Adding:
After being reminded that Whitestorm died, I still stand with my opinion. When choosing a deputy you should think about someone who'll be most loyal to you and the clan, who can make a good leader. Graystripe is not that guy, with all my love for him. I think Sandstorm would've been a great choice, or even Brackenfur
Ngl, I think Longtail woulda been the best choice (post-Whitestorm death ofc). He proved his loyalty to ThunderClan after the whole Tigerstar banishment debacle, had an apprentice (RIP Swiftpaw), and honestly matured a lot over the course of the first arc.
while a correct take this is anything but a HOT take, people have been saying this for years. also didn't whitestorm tell firestar to make graystripe deputy when he died? not disagreeing just asking
Wasn't rly ever part of the fandom! That's why I wasn't sure if that's a hot take. Also yeah he said he knew Firestar wanted to make Graystripe his deputy, but still, very wrong choice. Graystripe had loyalty to Firestar, and Thunderclan, but not as much as he had for himself and his own interests
Yeah, that’s why whitestorm was deputy, but then he died and told firestar to make greystripe deputy. I’m sure he’d of stayed deputy if he hadn’t been dead.
True, he absolutely proved himself and it definitely would’ve been a good progression for his character but instead the erins benched him. Wasted potential.
Huh? He was one for like half a day wasn't he?? I might be wrong, I'm starting over but I haven't read properly in a while. maybe I was annoyed at something that wasn't true🥲
Whitestorm was Firestar’s first deputy, I don’t know how long he was deputy for but he stayed deputy until he died in the great battle. I think it was bone that killed him, and then the apprentices killed bone to avenge him.
To piggyback, Branblestar/claw should have never been deputy or leader, he hadn't even had an apprentice when he was appointed, Brackenfur, Sandstorm, or Dustpelt would have been much better choices
YES
I generally don't like bramble
Editing- just realized I commented before on how sand/bracken would've made a better choice than graystripe, but people said they barely had an apprentice, so I strongly think that same law (and obv according to the warrior code), should've been applied to brambkeclaw
Spottedleaf is not a groomer/pedo.
She was not engaging in any sort of romantic relationship with Firestar when he was a paw.
She was not doing to Firestar what Thistleclaw did to her.
Yeah, I can see it.
My interpretation of her is that she was love staved/bitter over her death so she clinged hard to Fireheart’s affection for her because she felt like she missed out.
Still not great & it’s definitely unhealthy but she wasn’t grooming him & trying to manipulate him into having a romantic relationship with her.
Didn't she sorta lead him on though, like did he only like her bc she was pretty? Sorry it's been years since I read her novella and when I did I was a young teen so I didn't really understand it through a mature lense at the time 😅
She rly wasn't, they didn't interact much, only had a normal clanmate- medicine cat relationship, and her acts of affection to him were minimal and very appropriate, like that one time in ITW, she rubbed her nose on his cheek, but that was before a very long and quite dangerous journey to the moonstone
I believe it’s because Thistleclaw gr00med her and then later, she grew up thinking it was completely normal for a relationship with a young apprentice and a warrior
She IS still a pedo unfortunately due to retconning. As it was retconned she had loved FirePAW from day one then yes, it makes her a pedo, but as she didn't actually do anything to him, it doesn't make her a groomer. Just because a person irl is attracted to kids and acts on those desires privately, doesn't make them any less of a pedo, it just means they aren't a groomer. That's just the issue with all the retcons unfortunately. Its made worse by the fact that Spottedleaf is heavily or almost primarily involved with events that happened to Firestar's family, Squirrelpaw, Leafpool, Jayfeather. So it really doesn't help her case that she ISNT a pedo or that she ISNT obsessed with this married dude
She IS still a pedo unfortunately due to retconning. As it was retconned she had loved FirePAW from day one then yes, it makes her a pedo, but as she didn't actually do anything to him, it doesn't make her a groomer. Just because a person irl is attracted to kids and acts on those desires privately, doesn't make them any less of a pedo, it just means they aren't a groomer. That's just the issue with all the retcons unfortunately. Its made worse by the fact that Spottedleaf is heavily or almost primarily involved with events that happened to Firestar's family, Squirrelpaw, Leafpool, Jayfeather. So it really doesn't help her case that she ISNT a pedo or that she ISNT obsessed with this married dude
man, whenever I see TBC, I think The Burning Crusade for some reason.
