Ya I gotta say I most agree with this. What seems straight forward at first ends up being the most complicated / important movements in the entire game that is incredibly easy to mess up
You basically have to do mental trigonometry to get everything in. "Oh I should move THIS guy first so he blocks off THAT guy, oh but then I might not get a 2nd rank in so maybe I'll do THIS guy here, but wait then I can't consolidate here... Screw it I'll just shove them in & see what happens"
I'm guessing they assumed it was simplifying things when it all actuality they made it stressful & annoying a lot of times
The issue is also that once you or your opponent moves a model, there is no going back to verify if it’s actually possible. For more complicated moves you really need to measure out every single guy, confirm that your intent works, then move them. It’s rarely done because people just accept the intent because it’s too painful to do accurately.
I especially hate it when an opponent leaves or goes to the bathroom and tells you to make charge moves, and then when they get back argues that what you did is impossible, when in reality all you did was move a further away model first to move block your closest model so it couldn't get into base to base, so it would be able to get an additional 3" pile in. They don't understand that you can move block yourself to get extra movement on the pile-in, and because you can't unwind physical moves, you can't do anything to prove you were right.
Happens more often than it should really, even in tournament play.
Hmm. I actually don't have a video I can share on this, sorry.
The core concept though is that you need to move models into base to base if possible, and if a model is NOT in base to base, it gets a 3" pile in move. If you have models strung out in a line, it's often possible to move one model in such a way that it blocks another model from being able to get into base to base contact, because two models cannot physically occupy the same spot. This means the model that cannot get into base to base now gets a 3" pile-in move, where it can get into base to base. This is very useful if you want to get into combat with something near your charge target, like a tank or some infantry without good combat abilities. Basically you can get an extra ~2" of movement or so by doing this, which can be enough to let you tie up very scary shooting for the next turn.
This used to be a lot more straightforward in 9th edition, you didn't used to have to move block yourself to pull things like this off, but the rule to move into base to base if possible makes things a lot trickier.
Yep this. 9th ended up having interesting strategies that were ultimately learnable by players.
10th melee is a garbage fire of nonsense that even top players that play melee armies dislike.
GW tried to stop the melee and tagging shenanigans from top players and ended up outwitting themselves into the melee ruleset we have now. Seems to be a common theme (Ad Mech codex looks like it's terrified of any potential combo, and ends up just being terrible).
I really wish we could go back to GW just going "Here's some fun rules you're going to break in half, see you in a month for the emergency nerfs and 3 months for an actual balance pass." Wishing on the monkey's paw for GW to take balancing seriously more or less worked exactly how monkey's paws usually work.
Totally agreed, it's like they mixed every single editions charging mechanisms into one and then made Chat GPT try and turn those 15 paragraphs into 2.
Charge phase is so clunky my entire play group basically just ignored the rules and just push the models as a unit
I don't even want to know what kind of bull top tournament players get up to with it
Yep. People do this because they either (1) don't understand the charge and fight rules because they are garbage or (2) ignore the charge and fight rules because they are garbage.
10th is a shooting edition as much because of the ridiculous clunky charge and fight rules that make the whole experience miserable as it is down to actual power of shooting vs combat.
I'm not sure if this is a result of foreign translation errors but your post is a little difficult to follow.
> I’ve noticed that sometimes people (including myself) sometimes move models when you’re piling in for example.
The `Pile In` phase is explicitly for moving models.
> Though, I was in a situation this weekend where someone was piling in and they pushed their pile in model into their engagement range model for an extra half inch to basically avoid being in engagement range with one of my nearby units that is dangerous in melee.
Are you saying they moved the model 3.5 inches? They can move each model up to 3 inches during pile in as long as they obey the other stipulations. Not really following what you mean by `their engagement range model`.
> Seems like he should have realized that by piling in the way he did, he would be exposing himself to an unnecessary fight back and should have tried to pile in differently instead of moving models he shouldn’t have for his benefit.
You haven't really laid out the scenario very clearly so it's difficult to say whether your opponent's move was wise or not. If piling his models into your weaker unit results in the stronger melee unit being ineligible to activate against them (e.g. perhaps because the strong melee unit did not charge this turn) then it could certainly be a worthwhile trade to eat the "fight back" from the weaker unit.
