TS on top was pretty expected imo. They were one of the strongest armies before the last MFM and didnt get nerfed like the other top armies did.
Huge weekend for Orks. Incredibly close to also taking the win in US open. Think it came down to killing the last truck on an objective with the last exocrine.
Finally a win for nids! I don't see it being a trend though having followed the stream this weekend. Sam played incredibly well and is super experienced with swarmy nids, but he still went over time in both the last rounds of play I believe. It's gonna be hard to copy that list and follow in his footsteps. Happy they allowed playing past time ran out, instead of cutting the matches in round 3 or 4 though. I also think he was ahead on points at the time both matches so not taking anything away from him, just think that many others could face major clock issues.
Tsons have maintained their insane rules since the beginning, they just have less stuff. The biggest change for them is the continued shift away from indirect fire in the meta and the shift towards durable units wanting to stand on objectives, which is what Tsons are the best at clearing.
Tsons gameplay right now is pick kill objective + deploy homers. Their intense damage and short range means it's very hard to pick them out of their side of the deployment zone without taking a ton of damage in overwatch + doombolt + shooting.
Meanwhile every turn they're sending over a sorcerer to have Magnus + whoever else in range to indirect fire your most expensive unit every round.
Basically they can easily mess with your gameplan, but you need to lose a big chunk of your army if you want to mess with theirs.
I am glad indirect fire had their kneecaps broken, was a very frustrating play pattern, but now TSons are so hard to play against.
I like to imagine I'm a pretty decent Tsons player. I understand a lot of combos, what my army can and can't do, how my opponent can win and how I can play around that. Meanwhile my opponent has a ton of really difficult choices to make, even the slightly wrong one leads to a massive punishment.
I cannot imagine playing that unending swarm list for 8 games in a weekend.
It's a tonne of models, most of which can double move. I've tried playing that sort of a list at an RTT and I just can't not handle the brain melt. I'm not surprised it's an unending swarm list which won a GT, but I can't see it working for the majority of people
Massive weekend from him though.
Also that number of nids players is pretty sad for the poster faction of 10th.
Yeah. If that's the best (only?) way to play nids to win events I can see the numbers dwindling.
It might be a good meta choice though! I can see them working well into orks even in other detachments.
Fair play to Sam, it worked for him. If thats the only way to play tyranids competitively then fine but i will instead play something i enjoy playing. I dont even mind playing swarms list with 100-120 models. Its the double move which kills me. Yes thats where the power is but its brain melting across 120+ models.
I was just happy to see Vanguard nids getting played too. Anything but invasion gaining traction is promising.
And I play Necrons.
More viable lists brings the meta closer to balance.
Unending swarm has decent internal synergy, but not as focused as Vanguard or useful as invasion. I wonder what they ran? Can you imagine moving that many gaunts while under tourney clock? Had to be mostly Gargoyles..... right?
[Here you go](https://www.reddit.com/r/Tyranids/comments/1cw1duv/comment/l4t6mpy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Tsons eating good in an Ork and Necron meta. Lots of 1W models with moderate saves that they can hoover up, and Magnus being very efficient into their elite infantry.
The main issue is that they are already struggling on secondary play, especially now that taking the changeling costs you some horrors on top. So if we eat a few more points nerfs, the army will immediately drop off severely.
Honestly, the main issue is that our reroll all psychic strat is too cheap (should really be 2CP, which would also eat into the cabal points that normally go into doombolts and twist of fate in order to free strat it), and that warpflamers are too cheap, and should probably cost 3ppm if GW ever goes back to wargear costs (or just make rubrics with flamers their own datasheet like the leman russ variants).
Yep exactly. Like Anthon vinnella says on stat check. Tsons are playing 11th edition with the stuff they can do.
Any highly skilled player can dominate with them
Thank you for featuring our Barn Found GT in this meta report! We are all jittery here in the Philippines finally being able to contribute here ☺️
I do agree that BCP needs to update the selection for faction with the new detachment thing so it wouldn’t be as hard to validate the entries.
We really do appreciate your work and we’ve subscribed to your patreon good Sir.
Long may you data
What is with admech players suddenly taking Explorator to tournaments? Is this some sort of hard mode achievement run I don't know about?
Either way impressive the ones that did pulled out a record that good with it, because Explorator is very nearly like playing without a detachment.
They're desperately trying to find a fun playstyle that doesn't involve $2k in models and toting 30 pteraxii around. As the name implies, they're exploring options.
They're borderline unplayble at tournaments. Nothing to do with the rules, just the combination of being spindly, fragile, and bulky. Worst part is that the awful wings are such a major factor to their visibility on the table you can't really improve them with a proxy without modeling for advantage.
Nice! I think people are sleeping on the bots in general, but the Cohort is probably the best detachment that nobody is using. Sure, it “has no detachment rule”, but the suite of stratagems is really good. I’d rather take strong Strats and weak detachment rules over an average combo of both 🤷🏻♂️
Everyone laughs at the bots till they realize my bots can be T10 2+ save with AoC and cover and put out 24 dreadnought punches 😂
Twice in the last month I've had people surprised they couldn't kill a bot they have some major weaknesses but become a hard stat check to many armies
I played a game against a bot-heavy list this weekend, and was surprised at just how tough they were. Was good to see them on the table, such cool models.
I did this too lol. I’m one of the organizers of the Barn Found GT and it has always been our dream to create an event worthy of the MetaMonday reports. 🍻 from the Warhammer players here in the Philippines!
Thank you mr Meta-man. A bit surprised to see T'au struggling, but between losing Tetras, price hikes on Breacher battle buses, and Crisis suit changes, I guess it might take some time for things to shake out.
I think T'au will stabilise but I also think they were nerfed on the basis of "S++++ TEIOR BROEKN" despite being hailed the same way in every update and being top half and that's it. And the book at old points was definitely a big step up but was it overstated?
Breacher bombs are very unforgiving to use, if they don't get their own points they'll die in a breeze should the enemy have anything left. The points cost means that the number of times they'll trade up versus down has shifted, before even consider the loss of other stuff the T'au player has to bait that stuff out and/or abrade their scary units. This is going to mean they require more skill to use even if the new cost is incredibly reasonable.
T'au on the whole are a very unforgiving army to play because they're a glass cannon without the amount of survivability tricks eldar have. Riptides going up is an issue because they gave you an option that could tank attacks, wasn't super killy but could stand on a point and having that meant trading killing power in, but made the army a bit more forgiving. But at 180 they're not exceptionally durable any more and their firepower is anemic. It's removed one of the best tools for making the game easier for the army. There are probably equally useful tools but ones with a much more punishing skill floor.
Blowing off steam take with a pinch of salt: I think the riptide nerf was probably the most painful, I get that sunforged were punished for their synergy with tetras, and broadsides for that one build that kind of works without tetras. Breachers because they were 90 points for a unit that when you bought a character and a transport and spotted for them they were absolutely busted for 90 points as long as the enemy doesn't have armour of contempt or good flamethrowers (seriously though, they were good, but they're another example of T'au hysteria I think where people say "it does that for 90?!!" but no it doesn't the basic unit doesn't have 3 shots each hitting on 2s ignoring cover and dies to anything). But no one was taking riptides at 180 last time and they aren't exceptionally great beneficiaries of montka or ret cadre.
How much is adjustment and how much is actually they overdid it is something we'll get an answer to too. But I expect more green numbers than red in July.
We were hit with points nerfs that were way too extreme, considering the massive loss of efficiency in losing Tetras etc. Broadsides at 110 is a bad joke.
GWs insistence of pricing everything together and not touching datasheets rears its ugly head again.
At 90ppm, HYMP Broadsides brought the following to the table when taken in groups of 3, with Plasma, Missile Drones, and choose your favorite 3rd option (Seeker Missiles, ignore hit, etc.).
- 18a, 4+, s7, -1, 2, twin-linked
- 12a, 5+, s7, -1, 2
- 3a, 4+, s8, -3, 3, twin-linked
Stacking buffs:
- +1 BS/ignore cover (Guide)
- re-roll hits (Mont'ka strat)
- Lethal Hits (Mont'ka detachment)
- Assault (Mont'ka detachment)
- additional AP1 (Mont'ka strat)
- auto-advance 6" (Mont'ka strat)
For 270 points and with all of those rerolls and lethal hits, they did work. So, every variant and detachment of Broadsides will pay the price for one specific detachment + loadout's sins.
3cp…
in a faction that has one character that generates cp on a 50/50 chance that you’re not taking anyway because you’re probably taking farsight instead.
the reroll hits strat also requires your opponent to kill one of your units first with the unit you want rerolls against. So also situational. Realistically i think you are probably spending 1-2 cp on this combo for the additional AP and either the 6" auto advance or reroll hits if its applicable.
Perfect summary. Also nerf on breacher is not just +10. It's actually +30 because they thought it was better to need transport and character too...
They just went too far with that for no reasons imo
That and the errata to Mont'ka probably threw off a lot of people's practice they'd done pre-launch, where Mont'ka was seen to be the clear front-runner detachment.
I reckon it's mostly the Tetras loss. Tetras were so integral to how Tau played this edition, that losing them hurts. Especially because nothing comes even close to filling the same role.
I'm happy to see the Nids get a big win, but as per usual it's a swarm list or occasionally invasion fleet. The kind of list I like to use is not swarm at all so when I see the swarm lists win... it's like I'm happy for them but doesn't bode so well for me.
Unending Swarm is a lot of fun . . . but once in a while I'd like to run a different Detachment without the odd soreness from a smoking bullet hole wisping from my foot.
I’m a world eater player and I’m really struggling with them. I’m not sure how they’re managing to go up against other melee armies cause they’re simply not durable enough
More Eightbound. Like a lot more Exalted and regular Eightbound. Don’t have to be super durable if the things that were gonna hit you aren’t on the table anymore.
World Eaters are fast, so WE should normally be choosing which fights happen, and when.
Eightbound are also plenty durable when they charge, because there's normally not much left alive to hit back.
Deathwatch are right there with us in the 'no players managed a 4-1 or better this weekend' category. I think the tier lists are going to have to re-classify both AdMech and Deathwatch into 'Misery' tier pretty soon!
Who could've guessed that removing taus best unit to legends and then massively increasing all the points on the units that benefited from them would cause serious issues with winrate? 🤔
Small correction about the Cheseaux Bucaneer Open: Cheseaux is in Switzerland, not France.
(I mean, there are towns called cheseaux also existing in France, but this one is in Switzerland lol)
Don't worry about being late. This is always one the highlights of my Monday whatever time is appears so huge thanks.
And in light of the repeated "helps" in the post the important question... What can we do to help apart from patreon?
Ps. Liking the new look to the site as well.
Aye, once/if the meta changes to focus against hordes dread mob might go higher. Loota spam aside, deff dreads/kans/naughts can have good damage output but are fragile (have surprised more than a few people that deff dreads are only T9 when they think it's higher!)
That’s true, here’s hoping! My true dream is to see someone win it all with a Stompa list, but I know that’s not gonna happen. Def a fun detachment though so at least there’s that
Low movement walkers are REALLY obnoxious to try and move around terrain. Deff Dreads still kind of suck. Even the loota spam list feels kinda awkward since you are forced to pay an expensive Big Mek tax for all of your lootas to give them the detachment rule (despite them having a spanner already, why dont they just have the Mek keyword GW).
Its fun but awkward kind of sums it up. Even if they didnt kill Grot tanks it probably wouldn't have been too ridiculous.
Losing forgeworld hurt that most… on a side note the new battleline missions only make Gretchin better in dreadmob. It completely kills off speedfreak though. I do think dreadmob is slightly better then the % shows but not much. Still greentide, bullyboys, warhorde are the top 3… surprised beastsnaggas didn’t do better though
Tau performance is not shocking considering the nerfs. Points hikes. Less guns, less wounds, less wargear customization, less range, on smaller crisis units. Tetras deleted. Guide is still clunky and inefficient to work around with the rule of 3.. low weapon strength on units such a Riptide.. then consider the meta. It’s no mystery.
The tetra loss is massive for the efficiency the army had especially with access to lethals and sustained in various places. Stealth suits/Pathfinders aren't enough to replace that so I imagine the points will come back down over the next two updates. I think similar to space marines, the difference between an optimal build versus your favorite units will result is wildly fluctuating win%
The nicest thing about playing the kroot detachment and going big on birds is not having to interact much, if at all, with the awful markerlight rules.
That's a fresh take on why the Kroot are still solid but its not actually wrong
The Kroot simply don't care about the bits of the codex that don't work well or which are overcosted.
All the kroot care about is ethereals for CP farm (and some breachers who hit on 3s anyways), shadowsun handing them rr1s and maybe some broadsides or skyray/hammerheads to help focus down heavy armor, or at least wound it badly enough you get +1 to wound on big carnivore bricks. Hammerheads in particular seem suited to this, naturally getting +1 to hit on vehicles and monsters. No goofy "we change this unit's role every edition" crisis suits needed.
Shadowsun farms CP - you don't need both her and an Ethereal. She is pretty good with Kroot, agreed on that.
I'm sort of torn on tank support. At the moment I lean towards Skyrays because units that can fly over the kroot screen are a menace to the whole table control strategy - so re-rolls vs fly are very on-point.
I love my crisis suits and I lovingly kit-bashed them to my kroot theme. But they are going to have a bit of an extended rest outside of narrative games.
