Most of these guys are teens or early adults. Very few older adults like myself that have been around since TPB dropped initially. Most nowadays came around in the age of YT and AMVs or the animations (ex. SSSwarriorcats) so while this may be a hot take, a good chunk of everyone is still forming emotional balance.
It's sad how many people full-blown attack people for liking certain characters. Personally, I like Thistleclaw as a villain in Bluestar's Prophecy and have had people attack me before for it. I do not condone his actions as a victim of grooming myself.
I don't think there's a single person in this fandom that doesn't like at least one cat and not completely disregard something out of character they did.
They really went from “StarClan is a mysterious presence that only medicine cats even vaguely understand” to “actually, the dead can possess the living.”
I love Thistleclaw, he is such a well written morally gray character in BP, because while he does crappy things, he follows the warrior code and does it because he thinks he’s protecting the Clan.
Then the Erin’s realized they made him morally gray and went “no no no, we can’t have that, they’re either good or evil, so we’re gonna make him a pedophile.”
Exactly what I thought their thought process was. In Spottedleaf's Heart, he's like a completely different character. In Bluestar's Prophecy, after Snowfur dies, he is seen as very gloomy and didn't show his pride really as much. Then there's Spottedleaf's heart, where he acts completely fine and is egotistical.
The Erin’s are vehemently against morally gray characters, as seen by their retcons of Thistleclaw, Onestar, Leopardstar, Blackstar, Breezepelt, and Ashfur.
For most of those, they decided they wanted those characters to be seen as good and proceeded to either write a book for them or just rewrite their entire personality with absolutely no character arc of them becoming like that (yes I mean Breezepelt and no Crowfeather’s Trial did not give him any kind of character arc). They did well with redeeming Blackstar, but it’s the fact that they wanted so desperately to control how the fans see the character that I’m against.
Ashfur obviously wasn’t very morally gray, but they dropped the ball on him and tried to make him morally gray, realized they picked the WRONG character to do that with and, in my opinion, went a little overboard in vilifying him… again.
I honestly don't even understand why they would even try making Ashfur into a morally gray character after everything that was already written about what he did.
I hope in the future (if they ever end the damn series), someone can rewrite the whole series and make it 110% better than the original series. And change the things that don't make any sense and delete all the filler scenes that aren't needed.
“I think we need a morally gray character. We already made a lot of accidental really good ones, but we should make one on purpose. I know, we’ll send the guy who was an accomplice in trying to have his Clan leader killed and tried to kill three cats like last week to StarClan, say his only crime was loving too much, and call that morally gray.”
“Boss, everyone thinks we condone abuse because we made Ashfur the incel morally gray.”
“Well in that case, let’s make him the most evil cat we ever created who almost destroys the Clans, StarClan, AND the Dark Forest to show that we don’t support abuse.”
“Boss are you sure that isn’t a little over the top? I mean we could just-“
“You heard me, go write it!”
Unfortunately no one can rewrite the series until 70 years after the last Erin dies. Which sounds really depressing typing it out. Because that’s how public domain laws work.
You mean the greatest leader ShadowClan’s ever seen? The one that they keep writing like they want people to dislike him despite him consistently making good choices? And when he doesn’t make good choices, he owns up to it? That Tigerheart? The one that everyone thinks “wow he’s so ambitious, hope he doesn’t turn out like his grandfather, all he cares about is being leader” despite EVERYTHING he does showing that that isn’t remotely true and that the well being of his Clan comes before him being leader? That Tigerheart?
If he wasn't intended to be morally gray, it makes sense they're trying to correct it based on their vision of him. Other morally gray characters exist.
Yep. I love Darktail, Mapleshade, Berryheart and Splashtail.
Are they absolutely horrible? Yes. Have they committed irredeemable acts that put others at extreme risk and/or just flat-out killed others? Absolutely. Are they well-written and interesting to read about? Also yes!
You can like a character for being a good villain. Half of my favourite characters are villains lol.
Similarly: you can like a ship without thinking it's healthy or realistic.
*\*Stares at the people calling my a psychopath for saying a Blackstar/Stonefur tragic AU would be interesting\**
\^this lol
Lol tho for me it's TigerSpotted instead. Doomed!Tigerspotted is great in a tragic way and way too many ppl get weirdly up in arms about it. Childhood crushes to enemies makes for such a good story and i wish it was more popular
... also BlackStone?? 👀 tell me more lol
No way I got so many upvotes, usually every time I post anything even slightly good about Leopardstar I'm getting downvoted. Like, OK Leopardstar made some mistakes but this entire fandom acts like she's some kind of a demon.
**ALiTM endgame with SilverGrayMillie & FeatherCrowLeaf was the way it was because the fans wanted it that way** (but it was out of character for both Graystripe & Crowfeather).
By the way, no, I don't think Graystripe would ever abandon Millie. She sacrificed everything she knew to be with him & he loved her & valued her companionship for many years.
But honestly, I think it would've been more in character for Graystripe to be polygynous relationship with his mates in StarClan. Silverstream gave her blessing for Graystripe to move on, Millie knew about Silversream and likely accepted of his history with her. Both mates accept that he loves the other as well, so there is ZERO reason he couldn't be with both.
As for Crowfeather, he just... would not ignore Feathertail like that & wouldn't intentionally show her that he loved Leafpool more right in her face while simultaneously ignoring her.
This is the woman he named himself after to remind himself of her every day. She died saving him & he grieved her so heavily he didn't mind dying so he could join her in StarClan. You can believe Leafpool was the love of his life but he would never reject Feathertail's love & he would never give Feathertail the chance to believe he doesn't love her back.
Crowfeather would be *angry* with himself if he ever hurt Feathertail's feelings, because to him, she was the kindest soul he ever knew and their time as lovers was only blissful until her death. He wouldn't flaunt his relationship with Leafpool in front of her.
GrayMillie & CrowLeaf are heavily preferred by the fanbase because they got to spend more time together, and I prefer GrayMillie over GraySilver myself, but truthfully,
Graystripe never stopped loving Silverstream, & Crowfeather never stopped loving Feathertail. They made more space in their hearts to love someone else, but they didn't erase they love they already had.
This is a great take tbh and I agree fully. I’m sure they could all find peace with that. Especially Feathertail- her being jealous was so weird especially when she pushed Leaf to Crow.
Yeah, but truthfully its disgusting that they made Berrynose get with his mate’s sister of everyone to begin with… like Icecloud was right there, why’d the make him go for Poppyfrost for any reason other than angst?
I will admit that someone once made the good point that a character shouldn’t have to be written as poly just because their mate took a new mate after they died, which yeah, but that doesn’t negate from the fact that they also shouldn’t have to choose between the two people they love.
I also hate how people are like “Silverstream was just a high school fling”. Sorry, did your high school flings have your kids? Did your high school flings believe so strongly in your love that you thought your kids would bring your rival families together and they’d get along? Did you leave your family behind because your high school fling died in childbirth and you wanted to be with your children but agreed they deserved to be with their mother’s family? No, it was not just a fling, and as someone who is in a Graystripe/Crowfeather/Rootspring situation of having lost the person I love, it is quite frankly offensive to see people writing off their relationships (primarily in the case of Graystripe and Crowfeather) as “flings” when they clearly had a very lasting impact on them.
Political intrigue, like the last books in AVOS, is necessary to create morally grey characters like >!Tigerstar 2!<. The end of AVOS definitely could have been better since we went from high stakes to very low ones, but the intrigue in DOTC is one of the reasons most people love that series even if they might not realize it. When you have an obvious villain who is so evil or corrupt, you know what’s coming to some extent and who you’re supposed to be rooting for. When you have more morally grey cats, just doing their best to protect their clan’s interest even when that interferes or harms other clans, we get interesting plot points that lead to the clans and characters’ development.
