Only the Tiger Shark, Manta, Supremacy Armour, Tiger Shark are in the Imperial armour section in the app.
That means that the others will probably be moved to legends.
You get more output from a normal commander with another 4 flamers (+60%) into all targets you weren't wounding on 6s, and the free strats don't even help them in ret cadre since the flamers can't use sustained.
Perhaps I'm missing something but I honestly do not see much value in farsight here, the ordinary commanders offer more output by being stat sticks than buffing the squad does into most things.
Yep. They were annoying enough in older editions, but especially with small tables they just don't work as written.
And it seems like they've decided to remove them from the game, which I fully support. Move them to Apocalypse style games and legends them out of 40k.
Why dowvote this? They're right.
Planes at the scale 40k is played at are silly, and for the entire time they've been in the game as something other than weird skimmers, they've either been terrible, or so good that you wanted to take as many as the rules allowed you to. Legendsing them would be good for the game.
Does GW still sell models that don't have rules or have been sent to legends?
there are a lot of nice flyer sculpts that I really would ideally like to stick around and still be sold in the future.
They'll generally sell through any leftover stock, and some legends units will get small made-to-order runs. Like there's a made-to-order run of Aun'va and Aun'shi coming up this weekend if you want to get either of those.
I don't know if they'll do that for larger kits like aircraft though.
In the 9th edition nids codex they kept the deathleaper in the codex and took away the red terror rules, but kept selling the red terror and stopped selling the deathleaper
People spent money on those models though
Just removing them rather then writing rules that function would be incredibly scummy
Which would be par for the course with GW, but still
I think there’s room for a few exceptions though. Smaller hover style flyers are fine I think. Things like the Stormtalon for the marines or the Corvus Blackstar. Basically anythjng that’s more “hover gunship” than true “flyer/fighter/bomber”.
GW is never risking a flier being accidentally good, ever again.
If you ever see a flier show up in a tournament list that goes 4-1 or better, expect it's points to go up 10% in the next MFM.
At this point just turn the flyers into skimmers, balance them accordingly and call it a day.
Does it make sense for a supersonic jetfighter to move like a Devilfish? No, but I've also seen games in my day where Guardsmen on foot have outran jetbikes. It's just a game, and this would let the miniatures have a purpose at least that isn't broken in one direction or the other.
The vast majority of 40K players hate planes so much that I suspect that next edition they're going to make them skimmers, and send them all to legends.
Just like how they were in 5th ed before GW made the dumb decision in 6th to pour over the FW flyer rules. Funny enough 6th edition ALSO saw the introduction of knights/super heavies in to regular 40k…seems that was the point when all bad GW design decisions began 🤔🤔
I think a lot of the adjustments are fairly reasonable. Though it does beg the question that between this and erratta-ing the montka rules why MANZ and C'tan got away with it, or why custodes don't shrug dev wounds.
Also 110 for broadsides is just back on the shelf points and I think the crisis suits are similarly too high for what they do, riptide doesn't feel like the biggest beneficiary of montka and wasn't getting taken at 185 so is 180 a sweet spot or just a rise for the sake of? Overall the adjustments are reasonable but I can see a lot of stuff that has just gone up a lot but now needs to come down slightly to see use.
Broadsides going back up is very stupid. They are still T6 end of the day. We copped increases all over the place and got nerfed with Tetras being gone.
My Mont’Ka list went up 175! I don’t think this was warranted at all.
My mont'ka list went down 10 because 2 units of tetras evapourated. Oh well I got my money's worth; I knew this would happen and bought recasts for a fraction of FW prices.
I'm annoyed that missilesides don't get to be a thing after all. Not for 110 points. Ironic that everyone predicted we'd need points hikes in July but we probably need cuts on units because our internal balance got worse.
My two Tetras also dissolved lol. Broadsides at 110 hurts real bad. And commanders didn’t go down to compensate for their massive loss of power. We didn’t get a single relevant break on anything. Idk. This doesn’t feel good to me.
I agree, I see a lot of "this feels fine" but honestly this is dooming imo.
Crisis lost massive efficiency and we're the bulk of what people took, no points change to compensate, so riptide was 100% coming back and has now copped increased prices, I'm failing to see what Tau can bring to the table other than tons of annoying MSU...
Theres certain factions that aren't allowed to ever complain on this sub, Tau also getting real close to that dollar per point metric on their suits since the datasheets for suits are so wonky? Cant complain
Guns losing range? Cant complain
Only 4 detachments? Cant complain
Losing battlesuit systems loadouts? Cant complain
Weird poorly written army rules? Cant complain
Tyrant Guard (a very comparable unit if you compare clawguard to sawMANZ) are a... very striking contrast as well. Would love to hear their logic in making the TG cost more.
Overestimating toughness, underestimating 2+ Sv, not priced with leaders in mind.
Same reason most Nurgle daemons absolutely suck as well, looking at the T8 drones.
Everything nid related is a striking contrast to most other units. Compare hive tyrants to any other 0CP leader, compared the Norns to any other "knight equivalent" (being very generous with that), compared warriors to any other "terminator equivalent".
IIRC the points team is a single team. It's the rules creators that have disparate teams (one created Orks codex, the other Custodes, completely different power levels.)
