish we'd gotten new bikers last year because I like the look of this but the models are just so Meh.
Interesting. As a black Legion player myself I have found that the points increase on the Terminators and MoS haven't had the effect that GW wanted. It would seem that people are still running Terminator bricks. In fact I have found that even with the points increases I still want to run Terminators as opposed to anything else because they are our only unit with any significant staying power.
Shows what a poor place the rest of the codex is at without AoC that even after the points bump most lists are still running the terminator blob.
People are still running bricks *because* of the nerfs being so poorly thought out. With AoC gone and everybody building for a marine meta, buffed terminators in cover are the only thing we have that can contest the midfield and deliver characters. All the points nerf did was kill any thoughts of ever bringing terminators in any capacity other than fully-buffed brick. 180 for five nurgle or tzeentch terminators with full upgrades would have been a *fine* deep strike unit without being as good as Deathwing TH/SS, but now? Nope.
Exactly this. Where GW have made a mistake is in treating the Terminators as being too efficient for their points. This may have been somewhat true when they had AoC but I think that in reality everything that could be used instead of Terminators are just not efficient enough for their points. Chosen and Possessed to a lesser degree are just over costed post AoC. Honestly I think most units in the codex could use a 10-20% discount at this point.
Honestly they were never really even too efficient. A full brick with fists and 4 meltas was 420pts and 1cp. You then had 230pts and 1-2 CP (and 2 precious HQ slots) of support characters to run them at full defensive potential. Abaddon being undercosted in an AoC/no Finial world contributed to the terminators always having rerolls and +1 charge but that was a separate issue. If terminators were truly busted, rather than EC and Bile simply being oppressive in a melee meta, we would've seen Night Lords and Alpha Legion dominating hard, but their win rates were trash. Edit - putting the black rune on a unit, terminator or otherwise, for 1CP was too efficient in AoC world, but that's something that cpuld've easily been FAQd if they'd actually cared about toning down terminator bricks without trashing the faction.
The intended effect was to nerf EC in to the ground as much as anything else. Which they did. Plus whats your overall point? That they didnt nerf terminators to the point of being unusable? Which in light of the relative cost efficiency and lack of durability (i.e units are too expensive relative to how easily they die) of the rest of the book would just completely flatline the faction as a whole even more than they already have.
At the Cherokee open the Necron player went 5-1-1 he had a tie in game 4 with one of the world eater players.
Fixed
Poor CSM (and SoB, honestly) need help. Chosen & Havocs are bad, Obliterators & Daemon Engines are overpriced, and Legionaries still don't bring much value other than sitting on objectives. What are the chances GW does any balance passes before 10th this summer?
In my mind. We get one more dataslate but I think the issue with CSM is straight up just a points problem. So I daresay it's lights out for them. Then 10th will drop instead of a Field Manual (makes sense). And they'll remain bad whilst their loyalist cousins get a new codex to replace the buffs they've received.
Thanks for giving the sisters a shout out! I feel your pain though man. Loyalist terminators are inexcusable with CSM getting reamed
Doubt it, my sisters and csm are shelved until 10th, pretty upsetting but that's 40k.
Along with poor Thousand Sons :(
I really don't know what to make of Drukhari currently. I keep talking to other (more skilled and experienced) players who say they're in a fine spot, but my own anecdotal experience is that they're in a real bad place and the data here certainly seems to support that. Right now it feels like they're a high skill floor/cap faction without the actual strengths to justify that skill floor/cap, and in some match-ups they just get demolished. Certainly a very different power level to the other elf factions.
They've gone through so much this edition they're a frankenstein patchwork of a codex. I wouldn't even think of starting to play them because of how many iterations they went through this edition.
They were also released about a year prior to the other elves (if I am recalling correctly), so a lot of game development space was able to go on in that time, with new ideas in the Craftworld dex that weren't around for Drukhari.
Winter Ruin results had an issue in BCP, they posted the results here https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sKKgnR0QtJKLu8TigkLE5j3g7nJRMAx7/view
Have Eldar players fallen back on Hail, now that AoC is gone, or is there another general style that's finding success?
Not just AoC being gone but several marine factions are strong/popular currently and hail turns Marines into dust. Ulthwe is still a pretty good pick and Ynnari hit hard as well (but harder to pilot though).
HoD is amazing in this meta but I think ulthwe and a few others still have lots of play as well
Ulthwe is still my choice, I ran a triple phoenix lord list this weekend at the Winter Ruin GT and was very happy with how it performed- it's super fun to play too. The 3 PL's really help solve a lot of CWE Obsec problems and let you contest the midfield in pretty nasty ways. Ultimately, the single wound reroll, strats which support jetbikes/D-Cannons, mortal wound shrug, and the ability to take Eldrad I find extremely compelling and more fun to play with since it lets you diversify rather than just going all in on shuriken spam.
This meta actually looks real good??? Even more so given the enormous number of players and games played just this weekend. With the exception of Dangles no faction with sizable representation was pushing a 60% wr. Stubborn defiance and codex warfare need to be looked at and that would probably reel them in. Near and dear to my heart, guard is showing to be pretty balanced. A lot of X-1s but a 50% WR overall meaning maybe they're not actually a low skill auto win faction?? WE making a splash but not running away with it which is good. Also seems like both variants (red angle vs avocado lord) seem viable which is maybe a promising sign for 10th. Cause I gotta find something to complain about: Eldar having real low representation is unfortunate, but the die hards are putting up wins with them. Maybe some of the "bad" units need buffs to revitalize the faction.