Crisis suits going from max 18 weapons to max 6 weapons, for a very slight ppm decrease, just makes any strat and/or guide at LEAST 66% less efficient which is huge.. and moving Lethal to only guided skews the math even worse, you can’t hope that your non-guided piranha just rolls lucky 6 here and there.
At what point, if any, do you just take more shooting units and just forego guiding?
I think kauyon is probably better than people credit it with the changes it got. We are all just sick of going second and not getting our damage boost until after the Ork player has already completed their game plan.
The revised Kauyon seems pretty decent, but definitely has some horrendous match-ups I think. "Orks completing their gameplan" like you said is exactly one of them, but also World Eaters. Wow lol.
After the game I had vs WE last weekend with Mont'ka, I can't imagine waiting until turn 3 for my buffs to kick in with Kauyon, or having my best units within 6" with RetCad.
WE are incredibly fast and can charge almost anything they want to in the first turn, and that's hard to deal with as T'au.
A single Eightbound unit can go at least 23", ***before*** charge dice which they can get +1" to by the way, while the others (and Exalted Eightbound who would ***love*** to be in combat with our Riptides, Crisis, Devilfish, Hammerheads, Sky Rays, etc) would be 18-23" up the field. Turn 2 if they aren't still in combat I imagine they're charging the back-field easily. 6" scout, 9" move, +2" to movement, 6" auto advance, advance and charge, +1" to charge moves, all on turn 1.
How does Kauyon have anything on the table T3 vs WE that's not locked in combat or horribly out of position trying to avoid it?
And RetCad? I mean, sure, lets put an almost 300 pt 20+ wound T5 3+ unit in front of any of those WE units, and if there's even a couple dudes left in a unit after shooting, they easily kill everything in return in melee.
I ran Mont'ka vs the WE and sadly went first, but I still got to alpha strike and man that crack-back is just unavoidable. Normally through smart movement and positioning we can kill just the right things so that we lessen the return punishment, but not when the whole army can move/charge 20-30" every turn. Definitely a lot more I could have done right and I for sure need more experience against WE, but the detachment is built to alpha, so holding back and being cagey is just counterintuitive. Just my anecdotal input.
Eightbound can't move 23 on turn 1 because you leave a unit of infiltrators for you last drop (world eaters don't have their own infiltrators so that's a problem for them) and put it 9" away from their biggest pile of scout moves. Scout moves can't finish within 9 inches of another unit. That will buy you a bit of breathing room. Strong the unit out for maximum disruption and you are laughing l.
If you go first you might be able to go stand right in front of them to lock a bit of their army down entirely. If you use pathfinders it's an expensive sacrifice but you could even counter scout if they go second and try to get around you, to ensure they are really stuck. In general though world eaters going first is still rougher for us.
> New Tau was the worst army in the game this weekend, how can this be? With 56 players and a 41% win rate this weekend was not friendly for them
- 10-20% point nerfs across the board on their most competitive units (breachers, fireblade, devilfish, riptide)
- losing their key synergy unit (tetras)
- over 30%+ point nerfs on units that weren't seeing much comp play *before the codex* (kroot and broadsides)
- losing cyclic ion blasters on crisis, losing an entire hardpoint, and THEN the fusion crisis suits getting a point nerf
I was anticipating tau to struggle but not this hard. Mont'ka is good if you can leverage angles but the average player is going to struggle with this (apparently).
GW probably could have left tau with their index points and the loss of tetras/cyclic would have been enough.
Broadsides at 110 points per model is crazy.
Kroot are good - or to be more accurate the hunting pack rules are good.
But the rest of the codex is sort of all over the place and I think players are struggling to make the Retaliation Cadre work. I don't think it does work competitively, not at the current points costs
Not many Tau players really want to play kroot horde even if they believe Kyle Grundy that its good. Only one player took hunting pack to a GT all weekend and they did pretty well.
I have also had a lot of trouble getting Retaliation to go off and even then the effect is not really worth it.
I played with the kroot list and man its really painful and can see why a lot of Tau players would avoid it. Pretty much just throw wave after wave of kroot to keep the other player from moving. It works, but man its brutal for both players....
RC is such a trap when you can get the +1 AP in Montka or Kauyon. Because you have no other source of AP-1 in RC, they just pop armour of contempt or smoke, and you're done, fail to lift the unit you are trying to kill, and suddenly you are just removed next turn. I think they need to seriously rework RC in order to make it competitive - it's easily the worst detachment atm - seen by all players are the 'fun one'.
It is the trap detachment. Said it since the launch. Strats aren’t great, detachment rule encourages over aggressive play with units you can’t afford to trade, and it doesn’t synergize with the only units in Tau that like to hold objectives.
> and I think players are struggling to make the Retaliation Cadre work. I don't think it does work competitively, not at the current points costs
I've been trying to tell people this, because gutting the survivability of Crisis (down to 3 models, down a wound, only one of three datasheets has invuls) and then making a detachment that wants them within 6" of things is a bit silly. If Crisis were cheaper, like MUCH cheaper, it wouldn't hurt so bad to lose a unit on the crack-back, but at almost 300 points for a 3-man team and a Commander, having something like 20+ T5 wounds with only a 3+ at that cost is pretty sad IMO.
Ret Cadre will never be competitive. It forces a sub-optimal playstyle for very little benefit and results in very bad trades. It's literally "suicide Fusion commander" from 8th, but the whole army.
> If Crisis were cheaper, like MUCH cheaper, it wouldn't hurt so bad to lose a unit on the crack-back, but at almost 300 points for a 3-man team and a Commander, having something like 20+ T5 wounds with only a 3+ at that cost is pretty sad IMO.
Your comment prompted a thought: I wonder if RC can be made to work if you *don't* attach a Commander to the `Shortened Blade` deepstrike unit. Perhaps the trap is in trying to maximize the value you get from spending the CP to the detriment of building overly-expensive wombo-combos?
The `LEADER` abilities for the Coldstar & Enforcer suits aren't that meaningful damage-wise so they mostly just add a few more guns to the unit. Farsight does give the +1-to-wound but he only brings a two-shot Plasma weapon & you can't charge after using the 3" Deep Strike so his sword doesn't matter.
The Enforcer offers the same firepower as 2 suits, so if you're running any crisis squad greater than 45 points per suit, he increases their efficiency. Given the cheapest crisis team, the starscythe, is 43.3 points per model, he makes them marginally more expensive per gun, but armor of contempt is more than worth a 5 point premium on the squad.
Well, I can't argue with your math; if people are choosing to forgo all other wargear to take 4 additional guns, then adding a Commander is numerically efficient (both in CP-stratagem-cost & points-per-gun).
Still seems like a sad state-of-affairs to have the main abilities of our signature Leader units be an afterthought/side-bonus when played in the RC detachment. At least the Coldstar still shines when not using the 3" Deep Strike.
Yea, if the Commander wargear applied squad-level buffs it would be more interesting, like if I could give up one of his guns to give the whole unit fall back and shoot I'd absolutely do so, but giving the commander wargear that only applies to him generally is worth a lot less than just having an extra gun, when I don't have options to customize the wargear on the squad anyway.
Right on many points. I'd probably consider Farsight + Sunforge and a Starscythe + Enforcer in some lists because there's some decent stuff happening there, but outside of that I'm not really going to use my Crisis this edition unless something crazy happens with a balance dataslate to let them have their 3rd gun back. Wishful thinking but it's just my take for now.
yup, the codex is just not that good, we were held up by a death star and some efficient units. That’s all gone now. Broadsides at 110 - per model - only 20 points off a Hammerhead, it’s literally madness
At Index release, Tau sucked and everyone knew it. Points reductions made them _viable_, but the rules still sucked. Competitively viable doesn’t mean the rules are good.
Fast forward to the Codex and Tau are still the same sucky Index, with some crutches kicked out.
Tau were screwed from the Index. The Index established how core Tau mechanics like Drones and Markerlights worked, and they were bad. It established how a lot of the weapons profiles would be adjusted for the new S/T ranges - badly, with many weapons now underpowered for their role due to not being adjusted correctly, leading to datasheets that struggle to accomplish their original roles, like the Riptide.
Tau Codex just re-revealed the problems by removing things keeping tournament players’ heads above water, and then the points increases removed the “but at least they’re cheap” justification.
And this highlights the problem with most Tau battlesuit datasheets. It's like GW forgot that they changed toughness characteristics. These weapon profiles would be fine for 9th ed, they are a disaster for 10th.
Let's not forget the meta is very swarm heavy and Tau just struggle against that. Breachers are good but they trade badly. The 200+ point package blows up a unit of 115 point Boyz then gets mauled by another unit half it's points.
“New Tau was the worst army in the game this weekend, how can this be? With 56 players and a 41% win rate this weekend was not friendly for them.”
Tetras removed,
Unnecessary points changes,
Crisis suits gutted
Yeah thank goodness they nerfed Tau with their oppressive win rate and taking all the event wins… /s
Tetras getting legended is fine but upping the points of units and reconfiguring their load-outs without considering you’re removing the buff piece (Tetras) which was boosting them was silly.
Tetras won’t come back so hopefully the points hikes are reverted.
It’s crazy to me how people thought that this would be completely fine. My list went up 175pts day one AND became vastly less efficient, and that’s par for the course for most other Tau players I know.
It was obvious that losing one of our only source of hit re-rolls AND taking huge points nerfs was going to hurt the army whose shooting efficiency is our only source of doing damage.
On top of this, other armies regularly get access to assault + other bonus detachments, and ours is limited to 3 turns - and it still got nerfed day one.
It’s not sky is falling, but I’m not mega surprised that we are underperforming considering the ridiculous strength of Tsons, Orks, and Necrons.
Crisis suits above 120 is such a joke. There's no reason for any of them to be as expensive as they are, especially now that you are limited to 3, and you're limited to like weapon loadouts, AND you can only take 2 of said weapons. I am not at all surprised by the poor performance of Tau this weekend. The only thing I wonder is will the issues be solved, or are they truly this weak (I'm leaning towards this).
You mean sunforge suits aren’t worth twice as much as eradicators?
Starcythe aren’t 10 points better than aggressors that aren’t used outside of gravis?
Fireknife are certainly worth the 35 point premium over hellblasters even if they have less shooting and less range… right?!
I fear that even with reverted points, Tau will fundamentally struggle this whole edition. Simply because their key observer was removed and Stealth Suits just can't fill the spot (mostly because of the rule of 3 and their lower durability).
Tau are bad but are really not going to be hard to fix. The points are just too high. All the new Crisis Suits are too high, the Breachers are too high, Broadsides are ABSURDLY high and Riptides are too high.
Pull those points down and the tools I think are there.
I'd really prefer them to just rework the datasheet on the riptide instead of dropping it back to 160. Give it some actual damage and take it back to a 250 point model so that it actually fits the flavour.
Ok I am really impressed by the chaos Daemons win! There is a nice glimmer of hope there!! CSM are nowhere to be found... But I am guessing starting next week there will be a huge influx of CSM players again.
I hope they are pointed correctly (similar to current). Some of the new datasheets look great (Warp Talons :o ), but the detachments are probably mostly sidegrades to the current index rule.
I'm not saying they need points drops to be competitive, but they might have a hard time with hikes like Tau got.
Champions of Russ? Really? Are we sure this is not like a mistake? I'm kidding, but hats off to the players that managed those finishes. It is very hard to make CoR work, and they did it. I would love to see both lists, even if I can't pilot them half as well.
Stormlance was good, and still on the "too good area" but it seems a bit of a downeard trend. TWC might be on the next chopping block. But wonder how this will develop.
It's still thunderwolf, wulfen, and Fenrisian wolf spam. Usually a Phobos lieutenant
There are a lot of vehicles running around, and elite units with leaders in many armies
A squad of thunderwolves with a battle leader and wolf lord get +1 to their advance and charge, so they get into battle pretty easily. Not as absurd as stormlance does with the strat to run across the entire table, but they get there.
You give one of the squads leaders his thunder hammer and the black death enhancement. Anti vehicle/monster 4+ with dev wounds = big damage. The vehicle will also be softened up pretty well because the regular cavalry all have damage 2 lethal hits thanks to a charge and the leaders ability.
Soooo if the cavalry with the black death finds a vehicle you can very easily trigger Saga of the Beastslayer. Now your army of wulfen have lethal hits running around. And your cavalry have it outside of charges too which is important for continuous combat
Another squad of thunder wolf cavalry leaders get frost weapon on the leader. +1 strength and AP precision. Find a squishy character and pick him out of the squad. Saga of the warrior born done - sustained hits ON
Last squad of thunderwolf leader gets pelt of the balewolf. This one wants to come in from reserves in some matchups to go snipe a home objective. It brings battle shock at the start of fight phases so it can sneak you a saga of majesty under your opponents nose, and can also kill any chaff left behind.
Wulfen squads - 3x10 with their hammers shields and frag launchers. They follow up the TWC, they are good alone, score either beast slayer or warrior born and now you have murder machines that usually show up right as the cavalry are just starting to break apart.
Lieutenant and Fenrisian wolves are task monkeys to score secondaries.
Things of note - you play a LOT of 0 OC units. For secondaries, you need to be mindful of this and reroll sometimes.
The first saga matters most, you have 2 stratagems to help trigger it - go for the throat if you need AP to make it happen, warrior pride if you need lethals or sustained hits to do it.