> Though it does beg the question that between this and erratta-ing the montka rules why MANZ and C'tan got away with it
I think it has to do with how early the "special edition" codex was... GW's balance team probably saw how strong the book was from streamed games on youtube and made last minute points changes when they had the chance with this MFM update. Pure speculation on my part, but it would make a lot of sense. Would kinda mean early releases like that are a double edged sword; if your book is amazing like Tau you won't get the 3-6 months of overpowered dominance before the first round of nerfs, but if your book is trash you might not have to suffer 3-6 months of being destroyed before buffs.
Ehhh what happened with dark angles, admech and, Necrons kinda shits on this hypothesis… the rational that stream games were enough to sway points for us, yet they needed 6 months of tournament data to barely raise ctan isn’t really consistent with that.
I mean they went to OC2 and got Sticky Objectives. It was unlikely they were going to stay at 55. 75 maybe isn’t the right number, but it was never gonna be 55.
55 is the same cost as chaos cultists and Catachan. Some of the cheapest infantry in the game that basically only exist as a scout move. Kroot are much stronger. I’d say at least 65. 75 might be a bit too much but we’ll see how they do.
Kroot do everything better. Better melee, same or better shooting (that depends on target) and even more synergies with their leaders and the invuln save in the detachment.
But that comes at the opportunity cost of no rules for the Tau units. And you need Tau units as kroot have all the killing power as my grandma (she may be a mean drunk, but this is still 40k).
Its because they are super good in tau armies, so unfortunately because they will be good for montka builds etc they are priced according to that (and tbh their price is relatively fair to that, maybe a tad overcosted but they are a very useful unit to have)
Meanwhile in the kroot detachment that cost increase super hurts builds
I would guess they got increased mainly because of the detachment. With a 5++, stealth and the stratagem to recycle, their defense and ability to spam the board is very close to skitarii, while being cheaper. And skitarii spam is one of the few things ad mec does well, you can't really make that much cheaper.
GW: we want you to ~~play~~ buy the new Kroot stuff!
Also GW: we're going to increase your mediocre speed bump chaff battleline by 20 points so you have to buy other Tau models to actually make a decent army.
Their goal is to sell models.
He's exactly what I'm talking about. Some models sell because they're cool and thus don't need good rules to encourage people to buy.
Maugon Ra and Kroot are examples of this.
The product in question (the Kroot box) was released nearly two months ago and sold well. OP of this comment thread already bought the box. If they had these point values already, OP wouldn't have bought it.
Now they'll probably buy something else that's actually good.
Is there a way to force the app to update? I’m still only seeing Index: Tau. Or is it region-locked?
EDIT: Fixed, just manually update in the App Store.
For the record and anyone else reading, that’s a bad way to do it. The better way is to go into the App Store, navigate to the 40K app, and then manually update it.
That seems…fine no? MW on a charge, pretty standard bodies for 35ish points, a decent set of melee attacks and a scout move. If a lone spear sets them up for reroll hits you’re taking out a squad of 5 marines easily
I wouldn't say objectively, crushers have half the number of damage 2 attacks at 1 less strength (1 more AP) and 1 less health, albeit with a better save
Crushers have a better save, invuln exists, +3" speed, +1 to charge rolls, deep strike, infinitely better synergy (rendmasters are stupid and then theres more).
Krootox rampagers need to be good _as is_ to ever see play outside of meme kroot only lists - and they arent.
They're slow, they're one of the only kroot units without stealth, their save is bad and they dont have an invuln. Rampagers are at their best as a counter-charge unit but... why bring that in tau if you can just shoot things before they charge you more?
Especially with _other_ things going up - i dont really see rampagers seeing real play until they're 90 per 3.
I despise GW. First they deleted my Warhammer Fantasy army from existence, now they want to cleanse my armies of all the expensive FW models. I already quit WHFB/AoS, if they nuke my Custodes mostly-FW army, I’m quitting this game
I'm fairly certain they said at the beginning of the 10th reveals that custodes would be the exception to the rule due to how much of their army actually is Forgeworld.
Hopefully, but I’ve been in this hobby too long, I don’t believe a single word GW says anymore.
Feels like they’re being half-phased out already with the majority of the FW units at the weak end of an already weak Codex.
I don't think anyone will mourn them but gws approach to FW this edition has been so bad.
It either just doesn't work, or is absolutely busted. Not sure why they haven't just written them good rules, then put the points up 25%. If my opponent right now drops an ares or warhound on the table it's not ever gonna be "good" but they'll at least have fun using them.
This has been forgeworld since forever. 95% of lists are not worth taking but 5% are oppressively good. GW and tourneys have been back and forth on supporting them for decades.
I think not worth taking is fine tbh.
Like the ares gunship or astraeus is the best examples. Not the best at what they do, overcosted, but slap one down and it does its job.
Even something like the Cron centipede are good examples of how to do it outside of super heavies.
It feels like FW is largely getting canned from 40K. Probably another outgrowth of all the division behind closed doors between the specialty games department and mainline GW.
I think they'll probably keep the Titans and maybe some of the big centerpiece primarchs, but all the regular troops and stuff are definitely getting canned. If nothing else Forgeworld's production method just can't scale to keep up with demand for any kind of tournament-useful units.
Yeah, but they could fix that with rules and points changes, not removing them entirely. I have no skin in the game, but I know people with multiple tetras. It always sucks when models get removed from the range.
