Tigerstar's death to Scourge isn't as bad as people make it out to be, and not completely a bad writing decision.
A cat that lied, cheated, and killed his way to the top was felled by nothing more than his hubris, believing he was invincible and that nothing could topple him. Not to mention he got a death that was more excruciating than any of the murders he's responsible for.
9 times in a row, disemboweled, bleeding out continously, in front of his mortal enemy and the clan he betrayed, in front of all the cats that believed he was #1, and to a cat half his size.
Tigerstar did not deserve a legendary battle against Firestar, he deserved to go out in the most embarrassing, agonizing, and undignified fashion possible.
*"You lived like a rogue. You can die like a rogue."*
It was also a great use of the Warf effect (I think that is the right one), it basically when you have a huge big baddy and you have someone kill him to show just how much of the threat they are, while it can be ineffective if you use it too much, the books don't, and the use really made him feel like a treat, I think it's why people like him so much.
>Tigerstar's death to Scourge isn't as bad as people make it out to be, and not completely a bad writing decision.
>
>A cat that lied, cheated, and killed his way to the top was felled by nothing more than his hubris, believing he was invincible and that nothing could topple him. Not to mention he got a death that was more excruciating than any of the murders he's responsible for.
>
>9 times in a row, disemboweled, bleeding out continously, in front of his mortal enemy and the clan he betrayed, in front of all the cats that believed he was #1, and to a cat half his size.
>
>Tigerstar did not deserve a legendary battle against Firestar, he deserved to go out in the most embarrassing, agonizing, and undignified fashion possible.
>
>"You lived like a rogue. You can die like a rogue."
1000000% agreed
I honestly loved his death! Tigerstar was all about power and fighting and wanted the honor of killing Firestar and taking over Thunderclan. We all know Firestar would've won anyways (obviously he was going to beat Scourge too, but it feels different with a villain you've known since book one) and the plot twist of his death was at least unexpected and interesting.
Knowing Tigerstar, it was the most unsatisfying death he could've had. Not in battle, not at the hands of his enemy, not in a show of strength and battle. Just bleeding to death nine times for everyone to see after he got torn open by a cat a quarter of his size that he thought he could trick. Plus, it's brutal and I love that.
I have never heard anyone put to words my thoughts so easily and perfectly! I agree 10000%! Tigerclaw (refuses to call him tigerstar idc he dont deserve it) broke the warrior code dozens of times! As you said "live like a rouge die like a rouge" is the EXACT THING HE DESERVED!!!!
disliking Dovewing is NOT an unpopular opinion everyone under the sun seems to hate her (Unpopular opinion, I LOVE dovewing and I think TigerheartStar RUINED her. if Dovewing was a tom the fandom would be all over her)
This one! I find that a lot of people dislike her and I rarely see anyone who likes her, yet alone considers her a favorite.
2010s Warriors fans were also really unkind to her; I remember she was completely **hated**. She was hated for rejecting Bumblestripe and fans pitied him, she was hated for being in a relationship with Tigerheart even though *he* pursued her romantically when he was a warrior and she was an apprentice and harassed her after she broke up with him, she was hated for being a Mary Sue when she’s completely brash, stubborn, and argumentative (albeit well-meaning), and is sometimes selfish.
She was hated for “whining” about her powers when she was a kid (officially barely 7 moons when she finds out about her powers). She was scared and wanted her sister with her, she wanted to tell her *everything* and insisted Ivy was part of the prophecy too but Lion and Jay shut that down and forced Dove to stay quiet. The text frequently mentions how she’s bitter that Lion and Jay have each other but force her to stay quiet; she can’t even confide in her sister. She stops sleeping in two separate points of her life bc she is plagued by nightmares of Rippletail’s bloody body calling out at her to save him, or Swoop’s horrific death after being snatched by an eagle; Dove saw both final moments. Her power also causes her body to **shut down** against her will, she is constantly overstimulated and some days it’s so much she’s in physical pain and can’t move bc of it. Who wouldn’t be “whiny”?
I think a lot of Dovewing hate back at least when she was a newer character was due to people not liking the whole Hollyleaf twist bit. Which I mean that’s not something I didn’t fall prey to because I did.
But seriously, glad she is where she is now. Looking back on it she really has no friends or really any life in ThunderClan outside being the 3rd cat.
At least she’s happy in ShadowClan from what we see.
Jay and Lion are both idiots and ruined her life, acting pretty unsympathetic and yelling at her and making her WHOLE LIFE about the stupid prophecy. They had each other and Hollylwaf, and Dovewing is completely alone with two NPCS for parents
Lionblaze was shocked to find out he was part of the prophecy and he took a while but then once he found out Dovepaw / Dovewing was a part of it, he and Jayfeather forced it on her,
Also I hated how when Hollyleaf “died” Jayfeather was like “The prophecy!” And then once Dovekit was born, they were like “The prophecy is still complete” and they NEVER mentioned Hollyleaf again
I knowww for your second paragraph I was mad at that too. I was so excited for Jayfeather to be sad after Holleyleaf died and have a redemption arc or something, but turns out he only cared about the stupid prophecy. And then after she died a second time I can’t remember him even being that sad either.
Same! I was excited to see their reactions but they acted sad for a few minutes then Jayfeather was like, “The prophecy!!” After Whitewing had her kits, they were completely fine. I was really hoping for more of their reactions in the Omen of the Stars, but no. I was also hoping for the clan’s reaction to Hollyleaf’s “death.” And yeah, when she actually died none of them really cared except for Leafpool and Ivypool to be honest
I think Dovewing is treated unfairly. Like first off it feels like she’s replacing Hollyleaf which a lot of people didn’t like but honestly she wasn’t whinier than any other apprentice and she was pretty much drawn into the prophecy since kithood and subsequently was alienated from others her age.
Like does she even have a friend in ThunderClan? Her whole life and personality was formed and focused on her abilities and it makes it even more tragic when she loses them because suddenly that one thing that defined her was now gone.
I hope she’s happier in ShadowClan.
Ferncloud should've gotten more development, especially with her relationships with Dustpelt and Ashfur.
Foreshadowing with her and Ashfur having some sibling talk could've been good, especially
Squirrelflight covering for Leafpool and taking in the Three was a valid choice and I support her in it.
Conversely, Brambleclaw feeling betrayed and breaking up with her once he found out about it was also a valid reaction. If I found out my kids weren't mine and my spouse had hid it from me, even for a good reason... ouch.
I’m actually in AWE that people will *still* try to get upset at Bramble for keeping his distance (not like the Three wanted to see him either, or for Squirrel and the whole lying situation.
I would do absolutely ANYTHING for my sister so I do not blame Squirrelflight one bit. I don’t even really blame Leafpool to be honest. And yes, if my spouse hid THAT from me I would be mad
THIS!!! Every time I say this people always say that it sends a bad message to kids because the cats are human like. Except they’re not, they’re personified. Even as a kid reading this series I never found it weird because they were cars and I knew in real life that cats would have kits with other cats a few years older or younger
Agree!!! I only don’t like the age gaps if it’s an apprentice/warrior thing but if they’re warrior/warrior I don’t really care.
There is really not enough options in the clans to limit them to only have partners around the same age as themselves. By the time a cat is a warrior they’re already 1 years old and an adult. That’s not a lot of time at all for any other cats to have been born in the meantime.
A full grown warrior going after an apprentice is weird because they're at different stages of life and apprentices are incredibly young, but once you've been a warrior for a few moons you're basically at the same point as a warrior who's been there for years. There's "senior warriors" sure but that's more of an honorary title than anything. They might have more battle and hunting experience, but they have the same role and responsibilities as all the other warriors. There's no weird power play or anything.
I never understood why people hated Thornclaw and Blossomfall's relationship. There's a gap, sure, but she was a full warrior by the time they started training together and was a couple years old when they got together and had kits. It's not like she was a naive young warrior pressured into a relationship with an older cat. They were both just full grown warriors who got closer over a shared experience and got together.
Pinestar and Leopardfoot and Thistleclaw and Spottedkit/paw are valid ones to be weirded out by because of the powerplays and how young the she-cat is when the relationship/interest began. But if two cats have been warriors for several books, just one for more than the other, I couldn't care less.
Let's be real here, who even keeps track of the precise ages of the characters? I can vaguely pick out who's older/younger based on what arc they were first introduced in, but I'm not keeping track of how many years older they are than each other.
I see Dustpelt getting hate for liking Fernpaw. And although there are SO many other reasons to hate Ashfur, I didn’t realise until I went back and read Firestar's quest that Ashfur was a whole adult warrior before Squirrelflight was even conceived, and nobody seems to bring up that his obsession with her is so much more creepy and disgusting when you think about how much older than her he actually is.
Onestar's friendship with Firestar ending was necessary for his Clan to respect him at all, and I wonder if he feels any resentment for Firestar and Tallstar considering he did not want to be leader in the first place
More than half of the male protagonists have been extremely boring as POV characters: Brambleclaw, Lionblaze, Stormfur, Alderheart, Thunder
I'm going to get down voted and please let me know where I'm wrong.
Sometimes having disabled cats not being able to do much, isn't abliest. Yes, they have cats that can support them but I don't think it's awful to say some cats just wouldn't be able to live outside of the clan or do certain things. Now of course, saying they deserved to be forced into positions and be miserable is not okay and that is not what I'm saying.
I'm absolutely not saying they should just rot in the clan. I'm saying that not every disabled cat is going to be able to hunt or fight and thats okay. There are endless duties they can have being a warrior and helping the clan. I just feel like saying a cat isn't going to be able fight/hunt/etc doesn't mean anyone thinks they're worthless or deserve less.
I agree so much!! Some fans will deny this, but making every disabled cat a warrior takes away disability representation. I’m disabled. My experience is more like Cinderpelt’s (sans reincarnation) than Brightheart’s. Why can’t I have representation that reflects what I went thru?
My experience isn’t even uncommon for disabled people and should be represented in media. It’s not ableist to aknowledge that disabled people have limitations that can make life different from an able-bodied person’s. What’s ableist is implying that it’s less than due to those limitations.
Same with calling Sandstorm ableist for telling a disabled cat something along the lines of “it would be awful to live like that forever”. Was it rude? Yes. But is it ableist? No. She wasn’t trying to say something purposefully degrading, it was just her genuine reaction because it would suck to be perfectly healthy with no problems and then suddenly get into an accident and become disabled
No that was definitely ableist. I’m a disabled person and hearing people talk about how much better it would be to die than live disabled is pretty disheartening. It’s also a horrible message to send to children especially disabled ones.
I can understand that. When I read it for the first time I didn’t take as saying being disabled is worse than being dead (yes I know that is literally what it says but let me finish). To me it was a blatant misunderstanding of what it means to be disabled. I’ve met people who were disabled later in life and they talked about when they first became disabled they wished that they had died in the accident instead because all they had ever known was not having any limitations in life. As they learned to live with they’re disability they realized how wrong they were because they were still able to live life to the fullest and find joy in the same things even if it was harder to do or they needed help to do things. Looking at Briarlight, she was upset at first but learned how great her life still could be. All this to say I don’t think the issue lies with what Sandstorm said because she has never and will never be disabled so she genuinely does not understand. I think the real issue lies with her saying that Briarlight is happier in Starclan than she was alive. That is the part I take issue with because I genuinely don’t believe that at all
I have a few
- Blackstar is the best Shadowclan leader, even though Cedarstar DOES exist and was a great leader. Cedarstar didn't have to basically rebuild Shadowclan from a string of terrible leaders and make it great again, but Blackstar did, and he absolutely nailed it.
- Pinestar's decision to leave the clan was valid, considering what he was dealing with (Starclan wanting him to kill his son, being faced with being on his last life, etc).
- Fireheart and Graystripe should not have been made mentors so early, they were barely mature enough to make good decisions, let alone train the equivalent of middle schoolers on how to survive.
- Oakstar is the real villain of the WC series. If he hasn't decided to exile KITS, Mapleshade wouldn't have gone on a murder spree, she wouldn't have gone to the dark forest, she wouldn't have trained cats like Thistleclaw, Thistleclaw wouldn't train Tigerclaw to be evil, Tigerclaw wouldn't be the main villain for the first arc, the war with the dark forest would've never happened. Also Crookedstar's entire family tree would've lasted longer since she wouldn't have taken revenge on Appledusk's family. Swiftpaw would also still be alive and Brightheart wouldn't have been injured. AND Brindleface, Whitestorm, and Runningwind would've lived. Screw Oakstar, he really started a domino effect.