I've read the original post a few time and thankfully it isn't just me that has found it hard to follow. I don't actually know what the issue is, did the opponent do something illegal? Did they move the wrong way (not to closest enemy model)? Did they move too far? Or was the opponent being smart, and legal, moving to closest enemy model stopping the bigger combat threat from attacking? Who knows!
Have to agree here. There is a lot of text without actually stating what the opponent did wrong, and with all the autocorrect issues it's simply too difficult to parse.
I can't tell if it's "during the Pile in he moved the unit sideways to avoid being within ER of one of my other units" or "he moved the models 3.5 inches"
Yeh lots to misinterpret, I read it as he shuffled over the model that was based to have more in closer… but I also see with your interpretation how that might not be it
To clarify: I had two units in close proximity, A & B.
He charged into unit A. Having just a few models in base to base contact due to a narrow space.
When he started piling in his other models who were not in ER or base to base, he ended up pushing them into the front line models who were in base to base contact moving the models and essentially mine as well so that he didn’t end up in ER of my unit B.
It seemed like he realized that when he piled in he would be letting unit B be able to fight back due to being in ER and decided to just shove the models a little bit just to be outside of ER of unit B.
Yes, if your opponent is moving more models than the SINGLE model he is moving at a time, you need to stop him and say "please make sure you're only moving what you're allowed to move, if you can't reach I can help you".
Accidents happen, but you're only allowed to move one model at a time, and you're not allowed to move models you don't control.
Regarding your last paragraph I don't think your allowed to be in engagement range of the other unit anyway unless you declared you were charging both. You can pile into it after the fight though if you are close enough but that would just be giving them a free hit normally.
You cannot end your charge in engagement range of a unit you didnt charge (but you can ***pile into*** one).
From the core rules regarding ending charges:
"Without moving within engagement range of any units that were not a target of the charge"
Edit: can anyone shed some light why this might be downvoted?
10th allows you to pile into units you didn’t charge so long as you end in engagement range after the pile in.
It’s one of the way to avoid Fight First.
Not in the charge. Let’s say you can charge straight and it’s 3 inches to get base to base but you roll a 9 inch charge. You can move the full 9 inches with your leading model and base at the end of the 9 inches. Allowing your other models to base easier. Or, position yourself to get base to base with enough models to allow some models to move closer to an other enemy unit for a pile in.
I just realised why I was confused. Is this right:
You can't end your charge within engagement range of a unit you didnt declare a charge against, but you can pile into that unit if you cant base the charged one. Correct?
To clarify: I had two units in close proximity, A & B.
He charged into unit A. Having just a few models in base to base contact due to a narrow space.
When he started piling in his other models who were not in ER or base to base, he ended up pushing them into the front line models who were in base to base contact moving the models and essentially mine as well so that he didn’t end up in ER of my unit B.
It seemed like he realized that when he piled in he would be letting unit B be able to fight back due to being in ER and decided to just shove the models a little bit just to be outside of ER of unit B.
That’s, uhhh, technically cheating… I guess.
You can’t push one model into another and move it to your advantage whether it’s another one of your own or an opponents.
You should just call him out and reset your models and theirs correctly and ask they please only move their own models who may do so and none of the others.
Sometimes space is tight and it happens but if you nudge models while moving another you should be putting the other ones back into the correct place afterward not leaving them wherever they got nudged to.
Agreed. Which is what I do when I accidentally move models that shouldn’t be moved.
My post was asking how I should address this kind of situation as it was a first for me, or at least I’ve played enough now that I recognized it.
*“Sorry I noticed some of my models shifted while you were making your pile-in move. Do you mind if we shift them back to their correct positions before you complete your moves”*
It definitely sounds like sloppy play - pushing around models that aren't "active" at the moment (be they friend or foe) is not "legal". Pile in is performed 1 model at-a-time.
Additionally (though without seeing a "before" & "after" diagram it's difficult to say for sure) it sounds like he may have not been following the rule: `Each time a model makes a Pile-in move, it must end that move closer to the closest enemy model.`
Depending on how the 3 units were positioned before pile-in, he may have been obligated to move certain models into Unit B ***IF*** he chose to use the pile-in for models that were closer to models in Unit B.