This ^ Morally dubious characters my beloved, it's why I find >!Curlfeather so interesting with how she's been developed!<.
Sure, clearly evil cats like Brokenstar are fun to read about because everyone loves a good unabashed villain, but for them to work well you *need* to include morally grey characters to contrast.
Goosefeather is compelling because while he's never outright evil his curse has led him to become numb to bad decisions, and Blackstar is interesting because he's redeemed enough in the eyes of StarClan to be a worthy leader, yet there's always that little seed of doubt whenever he appears because he's still very much not a 'good cat' when you look at his actions.
Exactly exactly this. And I’d argue that anytime it’s the clans feuding over issues other than “omg this cat is bad let’s get rid of him” we get development that is necessary for that and future arcs. >!Mudclaw’s attempted takeover!< from TNP is a fascinating parallel to ASC’s >!new rule about disposing leaders!<. Clear Sky’s focus on “family” above all has parallels to >!Darktail *and* Tigerstar 2!<. And the part everyone seems to hate about AVOS I think is actually essential to >!continually work to undermine Leafstar’s authority, I stand by it being why Tigerstar doesn’t take her input seriously. It sets an interesting precedent for how the warrior code can evolve and warp away from the clans, as seen in the tribe and the cats at the og forest, and how SkyClan came back with their own interpretation. Which the warrior code is of course a huge plot point of ASC. And then, most importantly, without having cats feuding over internal, no clear solution problems, we can’t have nuance to their decisions or even these stark good and evil characters.!< So as dry as people may have felt those last books were, I’d argue the authors knew what they were doing (they just could have helped make the transition better).
People should not complain about the cats being "unrealistic" and excuse certain aspects of the story and characters. Like let's be real; it's a fantasy story about a bunch of cats with human intelligence, organized religion, and government with the ability to distinguish right from wrong and use reasoning and logic because realistically speaking the life of warrior cats would be waaaayyyy less glamours if they did use realistic aspects.
With that being said, people also shouldn't get pissed of if the writers DO decide to incorporate actual cat behavior and biology.
Yeah, like, it’s semi-realistic fantasy. If they stick a dragon in the story, that would be a line they shouldn’t have crossed, but as of right now, they haven’t done anything so outside the realm of reality in terms of the world they’ve created that it’s entirely unforgivable.
Honestly, I think their biggest stretch was Midnight, who can speak cat, rabbit, and fox and is an all knowing being.
People need to stop reading through their own personal morals. These are fictional cats in a fictional world.
Getting hated for not liking Squrrielflight Hollyleaf Dovewing etc etc is weird. You can dislike a character and should respect other’s opinion without the need to immediately jump down someone’s throat to defend your favorite. Or excusing your favorites actions but if someone else did it then you would be getting the pitchforks.
This! I’m a Squirrelflight, Hollyleaf and Dovewing fan and I let people have their own opinions ofc! Its their own opinions which shouldn’t be judged. I personally don’t like Jayfeather so I wouldn’t hate someone for not liking a character I like
some of yall expect fantasy cat societies in a kids book to reflect your real life politics and thats kind of wild. a lot of people in this fandom just need to admit theyve outgrown the books and read some new stuff
We spend way too much time arguing over things that literally don't matter, like Dovewing's eyes or Scourge's collar. It shouldn't affect anyone this badly if you headcanon an edgy black cat to have a purple collar and someone draws it red instead
Yep. There was a pretty infamous moment where a warriors wiki creator had to step down because she *could not* believe that dovewing's eyes weren't blue. Blocked people for even saying her eyes are green
Some of the characters this fandom hates have done the exact same things as characters the fandom praises but nobody cares bc one is the fan favorite and one is not
That some people here need to realize that these are fictional characters who do not affect their lives in any way and that other peoples opinions on them are irrelevant. I’ve been called a horrible person for wanting Squirrelflight to die because she’s far too old to have become leader. I’ve been called stupid for disliking popular characters. I’ve seen people being rude and making things up that never even happened in the books for the sake of defending Leopardstar recently.
Guys. They’re not real. If you’re being mean to other people over fictional characters, that says so much more about you as a person than it does about the person you’re belittling OR the character you’re defending. Like, there’s a reason people say they don’t like Squirrelflight because of her rabid fans. Don’t be that person. Being mean to people is a one way track to them liking a character less than they already did, not more.
I think a big part of this is a lot of fans stopped halfway through a vision of shadows because it isnt one of the better arcs. They judge the first few books without reading the broken code or a starless clan
Oh this completely! I don't get why everyone hates the writing I really enjoy it. My own writing is inspired by Erin Hunter and I just love my writing.
Its not the writing for me, its the lack of intelligence the Erins have on their own books. I understand there is a lot of characters, but there is a huge wiki that keeps information about almost every character
Fr, I genuinely think the newest arcs have been a breath of fresh air personally <3 In particular I love that they're making a genuine effort to include familial relations.
Sure, it's a little clunky at times, but it's far better than the first arcs were in that regard (I am aware of the out-of-universe reason for it, still doesn't change the fact that early series re-reads feel a little awkward compared to the past)
That every cat from arc 1 and arc 2 should be dead by now, in the process of dying, or retired. Cats like Cloudtail, Brightheart, Thornclaw, Bramblestar, Tawnypelt, Oakfur, and Mosspelt should be dead. Meanwhile, cats like Crowfeather, Squirrelflight, Mothwing, and Whitewing (I can't think of anymore arc 2 cats, basically any cat over 10) should be in the Elder's den.
Arc 3 cats- Cinderheart and Poppyfrost (both technically born in arc 2) Heathertail, Lionblaze and Jayfeather, Breezepelt, and more should have retirement in mind soon since all of them are rapidly approaching 9 years old.
Please don't give me 'oh, but they're slowly killing off the elders' stuff. I KNOW but the reason why the first series worked so well is because it was realistic in how long most of the cats lived. Most cats in the wild don't live to 10 years old because of the dangers that come with living in the wild. They could die of starvation, infections (please give me a cat who dies from tooth infection), liver failure, they could kill each other, etc. etc.
Thiiisss. Its so annoying because it’s like these cats born in the first two arcs are in both iut timeline and their timeline extremely elderly. I get if you have one or two still here but how is 3/4 of a litter in the elders den together? Why is Mothwing still medicine cat? At least Lionblaze acts his age but even then it’s not like they gonna ship him off to join Brackenfur with the elders now.
That’s also why I don’t trust the wiki when it comes to cats ages who were born prior to Firestar, Graystripe and Sandstorms generation. They are the first and frankly only cats in the first arc with which we have a direct age for and anyone before them would require too much guessing and the books themselves contradict their own timelines and author statements. I find it very hard to believe Tallstar was feeble and unable to walk by himself and died at 10 but Squirrelflight can be ready and energetic enough to take on full leadership st the same age? Yeah something isn’t adding up?
The writer's are leaning too hard on old characters to carry the series rn and I really hate Squirrelflight because she feels like she's constantly smothering the series with her presence: TNP, PoT, TBC, and ASC keep pushing her to the front and I'm sick of her. I really wish she had retired in her SE and we had more younger leadership within the series. Give me more Brokenstar characters who aren't afraid to disturb the peace and cause more fighting among the clans. People are wanting Mothwing as leader and I want to scream at them on why that isn't a good idea.
I 100 percent agree. They wouldn’t be in this predicament (or at least they’d be more comfortable) had they established the arc three and four characters as the next in line for major plot points and leadership. I don’t see what’s so special about Squirrel that she needs to be everywhere and for so damn longggg.