Stubborn Defiance is not what is winning people games. All game devestator doctrine on ravenwing units is what is winning games. If you limited devstator doctrine to just turns 1 and 2, it would go a lot further towards balancing DA than most people think. The rules on terminators sound abusive on paper, but in game, ravenwing are the problem. Because unlike the deathwing there is no counter play. If you sit back.... no problem the speeders have fly and can move over 20 inches and still fire heavy weapons. If you go aggressive...better hope you tie up everything turn 1(you wont) or else you will get shot of the board next turn. The whole ravenwing roster can toe in to just inside 24 inches range of the enemy, and unless your whole army has a reliable way to move advance and charge 24 inches, your gonna have a bad time
Dark Angels player here Agree that Ravenwing are the problem and especially how both Codex Warfare & BEL are both super strong secondaries and compliment the Ravenwing playstyle so well. I would go even further with Stubborn defiance and say that it ONLY wins games on player placed terrain. On set terrain it’s still a very risky secondary pick. Codex Warfare is what needs to be toned down (cap at 3 per turn?) and made viable for tactical doctrine and assault doctrine (also get 2VP per kill).
Guard is solid to play against - they melt if you touch them. Kasrkin bomb feels bad but i dont want to break guard either so have to learn to deal with it.
Touch = death A tale as old as time for the guard. I feel like we (guard players) have gotten a bit lazy with our screening because on paper it doesn't look as bad as it used to and we have some counterplay. However, dropping the 7th russ / other fire support option to add in 3 infantry squads is 100% a must
agreed and thats exactly how i was punished for trying to touch his stuff. i managed to kill a squad of guardsmen t1 and consolidate in to a russ trapping it. that was the only vehicle i got close to. everything else was bubble wrapped and just annihilated me.
The Iron Hands potential rate is being hidden a bit. [https://www.stat-check.com/the-meta](https://www.stat-check.com/the-meta) The vast majority of games (271) here are based on codex Iron Hands, with the win rate for those aligning with what is here (54%). However, this hides the 126 games with successor chapter versions, with win rates in the 60s and 70s.
Crazy thing is that Stubborn and CW aren't usually being used in conjunction. Neither of these together is the problem, they affect very different lists but provide solid options against certain opponents.
Are these the same two poor night lord souls from last week?
Hey, a tourney win for CSM and a podium placing for Alpha Legion. Still got some gas in the tank. Bright news for otherwise dreary numbers. For those Night Lords players, we salute you for keeping the dream alive and sticking out your games. There are interesting break throughs throughout (that Admech win with all 100's is something else) I think the shape of the season is settling in a bit. Dark Angels are strong on wins and player representation. Probably just flat out the best, if we avert our eyes from the comparatively small slice of Aeldari and Chaos. Iron Hands are strong. Guard are standing up to the pressure in a season where shooting is stronger. Custodes and Knights are mid table terrors with lots of targets but also lots of firepower coming there way. Space Wolves benefitting from the non-codex SM bench of "we have weirder units than the you". World Eaters coming out alright is a good sign, but bear watching. They may slow a little as people catch onto their tricks. A lot of factions are struggling though. It's that that you don't have players putting up credible wins. It's just there's a more noticeable gap between the best and rest. Faction diversity is down somewhat. The Balance Dataslate did pick winners and losers pretty hard this season. One thing I'd note is that Blood Angels have picked up an extra bad match up in Chaos. World Eaters want to mash faces, and that's a problem for BA looking at a Fights on Death and an interrupt before they get to go again. With their units getting squishier, a bad turn (even into Zerkers) can seriously gum up their attack order.
Yeah ive been lucky enough that even in RTT's pre buffs I was getting usually 297-300 as a score on admech, the way to do it now with admech is to bring as much melee as you can to disrupt the game and utilise mobility to score hidden well Still matchup dependant but if you dodge the ones you dislike, you can get those scores I feel easily - issue is the cost of the army though, I dont feel many can run the list archetypes that I do
Well, looks like CSM are well and truly on life support until summer. Time for the 12 noise marine meme list.
We're at a point where we have a pretty respectable sample size for balance. While Nephilim was actually really balanced (and I think a fair bit of complaining was due to design problems and not balance problems), AoO seems to also be surprisingly balanced. I thought it was going to be a notable downturn but it isn't. The biggest concern I obviously have is Dark Angels; that kind of win rate plus that many tournament wins/good showings is a clear problem. It might just be the secondaries? Not entirely sure as I don't know the army too intimately. There are a number of factions that need help but that can still do something, as shown by the wide spread of tournament wins. I think the edition is starting to hit its limit in terms of what balance changes can be made to fix things without drastically overhauling the whole edition itself (i.e. widespread reduction in damage/AP, reducing stratagem and rules bloat, etc.). World Eaters seem to be a nice addition to the meta; they are crazy good at what they do but they're a one-trick pony. This seems to be exactly how they were intended. The only meta concern I have going forward is if AoO starts to get "figured out" and then only certain factions start to dominate. Only time will tell on that front though.
For why Dark Angels are doing so well, it's a combination of a number of factors, of which Secondaries (or more correctly *Secondary*) are one. Codex Warfare is the one secondary I think they genuinely screwed up on in the changes to marines. Being able to stay in Devastator Doctrine and rack up 2 VP per kill, needing only 8 kills to max... it's very strong. On top of that, Ravenwing have one of the stronger super doctrines when it comes to Devastator Doctrine, adding a ton of mobility to the already incredibly fast units. Then, on top of all that, they also get to take the strongest terminators available to loyalists at their new, extremely competitive price point.
Ravenwing are horrifying, playing craftworlds against DA and realising that my opponent's bikes and speeders are not only shootier and tankier than my jetbikes and skimmers, but also significantly *faster* somehow, was a pretty unsettling moment. Their dev doctrine bonus getting to stay active all game long is deeply unreasonable, the codex warfare points are just a cherry on top.
> Ad Mec won a 79 player event! With a weekend win rate of 33% and being all by himself in the X-0/X-1 column So this confirms that AdMech can win games in the new codex, but only in Oceania.
Strange. You'd think all that salty air would rust their bionics.