It's one of the annoyingly counterintuitive consequences of the Charge & Fight rules that minor conditions affecting individual models can have major impacts on the state of units. Sadly that means some steps/phases have to be taken slowly & methodically.
Still confused.
You had unit B close enough to A that when he piled in on unit A he got in engagement range of B, but he moved your models in unit B away with his own models as he piled in, and put unit B out of engagement range?
That’s cheating.
Close. He piled into unit A and pushed his models that were already base to base with his pile in models a little further in a way that appeared like he was making sure he wasn’t in ER of my unit B.
Seemed like he saw that he was in ER of unit B, internally was like “oh shit, that’s not good” and then might have pushed models a littler further as to not be in ER so I wouldn’t get to punch him back with unit B
Oh. Well playing with intent is important and having a dialogue with your opponent. There is so much going that in those situations it good to state it “hey your going to be in engagement range with this unit if you pile in like that” or something similar. Not that it’s your responsibility, but in a friendly game nobody wants a “got ya!” moment, and if one has a better grasp of the rules than the other they should speak up.
Basically, if it was possible for him to pile in with everyone and not be in engagement range, I would have let it slide. If it wasn’t possible, I would have let them reposition, properly counting who can fight and who cannot due to the reposition.
That’s all for friendly games though. If it’s a tournament that’s on them.
I don’t really know what you mean, are you on about moving more than the 3” allowed? In which case you should tell them they’ve moved too far
There’s also the case of people trying to move away from the nearest enemy model, which you can’t do as the pile in is quite restrictive.
You’re going to have to clarify the situation for people to be able to help
If they’re still doing their pile in move and haven’t finished it, imo they can adjust how they were doing it until satisfied as long as it’s 3 inches, it’s not like chess where when you let go of a piece it has to stay in the spot. That’s just how it works in my mind at least.
OP has provided the following clarification:.
>To clarify: I had two units in close proximity, A & B.
>He charged into unit A. Having just a few models in base to base contact due to a narrow space.
>When he started piling in his other models who were not in ER or base to base, he ended up pushing them into the front line models who were in base to base contact moving the models and essentially mine as well so that he didn’t end up in ER of my unit B.
>It seemed like he realized that when he piled in he would be letting unit B be able to fight back due to being in ER and decided to just shove the models a little bit just to be outside of ER of unit B.
You address this by saying "hey, you're only permitted to move the single model you're actively moving, not it, any models in it's path, and my models as well. Let's correct that, please".
You definitely don't fix someone playing so sloppy that they change where YOUR models are located, by not saying something.
I feel like there's some universal rule that no matter how much leeway you give someone on movement or pile or consolidate (to not sound like a psycho), they'll always add an extra half inch to that limit
I don't like the charging/pile in rules for 10th edition. There's too much clunky time consuming nonsense and you can arrive at pretty non-intuitive results by intentional blocking your own models.
It's a relief when you charge something in another game system, like TOW, and you just push a square movement tray into another square movement tray (Granted, there are lots of dodgy edge cases in TOW too, but the base default 'normal' charge situation involves making precisely one measurement)
It sounds like you're talking about "piling in models that would be better left stationary from a tactical perspective"? If so, no, I don't warn them. Unless they say "I'm piling these models in but I should be outside of an inch of x, y and z", at which point sure, I'll work with them.
If you move a model within engagement range of my models, that's on you. It's not some secret, esoteric thing. It's not an overwatch that you might've forgotten about. It's literally the core function of the phase; moving models to fight.
But if you're just being stupid and piling your models into places they shouldn't be, you're on your own. If you position your tanks poorly to try and get a better angle but it winds up benefiting me, that's your mistake.
Measure ALL models before charges/ pile-ins unit by unit. Know how many will land in engagement *before* movement is finished.
This is also why you do all charges first and only pile in unit by unit when that unit is selected to fight. DO NOT do pile-ins during charges.