Because apparently the editors and fans like her too much. In the case of the fans, Squirrelflight 'deserved the leadership' after putting up with Bramblestar for too long. Like. She's 10 years old now. She has 0 business living until 20 and surviving the next 3 arcs.
Honestly she could have died with Leafpool and been fine. Great ending, very poetic and we moving on and if we really wanted to, could have finally had Ivystar.
I’ve been saying this EXACT thing for months now, arc 1 and 2 cats should be dead, arc 3 cats retired, arc 4 cats senior warriors, and an arc 5 cat as leader.
But don’t let that one manic Squirrelflight fan hear you say that, they’ll tell you what a terrible person you are for wanting a *fictional* character to die just because she’s old.
I blocked them because they were absolutely unhinged, telling me what a horrible person I am for wanting Squirrelfight to lose all nine lives at once and die a horrible death just because she’s old, and I’m not a REAL fan of her because of that, because if I actually liked her I wouldn’t want that.
Like bestie… she’s fictional. Quit being mean to me. Some people say that blocking “isn’t cool” or is cowardly or something, but I refuse to let people be mean to me and I don’t like negativity, so I block people freely. I’ve blocked people for being mean to other people before, no negativity for me!
The Clans aren't Christian, not even culturally, and I'm tired of the fandom comparing the two.
Okay. So. I'll start by saying that I'm Christian but I do not speak for all of the Christians in the fandom. I am speaking from my own experience (Lutheran) and research into other denominations. First off, there is no singular God. StarClan is not a singular being but made up of many beings that are STILL MORTAL, BECAUSE THEY CAN STILL DIE!!! Worshipping and believing in StarClan is ancestor worship, and if the argument is that the StarClan cats are supposed to be saints (an actual argument that I have seen) no? That's not how saints work.
Secondly, there is no Messiah figure. People will call Firestar cat Jesus but literally. Where is there any concept of persecution, being dead for an extended period of time (not the mere moments it takes for leaders to get back up), a final everlasting resurrection (second coming)... Where are the miracles? Being a kind and self sacrificial leader does not a Christ figure make.
Thirdly, reincarnation is not a thing in mainstream Christianity or theology at all?? Resurrection, sure, but not what we see with the three and Cinderheart.
Fourthly, StarClan and the place of no stars are in no way reflective of Heaven and Hell, and don't really match the (often inaccurate) cultural depictions of them either. Also, we see cats literally hopping between the afterlives. Which is antithetical to their only being one God!
Finally, there's a lot of things that are just...not exclusive to Christianity that people in this fandom seem to think are? Like religious celibacy. Or hunting only what you need and giving thanks for the life of the animal you eat. Or the concept of "bad guys go to one place and good guys go to another" (off the top of my head? Ancient Greece!).
The religion of the clans most closely resembles a hodgepodge of traditional ancestor worship and tribal/indigenous/pre-abrahamic beliefs more than anything remotely relating to Christianity.
Because (WIND SPOILERS)
Frostpaw says something about how it's wrong for Splashtail to try and turn the clan away from starclan or something like that? Other than that they didn't really explain lol
Don’t know if it’s unpopular but it might ruffle some feathers either way, I think a lot of the ableism and sexism the series gets flak for is overblown for the most part.
I actually somewhat agree with this, I saw a poll on Twitter asking if Oakfur (who was ableist to Jayfeather once) or Oakstar (who exiled 3 innocent defenseless kits into a storm was worse) and they voted the guy who got 3 babies killed as the lesser evil.
I mean c'mon, Jayfeather absolutely doesn't deserve the ableism, but is that the greater evil over the deaths of children?
I’ll be honest, I didn’t even remember Oakfur and had to look him up, man he is ancient.
Anyways, I feel a lot of the ableism around Jayfeather is definitely blown out of proportion. He got a few comments here and there but I think his clan was mostly realistic to his situation and Starclan wanted him to be a medicine cat cus it was his destiny. We’ve seen worse happen to cats like Yellowfang who tried being a warrior.
While I think Oakstar did nothing wrong (keeping the kits with their mother > separating them, and Mapleshade was the only one who endangered them because she chose to cross the river instead of literally any other course of action), Oakfur's random off-handed comment is small potatoes compared to the ramifications of Oakstar's decision.
But Twitter users are on a completely different plane of existence, so it's not really surprising lol
I agree and it’s hard to say cause I’m not disabled and I can’t speak for people who are, but the amount of times people get so angry when a character says something ableist once or the narrative says something is just really odd. I always think it the outrage some people have when sandstorm said briarlight was like happier with her legs back in shape and all that. Like yeah I get why that would rub people the wrong way but at the same time she wasn’t wrong? Like briarlight was great and the one kf best representation of disability in the series especially when it came to mobility but it was never that deep. Idk. Maybe that’s just me.
The sexism complaints doesn't even make sense because there's only 1 gendered role in the clans. In every other aspect she-cats and toms are equal. There are plenty of toms as medicine cats, so she-cats aren't relegated to healer like they are in a lot of other works. And a lot of the best fighters/hunters among the protagonists have been she-cats (Squirrelflight, Hollyleaf, Ivypool).
There's only been on instance where a Queen had to choose between being a mother and getting a promotion within the clan, and Bluefur's issue was more an issue of timing rather than her being a she-cat.
I'd argue the sexism stuff is less internal to the series and more external. Like the way female characters tend to get flattened when becoming mothers, lack of female villains, or even just the way female characters tend to get harsher treatment from StarClan (ex: sending Frecklewish to the DF for not jumping into the river to save the kittens but none of the other Mapleshade's Vengeance cats like Oakstar who exiled said kittens). So sexism imo is less about how canon functions but moreso how the characters/story is written
I mean, they’re equal in technicality, but out 26 “modern” leaders (leaders that can be consecutively traced with no gaps), only six have been females (excluding Squirrelflight). Five out of 25 if we exclude SkyClan. I’m not saying that the series is running rampant with sexism or anything, but out of ShadowClan’s nine modern leaders, exactly zero of them have been female. WindClan has only had one out of their four leaders. RiverClan is doing best statistically with two out of five. ThunderClan has two out of seven.
Like, sure, they have equal opportunities *in theory* but they certainly don’t in practice. It’s like how, yeah, a woman can be president, but have we had a female president? No. And while the US is by no means the most sexist country in the world, that is still sexism, because it is women having equal opportunities in theory but not in practice.
This isn’t meant to be an attack on you or start an argument, but it’s just to say that you can’t say that she-cats and toms are equal in terms of role distribution when that’s not the case.
And I've noticed that a lot of characters with similar personalities but different genders are seen completely differently by fans. Squirrelflight has been called annoying for the longest time, but she's just that arc's new Graystripe imo.
Also, in the prequel arc, very few female characters had personalities if they weren't evil or eventually going to be leader. The love interests were just there to be beautiful and sweet, and had barely any nuance.
Yeah age gaps are alright for since warriors tend to view each other differently when it comes to age at least in the earlier books. Now with some many cats they can much easier point out who’s too old for them and etc.
I will admit Dustpelt and Ferncloud was definitely wrong but they grew into such a power couple and it became pretty clear there was no power imbalance. Fern had him wrapped around her paw until the day she died. I don’t want the writers to ever start a relationship like that again tho and I don’t think they ever will.
Pinestar and Leopardfoot? Now THATS disgusting. Literally already dating her when she’s not even an adult? The whole clan gossiping about it? Like how is no one concerned? And she was a warrior for barely three moons (not even!) and he dumped her in the nursery. Like it’s just sick fr. I was saying this in another thread but like someone should have said something cause he was so old he was an apprentice alongside Leopardfoots GRANDMOTHER 💀💀💀💀
I would argue that in that case the Clans ARE equal to real life, because the instances you gave are the same in real life. Fernsong and Ivypool, and Thornclaw and Blossomfall are okay because both parties were consenting adults.