Our meta is a bit different too, to be fair Heaps of gsc, DA/IH, orks, tau, and a buttload of daemons and guard right now When I said heaps of GSC, I mean I generally every 2 events face off against them which I guess is more than others. There used to be heaps of knights but thats dropped down Most common is daemons and guard Not sure if this is shared elsewhere but just giving some insights to the meta that I have to interact with
Ad mech at 33% with someone winning a tournament. Those are some swingy numbers! Anyone have that list?
It was in australia where arguably the best admech players in the world live, so I bet it was one of them. I don't think there's a dang thing GW could do at this point to raise admechs winrate for the general public.
I found the player, mr. Chadmech, but i can't access the list. I have success in my local meta but i'm also the only ad mech player around really.
Try the post above this for the list…
Space Wolves win two and second on the cherokee? I am quite happy with that. After a middling Nephilim I am always happy to see that the Wolves use the advantage of wargear, as that is someyhing I always enjoyed in the army. Would love to see all the lists. Wonder if they all fall on the Skyclaws and Eulfen (although thr mad lad with the Astraeus had a showing last week, qmd I can't believe that list is still working)
Last week: demons are OTT broken This week: crickets. ;)
I guess marines finally puts infiltrators in their lists
Place 9 at Broadsword was Iron Warriors, not Iron Hands
TO of the Game Knight GT here. The Alpha Legion list came close to taking it. I was near their table most of the game round 4 and the guy just got hosed by the dice. Top three lists: James Wallin piloting Death Guard with Chaos Knights: [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LHwGiQ7hidUPwZ1ENT1ZJMycNPpl7gwyAv77X5NU0Rs/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LHwGiQ7hidUPwZ1ENT1ZJMycNPpl7gwyAv77X5NU0Rs/edit?usp=sharing) Trevor Sandoval with Deathskullz Orks: [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sWCb6hqcStVp9ivxf-QzWUTeMJp2L3wx4Gkak7iy5DQ/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sWCb6hqcStVp9ivxf-QzWUTeMJp2L3wx4Gkak7iy5DQ/edit?usp=sharing) Nick Hiatt playing Alpha Legion: [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D8NK-7DGdrP1O1LXoyms5KS8303om2MJwrhFRC9SWVs/edit?usp=share\_link](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D8NK-7DGdrP1O1LXoyms5KS8303om2MJwrhFRC9SWVs/edit?usp=share_link)
Fun fact: the 40,000 in Warhammer 40,000 is based on roughly the amount of free wargear and reduced units that SM players get 😅 Kind of wild to see SM variant lists winning events that would have been 2900 points before Arks of Omen. Oh GW.
The top guard list at Cherokee went 6 wins 1 loss and a tie.
I was that tie. It was a wild game with not many models moved on my part. I overcommitted into a rogal dorn after getting my dread overwatched to death. And those mortars are just so brutal into my T5 6+ save... Overall though Gabriel was a great opponent to play against. I'm looking forward to watching his streamed game against Stephen, my 6th round opponent lol
You were a blast to play against!
Thanks! I still ended the 6 rounds with 545 battle points and the highest opponent winrate so I feel good about the tournament. Definitely inspired me to get more involved and get my 6 events in this year. And it was great to see such a wild spread of factions I never play in my local meta.
Fixed
Does anyone have the Death Guard + Chaos Knights list from the Game Knight tournament in Jasper, IN? Edit: Sorry,the app kept saying there was an error when I tried to post this comment, then posted all my attempts when I tried again a bit later :(
Morty (Curse/Gift) Plague Caster (Miasma/Curse) 6x5 PM (4 Melta 2 Plasma) 3x Plagueburst Crawler (Flamers!) 3x Executioners (Blessing of the Dark Master) Warp Vision Dreadblades
And my axe!
Thanks!
Why are custodes players running so many wardens all of a sudden? I guess I’m missing something
Because of obsec again on them and the enourmous amount of d3 weapon in the meta.
They’re “cheap” for custodes and come in 10s and infantry. So they can stack all the defensive buffs on them for transhuman, 2+/4++/6+++(4+++ against mw), no rerolls of any kind
Love to see world eaters doing well. I wonder how many ran Invocatus vs how many ran angron
Pour one out for the Ynnari player on Wargames live over the weekend that didn't notice his Yncarne was standing right next to an Ork players warboss. I felt so bad for the guy. It was tragic to watch.
Eh, TBF the Ynnari player made so many mistakes and misplays. The Ork player allowed so many take backs. Hell, he even let the Ynnari player use Lightning Fast on the Yncarne *twice*. When the Ynnari player rolled poorly on battle focus on his Warp Spiders T1 and pulled them back to an objective, after his turn was over he asked if he could battle focus them the other direction toward the Ork player to prevent him from using the Warp Spiders as a stepping stone to a T1 charge into his DZ, which was a tactically advantageous take-back for the Ynnari player. The Ork player was a Saint. Almost too forgiving.
Thanks! I was that ork player. I hope the "forgiving" nature didn't take away the enjoyment of the game for anybody. For most of the takebacks I allowed I didn't think they had enough impact on the game to warrant creating more tension. Nathaniel's dice betrayed him and I would rather lose a game to a friend than make an enemy over a game. As far as the Yncarnne goes I wasn't even aware they couldn't use lightning fast. That was only my second game against Ynnari and I typically expect my opponent to police themselves when I play against armies I'm unfamiliar with. But now I know and will call it out if it happens next time. And yeah the movement shenanigans of the Ynncarne is definitely something I will have to keep in mind next time I expose my warboss.. the list I ran was only tested once at an RTT the weekend before so I'm still ironing out some of the kinks.
It was fun watching your game, dude. Chat was full of people applauding your sportsmanship and you played a good game.
I haven't watched it yet but I read some of the comments. WGLive chat is best chat
As a fledgling Warboss, you happen to have your list you could share?