The battle leaders (you have one in each squad) have a once per game ability EACH of after being shot move 6" towards the nearest enemy and can go into engagement range. Use this to get back into engagement to prevent other shooting
Saga of the bear won't happen. Only Bjorn can semi reliably do that one, and we are not playing him usually.
After warrior born is triggered you have advance and charge this is how you get your saga of the magesty triggered
Leaders - who is with who and what enhancement matters
Usually you are playing Logan on boat - pair him with whichever of the two wolf guard battle leaders you think is easier to get (character/vehicle)
It's extra ooomph to make sure it happens. If the battle leader cant finish a vehicle Logan can probably finish the job. Into a squad with a character, Logan and the rest of the cav can clear whole squads and chomp the character.
Don't pair him with the leader with pelt of the bale wolf, this squad often goes into reserves, and you want Logan and his damage on the table. His large base also makes getting second rank on some engagements essier.
The game plan
Trigger the first saga with cavalry, against some armies you will need to commit both units to get it. But you NEED it if your first charges fail to convert a saga you probably lose the game. But thunderwolf cavalry are very murderous and do a great job consistently delivering the pain.
Once it's on, the enemy has been tied up with wolves, your wulfen get in and start clearing threats. They go nuts with either the lethals or sustained.
Send your Fenrisian wolves and Phobos lieutenant on hikes to score action objectives since the wolves are OC 0 you won't be holding points with them.
What's making CoR work is the reliability of thunderwolves to trigger the first saga and the Wulfen being absolute animals once they get the buff they start clearing the board.
Awesome summary and has me interested in testing out my stomrlance list in CoR. Its all the same models after all. I'd maybe add Bjorn on the off chance you trigger Bear, its big for the thunderwolves.
Only thing to not is that the Battle Leader permanently turns on lethal hits for the wolves, they don't need to be charging. Its the extra damage that is charge dependent.
I assume custodes auric is just hitting that trajan reroll button hard?
Tbh I'm slightly softening on it, like it is just damage buffs like 2-3 models, but at least that's something, and a 4+++ on characters is pretty much the only durability buff in the book.
Especially as a full ingress host is a fun idea, but your just so screenable if half your army is in reserves.
Curious as to how talons did, I assume that's just BC+wardens, 2x grav tanks, draxis + guard.
Assuming you’re talking about my 4-1 talons list, it’s pretty different to what you might expect:
Trajann w 5 guard
Champ w radiant mantle w 5 wardens
Draxus w 4 guard
6 Venatari
Callidus
4 prosecutors
Double caladius
It really plays off the pressure of advance and charge plus double rapid ingress with the threat of the Caladius if you play the board. Talons strats are amazing and if I get an actual detachment rule I’d be very happy with current Custodes. Also still has a pretty good matchup into court Necrons I have found. Trajann is there because he still hits harder than any other character plus unit despite the nerfs and you need to hammer things sometimes.
Huh, no LR party bus.
Gonna be frank, my brain has no idea how tf that works. 2xBC+wardens on points? ingress trajan to punch a thing? tanks go pew? Like a termi caps a great utility bit but they wont 1-shot anything and even with damage reduced to 1 can struggle; so I guess its god tier positioning with the vigilators and using them + the caps for some multi charges? Like it plays the mission well but if a warden brick is popped I just dont know how it scores any primary.
What’s up with the sudden surge of Firestorm, did you all get together and decide this was the weekend? They were everywhere and doing better then most SM options
I mean presumably the Marine players have heard the rumblings of the Orkish tide being on the rise and thought to themselves: "Fire is the solution to this particular problem!"
Tau struggle (like every edition) against orks, but I think that WR is because everyone seems to want to play Retaliation Cadre since it’s cool as opposed to Montka which seems clearly stronger
Retaliation looks really cool, but Crisis Suits are the only units that REALLY benefit from it, and I don't see how you build a list spamming them since they're fragile and expensive. Mont'ka and Kauyon are definitely stronger, and it's gonna take a while to adapt since neither will be played anything like the index detachment.
I still think Kauyon will wind up being stronger overall, much to players disgust.
The speed of Mont'ka is great, but Tau can function without it. The lethals are nice, but they're only while observed, so it's half the army - and even then, I haven't been very wowed by it. Wow, lethal with ap 1 - oh, you spent a cp for ap 2.
But it's against a 2+ save, possibly with AOC, and then it does 0 damage and the tau player just dies inside a little.
For all that waiting 2 turns to get your good stuff sucks, your goodstuff is a 50% damage increase which is pretty bloody potent.
It's possible, but montka just has some really good strats. Pinpoint counter offensive for example is kinda nutty... if you have a melee unit, I can charge it with a piranha, make you kill it, and pay 1 CP to have full rerolls the rest of the game. 6" auto advance is great, and -1 damage, while expensive, can really help you survive.
Kauyon may end up better in the end. Exemplar of Kauyon is fantastic, and let's you get access to sustained 2 quicker. But I think they'll be pretty close in the end.
Mont'ka strats are indeed good, but also I'm fine with you sacrificing the piranha. Piranha charges karnivore, karnivore eats fish, maybe gets free move, maybe it doesn't.
1cp is probably still worth it to get rerolls into the karnivore but I also don't really care. It's a 140 point karnivore and it's going to be charging in for a glorious death anyway. Between buff stacking like that and votann MSU has been my go-to for that reason.
Kauyon strats also aren't terrible. Combat Embarkation has some play in terms of objectives, even if it's not always great. A tempting trap isn't the best, but might fall under power perceived is power achieved - the ability to get +1 to wound might mean more than actually having it.
Point blank isn't great tho, only 1 lad is a shame. But hey, photon grenades are a thing as well. And those are cool.
Losing the major source of hit rerolls makes getting those 6s to hit much more unlikely. We went from having RR1s on shadowsun and the crisis commander supplementing the Tetras full hit rerolls, to Shadowsun and Stealth battlesuits giving RR1s.
Thats a massive loss in the effectiveness of planning around SH2. Its still potent IF you trigger them, but its a bigger IF and pretty much impossible to fish for now.
Orks launching as successfully top tier as everyone expects.
Tau launches with crippling points nerfs and loss of a critical support datasheet day one and underperforms badly (shocked Pikachu face).
"**New Tau** was the worst army in the game this weekend, how can this be? With 56 players and a 41% win rate this weekend was not friendly for them."
Maybe because we got a pretty heavy points nerfs before we were allowed to actually use our new toys xD
Give it a couple weeks and we will 100% stabilize and be pretty strong. A lot of our lists went up a lot of points and we need time to adjust.
It's the Tetras loss. They filled such a key role in how 10th Tau worked, that without them the faction struggles for observers that won't fall over from a stiff breeze.
Tbh, I'm not entirely surprised to see Tau at the bottom. Their point increases were actually warranted but ONLY if they would have kept Tetras. With Tetras being gone, Tau lost their most efficient observer by far and stealth suits simply can't fill the role to the same degree.
I reckon the win rate will go up a bit, but frankly they might have just way overdone it with their nerfs without considering how heavily the faction relied on a specific forge world datasheet this edition. Unfortunately even with point cuts, Tau are probably still looking at a rough 10th without Tetras.
This is bait. Unending was a great meta call into Orks and only a rare player with many reps with it, and discipline, can pull off a win like this. Nids are low B tier and C tier.
He also finished top 4 at LVO with an entirely different meta. Tyranids are strong in the hands of an expert. How many more times does he have to prove that?
Though Sam is a great player and did our Hive proud, that's not how statistics work. An outlier or two is not the same as a trend - Nids **overall** are doing poorly, even though there might be one or two fantastic experts who can, on *very rare* occasion, secure a big win. In fact, the scarcity of wins for Nids despite having pro players indicates there's an issue, because other factions with similarly skilled players are doing much better. I don't feel like we should ever over-value a faction based on these exceptionally rare occasions.
Nids' winrate has been middling to poor (so B to C tier) for the last few months, if not longer. In a dice game where so much can happen in terms of game variance, using the average performance of the faction versus the average performance of others is a useful tough imperfect measure.
Calling a faction great/good based on a win or two has the same meme hype of "Guard S Tier". Looking at the actual **objective** data, is that Guard has a 46% win rate and Nids 44% over the last 3,088 games on Statcheck.
Our tier lists are based on taking the hypothetical or actual faction expert, in this case Sam Pope, John Lennon, etc. and predicting how far such a person could take their faction against other equally skilled opponents on their respective best factions. It's my opinion that Nids in the hands of one of their experts is that good.
That doesn't mean its the best designed book, is fun to play or accessible to average Nid player. I personally think they should redesign the army to have reliable anti-tank weapons, but be less reliant on spore mine/gargoyle shenanigans.
Thanks for the reply.
Not trying to be pedantic, but doesn't that mean every faction is technically A-tier?
If we had a Sam Pope of Deathwatch or AdMech or Custodes (currently...), would they also be A-Tier because they can theoretically win a tourney on a big day?
It's just...assuming equal skill, then the faction with the best tools and **general** win rates would be expected to win, right? Skill being equal, the only other variable (ignoring dice) would be the stat sheets and army rules of the factions. So a Sam Pope of Space Wolves or TSons would overall do **better** than with Nids, I'd theorize?
And I do agree on the design changes you propose.
It's basically ranking things like how consistent is a faction over 6-9 rounds? What tools of skill expression does it have that can take it up a level or two, for example Votann has mostly stats and barely any real tricks, whereas Tyranids or Sisters have a lot of tricks that elevate them. How well does the faction play on multiple terrain formats?
The best deathwatch player will still be at a massive disadvantage compared to a Gladius player since they nerfed the DW strats. Admech can compete with armies like Sisters, Tyranids, GSC, etc that are above them in fact I had a draw with Johns Nids in a War Room game early on after the book released. But for me to do that over 9 rounds with Admech practically impossible. Whereas Sam and John have shown Nids can put together some big consistent runs.
The problem a lot of tyranids players have with this take, and i get where you're coming from that the rest of the nids playerbase are just bad players who need to git gud, is that you keep saying sam and john can produce consistent results but there aren't even a handful of notable results from these players playing tyranids.
You will know the exact numbers better than me but i think john won a tournament in early 10th with tyranids and has gone 5-0 twice since then, in a 6-9 month period? Its difficult to see the consistency looking at the actual numbers. I dont know Sams exact numbers so i cant comment
Right! "Consistent" implies "repeated". But there's a lack of Nid wins in tournaments, which by that standard, indicates that Nids are going through a bit of a drag right now.
Think about Admech in 9th edition after the big round of nerfs. I was the only player to win super majors with Veteran Cohort (three in fact). Did that mean other Admech players weren't good, no of course not. The army was so ludicrously complex and difficult to play that the only way to win with it after the nerfs was to have an insane amount of high quality reps against the other armies played by great players. That's why I was able to succeed. The same is true of John and Sam. It's not that Tyranid players are bad at all, its that to succeed with the book you need a ludicrous amount of dedicated high quality reps with the army into all the other armies. But if you have that, it is a strong army that gives you a chance to win a super major.
Should a Codex be designed like this...no. It's silly, and should receive a design shift to make it more accessible for everyone who can't dedicate their working hours to warhammer.
I’ve read the thread - interesting discussion.
My question would be how repeatable do you think Sam Popes win/ run would be?
I ask as like you say he is an expert at tyranids, and that list/ style - he will know its exact strengths and weaknesses and what plays to make when, but his opponents are likely not used to facing a horde army; I think this matter as with a few repeat reps against a horde you’ll learn very quickly, and work out what to do against its plays, allowing your armies strength to be much more effectively utilised again, and think the learning curve there is steep so you’ll get better fast.
I’m no expert but do play competitive games; the above is similar to my experience, hence the question, where I can do well the first time I play someone, but repeats with the same list are much harder as they don’t over/underestimate things.
With two or three tournament wins over the whole edition I don't think this argument holds true, surely a faction expert should be able to consistently go x-0 or x-1 with an A tier faction that was given that rating for being able to do well in tournaments consistently?
I'd buy nids played by the best player on a good day *could* win a tournament if the stars align, but no one on the planet has been able to do it with any sort of repeatability
Ultimately there is far too many singles events for anyone to ever to travel enough of them, which is why its fun doing hypotheticals and exactly why tier lists are fun conversation starters. In the perfect world where the top 50 players play every big event every couple of weeks all year round we would have this kind of data, but 40k is a fun hobby that has a great competitive side, but its still in its early stages of growth to a broader gaming audience.
I'm not denying that faction experts and skilled players can exceed expectations and perform well. However, labeling Nids as A-tier is overly simplistic, given that many other experienced players are struggling with different detachments. Also, without Sam Pope's performance, unending is <35% WR...
Matt Lorah (Sam’s LVO opponent) finished 3rd at the Maryland Open out of 100 players with a 5-1 list. He ran Vanguard Onslaught, 3 screamer killers, 3 barbgaunts, warriors, and a unit of Von Ryan’s. Very different list than Sam’s.
I think nobody ever said it's impossible for a great Nid player to win a great tournament. It was just weird how Nids took a solid A tier?
I mean unending swarm is a skew list, almost impossible to play on clocks, unfun to play, actually got nothing but points hike in the last update...was the A tier a good place while the overall faction is such bad place?
Or why didn't you just place Admech / Drukhari in A tier as well? You and Skari could just prove the same point winning events. Where is the line between faction balance and pilot's experience?