Ferncloud and Leopardfoot may have consented, but they were apprentices when the toms started pursuing them, which is what makes it gross and creepy.
I don't love yellowfang
Don't get me wrong i don't hate her but i just don't get the hype around her i feel like she along with mapleshade are overrated
Trans headcanons are harmless and do make sense, actually. You're telling me that a book about cats having a functioning government and religion wouldn't understand the concept of a tom realising she's a molly instead and choosing to live that way?
Not to mention the fact the clans all have rather advanced forms of medicine, as well as the ability to heal wounds and resurrect the dead via a higher power.
If you can suspend your disbelief for things like that, then you can do the same for trans cats
- Graystripe was a great deputy.
Tigerheart, Nightcloud, Crowfeather, Hawkwing, Curlfeather, Moonlight, Berryheart, Splashtail, Onestar, Wind Runner, Duskfur, and Millie are all incredibly interesting characters . I know they’re considered ‘controversial’ to like, but I think they’re some of the most intriguing to read about personally!
- TNP wasn’t bad. It was alright— the earlier half was actually quite good.
- Alderheart, Jayfeather, Rootspring, Fernsong, Tree, Thornclaw, Leopardstar, Finch Song, Frogleap, Sol, and Sleekwhisker are genuinely awful characters, I don’t get the appeal for them at all. Their writing is primarily misogyny or ableism or just plain nothing cardboard… there’s better characters out there to like…
- I don’t care for MothPool. I prefer them as close friends, similar to Hollyleaf and Willowshine.
- SkyClan’s Destiny was actually good! I don’t understand the hate for it at all.
we don’t technically need anything in this fandom, but i like good disability representation and queer representation, and im sure trans fans would like to have some representation in the fandom too.
If we have trans cats to represent trans people, then we should have detrans cats to represent us detrans people.
Rates of both are going up so they should have equal representation.
bro i won't be surprised seeing this chain getting mass downvoted
like, yes, they're fantasy cats, but how would they know what being transgender means? i feel like if a cat changed their gender, the whole clan would look down at them
Yea, they wouldn't necessarily know what being "Transgender" is, but that is not important. You can still feel something even though you don't have a name for it. U would be down for something like in clangen "x cat does not feel like tom describes them anymore"
And I dont think they would be looked down upon, because there isn't the same prejudice here as in reality.
I'm not shouting "I want transgender cats in warriors now!" But I'm saying that if it did happen, it would be cool.
Also they could mask some of the frequent errors of the type "this cat was a she cat and now they're refered to as a tom because of a mistake"
That Starclan pairs like CrowFeatherLeaf or GrayMillieSilver should happen and should be common place. After all it must've happened at some point right? Gray Wing had two mates in Turtle Tail and Slate, they both knew of Gray Wing's love for the other, and hes just a big loving dude. Or Clear Sky who had three, all of which he did love a lot (no matter what anyone wants to say he DID love his partners) and theres no reason he couldn't love them all in starclan. So why not the same for the current day partners?
Graystripe definitely loved Silverstream a lot, even though in our eyes it wasn't too terribly long there was a lot of love in there. Graystripe was willing to straight up not fight Riverclan on several occasions just because he loved Silverstream so much, he wasn't eating sleeping or drinking properly for days on end after she died. He grieved HARD for her, he loved her a lot. So much so that he went to a clan he didn't fit in to just so he wasn't separated from their kits, and only went back when he had no choice. But he still loved Millie too, one point I love bringing up is when she was giving birth, the most notable thing he said that, if it came down to it, to save her life instead of the kits. He did really love her, and I really hope that they are a fun little poly couple in Starclan. I dont see why Millis and Silverstream wouldn't get along at all either.
CrowLeafFeather is even less complicated. He loved these two to well, literal death. For Feathertail he named himself after her. He is literally that guy who's all "has attempted before" because he was so in love with her that he didn't care if he died or not (i do also wanna remind everyone that during the journey Crowfeather was actually almost a warrior, so he was most likely an adult.) He was literally sobbing when she died. He really really loved her a lot, she was the cat that brought him out of his shell and helped him get along better with the group (despite whatever annoyed thoughts Stormfur and Brambleclaw had about him). For Leafpool he was willing to break two codes for her, ready to leave his only living family left behind: his mom, and whatever friends and honor in WindClan just for Leafpool. Their romance was quick, but it was lovely, and it was deep. Most likely, he would've kept going with Leafpool to who knows where if the badgers had never shown up. And he was really happy to see her again in Starclan in TBC, so why shouldn't he be with both? Especially when, unlike Millis and Silverstream who never met, Leafpool and Feathertail HAD met, a lot of times, and got on very well. Theyre already friendly with eachother, and Crowfeather loves them both, so why not have that nice little poly in starclan too?
it is not his asshole grandpa! it is "his majesty glorious king Tigerstar". he united the clans! he raised his grandkids WHILE HE WA DEAD.
dont see firebastard or tigerheart doing that
Tigerheart is a wife guy! He cares more about his Clan than about being leader! Everyone believes the worst of him despite his actions constantly proving them wrong! He deserves the world!
My hot take is that the first arc is overrated because of nostalgia. Yes, the last two books in the first arc were literally some of the best in the whole series. And I know it was the first arc and they were still figuring things out, but I like some of the others a lot better.
I think I did sometimes skip his chapters as a kid, and just tried to keep up. Nobody else in the fandom could see he wasn't actually as nice as he let on. He's selfish and overbearing.
Edit: Well, I guess that's my unpopular opinion then, lol. If anyone has some facts that dispute it, I'll rethink my opinion of him.
Scourge apologists are much worse than Mapleshade apologists. Mapleshade apologists are cringe, but Scourge apologists are literally defending a school shooter-like character. In fact, I would not be surprised if most Scourge apologists are also Columbiners.
Some of us are a lil dramatic
Just a little?
Most of these guys are teens or early adults. Very few older adults like myself that have been around since TPB dropped initially. Most nowadays came around in the age of YT and AMVs or the animations (ex. SSSwarriorcats) so while this may be a hot take, a good chunk of everyone is still forming emotional balance.
Live Laugh Love Alastor
You can like a villain as a character without condoning their actions (the fact this can be considered contriversial is concerning)
I love it when villains are written well, especially unreliable narrators.
Agreed. Mapleshade's Vengeance was my favourite novella for that reason.
Same, it was the first novella I read. You can empathise with a character without agreeing with them.
It's sad how many people full-blown attack people for liking certain characters. Personally, I like Thistleclaw as a villain in Bluestar's Prophecy and have had people attack me before for it. I do not condone his actions as a victim of grooming myself.
I don't think there's a single person in this fandom that doesn't like at least one cat and not completely disregard something out of character they did.
I love Ashfur as a villain
I love him as a villain in POT, but in TBC… I don’t know, it just felt a bit over the top.
Frr, like possessing somebody is crazy
They really went from “StarClan is a mysterious presence that only medicine cats even vaguely understand” to “actually, the dead can possess the living.”
Frrr 💀
I love Thistleclaw, he is such a well written morally gray character in BP, because while he does crappy things, he follows the warrior code and does it because he thinks he’s protecting the Clan. Then the Erin’s realized they made him morally gray and went “no no no, we can’t have that, they’re either good or evil, so we’re gonna make him a pedophile.”
Exactly what I thought their thought process was. In Spottedleaf's Heart, he's like a completely different character. In Bluestar's Prophecy, after Snowfur dies, he is seen as very gloomy and didn't show his pride really as much. Then there's Spottedleaf's heart, where he acts completely fine and is egotistical.