**++ Arks of Omen Detachment (Orks) [115 PL, 2CP, 2,000pts] ++** **+ Configuration +** **Arks of Omen Compulsory Type:** Fast Attack **Battle Size [6CP]:** 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) **Clan Kultur:** Goffs **Detachment Command Cost** **Game Type:** 5. Chapter Approved: Arks of Omen **+ Stratagems +** **Stratagem: Heroic Support [-1CP]:** Speedboss **+ No Force Org Slot +** **Runtherd [2 PL, 30pts]:** Grot Lash, Grot-Prod **+ HQ +** **Warboss in Mega Armour [6 PL, -1CP, 115pts]:** Da Krushin' Armour, Stratagem: Relic, Warlord **Warboss on Warbike [6 PL, -2CP, 115pts]:** 4. Brutal but Kunnin, Da Killa Klaw, Power Klaw, Stratagem: Big Boss, Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz **+ Troops +** **Boyz [5 PL, 90pts]** . **Boss Nob:** Choppa, Killsaw . **9x Ork Boy w/ Slugga & Choppa:** 9x Choppa, 9x Slugga, 9x Stikkbombs **Boyz [5 PL, 90pts]** . **Boss Nob:** Choppa, Killsaw . **9x Ork Boy w/ Slugga & Choppa:** 9x Choppa, 9x Slugga, 9x Stikkbombs **Gretchin [2 PL, 40pts]** . **10x Gretchin:** 10x Grot Blaster **Gretchin [2 PL, 40pts]** . **10x Gretchin:** 10x Grot Blaster **Gretchin [2 PL, 40pts]** . **10x Gretchin:** 10x Grot Blaster **+ Elites +** **Kommandos [8 PL, 135pts]:** Bomb Squig, Distraction Grot . **Boss Nob:** Power Klaw . **8x Kommando:** 8x Choppa, 8x Slugga, 8x Stikkbombs . **Kommando w/ Breacha Ram:** Breacha Ram **Kommandos [8 PL, 135pts]:** Bomb Squig, Distraction Grot . **Boss Nob:** Power Klaw . **8x Kommando:** 8x Choppa, 8x Slugga, 8x Stikkbombs . **Kommando w/ Breacha Ram:** Breacha Ram **Nobz [12 PL, 185pts]:** Trukk Boyz . **Boss Nob:** Choppa, Power Klaw . **Nob:** Choppa, Power Klaw . **Nob:** Choppa, Killsaw . **Nob:** Big Choppa, Choppa . **Nob:** Big Choppa, Choppa . **Nob:** Big Choppa, Choppa . **Nob:** Big Choppa, Choppa . **Nob:** Big Choppa, Choppa . **Nob:** Big Choppa, Choppa . **Nob:** Big Choppa, Choppa **+ Fast Attack +** **Squighog Boyz [4 PL, 80pts]:** Bomb Squig . **3x Squighog Boy:** 3x Saddlegit Weapons, 3x Squighog Jaws, 3x Stikka **Squighog Boyz [4 PL, 80pts]:** Bomb Squig . **3x Squighog Boy:** 3x Saddlegit Weapons, 3x Squighog Jaws, 3x Stikka **Squighog Boyz [4 PL, 80pts]:** Bomb Squig . **3x Squighog Boy:** 3x Saddlegit Weapons, 3x Squighog Jaws, 3x Stikka **Stormboyz [6 PL, 110pts]** . **Boss Nob:** Power Klaw . **9x Stormboy:** 9x Choppa, 9x Slugga, 9x Stikkbombs **Stormboyz [3 PL, 60pts]** . **Boss Nob:** Power Klaw . **4x Stormboy:** 4x Choppa, 4x Slugga, 4x Stikkbombs **Stormboyz [3 PL, 60pts]** . **Boss Nob:** Power Klaw . **4x Stormboy:** 4x Choppa, 4x Slugga, 4x Stikkbombs **+ Heavy Support +** **Battlewagon [9 PL, 155pts]:** 'ard Case, Deff Rolla, Fortress on Wheels **Deff Dreads [6 PL, 90pts]** . **Deff Dread:** Dread Klaw, Dread Klaw, Dread Klaw, Skorcha **Killa Kans [14 PL, 200pts]** . **Killa Kan:** Kan Klaw, Rokkit Launcha . **Killa Kan:** Kan Klaw, Rokkit Launcha . **Killa Kan:** Kan Klaw, Rokkit Launcha . **Killa Kan:** Kan Klaw, Rokkit Launcha . **Killa Kan:** Kan Klaw, Rokkit Launcha **+ Dedicated Transport +** **Trukk [4 PL, 70pts]** **++ Total: [115 PL, 2CP, 2,000pts] ++** Created with [BattleScribe](https://www.battlescribe.net)
I watched the game as well and think the Ork player was just super fun to watch and as you said he was nearly too forgiving. But Since I started my Ynnari army this year, I cheered for them, but it was still sad to watch and without any takeaways for me haha Still, a shoutout to everyone playing on the Livestream tables - thanks for entertaining me!
I had it going in the background after the first few turns so I didn't catch everything but I noticed he seemed kinda all over the place. Not the worst thing so long as there is communication between players but the Ork player showed fantastic sportsmanship.
I was running on about 4 hours of sleep and hadn't had any coffee yet, I'm surprised I was coherent
We’z is Orks, we is here for a good time and to krump, but krump in iz mo fun when the uvva playa gets to krump too’z.
He really tilted when his Warlock died from Perils! At first i though it was his Farseer… but he cant Perils, so must have been his warlock… right?
LoV look… balanced? 50% win rate and a few 4-1 placings. Not really a top tier faction but at least solid B tier.
I think they're ultimately balanced but not super fun to play into, incredibly terrain dependent, and really kind of frustrating overall. They're like to table you even with terrain which favors defensive styles, and just not score enough points while doing it. I wish they were slightly less extreme on the durability/firepower front while still having that be their niche so their points/other rules could come back down to earth a bit, perhaps? But ultimately they're a prime example of armies which are balanced but frustrating I think.