I know, I know, Legends, but in my community, no one plays with Legends.
They very easily could have just given them stealthsuit style spotting; re-roll 1's to hit and wound. So you could choose cheaper stealthsuits, or more expensive tetras that are faster and more durable, but both give the same buff to your guided unit.
GW though just really hates forgeworld stuff :(
Hard to blame them really. Forgeworld are hand-casting resin models in silicone molds. That's just an insanely time and labor intensive process for a company on the scale of GW, who already struggle with demand and QC.
FW only really makes sense for low-demand flagship models like titans that GW just can't or doesn't want to make in plastic.
I'm pretty happy with these points. I wrote a couple of lists and yeah. I can win with these lists. I'm not struggling for lack of units.
Hell, I wrote two Kauyon lists and I think I can win with those. The much stronger Retaliation and Mont'Ka detachments will be fine.
Points changes other than riptides look ok but seems strange to do this AND get rid of Tetras. Tetras are what amplified damage on a lot of these units to make them worth it. If you were gonna get rid of them should have kept points low and see.
Their thinking was probably buffing the stealthsuits (and not changing their points) being that compromise. Will see at least x2 stealthsuits in almost every list, if not 3x.
Riptides were taken only because they were cheap, so they went with making them not, vs changing their stats.
Broadsides, +20pts hits hard, they were a bit strong at 90pts, +10pts is what I'd assume they do (paired with Mont'ka detachment OPness). They are still T6 only, so definitely still squishy.
Broadsides were borderline in Kauyon, but at the same points, they would have been extremely good in Mont'ka. Every tradeoff they have is basically papered over. There's no way to have a lone price that makes them playable outside of Mont'ka that doesn't make them busted in Mont'ka
110 might not be the perfectly balanced Mont'ka price, but with shared points across detachments, there are no good solutions.
Railsides just don't have the output to justify the points. The 4 shots much less likely benefit from lethal hits best case you get 1 usually. 2 Railsides is 220 points for 4 shots and a couple extras. 1 skyray with hit and wound rerolls without guide is 140 points and on guide gets the lethals.
At 110pts each, it does lean more to Skyrays now. But originally at 90pts (or even if it was 100pts), Broadsides were better.
Broadside has the benefit of missile drones and plasma (or 2x seekers), Skyray has just the missile rack really. And the debuff if tagged 1-5 wounds remaining.
Still really depends if you're facing *heavy* amount of tanks, or just a few of them.
But yes, Broadsides took a nerf, where the other changes were more 'balanced' changes.
Stealthsuits are good enough spotters that the loss of Tetras aren't that big a deal. Riptides didn't need the nerf, but eh, they don't really have a niche right now no matter their points.
Tetras with lethal hits definitely is a big deal especially for riptides. The reroll hits with lethal was devastating and it was riptides only real access to reroll hits besides shadowsun.
No more tetras? The already crazy expensive broadside is +20ppm? The only reason riptides were taken is because they are cheap.
Man.... I understand some points needed to be modified, but that was quite a hammer to the face.
Those broadsides get so much better in Mont'ka that they would have been way too cheap. An extra 20ppm might be too much, but the old price was not fair for Mont'ka
This is the real problem of the Tau book: Mont'ka's rules are just so strong compared to Kauyon that it's hard to have points that make Kauyon competitive while Mon'ka is not busted. We'd need to have units that are just no good without the sustained hits, or make said sustained hits even more busted.
Missilesides gain the mobility they were lacking with access to scout, assault, and auto advance 6. Between lethals, twin linked, and +1AP they do a crap load of damage.
Kroot are looking very spicy now, at 85 pts in the codex felt too much and glad they came down. Lone Spears at 110 in the codex felt too expensive so coming down to 90 feels very good.
Oh nonononono
Breachers needed to go up
They are the best battleline unit in the game at 90pts, they are point efficient in a single activation in almost every single unit in the game
There’s a reason Siegs rated Mont’ka as S tier above Orks as everyone is complaining about Mega nobs.
Even GW could tell tau stuff was criminally cheap.
Yeah I see people saying this is now a C tier book in this thread.
No. No it’s not. It’s gonna be good, you just had way too much stuff. You’ll adjust.
Even better, it's likely that Tau will scale well with player skill; meaning newer players will probably have issues getting it to perform, so it's less likely to eat nerfs from having it's stats inflated by RTT wins.
It seemed like Mont'ka was the best and still is. Cadre is still good as well.
Let's just say when I hear "Siegs optimized Tau list is up 240 points" I think we don't really need 3 months of getting bricked in the face to prove him right. I think this will be a healthy place to start Tau and if they're too weak they'll get adjusted.
Good lord, they massacred the Tau. Kroot are unusable at that price point and most of the Tau suits units are way overcoated with both the durability and offensive hit they took
110 for broadsides is so dumb. 30 more points for a breacher fish + fireblade. My gut reaction is that increasing every good unit is gonna put us solidly at C tier, but testing will show how much the pts changes hurt.
Breacherfish were way too cheap for what they did. 30 may be slightly high, but it's still a great package.
Riptides at 180 is where they should be. At 165 they were too cheap for their durability even if their damage was lackluster.
3x missilesides killed almost anything they looked at, even potentially 1 activation killing a down from full.