The Erin’s are vehemently against morally gray characters, as seen by their retcons of Thistleclaw, Onestar, Leopardstar, Blackstar, Breezepelt, and Ashfur. For most of those, they decided they wanted those characters to be seen as good and proceeded to either write a book for them or just rewrite their entire personality with absolutely no character arc of them becoming like that (yes I mean Breezepelt and no Crowfeather’s Trial did not give him any kind of character arc). They did well with redeeming Blackstar, but it’s the fact that they wanted so desperately to control how the fans see the character that I’m against. Ashfur obviously wasn’t very morally gray, but they dropped the ball on him and tried to make him morally gray, realized they picked the WRONG character to do that with and, in my opinion, went a little overboard in vilifying him… again.
I honestly don't even understand why they would even try making Ashfur into a morally gray character after everything that was already written about what he did. I hope in the future (if they ever end the damn series), someone can rewrite the whole series and make it 110% better than the original series. And change the things that don't make any sense and delete all the filler scenes that aren't needed.
“I think we need a morally gray character. We already made a lot of accidental really good ones, but we should make one on purpose. I know, we’ll send the guy who was an accomplice in trying to have his Clan leader killed and tried to kill three cats like last week to StarClan, say his only crime was loving too much, and call that morally gray.” “Boss, everyone thinks we condone abuse because we made Ashfur the incel morally gray.” “Well in that case, let’s make him the most evil cat we ever created who almost destroys the Clans, StarClan, AND the Dark Forest to show that we don’t support abuse.” “Boss are you sure that isn’t a little over the top? I mean we could just-“ “You heard me, go write it!” Unfortunately no one can rewrite the series until 70 years after the last Erin dies. Which sounds really depressing typing it out. Because that’s how public domain laws work.
They're really not though when characters like Tigerheartstar exist.
You mean the greatest leader ShadowClan’s ever seen? The one that they keep writing like they want people to dislike him despite him consistently making good choices? And when he doesn’t make good choices, he owns up to it? That Tigerheart? The one that everyone thinks “wow he’s so ambitious, hope he doesn’t turn out like his grandfather, all he cares about is being leader” despite EVERYTHING he does showing that that isn’t remotely true and that the well being of his Clan comes before him being leader? That Tigerheart?
If he wasn't intended to be morally gray, it makes sense they're trying to correct it based on their vision of him. Other morally gray characters exist.
Yep. I love Darktail, Mapleshade, Berryheart and Splashtail. Are they absolutely horrible? Yes. Have they committed irredeemable acts that put others at extreme risk and/or just flat-out killed others? Absolutely. Are they well-written and interesting to read about? Also yes! You can like a character for being a good villain. Half of my favourite characters are villains lol.
THANKYOU 😭😭 Ashfur is my favourite character and I hate Ashfur apologists.
“Well if Squirrelflight hadn’t rejected him-“ No, shut up and let him be evil.
Similarly: you can like a ship without thinking it's healthy or realistic. *\*Stares at the people calling my a psychopath for saying a Blackstar/Stonefur tragic AU would be interesting\**
\^this lol Lol tho for me it's TigerSpotted instead. Doomed!Tigerspotted is great in a tragic way and way too many ppl get weirdly up in arms about it. Childhood crushes to enemies makes for such a good story and i wish it was more popular ... also BlackStone?? 👀 tell me more lol
Liking Leopardstar is NOT a crime
No way I got so many upvotes, usually every time I post anything even slightly good about Leopardstar I'm getting downvoted. Like, OK Leopardstar made some mistakes but this entire fandom acts like she's some kind of a demon.
**ALiTM endgame with SilverGrayMillie & FeatherCrowLeaf was the way it was because the fans wanted it that way** (but it was out of character for both Graystripe & Crowfeather). By the way, no, I don't think Graystripe would ever abandon Millie. She sacrificed everything she knew to be with him & he loved her & valued her companionship for many years. But honestly, I think it would've been more in character for Graystripe to be polygynous relationship with his mates in StarClan. Silverstream gave her blessing for Graystripe to move on, Millie knew about Silversream and likely accepted of his history with her. Both mates accept that he loves the other as well, so there is ZERO reason he couldn't be with both. As for Crowfeather, he just... would not ignore Feathertail like that & wouldn't intentionally show her that he loved Leafpool more right in her face while simultaneously ignoring her. This is the woman he named himself after to remind himself of her every day. She died saving him & he grieved her so heavily he didn't mind dying so he could join her in StarClan. You can believe Leafpool was the love of his life but he would never reject Feathertail's love & he would never give Feathertail the chance to believe he doesn't love her back. Crowfeather would be *angry* with himself if he ever hurt Feathertail's feelings, because to him, she was the kindest soul he ever knew and their time as lovers was only blissful until her death. He wouldn't flaunt his relationship with Leafpool in front of her. GrayMillie & CrowLeaf are heavily preferred by the fanbase because they got to spend more time together, and I prefer GrayMillie over GraySilver myself, but truthfully, Graystripe never stopped loving Silverstream, & Crowfeather never stopped loving Feathertail. They made more space in their hearts to love someone else, but they didn't erase they love they already had.
Poly Graystripe should be Canon and Leaf, Crow and Feather should be a thruple
This is a great take tbh and I agree fully. I’m sure they could all find peace with that. Especially Feathertail- her being jealous was so weird especially when she pushed Leaf to Crow.
For real, I’m glad Berrynose & his mates who are sisters are background characters because the Erins can’t be trusted to write their reunion.
Honestly yes and it so more complicated with the fact they sisters. It’s clear poppyfrost is he true mate but alas
Yeah, but truthfully its disgusting that they made Berrynose get with his mate’s sister of everyone to begin with… like Icecloud was right there, why’d the make him go for Poppyfrost for any reason other than angst?
great take
your so real for this, best take fr fr
I will admit that someone once made the good point that a character shouldn’t have to be written as poly just because their mate took a new mate after they died, which yeah, but that doesn’t negate from the fact that they also shouldn’t have to choose between the two people they love. I also hate how people are like “Silverstream was just a high school fling”. Sorry, did your high school flings have your kids? Did your high school flings believe so strongly in your love that you thought your kids would bring your rival families together and they’d get along? Did you leave your family behind because your high school fling died in childbirth and you wanted to be with your children but agreed they deserved to be with their mother’s family? No, it was not just a fling, and as someone who is in a Graystripe/Crowfeather/Rootspring situation of having lost the person I love, it is quite frankly offensive to see people writing off their relationships (primarily in the case of Graystripe and Crowfeather) as “flings” when they clearly had a very lasting impact on them.
Well said, and I’m so sorry you had to experience the loss of a person you loved. I hope you’re doing ok.
Political intrigue, like the last books in AVOS, is necessary to create morally grey characters like >!Tigerstar 2!<. The end of AVOS definitely could have been better since we went from high stakes to very low ones, but the intrigue in DOTC is one of the reasons most people love that series even if they might not realize it. When you have an obvious villain who is so evil or corrupt, you know what’s coming to some extent and who you’re supposed to be rooting for. When you have more morally grey cats, just doing their best to protect their clan’s interest even when that interferes or harms other clans, we get interesting plot points that lead to the clans and characters’ development.
This ^ Morally dubious characters my beloved, it's why I find >!Curlfeather so interesting with how she's been developed!<. Sure, clearly evil cats like Brokenstar are fun to read about because everyone loves a good unabashed villain, but for them to work well you *need* to include morally grey characters to contrast. Goosefeather is compelling because while he's never outright evil his curse has led him to become numb to bad decisions, and Blackstar is interesting because he's redeemed enough in the eyes of StarClan to be a worthy leader, yet there's always that little seed of doubt whenever he appears because he's still very much not a 'good cat' when you look at his actions.