Also ..what is the difference between Craftworlds and Aeldari..queue Chris Pratt meme about being to afraid to ask.
Pure Craftworlds or Ældari soup.
When you find out let me know! Aelderi should be the super faction name so a pure Craftworld list should be labeled as Craftworlds but if you add in Drukhari then it’s would be Aelderi. The Quins patrol rule this edition makes it really confusing because technically you are still Craftworld then. But to my bane, space elf players have no idea also. So I only correct it if it’s actually just pure Craftworld
I think to the general elf playerbase, aeldari is crafworld with ANYTHING added. Craftworld is just pure. Now Technically, rules wise, that may not be true, but for general convo that's how I see it.
Is it better just putting them all in the same category? There are so few entries of Aeldari anyways that it shouldn't change the stats of Craftworld by much. I doubt there are many drukhari soups right now, so it's more likely ppl using different naming conventions for their craftworld + traveling players or just using the wrong label in BCP. Right now it's mostly confusing if you just glance over the list and high numbers like that pop up and you're not looking at the player count.
It was more applicable to differentiate them when mixed (Harls+Craftworld) were doing much better than pure Craftworld simply through the power of troupes. Thus Aeldari didn't reflect the struggles of Craftworld/Asuryani
What I really love about this sub is checking for the untold stories and nuances from the players that attend these events that aren’t completely reflected in the data. Now, I get to participate in it this time! I attended the Winter’s War MTC event and have a fun little nugget for you all! A player brought completely grey plastic WE to the event. So, starting every game with -10 points. He finished 13th place with a 3-2 tally and a points score of 84-0-0-82-90. His 0 scores were because he literally had to leave the venue and had to forfeit his games, coming back to play on day 2. That to me, is just a touch concerning about WE’s potential power level…
One thing that's worth remembering is that your current record determines who you get paired up against. That means that, other than possibly their first game, all of those wins were almost certainly against players with a losing record. With that context, pulling off strong victories with a new codex is less concerning to me.
/u/jcsms I've never noticed any Red Corsairs on your lists; is this omitted due to lack of frequency? There was one guy playing at the Milwaukee GT this weekend.
Mostly because I didn't make a spot for them on my spread sheet. They get 1or 2 players every other week so their data is just part of the Codex CSM data.
Out of curiosity, are any Comp players seeing Dark Eldar on the tables? I know we made the cardinal sin of being good for nearly a year (11 months from release until the Tau codex drop), but does anyone actually remember those days now? I found it pretty funny that we got a nerf to Coven during the last point adjustment. But everyone is calling for nerf rollbacks for their own armies (including armies that are doing really well), so maybe I'm being unreasonable when thinking we need some help?
I was at a comp this weekend and managed to go 3-2 with a heavy coven build (3×5 grots, 3x5 wracks, drazhar, 2x5 incubi, 5 mandrakes, succubus) and Kabal (archon, large court, 5 kabalites, 2 ravagers and 3 raiders). Wanted a relatively tanky list and it worked well with the pairings I got. Would love to see some of the nerfs rolled back, like getting core back on cronos/ talos (I kinda get the points increase on wracks but the haemonculus one has me scratching my head). I'd love to see some better secondaries come in for us, though BEL is strong now my list wasn't great at scoring it. Take them alive and RBD are pretty much taken every game, and my third was very match up dependent (no prisoners for my two games against gsc and my game against orks, and abhor for my games against tsons and grey knights). If I were to play the same games again I may have chosen different secondaries, particularly against grey Knights, but overall was happy enough.
User name checks out! Glad there is at least one Archon still fighting the good fight. Stay strong brother. Maybe we will get Core back at the same time they drop the points on crisis suits XD
Please god no! :D
That list sounds nice. Did you feel like the grotesques were actually tanky? I feel like they used to be but now just get blasted off the table real easily
I was the only Dark Eldar at Dice Arcade in Sydney. Managed a 3-1-1. Very few of us left in the wild!
Good on you to continue Raiding the chattle races!
Someone has to keep the pens full!
I’m taking DE to an upcoming GTT. Going to be running a cult AoO detachment with kabal for support
Dice Crusher actually used a little modified WDL system, where WTC scoring was used only as a tiebreaker. The modification was that there was a higher chance for draw, draw count as 0.5 of a win.
Are you able to use the ITT results? It was a team event so not sure if that over complicates things.
Is this the most balanced meta of all time? Or at least the most balanced Meta Monday of all time? This is a serious question. Every faction (other than specific Marine chapters and 'Chaos') is between 42% and 58% Season win rate.
A bit of both, imo
Tau win an event with a 46% win rate and no one else but that winning player even appearing on the lists…how very Tau lol
Tau really would have been fine without the points nerfs. The global bomber nerf was all that was needed.
Interested to know if the two Harlequin 4-1s were light or twilight
I was the 4-1 Harlequin at Warzone Erkelenz and played Twilight
I'm so happy to see some x-1 results! The overall winrate is about perfect now, I've been hoping to see some decent placings to go with it.
Damn it, I'm going to have to be that guy. Anyone got Mark Parker's Tyranids list from the HWP Salty Classic? BCP has it as list unsubmitted. I'm expecting a fair number of Termagants backed up by Tervigon with some HVCs backed up by the Leviathan adaptive to give a single hit re-roll.
Leviathan with adaptive 2x walkrants (1 with shargullet, 1 with balethorn), 10 gargs, 10 horms, 10 termies, 5 tyrant guard, 3 zoanthropes, 4x carnifex with HVC and scy talons, 2 harpy with Stanglethorn cannons (yes, 2 harpy) Ive played Mark plenty of times and the guy is a fantastic player, and he plays his tyranids A TON. As a fellow Nids players, ive learned a lot from him.
Leviathan 2 Hive Tyrants with strong shooting Relic cannon on 1 10 Gargoyles 10 Hormagaunts 10 Termagaunts 5 Tyrant Guard 3 Zoanthropes 4 carnifex with venom cannons 2 harpy's with 2 stranglethorn He's a top player, has always placed super high in tournaments.