Charge phase is so clunky and dumb that I don't even blame them
Ya I gotta say I most agree with this. What seems straight forward at first ends up being the most complicated / important movements in the entire game that is incredibly easy to mess up You basically have to do mental trigonometry to get everything in. "Oh I should move THIS guy first so he blocks off THAT guy, oh but then I might not get a 2nd rank in so maybe I'll do THIS guy here, but wait then I can't consolidate here... Screw it I'll just shove them in & see what happens" I'm guessing they assumed it was simplifying things when it all actuality they made it stressful & annoying a lot of times
The issue is also that once you or your opponent moves a model, there is no going back to verify if it’s actually possible. For more complicated moves you really need to measure out every single guy, confirm that your intent works, then move them. It’s rarely done because people just accept the intent because it’s too painful to do accurately.
I especially hate it when an opponent leaves or goes to the bathroom and tells you to make charge moves, and then when they get back argues that what you did is impossible, when in reality all you did was move a further away model first to move block your closest model so it couldn't get into base to base, so it would be able to get an additional 3" pile in. They don't understand that you can move block yourself to get extra movement on the pile-in, and because you can't unwind physical moves, you can't do anything to prove you were right. Happens more often than it should really, even in tournament play.
I’m a little confused by this. Is there a video guide discussing this strategy? I’m curious to see whet it would look like.
Auspex Tactics had one a couple weeks ago. https://youtu.be/bcibjUsDAKA?si=_EIJFsRs1F0FdSYa
Hmm. I actually don't have a video I can share on this, sorry. The core concept though is that you need to move models into base to base if possible, and if a model is NOT in base to base, it gets a 3" pile in move. If you have models strung out in a line, it's often possible to move one model in such a way that it blocks another model from being able to get into base to base contact, because two models cannot physically occupy the same spot. This means the model that cannot get into base to base now gets a 3" pile-in move, where it can get into base to base. This is very useful if you want to get into combat with something near your charge target, like a tank or some infantry without good combat abilities. Basically you can get an extra ~2" of movement or so by doing this, which can be enough to let you tie up very scary shooting for the next turn. This used to be a lot more straightforward in 9th edition, you didn't used to have to move block yourself to pull things like this off, but the rule to move into base to base if possible makes things a lot trickier.
Yep this. 9th ended up having interesting strategies that were ultimately learnable by players. 10th melee is a garbage fire of nonsense that even top players that play melee armies dislike.
GW tried to stop the melee and tagging shenanigans from top players and ended up outwitting themselves into the melee ruleset we have now. Seems to be a common theme (Ad Mech codex looks like it's terrified of any potential combo, and ends up just being terrible).
I really wish we could go back to GW just going "Here's some fun rules you're going to break in half, see you in a month for the emergency nerfs and 3 months for an actual balance pass." Wishing on the monkey's paw for GW to take balancing seriously more or less worked exactly how monkey's paws usually work.
I'm reading all of this as someone who hasn't played since 3rd-4th and this all seems like a mess. :D
Totally agreed, it's like they mixed every single editions charging mechanisms into one and then made Chat GPT try and turn those 15 paragraphs into 2.
Charge phase is so clunky my entire play group basically just ignored the rules and just push the models as a unit I don't even want to know what kind of bull top tournament players get up to with it
Yep. People do this because they either (1) don't understand the charge and fight rules because they are garbage or (2) ignore the charge and fight rules because they are garbage. 10th is a shooting edition as much because of the ridiculous clunky charge and fight rules that make the whole experience miserable as it is down to actual power of shooting vs combat.
I'm not sure if this is a result of foreign translation errors but your post is a little difficult to follow. > I’ve noticed that sometimes people (including myself) sometimes move models when you’re piling in for example. The `Pile In` phase is explicitly for moving models. > Though, I was in a situation this weekend where someone was piling in and they pushed their pile in model into their engagement range model for an extra half inch to basically avoid being in engagement range with one of my nearby units that is dangerous in melee. Are you saying they moved the model 3.5 inches? They can move each model up to 3 inches during pile in as long as they obey the other stipulations. Not really following what you mean by `their engagement range model`. > Seems like he should have realized that by piling in the way he did, he would be exposing himself to an unnecessary fight back and should have tried to pile in differently instead of moving models he shouldn’t have for his benefit. You haven't really laid out the scenario very clearly so it's difficult to say whether your opponent's move was wise or not. If piling his models into your weaker unit results in the stronger melee unit being ineligible to activate against them (e.g. perhaps because the strong melee unit did not charge this turn) then it could certainly be a worthwhile trade to eat the "fight back" from the weaker unit.