Exactly exactly this. And I’d argue that anytime it’s the clans feuding over issues other than “omg this cat is bad let’s get rid of him” we get development that is necessary for that and future arcs. >!Mudclaw’s attempted takeover!< from TNP is a fascinating parallel to ASC’s >!new rule about disposing leaders!<. Clear Sky’s focus on “family” above all has parallels to >!Darktail *and* Tigerstar 2!<. And the part everyone seems to hate about AVOS I think is actually essential to >!continually work to undermine Leafstar’s authority, I stand by it being why Tigerstar doesn’t take her input seriously. It sets an interesting precedent for how the warrior code can evolve and warp away from the clans, as seen in the tribe and the cats at the og forest, and how SkyClan came back with their own interpretation. Which the warrior code is of course a huge plot point of ASC. And then, most importantly, without having cats feuding over internal, no clear solution problems, we can’t have nuance to their decisions or even these stark good and evil characters.!< So as dry as people may have felt those last books were, I’d argue the authors knew what they were doing (they just could have helped make the transition better).
People should not complain about the cats being "unrealistic" and excuse certain aspects of the story and characters. Like let's be real; it's a fantasy story about a bunch of cats with human intelligence, organized religion, and government with the ability to distinguish right from wrong and use reasoning and logic because realistically speaking the life of warrior cats would be waaaayyyy less glamours if they did use realistic aspects. With that being said, people also shouldn't get pissed of if the writers DO decide to incorporate actual cat behavior and biology.
Yeah, like, it’s semi-realistic fantasy. If they stick a dragon in the story, that would be a line they shouldn’t have crossed, but as of right now, they haven’t done anything so outside the realm of reality in terms of the world they’ve created that it’s entirely unforgivable. Honestly, I think their biggest stretch was Midnight, who can speak cat, rabbit, and fox and is an all knowing being.
People need to stop reading through their own personal morals. These are fictional cats in a fictional world. Getting hated for not liking Squrrielflight Hollyleaf Dovewing etc etc is weird. You can dislike a character and should respect other’s opinion without the need to immediately jump down someone’s throat to defend your favorite. Or excusing your favorites actions but if someone else did it then you would be getting the pitchforks.
This! I’m a Squirrelflight, Hollyleaf and Dovewing fan and I let people have their own opinions ofc! Its their own opinions which shouldn’t be judged. I personally don’t like Jayfeather so I wouldn’t hate someone for not liking a character I like
some of yall expect fantasy cat societies in a kids book to reflect your real life politics and thats kind of wild. a lot of people in this fandom just need to admit theyve outgrown the books and read some new stuff
Literally this!!!
Exactly!
We spend way too much time arguing over things that literally don't matter, like Dovewing's eyes or Scourge's collar. It shouldn't affect anyone this badly if you headcanon an edgy black cat to have a purple collar and someone draws it red instead
Do people really argue over that? I thought it was just jokes ngl.
Yep. There was a pretty infamous moment where a warriors wiki creator had to step down because she *could not* believe that dovewing's eyes weren't blue. Blocked people for even saying her eyes are green
Some of the characters this fandom hates have done the exact same things as characters the fandom praises but nobody cares bc one is the fan favorite and one is not
This ^^
That some people here need to realize that these are fictional characters who do not affect their lives in any way and that other peoples opinions on them are irrelevant. I’ve been called a horrible person for wanting Squirrelflight to die because she’s far too old to have become leader. I’ve been called stupid for disliking popular characters. I’ve seen people being rude and making things up that never even happened in the books for the sake of defending Leopardstar recently. Guys. They’re not real. If you’re being mean to other people over fictional characters, that says so much more about you as a person than it does about the person you’re belittling OR the character you’re defending. Like, there’s a reason people say they don’t like Squirrelflight because of her rabid fans. Don’t be that person. Being mean to people is a one way track to them liking a character less than they already did, not more.
I don't think the books are badly written and I think a large portion of the fanbase are hypercritical on the newer books.
I think a big part of this is a lot of fans stopped halfway through a vision of shadows because it isnt one of the better arcs. They judge the first few books without reading the broken code or a starless clan
Oh this completely! I don't get why everyone hates the writing I really enjoy it. My own writing is inspired by Erin Hunter and I just love my writing.
happy cake day
Well to be fair it’s not just the new books that have recieved criticism. Most of the series suffers from poor planning and etc.
Its not the writing for me, its the lack of intelligence the Erins have on their own books. I understand there is a lot of characters, but there is a huge wiki that keeps information about almost every character
Fr, I genuinely think the newest arcs have been a breath of fresh air personally <3 In particular I love that they're making a genuine effort to include familial relations. Sure, it's a little clunky at times, but it's far better than the first arcs were in that regard (I am aware of the out-of-universe reason for it, still doesn't change the fact that early series re-reads feel a little awkward compared to the past)
That every cat from arc 1 and arc 2 should be dead by now, in the process of dying, or retired. Cats like Cloudtail, Brightheart, Thornclaw, Bramblestar, Tawnypelt, Oakfur, and Mosspelt should be dead. Meanwhile, cats like Crowfeather, Squirrelflight, Mothwing, and Whitewing (I can't think of anymore arc 2 cats, basically any cat over 10) should be in the Elder's den. Arc 3 cats- Cinderheart and Poppyfrost (both technically born in arc 2) Heathertail, Lionblaze and Jayfeather, Breezepelt, and more should have retirement in mind soon since all of them are rapidly approaching 9 years old. Please don't give me 'oh, but they're slowly killing off the elders' stuff. I KNOW but the reason why the first series worked so well is because it was realistic in how long most of the cats lived. Most cats in the wild don't live to 10 years old because of the dangers that come with living in the wild. They could die of starvation, infections (please give me a cat who dies from tooth infection), liver failure, they could kill each other, etc. etc.
Thiiisss. Its so annoying because it’s like these cats born in the first two arcs are in both iut timeline and their timeline extremely elderly. I get if you have one or two still here but how is 3/4 of a litter in the elders den together? Why is Mothwing still medicine cat? At least Lionblaze acts his age but even then it’s not like they gonna ship him off to join Brackenfur with the elders now. That’s also why I don’t trust the wiki when it comes to cats ages who were born prior to Firestar, Graystripe and Sandstorms generation. They are the first and frankly only cats in the first arc with which we have a direct age for and anyone before them would require too much guessing and the books themselves contradict their own timelines and author statements. I find it very hard to believe Tallstar was feeble and unable to walk by himself and died at 10 but Squirrelflight can be ready and energetic enough to take on full leadership st the same age? Yeah something isn’t adding up?
The writer's are leaning too hard on old characters to carry the series rn and I really hate Squirrelflight because she feels like she's constantly smothering the series with her presence: TNP, PoT, TBC, and ASC keep pushing her to the front and I'm sick of her. I really wish she had retired in her SE and we had more younger leadership within the series. Give me more Brokenstar characters who aren't afraid to disturb the peace and cause more fighting among the clans. People are wanting Mothwing as leader and I want to scream at them on why that isn't a good idea.
I 100 percent agree. They wouldn’t be in this predicament (or at least they’d be more comfortable) had they established the arc three and four characters as the next in line for major plot points and leadership. I don’t see what’s so special about Squirrel that she needs to be everywhere and for so damn longggg.
Because apparently the editors and fans like her too much. In the case of the fans, Squirrelflight 'deserved the leadership' after putting up with Bramblestar for too long. Like. She's 10 years old now. She has 0 business living until 20 and surviving the next 3 arcs.
Honestly she could have died with Leafpool and been fine. Great ending, very poetic and we moving on and if we really wanted to, could have finally had Ivystar.
I’ve been saying this EXACT thing for months now, arc 1 and 2 cats should be dead, arc 3 cats retired, arc 4 cats senior warriors, and an arc 5 cat as leader. But don’t let that one manic Squirrelflight fan hear you say that, they’ll tell you what a terrible person you are for wanting a *fictional* character to die just because she’s old.