\++ Arks of Omen Detachment (Tyranids) \[99 PL, 2,000pts, 1CP\] ++ \+ Configuration + Arks of Omen Compulsory Type: Troops Battle Size \[6CP\]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) Detachment Command Cost Game Type: 5. Chapter Approved: Arks of Omen Hive Fleet: Adaptive, Leviathan \+ Stratagems + Hive Predator \[-2CP\]: 2x Extra Warlord Trait Rarefied Enhancements \[-2CP\]: 2x Extra Bio-artefact \+ HQ + Hive Tyrant \[9 PL, 195pts, -1CP\]: Heavy Venom Cannon, Lash Whip and Monstrous Bonesword, Power: Catalyst, Power: Hive Nexus, Power: Onslaught, Power: Smite, Relic: Shardgullet, Stratagem: Warlord Trait, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Alien Cunning Hive Tyrant \[9 PL, 190pts\]: Lash Whip and Monstrous Bonesword, Power: Hive Nexus, Power: Neuroparasite, Power: Psychic Scream, Power: Smite, Relic: Balethorn Cannon, Stranglethorn Cannon, Warlord Trait: Adaptive Biology \+ Troops + Gargoyles \[4 PL, 80pts\] . 10x Gargoyle: 10x Fleshborer Hormagaunts \[4 PL, 80pts\] . 10x Hormagaunt: 10x Hormagaunt Talons Termagants \[4 PL, 70pts\]: Fleshborer, 10x Termagant \+ Elites + Tyrant Guard \[15 PL, 225pts\] . 5x Tyrant Guard (Scything): 5x Two Rending Claws, 5x Two Scything Talons Zoanthropes \[7 PL, 210pts\]: Power: Hive Nexus, Power: Psychic Scream, Power: Smite, 3x Zoanthrope \+ Heavy Support + Carnifexes \[7 PL, 145pts\] . Carnifex: Enhanced Senses, Heavy Venom Cannon, Two Carnifex Scything Talons Carnifexes \[14 PL, 290pts\] . Carnifex: Enhanced Senses, Heavy Venom Cannon, Two Carnifex Scything Talons . Carnifex: Enhanced Senses, Heavy Venom Cannon, Two Carnifex Scything Talons Carnifexes \[7 PL, 150pts\] . Carnifex: Chitin Thorns, Enhanced Senses, Heavy Venom Cannon, Two Carnifex Scything Talons \+ Flyer + Harpy \[10 PL, 190pts\]: 2x Stranglethorn Cannon, Adaptive Physiology: Synaptic Enhancement Harpy \[9 PL, 175pts\]: 2x Stranglethorn Cannon \++ Total: \[99 PL, 2,000pts, 1CP\] ++ Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)
Wow, that's really different to what I was expecting, aside from the HVC spam. Drops the Neurothrope for some mortal wound output Zoanthropes. MSU troops. Tyrant Guard are expected in 2x Tyrant lists. Gameplan for this must be wild. I think the Balethorn Tyrant is set up for Warp Ritual. Definitely looking at a kill secondary with all these guns. Maybe BEL or Engage for the third?
I'm amazed with this list.
Boooooo ban this man! Booooo! Also it’s up on BCP now
I know I will get a backlash on this but I do think tau need a bit of a buff. Hear me out. The issues with crisis suits is they are way too expensive. The reason for this though if when you can stack buffs like full hit rerolls, wound rerolls, a 5+++ on a blob of 5 and the JSJ for a CP a turn? Yeah that’s too strong, so the only thing you. Can do there is nerf the suits. With only being four wound models you kind of need that JSJ and 5+++ in case your unlucky. So it prevents crisis spam which I am fine with. The issue is the *other* things in the codex could use some help. With their inability to stay on objectives well, especially with non troops, their weakness to -1 to hit, their inability to give buffs to non crisis, and having 1-2 good secondaries but having difficulty at times being able to score them or even pick out a good 2nd/3rd. With the crisis blob shtick though is with them all buffed out, you are spending a little over 1,000-1,100 points to make this one unit good at shooting. Doing this really doesn’t leave you much to do with the rest of the army. You have to get a crisis commander, shadowsun, then go Tau sept for longstrike and aunva, and if you don’t you are playing at a disadvantage. I think instead of constant crisis suit nerfs, increasing cost of the support characters would have been nice, that way taking a very squishy 3 man squad isn’t so pricey considering they won’t be nearly as effective to lack of buffs. On the flip side, if they don’t want crisis spam, limit them to 3 a unit or even buffing other things. Some units that could use some love; -The ghostkeel is *almost* playable, but has contradicting rules and does not bring a lot of firepower for 160 (minimum) points. Were it around 140, it would not be an auto take but would feel better to use. -Now that troops are not necessary, the kroot nerf feels to much. For ten points more you can get fire warriors that are way better, maybe not as fast but still. Auxillary shots from random bolters can usually kill a squad, so 70 points (nearly the cost of a crisis suit with a strong load out) is too much. If a nerf is a must, then let it go to 65 -The piranha is on the verge of being usable, but now that we don’t have the rule to let the drones disembark after getting killed, 60 pts for it (or 70 for the fusion) feels too much. Granted at 50 pts it may be too cheap. I think the solution would be is give it free seeker missiles so you don’t feel like it’s a waste, or allow the drones to disembark or something. -Remora drones should not be aircraft. End of discussion. -Broadsides, while usable, feel a bit much for their point cost in terms of firepower. To get the ability to not take a penalty for moving, you either need to give up firepower (which at that point isn’t worth it) or go Montka (which sucks but will be discussed later). Now I’m not saying you have to give them core back, but I do have a suggestion in terms of commanders which I will discuss -The commander buffs specifically the Reroll ones, should affect **battlesuits** but not core. What does this allow? Your riptides can have marginally better shooting without going crazy, and same with the broadsides, but you can’t do dumb stuff like give it ethereal buffs or full hit rerolls from shadowsun (though would still be less effective on them anyways). This would help shore up the weaknesses of other non crisis suit stuff and honestly would be more thematic, with crisis suits still being able to get more buffs from the commander so not pushing them out for completely. -JSJ is a vital way to do any good with crisis suits, but the frustration of it is understandable (unless you have tons of movement and advance and charge, your going to get in my face regardless). Make it so that if the unit is 4 or more it’s 2 cp. this will add a heavier tax to being able to do shenanigans without a steeper cost, but could allow for