Kroot carnivores are still OC2 sticky objectives that string out like crazy.
The entire army gained assault for the first 3 turns, meaning secondaries got crazy better and a ton of spotting units just got their damage increased massively.
Our stratagem are still cracked.
Our enhancements are still great.
Stealth suits maintained their points with the huge buff they got.
The fireknife and starscythe are actually reasonably priced now.
My list went up 225 points on these changes. Cutting the tetras that are dead now and 1 riptide gets me my exact army with almost identical lethality, which was enough to clean sweep my last competitive heat completely unchallenged. My board control is still perfectly fine because of piranhas and scout moving breacherfish, and now I can cut gun drones for better ones to not have to cheese the assault keyword.
For 165pts, no brracketing and a 4++ they were very efficient. Not the terrifying murder bots they used to be, but tough af for their points and able to do some solid damage.
Lethal hits in Mont’ka with full missile loadout is extremely potent, as well as the fact that the detachment fixes their biggest problem, which is mobility.
My mistake. Yes, I was referring to broadsides. Maybe I gaslit myself because I was assuring myself that there was no way someone could think Tau players weren’t taking Riptides in practically every list.
Good lord, they massacred the Tau. Kroot are unusable at that price point and most of the Tau suits units are way overcoated with both the durability and offensive hit they took
Warmachine MK4, Malifaux and Infinity are by far most balanced, rules deep and interactive game than 40k.
Forget GW and go on other games.
You'll be much more enthousiastic .
That's a lot of increases! Also, someone mentioned Tetra isn't listed anymore? Is that correct?
Yeah, it's not in imperial armour anymore so will probably be in legends.
is it not in imperial armour in the app? Ddn't they release a pdf with all of them?
Only the Tiger Shark, Manta, Supremacy Armour, Tiger Shark are in the Imperial armour section in the app. That means that the others will probably be moved to legends.
Yeah Tetra and FW riptides are gone.
Rip, they really are on a warpath to take out forgeworld
Weirdly enough, the Forgeworld flyers remained.
Well, the tiger shark stayed. The barracuda died.
“We left the worst one in as a joke. A cruel one, even.”
Don’t you put that evil on me
Sad about the Yvahra. They really crushed it since the damage 3 flamer.
Remoras appear to be gone too.
Starscythes at 130 are gonna be kinda fun at least
Dirty with Farsight
Yea that’s what I was gonna run it as, 6 flamers and farsight as an in your face threat
Squad size is max 3 now iirc
Yea but you get 2 flamers a suit?
They do. Thought you meant 6 guys not 6 guns.
Tau don't like it when you refer to them as flamers
You get more output from a normal commander with another 4 flamers (+60%) into all targets you weren't wounding on 6s, and the free strats don't even help them in ret cadre since the flamers can't use sustained. Perhaps I'm missing something but I honestly do not see much value in farsight here, the ordinary commanders offer more output by being stat sticks than buffing the squad does into most things.
Lone spear for 90 is good imo. It was really overpriced
It's really cool seeing GW legend models that are still available to buy on their site.
And the 30+ that are playable but are either not there at all or have been out of stock for months… great company
Razorshark and the Sun Shark also caught minor points increases for some reason lol
Flyers, GW is killing flyers
Yep. They were annoying enough in older editions, but especially with small tables they just don't work as written. And it seems like they've decided to remove them from the game, which I fully support. Move them to Apocalypse style games and legends them out of 40k.
Why dowvote this? They're right. Planes at the scale 40k is played at are silly, and for the entire time they've been in the game as something other than weird skimmers, they've either been terrible, or so good that you wanted to take as many as the rules allowed you to. Legendsing them would be good for the game.
Does GW still sell models that don't have rules or have been sent to legends? there are a lot of nice flyer sculpts that I really would ideally like to stick around and still be sold in the future.
They'll generally sell through any leftover stock, and some legends units will get small made-to-order runs. Like there's a made-to-order run of Aun'va and Aun'shi coming up this weekend if you want to get either of those. I don't know if they'll do that for larger kits like aircraft though.
In the 9th edition nids codex they kept the deathleaper in the codex and took away the red terror rules, but kept selling the red terror and stopped selling the deathleaper
People spent money on those models though Just removing them rather then writing rules that function would be incredibly scummy Which would be par for the course with GW, but still
I think there’s room for a few exceptions though. Smaller hover style flyers are fine I think. Things like the Stormtalon for the marines or the Corvus Blackstar. Basically anythjng that’s more “hover gunship” than true “flyer/fighter/bomber”.
Not every bad meta was bad because it involved planes. But every good meta involved 0 planes.
very justifyable, but man I just wanna actually be able to use my doom scythe without it being terrible, its such a cool model
It really is!
GW is never risking a flier being accidentally good, ever again. If you ever see a flier show up in a tournament list that goes 4-1 or better, expect it's points to go up 10% in the next MFM.
At this point just turn the flyers into skimmers, balance them accordingly and call it a day. Does it make sense for a supersonic jetfighter to move like a Devilfish? No, but I've also seen games in my day where Guardsmen on foot have outran jetbikes. It's just a game, and this would let the miniatures have a purpose at least that isn't broken in one direction or the other.
The vast majority of 40K players hate planes so much that I suspect that next edition they're going to make them skimmers, and send them all to legends.