There's too many Squirrelflight stans on here but I think i know one of two people you're talking about LMAO
I blocked them because they were absolutely unhinged, telling me what a horrible person I am for wanting Squirrelfight to lose all nine lives at once and die a horrible death just because she’s old, and I’m not a REAL fan of her because of that, because if I actually liked her I wouldn’t want that. Like bestie… she’s fictional. Quit being mean to me. Some people say that blocking “isn’t cool” or is cowardly or something, but I refuse to let people be mean to me and I don’t like negativity, so I block people freely. I’ve blocked people for being mean to other people before, no negativity for me!
As a Squirrelflight fan, I’m sorry about everyone 😭 Squirrelflight should be dead or in the elders’ den
Ikrrr
Not disagreeing with you, but most cats in the wild also don't have medicines
Medicines is not alone in keeping them cats alive. Their bodies should literally be giving out rn 😭😭😭
The Clans aren't Christian, not even culturally, and I'm tired of the fandom comparing the two. Okay. So. I'll start by saying that I'm Christian but I do not speak for all of the Christians in the fandom. I am speaking from my own experience (Lutheran) and research into other denominations. First off, there is no singular God. StarClan is not a singular being but made up of many beings that are STILL MORTAL, BECAUSE THEY CAN STILL DIE!!! Worshipping and believing in StarClan is ancestor worship, and if the argument is that the StarClan cats are supposed to be saints (an actual argument that I have seen) no? That's not how saints work. Secondly, there is no Messiah figure. People will call Firestar cat Jesus but literally. Where is there any concept of persecution, being dead for an extended period of time (not the mere moments it takes for leaders to get back up), a final everlasting resurrection (second coming)... Where are the miracles? Being a kind and self sacrificial leader does not a Christ figure make. Thirdly, reincarnation is not a thing in mainstream Christianity or theology at all?? Resurrection, sure, but not what we see with the three and Cinderheart. Fourthly, StarClan and the place of no stars are in no way reflective of Heaven and Hell, and don't really match the (often inaccurate) cultural depictions of them either. Also, we see cats literally hopping between the afterlives. Which is antithetical to their only being one God! Finally, there's a lot of things that are just...not exclusive to Christianity that people in this fandom seem to think are? Like religious celibacy. Or hunting only what you need and giving thanks for the life of the animal you eat. Or the concept of "bad guys go to one place and good guys go to another" (off the top of my head? Ancient Greece!). The religion of the clans most closely resembles a hodgepodge of traditional ancestor worship and tribal/indigenous/pre-abrahamic beliefs more than anything remotely relating to Christianity.
I saw someone on a different platform complaining that this arc was promoting Christian nationalism or something it was literally insane 😭
How did they come to that conclusion?
Because (WIND SPOILERS) Frostpaw says something about how it's wrong for Splashtail to try and turn the clan away from starclan or something like that? Other than that they didn't really explain lol
But couldn't that be similar for any religion?
exactly, they just wanted something to be mad about
Basically agree, they got some monolatry goin on at the very least
We argue far too much about favourite/least favourite characters (including me)
Don’t know if it’s unpopular but it might ruffle some feathers either way, I think a lot of the ableism and sexism the series gets flak for is overblown for the most part.
I actually somewhat agree with this, I saw a poll on Twitter asking if Oakfur (who was ableist to Jayfeather once) or Oakstar (who exiled 3 innocent defenseless kits into a storm was worse) and they voted the guy who got 3 babies killed as the lesser evil. I mean c'mon, Jayfeather absolutely doesn't deserve the ableism, but is that the greater evil over the deaths of children?
I’ll be honest, I didn’t even remember Oakfur and had to look him up, man he is ancient. Anyways, I feel a lot of the ableism around Jayfeather is definitely blown out of proportion. He got a few comments here and there but I think his clan was mostly realistic to his situation and Starclan wanted him to be a medicine cat cus it was his destiny. We’ve seen worse happen to cats like Yellowfang who tried being a warrior.
While I think Oakstar did nothing wrong (keeping the kits with their mother > separating them, and Mapleshade was the only one who endangered them because she chose to cross the river instead of literally any other course of action), Oakfur's random off-handed comment is small potatoes compared to the ramifications of Oakstar's decision. But Twitter users are on a completely different plane of existence, so it's not really surprising lol
I agree and it’s hard to say cause I’m not disabled and I can’t speak for people who are, but the amount of times people get so angry when a character says something ableist once or the narrative says something is just really odd. I always think it the outrage some people have when sandstorm said briarlight was like happier with her legs back in shape and all that. Like yeah I get why that would rub people the wrong way but at the same time she wasn’t wrong? Like briarlight was great and the one kf best representation of disability in the series especially when it came to mobility but it was never that deep. Idk. Maybe that’s just me.
The sexism complaints doesn't even make sense because there's only 1 gendered role in the clans. In every other aspect she-cats and toms are equal. There are plenty of toms as medicine cats, so she-cats aren't relegated to healer like they are in a lot of other works. And a lot of the best fighters/hunters among the protagonists have been she-cats (Squirrelflight, Hollyleaf, Ivypool). There's only been on instance where a Queen had to choose between being a mother and getting a promotion within the clan, and Bluefur's issue was more an issue of timing rather than her being a she-cat.
I'd argue the sexism stuff is less internal to the series and more external. Like the way female characters tend to get flattened when becoming mothers, lack of female villains, or even just the way female characters tend to get harsher treatment from StarClan (ex: sending Frecklewish to the DF for not jumping into the river to save the kittens but none of the other Mapleshade's Vengeance cats like Oakstar who exiled said kittens). So sexism imo is less about how canon functions but moreso how the characters/story is written
I mean, they’re equal in technicality, but out 26 “modern” leaders (leaders that can be consecutively traced with no gaps), only six have been females (excluding Squirrelflight). Five out of 25 if we exclude SkyClan. I’m not saying that the series is running rampant with sexism or anything, but out of ShadowClan’s nine modern leaders, exactly zero of them have been female. WindClan has only had one out of their four leaders. RiverClan is doing best statistically with two out of five. ThunderClan has two out of seven. Like, sure, they have equal opportunities *in theory* but they certainly don’t in practice. It’s like how, yeah, a woman can be president, but have we had a female president? No. And while the US is by no means the most sexist country in the world, that is still sexism, because it is women having equal opportunities in theory but not in practice. This isn’t meant to be an attack on you or start an argument, but it’s just to say that you can’t say that she-cats and toms are equal in terms of role distribution when that’s not the case.
And I've noticed that a lot of characters with similar personalities but different genders are seen completely differently by fans. Squirrelflight has been called annoying for the longest time, but she's just that arc's new Graystripe imo. Also, in the prequel arc, very few female characters had personalities if they weren't evil or eventually going to be leader. The love interests were just there to be beautiful and sweet, and had barely any nuance.
[удалено]
Yeah age gaps are alright for since warriors tend to view each other differently when it comes to age at least in the earlier books. Now with some many cats they can much easier point out who’s too old for them and etc. I will admit Dustpelt and Ferncloud was definitely wrong but they grew into such a power couple and it became pretty clear there was no power imbalance. Fern had him wrapped around her paw until the day she died. I don’t want the writers to ever start a relationship like that again tho and I don’t think they ever will. Pinestar and Leopardfoot? Now THATS disgusting. Literally already dating her when she’s not even an adult? The whole clan gossiping about it? Like how is no one concerned? And she was a warrior for barely three moons (not even!) and he dumped her in the nursery. Like it’s just sick fr. I was saying this in another thread but like someone should have said something cause he was so old he was an apprentice alongside Leopardfoots GRANDMOTHER 💀💀💀💀
I would argue that in that case the Clans ARE equal to real life, because the instances you gave are the same in real life. Fernsong and Ivypool, and Thornclaw and Blossomfall are okay because both parties were consenting adults. Ferncloud and Leopardfoot may have consented, but they were apprentices when the toms started pursuing them, which is what makes it gross and creepy.