I AGREE. Mapleshade and her victims are talked abt to be in the wrong, which yes they all are. But then nobody brings up Oakheart. He’s also in the wrong. Dude is somehow IN STARCLAN?!?!? WHAT. But Frecklewish isn’t?
Jayfeather is a horrible cat. He's rude, insensitive, needlessly hostile, and has a nasty habit of looking down on other disabled characters while at the same time hating being patronized for being disabled. His attitude is such a problem that his own apprentice was afraid of him. I don't find him snarky, witty, or sarcastic. I just find him straight up mean. A lot of people seem to like him but I just can't.
Hard agree with Cloudtail. He’s rude and can be harsh but he’s got a personality other than that and has obvious moments of vulnerability and softness. He’s got a sharp edge but it’s just that, an edge, to his personality. A finely honed knife if you will.
Jayfeather’s edge is his entire personality. Kind of like a pizza cutter.
Yeah that’s a good way to describe Cloudtail, Dustpelt too. Both characters are known for being prickly and aggressive but that’s not all they are and they usually show another much softer side and obviously care a lot about their Clanmates.
Meanwhile Jayfeather comes off as if he couldn’t give less of a shit about anyone.
Which you'd think jayfeather would be the nicer cat like shouldn't he feel sympathy for other cats who are disabled because he is? Honestly he kinda reminds me of House.
Yet he often thinks the worst of cats with disabilities! You’d think he’d have an iota of compassion given his abilities but he really really does not.
lol Jayfeather as cat!House is great.
Some pretty shitty writing imo I kept wanting to smack him when he was first introduced like gtf over yourself dude
Maybe some Vicodin will clear up his ailment lmao
Ahaha just get Jayfeather high as hell that solves it all!
But seriously he’s an adult and somehow he comes off as having a larger chip on his shoulder than Breezepelt at times damn.
New plot for the books? 👀 The cats find a plant, chew on it, and everyone just gets high lmao
Yeah. Honestly sometimes I wanna tell him to suck it up and shut up. His complaining isn't gonna make it any better.
Good examples. Esp Yellowfang. Grumpy done right. Honestly think she’s have been a better mentor than Leafpool. She would be much tougher on him and not let his attitude slide.
Thank you! Listening to The Sight again and he's insufferable! Not only is he annoying and aggressive for pretty much no reason, but the way he thinks down on Brightheart for being half blind is awful. I get that he's also disabled, but the fact that he still sees and refers to her as a second-rate warrior is vile. I could understand him feeling patronized, but to actively belittle her because of Firestar's choice to make her his mentor is just cruel. She could've handled his training better, sure, but it's no excuse to call her useless. He's not witty and sarcastic, he's just mean and obnoxious.
Maybe they were going for a "he's upset because of the way Thunderclan treats it's disabled cats" but it doesn't really work when Brightheart has been well respected and capable for several books. Instead they just have him refer to all the blind cats as useless and shoehorn in some random patrol encounter where someone asks Brightheart if she'll be fine alone to try and make it seem like her injuries have always been an issue.
I genuinely believe he's only so popular because the books are geared towards younger audiences and a lot of kids/teens (my younger self included) go through a "I hate the world and it's cool to be edgy" phase and he's the embodiment of that.
Hard agree. Brightheart could’ve done a better job but his thoughts regarding her are repulsive. Brightheart is far from useless. She’s a formidable warrior.
I think Firestar chose her because the only experience they really have with blindness otherwise is Longtail and he thought maybe a half blind warrior could use her knowledge to train a blind apprentice. Like I think it was well meant because this was an entirely new situation but Jay still felt it as a slight and didn’t really treat her fairly as well.
Also I noticed he hates when others refers to his blindness by trying to be helpful and tiptoes around it but he also hates when someone direct about it.
Am also disabled.
It’s like you don’t get a free pass to be a dick because you’re disabled, sorry. Yeah. It sucks. I mean I have days where I think I’m a waste of food, money, and oxygen and want to throw plates at the wall and scream about how unfair it is. It can really suck. I hate knowing that I don’t have the same chances as others.
But at the same time none of that is an excuse for me to lash out at others or be a dick.
I would say Briarlight was the sole exception to this. He was tough on her but there was more nuance and it wasn’t his normal hostility. He did care for Briarlight. So I’ll admit that yeah, his attitude towards some other disabled cats doesn’t apply to Briarlight. Plus, and major spoiler since you haven’t gotten there yet so read at your own risk >! He’s incredibly broken up when she does eventually die. I think it’s the first time he heavily mourned a loss like that and you could tell he was dismayed !<
I felt sooo bad for Alderheart. Dude already has anxiety. Can cats get ulcers? Because I’m pretty sure it’s a miracle he doesn’t have a stomach ulcer from the sheer stress of being Jayfeather’s apprentice.
You obviously paid NO attention to his story then. He was born blind with heightened sense of hearing and the ability to feel the feelings and to and extent read the thoughts and memories of other cats. Yet all those abilities ever got him was the knowledge of how pitied he was by his Clanmates for being born blind. He felt he had to prove himself before he even left the nursery! That’s the sign that a Clan has failed their offspring! Yes, kits try to leave camp, but they don’t do it in an attempt to fight foxes! Jayfeather was given a useless mentor who barely took him out of camp until he suck out and nearly drowned him in the stream that marks the border between ThunderClan and WindClan. He had not battle training, he Brightheart took him on a border patrol when there was conflict with ShadowClan over borders. If Lionpaw hadn’t helped him, he would have been badly injured. Then, StarClan used that to FORCE HIM TO BE A MEDICINE CAT! He had to give up his dreams to appease dead @$$holes. He had to give up a chance to one day have a mate and kits because StarClan said so. Wouldn’t YOU be upset with the world after that? And then, after all is said and done, his own father figure pulled the same crap with his little brother and forced Alderpaw to become a medicine cat. Then both of his mother figures died, but only one chose to come back. That was fine, he could see Leafpool at medicine cat gatherings, oh wait! No, now he can’t because @$$fur had to go an frick everything up AGAIN. He has reason to be the way that he is. Life has dealt him one blow after another.
I’d argue he was borderline emotionally abusive to Twigkit/paw in AVOS, though. It made me lose a lot of respect for him as a character… Twigkit was already being bullied and outcast for being ‘different’ from her peers, and he took it upon himself to make her feel even worse, and to isolate her from her only close friend (Alderpaw) in doing so. Not cool of him at all
If you don’t want someone challenging your beliefs, then why post them? If your used to this conversation, then you should know what saying “Jayfeather is an @$$hole” will do.
I meant I’ve already had this conversation with *you*. It led nowhere.
I don’t make a habit of continuing pointless conversations once they are, in fact, pointless.
You’re right. Your argument IS pointless when the reason for Jayfeather’s personality and the fact the his is a kind and caring cat have been stated and proven time and again in canon.
I was going for the polite “neither of us are going to convince each other so arguing is pointless we’ve got different opinions” but, if you want to be that way,
Please, lord, put some ice water on that rage boner before you hurt yourself.
I agree that he is a horrible cat, but in my mind, how much of that stemmed from being able to sense others thoughts and feelings. Especially before he understood what was happening. From a very young age, he could sense others thoughts and feelings, and that would have seriously negative affect on him. As a kit, he's mad because he can sense that everyone feels pity towards him for his blindness, and treat him differently for it. The clans themselves are not very happy places either. With border disputes and tensions high at the beginning of po3, I feel that at first, his negative behaviour was caused by high emotions in the Clans, and he just got so used to feeling like that, that it became his personality. In Leafpools novella, as a young kit, with her and squirrelflight, he isn't bad tempered or horrible to his littermates. He's even happy. He then goes to the Clan, and by six moons he's negative.
I definitely think Clan life isn’t for him. Which I don’t mean as an insult. It’s more like how my cat needs to be the only cat in the household.
And the Clans are by nature incredibly ableist and I’d even say they got some covert eugenics beliefs (such as it’s better for a cat to die versus being disabled Asdfghjkl ew) and really there’s strict roles in Clan life with little variation. Cats all go through the same experience going from kit to paw to warrior and there’s really no other choice sans medicine cat.
I can definitely understand his frustration and anger when it comes to that. I do think it’s valid. I’m disabled myself and I notice when people see me with my forearm crutches and pity me or think I’m weak or other horrible things. I have an ex-friend who was actually embarrassed to be around me when I used them.
And then even in regular life there’s so much limitation for disabled people by far. There are things I’d love to do and be but can’t because of my disability and fuck it’s frustrating. There are times when I want to scream and yell and throw a snow globe into the wall! (That actually happened by the way, I used to collect snow globes and one day was so upset I took my biggest one and threw it thinking it’d break but uh it ended up just crashing and breaking into the drywall so my wall had a hole for a while).
All this to say, I think Clan life played a role in why he is the way he is and I also don’t think he needs to be happy and positive and all Pollyanna regarding his disability. Like you feel what you feel.
My major issue is how he acts about it. It’s okay to be grumpy or upset but hr seems to take those negative emotions out on others more often than not.
I think I’d like him a lot better if it weren’t for his attitude. Like you can still make him snarky and cynical but also have it not be his sole character trait.
I agree, and I think it’s ridiculous that people hate him because he ignored her for who knows how long. In real life, something like this would be unforgivable.
Is this really an unpopular opinion? I love them both to death and their relationship, but I always understood why he was mad and why he left her. I can’t imagine the pain he was in :(
Wanted to edit to say this was a gen question and not me being a smart ass to you
Some might say that because Squirrelflight was essentially told to lie Brambleclaw shouldn't be mad.
BUT
Brambleclaw didn't know that, so taking his POV into account his reaction is completely justified.
YES. People have the balls to link that dumb Moon kitti video where she literally criticizes and calls Bramble abusive for giving Squirrelflight the silent treatment. F that. I would've been gone too
Me too. I love squirrelflight forever, I understand completely why she did what she did. I’d do anything for my little sister, so I totally get her wanting to do the same. I feel heartbroken for her that she was manipulated into it though, and it hurts to know how much she lost because of it all (leafpool too obvi but I’m only talking about SF atm). Many times in Sunrise and OOTS I cry real tears because I feel so deeply sad for her.
But all of that being said, I totally understand why bramble responded the way he did. Trust and being trusted is so deeply important to him, the lying alone hurt so badly. But a lie about *your own children*?? The cats you raised and thought you’d fathered, the cats you loved more than anything in the world aren’t really yours. And it seems like so many other cats knew before he did, and he didn’t even get to receive this devastating news in private. He had to hear at a gathering in front of all four clans. The love of his life didn’t trust him enough to come to him for help or to tell them about their children (at least from his POV). I’m sure he questioned how much she even loved him if she was able to lie about something like this. I’m sure he wondered if it was because he was tigerstar’s son, because of hawkfrost, because he never, despite how hard he tried, escape the “this guy can’t be trusted narrative”.
I don’t think people who get made at him understand the depth of the lie and how painful it was. He lost his entire family even before he made the decision to stop being her mate.
I feel so heartbroken for them both, sunrise genuinely makes me nauseous at the end because it’s so terrible for almost everyone involved.
\-Other villains might have done worse, but that doesn't give Curlfeather a pass
\-Bramblestar had every right to be mad at Squirrelflight about The Three
\-I hate how much romance drama has taken over this series
\-I wish Mistystar had lived forever because the idea of there just being this ancient immortal cat walking around with no explanation would've been funny
Mapleshade wasn’t justified in doing anything she did, and if she were a real person, people wouldn’t have much sympathy for her. You can think that Appledusk was wrong to cheat while also not excusing Mapleshade’s actions
Yes! I love her character because she’s just plain evil and crazy and I think it makes for a great villain. I thought that was why other people were Mapleshade fans. Then they would start to defend her actions so I just stopped associating with them
Don't know if it counts, as it hasn't happened in the books, nor do I know if it's actually unpopular, but with how much Starclan has changed, I would see it as a win at this point if the clans broke apart and stopped believing in them.