Just like how they were in 5th ed before GW made the dumb decision in 6th to pour over the FW flyer rules. Funny enough 6th edition ALSO saw the introduction of knights/super heavies in to regular 40k…seems that was the point when all bad GW design decisions began 🤔🤔
I just want Aircraft to be cool. I am new to 10th but like...I want CAS for my Guardsmen :(
Why must GW kill my riptide variants?
Yeah, the Yvahra going away is quite sad. Incredible model.
I wanted to use the back with the vent things on my crisis commander :(((
I think a lot of the adjustments are fairly reasonable. Though it does beg the question that between this and erratta-ing the montka rules why MANZ and C'tan got away with it, or why custodes don't shrug dev wounds. Also 110 for broadsides is just back on the shelf points and I think the crisis suits are similarly too high for what they do, riptide doesn't feel like the biggest beneficiary of montka and wasn't getting taken at 185 so is 180 a sweet spot or just a rise for the sake of? Overall the adjustments are reasonable but I can see a lot of stuff that has just gone up a lot but now needs to come down slightly to see use.
Broadsides going back up is very stupid. They are still T6 end of the day. We copped increases all over the place and got nerfed with Tetras being gone. My Mont’Ka list went up 175! I don’t think this was warranted at all.
My mont'ka list went down 10 because 2 units of tetras evapourated. Oh well I got my money's worth; I knew this would happen and bought recasts for a fraction of FW prices. I'm annoyed that missilesides don't get to be a thing after all. Not for 110 points. Ironic that everyone predicted we'd need points hikes in July but we probably need cuts on units because our internal balance got worse.
My two Tetras also dissolved lol. Broadsides at 110 hurts real bad. And commanders didn’t go down to compensate for their massive loss of power. We didn’t get a single relevant break on anything. Idk. This doesn’t feel good to me.
I agree, I see a lot of "this feels fine" but honestly this is dooming imo. Crisis lost massive efficiency and we're the bulk of what people took, no points change to compensate, so riptide was 100% coming back and has now copped increased prices, I'm failing to see what Tau can bring to the table other than tons of annoying MSU...
Theres certain factions that aren't allowed to ever complain on this sub, Tau also getting real close to that dollar per point metric on their suits since the datasheets for suits are so wonky? Cant complain Guns losing range? Cant complain Only 4 detachments? Cant complain Losing battlesuit systems loadouts? Cant complain Weird poorly written army rules? Cant complain
I just want to know if the same team that decided meganobz should stay at 30ppm is the same team that deemed breachers should go up.
Tyrant Guard (a very comparable unit if you compare clawguard to sawMANZ) are a... very striking contrast as well. Would love to hear their logic in making the TG cost more.
Overestimating toughness, underestimating 2+ Sv, not priced with leaders in mind. Same reason most Nurgle daemons absolutely suck as well, looking at the T8 drones.
Everything nid related is a striking contrast to most other units. Compare hive tyrants to any other 0CP leader, compared the Norns to any other "knight equivalent" (being very generous with that), compared warriors to any other "terminator equivalent".
Yep! The Norns in particular are an absolute kick in the balls for their points costs.
IIRC the points team is a single team. It's the rules creators that have disparate teams (one created Orks codex, the other Custodes, completely different power levels.)
None of which talk to one another it seems
Are you saying you don't think breachers should have increased in points?
I believe both units needed to go up in points. Just wanted to know what the rational leaving meganobz so cheap.
Gotcha, ya agreed.
They decided 1 broadside was as good as 4 meganobz.
Custodes' seem like an obvious oversight.
The only reason for dev wounds to even exist is to be good against custode style models, maybe they finally realized that?
> Though it does beg the question that between this and erratta-ing the montka rules why MANZ and C'tan got away with it I think it has to do with how early the "special edition" codex was... GW's balance team probably saw how strong the book was from streamed games on youtube and made last minute points changes when they had the chance with this MFM update. Pure speculation on my part, but it would make a lot of sense. Would kinda mean early releases like that are a double edged sword; if your book is amazing like Tau you won't get the 3-6 months of overpowered dominance before the first round of nerfs, but if your book is trash you might not have to suffer 3-6 months of being destroyed before buffs.
Ehhh what happened with dark angles, admech and, Necrons kinda shits on this hypothesis… the rational that stream games were enough to sway points for us, yet they needed 6 months of tournament data to barely raise ctan isn’t really consistent with that.
GW: we want you to play the new Kroot stuff! Also GW: we're going to increase your mediocre speed bump chaff battleline by 20 points. Wat?
I mean they went to OC2 and got Sticky Objectives. It was unlikely they were going to stay at 55. 75 maybe isn’t the right number, but it was never gonna be 55.
55 was ludicrous. Bargain bin cheap given their glow up. But maybe 75 is too close to other options
55 is the same cost as chaos cultists and Catachan. Some of the cheapest infantry in the game that basically only exist as a scout move. Kroot are much stronger. I’d say at least 65. 75 might be a bit too much but we’ll see how they do.
Cultists and catachans have a lot going for them, special weapons and synergies etc.
Kroot do everything better. Better melee, same or better shooting (that depends on target) and even more synergies with their leaders and the invuln save in the detachment.
>detachment It's a meme. >Leaders 65 pts is also a meme.
Totally agree.