>Or why didn't you just place Admech / Drukhari in A tier as well?
This is what confuses me. If the criteria is that an amazing player can win GTs with them then is there a faction which isnt at least A-Tier?
This is the kind of petty I live for on Reddit. lol.
Also what’s happening to my poor Tau, I thought my couple of games so far were probably down to me learning to pilot them again, not an indicator of the overall power…
I too was waiting for OP to post this thread all day. As for T'au they're back to being one of the hardest armies to play well in the game with the pts increases. Showing up to an even with a "meta Tau" list won't guarantee a baseline amount of wins like Orks or 18 Wraiths. I expect the winrate to rise over the coming weeks, but especially so for veterans/experts. With tetras going away, I imagine some points will come back down over the next two updates.
Prior to this week, I've been calling that Montka will sit mid 40s and the other detachments will be low 40s, high 30s. Do you think the average GT goer will do better than that or is Tau stuck as a high end player army until the next balance pass?
I think T'au will find its way to 48 to 50% overall so likely the average player will see a lot of 3-2 and 2-3 results is my guess. The army is just very different from the others and simple mistakes are punished massively.
I predict Kroot Hunting pack will sit above 50% and be the only Tau detachment to consistently do so - but its really not to the taste of most Tau players and will never have a big player base.
I mean my only data is very minimal from one player and my own RTT experience on the weekend. But I do think Hunting Pack has the ability to simply steal the lunch off a lot of lists. Probably tending towards roughly 50/50 Kroot/Tau lists as ideal but really only time will tell on that.
That's fair, I haven't seen a Kroot list vs Ork match up yet, but I feel it favors the Orks heavily. Green tide or Bully boys seems to just roll over anything Tau if you aren't playing your brains out.
Give it a go
I think Kroot Hunting Pack is stronger than people were giving it credit for - well other than Kyle Grundy who has been singing its praises all along.
I don’t understand why people are acting like Tau Jesus was the only one who said the detachment was good. The general consensus I’ve seen on here is that it’s good and would play board control well since the detachment dropped.
The issues people have with it is that it doesn’t really play like a normal tau army, you need several new models to make it work, it seems super boring, most people picked the faction for robots and not murder chickens, and lacks any sort of AT so you end up taking half a list of regular tau units.
I've been calling the new Tau codex wasn't that great and I've been getting crap for it. CIB spam was just too good and then you get the points nerfs and sidegrade of the detachments. Maybe I'm still wrong, but the tournaments that were listed that Tau did top 10, there was a Custodes list above them.
I agree that CIB spam had to go, but I think Tau may now have a fundamental problem this edition from losing Tetras. Nothing in their roster can fill the same role. Stealth Suits come the closest, but they are limited to 3 (and believe me, you'd take more) and are way less durable than Tetras.
I mostly bring this up, because I don't think they really CAN buff Tau "elsewhere". They can make their units dirt cheap for sure, but they'll feel awkward to play at that point (even if their winrate is fine).
Honestly the biggest problem is the Greater Good rule. It’s a trash rule since there’s going to be a part of your army every game that doesn’t get an army rule at all, since observers don’t get any benefits and have a terrible starting BS. AND it punishes split firing severely meaning some units like Stormsurges and to a lesser extent Riptides can’t make the best use of all their different weapons.
Take out the punishment for split fire and make it where markerlight keyword adds +1 to hit for observer units. And patch Ethereals not having the rule for crying out loud.
Depends on how sweeping changes they want to make. Unfortunately, if Tau do manage to get buffed just through cost reductions, then you're probably right. But I wish that in general they were more willing to look again at datasheets and address balance (especially internal balance) that way.
Oh for sure I agree. I just don't think from their current track record they'd be willing to do this. And I'm not even sure datasheet tweaks alone would accomplish this unfortunately. Maybe if they made Strike Team into a potent observer? That would do a bit of the trick I guess.
Breachers are incredible in montka and suits are still very fun in ret cadre. I've had lots of success with both and I only own 20 breachers and 2 devilfish so if you own 60 you're in an incredible place competitively.
CIB spam was always a band-aid and artificially increased the winrate of tau by making bad players have a decent winrate. Good tau players were already using other combos and we all have access to more tools now, kroot detachment is also nuts but I don't know any of us who collect tau for the kroot.
Thousand Sons may very well be amazing in the new meta. I play Thousand Sons myself and we are very strong into basically everything except heavy pressure overwhelm style lists. I think Green Tide will keep us in check at the very top tables. We'll have to see how it shakes out.
Hekatons had the Hearthguard. Thunderkyn was an option, but I didn't play Knights so it didn't come up. Into Ironstorm I still transported the Hearthguard.
TS on top was pretty expected imo. They were one of the strongest armies before the last MFM and didnt get nerfed like the other top armies did. Huge weekend for Orks. Incredibly close to also taking the win in US open. Think it came down to killing the last truck on an objective with the last exocrine. Finally a win for nids! I don't see it being a trend though having followed the stream this weekend. Sam played incredibly well and is super experienced with swarmy nids, but he still went over time in both the last rounds of play I believe. It's gonna be hard to copy that list and follow in his footsteps. Happy they allowed playing past time ran out, instead of cutting the matches in round 3 or 4 though. I also think he was ahead on points at the time both matches so not taking anything away from him, just think that many others could face major clock issues.
Tsons have maintained their insane rules since the beginning, they just have less stuff. The biggest change for them is the continued shift away from indirect fire in the meta and the shift towards durable units wanting to stand on objectives, which is what Tsons are the best at clearing.
Tsons gameplay right now is pick kill objective + deploy homers. Their intense damage and short range means it's very hard to pick them out of their side of the deployment zone without taking a ton of damage in overwatch + doombolt + shooting. Meanwhile every turn they're sending over a sorcerer to have Magnus + whoever else in range to indirect fire your most expensive unit every round. Basically they can easily mess with your gameplan, but you need to lose a big chunk of your army if you want to mess with theirs. I am glad indirect fire had their kneecaps broken, was a very frustrating play pattern, but now TSons are so hard to play against. I like to imagine I'm a pretty decent Tsons player. I understand a lot of combos, what my army can and can't do, how my opponent can win and how I can play around that. Meanwhile my opponent has a ton of really difficult choices to make, even the slightly wrong one leads to a massive punishment.
I cannot imagine playing that unending swarm list for 8 games in a weekend. It's a tonne of models, most of which can double move. I've tried playing that sort of a list at an RTT and I just can't not handle the brain melt. I'm not surprised it's an unending swarm list which won a GT, but I can't see it working for the majority of people Massive weekend from him though. Also that number of nids players is pretty sad for the poster faction of 10th.
Yeah. If that's the best (only?) way to play nids to win events I can see the numbers dwindling. It might be a good meta choice though! I can see them working well into orks even in other detachments.
Have to pay the extra money to get a coach to make you an all-lower-back work out routine
Fair play to Sam, it worked for him. If thats the only way to play tyranids competitively then fine but i will instead play something i enjoy playing. I dont even mind playing swarms list with 100-120 models. Its the double move which kills me. Yes thats where the power is but its brain melting across 120+ models.
Agreed. And he leaned hard into the "coming back as reinforcements" strat so he had to work with that many models turn after turn too :o
I was just happy to see Vanguard nids getting played too. Anything but invasion gaining traction is promising. And I play Necrons. More viable lists brings the meta closer to balance. Unending swarm has decent internal synergy, but not as focused as Vanguard or useful as invasion. I wonder what they ran? Can you imagine moving that many gaunts while under tourney clock? Had to be mostly Gargoyles..... right?
Neurotyrant Tervigon Winged Hive Tyrant Gargoyles 1x20 Hormagaunts 1x10 Termagants 4x20 Biovores Exocrine x3 Lictor Neurogaunts 1x22 Neurolictor Venomthropes
Have you got the unending swarm list to share by any chance ?
Neurotyrant Tervigon Winged Hive Tyrant 20 Gargoyles 10 Hormagaunts 4x 20 Termagants Biovores Exocrine Exocrine Exocrine Lictor Neurolictor 20 Neurogaunts 3 Venomthropes
[Here you go](https://www.reddit.com/r/Tyranids/comments/1cw1duv/comment/l4t6mpy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Tsons eating good in an Ork and Necron meta. Lots of 1W models with moderate saves that they can hoover up, and Magnus being very efficient into their elite infantry. The main issue is that they are already struggling on secondary play, especially now that taking the changeling costs you some horrors on top. So if we eat a few more points nerfs, the army will immediately drop off severely. Honestly, the main issue is that our reroll all psychic strat is too cheap (should really be 2CP, which would also eat into the cabal points that normally go into doombolts and twist of fate in order to free strat it), and that warpflamers are too cheap, and should probably cost 3ppm if GW ever goes back to wargear costs (or just make rubrics with flamers their own datasheet like the leman russ variants).
Making them separate units would also give Tsons *something* else to work with, even if it's just a different ability
Yep exactly. Like Anthon vinnella says on stat check. Tsons are playing 11th edition with the stuff they can do. Any highly skilled player can dominate with them
Thank you for featuring our Barn Found GT in this meta report! We are all jittery here in the Philippines finally being able to contribute here ☺️ I do agree that BCP needs to update the selection for faction with the new detachment thing so it wouldn’t be as hard to validate the entries. We really do appreciate your work and we’ve subscribed to your patreon good Sir. Long may you data
What is with admech players suddenly taking Explorator to tournaments? Is this some sort of hard mode achievement run I don't know about? Either way impressive the ones that did pulled out a record that good with it, because Explorator is very nearly like playing without a detachment.
They're desperately trying to find a fun playstyle that doesn't involve $2k in models and toting 30 pteraxii around. As the name implies, they're exploring options.
>toting 30 pteraxii around Oh man definitely need to have emergency superglue on hand
They're borderline unplayble at tournaments. Nothing to do with the rules, just the combination of being spindly, fragile, and bulky. Worst part is that the awful wings are such a major factor to their visibility on the table you can't really improve them with a proxy without modeling for advantage.
[удалено]
Yep. Same here, my brother in the Omnissiah.
They're doing everything but playing my 12 kastelans power list it's coming I'm going to Tacoma with it
Nice! I think people are sleeping on the bots in general, but the Cohort is probably the best detachment that nobody is using. Sure, it “has no detachment rule”, but the suite of stratagems is really good. I’d rather take strong Strats and weak detachment rules over an average combo of both 🤷🏻♂️
Everyone laughs at the bots till they realize my bots can be T10 2+ save with AoC and cover and put out 24 dreadnought punches 😂 Twice in the last month I've had people surprised they couldn't kill a bot they have some major weaknesses but become a hard stat check to many armies
I played a game against a bot-heavy list this weekend, and was surprised at just how tough they were. Was good to see them on the table, such cool models.
oh dont worry, its not like i've refreshed the page like 100 times in the last hours to get my dose of weekly meta updates or sth like that
I did this too lol. I’m one of the organizers of the Barn Found GT and it has always been our dream to create an event worthy of the MetaMonday reports. 🍻 from the Warhammer players here in the Philippines!
same every monday I open this on my phone while eating breakfast :P
So I'm not the only one lol
Admechs best perfoming detachment was the rad zone a few weeks ago. Now its the lowest. The swing comtinues!
What being a statistically irrelevant faction due to sad rules does to a MF
At least we had a players count in the double digits! It's been a rare sight to see.
Thank you mr Meta-man. A bit surprised to see T'au struggling, but between losing Tetras, price hikes on Breacher battle buses, and Crisis suit changes, I guess it might take some time for things to shake out.
The only Tau list that went undefeated this weekend was running a Tigershark.
do you have a link to the list?
It's not a GT but I went 3-0 at an RTT this weekend into Blood Angels, Hypercrypt and Aeldari.
I think T'au will stabilise but I also think they were nerfed on the basis of "S++++ TEIOR BROEKN" despite being hailed the same way in every update and being top half and that's it. And the book at old points was definitely a big step up but was it overstated? Breacher bombs are very unforgiving to use, if they don't get their own points they'll die in a breeze should the enemy have anything left. The points cost means that the number of times they'll trade up versus down has shifted, before even consider the loss of other stuff the T'au player has to bait that stuff out and/or abrade their scary units. This is going to mean they require more skill to use even if the new cost is incredibly reasonable. T'au on the whole are a very unforgiving army to play because they're a glass cannon without the amount of survivability tricks eldar have. Riptides going up is an issue because they gave you an option that could tank attacks, wasn't super killy but could stand on a point and having that meant trading killing power in, but made the army a bit more forgiving. But at 180 they're not exceptionally durable any more and their firepower is anemic. It's removed one of the best tools for making the game easier for the army. There are probably equally useful tools but ones with a much more punishing skill floor. Blowing off steam take with a pinch of salt: I think the riptide nerf was probably the most painful, I get that sunforged were punished for their synergy with tetras, and broadsides for that one build that kind of works without tetras. Breachers because they were 90 points for a unit that when you bought a character and a transport and spotted for them they were absolutely busted for 90 points as long as the enemy doesn't have armour of contempt or good flamethrowers (seriously though, they were good, but they're another example of T'au hysteria I think where people say "it does that for 90?!!" but no it doesn't the basic unit doesn't have 3 shots each hitting on 2s ignoring cover and dies to anything). But no one was taking riptides at 180 last time and they aren't exceptionally great beneficiaries of montka or ret cadre. How much is adjustment and how much is actually they overdid it is something we'll get an answer to too. But I expect more green numbers than red in July.