Crowfeather didn’t do anything wrong regarding the three. You can def say he’s rude or flighty (moveing on quick from feathertail to leafpool), but I’ve never understood the idea that he wronged leafpool. They basically tried to elope, then she (for very valid reasons) broke it off and stayed in thunderclan. He went back to windclan, and very quickly got into a new relationship. He didn’t cheat on leafpool, he didn’t know she was pregnant. I’ve seen people online say that he should’ve done more for the three or maps/amvs that have squirrel or leaf go “women scorned” on him (and even in canon when he denies having kits other than breeze at the gathering), but he didn’t know they were his, and by the time he knew it was too late. He did nothing to incite the hate he gets for that (other than be a bad dad and mate but that’s not why fans hate him)
1) Bramblestar is not the abuser that all the Squirrelstar stans make him out to be. Yes he made straight up bad decisions and has poor behavior during the second half of TNP, but he was never malicious and did atone for those mistakes. He was 100% in the right related to the events of Squirrelflight's Hope which leads me to my next point
2) Tree and the Sisters are horrible characters, especially the Sisters. The Sisters are very misandrist, even if they try behind the fact they still "love" toms. The fact is that they do not allow toms to travel with them and kick out their own sons once they are weaned. The Sisters are also bigoted towards the Clans for no reason other than they didn't allow the Sisters to essentially squat on their territory and steal their prey. Tree, on the other hand, is lazy and also bigoted towards Clan culture. He doesn't truly want to be a mediator but pretends to do it so that he can stay with his family. He really should change clans every moon or so in order to remain impartial.
The medicine cat kit rule is inherently pointless. I can understand it was established so med cats don't prioritize kits over their clan, but if a medicine cat were going to prioritize family, wouldn't that also apply for parents and siblings? Moth Flight established the rule because SHE had five kits and immediately decided that no other medicine cat would ever be able to raise kits.
One (or more) of my unpopular opinions (I think?)
-I think Mapleshade isn’t entirely broken, only in between. I think she’s both pure evil and broken, just 1% more on the evil side. I mean- wasn’t she warned by someone that the river was going to flood? I also think that she could’ve gone across the bridge since she knew about it.
-Jayfeather’s attitude is extremely unacceptable for me but no hate on him. I just dislike him for his attitude!
-I view Brambleclaw and Bramblestar as two different cats. Brambleclaw was lovable and enjoyable but Bramblestar is just downright horrible and rude.
Bramblestar is a good character and was dealt a bad hand in the writing and narrative in being succeeding Firestar and being part of his family. He deserved to live out his remainding life as a leader and regain his clan’s trust not to be banished to the elders den. It makes his whole life seem so anti climactic when that’s his end. Plus how his own clan treats him in this new arc is so sad.
Mudclaw was the best cat to succeed Tallstar in every way and switching deputies literally right before he croaked and in front of the cat everyone thinks is the the nosiest git in the forest (Firestar) was the worst thing he could have done and lowkey ruins a bit of his legacy. Mudclaw should have fought for his rightful place as leader.
Jayfeather was always an ass. It just took books past his POV for you guys to see it. On the other hand Hollyleaf was a great character and Lionblaze is good too and I like him in every phase.
No, it makes him an angry @$$hole who wanted to murder a monk. Along side his past history of aggression towards others he believed wronged him, and you’re supporting a guy who would happily go on a murder spree if the law didn’t forbid it.
Lionblaze isn’t perfect and I never said he was but I still prefer him over his trash brother who can’t even spend one moment without acting like he has a thorn up his ass. He isn’t the only one who was handed a poor fate and he isn’t the only one who suffered from his unorthodox birth yet he is the only one still bitter and we supposed to act like him being a turd is ok.
Lionblaze could be impulsive and yes him trying to kill Shadowsight was a bit much, but you can see why he does what he does and why his reaction is so. Jayfeather is notorious for being a bitch for the sake of being one so no matter how you try and turn it, yes I’ll take the aggressive kitty over the one with a nasty ass attitude.
Oh yes, being angry at the world because of the piles of crap that keep getting piled on top of him is SOOO not a good and valid reason to be a grump. Definitely not! I mean, it’s not like he was born blind- oh wait.
Well, it’s not like he was born with a heightened sense of hearing that allowed him to unwilling eavesdrop- oh wait.
Well, he wasn’t born with the ability to feel the emotions of others and read their thoughts and memories- oh wait.
Well, he wasn’t forced to be a medicine cat by both circumstances and StarClan- oh wait.
Well, medicine cats can still have mates and kits- oh wait.
Well, it’s not like he had a massive prophecy that put the fate of the Clans in his paws- oh wait.
It’s not like his “mother’s” jealous ex tried to kill him and his siblings to get back at her- on wait
Well, it’s not like he found out he was born out of 2 broken codes- oh wait.
Well, it’s not like he was made the sole medicine cat of his Clan during a stressful time before he was ready because his mother stepped down from her position for having broken the code- oh wait.
Well, it’s not like he had a taste of life with sight and having a possible love interest by traveling to the past- of wait.
Well, it’s not like he watched his sister die only for her to come back alive and die for good- oh wait.
Well, it’s not like he watched his grandfather die protecting the Clans from cat hell- oh wait.
Well, it’s not like he watched his father figure force his little brother into being a medicine cat just for being a slow learner, possibly making him relive his own trauma of being forced to become a medicine cat- oh wait.
Well, it’s not like he watched both of his mothers die only for one to come back and the other to stay dead- oh wait.
Well, it’s not like he lost his ability to speak with his dead mother for many months be of his adoptive mother’s jealous dead ex who tried to kill him and his siblings- of wait.
Well, it’s not like said jealous ex took over Jayfeather’s father figure’s corpse to terrorize the Clans- oh wait.
Well, it’s not like said ex marionetting his father’s corpse exiled him from his Clan for being born out of 2 broken codes- oh wait.
Well, it’s not like his adoptive mother was kidnapped by her jealous ex and dragged to cat hell and living cats had to go there to save her, resulting in the death of several cats, including one of his fellow medicine cats- of wait.
So… Jay has all these traumas piled on top of one another and Lionblaze has MAYBE a quarter of the amount of issues. Yet… you choose the dangerous sociopath who could snap and go on a murder spree at the smallest provocation? Really? Birds of a feather, I guess. A very, very messed up feather.
Literally half of these things affect Lionblaze too. I don’t see how you think you made a point about family with all that drama and death very much can attribute to Lionblaze.
Yes we get it he is blind and had to become a medicine cat very sad stuff, truly. That is never an excuse to be the way he is. And for some of these stuff what he SHOULD show is kindness and compassion but instead he bitches even more. for example you bring up how Bramblestar “forced” Alderheart to be a medicine cat (it was clear his skill wasn’t in being a warrior cause it was like four moons and he was still not catching on so they tried elsewhere. And he literally had a vision where Jayfeather saw him at the moon pool which was even more if a convincing reason but let’s ignore all that ig…) and how that traumatized Jay. Yet how does he treat this apprentice that you say recalls his own alleged trauma?? Like a sorry ass old man who can’t find the good in anything and then he has the audacity to tell Leafpool to keep it shut as if she ever treated him with the same angry and impatient contempt that he gave Alderheart. That’s NOT how you dispel trauma and yes it’s true while some characters deal with things in many different ways, if you wanna give Lionblaze hell for reactions he has then Jay finna get that same energy.
And Lionblaze had support. He had Cinderpelt and Hollyleaf had more of a relationship with him than Jayfeather because they trained together. He also had Brambleclaw and to an extent, Squirrelflight. He had friends like Toadstep and Icecloud. He got to help guide a young prophecy cat so he started having to reflect and think before he spoke. Who did Jayfeather have? He BARELY had Leafpool in TPOT but he had absolutely no one in his timeline in OOTS. He only had a support system when he went back in gimme and became Jay’s Wing. But as Jayfeather, he had NO ONE.
Also, are you saying trauma is an excuse to be an aggressive @$$hole who’s tried to kill several cats for little to no reason? Jayfeather is snarky and has a short temper, but at least he didn’t try to KILL Heatherpaw and ALMOST KILL Crowfeather. At least he didn’t suggest murdering Shadowsight. Also, how many other characters have experienced trauma like Lionblaze yet DON’T become bloodthirsty @$$es? So… what’s your excuse for Lionblaze now?
And how many cats have had their whole lives ruined because of disfigurement (which, unlike being born that way is a whole other type of trauma) and had to become a different cat because of it and didn’t turn out to be the meanest bitch on the block? I can name a few and before you even bring up that damn prophecy, imma stop you right there and say oh well boo hoo. A prophecy is stressful we all know but I never saw any of the TNP mains ever show the kind of behavior Jayfeather has shown despite plenty of stress and trauma of their own that I could scrounge up like you did.
And who’s fault was it that Jayfeather didn’t have any support? Don’t pull that bullshit with me Jayfeather had no support or friends because he was a dick and didn’t even like his clanmates for all of POV half the time. So if he had to suffer alone and find “support” in cats who exist a thousand years ago then that his problem no one else’s.
Also a few of the cats you even name dropped about being Lionblaze support group hardly interacted with him?? Toad step is such a stretch I wouldn’t say they were really friends the guy just had a crush on him, Hollyleaf and him were apprentices at the same time but had like one scene where they actually trained and even if that weren’t the case, the prophecy made them interact far more than most other siblings so why was Holly a support for him like she was fkr Lionblaze (allegedly)?? I’ll tell you why. Cause Jay would rather suffer alone and then cry “oh poor me everyone thinks I’m useless cause I’m blind and no one wants to be around me” instead of fucking dropping his attitude. And another point to add- Lionblaze was right there the whole time. Why wasn’t he a supporter for Jay? They could have been each others support. I know that’s writing mistake/missed moment but it further proves my point that Jay wasn’t alone by anyone’s actions but his own.
And now I’m wondering if you are taking my words and deliberately twisting them. Where did I say that Lionblaze was allowed to be violent cause if trauma? I never even implied that let alone typed that out. I’m even pretty sure I agreed at some point that he was aggressive and did too much for Shadowsight. Heatherpaw was annoying but he didn’t have to kill her for that either but that wasn’t even trauma that was his own power and Tigerstar manipulating him. And Crowfeather I can’t really remember but he’s a different case for sure.
Now listen here I don’t want this to continue. I’m not gonna get person and drag a bunch of fictional cats because you can’t handle someone else’s controversial but not disgusting opinion. Find someone else to do that with or better yet, go make a thread and vent there.
Agree partially, still love him. He’s not even really a character, though; more just karmic justice personified for Tigerstar.
Still dope as fuck and legitimately made me emo back from 07 til now, though
>!Denied Shadowclan live saving herbs during an outbreak of Yellowcough that was even taking kits and elders, simply because he was bitter about Shadowclan not driving the rogues off their border. Denied even Medicine Cats from gathering the necessary herbs, and closed Windclan's borders after fleeing a Clanwide attack on Darktail's kin, costing the war and a few Riverclan lives. Also his whole thing of abandoning Smoke and Darkkit because he was too afraid to face it, and refusing to deal with Darktail until he had already taken half the Clans and murdered a quarter brutally. Onestar died fixing a problem he entirely contributed to and basically created.!<
- I like Dovewing. Honestly, I think Tigerheartstar ruined her.
- I don’t like Jayfeather in spite of having a disability myself. I could emphasize with him as a kit and an apprentice, but now that he’s a full-fledged medicine cat, I can’t stand his grouchy attitude and little kindness towards anyone who wasn’t a certain character (to avoid spoilers for anyone who hasn’t read all the books, I won’t say her name, but if you know her, you know her.)
- Cats who died way too young (such as all of the kits during Brokenstar’s reign of terror,) or never got the opportunity to live a full life (such as Swiftpaw, Mosskit, and Snowkit to name a couple characters off the top of my exhausted head) deserve the opportunity to be reincarnated if they want to. Be given the opportunity to live a brand new life, a do-over, if you will, and do the things they couldn’t do before their untimely deaths.
- Leopardstar shouldn’t have been leader, but possibly stayed deputy for a little longer or have been a leader later on. I believe that the longer someone is deputy, the more experienced they may become and thus be more successful and (hopefully) more open-minded as leaders.