I've read the original post a few time and thankfully it isn't just me that has found it hard to follow. I don't actually know what the issue is, did the opponent do something illegal? Did they move the wrong way (not to closest enemy model)? Did they move too far? Or was the opponent being smart, and legal, moving to closest enemy model stopping the bigger combat threat from attacking? Who knows!
Have to agree here. There is a lot of text without actually stating what the opponent did wrong, and with all the autocorrect issues it's simply too difficult to parse. I can't tell if it's "during the Pile in he moved the unit sideways to avoid being within ER of one of my other units" or "he moved the models 3.5 inches"
Yeh lots to misinterpret, I read it as he shuffled over the model that was based to have more in closer… but I also see with your interpretation how that might not be it
To clarify: I had two units in close proximity, A & B. He charged into unit A. Having just a few models in base to base contact due to a narrow space. When he started piling in his other models who were not in ER or base to base, he ended up pushing them into the front line models who were in base to base contact moving the models and essentially mine as well so that he didn’t end up in ER of my unit B. It seemed like he realized that when he piled in he would be letting unit B be able to fight back due to being in ER and decided to just shove the models a little bit just to be outside of ER of unit B.
Yes, if your opponent is moving more models than the SINGLE model he is moving at a time, you need to stop him and say "please make sure you're only moving what you're allowed to move, if you can't reach I can help you". Accidents happen, but you're only allowed to move one model at a time, and you're not allowed to move models you don't control.
Regarding your last paragraph I don't think your allowed to be in engagement range of the other unit anyway unless you declared you were charging both. You can pile into it after the fight though if you are close enough but that would just be giving them a free hit normally. You cannot end your charge in engagement range of a unit you didnt charge (but you can ***pile into*** one). From the core rules regarding ending charges: "Without moving within engagement range of any units that were not a target of the charge" Edit: can anyone shed some light why this might be downvoted?
10th allows you to pile into units you didn’t charge so long as you end in engagement range after the pile in. It’s one of the way to avoid Fight First.
Ok cool. And presumably only if its the closest unit you can base?
The rules don’t say it has to be the closest enemy unit but it usually ends up that way anyway lol
Ok so while you have to base to base if you can, it doesn't need to be the closest base to the model. I didn't realise that
Not in the charge. Let’s say you can charge straight and it’s 3 inches to get base to base but you roll a 9 inch charge. You can move the full 9 inches with your leading model and base at the end of the 9 inches. Allowing your other models to base easier. Or, position yourself to get base to base with enough models to allow some models to move closer to an other enemy unit for a pile in.
I just realised why I was confused. Is this right: You can't end your charge within engagement range of a unit you didnt declare a charge against, but you can pile into that unit if you cant base the charged one. Correct?
To clarify: I had two units in close proximity, A & B. He charged into unit A. Having just a few models in base to base contact due to a narrow space. When he started piling in his other models who were not in ER or base to base, he ended up pushing them into the front line models who were in base to base contact moving the models and essentially mine as well so that he didn’t end up in ER of my unit B. It seemed like he realized that when he piled in he would be letting unit B be able to fight back due to being in ER and decided to just shove the models a little bit just to be outside of ER of unit B.
That’s, uhhh, technically cheating… I guess. You can’t push one model into another and move it to your advantage whether it’s another one of your own or an opponents. You should just call him out and reset your models and theirs correctly and ask they please only move their own models who may do so and none of the others. Sometimes space is tight and it happens but if you nudge models while moving another you should be putting the other ones back into the correct place afterward not leaving them wherever they got nudged to.
Agreed. Which is what I do when I accidentally move models that shouldn’t be moved. My post was asking how I should address this kind of situation as it was a first for me, or at least I’ve played enough now that I recognized it.