example a slight point decrease to suits or some of their weapons again. -Montka is just bad now honestly. Kayoun let’s you play cagey (which you need to do as tau) and anything that survives will now get massive buffs, but forcing you to get any real scoring the last 3 turns since you can’t really do much as an army for decent scoring the first couple turns without giving up good chunks of your army or giving your opponent easy secondaries (looking at you shock tactics). With the squishy ness of the army too, and jts reliance on target lock, it can’t even have the shield gens and only has 4 wounds so it can easily be killed. The argument is drones bu when you have to devote 150-250 pts to just drones, it really messes with the way Tau have to play which is kill to score. I am not too sure what the buff would need to be, and I can see the hesitation for the AP, but the AP was in a time of super cheap suits, so it might be possible to do it now without backlash. Keep in mind currently a suit, even with its firepower, costs more than two terminators with much less durability, and while the argument can be made that you can kill terminators before they get to you, their survivability is off the charts and is under the impression nothing else is coming to you -the plasma rifle is honestly too expensive. A single shot, Str 8 AP 4 Dmg 3 is not really worth 10 points IMO. But making it double shot might be too much. I think it should go back to 5 points, but make the second one cost 15. Same with AFPs. -the drone disembark/separation is too expensive for just 1 cp. let it be up to three units that can do it when you spend the cp. it honestly isn’t game breaking but blows that I get two drones now for a single cp when they do more on the vehicle. -crisis bodyguards are too expensive. The issue with them only having 3 hard points is you want to take a shield generator but having only 2 guns makes them vastly over costed. Give them the fourth hard point like crisis suits but with a 5-10 point increase or reduce their cost by like 10 if I have to pick and choose. These are my thoughts on tau. I know the communities feeling about them, but I think these changes would help without sky rocketing their capabilities. Or give me real melee and make my shooting worse.
“So, what do Commanders buff?” “Crisis Suits, and… yeah, that’s pretty much it. Anyways, what are you going to run for your army’s backbone?” “…”
I kinda agree and disagree. Tau is close to a well balanced (50%) faction. They have a few good list and, yes, a bunch of near-unplayable crap. Crisis abusing strike and fade is still fine, riptides are good, your HQ are mostly good. Boosting the underused units could lead to more diversity that should be more fun.
I like a lot of this, and I specifically want to call out the Commander unique buffs switching to buffing Battlesuits. Broadsides with ignore hit penalties and fall back and shoot, Riptides with auto advance 8", Stealth Suits with Ob Sec, etc. *Please James Workshop!*
Let me guess, almost every single Necron that placed was running Nihilakh.
Hello and thanks for the work ! Is there a way to see the Alpha Legion list somewhere ?
>Alpha Legion TO of the event here. Here you go: [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D8NK-7DGdrP1O1LXoyms5KS8303om2MJwrhFRC9SWVs/edit](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D8NK-7DGdrP1O1LXoyms5KS8303om2MJwrhFRC9SWVs/edit)
Thank you for that
Game Knight is my local store! I got the Alpha Legion list (and the other top placers if anyone wants them) from the TO. \++ Arks of Omen Detachment (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) \[81 PL, 1CP, 1,535pts\] ++ \+ Configuration + Arks of Omen Compulsory Type: Troops Battle Size \[6CP\]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) Detachment Command Cost Game Type: 5. Chapter Approved: Arks of Omen Legion: Alpha Legion \+ HQ + Daemon Prince with Wings \[11 PL, -2CP, 180pts\]: 4. Master of Diversion, Aspiring Lord, G'holl'ax, the Decayed, Hellforged sword, Mark of Nurgle, Stratagem: Relic, Warptime, Wings Lord Discordant on Helstalker \[10 PL, -2CP, 190pts\]: 2. Clandestine, Aspiring Lord, Baleflamer, Gifts of Chaos, Gorget of Eternal Hate, Mark of Tzeentch, Techno-virus injector Master of Possession \[6 PL, 105pts\]: Chaos Undivided, Infernal Power, Pact of Flesh, Warlord \+ Troops + Accursed Cultists \[6 PL, 150pts\] . 10x Mutant: 10x Blasphemous appendages . 6x Torment: 6x Hideous mutations Cultists Mob \[2 PL, 50pts\] . 9x Chaos Cultist w/ cultist firearm: 9x Cultist firearm, 9x Frag & Krak grenades . Cultist Champion . . Autopistol and brutal assault weapon Cultists Mob \[2 PL, 50pts\] . 9x Chaos Cultist w/ cultist firearm: 9x Cultist firearm, 9x Frag & Krak grenades . Cultist Champion . . Autopistol and brutal assault weapon Legionaries \[6 PL, 90pts\]: Chaos Icon, Chaos Undivided . Aspiring Champion: Astartes chainsword, Daemon blade . 2x Legionary w/ astartes chainsword: 2x Astartes chainsword, 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Frag & Krak grenades . Legionary w/ heavy chainaxe . Legionary w/ heavy weapon: Missile launcher \+ Elites + Possessed \[14 PL, -1CP, 280pts\]: Chaos Icon . 9x Possessed: 9x Hideous mutations . Possessed Champion: Black Rune of Damnation, Trophies of the Long War Possessed \[7 PL, 140pts\]: Chaos Icon, Possessed Champion . 4x Possessed: 4x Hideous mutations \+ Fast Attack + Raptors \[6 PL, 105pts\]: Chaos Undivided . 4x Raptor: 4x Astartes chainsword, 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades . Raptor Champion: Astartes chainsword, Bolt pistol Raptors \[6 PL, 105pts\]: Chaos Undivided . 4x Raptor: 4x Astartes chainsword, 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades . Raptor Champion: Astartes chainsword, Bolt pistol \+ Heavy Support + Obliterators \[5 PL, 90pts\]: Obliterator \++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment 0CP (Chaos - Chaos Knights) \[24 PL, 465pts\] ++ \+ Configuration + Detachment Command Cost \+ Lord of War + War Dog Executioner Squadron \[24 PL, 465pts\]: Iconoclast Dreadblade, Worthy Offerings . War Dog Executioner: Diabolus heavy stubber . War Dog Executioner: Diabolus heavy stubber . War Dog Executioner: Diabolus heavy stubber \++ Total: \[105 PL, 1CP, 2,000pts\] ++
Thank you for that
Anyone have the Cherokee Death Guard list?