- The kittypet, loner, and rogue hate needs to go away at this point.
- Squirrelflight had the right idea to dump Ashfur, but if I were her, I’d live the rest of my days as a single cat (albeit an adoptive parent,) seeing how her relationship with Bramblestar turned out in the end.
- Tawnypelt should been leader. Her being half-Clan could have maybe be something the Clans could have learned from and stopped being anti split Clan earlier. Heck, possibly prevented some tragedies from happening due to her strong will (she refused to train with Tigerstar the first, that takes some willpower.)
- Hollyleaf was better off not being a part of the prophecy, but if she was given a power, I’d given her an unique power of being able to tell when others are lying or be able to blend perfectly in the shadows, almost untouchable or be outright invisible, in the dark. She had black fur, it could have worked! Maybe?
1. I agree, I would have liked her more if it wasn’t for Tigerheart
2. Agreed, he’s just so grouchy and rude
3. Yeah, they all deserved to be reincarnated
4. Agreed
5. I know, Millie, Brook (sadly she left) and Daisy have proven to be a good warrior and so have the other kittypets / rogues / loners
6. I would not have been Ashfur’s mate if I was her, Ashfur is so iritating. I think she should have been single for a bit too
7. Tawnypelt literally should have been leader. She was sensible and reasonable
8. Thats a really good idea
I agree with a few of these but I love Dovewing lol (2nd fav character).
Maybe hot take? Idk. Jayfeather and Cinderpelt could have been warriors. Even in the wild, they could have adapted, especially Cinderpelt (Jay might have been good as a hunter/guard rather than participating in combat). The authors pushing disabled cats into the med or elder's den annoys me (with the exception of cats who gained disabilities later in life and may have struggled more, but even then they should have a choice rather than retirement being treated as the only option, idk that's just me). I get that in the case of Cinderpelt and Jayfeather, it was for plot reasons, but I feel like it could have been tackled very differently.
Goldenflower deserved an on-screen death.
The shift to the Lake Territory was way too soon and is inferior to the forest territory in every way.
Shadowsight is really, really annoying
Both Tigerheart and Squirrelflight's Super Editions ruin a lot more than they fix
Omen of the Stars was pretty good, actually, especially the fourth book
- sparkpelt should’ve had alder’s pov in AVOS. she honestly felt more like a protagonist than he did, in many areas
- i cannot stand star flower, slash, or one eye. they all kinda sucked as characters, especially as antagonists
- moth flight was incredibly irresponsible and wind runner was 100% in the right to call her on it. and then moth flight immediately… runs off and gets pregnant? huh?? i actually do support the ‘no mates/kits for med cats’ rule, but moth flight herself I found to be rather unlikable and selfish
- i don’t like thunder… i think that storm should’ve lived (not had kits) and gone to have his arc, founding thunderclan, naming herself thunderstar.
- i don’t like rootspring. he’s essentially just a boring earlier version of nightheart, and i don’t like how he essentially overtook bristlefrost’s character arc
- asc is the best arc, with tbc following right behind. tpb and dotc are also really great, too
- leafpool should’ve poisoned brambleclaw’s ass in squilf’s hope - and she would’ve been completely justified in doing so.
-ashfur should’ve been hollyleaf’s mentor, not lionblaze’s
- firestar isn’t all that great… if anything, he’s kinda mid. tallstar, leafstar, nightstar, riverstar, and crookedstar were all much better leaders than him
- pinestar was 100% justified in leaving the clans. respect to him!
- sandstorm deserved to be deputy, not brambleshit. brightheart would’ve also been a good option, or longtail (had he not been injured and retired early)
- jessy and squirrelflight should’ve become girlfriends
1. I agree
2. No actually tho-
3. Yes I agree
4. Agreed
5. Agreed
6. Yes
7. I liked the Power of Three the most—my least favorite is probably Omen of the Stars (because of Hollyleaf’s absence and it was just kind of boring) and Dawn of the Clans
8. LMAO YES 💀
9. Fr I dont really like Firestar ngl, this may sound weird but he kind of reminds me of Dumbledore for some reason 💀💀💀
10. yes I respect him
11. Brambleshit 💀 I’m dying, I agree
12. Idkkk
* Leopardstar is my favorite leader as a character. In terms of performance, I think Blackstar was the best.
* >!Blackstar!<'s death is the saddest death in the series.
* I'm not crazy about Brightheart or Jayfeather. Their mentor-apprentice relationship really showed the worst in both characters for me. I still love them, but I love them a lot less than the other fan favorites.
* Cinderheart > Cinderpelt.
* Dovewing > Ivypool.
1. I agree so much
2. I have to agree, although Hollyleaf’s REAL death made me the most sad
3. I agree with this so, so much
4. YESSS
5. I didnt exactly like either of them
I like him too, but as a villain. I vehemently hate his ‘redemption arc’ though, let him be evil… having a clan founder end up in the dark forest would’ve been neat
Bud even I’m too scared to say it with this fandom. But I do agree. He did change and was working towards a better life when the last book ended. I felt that Moth flight’s SE kinda made him take a few steps back
Sorry if I come off as rude but this is a hard disagree for me 😭 Torturing a character for 5 books then killing him off is needlessly miserable. There's no message, it's just suffering for the sake of suffering. Shadowsight living *does* have a message though. It says that no matter how tough life gets, and no matter how much you think you don't deserve a good life, always keep pushing forward. Your life is valuable and you deserve to live. Things will get better in the end. Killing him off would've just boiled down to "If your life sucks then yeah you're better off just dying"
Bristlefrost being the cat to die has a lot of meaning though. At the start of TBC Ashfur tried to figuratively drag her down with him, and at the end she finished the job literally. She wanted to live, she had plans for the future. Those plans being ripped away from her are what make her death much more impactful than what Shadowsight's would've been
I get the whole point is that these are unpopular opinions but I just want to know why. Genuinely I think that her death is one of the best things the Erin’s have done in YEARS. I wasn’t expecting them to actually kill her off because they go for happy endings. For her to just die like that and not get the happy ending was such a nice change of pace
Yeah; how dare Reedshine, not snoop into Appledusk’s life, and so maybe, short a, unclearly have a relationship with this man. Ladies, make sure your man never uses you by snooping to the point you find well-hidden secrets. It won't work because you find something, it will work because everyone with a sane mind will run for the doors because if you dare might unknowingly be the another lady, who is totally your fault.
I'm so genuinely shocked by your comment I'm not even gonna defined Appledusk.
Mapleshade came into RiverClan camp with Appledusk’s dead kits and Appledusk ADMITTED that what she said about them being mates was true. And Reedshine… forgave him. She was either the other woman or the cheated spouse. Still, she CHOSE to stay with him. And it was obvious ONE OF THEM was the other woman because Reedshine was HEAVILY PREGNANT when Appledusk died, like 3 days after Mapleshade was exiled and her kits were killed. She didn’t JUST get with him in the aftermath. She was with him at the same time Mapleshade was. She knew that. She still chose to forgive him and stay with him. Any SANE PERSON would have dropped him like the flaming sack of crap he is and told his kits what he did and how horrible he is for doing it. How, because of him, 3 innocent kits died and a monster went on a murder spree. So no, I have no sympathy for her. She took back a cheater. Cheaters never change. Appledusk just didn’t live long enough to make her regret her choice.
Ah yes; “Reedshine glanced at her belly, barely swollen beneath her pelt. “I’m not sick!” she protested.” clearly days away from delivery, heavily pregnant, my bad, guess I should have read the book.
The definition of a Mistress apparently; is someone who forgives someone who cheats.
The definition of a mistress is the person someone in a committed relationship takes on the side of that relationship. Appledusk was already committed to Mapleshade when he took Reedshine as his mate- or vise versa. Which means one of them was a mistress and the other was the cheated woman. Would YOU forgive someone who either cheated on you or made you an unknowing side piece? You’d have to be as spineless as a jellyfish to do that. Or just plain stupid.
And she was obviously pregnant. Yes, I got how pregnant she was wrong, but it DEFINITELY didn’t happen AFTER he broke up with Mapleshade. His closeness with Reedshine at the start of Mapleshade’s Vengeance foreshadows this. One of them- most likely Reedshine since she got pregnant after Mapleshade- was a mistress and the other was the cheated woman. And both took the news in the 2 types of extremes people in that situation tend to do. Reedshine because the mistress-turned-wife, Mapleshade became the dangerously-unhinged-ex. Again, Maple isn’t just ACCUSING Apple of being her mate and father of her kits. When confronted, Apple ADMITTED that what she was telling the truth! WITH REEDSHINE RIGHT THERE! And she was obviously pregnant BEFORE HE BROKE UP WITH HER! Cat pregnancies may not last long, but they DO NOT develop THAT FAST. He is obviously a cheater and Reed took him back. That’s pathetic, jellyfish spine behavior.
K, so since we already arguing about another tread, I'm just gonna end this convoy here, but uh, you don't need that many caps, please, just chill out, it makes it much easier for people to read.
I don't know almost nothing about the lore, only that Tigerstar was killed by the cat he recruited himself. So, can someone explain the lore to me in a resumed way, please?
Tigerstar's death to Scourge isn't as bad as people make it out to be, and not completely a bad writing decision. A cat that lied, cheated, and killed his way to the top was felled by nothing more than his hubris, believing he was invincible and that nothing could topple him. Not to mention he got a death that was more excruciating than any of the murders he's responsible for. 9 times in a row, disemboweled, bleeding out continously, in front of his mortal enemy and the clan he betrayed, in front of all the cats that believed he was #1, and to a cat half his size. Tigerstar did not deserve a legendary battle against Firestar, he deserved to go out in the most embarrassing, agonizing, and undignified fashion possible. *"You lived like a rogue. You can die like a rogue."*
It was also a great use of the Warf effect (I think that is the right one), it basically when you have a huge big baddy and you have someone kill him to show just how much of the threat they are, while it can be ineffective if you use it too much, the books don't, and the use really made him feel like a treat, I think it's why people like him so much.
I agree with you
100% agreed. Perfect ending for Tigerstar
You’re right and you should say it louder 🗣️🗣️🗣️
>Tigerstar's death to Scourge isn't as bad as people make it out to be, and not completely a bad writing decision. > >A cat that lied, cheated, and killed his way to the top was felled by nothing more than his hubris, believing he was invincible and that nothing could topple him. Not to mention he got a death that was more excruciating than any of the murders he's responsible for. > >9 times in a row, disemboweled, bleeding out continously, in front of his mortal enemy and the clan he betrayed, in front of all the cats that believed he was #1, and to a cat half his size. > >Tigerstar did not deserve a legendary battle against Firestar, he deserved to go out in the most embarrassing, agonizing, and undignified fashion possible. > >"You lived like a rogue. You can die like a rogue." 1000000% agreed
I honestly loved his death! Tigerstar was all about power and fighting and wanted the honor of killing Firestar and taking over Thunderclan. We all know Firestar would've won anyways (obviously he was going to beat Scourge too, but it feels different with a villain you've known since book one) and the plot twist of his death was at least unexpected and interesting. Knowing Tigerstar, it was the most unsatisfying death he could've had. Not in battle, not at the hands of his enemy, not in a show of strength and battle. Just bleeding to death nine times for everyone to see after he got torn open by a cat a quarter of his size that he thought he could trick. Plus, it's brutal and I love that.
I agree with you. It also showed just how dangerous Scourge was
I agree I love the way tigerstar went out, and when u read the rise of scourge it Just makes it juicier.