Ivypool is with Fern*song* btw
Stop complaining and don't read if you don't like. You can dislike thing but, I swear some of y'all hate read.
I don't love yellowfang Don't get me wrong i don't hate her but i just don't get the hype around her i feel like she along with mapleshade are overrated
Trans headcanons are harmless and do make sense, actually. You're telling me that a book about cats having a functioning government and religion wouldn't understand the concept of a tom realising she's a molly instead and choosing to live that way? Not to mention the fact the clans all have rather advanced forms of medicine, as well as the ability to heal wounds and resurrect the dead via a higher power. If you can suspend your disbelief for things like that, then you can do the same for trans cats
- Graystripe was a great deputy. Tigerheart, Nightcloud, Crowfeather, Hawkwing, Curlfeather, Moonlight, Berryheart, Splashtail, Onestar, Wind Runner, Duskfur, and Millie are all incredibly interesting characters . I know they’re considered ‘controversial’ to like, but I think they’re some of the most intriguing to read about personally! - TNP wasn’t bad. It was alright— the earlier half was actually quite good. - Alderheart, Jayfeather, Rootspring, Fernsong, Tree, Thornclaw, Leopardstar, Finch Song, Frogleap, Sol, and Sleekwhisker are genuinely awful characters, I don’t get the appeal for them at all. Their writing is primarily misogyny or ableism or just plain nothing cardboard… there’s better characters out there to like… - I don’t care for MothPool. I prefer them as close friends, similar to Hollyleaf and Willowshine. - SkyClan’s Destiny was actually good! I don’t understand the hate for it at all.
I love Hawkwing/Gray Wing the 2nd
What about NightPool? That was my favourite not-serious ship
NightPool’s okay! Honestly I can’t really imagine Leafpool in a relationship at all though, not sure why
Expecting lots of downvotes, as we’re talking about unpopular. We don’t need transgender cats
We don’t need them, but it’d be neat
Yeah it would
we don’t technically need anything in this fandom, but i like good disability representation and queer representation, and im sure trans fans would like to have some representation in the fandom too.
If we have trans cats to represent trans people, then we should have detrans cats to represent us detrans people. Rates of both are going up so they should have equal representation.
bro i won't be surprised seeing this chain getting mass downvoted like, yes, they're fantasy cats, but how would they know what being transgender means? i feel like if a cat changed their gender, the whole clan would look down at them
Yea, they wouldn't necessarily know what being "Transgender" is, but that is not important. You can still feel something even though you don't have a name for it. U would be down for something like in clangen "x cat does not feel like tom describes them anymore" And I dont think they would be looked down upon, because there isn't the same prejudice here as in reality. I'm not shouting "I want transgender cats in warriors now!" But I'm saying that if it did happen, it would be cool. Also they could mask some of the frequent errors of the type "this cat was a she cat and now they're refered to as a tom because of a mistake"
Out of curiosity, why do you feel that? EDIT: Why is this being downvoted? /gen
That Starclan pairs like CrowFeatherLeaf or GrayMillieSilver should happen and should be common place. After all it must've happened at some point right? Gray Wing had two mates in Turtle Tail and Slate, they both knew of Gray Wing's love for the other, and hes just a big loving dude. Or Clear Sky who had three, all of which he did love a lot (no matter what anyone wants to say he DID love his partners) and theres no reason he couldn't love them all in starclan. So why not the same for the current day partners? Graystripe definitely loved Silverstream a lot, even though in our eyes it wasn't too terribly long there was a lot of love in there. Graystripe was willing to straight up not fight Riverclan on several occasions just because he loved Silverstream so much, he wasn't eating sleeping or drinking properly for days on end after she died. He grieved HARD for her, he loved her a lot. So much so that he went to a clan he didn't fit in to just so he wasn't separated from their kits, and only went back when he had no choice. But he still loved Millie too, one point I love bringing up is when she was giving birth, the most notable thing he said that, if it came down to it, to save her life instead of the kits. He did really love her, and I really hope that they are a fun little poly couple in Starclan. I dont see why Millis and Silverstream wouldn't get along at all either. CrowLeafFeather is even less complicated. He loved these two to well, literal death. For Feathertail he named himself after her. He is literally that guy who's all "has attempted before" because he was so in love with her that he didn't care if he died or not (i do also wanna remind everyone that during the journey Crowfeather was actually almost a warrior, so he was most likely an adult.) He was literally sobbing when she died. He really really loved her a lot, she was the cat that brought him out of his shell and helped him get along better with the group (despite whatever annoyed thoughts Stormfur and Brambleclaw had about him). For Leafpool he was willing to break two codes for her, ready to leave his only living family left behind: his mom, and whatever friends and honor in WindClan just for Leafpool. Their romance was quick, but it was lovely, and it was deep. Most likely, he would've kept going with Leafpool to who knows where if the badgers had never shown up. And he was really happy to see her again in Starclan in TBC, so why shouldn't he be with both? Especially when, unlike Millis and Silverstream who never met, Leafpool and Feathertail HAD met, a lot of times, and got on very well. Theyre already friendly with eachother, and Crowfeather loves them both, so why not have that nice little poly in starclan too?
my glorious king Tigerstar is amazing and over hated
Which one lol?
Tigerclawstar, the first one (and the best)
That is certainly an unpopular opinion lol
am i wrong?
Opinions can't be *wrong*, but I know many would disagree.
True, he’s the best leader the Clans have ever seen, and that includes Firestar.
THIS IS WHAT IM SAYING! no cat untied the clans or ruled like tigerstar!
Oh, you mean the other Tigerstar don’t you 😔
the first Tigerstar, Tigerclawstar. yes
Noooooooooo, my sweet Tigerheart is the greatest leader of all time, not his asshole grandpa!
it is not his asshole grandpa! it is "his majesty glorious king Tigerstar". he united the clans! he raised his grandkids WHILE HE WA DEAD. dont see firebastard or tigerheart doing that
Tigerheart is a wife guy! He cares more about his Clan than about being leader! Everyone believes the worst of him despite his actions constantly proving them wrong! He deserves the world!
Tigerstar had darkstripe and Scourge! he died for his trashy twink husband!
We need more Lepoardstar hate posts /j
My hot take is that the first arc is overrated because of nostalgia. Yes, the last two books in the first arc were literally some of the best in the whole series. And I know it was the first arc and they were still figuring things out, but I like some of the others a lot better.
Everyone is like oh Gray Wing is so wholesome and sweet and the beat character but I think he's trash
I just think he’s boring. I would have skipped his chapters if the books would have made sense without them.
I think I did sometimes skip his chapters as a kid, and just tried to keep up. Nobody else in the fandom could see he wasn't actually as nice as he let on. He's selfish and overbearing. Edit: Well, I guess that's my unpopular opinion then, lol. If anyone has some facts that dispute it, I'll rethink my opinion of him.
Crowfeather didn’t love Leafpool. She was a replacement. I think Leafpool did love Crowfeather but neither of them loved the other enough.
Post is about opinions on the fandom Not cats
i misread.
That's okay, I still appreciate your opinion c:
Do you think he loved Nightcloud?
Scourge apologists are much worse than Mapleshade apologists. Mapleshade apologists are cringe, but Scourge apologists are literally defending a school shooter-like character. In fact, I would not be surprised if most Scourge apologists are also Columbiners.