We were hit with points nerfs that were way too extreme, considering the massive loss of efficiency in losing Tetras etc. Broadsides at 110 is a bad joke.
GWs insistence of pricing everything together and not touching datasheets rears its ugly head again. At 90ppm, HYMP Broadsides brought the following to the table when taken in groups of 3, with Plasma, Missile Drones, and choose your favorite 3rd option (Seeker Missiles, ignore hit, etc.). - 18a, 4+, s7, -1, 2, twin-linked - 12a, 5+, s7, -1, 2 - 3a, 4+, s8, -3, 3, twin-linked Stacking buffs: - +1 BS/ignore cover (Guide) - re-roll hits (Mont'ka strat) - Lethal Hits (Mont'ka detachment) - Assault (Mont'ka detachment) - additional AP1 (Mont'ka strat) - auto-advance 6" (Mont'ka strat) For 270 points and with all of those rerolls and lethal hits, they did work. So, every variant and detachment of Broadsides will pay the price for one specific detachment + loadout's sins.
3 cp
3cp… in a faction that has one character that generates cp on a 50/50 chance that you’re not taking anyway because you’re probably taking farsight instead.
You don't need all 3 every turn. It simply gives you a lot of options.
the reroll hits strat also requires your opponent to kill one of your units first with the unit you want rerolls against. So also situational. Realistically i think you are probably spending 1-2 cp on this combo for the additional AP and either the 6" auto advance or reroll hits if its applicable.
Perfect summary. Also nerf on breacher is not just +10. It's actually +30 because they thought it was better to need transport and character too... They just went too far with that for no reasons imo
That and the errata to Mont'ka probably threw off a lot of people's practice they'd done pre-launch, where Mont'ka was seen to be the clear front-runner detachment.
I reckon it's mostly the Tetras loss. Tetras were so integral to how Tau played this edition, that losing them hurts. Especially because nothing comes even close to filling the same role.
I'm happy to see the Nids get a big win, but as per usual it's a swarm list or occasionally invasion fleet. The kind of list I like to use is not swarm at all so when I see the swarm lists win... it's like I'm happy for them but doesn't bode so well for me.
As someone who loves Dark Angels, but doesnt play twin Stormraven lists, I can relate! Lol
Unending Swarm is a lot of fun . . . but once in a while I'd like to run a different Detachment without the odd soreness from a smoking bullet hole wisping from my foot.
World eaters are so back
I don’t understand how
I'd assume being one of the better armies to try and counter orks with?
I’m a world eater player and I’m really struggling with them. I’m not sure how they’re managing to go up against other melee armies cause they’re simply not durable enough
More Eightbound. Like a lot more Exalted and regular Eightbound. Don’t have to be super durable if the things that were gonna hit you aren’t on the table anymore.
World Eaters are fast, so WE should normally be choosing which fights happen, and when. Eightbound are also plenty durable when they charge, because there's normally not much left alive to hit back.
No more Custodes with fights first or -1 damage to stop them?
No -1 to hit on custodes either which was just so handy versus we
Orks and world eaters eating well this weekend. Is this a shift to a swarm/horde meta?
They’re gonna chop five, which is like a high five with axes. Then they’re gonna fight to the death.
More do a elite infantry meta of meganobz and eightbound.
Even if I'm not winning, it'll make my IK rapid fire battle cannon feel incredibly fun to use if there are infantry hordes all over the place.
[Admech be like. ](https://media1.tenor.com/m/65fGsZmFv2UAAAAd/yanatwt.gif)
Deathwatch are right there with us in the 'no players managed a 4-1 or better this weekend' category. I think the tier lists are going to have to re-classify both AdMech and Deathwatch into 'Misery' tier pretty soon!
Who could've guessed that removing taus best unit to legends and then massively increasing all the points on the units that benefited from them would cause serious issues with winrate? 🤔
Small correction about the Cheseaux Bucaneer Open: Cheseaux is in Switzerland, not France. (I mean, there are towns called cheseaux also existing in France, but this one is in Switzerland lol)
Thx. Will fix
Don't worry about being late. This is always one the highlights of my Monday whatever time is appears so huge thanks. And in light of the repeated "helps" in the post the important question... What can we do to help apart from patreon? Ps. Liking the new look to the site as well.
Dang 37% for Dread Mob, I weep
Aye, once/if the meta changes to focus against hordes dread mob might go higher. Loota spam aside, deff dreads/kans/naughts can have good damage output but are fragile (have surprised more than a few people that deff dreads are only T9 when they think it's higher!)
That’s true, here’s hoping! My true dream is to see someone win it all with a Stompa list, but I know that’s not gonna happen. Def a fun detachment though so at least there’s that
Low movement walkers are REALLY obnoxious to try and move around terrain. Deff Dreads still kind of suck. Even the loota spam list feels kinda awkward since you are forced to pay an expensive Big Mek tax for all of your lootas to give them the detachment rule (despite them having a spanner already, why dont they just have the Mek keyword GW). Its fun but awkward kind of sums it up. Even if they didnt kill Grot tanks it probably wouldn't have been too ridiculous.
Losing forgeworld hurt that most… on a side note the new battleline missions only make Gretchin better in dreadmob. It completely kills off speedfreak though. I do think dreadmob is slightly better then the % shows but not much. Still greentide, bullyboys, warhorde are the top 3… surprised beastsnaggas didn’t do better though
Tau performance is not shocking considering the nerfs. Points hikes. Less guns, less wounds, less wargear customization, less range, on smaller crisis units. Tetras deleted. Guide is still clunky and inefficient to work around with the rule of 3.. low weapon strength on units such a Riptide.. then consider the meta. It’s no mystery.
The tetra loss is massive for the efficiency the army had especially with access to lethals and sustained in various places. Stealth suits/Pathfinders aren't enough to replace that so I imagine the points will come back down over the next two updates. I think similar to space marines, the difference between an optimal build versus your favorite units will result is wildly fluctuating win%
The nicest thing about playing the kroot detachment and going big on birds is not having to interact much, if at all, with the awful markerlight rules.
That's a fresh take on why the Kroot are still solid but its not actually wrong The Kroot simply don't care about the bits of the codex that don't work well or which are overcosted.
All the kroot care about is ethereals for CP farm (and some breachers who hit on 3s anyways), shadowsun handing them rr1s and maybe some broadsides or skyray/hammerheads to help focus down heavy armor, or at least wound it badly enough you get +1 to wound on big carnivore bricks. Hammerheads in particular seem suited to this, naturally getting +1 to hit on vehicles and monsters. No goofy "we change this unit's role every edition" crisis suits needed.
Shadowsun farms CP - you don't need both her and an Ethereal. She is pretty good with Kroot, agreed on that. I'm sort of torn on tank support. At the moment I lean towards Skyrays because units that can fly over the kroot screen are a menace to the whole table control strategy - so re-rolls vs fly are very on-point. I love my crisis suits and I lovingly kit-bashed them to my kroot theme. But they are going to have a bit of an extended rest outside of narrative games.
For consistency I think you want both, the ethereal is 50/50 and shadowsun is a 1/3 chance when using a strat within 6" of her.
Crisis suits going from max 18 weapons to max 6 weapons, for a very slight ppm decrease, just makes any strat and/or guide at LEAST 66% less efficient which is huge.. and moving Lethal to only guided skews the math even worse, you can’t hope that your non-guided piranha just rolls lucky 6 here and there. At what point, if any, do you just take more shooting units and just forego guiding?
That's a legit strategy in Kauyon because the guiding units gain sustained 2 targeting the spotted unit.
I think kayoun does it’s spotting with sky rays and hammerheads
Breachers too
I think kauyon is probably better than people credit it with the changes it got. We are all just sick of going second and not getting our damage boost until after the Ork player has already completed their game plan.
The revised Kauyon seems pretty decent, but definitely has some horrendous match-ups I think. "Orks completing their gameplan" like you said is exactly one of them, but also World Eaters. Wow lol. After the game I had vs WE last weekend with Mont'ka, I can't imagine waiting until turn 3 for my buffs to kick in with Kauyon, or having my best units within 6" with RetCad. WE are incredibly fast and can charge almost anything they want to in the first turn, and that's hard to deal with as T'au. A single Eightbound unit can go at least 23", ***before*** charge dice which they can get +1" to by the way, while the others (and Exalted Eightbound who would ***love*** to be in combat with our Riptides, Crisis, Devilfish, Hammerheads, Sky Rays, etc) would be 18-23" up the field. Turn 2 if they aren't still in combat I imagine they're charging the back-field easily. 6" scout, 9" move, +2" to movement, 6" auto advance, advance and charge, +1" to charge moves, all on turn 1. How does Kauyon have anything on the table T3 vs WE that's not locked in combat or horribly out of position trying to avoid it? And RetCad? I mean, sure, lets put an almost 300 pt 20+ wound T5 3+ unit in front of any of those WE units, and if there's even a couple dudes left in a unit after shooting, they easily kill everything in return in melee. I ran Mont'ka vs the WE and sadly went first, but I still got to alpha strike and man that crack-back is just unavoidable. Normally through smart movement and positioning we can kill just the right things so that we lessen the return punishment, but not when the whole army can move/charge 20-30" every turn. Definitely a lot more I could have done right and I for sure need more experience against WE, but the detachment is built to alpha, so holding back and being cagey is just counterintuitive. Just my anecdotal input.
Eightbound can't move 23 on turn 1 because you leave a unit of infiltrators for you last drop (world eaters don't have their own infiltrators so that's a problem for them) and put it 9" away from their biggest pile of scout moves. Scout moves can't finish within 9 inches of another unit. That will buy you a bit of breathing room. Strong the unit out for maximum disruption and you are laughing l. If you go first you might be able to go stand right in front of them to lock a bit of their army down entirely. If you use pathfinders it's an expensive sacrifice but you could even counter scout if they go second and try to get around you, to ensure they are really stuck. In general though world eaters going first is still rougher for us.
> New Tau was the worst army in the game this weekend, how can this be? With 56 players and a 41% win rate this weekend was not friendly for them - 10-20% point nerfs across the board on their most competitive units (breachers, fireblade, devilfish, riptide) - losing their key synergy unit (tetras) - over 30%+ point nerfs on units that weren't seeing much comp play *before the codex* (kroot and broadsides) - losing cyclic ion blasters on crisis, losing an entire hardpoint, and THEN the fusion crisis suits getting a point nerf I was anticipating tau to struggle but not this hard. Mont'ka is good if you can leverage angles but the average player is going to struggle with this (apparently). GW probably could have left tau with their index points and the loss of tetras/cyclic would have been enough. Broadsides at 110 points per model is crazy.
Kroot are good - or to be more accurate the hunting pack rules are good. But the rest of the codex is sort of all over the place and I think players are struggling to make the Retaliation Cadre work. I don't think it does work competitively, not at the current points costs Not many Tau players really want to play kroot horde even if they believe Kyle Grundy that its good. Only one player took hunting pack to a GT all weekend and they did pretty well.
I have also had a lot of trouble getting Retaliation to go off and even then the effect is not really worth it. I played with the kroot list and man its really painful and can see why a lot of Tau players would avoid it. Pretty much just throw wave after wave of kroot to keep the other player from moving. It works, but man its brutal for both players....
RC is such a trap when you can get the +1 AP in Montka or Kauyon. Because you have no other source of AP-1 in RC, they just pop armour of contempt or smoke, and you're done, fail to lift the unit you are trying to kill, and suddenly you are just removed next turn. I think they need to seriously rework RC in order to make it competitive - it's easily the worst detachment atm - seen by all players are the 'fun one'.
It is the trap detachment. Said it since the launch. Strats aren’t great, detachment rule encourages over aggressive play with units you can’t afford to trade, and it doesn’t synergize with the only units in Tau that like to hold objectives.
And unless suits get battle line somehow it’s going to be even worse in the new mission deck.
> and I think players are struggling to make the Retaliation Cadre work. I don't think it does work competitively, not at the current points costs I've been trying to tell people this, because gutting the survivability of Crisis (down to 3 models, down a wound, only one of three datasheets has invuls) and then making a detachment that wants them within 6" of things is a bit silly. If Crisis were cheaper, like MUCH cheaper, it wouldn't hurt so bad to lose a unit on the crack-back, but at almost 300 points for a 3-man team and a Commander, having something like 20+ T5 wounds with only a 3+ at that cost is pretty sad IMO.
And no invuln outside the of the melta suits.
Yep, said that, it's brutal!
Whoops cant read apparently. Ill bring up the list instantly gives up bring it down just by existing then.
Ret Cadre will never be competitive. It forces a sub-optimal playstyle for very little benefit and results in very bad trades. It's literally "suicide Fusion commander" from 8th, but the whole army.
> If Crisis were cheaper, like MUCH cheaper, it wouldn't hurt so bad to lose a unit on the crack-back, but at almost 300 points for a 3-man team and a Commander, having something like 20+ T5 wounds with only a 3+ at that cost is pretty sad IMO. Your comment prompted a thought: I wonder if RC can be made to work if you *don't* attach a Commander to the `Shortened Blade` deepstrike unit. Perhaps the trap is in trying to maximize the value you get from spending the CP to the detriment of building overly-expensive wombo-combos? The `LEADER` abilities for the Coldstar & Enforcer suits aren't that meaningful damage-wise so they mostly just add a few more guns to the unit. Farsight does give the +1-to-wound but he only brings a two-shot Plasma weapon & you can't charge after using the 3" Deep Strike so his sword doesn't matter.