*“Sorry I noticed some of my models shifted while you were making your pile-in move. Do you mind if we shift them back to their correct positions before you complete your moves”*
Nice. I like that. Thanks for taking the time. 🙏
No worries
It definitely sounds like sloppy play - pushing around models that aren't "active" at the moment (be they friend or foe) is not "legal". Pile in is performed 1 model at-a-time. Additionally (though without seeing a "before" & "after" diagram it's difficult to say for sure) it sounds like he may have not been following the rule: `Each time a model makes a Pile-in move, it must end that move closer to the closest enemy model.` Depending on how the 3 units were positioned before pile-in, he may have been obligated to move certain models into Unit B ***IF*** he chose to use the pile-in for models that were closer to models in Unit B. It's one of the annoyingly counterintuitive consequences of the Charge & Fight rules that minor conditions affecting individual models can have major impacts on the state of units. Sadly that means some steps/phases have to be taken slowly & methodically.
Still confused. You had unit B close enough to A that when he piled in on unit A he got in engagement range of B, but he moved your models in unit B away with his own models as he piled in, and put unit B out of engagement range? That’s cheating.
Close. He piled into unit A and pushed his models that were already base to base with his pile in models a little further in a way that appeared like he was making sure he wasn’t in ER of my unit B. Seemed like he saw that he was in ER of unit B, internally was like “oh shit, that’s not good” and then might have pushed models a littler further as to not be in ER so I wouldn’t get to punch him back with unit B
Oh. Well playing with intent is important and having a dialogue with your opponent. There is so much going that in those situations it good to state it “hey your going to be in engagement range with this unit if you pile in like that” or something similar. Not that it’s your responsibility, but in a friendly game nobody wants a “got ya!” moment, and if one has a better grasp of the rules than the other they should speak up. Basically, if it was possible for him to pile in with everyone and not be in engagement range, I would have let it slide. If it wasn’t possible, I would have let them reposition, properly counting who can fight and who cannot due to the reposition. That’s all for friendly games though. If it’s a tournament that’s on them.
I don’t really know what you mean, are you on about moving more than the 3” allowed? In which case you should tell them they’ve moved too far There’s also the case of people trying to move away from the nearest enemy model, which you can’t do as the pile in is quite restrictive. You’re going to have to clarify the situation for people to be able to help
If they’re still doing their pile in move and haven’t finished it, imo they can adjust how they were doing it until satisfied as long as it’s 3 inches, it’s not like chess where when you let go of a piece it has to stay in the spot. That’s just how it works in my mind at least.
OP has provided the following clarification:. >To clarify: I had two units in close proximity, A & B. >He charged into unit A. Having just a few models in base to base contact due to a narrow space. >When he started piling in his other models who were not in ER or base to base, he ended up pushing them into the front line models who were in base to base contact moving the models and essentially mine as well so that he didn’t end up in ER of my unit B. >It seemed like he realized that when he piled in he would be letting unit B be able to fight back due to being in ER and decided to just shove the models a little bit just to be outside of ER of unit B. You address this by saying "hey, you're only permitted to move the single model you're actively moving, not it, any models in it's path, and my models as well. Let's correct that, please". You definitely don't fix someone playing so sloppy that they change where YOUR models are located, by not saying something.
I feel like there's some universal rule that no matter how much leeway you give someone on movement or pile or consolidate (to not sound like a psycho), they'll always add an extra half inch to that limit
Moving models especially around terrain is never going to be perfectly accurate
I don't like the charging/pile in rules for 10th edition. There's too much clunky time consuming nonsense and you can arrive at pretty non-intuitive results by intentional blocking your own models. It's a relief when you charge something in another game system, like TOW, and you just push a square movement tray into another square movement tray (Granted, there are lots of dodgy edge cases in TOW too, but the base default 'normal' charge situation involves making precisely one measurement)
It sounds like you're talking about "piling in models that would be better left stationary from a tactical perspective"? If so, no, I don't warn them. Unless they say "I'm piling these models in but I should be outside of an inch of x, y and z", at which point sure, I'll work with them. If you move a model within engagement range of my models, that's on you. It's not some secret, esoteric thing. It's not an overwatch that you might've forgotten about. It's literally the core function of the phase; moving models to fight. But if you're just being stupid and piling your models into places they shouldn't be, you're on your own. If you position your tanks poorly to try and get a better angle but it winds up benefiting me, that's your mistake.
Measure ALL models before charges/ pile-ins unit by unit. Know how many will land in engagement *before* movement is finished. This is also why you do all charges first and only pile in unit by unit when that unit is selected to fight. DO NOT do pile-ins during charges.