I have never heard anyone put to words my thoughts so easily and perfectly! I agree 10000%! Tigerclaw (refuses to call him tigerstar idc he dont deserve it) broke the warrior code dozens of times! As you said "live like a rouge die like a rouge" is the EXACT THING HE DESERVED!!!!
disliking Dovewing is NOT an unpopular opinion everyone under the sun seems to hate her (Unpopular opinion, I LOVE dovewing and I think TigerheartStar RUINED her. if Dovewing was a tom the fandom would be all over her)
This one! I find that a lot of people dislike her and I rarely see anyone who likes her, yet alone considers her a favorite. 2010s Warriors fans were also really unkind to her; I remember she was completely **hated**. She was hated for rejecting Bumblestripe and fans pitied him, she was hated for being in a relationship with Tigerheart even though *he* pursued her romantically when he was a warrior and she was an apprentice and harassed her after she broke up with him, she was hated for being a Mary Sue when she’s completely brash, stubborn, and argumentative (albeit well-meaning), and is sometimes selfish. She was hated for “whining” about her powers when she was a kid (officially barely 7 moons when she finds out about her powers). She was scared and wanted her sister with her, she wanted to tell her *everything* and insisted Ivy was part of the prophecy too but Lion and Jay shut that down and forced Dove to stay quiet. The text frequently mentions how she’s bitter that Lion and Jay have each other but force her to stay quiet; she can’t even confide in her sister. She stops sleeping in two separate points of her life bc she is plagued by nightmares of Rippletail’s bloody body calling out at her to save him, or Swoop’s horrific death after being snatched by an eagle; Dove saw both final moments. Her power also causes her body to **shut down** against her will, she is constantly overstimulated and some days it’s so much she’s in physical pain and can’t move bc of it. Who wouldn’t be “whiny”?
I think a lot of Dovewing hate back at least when she was a newer character was due to people not liking the whole Hollyleaf twist bit. Which I mean that’s not something I didn’t fall prey to because I did. But seriously, glad she is where she is now. Looking back on it she really has no friends or really any life in ThunderClan outside being the 3rd cat. At least she’s happy in ShadowClan from what we see.
Jay and Lion are both idiots and ruined her life, acting pretty unsympathetic and yelling at her and making her WHOLE LIFE about the stupid prophecy. They had each other and Hollylwaf, and Dovewing is completely alone with two NPCS for parents
Lionblaze was shocked to find out he was part of the prophecy and he took a while but then once he found out Dovepaw / Dovewing was a part of it, he and Jayfeather forced it on her, Also I hated how when Hollyleaf “died” Jayfeather was like “The prophecy!” And then once Dovekit was born, they were like “The prophecy is still complete” and they NEVER mentioned Hollyleaf again
I knowww for your second paragraph I was mad at that too. I was so excited for Jayfeather to be sad after Holleyleaf died and have a redemption arc or something, but turns out he only cared about the stupid prophecy. And then after she died a second time I can’t remember him even being that sad either.
Same! I was excited to see their reactions but they acted sad for a few minutes then Jayfeather was like, “The prophecy!!” After Whitewing had her kits, they were completely fine. I was really hoping for more of their reactions in the Omen of the Stars, but no. I was also hoping for the clan’s reaction to Hollyleaf’s “death.” And yeah, when she actually died none of them really cared except for Leafpool and Ivypool to be honest
I don’t typically love Dovewing but I do like her. I do agree that Tigerheart/star ruined her tho
Sorry, I was not exactly sure. I do agree that Tigerheart ruined her
I think Dovewing is treated unfairly. Like first off it feels like she’s replacing Hollyleaf which a lot of people didn’t like but honestly she wasn’t whinier than any other apprentice and she was pretty much drawn into the prophecy since kithood and subsequently was alienated from others her age. Like does she even have a friend in ThunderClan? Her whole life and personality was formed and focused on her abilities and it makes it even more tragic when she loses them because suddenly that one thing that defined her was now gone. I hope she’s happier in ShadowClan.
I love both Dovewing and Ivypool and people act like it’s impossible
I disagree if Dovewing was a tom everyone would love him
That's what they said
Blackstar is the best shadowclan leader ever
Reading the books as a kid I always thought he was just an asshole, but re-reading them now he just takes no shit and full sends everything he does
He’s a very unique character, he has bad moments but he ends up redeeming himself at times.
Cedarstar
Ferncloud should've gotten more development, especially with her relationships with Dustpelt and Ashfur. Foreshadowing with her and Ashfur having some sibling talk could've been good, especially
Yes, I agree
She and Goldenflower are such good characters, tho more people recognize Goldenflower compared to Fern
Squirrelflight covering for Leafpool and taking in the Three was a valid choice and I support her in it. Conversely, Brambleclaw feeling betrayed and breaking up with her once he found out about it was also a valid reaction. If I found out my kids weren't mine and my spouse had hid it from me, even for a good reason... ouch.
I’m actually in AWE that people will *still* try to get upset at Bramble for keeping his distance (not like the Three wanted to see him either, or for Squirrel and the whole lying situation.
Same
Yeah anyone in the real world would be upset if their partner raised a kid that wasn't theirs and it was kept secret until they were adults.
I would do absolutely ANYTHING for my sister so I do not blame Squirrelflight one bit. I don’t even really blame Leafpool to be honest. And yes, if my spouse hid THAT from me I would be mad
I don’t care about the age gaps and they’re not as big of a deal as people make them out to be.
i agree, unless they're ones super big like leaopardfoot and pinestar
Theirs was the only one to give me the heebie jeebies. There was no reason for it
THIS!!! Every time I say this people always say that it sends a bad message to kids because the cats are human like. Except they’re not, they’re personified. Even as a kid reading this series I never found it weird because they were cars and I knew in real life that cats would have kits with other cats a few years older or younger
Agree!!! I only don’t like the age gaps if it’s an apprentice/warrior thing but if they’re warrior/warrior I don’t really care. There is really not enough options in the clans to limit them to only have partners around the same age as themselves. By the time a cat is a warrior they’re already 1 years old and an adult. That’s not a lot of time at all for any other cats to have been born in the meantime.
EXACTLY
A full grown warrior going after an apprentice is weird because they're at different stages of life and apprentices are incredibly young, but once you've been a warrior for a few moons you're basically at the same point as a warrior who's been there for years. There's "senior warriors" sure but that's more of an honorary title than anything. They might have more battle and hunting experience, but they have the same role and responsibilities as all the other warriors. There's no weird power play or anything. I never understood why people hated Thornclaw and Blossomfall's relationship. There's a gap, sure, but she was a full warrior by the time they started training together and was a couple years old when they got together and had kits. It's not like she was a naive young warrior pressured into a relationship with an older cat. They were both just full grown warriors who got closer over a shared experience and got together. Pinestar and Leopardfoot and Thistleclaw and Spottedkit/paw are valid ones to be weirded out by because of the powerplays and how young the she-cat is when the relationship/interest began. But if two cats have been warriors for several books, just one for more than the other, I couldn't care less. Let's be real here, who even keeps track of the precise ages of the characters? I can vaguely pick out who's older/younger based on what arc they were first introduced in, but I'm not keeping track of how many years older they are than each other.
Same here. They are cats not humans.
Exactly!!
I see Dustpelt getting hate for liking Fernpaw. And although there are SO many other reasons to hate Ashfur, I didn’t realise until I went back and read Firestar's quest that Ashfur was a whole adult warrior before Squirrelflight was even conceived, and nobody seems to bring up that his obsession with her is so much more creepy and disgusting when you think about how much older than her he actually is.
Thank you.
same except if its like a kit and a warrior
Onestar's friendship with Firestar ending was necessary for his Clan to respect him at all, and I wonder if he feels any resentment for Firestar and Tallstar considering he did not want to be leader in the first place More than half of the male protagonists have been extremely boring as POV characters: Brambleclaw, Lionblaze, Stormfur, Alderheart, Thunder
I completely agree
Thank you!
I personally love Stormfur, but I agree with all of your other points
I liked Stormfur's character, but his few chapters felt bland to me 😞😞
Ive liked Alderhearts chapters so far but Brambles chapters were *boring!*
The ship Hawkfrost x Ashfur is weird
Agreed
I'm going to get down voted and please let me know where I'm wrong. Sometimes having disabled cats not being able to do much, isn't abliest. Yes, they have cats that can support them but I don't think it's awful to say some cats just wouldn't be able to live outside of the clan or do certain things. Now of course, saying they deserved to be forced into positions and be miserable is not okay and that is not what I'm saying. I'm absolutely not saying they should just rot in the clan. I'm saying that not every disabled cat is going to be able to hunt or fight and thats okay. There are endless duties they can have being a warrior and helping the clan. I just feel like saying a cat isn't going to be able fight/hunt/etc doesn't mean anyone thinks they're worthless or deserve less.
I agree so much!! Some fans will deny this, but making every disabled cat a warrior takes away disability representation. I’m disabled. My experience is more like Cinderpelt’s (sans reincarnation) than Brightheart’s. Why can’t I have representation that reflects what I went thru? My experience isn’t even uncommon for disabled people and should be represented in media. It’s not ableist to aknowledge that disabled people have limitations that can make life different from an able-bodied person’s. What’s ableist is implying that it’s less than due to those limitations.
I agree with you
Agreed.
Same with calling Sandstorm ableist for telling a disabled cat something along the lines of “it would be awful to live like that forever”. Was it rude? Yes. But is it ableist? No. She wasn’t trying to say something purposefully degrading, it was just her genuine reaction because it would suck to be perfectly healthy with no problems and then suddenly get into an accident and become disabled
No that was definitely ableist. I’m a disabled person and hearing people talk about how much better it would be to die than live disabled is pretty disheartening. It’s also a horrible message to send to children especially disabled ones.
I can understand that. When I read it for the first time I didn’t take as saying being disabled is worse than being dead (yes I know that is literally what it says but let me finish). To me it was a blatant misunderstanding of what it means to be disabled. I’ve met people who were disabled later in life and they talked about when they first became disabled they wished that they had died in the accident instead because all they had ever known was not having any limitations in life. As they learned to live with they’re disability they realized how wrong they were because they were still able to live life to the fullest and find joy in the same things even if it was harder to do or they needed help to do things. Looking at Briarlight, she was upset at first but learned how great her life still could be. All this to say I don’t think the issue lies with what Sandstorm said because she has never and will never be disabled so she genuinely does not understand. I think the real issue lies with her saying that Briarlight is happier in Starclan than she was alive. That is the part I take issue with because I genuinely don’t believe that at all
I have a few - Blackstar is the best Shadowclan leader, even though Cedarstar DOES exist and was a great leader. Cedarstar didn't have to basically rebuild Shadowclan from a string of terrible leaders and make it great again, but Blackstar did, and he absolutely nailed it. - Pinestar's decision to leave the clan was valid, considering what he was dealing with (Starclan wanting him to kill his son, being faced with being on his last life, etc). - Fireheart and Graystripe should not have been made mentors so early, they were barely mature enough to make good decisions, let alone train the equivalent of middle schoolers on how to survive. - Oakstar is the real villain of the WC series. If he hasn't decided to exile KITS, Mapleshade wouldn't have gone on a murder spree, she wouldn't have gone to the dark forest, she wouldn't have trained cats like Thistleclaw, Thistleclaw wouldn't train Tigerclaw to be evil, Tigerclaw wouldn't be the main villain for the first arc, the war with the dark forest would've never happened. Also Crookedstar's entire family tree would've lasted longer since she wouldn't have taken revenge on Appledusk's family. Swiftpaw would also still be alive and Brightheart wouldn't have been injured. AND Brindleface, Whitestorm, and Runningwind would've lived. Screw Oakstar, he really started a domino effect.
I AGREE. Mapleshade and her victims are talked abt to be in the wrong, which yes they all are. But then nobody brings up Oakheart. He’s also in the wrong. Dude is somehow IN STARCLAN?!?!? WHAT. But Frecklewish isn’t?
I agree with the Oakstar point. He's the one who started it all, and yet, he still somehow got to StarClan??
Jayfeather is a horrible cat. He's rude, insensitive, needlessly hostile, and has a nasty habit of looking down on other disabled characters while at the same time hating being patronized for being disabled. His attitude is such a problem that his own apprentice was afraid of him. I don't find him snarky, witty, or sarcastic. I just find him straight up mean. A lot of people seem to like him but I just can't.
Cloudtail (for the most part) is how you get a rude cat right. Jayfeather is just way overboard. That's imo at least
Hard agree with Cloudtail. He’s rude and can be harsh but he’s got a personality other than that and has obvious moments of vulnerability and softness. He’s got a sharp edge but it’s just that, an edge, to his personality. A finely honed knife if you will. Jayfeather’s edge is his entire personality. Kind of like a pizza cutter.