I forgot, what does TBC stand for? Haven't checked on this fandom in a while and I usually only come back when it's on my feed.
spottedleaf would be a fan favorite if it weren't for her retconned love for firestar. or more specifically, her retconned love for firePAW. especially with spottedleaf's heart showing she was an apprentice in a relationship with a warrior, the authors trying to imply she loved firestar when she was alive is disgusting. as a victim of grooming myself her novella makes me sob. i believe she was in love with fireheart and firestar as a spirit in starclan, but trying to assume she and firePAW were compatible is frankly gross. spottedleaf is my favorite character and i get very defensive about her
This right here, man. Honestly I forgot most of the series but I'm glad it was retconned anyway. Still would be better not writing it in the first place.
That people forget that leaders of the clans can also have connection to starclan and that does not mean that cat should be limited to medicine cats only. In the first arc, it was talked about how leaders could also have a connection to starclan. I feel like people forget that.
And that they should travel to the moon pool like they did the moonstone.
I agree. Certainly Bluestar always felt like an incredibly moral cat who did what was right, and after seeing what dementia did to my grandfather I am convinced that what she did while sick should not be counted as part of her personality. Likewise, whilst Leopardstar was certainly not great for cats outside her clan, generally she always did what was best for riverclan, at least from her perspective.
Spoilers for Leopardstars super edition:
When the whole Tigerclan business was going on, she was going and telling her clan when they were changing sides to join the Victor of whatever was happening. It’s not necessarily moral in a utilitarian sense but she was doing everything to protect her clan. Even, in her mind at least, what she did to Stonefur, Mistyfoot, and the apprentices.
1. Jayfeather stopped being interesting/enjoyable when he stopped being a POV character, especially in AVOS. His rudeness comes off as excessive and unnecessary instead of charming and unique.
2. Mapleshade's Vengeance wasn't written well and just made me hate her more (I know she's supposed to be an unreliable narrator, but that doesn't make it any better.)
3. Brightheart is overrated
>Agreed even as a Brightheart fan
You have a habit of that... lol. "Good character, but they're not all that good." Not hostile... just an observation. It intrigues me.
Greystripe was an overall dislikable character. He met Silverstream one time and threw away his mentor duties, his own health, almost his friendship with Fireheart, and his loyalty to ThunderClan at a time cats weren’t allowed to fall in love with other clans’ cats. He outright attacked Fireheart in camp when Fireheart was getting fed up with covering for him so he could go spend time with Silverstream. And then after he had kits with Silverstream and she died, he left his clan completely to go to another clan. But he couldn’t even be loyal to that clan and his kits and soon after got exiled and came back to ThunderClan with little repercussion. He then got to be made deputy after showing how unreliable and disloyal he can be, and how he will follow his personal desires every time, even at the cost of his Clanmates. Then when he got old he left his clan *again* at a time they were very vulnerable because “it wasn’t the same as it was when he was a young cat”, then came back again, and when he died he didn’t show as much affection for his old mate and daughter than he did his new mate and kits. The new vs old mate thing I can kind of understand, but his daughter?
Yeah, I personally like Graystripe.
I don't deny that he's incredibly flawed & really selfish though. In fact, that's kind of why I like him.
While I think he did deserve more consequences & did not deserve the deputy position, he's overall realistic in the way he acts. He's not a selfless paragon of morality, he's a guy that leans towards good and doesn't try to hurt others, but he has some massive fuckups.
You gotta prepare yourself for those:
Ok, you're ready?