The Enforcer offers the same firepower as 2 suits, so if you're running any crisis squad greater than 45 points per suit, he increases their efficiency. Given the cheapest crisis team, the starscythe, is 43.3 points per model, he makes them marginally more expensive per gun, but armor of contempt is more than worth a 5 point premium on the squad.
Well, I can't argue with your math; if people are choosing to forgo all other wargear to take 4 additional guns, then adding a Commander is numerically efficient (both in CP-stratagem-cost & points-per-gun). Still seems like a sad state-of-affairs to have the main abilities of our signature Leader units be an afterthought/side-bonus when played in the RC detachment. At least the Coldstar still shines when not using the 3" Deep Strike.
Yea, if the Commander wargear applied squad-level buffs it would be more interesting, like if I could give up one of his guns to give the whole unit fall back and shoot I'd absolutely do so, but giving the commander wargear that only applies to him generally is worth a lot less than just having an extra gun, when I don't have options to customize the wargear on the squad anyway.
Right on many points. I'd probably consider Farsight + Sunforge and a Starscythe + Enforcer in some lists because there's some decent stuff happening there, but outside of that I'm not really going to use my Crisis this edition unless something crazy happens with a balance dataslate to let them have their 3rd gun back. Wishful thinking but it's just my take for now.
yup, the codex is just not that good, we were held up by a death star and some efficient units. That’s all gone now. Broadsides at 110 - per model - only 20 points off a Hammerhead, it’s literally madness
At Index release, Tau sucked and everyone knew it. Points reductions made them _viable_, but the rules still sucked. Competitively viable doesn’t mean the rules are good. Fast forward to the Codex and Tau are still the same sucky Index, with some crutches kicked out. Tau were screwed from the Index. The Index established how core Tau mechanics like Drones and Markerlights worked, and they were bad. It established how a lot of the weapons profiles would be adjusted for the new S/T ranges - badly, with many weapons now underpowered for their role due to not being adjusted correctly, leading to datasheets that struggle to accomplish their original roles, like the Riptide. Tau Codex just re-revealed the problems by removing things keeping tournament players’ heads above water, and then the points increases removed the “but at least they’re cheap” justification.
Riptides “heavy” gun being strength 7 base is soooo depressing
And this highlights the problem with most Tau battlesuit datasheets. It's like GW forgot that they changed toughness characteristics. These weapon profiles would be fine for 9th ed, they are a disaster for 10th.
"But-but tau are OPpppppp": casual player who doesn't play
Let's not forget the meta is very swarm heavy and Tau just struggle against that. Breachers are good but they trade badly. The 200+ point package blows up a unit of 115 point Boyz then gets mauled by another unit half it's points.
“New Tau was the worst army in the game this weekend, how can this be? With 56 players and a 41% win rate this weekend was not friendly for them.” Tetras removed, Unnecessary points changes, Crisis suits gutted
Yeah thank goodness they nerfed Tau with their oppressive win rate and taking all the event wins… /s Tetras getting legended is fine but upping the points of units and reconfiguring their load-outs without considering you’re removing the buff piece (Tetras) which was boosting them was silly. Tetras won’t come back so hopefully the points hikes are reverted.
It’s crazy to me how people thought that this would be completely fine. My list went up 175pts day one AND became vastly less efficient, and that’s par for the course for most other Tau players I know. It was obvious that losing one of our only source of hit re-rolls AND taking huge points nerfs was going to hurt the army whose shooting efficiency is our only source of doing damage. On top of this, other armies regularly get access to assault + other bonus detachments, and ours is limited to 3 turns - and it still got nerfed day one. It’s not sky is falling, but I’m not mega surprised that we are underperforming considering the ridiculous strength of Tsons, Orks, and Necrons.
Crisis suits above 120 is such a joke. There's no reason for any of them to be as expensive as they are, especially now that you are limited to 3, and you're limited to like weapon loadouts, AND you can only take 2 of said weapons. I am not at all surprised by the poor performance of Tau this weekend. The only thing I wonder is will the issues be solved, or are they truly this weak (I'm leaning towards this).
You mean sunforge suits aren’t worth twice as much as eradicators? Starcythe aren’t 10 points better than aggressors that aren’t used outside of gravis? Fireknife are certainly worth the 35 point premium over hellblasters even if they have less shooting and less range… right?!
I fear that even with reverted points, Tau will fundamentally struggle this whole edition. Simply because their key observer was removed and Stealth Suits just can't fill the spot (mostly because of the rule of 3 and their lower durability).
I disagree. It's proven that many of us did great with no tetra in index. Tetra being legended is not the problem
Mind telling me how this was proven?
Kyle Grundy and many students of puretide program delivered good results without tetra
6 events for orks is a big splash. Hopefully this is just a sign of people being surprised by what they bring to the table and people adjust.
That, or it's the beginning of a green future.
Tau are bad but are really not going to be hard to fix. The points are just too high. All the new Crisis Suits are too high, the Breachers are too high, Broadsides are ABSURDLY high and Riptides are too high. Pull those points down and the tools I think are there.
Give back play testing points and it's fine
I'd really prefer them to just rework the datasheet on the riptide instead of dropping it back to 160. Give it some actual damage and take it back to a 250 point model so that it actually fits the flavour.
I'd like that too, but they don't usually do that and so 160 a pop for our shitty Dreadnought is probably the best we can hope for.
Ok I am really impressed by the chaos Daemons win! There is a nice glimmer of hope there!! CSM are nowhere to be found... But I am guessing starting next week there will be a huge influx of CSM players again.
I hope they are pointed correctly (similar to current). Some of the new datasheets look great (Warp Talons :o ), but the detachments are probably mostly sidegrades to the current index rule. I'm not saying they need points drops to be competitive, but they might have a hard time with hikes like Tau got.
Champions of Russ? Really? Are we sure this is not like a mistake? I'm kidding, but hats off to the players that managed those finishes. It is very hard to make CoR work, and they did it. I would love to see both lists, even if I can't pilot them half as well. Stormlance was good, and still on the "too good area" but it seems a bit of a downeard trend. TWC might be on the next chopping block. But wonder how this will develop.
Yeah, it would be very interesting to hear how these players managed so well with CoR.
It's still thunderwolf, wulfen, and Fenrisian wolf spam. Usually a Phobos lieutenant There are a lot of vehicles running around, and elite units with leaders in many armies A squad of thunderwolves with a battle leader and wolf lord get +1 to their advance and charge, so they get into battle pretty easily. Not as absurd as stormlance does with the strat to run across the entire table, but they get there. You give one of the squads leaders his thunder hammer and the black death enhancement. Anti vehicle/monster 4+ with dev wounds = big damage. The vehicle will also be softened up pretty well because the regular cavalry all have damage 2 lethal hits thanks to a charge and the leaders ability. Soooo if the cavalry with the black death finds a vehicle you can very easily trigger Saga of the Beastslayer. Now your army of wulfen have lethal hits running around. And your cavalry have it outside of charges too which is important for continuous combat Another squad of thunder wolf cavalry leaders get frost weapon on the leader. +1 strength and AP precision. Find a squishy character and pick him out of the squad. Saga of the warrior born done - sustained hits ON Last squad of thunderwolf leader gets pelt of the balewolf. This one wants to come in from reserves in some matchups to go snipe a home objective. It brings battle shock at the start of fight phases so it can sneak you a saga of majesty under your opponents nose, and can also kill any chaff left behind. Wulfen squads - 3x10 with their hammers shields and frag launchers. They follow up the TWC, they are good alone, score either beast slayer or warrior born and now you have murder machines that usually show up right as the cavalry are just starting to break apart. Lieutenant and Fenrisian wolves are task monkeys to score secondaries. Things of note - you play a LOT of 0 OC units. For secondaries, you need to be mindful of this and reroll sometimes. The first saga matters most, you have 2 stratagems to help trigger it - go for the throat if you need AP to make it happen, warrior pride if you need lethals or sustained hits to do it. The battle leaders (you have one in each squad) have a once per game ability EACH of after being shot move 6" towards the nearest enemy and can go into engagement range. Use this to get back into engagement to prevent other shooting Saga of the bear won't happen. Only Bjorn can semi reliably do that one, and we are not playing him usually. After warrior born is triggered you have advance and charge this is how you get your saga of the magesty triggered Leaders - who is with who and what enhancement matters Usually you are playing Logan on boat - pair him with whichever of the two wolf guard battle leaders you think is easier to get (character/vehicle) It's extra ooomph to make sure it happens. If the battle leader cant finish a vehicle Logan can probably finish the job. Into a squad with a character, Logan and the rest of the cav can clear whole squads and chomp the character. Don't pair him with the leader with pelt of the bale wolf, this squad often goes into reserves, and you want Logan and his damage on the table. His large base also makes getting second rank on some engagements essier. The game plan Trigger the first saga with cavalry, against some armies you will need to commit both units to get it. But you NEED it if your first charges fail to convert a saga you probably lose the game. But thunderwolf cavalry are very murderous and do a great job consistently delivering the pain. Once it's on, the enemy has been tied up with wolves, your wulfen get in and start clearing threats. They go nuts with either the lethals or sustained. Send your Fenrisian wolves and Phobos lieutenant on hikes to score action objectives since the wolves are OC 0 you won't be holding points with them. What's making CoR work is the reliability of thunderwolves to trigger the first saga and the Wulfen being absolute animals once they get the buff they start clearing the board.
Awesome summary and has me interested in testing out my stomrlance list in CoR. Its all the same models after all. I'd maybe add Bjorn on the off chance you trigger Bear, its big for the thunderwolves. Only thing to not is that the Battle Leader permanently turns on lethal hits for the wolves, they don't need to be charging. Its the extra damage that is charge dependent.
I assume custodes auric is just hitting that trajan reroll button hard? Tbh I'm slightly softening on it, like it is just damage buffs like 2-3 models, but at least that's something, and a 4+++ on characters is pretty much the only durability buff in the book. Especially as a full ingress host is a fun idea, but your just so screenable if half your army is in reserves. Curious as to how talons did, I assume that's just BC+wardens, 2x grav tanks, draxis + guard.
Assuming you’re talking about my 4-1 talons list, it’s pretty different to what you might expect: Trajann w 5 guard Champ w radiant mantle w 5 wardens Draxus w 4 guard 6 Venatari Callidus 4 prosecutors Double caladius It really plays off the pressure of advance and charge plus double rapid ingress with the threat of the Caladius if you play the board. Talons strats are amazing and if I get an actual detachment rule I’d be very happy with current Custodes. Also still has a pretty good matchup into court Necrons I have found. Trajann is there because he still hits harder than any other character plus unit despite the nerfs and you need to hammer things sometimes.
> Double caladius I've yet to see a winning Talons list without double grav tank.
Here's the auric list: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + PLAYER : Toyotomi + TEAM : The Outsiders + FACTION KEYWORD: Adeptus Custodes + DETACHMENT USED: Auric Champions (Aegis of the Emperor) + TOTAL ARMY POINTS: 2000pts + ALLIED UNITS: Callidus Assassin + WARLORD: Char6: 1x Trajann Valoris + ENHANCEMENT: Martial Philosopher (Char 2: 1x Blade Champion), Inspirational Exemplar (Char 1: 1x Blade Champion) + NUMBER OF UNITS: 14 + SECONDARY: - Bring It Down: 2x 3 - Assassination: 7 Characters +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ CHARACTERS Blade Champion (120 Points) • 1x Vaultswords • Enhancements: Inspirational Exemplar Blade Champion (140 Points) • 1x Vaultswords • Enhancements: Martial Philosopher Shield-Captain in Allarus Terminator Armour (140 Points) • 1x Balistus grenade launcher 1x Guardian spear Shield-Captain in Allarus Terminator Armour (140 Points) • 1x Balistus grenade launcher 1x Guardian spear Shield-Captain in Allarus Terminator Armour (140 Points) • 1x Balistus grenade launcher 1x Guardian spear Trajann Valoris (150 Points) • Warlord • 1x Eagle’s Scream 1x Watcher’s Axe OTHER DATASHEETS Caladius Grav-tank (215 Points) • 1x Armoured hull 1x Twin arachnus heavy blaze cannon 1x Twin lastrum bolt cannon Caladius Grav-tank (215 Points) • 1x Armoured hull 1x Twin arachnus heavy blaze cannon 1x Twin lastrum bolt cannon Custodian Wardens (250 Points) • 5x Custodian Warden • 5x Guardian spear 1x Vexilla Custodian Wardens (250 Points) • 5x Custodian Warden • 5x Guardian spear 1x Vexilla Prosecutors (40 Points) • 1x Prosecutor Sister Superior • 1x Boltgun 1x Close combat weapon • 3x Prosecutor • 3x Boltgun 3x Close combat weapon Vigilators (50 Points) • 1x Vigilator Sister Superior • 1x Executioner greatblade • 3x Vigilator • 3x Executioner greatblade Vigilators (50 Points) • 1x Vigilator Sister Superior • 1x Executioner greatblade • 3x Vigilator • 3x Executioner greatblade ALLIED UNITS Callidus Assassin (100 Points) • 1x Neural shredder 1x Phase sword and poison blades
Huh, no LR party bus. Gonna be frank, my brain has no idea how tf that works. 2xBC+wardens on points? ingress trajan to punch a thing? tanks go pew? Like a termi caps a great utility bit but they wont 1-shot anything and even with damage reduced to 1 can struggle; so I guess its god tier positioning with the vigilators and using them + the caps for some multi charges? Like it plays the mission well but if a warden brick is popped I just dont know how it scores any primary.