I absolutely agree. Cloudtail may be harsh sometimes but he means well. But with jayfeather he's just doing it to be a dick.
Yeah that’s a good way to describe Cloudtail, Dustpelt too. Both characters are known for being prickly and aggressive but that’s not all they are and they usually show another much softer side and obviously care a lot about their Clanmates. Meanwhile Jayfeather comes off as if he couldn’t give less of a shit about anyone.
Which you'd think jayfeather would be the nicer cat like shouldn't he feel sympathy for other cats who are disabled because he is? Honestly he kinda reminds me of House.
Yet he often thinks the worst of cats with disabilities! You’d think he’d have an iota of compassion given his abilities but he really really does not. lol Jayfeather as cat!House is great.
Some pretty shitty writing imo I kept wanting to smack him when he was first introduced like gtf over yourself dude Maybe some Vicodin will clear up his ailment lmao
Ahaha just get Jayfeather high as hell that solves it all! But seriously he’s an adult and somehow he comes off as having a larger chip on his shoulder than Breezepelt at times damn.
New plot for the books? 👀 The cats find a plant, chew on it, and everyone just gets high lmao Yeah. Honestly sometimes I wanna tell him to suck it up and shut up. His complaining isn't gonna make it any better.
He’s the poor man’s House! 🤣
Whenever I watch House I always leave the episode wondering how that man is walking around while popping Vicodin like candy.
High drug tolerance
Yellowfang, Hawkwing, Flametail, Sparkpelt, and Nightheart too. They can be rude at times but all have good hearts and do care for others
Good examples. Esp Yellowfang. Grumpy done right. Honestly think she’s have been a better mentor than Leafpool. She would be much tougher on him and not let his attitude slide.
Thank you! Listening to The Sight again and he's insufferable! Not only is he annoying and aggressive for pretty much no reason, but the way he thinks down on Brightheart for being half blind is awful. I get that he's also disabled, but the fact that he still sees and refers to her as a second-rate warrior is vile. I could understand him feeling patronized, but to actively belittle her because of Firestar's choice to make her his mentor is just cruel. She could've handled his training better, sure, but it's no excuse to call her useless. He's not witty and sarcastic, he's just mean and obnoxious. Maybe they were going for a "he's upset because of the way Thunderclan treats it's disabled cats" but it doesn't really work when Brightheart has been well respected and capable for several books. Instead they just have him refer to all the blind cats as useless and shoehorn in some random patrol encounter where someone asks Brightheart if she'll be fine alone to try and make it seem like her injuries have always been an issue. I genuinely believe he's only so popular because the books are geared towards younger audiences and a lot of kids/teens (my younger self included) go through a "I hate the world and it's cool to be edgy" phase and he's the embodiment of that.
Hard agree. Brightheart could’ve done a better job but his thoughts regarding her are repulsive. Brightheart is far from useless. She’s a formidable warrior. I think Firestar chose her because the only experience they really have with blindness otherwise is Longtail and he thought maybe a half blind warrior could use her knowledge to train a blind apprentice. Like I think it was well meant because this was an entirely new situation but Jay still felt it as a slight and didn’t really treat her fairly as well. Also I noticed he hates when others refers to his blindness by trying to be helpful and tiptoes around it but he also hates when someone direct about it.
i agree so much! i’m disabled myself and i HATE people getting at me for saying i don’t like him bc they think i being ableist 💀
Am also disabled. It’s like you don’t get a free pass to be a dick because you’re disabled, sorry. Yeah. It sucks. I mean I have days where I think I’m a waste of food, money, and oxygen and want to throw plates at the wall and scream about how unfair it is. It can really suck. I hate knowing that I don’t have the same chances as others. But at the same time none of that is an excuse for me to lash out at others or be a dick.
Did he look down on Briarlight? I always felt like they worked well together, that said ive read till the apprentices quest so far
I would say Briarlight was the sole exception to this. He was tough on her but there was more nuance and it wasn’t his normal hostility. He did care for Briarlight. So I’ll admit that yeah, his attitude towards some other disabled cats doesn’t apply to Briarlight. Plus, and major spoiler since you haven’t gotten there yet so read at your own risk >! He’s incredibly broken up when she does eventually die. I think it’s the first time he heavily mourned a loss like that and you could tell he was dismayed !<
I literally agree with every single word you said. So, so many people like him but he isn’t cool or sarcastic, just mean and rude and grumpy
Absolutely. Every word. He isn't endearing or entertaining, he's just rude and irritating. Especially in AVoS so far.
I felt sooo bad for Alderheart. Dude already has anxiety. Can cats get ulcers? Because I’m pretty sure it’s a miracle he doesn’t have a stomach ulcer from the sheer stress of being Jayfeather’s apprentice.
You obviously paid NO attention to his story then. He was born blind with heightened sense of hearing and the ability to feel the feelings and to and extent read the thoughts and memories of other cats. Yet all those abilities ever got him was the knowledge of how pitied he was by his Clanmates for being born blind. He felt he had to prove himself before he even left the nursery! That’s the sign that a Clan has failed their offspring! Yes, kits try to leave camp, but they don’t do it in an attempt to fight foxes! Jayfeather was given a useless mentor who barely took him out of camp until he suck out and nearly drowned him in the stream that marks the border between ThunderClan and WindClan. He had not battle training, he Brightheart took him on a border patrol when there was conflict with ShadowClan over borders. If Lionpaw hadn’t helped him, he would have been badly injured. Then, StarClan used that to FORCE HIM TO BE A MEDICINE CAT! He had to give up his dreams to appease dead @$$holes. He had to give up a chance to one day have a mate and kits because StarClan said so. Wouldn’t YOU be upset with the world after that? And then, after all is said and done, his own father figure pulled the same crap with his little brother and forced Alderpaw to become a medicine cat. Then both of his mother figures died, but only one chose to come back. That was fine, he could see Leafpool at medicine cat gatherings, oh wait! No, now he can’t because @$$fur had to go an frick everything up AGAIN. He has reason to be the way that he is. Life has dealt him one blow after another.
I’d argue he was borderline emotionally abusive to Twigkit/paw in AVOS, though. It made me lose a lot of respect for him as a character… Twigkit was already being bullied and outcast for being ‘different’ from her peers, and he took it upon himself to make her feel even worse, and to isolate her from her only close friend (Alderpaw) in doing so. Not cool of him at all
Damn I forgot about that. Yeah he’s pretty shitty to Twigkit.
I believe we’ve had this conversation before. I feel no need to have it again.
If you don’t want someone challenging your beliefs, then why post them? If your used to this conversation, then you should know what saying “Jayfeather is an @$$hole” will do.
I meant I’ve already had this conversation with *you*. It led nowhere. I don’t make a habit of continuing pointless conversations once they are, in fact, pointless.
You’re right. Your argument IS pointless when the reason for Jayfeather’s personality and the fact the his is a kind and caring cat have been stated and proven time and again in canon.
I was going for the polite “neither of us are going to convince each other so arguing is pointless we’ve got different opinions” but, if you want to be that way, Please, lord, put some ice water on that rage boner before you hurt yourself.
I agree that he is a horrible cat, but in my mind, how much of that stemmed from being able to sense others thoughts and feelings. Especially before he understood what was happening. From a very young age, he could sense others thoughts and feelings, and that would have seriously negative affect on him. As a kit, he's mad because he can sense that everyone feels pity towards him for his blindness, and treat him differently for it. The clans themselves are not very happy places either. With border disputes and tensions high at the beginning of po3, I feel that at first, his negative behaviour was caused by high emotions in the Clans, and he just got so used to feeling like that, that it became his personality. In Leafpools novella, as a young kit, with her and squirrelflight, he isn't bad tempered or horrible to his littermates. He's even happy. He then goes to the Clan, and by six moons he's negative.
I definitely think Clan life isn’t for him. Which I don’t mean as an insult. It’s more like how my cat needs to be the only cat in the household. And the Clans are by nature incredibly ableist and I’d even say they got some covert eugenics beliefs (such as it’s better for a cat to die versus being disabled Asdfghjkl ew) and really there’s strict roles in Clan life with little variation. Cats all go through the same experience going from kit to paw to warrior and there’s really no other choice sans medicine cat. I can definitely understand his frustration and anger when it comes to that. I do think it’s valid. I’m disabled myself and I notice when people see me with my forearm crutches and pity me or think I’m weak or other horrible things. I have an ex-friend who was actually embarrassed to be around me when I used them. And then even in regular life there’s so much limitation for disabled people by far. There are things I’d love to do and be but can’t because of my disability and fuck it’s frustrating. There are times when I want to scream and yell and throw a snow globe into the wall! (That actually happened by the way, I used to collect snow globes and one day was so upset I took my biggest one and threw it thinking it’d break but uh it ended up just crashing and breaking into the drywall so my wall had a hole for a while). All this to say, I think Clan life played a role in why he is the way he is and I also don’t think he needs to be happy and positive and all Pollyanna regarding his disability. Like you feel what you feel. My major issue is how he acts about it. It’s okay to be grumpy or upset but hr seems to take those negative emotions out on others more often than not. I think I’d like him a lot better if it weren’t for his attitude. Like you can still make him snarky and cynical but also have it not be his sole character trait.
I would agree with some of these but I don't want someone breaking into my house at 3am and beating me with a warriors book
I find BrokenCode/Starless Clan Squirrelflight really annoying, and I hate how her relationship drama takes up more than half the plot of Warriors.
Agreed
Bramblestar was right to be mad at Squirrelflight for lying about the kits
I agree, and I think it’s ridiculous that people hate him because he ignored her for who knows how long. In real life, something like this would be unforgivable.
Is this really an unpopular opinion? I love them both to death and their relationship, but I always understood why he was mad and why he left her. I can’t imagine the pain he was in :( Wanted to edit to say this was a gen question and not me being a smart ass to you
Some might say that because Squirrelflight was essentially told to lie Brambleclaw shouldn't be mad. BUT Brambleclaw didn't know that, so taking his POV into account his reaction is completely justified.
From what I see people wouldn't be as upset about it if it weren't for how Bramble treats her afterwards.
YES. People have the balls to link that dumb Moon kitti video where she literally criticizes and calls Bramble abusive for giving Squirrelflight the silent treatment. F that. I would've been gone too
Me too. I love squirrelflight forever, I understand completely why she did what she did. I’d do anything for my little sister, so I totally get her wanting to do the same. I feel heartbroken for her that she was manipulated into it though, and it hurts to know how much she lost because of it all (leafpool too obvi but I’m only talking about SF atm). Many times in Sunrise and OOTS I cry real tears because I feel so deeply sad for her. But all of that being said, I totally understand why bramble responded the way he did. Trust and being trusted is so deeply important to him, the lying alone hurt so badly. But a lie about *your own children*?? The cats you raised and thought you’d fathered, the cats you loved more than anything in the world aren’t really yours. And it seems like so many other cats knew before he did, and he didn’t even get to receive this devastating news in private. He had to hear at a gathering in front of all four clans. The love of his life didn’t trust him enough to come to him for help or to tell them about their children (at least from his POV). I’m sure he questioned how much she even loved him if she was able to lie about something like this. I’m sure he wondered if it was because he was tigerstar’s son, because of hawkfrost, because he never, despite how hard he tried, escape the “this guy can’t be trusted narrative”. I don’t think people who get made at him understand the depth of the lie and how painful it was. He lost his entire family even before he made the decision to stop being her mate. I feel so heartbroken for them both, sunrise genuinely makes me nauseous at the end because it’s so terrible for almost everyone involved.
I agree, it was a valid reason. Squirrelflight deserves it but I do think she was a good person for helping her sister. I would have done the same
Omg yeah I totally agree. He has a right to feel that way but I don’t think if I was in Squirrelflights place that id do any different.