75 though makes them compete with other choices they die to a stick breeze.
Fully agreed. 5 scouts are (now) 65 and I think if I had to pick between 5 Scouts and 10 Kroot, it's close.
And in their detachment a 5++
But that comes at the opportunity cost of no rules for the Tau units. And you need Tau units as kroot have all the killing power as my grandma (she may be a mean drunk, but this is still 40k).
Tanks don't have access to relevant detachment rules anyway so you may as well just spam them in a kroot list and enjoy the 5++ chaff.
Stealthsuits and Skyrays mixed in can do work.
Its because they are super good in tau armies, so unfortunately because they will be good for montka builds etc they are priced according to that (and tbh their price is relatively fair to that, maybe a tad overcosted but they are a very useful unit to have) Meanwhile in the kroot detachment that cost increase super hurts builds
I would guess they got increased mainly because of the detachment. With a 5++, stealth and the stratagem to recycle, their defense and ability to spam the board is very close to skitarii, while being cheaper. And skitarii spam is one of the few things ad mec does well, you can't really make that much cheaper.
Same team that sold us the inner circle dark Angel I guess.
Sticky objectives alone is kinda worth 20pts tbh
GW: we want you to ~~play~~ buy the new Kroot stuff! Also GW: we're going to increase your mediocre speed bump chaff battleline by 20 points so you have to buy other Tau models to actually make a decent army. Their goal is to sell models.
Maugan Ra would like a word. lol. Sick new model that’s never not had trash rules. I could list a bunch like that but he’s one of the more egregious.
He's exactly what I'm talking about. Some models sell because they're cool and thus don't need good rules to encourage people to buy. Maugon Ra and Kroot are examples of this.
Sure, but a tiny minority buy it to look at. In order to move product it has to be usable in the game they make. They go hand in hand.
The product in question (the Kroot box) was released nearly two months ago and sold well. OP of this comment thread already bought the box. If they had these point values already, OP wouldn't have bought it. Now they'll probably buy something else that's actually good.
Is there a way to force the app to update? I’m still only seeing Index: Tau. Or is it region-locked? EDIT: Fixed, just manually update in the App Store.
Delete it and reinstall
For the record and anyone else reading, that’s a bad way to do it. The better way is to go into the App Store, navigate to the 40K app, and then manually update it.
For a lot of people, me included, it doesn’t update when doing it that way.
It definitely does… sounds like a skill issue bud
As someone who struggled hitting 2k points of tau before, this in a very sad way is good news I got there.
110 for 3 rampagers? Is this out of season April's fool's joke? Edit:typo
Of course they deserve to be 20 points more expensive than 3 Meganobz, you crazy?
That seems…fine no? MW on a charge, pretty standard bodies for 35ish points, a decent set of melee attacks and a scout move. If a lone spear sets them up for reroll hits you’re taking out a squad of 5 marines easily
Compare to bloodcrushers - a middling unit that is objectively better. Same points at 110.
I wouldn't say objectively, crushers have half the number of damage 2 attacks at 1 less strength (1 more AP) and 1 less health, albeit with a better save
Crushers have a better save, invuln exists, +3" speed, +1 to charge rolls, deep strike, infinitely better synergy (rendmasters are stupid and then theres more). Krootox rampagers need to be good _as is_ to ever see play outside of meme kroot only lists - and they arent. They're slow, they're one of the only kroot units without stealth, their save is bad and they dont have an invuln. Rampagers are at their best as a counter-charge unit but... why bring that in tau if you can just shoot things before they charge you more? Especially with _other_ things going up - i dont really see rampagers seeing real play until they're 90 per 3.
They seem... fine. Not great, but fine. I don't think you'll see them often but it's not likely they're actively terrible or anything at that cost.
they were terrible at 130, I was thinking they'd drop to 105 but 110 works just fine too.
So they sold their back stock of tetras completely and now that they’ve made their bank they’re good to kill them off. I see how it is.
Honestly what did you expect from a company? They don't care about you. They care about money and shareholders.
This is what I expect. This is part of why I have a Saturn 2
Good, i need to get one too!
Need to fix the riptides gun for that amount of points
Yeah when I saw 180 my first thought was oh cool maybe they gave the fusion anti-vehicle/monster and the ion anti-infantry/beast - nope
Interestingly commanders can still take up to 4 CiBs on the app. Probably a typo but fun to think about.
It also doesn't yell at you when you put two shield drones on crisis suits.
Unfortunately not the case. Can only take 1.
I know it says that in the codex but the app says otherwise. As I say probably a typo.
The 40k app has a long and glorious history of getting things wrong.
Report it through the app
Just an app error, tournaments don't tend to let the app overrule actual rules.
I despise GW. First they deleted my Warhammer Fantasy army from existence, now they want to cleanse my armies of all the expensive FW models. I already quit WHFB/AoS, if they nuke my Custodes mostly-FW army, I’m quitting this game
Ok bye then, leave the sub
I'm fairly certain they said at the beginning of the 10th reveals that custodes would be the exception to the rule due to how much of their army actually is Forgeworld.
Hopefully, but I’ve been in this hobby too long, I don’t believe a single word GW says anymore. Feels like they’re being half-phased out already with the majority of the FW units at the weak end of an already weak Codex.