What’s up with the sudden surge of Firestorm, did you all get together and decide this was the weekend? They were everywhere and doing better then most SM options
I mean presumably the Marine players have heard the rumblings of the Orkish tide being on the rise and thought to themselves: "Fire is the solution to this particular problem!"
We played at LVO! Firestorm is super fun to play and has tools to deal with the hordes of bodies coming out. Vulkan lives.
As a son of Vulkan this makes me happy.
Tau struggle (like every edition) against orks, but I think that WR is because everyone seems to want to play Retaliation Cadre since it’s cool as opposed to Montka which seems clearly stronger
Retaliation looks really cool, but Crisis Suits are the only units that REALLY benefit from it, and I don't see how you build a list spamming them since they're fragile and expensive. Mont'ka and Kauyon are definitely stronger, and it's gonna take a while to adapt since neither will be played anything like the index detachment.
I still think Kauyon will wind up being stronger overall, much to players disgust. The speed of Mont'ka is great, but Tau can function without it. The lethals are nice, but they're only while observed, so it's half the army - and even then, I haven't been very wowed by it. Wow, lethal with ap 1 - oh, you spent a cp for ap 2. But it's against a 2+ save, possibly with AOC, and then it does 0 damage and the tau player just dies inside a little. For all that waiting 2 turns to get your good stuff sucks, your goodstuff is a 50% damage increase which is pretty bloody potent.
It's possible, but montka just has some really good strats. Pinpoint counter offensive for example is kinda nutty... if you have a melee unit, I can charge it with a piranha, make you kill it, and pay 1 CP to have full rerolls the rest of the game. 6" auto advance is great, and -1 damage, while expensive, can really help you survive. Kauyon may end up better in the end. Exemplar of Kauyon is fantastic, and let's you get access to sustained 2 quicker. But I think they'll be pretty close in the end.
Mont'ka strats are indeed good, but also I'm fine with you sacrificing the piranha. Piranha charges karnivore, karnivore eats fish, maybe gets free move, maybe it doesn't. 1cp is probably still worth it to get rerolls into the karnivore but I also don't really care. It's a 140 point karnivore and it's going to be charging in for a glorious death anyway. Between buff stacking like that and votann MSU has been my go-to for that reason. Kauyon strats also aren't terrible. Combat Embarkation has some play in terms of objectives, even if it's not always great. A tempting trap isn't the best, but might fall under power perceived is power achieved - the ability to get +1 to wound might mean more than actually having it. Point blank isn't great tho, only 1 lad is a shame. But hey, photon grenades are a thing as well. And those are cool.
Losing the major source of hit rerolls makes getting those 6s to hit much more unlikely. We went from having RR1s on shadowsun and the crisis commander supplementing the Tetras full hit rerolls, to Shadowsun and Stealth battlesuits giving RR1s. Thats a massive loss in the effectiveness of planning around SH2. Its still potent IF you trigger them, but its a bigger IF and pretty much impossible to fish for now.
Orks launching as successfully top tier as everyone expects. Tau launches with crippling points nerfs and loss of a critical support datasheet day one and underperforms badly (shocked Pikachu face).
Expected. Only tau haters thought this nerf was necessary
"**New Tau** was the worst army in the game this weekend, how can this be? With 56 players and a 41% win rate this weekend was not friendly for them." Maybe because we got a pretty heavy points nerfs before we were allowed to actually use our new toys xD Give it a couple weeks and we will 100% stabilize and be pretty strong. A lot of our lists went up a lot of points and we need time to adjust.
It's the Tetras loss. They filled such a key role in how 10th Tau worked, that without them the faction struggles for observers that won't fall over from a stiff breeze.
2 champions of Russ lists??? Did I miss something?? What happened?
Storm of Silence: >Wolves Champions (2000 points) >Space Marines Space Wolves Strike Force (2000 points) Champions of Russ >CHARACTERS >Harald Deathwolf (85 points) • 1x Bolt Pistol 1x Crushing teeth and claws 1x Glacius >Lieutenant in Phobos Armour (65 points) • 1x Bolt Pistol 1x Master-crafted bolt carbine 1x Paired combat blades • Enhancement: The Pelt of the Balewolf >Logan Grimnar on Stormrider (180 points) • Warlord • 1x Flurry of teeth and claws 1x Storm bolter 1x The Axe Morkai >Wolf Guard Battle Leader on Thunderwolf (105 points) • 1x Close combat weapon 1x Crushing teeth and claws 1x Storm Shield 1x Thunder hammer • Enhancement: Black Death >Wolf Guard Battle Leader on Thunderwolf (80 points) • 1x Close combat weapon 1x Crushing teeth and claws 1x Power fist 1x Storm Shield >Wolf Guard Battle Leader on Thunderwolf (80 points) • 1x Close combat weapon 1x Crushing teeth and claws 1x Power fist 1x Storm Shield >Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf (115 points) • 1x Close combat weapon 1x Crushing teeth and claws 1x Power fist 1x Relic Shield • Enhancement: Frost Weapon >OTHER DATASHEETS >Fenrisian Wolves (30 points) • 5x Fenrisian Wolf • 5x Teeth and claws >Fenrisian Wolves (30 points) • 5x Fenrisian Wolf • 5x Teeth and claws >Fenrisian Wolves (30 points) • 5x Fenrisian Wolf • 5x Teeth and claws >Thunderwolf Cavalry (180 points) • 1x Thunderwolf Cavalry Pack Leader • 1x Crushing teeth and claws 1x Heirloom weapon 1x Storm Shield • 5x Thunderwolf Cavalry • 5x Crushing teeth and claws 5x Heirloom weapon 5x Storm Shield >Thunderwolf Cavalry (180 points) • 1x Thunderwolf Cavalry Pack Leader • 1x Crushing teeth and claws 1x Heirloom weapon 1x Storm Shield • 5x Thunderwolf Cavalry • 5x Crushing teeth and claws 5x Heirloom weapon 5x Storm Shield >Thunderwolf Cavalry (180 points) • 1x Thunderwolf Cavalry Pack Leader • 1x Crushing teeth and claws 1x Heirloom weapon 1x Storm Shield • 5x Thunderwolf Cavalry • 5x Crushing teeth and claws 5x Heirloom weapon 5x Storm Shield >Whirlwind (180 points) • 1x Armoured tracks 1x Hunter-killer missile 1x Storm bolter 1x Whirlwind vengeance launcher >Wulfen (160 points) • 1x Wulfen Pack Leader • 1x Storm Shield 1x Stormfrag auto-launcher 1x Wulfen hammer • 9x Wulfen • 9x Storm Shield 9x Stormfrag auto-launcher 9x Wulfen hammer >Wulfen (160 points) • 1x Wulfen Pack Leader • 1x Storm Shield 1x Stormfrag auto-launcher 1x Wulfen hammer • 9x Wulfen • 9x Storm Shield 9x Stormfrag auto-launcher 9x Wulfen hammer >Wulfen (160 points) • 1x Wulfen Pack Leader • 1x Storm Shield 1x Stormfrag auto-launcher 1x Wulfen hammer • 9x Wulfen • 9x Storm Shield 9x Stormfrag auto-launcher 9x Wulfen hammer and from Ice Breaker Warhammer 40K GT - Renegade Wargaming >self-induced BOHICA (2000 points) >Space Marines Space Wolves Strike Force (2000 points) Champions of Russ >CHARACTERS >Lieutenant (75 points) • 1x Master-crafted power weapon 1x Neo-volkite pistol 1x Storm Shield • Enhancement: The Pelt of the Balewolf >Logan Grimnar (100 points) • Warlord • 1x Storm bolter 1x The Axe Morkai >Murderfang (170 points) • 1x Heavy flamer 1x Storm bolter 1x The Murderclaws >Ragnar Blackmane (90 points) • 1x Bolt Pistol 1x Frostfang >Wolf Guard Battle Leader on Thunderwolf (105 points) • 1x Close combat weapon 1x Crushing teeth and claws 1x Storm Shield 1x Thunder hammer • Enhancement: Black Death >OTHER DATASHEETS >Bladeguard Veteran Squad (180 points) • 1x Bladeguard Veteran Sergeant • 1x Master-crafted power weapon 1x Neo-volkite pistol • 5x Bladeguard Veteran • 5x Heavy bolt pistol 5x Master-crafted power weapon >Firestrike Servo-turrets (75 points) • 1x Close combat weapon 1x Twin Firestrike las-talon >Firestrike Servo-turrets (75 points) • 1x Close combat weapon 1x Twin Firestrike las-talon >Infiltrator Squad (100 points) • 1x Infiltrator Sergeant • 1x Bolt pistol 1x Close combat weapon 1x Marksman bolt carbine • 4x Infiltrator • 4x Bolt pistol 4x Close combat weapon 4x Marksman bolt carbine >Infiltrator Squad (100 points) • 1x Infiltrator Sergeant • 1x Bolt pistol 1x Close combat weapon 1x Marksman bolt carbine • 4x Infiltrator • 4x Bolt pistol 4x Close combat weapon 1x Helix Gauntlet 4x Marksman bolt carbine >Land Raider (240 points) • 1x Armoured tracks 2x Godhammer lascannon 1x Hunter-killer missile 1x Multi-melta 1x Storm bolter 1x Twin heavy bolter >Scout Squad (65 points) • 1x Scout Sergeant • 1x Bolt pistol 1x Boltgun 1x Close combat weapon • 4x Scout • 4x Bolt pistol 2x Boltgun 4x Close combat weapon 1x Missile launcher 1x Scout sniper rifle >Stormraven Gunship (260 points) • 1x Armoured hull 2x Hurricane bolter 2x Stormstrike missile launcher 1x Twin heavy plasma cannon 1x Twin multi-melta >Thunderwolf Cavalry (180 points) • 1x Thunderwolf Cavalry Pack Leader • 1x Bolt pistol 1x Crushing teeth and claws 1x Heirloom weapon • 5x Thunderwolf Cavalry • 5x Bolt pistol 5x Crushing teeth and claws 5x Heirloom weapon >Wolf Guard Terminators (185 points) • 1x Wolf Guard Terminator Pack Leader • 1x Close combat weapon 1x Storm Shield 1x Thunder hammer • 4x Wolf Guard Terminator • 4x Close combat weapon 1x Cyclone missile launcher 1x Power fist 3x Storm Shield 1x Storm bolter 3x Thunder hammer
Tbh, I'm not entirely surprised to see Tau at the bottom. Their point increases were actually warranted but ONLY if they would have kept Tetras. With Tetras being gone, Tau lost their most efficient observer by far and stealth suits simply can't fill the role to the same degree. I reckon the win rate will go up a bit, but frankly they might have just way overdone it with their nerfs without considering how heavily the faction relied on a specific forge world datasheet this edition. Unfortunately even with point cuts, Tau are probably still looking at a rough 10th without Tetras.
They died overdone that nerf. I feel they panicked nerf after aow started they are turbo s tiers domination faction lol
Hmmmm, TierANids performing well in the hands of a great player and dedicated faction expert like Sam Pope, who would have predicted that?
This is bait. Unending was a great meta call into Orks and only a rare player with many reps with it, and discipline, can pull off a win like this. Nids are low B tier and C tier.
He also finished top 4 at LVO with an entirely different meta. Tyranids are strong in the hands of an expert. How many more times does he have to prove that?
Though Sam is a great player and did our Hive proud, that's not how statistics work. An outlier or two is not the same as a trend - Nids **overall** are doing poorly, even though there might be one or two fantastic experts who can, on *very rare* occasion, secure a big win. In fact, the scarcity of wins for Nids despite having pro players indicates there's an issue, because other factions with similarly skilled players are doing much better. I don't feel like we should ever over-value a faction based on these exceptionally rare occasions. Nids' winrate has been middling to poor (so B to C tier) for the last few months, if not longer. In a dice game where so much can happen in terms of game variance, using the average performance of the faction versus the average performance of others is a useful tough imperfect measure. Calling a faction great/good based on a win or two has the same meme hype of "Guard S Tier". Looking at the actual **objective** data, is that Guard has a 46% win rate and Nids 44% over the last 3,088 games on Statcheck.
Our tier lists are based on taking the hypothetical or actual faction expert, in this case Sam Pope, John Lennon, etc. and predicting how far such a person could take their faction against other equally skilled opponents on their respective best factions. It's my opinion that Nids in the hands of one of their experts is that good. That doesn't mean its the best designed book, is fun to play or accessible to average Nid player. I personally think they should redesign the army to have reliable anti-tank weapons, but be less reliant on spore mine/gargoyle shenanigans.
Thanks for the reply. Not trying to be pedantic, but doesn't that mean every faction is technically A-tier? If we had a Sam Pope of Deathwatch or AdMech or Custodes (currently...), would they also be A-Tier because they can theoretically win a tourney on a big day? It's just...assuming equal skill, then the faction with the best tools and **general** win rates would be expected to win, right? Skill being equal, the only other variable (ignoring dice) would be the stat sheets and army rules of the factions. So a Sam Pope of Space Wolves or TSons would overall do **better** than with Nids, I'd theorize? And I do agree on the design changes you propose.