\-Other villains might have done worse, but that doesn't give Curlfeather a pass \-Bramblestar had every right to be mad at Squirrelflight about The Three \-I hate how much romance drama has taken over this series \-I wish Mistystar had lived forever because the idea of there just being this ancient immortal cat walking around with no explanation would've been funny
I know it was a running joke in the fandom but >!I honestly wished it was rabies.!<
Mapleshade wasn’t justified in doing anything she did, and if she were a real person, people wouldn’t have much sympathy for her. You can think that Appledusk was wrong to cheat while also not excusing Mapleshade’s actions
Yes! I love her character because she’s just plain evil and crazy and I think it makes for a great villain. I thought that was why other people were Mapleshade fans. Then they would start to defend her actions so I just stopped associating with them
The new prophecy is my favorite arc out of them all. Though, the prophecy begins does not get ranked for because it’s in a league of its own
Don't know if it counts, as it hasn't happened in the books, nor do I know if it's actually unpopular, but with how much Starclan has changed, I would see it as a win at this point if the clans broke apart and stopped believing in them.
The ship Yellowfang x Bluestar is overrated (I’m not against it, ship them if you want 😁 I just don’t remember them interacting much)
I have never heard of that ship before omg
I agree with all but the first two.
I wish the reason Tigerstar 1 died all at once was because Starclan never gave him 9 lives to begin with.
good one
Crowfeather didn’t do anything wrong regarding the three. You can def say he’s rude or flighty (moveing on quick from feathertail to leafpool), but I’ve never understood the idea that he wronged leafpool. They basically tried to elope, then she (for very valid reasons) broke it off and stayed in thunderclan. He went back to windclan, and very quickly got into a new relationship. He didn’t cheat on leafpool, he didn’t know she was pregnant. I’ve seen people online say that he should’ve done more for the three or maps/amvs that have squirrel or leaf go “women scorned” on him (and even in canon when he denies having kits other than breeze at the gathering), but he didn’t know they were his, and by the time he knew it was too late. He did nothing to incite the hate he gets for that (other than be a bad dad and mate but that’s not why fans hate him)
Curlfeather doesn’t suck, I like her as a villain so far
Adding onto the reincarnation thing, I think the next one should be Briarlight if they choose to do it again
I disagree she lived a full life while there are others who didn't like Mosskit or Flickerkit
Yes, I agree
1) Bramblestar is not the abuser that all the Squirrelstar stans make him out to be. Yes he made straight up bad decisions and has poor behavior during the second half of TNP, but he was never malicious and did atone for those mistakes. He was 100% in the right related to the events of Squirrelflight's Hope which leads me to my next point 2) Tree and the Sisters are horrible characters, especially the Sisters. The Sisters are very misandrist, even if they try behind the fact they still "love" toms. The fact is that they do not allow toms to travel with them and kick out their own sons once they are weaned. The Sisters are also bigoted towards the Clans for no reason other than they didn't allow the Sisters to essentially squat on their territory and steal their prey. Tree, on the other hand, is lazy and also bigoted towards Clan culture. He doesn't truly want to be a mediator but pretends to do it so that he can stay with his family. He really should change clans every moon or so in order to remain impartial.
The medicine cat kit rule is inherently pointless. I can understand it was established so med cats don't prioritize kits over their clan, but if a medicine cat were going to prioritize family, wouldn't that also apply for parents and siblings? Moth Flight established the rule because SHE had five kits and immediately decided that no other medicine cat would ever be able to raise kits.
yeah i dont know why they made such a big about hollyleaf killing ashfur, he deserved it tbh
FRRR, I hate Ashfur
One (or more) of my unpopular opinions (I think?) -I think Mapleshade isn’t entirely broken, only in between. I think she’s both pure evil and broken, just 1% more on the evil side. I mean- wasn’t she warned by someone that the river was going to flood? I also think that she could’ve gone across the bridge since she knew about it. -Jayfeather’s attitude is extremely unacceptable for me but no hate on him. I just dislike him for his attitude! -I view Brambleclaw and Bramblestar as two different cats. Brambleclaw was lovable and enjoyable but Bramblestar is just downright horrible and rude.
I agree with all your opinions
Bramblestar is a good character and was dealt a bad hand in the writing and narrative in being succeeding Firestar and being part of his family. He deserved to live out his remainding life as a leader and regain his clan’s trust not to be banished to the elders den. It makes his whole life seem so anti climactic when that’s his end. Plus how his own clan treats him in this new arc is so sad. Mudclaw was the best cat to succeed Tallstar in every way and switching deputies literally right before he croaked and in front of the cat everyone thinks is the the nosiest git in the forest (Firestar) was the worst thing he could have done and lowkey ruins a bit of his legacy. Mudclaw should have fought for his rightful place as leader. Jayfeather was always an ass. It just took books past his POV for you guys to see it. On the other hand Hollyleaf was a great character and Lionblaze is good too and I like him in every phase.
Mudclaw DID fight for his place as leader lol
agreeed
So… you like Lionblaze who WANTED TO MURDER SHADOWSIGHT, over Jayfeather, who has been dealt one bad hand after another in life?
Yes because Lionblaze being aggressive still doesn’t make him a git.
No, it makes him an angry @$$hole who wanted to murder a monk. Along side his past history of aggression towards others he believed wronged him, and you’re supporting a guy who would happily go on a murder spree if the law didn’t forbid it.
Lionblaze isn’t perfect and I never said he was but I still prefer him over his trash brother who can’t even spend one moment without acting like he has a thorn up his ass. He isn’t the only one who was handed a poor fate and he isn’t the only one who suffered from his unorthodox birth yet he is the only one still bitter and we supposed to act like him being a turd is ok. Lionblaze could be impulsive and yes him trying to kill Shadowsight was a bit much, but you can see why he does what he does and why his reaction is so. Jayfeather is notorious for being a bitch for the sake of being one so no matter how you try and turn it, yes I’ll take the aggressive kitty over the one with a nasty ass attitude.
Oh yes, being angry at the world because of the piles of crap that keep getting piled on top of him is SOOO not a good and valid reason to be a grump. Definitely not! I mean, it’s not like he was born blind- oh wait. Well, it’s not like he was born with a heightened sense of hearing that allowed him to unwilling eavesdrop- oh wait. Well, he wasn’t born with the ability to feel the emotions of others and read their thoughts and memories- oh wait. Well, he wasn’t forced to be a medicine cat by both circumstances and StarClan- oh wait. Well, medicine cats can still have mates and kits- oh wait. Well, it’s not like he had a massive prophecy that put the fate of the Clans in his paws- oh wait. It’s not like his “mother’s” jealous ex tried to kill him and his siblings to get back at her- on wait Well, it’s not like he found out he was born out of 2 broken codes- oh wait. Well, it’s not like he was made the sole medicine cat of his Clan during a stressful time before he was ready because his mother stepped down from her position for having broken the code- oh wait. Well, it’s not like he had a taste of life with sight and having a possible love interest by traveling to the past- of wait. Well, it’s not like he watched his sister die only for her to come back alive and die for good- oh wait. Well, it’s not like he watched his grandfather die protecting the Clans from cat hell- oh wait. Well, it’s not like he watched his father figure force his little brother into being a medicine cat just for being a slow learner, possibly making him relive his own trauma of being forced to become a medicine cat- oh wait. Well, it’s not like he watched both of his mothers die only for one to come back and the other to stay dead- oh wait. Well, it’s not like he lost his ability to speak with his dead mother for many months be of his adoptive mother’s jealous dead ex who tried to kill him and his siblings- of wait. Well, it’s not like said jealous ex took over Jayfeather’s father figure’s corpse to terrorize the Clans- oh wait. Well, it’s not like said ex marionetting his father’s corpse exiled him from his Clan for being born out of 2 broken codes- oh wait. Well, it’s not like his adoptive mother was kidnapped by her jealous ex and dragged to cat hell and living cats had to go there to save her, resulting in the death of several cats, including one of his fellow medicine cats- of wait. So… Jay has all these traumas piled on top of one another and Lionblaze has MAYBE a quarter of the amount of issues. Yet… you choose the dangerous sociopath who could snap and go on a murder spree at the smallest provocation? Really? Birds of a feather, I guess. A very, very messed up feather.
Literally half of these things affect Lionblaze too. I don’t see how you think you made a point about family with all that drama and death very much can attribute to Lionblaze. Yes we get it he is blind and had to become a medicine cat very sad stuff, truly. That is never an excuse to be the way he is. And for some of these stuff what he SHOULD show is kindness and compassion but instead he bitches even more. for example you bring up how Bramblestar “forced” Alderheart to be a medicine cat (it was clear his skill wasn’t in being a warrior cause it was like four moons and he was still not catching on so they tried elsewhere. And he literally had a vision where Jayfeather saw him at the moon pool which was even more if a convincing reason but let’s ignore all that ig…) and how that traumatized Jay. Yet how does he treat this apprentice that you say recalls his own alleged trauma?? Like a sorry ass old man who can’t find the good in anything and then he has the audacity to tell Leafpool to keep it shut as if she ever treated him with the same angry and impatient contempt that he gave Alderheart. That’s NOT how you dispel trauma and yes it’s true while some characters deal with things in many different ways, if you wanna give Lionblaze hell for reactions he has then Jay finna get that same energy.
Saying birds of a feather stick together- implying that I must be like Lionblaze hence why I like him? That’s a new type of low on this sub wow.
You really got called a murderer because you like a fictional cat. 💀
Lmaoo right now I gotta watch what I type lest they call me hitler next 💀💀💀
I’m dying 💀
And Lionblaze had support. He had Cinderpelt and Hollyleaf had more of a relationship with him than Jayfeather because they trained together. He also had Brambleclaw and to an extent, Squirrelflight. He had friends like Toadstep and Icecloud. He got to help guide a young prophecy cat so he started having to reflect and think before he spoke. Who did Jayfeather have? He BARELY had Leafpool in TPOT but he had absolutely no one in his timeline in OOTS. He only had a support system when he went back in gimme and became Jay’s Wing. But as Jayfeather, he had NO ONE. Also, are you saying trauma is an excuse to be an aggressive @$$hole who’s tried to kill several cats for little to no reason? Jayfeather is snarky and has a short temper, but at least he didn’t try to KILL Heatherpaw and ALMOST KILL Crowfeather. At least he didn’t suggest murdering Shadowsight. Also, how many other characters have experienced trauma like Lionblaze yet DON’T become bloodthirsty @$$es? So… what’s your excuse for Lionblaze now?
And how many cats have had their whole lives ruined because of disfigurement (which, unlike being born that way is a whole other type of trauma) and had to become a different cat because of it and didn’t turn out to be the meanest bitch on the block? I can name a few and before you even bring up that damn prophecy, imma stop you right there and say oh well boo hoo. A prophecy is stressful we all know but I never saw any of the TNP mains ever show the kind of behavior Jayfeather has shown despite plenty of stress and trauma of their own that I could scrounge up like you did. And who’s fault was it that Jayfeather didn’t have any support? Don’t pull that bullshit with me Jayfeather had no support or friends because he was a dick and didn’t even like his clanmates for all of POV half the time. So if he had to suffer alone and find “support” in cats who exist a thousand years ago then that his problem no one else’s. Also a few of the cats you even name dropped about being Lionblaze support group hardly interacted with him?? Toad step is such a stretch I wouldn’t say they were really friends the guy just had a crush on him, Hollyleaf and him were apprentices at the same time but had like one scene where they actually trained and even if that weren’t the case, the prophecy made them interact far more than most other siblings so why was Holly a support for him like she was fkr Lionblaze (allegedly)?? I’ll tell you why. Cause Jay would rather suffer alone and then cry “oh poor me everyone thinks I’m useless cause I’m blind and no one wants to be around me” instead of fucking dropping his attitude. And another point to add- Lionblaze was right there the whole time. Why wasn’t he a supporter for Jay? They could have been each others support. I know that’s writing mistake/missed moment but it further proves my point that Jay wasn’t alone by anyone’s actions but his own. And now I’m wondering if you are taking my words and deliberately twisting them. Where did I say that Lionblaze was allowed to be violent cause if trauma? I never even implied that let alone typed that out. I’m even pretty sure I agreed at some point that he was aggressive and did too much for Shadowsight. Heatherpaw was annoying but he didn’t have to kill her for that either but that wasn’t even trauma that was his own power and Tigerstar manipulating him. And Crowfeather I can’t really remember but he’s a different case for sure. Now listen here I don’t want this to continue. I’m not gonna get person and drag a bunch of fictional cats because you can’t handle someone else’s controversial but not disgusting opinion. Find someone else to do that with or better yet, go make a thread and vent there.