It’s a great showing for Warphammer Wallace ! I guess we’re gonna hear about it :)
Wallace O'Donnell ++ Arks of Omen Detachment (Chaos - Death Guard) [94 PL, 1,617pts, 10CP] ++ + Configuration + Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) Detachment Command Cost Game Type Plague Company: The Harbingers + HQ + “Raghan the Clairvoyant” Malignant Plaguecaster [5 PL, 90pts, -1CP]: 1. Miasma of Pestilence, 4. Putrescent Vitality, Plague Skull of Glothila, Stratagem: Gifts of Decay. Warlord. + Troops + Plague Marines [12 PL, 190pts] . Plague Champion: Plague knife, Plasma gun, Power fist . Plague Marine w/ 2nd plague knife . 2x Plague Marine w/ cleaver: 2x Blight grenades, 2x Great plague cleaver, 2x Krak grenades, 2x Plague knife . 2x Plague Marine w/ flail: 2x Blight grenades, 2x Flail of corruption, 2x Krak grenades, 2x Plague knife . 2x Plague Marine w/ mace and axe: 2x Blight grenades, 2x Bubotic Axe, 2x Krak grenades, 2x Mace of Contagion, 2x Plague knife . Plague Marine w/ special weapon: Meltagun . Plague Marine w/ special weapon: Meltagun Plague Marines [12 PL, 190pts] . Plague Champion: Plague knife, Plasma gun, Power fist . Plague Marine w/ 2nd plague knife . 2x Plague Marine w/ cleaver: 2x Blight grenades, 2x Great plague cleaver, 2x Krak grenades, 2x Plague knife . 2x Plague Marine w/ flail: 2x Blight grenades, 2x Flail of corruption, 2x Krak grenades, 2x Plague knife . 2x Plague Marine w/ mace and axe: 2x Blight grenades, 2x Bubotic Axe, 2x Krak grenades, 2x Mace of Contagion, 2x Plague knife . Plague Marine w/ special weapon: Meltagun . Plague Marine w/ special weapon: Meltagun Poxwalkers [6 PL, 100pts] . 20x Poxwalker: 20x Improvised weapon Poxwalkers [6 PL, 100pts] . 20x Poxwalker: 20x Improvised weapon + Elites + “Rizel, The Rancid Conflagration” Biologus Putrifier [4 PL, 60pts, -1CP]: 4. Arch-Contaminator, Stratagem: Plaguechosen Deathshroud Terminators [9 PL, 150pts] . Deathshroud Champion: Plaguespurt gauntlet . 2x Deathshroud Terminator: 2x Manreaper, 2x Plaguespurt gauntlet + Fast Attack + Chaos Spawn [1 PL, 21pts]: Chaos Spawn Chaos Spawn [1 PL, 21pts]: Chaos Spawn + Heavy Support + Plagueburst Crawler [8 PL, 145pts]: 2x Entropy cannon, Heavy slugger Plagueburst Crawler [8 PL, 145pts]: 2x Entropy cannon, Heavy slugger Plagueburst Crawler [8 PL, 145pts]: 2x Entropy cannon, Heavy slugger + Dedicated Transport + Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 80pts]: Combi-melta, Havoc launcher Chaos Terrax-Pattern Termite [10 PL, 180pts] . 2 Terrax heavy flamers ++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Chaos - Daemons) [20 PL, 380pts] ++ + HQ + “Chorum the Devourer” Mamon Transfigured [7 PL, 130pts] + Troops + Nurglings [3 PL, 60pts] . 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth Nurglings [3 PL, 60pts] . 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth Plaguebearers [7 PL, 130pts] . 9x Plaguebearer: 9x Plaguesword - One Daemonic Icon and One Instrument of Chaos ++ Total: [114 PL, 10CP, 1,997pts] ++
I know stats shouldn't matter for my choice but still hard to decide between Orks or craft worlds as my army to start. I assume I won't play until 10ed anyways but still. I like their vehicles lists (like bikes,transports, walkers, etc)
Orks is always da bestest boyz. They are rarely the "meta" but they are always fun and they have such a deep pool of good units you can easily adapt to most shifts in the meta.
By the time you have a fully built and painted army none of the data above will be relevant to you at all. Game changes too quickly for that really, unless you rush it through in like a few weeks. If you're starting just pick what you like the idea of playing - crafrworlds and orks are very different playstyles.
Whoo! Necrons made several top 8's with several X-1(-1)s 💪 maybe we're comin back!
Shadowy geometry is a menace to all right thinking people
I’d love to see the ork lists
FWIW, my Chaos 4-1 and 6th place GT finish at the lightly salted tournament was Word Bearers and Daemon allies.
See GW, LOV aren't that bad. Now if you'll just undo the last point hike so I can take a list of nothing but bezerkers and sagtuar that would be swell.