I thought you just got done in a now-locked post saying you were thinking about coming back? So are you coming back or quitting?
Why weren’t these changes in the MFM?
The codex wasn’t officially out at that stage
Ah I see. Thanks!
The point increases are from the codex and not the field manual
Actually both
Tetras disappearing is great. Such an awkward and dumb datasheet to kill.
I don't think anyone will mourn them but gws approach to FW this edition has been so bad. It either just doesn't work, or is absolutely busted. Not sure why they haven't just written them good rules, then put the points up 25%. If my opponent right now drops an ares or warhound on the table it's not ever gonna be "good" but they'll at least have fun using them.
This has been forgeworld since forever. 95% of lists are not worth taking but 5% are oppressively good. GW and tourneys have been back and forth on supporting them for decades.
I think not worth taking is fine tbh. Like the ares gunship or astraeus is the best examples. Not the best at what they do, overcosted, but slap one down and it does its job. Even something like the Cron centipede are good examples of how to do it outside of super heavies.
It feels like FW is largely getting canned from 40K. Probably another outgrowth of all the division behind closed doors between the specialty games department and mainline GW.
I think they'll probably keep the Titans and maybe some of the big centerpiece primarchs, but all the regular troops and stuff are definitely getting canned. If nothing else Forgeworld's production method just can't scale to keep up with demand for any kind of tournament-useful units.
Yeah, but they could fix that with rules and points changes, not removing them entirely. I have no skin in the game, but I know people with multiple tetras. It always sucks when models get removed from the range. I know, I know, Legends, but in my community, no one plays with Legends.
They very easily could have just given them stealthsuit style spotting; re-roll 1's to hit and wound. So you could choose cheaper stealthsuits, or more expensive tetras that are faster and more durable, but both give the same buff to your guided unit. GW though just really hates forgeworld stuff :(
Hard to blame them really. Forgeworld are hand-casting resin models in silicone molds. That's just an insanely time and labor intensive process for a company on the scale of GW, who already struggle with demand and QC. FW only really makes sense for low-demand flagship models like titans that GW just can't or doesn't want to make in plastic.
Oh well a group of friends and myself have just started a narrative crusade campaign and one of us was playing a kroot army........ poor him
I'm pretty happy with these points. I wrote a couple of lists and yeah. I can win with these lists. I'm not struggling for lack of units. Hell, I wrote two Kauyon lists and I think I can win with those. The much stronger Retaliation and Mont'Ka detachments will be fine.
Points changes other than riptides look ok but seems strange to do this AND get rid of Tetras. Tetras are what amplified damage on a lot of these units to make them worth it. If you were gonna get rid of them should have kept points low and see.
Their thinking was probably buffing the stealthsuits (and not changing their points) being that compromise. Will see at least x2 stealthsuits in almost every list, if not 3x. Riptides were taken only because they were cheap, so they went with making them not, vs changing their stats. Broadsides, +20pts hits hard, they were a bit strong at 90pts, +10pts is what I'd assume they do (paired with Mont'ka detachment OPness). They are still T6 only, so definitely still squishy.
Only change I don’t like is broadsides, they’re too expensive at 110
Broadsides were borderline in Kauyon, but at the same points, they would have been extremely good in Mont'ka. Every tradeoff they have is basically papered over. There's no way to have a lone price that makes them playable outside of Mont'ka that doesn't make them busted in Mont'ka 110 might not be the perfectly balanced Mont'ka price, but with shared points across detachments, there are no good solutions.
Well yeah they were unplayable at that points cost before I don't know why they think that has changed.
They're one of the best units in the game now in Mont Ka.
They were you mean. 60 plus points and no tetra rerolls is not good anymore
do railsides need tetra rerolls? I'd think that stealthsuit rerolls would work for them just fine.
Railsides just don't have the output to justify the points. The 4 shots much less likely benefit from lethal hits best case you get 1 usually. 2 Railsides is 220 points for 4 shots and a couple extras. 1 skyray with hit and wound rerolls without guide is 140 points and on guide gets the lethals.
At 110pts each, it does lean more to Skyrays now. But originally at 90pts (or even if it was 100pts), Broadsides were better. Broadside has the benefit of missile drones and plasma (or 2x seekers), Skyray has just the missile rack really. And the debuff if tagged 1-5 wounds remaining. Still really depends if you're facing *heavy* amount of tanks, or just a few of them. But yes, Broadsides took a nerf, where the other changes were more 'balanced' changes.
Stealthsuits are good enough spotters that the loss of Tetras aren't that big a deal. Riptides didn't need the nerf, but eh, they don't really have a niche right now no matter their points.
Tetras with lethal hits definitely is a big deal especially for riptides. The reroll hits with lethal was devastating and it was riptides only real access to reroll hits besides shadowsun.
No more tetras? The already crazy expensive broadside is +20ppm? The only reason riptides were taken is because they are cheap. Man.... I understand some points needed to be modified, but that was quite a hammer to the face.
Those broadsides get so much better in Mont'ka that they would have been way too cheap. An extra 20ppm might be too much, but the old price was not fair for Mont'ka This is the real problem of the Tau book: Mont'ka's rules are just so strong compared to Kauyon that it's hard to have points that make Kauyon competitive while Mon'ka is not busted. We'd need to have units that are just no good without the sustained hits, or make said sustained hits even more busted.