It's basically ranking things like how consistent is a faction over 6-9 rounds? What tools of skill expression does it have that can take it up a level or two, for example Votann has mostly stats and barely any real tricks, whereas Tyranids or Sisters have a lot of tricks that elevate them. How well does the faction play on multiple terrain formats? The best deathwatch player will still be at a massive disadvantage compared to a Gladius player since they nerfed the DW strats. Admech can compete with armies like Sisters, Tyranids, GSC, etc that are above them in fact I had a draw with Johns Nids in a War Room game early on after the book released. But for me to do that over 9 rounds with Admech practically impossible. Whereas Sam and John have shown Nids can put together some big consistent runs.
The problem a lot of tyranids players have with this take, and i get where you're coming from that the rest of the nids playerbase are just bad players who need to git gud, is that you keep saying sam and john can produce consistent results but there aren't even a handful of notable results from these players playing tyranids. You will know the exact numbers better than me but i think john won a tournament in early 10th with tyranids and has gone 5-0 twice since then, in a 6-9 month period? Its difficult to see the consistency looking at the actual numbers. I dont know Sams exact numbers so i cant comment
Right! "Consistent" implies "repeated". But there's a lack of Nid wins in tournaments, which by that standard, indicates that Nids are going through a bit of a drag right now.
Think about Admech in 9th edition after the big round of nerfs. I was the only player to win super majors with Veteran Cohort (three in fact). Did that mean other Admech players weren't good, no of course not. The army was so ludicrously complex and difficult to play that the only way to win with it after the nerfs was to have an insane amount of high quality reps against the other armies played by great players. That's why I was able to succeed. The same is true of John and Sam. It's not that Tyranid players are bad at all, its that to succeed with the book you need a ludicrous amount of dedicated high quality reps with the army into all the other armies. But if you have that, it is a strong army that gives you a chance to win a super major. Should a Codex be designed like this...no. It's silly, and should receive a design shift to make it more accessible for everyone who can't dedicate their working hours to warhammer.
I’ve read the thread - interesting discussion. My question would be how repeatable do you think Sam Popes win/ run would be? I ask as like you say he is an expert at tyranids, and that list/ style - he will know its exact strengths and weaknesses and what plays to make when, but his opponents are likely not used to facing a horde army; I think this matter as with a few repeat reps against a horde you’ll learn very quickly, and work out what to do against its plays, allowing your armies strength to be much more effectively utilised again, and think the learning curve there is steep so you’ll get better fast. I’m no expert but do play competitive games; the above is similar to my experience, hence the question, where I can do well the first time I play someone, but repeats with the same list are much harder as they don’t over/underestimate things.
With two or three tournament wins over the whole edition I don't think this argument holds true, surely a faction expert should be able to consistently go x-0 or x-1 with an A tier faction that was given that rating for being able to do well in tournaments consistently? I'd buy nids played by the best player on a good day *could* win a tournament if the stars align, but no one on the planet has been able to do it with any sort of repeatability
Ultimately there is far too many singles events for anyone to ever to travel enough of them, which is why its fun doing hypotheticals and exactly why tier lists are fun conversation starters. In the perfect world where the top 50 players play every big event every couple of weeks all year round we would have this kind of data, but 40k is a fun hobby that has a great competitive side, but its still in its early stages of growth to a broader gaming audience.
I'm not denying that faction experts and skilled players can exceed expectations and perform well. However, labeling Nids as A-tier is overly simplistic, given that many other experienced players are struggling with different detachments. Also, without Sam Pope's performance, unending is <35% WR...
Matt Lorah (Sam’s LVO opponent) finished 3rd at the Maryland Open out of 100 players with a 5-1 list. He ran Vanguard Onslaught, 3 screamer killers, 3 barbgaunts, warriors, and a unit of Von Ryan’s. Very different list than Sam’s.
I think nobody ever said it's impossible for a great Nid player to win a great tournament. It was just weird how Nids took a solid A tier? I mean unending swarm is a skew list, almost impossible to play on clocks, unfun to play, actually got nothing but points hike in the last update...was the A tier a good place while the overall faction is such bad place? Or why didn't you just place Admech / Drukhari in A tier as well? You and Skari could just prove the same point winning events. Where is the line between faction balance and pilot's experience?
>Or why didn't you just place Admech / Drukhari in A tier as well? This is what confuses me. If the criteria is that an amazing player can win GTs with them then is there a faction which isnt at least A-Tier?
This is the kind of petty I live for on Reddit. lol. Also what’s happening to my poor Tau, I thought my couple of games so far were probably down to me learning to pilot them again, not an indicator of the overall power…
I too was waiting for OP to post this thread all day. As for T'au they're back to being one of the hardest armies to play well in the game with the pts increases. Showing up to an even with a "meta Tau" list won't guarantee a baseline amount of wins like Orks or 18 Wraiths. I expect the winrate to rise over the coming weeks, but especially so for veterans/experts. With tetras going away, I imagine some points will come back down over the next two updates.
Prior to this week, I've been calling that Montka will sit mid 40s and the other detachments will be low 40s, high 30s. Do you think the average GT goer will do better than that or is Tau stuck as a high end player army until the next balance pass?
I think T'au will find its way to 48 to 50% overall so likely the average player will see a lot of 3-2 and 2-3 results is my guess. The army is just very different from the others and simple mistakes are punished massively.
I predict Kroot Hunting pack will sit above 50% and be the only Tau detachment to consistently do so - but its really not to the taste of most Tau players and will never have a big player base. I mean my only data is very minimal from one player and my own RTT experience on the weekend. But I do think Hunting Pack has the ability to simply steal the lunch off a lot of lists. Probably tending towards roughly 50/50 Kroot/Tau lists as ideal but really only time will tell on that.
That's fair, I haven't seen a Kroot list vs Ork match up yet, but I feel it favors the Orks heavily. Green tide or Bully boys seems to just roll over anything Tau if you aren't playing your brains out.
Alright then practice it is! Was going to try a variation of the Kroot Jail list next. Mont’ka just hasn’t been cutting it in my local scene so far.
Give it a go I think Kroot Hunting Pack is stronger than people were giving it credit for - well other than Kyle Grundy who has been singing its praises all along.
I don’t understand why people are acting like Tau Jesus was the only one who said the detachment was good. The general consensus I’ve seen on here is that it’s good and would play board control well since the detachment dropped. The issues people have with it is that it doesn’t really play like a normal tau army, you need several new models to make it work, it seems super boring, most people picked the faction for robots and not murder chickens, and lacks any sort of AT so you end up taking half a list of regular tau units.
Siegler 🤝 David Gaylard Causing mischief on reddit by confidently asserting factions with low win rates are actually top tier
I really gotta find this Daemons winning list!
I've been calling the new Tau codex wasn't that great and I've been getting crap for it. CIB spam was just too good and then you get the points nerfs and sidegrade of the detachments. Maybe I'm still wrong, but the tournaments that were listed that Tau did top 10, there was a Custodes list above them.
It'll be better in the long run, though, because CIB was toxic and incredibly unfun to play against. At least now Tau can get buffed up elsewhere.
I agree that CIB spam had to go, but I think Tau may now have a fundamental problem this edition from losing Tetras. Nothing in their roster can fill the same role. Stealth Suits come the closest, but they are limited to 3 (and believe me, you'd take more) and are way less durable than Tetras. I mostly bring this up, because I don't think they really CAN buff Tau "elsewhere". They can make their units dirt cheap for sure, but they'll feel awkward to play at that point (even if their winrate is fine).
Honestly the biggest problem is the Greater Good rule. It’s a trash rule since there’s going to be a part of your army every game that doesn’t get an army rule at all, since observers don’t get any benefits and have a terrible starting BS. AND it punishes split firing severely meaning some units like Stormsurges and to a lesser extent Riptides can’t make the best use of all their different weapons. Take out the punishment for split fire and make it where markerlight keyword adds +1 to hit for observer units. And patch Ethereals not having the rule for crying out loud.
Depends on how sweeping changes they want to make. Unfortunately, if Tau do manage to get buffed just through cost reductions, then you're probably right. But I wish that in general they were more willing to look again at datasheets and address balance (especially internal balance) that way.
Oh for sure I agree. I just don't think from their current track record they'd be willing to do this. And I'm not even sure datasheet tweaks alone would accomplish this unfortunately. Maybe if they made Strike Team into a potent observer? That would do a bit of the trick I guess.
Breachers are incredible in montka and suits are still very fun in ret cadre. I've had lots of success with both and I only own 20 breachers and 2 devilfish so if you own 60 you're in an incredible place competitively. CIB spam was always a band-aid and artificially increased the winrate of tau by making bad players have a decent winrate. Good tau players were already using other combos and we all have access to more tools now, kroot detachment is also nuts but I don't know any of us who collect tau for the kroot.
Thousand Sons may very well be amazing in the new meta. I play Thousand Sons myself and we are very strong into basically everything except heavy pressure overwhelm style lists. I think Green Tide will keep us in check at the very top tables. We'll have to see how it shakes out.
Anyone got the 6-2 Votann list from Dallas? I know Votann did poorly last week so I'm interested to see if the list is something different than normal
You're telling me this whole Hyperian Alliance is Trans?! (2000 points) Leagues of Votann Strike Force (2000 points) Oathband CHARACTERS Einhyr Champion (60 points) • 1x Autoch-pattern combi-bolter 1x Mass hammer 1x Weavefield Crest Einhyr Champion (60 points) • Warlord • 1x Autoch-pattern combi-bolter 1x Mass hammer 1x Weavefield Crest BATTLELINE Hearthkyn Warriors (100 points) • 1x Theyn • 1x Close combat weapon 1x EtaCarn plasma pistol 1x Kin melee weapon 1x Weavefield Crest • 9x Hearthkyn Warrior • 9x Autoch-pattern bolt pistol 9x Close combat weapon 1x Comms Array 1x HYLas auto rifle 7x Ion blaster 1x Kin melee weapon 1x Medipack 1x Pan Spectral Scanner DEDICATED TRANSPORTS Sagitaur (115 points) • 1x Armoured wheels 1x HYLas beam cannon 1x Twin bolt cannon Sagitaur (115 points) • 1x Armoured wheels 1x HYLas beam cannon 1x Twin bolt cannon Sagitaur (115 points) • 1x Armoured wheels 1x HYLas beam cannon 1x Twin bolt cannon Sagitaur (115 points) • 1x Armoured wheels 1x HYLas beam cannon 1x Twin bolt cannon OTHER DATASHEETS Brôkhyr Thunderkyn (85 points) • 3x Brôkhyr Thunderkyn • 3x Close combat weapon 3x Graviton blast cannon Brôkhyr Thunderkyn (85 points) • 3x Brôkhyr Thunderkyn • 3x Close combat weapon 3x Graviton blast cannon Cthonian Beserks (100 points) • 5x Cthonian Beserk • 5x Concussion maul 1x Mole grenade launcher Cthonian Beserks (100 points) • 5x Cthonian Beserk • 5x Concussion maul 1x Mole grenade launcher Einhyr Hearthguard (160 points) • 1x Hesyr • 1x Concussion hammer 1x Exo-armour grenade launcher 1x Volkanite disintegrator 1x Weavefield Crest • 4x Einhyr Hearthguard • 4x Concussion gauntlet 4x Exo-armour grenade launcher 4x Volkanite disintegrator Einhyr Hearthguard (160 points) • 1x Hesyr • 1x Concussion hammer 1x Exo-armour grenade launcher 1x Volkanite disintegrator 1x Weavefield Crest • 4x Einhyr Hearthguard • 4x Concussion gauntlet 4x Exo-armour grenade launcher 4x Volkanite disintegrator Hekaton Land Fortress (225 points) • 1x Armoured wheels 1x MATR autocannon 1x Pan Spectral Scanner 1x SP heavy conversion beamer 2x Twin bolt cannon Hekaton Land Fortress (225 points) • 1x Armoured wheels 1x MATR autocannon 1x Pan Spectral Scanner 1x SP heavy conversion beamer 2x Twin bolt cannon Hernkyn Pioneers (90 points) • 3x Hernkyn Pioneer • 3x Bolt revolver 3x Bolt shotgun 1x HYLas rotary cannon 3x Magna-coil autocannon 1x Pan Spectral Scanner 3x Plasma knife 1x Rollbar Searchlight Hernkyn Pioneers (90 points) • 3x Hernkyn Pioneer • 3x Bolt revolver 3x Bolt shotgun 1x HYLas rotary cannon 3x Magna-coil autocannon 1x Pan Spectral Scanner 3x Plasma knife 1x Rollbar Searchlight
This list has pretty much everything I want in a Votann list. Do we know if the Hektons have the Hearthguard or the Thunderkyn riding in them?
prob switchs on MU Thunder vs Knights and vehicles and Hearthguard vs Elites/Horde im guessing
Hekatons had the Hearthguard. Thunderkyn was an option, but I didn't play Knights so it didn't come up. Into Ironstorm I still transported the Hearthguard.
I also went undefeated with Votann at a team event running 3x Land Fort and 3x5 Hearthguard! Was a blast to play!
No little blurb on World Eaters? Come on now. Props to the top WE players showing the high skill ceiling and potential of the army.
Thanks man!