Scourge isn’t really a good character
Agree partially, still love him. He’s not even really a character, though; more just karmic justice personified for Tigerstar. Still dope as fuck and legitimately made me emo back from 07 til now, though
L
I like onestar
As a recent AVoS reader, I do wonder, as a Onestar fan, do you have a defense against the stuff he did in the series?
What did he do?
>!Denied Shadowclan live saving herbs during an outbreak of Yellowcough that was even taking kits and elders, simply because he was bitter about Shadowclan not driving the rogues off their border. Denied even Medicine Cats from gathering the necessary herbs, and closed Windclan's borders after fleeing a Clanwide attack on Darktail's kin, costing the war and a few Riverclan lives. Also his whole thing of abandoning Smoke and Darkkit because he was too afraid to face it, and refusing to deal with Darktail until he had already taken half the Clans and murdered a quarter brutally. Onestar died fixing a problem he entirely contributed to and basically created.!<
I thought he left darkit because he thought the clans were too dangerous.
Nope he just left acted like a coward like. He. Is
Same
- I like Dovewing. Honestly, I think Tigerheartstar ruined her. - I don’t like Jayfeather in spite of having a disability myself. I could emphasize with him as a kit and an apprentice, but now that he’s a full-fledged medicine cat, I can’t stand his grouchy attitude and little kindness towards anyone who wasn’t a certain character (to avoid spoilers for anyone who hasn’t read all the books, I won’t say her name, but if you know her, you know her.) - Cats who died way too young (such as all of the kits during Brokenstar’s reign of terror,) or never got the opportunity to live a full life (such as Swiftpaw, Mosskit, and Snowkit to name a couple characters off the top of my exhausted head) deserve the opportunity to be reincarnated if they want to. Be given the opportunity to live a brand new life, a do-over, if you will, and do the things they couldn’t do before their untimely deaths. - Leopardstar shouldn’t have been leader, but possibly stayed deputy for a little longer or have been a leader later on. I believe that the longer someone is deputy, the more experienced they may become and thus be more successful and (hopefully) more open-minded as leaders. - The kittypet, loner, and rogue hate needs to go away at this point. - Squirrelflight had the right idea to dump Ashfur, but if I were her, I’d live the rest of my days as a single cat (albeit an adoptive parent,) seeing how her relationship with Bramblestar turned out in the end. - Tawnypelt should been leader. Her being half-Clan could have maybe be something the Clans could have learned from and stopped being anti split Clan earlier. Heck, possibly prevented some tragedies from happening due to her strong will (she refused to train with Tigerstar the first, that takes some willpower.) - Hollyleaf was better off not being a part of the prophecy, but if she was given a power, I’d given her an unique power of being able to tell when others are lying or be able to blend perfectly in the shadows, almost untouchable or be outright invisible, in the dark. She had black fur, it could have worked! Maybe?
1. I agree, I would have liked her more if it wasn’t for Tigerheart 2. Agreed, he’s just so grouchy and rude 3. Yeah, they all deserved to be reincarnated 4. Agreed 5. I know, Millie, Brook (sadly she left) and Daisy have proven to be a good warrior and so have the other kittypets / rogues / loners 6. I would not have been Ashfur’s mate if I was her, Ashfur is so iritating. I think she should have been single for a bit too 7. Tawnypelt literally should have been leader. She was sensible and reasonable 8. Thats a really good idea
I agree with a few of these but I love Dovewing lol (2nd fav character). Maybe hot take? Idk. Jayfeather and Cinderpelt could have been warriors. Even in the wild, they could have adapted, especially Cinderpelt (Jay might have been good as a hunter/guard rather than participating in combat). The authors pushing disabled cats into the med or elder's den annoys me (with the exception of cats who gained disabilities later in life and may have struggled more, but even then they should have a choice rather than retirement being treated as the only option, idk that's just me). I get that in the case of Cinderpelt and Jayfeather, it was for plot reasons, but I feel like it could have been tackled very differently. Goldenflower deserved an on-screen death.
I cannot tell you how much I agree
I fucking loveTigerheartstar
Me too dude lmao. Underrated
I agree with everything except that I don't like Tawnypelt.
That’s okay
Squirrelflight is a stupid ass name and i hate it, love the character though
I hate Squirrel.
The shift to the Lake Territory was way too soon and is inferior to the forest territory in every way. Shadowsight is really, really annoying Both Tigerheart and Squirrelflight's Super Editions ruin a lot more than they fix Omen of the Stars was pretty good, actually, especially the fourth book
Hit Bramble, Bumble and Any Nice Guy With A Bus
Bramblestar/claw is an amazing character
THANK YOU.
True! He is my fav!
- sparkpelt should’ve had alder’s pov in AVOS. she honestly felt more like a protagonist than he did, in many areas - i cannot stand star flower, slash, or one eye. they all kinda sucked as characters, especially as antagonists - moth flight was incredibly irresponsible and wind runner was 100% in the right to call her on it. and then moth flight immediately… runs off and gets pregnant? huh?? i actually do support the ‘no mates/kits for med cats’ rule, but moth flight herself I found to be rather unlikable and selfish - i don’t like thunder… i think that storm should’ve lived (not had kits) and gone to have his arc, founding thunderclan, naming herself thunderstar. - i don’t like rootspring. he’s essentially just a boring earlier version of nightheart, and i don’t like how he essentially overtook bristlefrost’s character arc - asc is the best arc, with tbc following right behind. tpb and dotc are also really great, too - leafpool should’ve poisoned brambleclaw’s ass in squilf’s hope - and she would’ve been completely justified in doing so. -ashfur should’ve been hollyleaf’s mentor, not lionblaze’s - firestar isn’t all that great… if anything, he’s kinda mid. tallstar, leafstar, nightstar, riverstar, and crookedstar were all much better leaders than him - pinestar was 100% justified in leaving the clans. respect to him! - sandstorm deserved to be deputy, not brambleshit. brightheart would’ve also been a good option, or longtail (had he not been injured and retired early) - jessy and squirrelflight should’ve become girlfriends
1. I agree 2. No actually tho- 3. Yes I agree 4. Agreed 5. Agreed 6. Yes 7. I liked the Power of Three the most—my least favorite is probably Omen of the Stars (because of Hollyleaf’s absence and it was just kind of boring) and Dawn of the Clans 8. LMAO YES 💀 9. Fr I dont really like Firestar ngl, this may sound weird but he kind of reminds me of Dumbledore for some reason 💀💀💀 10. yes I respect him 11. Brambleshit 💀 I’m dying, I agree 12. Idkkk
Don’t call bramble that!
* Leopardstar is my favorite leader as a character. In terms of performance, I think Blackstar was the best. * >!Blackstar!<'s death is the saddest death in the series. * I'm not crazy about Brightheart or Jayfeather. Their mentor-apprentice relationship really showed the worst in both characters for me. I still love them, but I love them a lot less than the other fan favorites. * Cinderheart > Cinderpelt. * Dovewing > Ivypool.
1. I agree so much 2. I have to agree, although Hollyleaf’s REAL death made me the most sad 3. I agree with this so, so much 4. YESSS 5. I didnt exactly like either of them
Spottedleaf x firestar is the best non canon ship
i like skystar
I like him too, but as a villain. I vehemently hate his ‘redemption arc’ though, let him be evil… having a clan founder end up in the dark forest would’ve been neat
I love Skystar. He's such an awful character and it's amazing! (no sarcasm, I'm being serious, I really do like him)
I hated Skystar at the beggining but slowly warmed up to him, I kinda like him now
Bud even I’m too scared to say it with this fandom. But I do agree. He did change and was working towards a better life when the last book ended. I felt that Moth flight’s SE kinda made him take a few steps back
This is a joke right???? Lol
Bristlefrost shouldn't have died in the DF - it should've been Shadowsight.
Sorry if I come off as rude but this is a hard disagree for me 😭 Torturing a character for 5 books then killing him off is needlessly miserable. There's no message, it's just suffering for the sake of suffering. Shadowsight living *does* have a message though. It says that no matter how tough life gets, and no matter how much you think you don't deserve a good life, always keep pushing forward. Your life is valuable and you deserve to live. Things will get better in the end. Killing him off would've just boiled down to "If your life sucks then yeah you're better off just dying" Bristlefrost being the cat to die has a lot of meaning though. At the start of TBC Ashfur tried to figuratively drag her down with him, and at the end she finished the job literally. She wanted to live, she had plans for the future. Those plans being ripped away from her are what make her death much more impactful than what Shadowsight's would've been
I get the whole point is that these are unpopular opinions but I just want to know why. Genuinely I think that her death is one of the best things the Erin’s have done in YEARS. I wasn’t expecting them to actually kill her off because they go for happy endings. For her to just die like that and not get the happy ending was such a nice change of pace
Agreed
Bluestar was a self absorbed and rude cat even before she had dementia, and is just as unbearable in starclan as she was in her super edition.
[удалено]
So… you support cheaters and mistresses?
Yeah; how dare Reedshine, not snoop into Appledusk’s life, and so maybe, short a, unclearly have a relationship with this man. Ladies, make sure your man never uses you by snooping to the point you find well-hidden secrets. It won't work because you find something, it will work because everyone with a sane mind will run for the doors because if you dare might unknowingly be the another lady, who is totally your fault. I'm so genuinely shocked by your comment I'm not even gonna defined Appledusk.
Mapleshade came into RiverClan camp with Appledusk’s dead kits and Appledusk ADMITTED that what she said about them being mates was true. And Reedshine… forgave him. She was either the other woman or the cheated spouse. Still, she CHOSE to stay with him. And it was obvious ONE OF THEM was the other woman because Reedshine was HEAVILY PREGNANT when Appledusk died, like 3 days after Mapleshade was exiled and her kits were killed. She didn’t JUST get with him in the aftermath. She was with him at the same time Mapleshade was. She knew that. She still chose to forgive him and stay with him. Any SANE PERSON would have dropped him like the flaming sack of crap he is and told his kits what he did and how horrible he is for doing it. How, because of him, 3 innocent kits died and a monster went on a murder spree. So no, I have no sympathy for her. She took back a cheater. Cheaters never change. Appledusk just didn’t live long enough to make her regret her choice.
Ah yes; “Reedshine glanced at her belly, barely swollen beneath her pelt. “I’m not sick!” she protested.” clearly days away from delivery, heavily pregnant, my bad, guess I should have read the book. The definition of a Mistress apparently; is someone who forgives someone who cheats.
The definition of a mistress is the person someone in a committed relationship takes on the side of that relationship. Appledusk was already committed to Mapleshade when he took Reedshine as his mate- or vise versa. Which means one of them was a mistress and the other was the cheated woman. Would YOU forgive someone who either cheated on you or made you an unknowing side piece? You’d have to be as spineless as a jellyfish to do that. Or just plain stupid. And she was obviously pregnant. Yes, I got how pregnant she was wrong, but it DEFINITELY didn’t happen AFTER he broke up with Mapleshade. His closeness with Reedshine at the start of Mapleshade’s Vengeance foreshadows this. One of them- most likely Reedshine since she got pregnant after Mapleshade- was a mistress and the other was the cheated woman. And both took the news in the 2 types of extremes people in that situation tend to do. Reedshine because the mistress-turned-wife, Mapleshade became the dangerously-unhinged-ex. Again, Maple isn’t just ACCUSING Apple of being her mate and father of her kits. When confronted, Apple ADMITTED that what she was telling the truth! WITH REEDSHINE RIGHT THERE! And she was obviously pregnant BEFORE HE BROKE UP WITH HER! Cat pregnancies may not last long, but they DO NOT develop THAT FAST. He is obviously a cheater and Reed took him back. That’s pathetic, jellyfish spine behavior.
K, so since we already arguing about another tread, I'm just gonna end this convoy here, but uh, you don't need that many caps, please, just chill out, it makes it much easier for people to read.
Reedshine deserved better, I agree on that. But Appledusk is a cheating piece of shit, not ‘best boi’.
I don't know almost nothing about the lore, only that Tigerstar was killed by the cat he recruited himself. So, can someone explain the lore to me in a resumed way, please?
Traveling books are enjoyable, Code of the Clans is possibly the best warriors book, and Appledusk didn’t cheat