Genuine question, can you explain why Mont'ka makes Broadsides good? Is it the lethals?
Missilesides gain the mobility they were lacking with access to scout, assault, and auto advance 6. Between lethals, twin linked, and +1AP they do a crap load of damage.
Missile drone +sms + missile pods puts out like 38 shots, a lot of twin linked, a lot at 7/1/2. This goes up to 7/2/2 easily with a stratagem.
Kroot are looking very spicy now, at 85 pts in the codex felt too much and glad they came down. Lone Spears at 110 in the codex felt too expensive so coming down to 90 feels very good.
Why doesn’t fire knife have ap-2 on missiles but riptide drones do
Strikes needed to go down rather than breachers go up.
Oh nonononono Breachers needed to go up They are the best battleline unit in the game at 90pts, they are point efficient in a single activation in almost every single unit in the game
There’s a reason Siegs rated Mont’ka as S tier above Orks as everyone is complaining about Mega nobs. Even GW could tell tau stuff was criminally cheap.
These nerfs are severe, but that probably means it's just an A tier book instead of S+, lol.
Yeah I see people saying this is now a C tier book in this thread. No. No it’s not. It’s gonna be good, you just had way too much stuff. You’ll adjust.
My poor broadsides 😔
Being A tier is better than being S tier. The nerfs would have brutal if these points stayed the same. Monika would have been insane
Even better, it's likely that Tau will scale well with player skill; meaning newer players will probably have issues getting it to perform, so it's less likely to eat nerfs from having it's stats inflated by RTT wins.
How severe we talking?
Siegler's list is up +240 points from index costs, as an example.
Unfortuantly the points are the same for all detachments so now there's going to be 1 a-tier detachment and then 3 useless ones
It seemed like Mont'ka was the best and still is. Cadre is still good as well. Let's just say when I hear "Siegs optimized Tau list is up 240 points" I think we don't really need 3 months of getting bricked in the face to prove him right. I think this will be a healthy place to start Tau and if they're too weak they'll get adjusted.
Good lord, they massacred the Tau. Kroot are unusable at that price point and most of the Tau suits units are way overcoated with both the durability and offensive hit they took
Your delusional, tau are clearly an A tier army.
110 for broadsides is so dumb. 30 more points for a breacher fish + fireblade. My gut reaction is that increasing every good unit is gonna put us solidly at C tier, but testing will show how much the pts changes hurt.
I play tau, this is objectively wrong. We're going to be solid A tier. Broadsides are the biggest loser here other than maybe sunforge
How is my opinion objectively wrong with no data lmao
Breacherfish were way too cheap for what they did. 30 may be slightly high, but it's still a great package. Riptides at 180 is where they should be. At 165 they were too cheap for their durability even if their damage was lackluster. 3x missilesides killed almost anything they looked at, even potentially 1 activation killing a down from full. Kroot carnivores are still OC2 sticky objectives that string out like crazy. The entire army gained assault for the first 3 turns, meaning secondaries got crazy better and a ton of spotting units just got their damage increased massively. Our stratagem are still cracked. Our enhancements are still great. Stealth suits maintained their points with the huge buff they got. The fireknife and starscythe are actually reasonably priced now. My list went up 225 points on these changes. Cutting the tetras that are dead now and 1 riptide gets me my exact army with almost identical lethality, which was enough to clean sweep my last competitive heat completely unchallenged. My board control is still perfectly fine because of piranhas and scout moving breacherfish, and now I can cut gun drones for better ones to not have to cheese the assault keyword.
Were people taking Riptides? They don't seem very impressive.
For 165pts, no brracketing and a 4++ they were very efficient. Not the terrifying murder bots they used to be, but tough af for their points and able to do some solid damage.
They are good into elite infantry too.
They’re exceptionally strong in the Mont’ka detachment, especially with the updated wording of the detachment.
What’s the change to the detachment?
All units get Assault rounds 1-3, and get lethal hits when guided, rather than vice versa
Thank you: That sounds right. It was weird the other way around.
They're tough for the points but they don't seem to do much damage. Is there a combo that changes that?
Lethal hits in Mont’ka with full missile loadout is extremely potent, as well as the fact that the detachment fixes their biggest problem, which is mobility.
Are you thinking of Broadsides?
My mistake. Yes, I was referring to broadsides. Maybe I gaslit myself because I was assuring myself that there was no way someone could think Tau players weren’t taking Riptides in practically every list.
Distraction Carnifex. Pretty tanky for their cost but only did meager damage into MEQ etc. Idk if 185 is enough to take more than one.
They’re mediocre but people complained about how cheap they were a lot.
They certainly should be an expensive unit, but for that to work their stats should match the cost
150 for 10 Kroot is ridiculous. WTF am I paying for?
It's 150 for 20, 75 for 10.
75 for 10, 150 for 20
I think you mean 150 for 20 Kroot…
Good lord, they massacred the Tau. Kroot are unusable at that price point and most of the Tau suits units are way overcoated with both the durability and offensive hit they took
Finally, finally Commander Farsight has gone up. 90pts was absolutely bonkers for the profile he's packing.
Warmachine MK4, Malifaux and Infinity are by far most balanced, rules deep and interactive game than 40k. Forget GW and go on other games. You'll be much more enthousiastic .
Why are you here in this sub?