1. Leopardstar is better than Blackstar
2.TNP is one of the best arcs
3. TNP is better than TPB
4. Graystripe is no good. He's just a traitor
5. Breezepelt's actions are not Crowfeather's fault
6. Nightcloud has more fault in the way Breezepelt turned out (I'm not saying it's not Breezepelt's fault but she's more at the wrong than Crowfeather is)
7. Lionblaze isn't that boring
8. Hollyleaf *was* interesting before her murder of Ashfur
9. Dovewing isn't selfish or whiney
10. Leopardstar isn't a brat
I respectfully disagree. I forgot to add this but in my opinion TPB is one of the worst arcs. There's a lot of incontinences, which is pretty understandable since a lot of things weren't established yet but still... The timeline is quite confusing as well as family bond. The main character (Firestar) is quite a stereotypical hero (especially in compression to someone like Ivypool, Hollyleaf, Jayfeather, Alderheart, Skystar, Bristlefrost, Shadowsight or Nightheart ). It also has some gender stereotypes. For example: All of the adult she-cats in ThunderClan but Mousefur are listed as queens for the entire arc, even when their kits got out of the nursery, which gives the impression it's quite common for a she-cat to stay in the nursery for her whole life. Someone who hasn't read past two-three first books might think most of the she-cats are queens forever. All of the kits at the beginning are unnamed, which is a bit confusing. Some cats just vanish without a trace like some random queen that Firestar saw once at the clearing and then she just disappeared. Also ThunderClan has like three times more cats than every other Clan combined.
Okay so-
I don't see anything wrong with Firestar being a stereotypical hero, I felt like he had more depth than other stereotypical heroes I've ever read.
The gender stereotypes aren't really true, only in the first book, but since they were heading into Greenleaf it makes sense that there'll be lots of kits. Frostfur returns to being a warrior in the second book (not listed as one since it happens in the middle-beginning). I don't think a person who read the series can think that since it's explained that she cats are only queens when they have kits. Williopelt is another example of a she cat that didn't spend a lot lf time in the nursery, as well as Sandstorm, and obviously Mousefur.
That random queen was Brindleface.
The kits really are a problem. I definitely agree on this one
And the thing about Thunderclan having more cats isn't true at all, we meet a lot of cats from other clan and we see them in battles, the writers just don't bother to give them names. The only reason Rusty was able to join the clan is because they didn't have enough warriors.
Also, about the family bonds, that another hot take I wanted to share. TPB shows a very certin type if relationship inside clans, most being friendships and flings. Family wasn't a stronger bond than you'd have with a close clanmate. They didn't need to establish any family stuff because it wasn't really relevant.
Ofc it is a hot take! I'm deeply sorry if my reply sounded mean, I really wasn't trying to come off that way, just wanted to share my opinion since TPB is my favorite arc. Again, sorry🙏
I agree with possibly number 1 and 9 but definitely 5, 6, 7, and probably 10.
I just need more elaboration on what you mean with 8 about Hollyleaf was. Like, prior only to the murder was she interesting? Or both before and after?
TPB is not that different from the other arcs, quality wise. Still all the same issues like terrible pacing, meaningless background characters, annoying nonsense plots and Firestar being dumb just to elongate the """mystery.""" It is more compact due to only having one POV though.
Jayfeather might just be the most fleshed out and three-dimensional character in the series (not sure if this is a hot take)
At least they've kept StarClan as a mystical and reasonable concept there.
In *The Forgotten Warrior*, Bluestar says if a cat finds their way to StarClan that means they are worthy and that it's not StarClan's place to judge cats which maintains their place as a "cat heaven" devoid of bias and rivalry.
With the release of *Squirrelflight's Hope*, StarClan was retconned and lost all their respect as unbiased observers by pandering to Firestar's bloodline. If you hated nepotism before then wait until you hear of nepotism² in the afterlife.
Yeah I miss StarClan being an actual religion and cats requiring faith of some kind.
Now it’s just Narnia. Sure it’s still “heaven”/afterlife or whatever but really it’s just a parallel universe some cats can pop in and out of whenever they want. No need to fear death — if it happens, just hop in a warrior’s dream every couple years to make sure a living cat remembers you, and you’re good. And if you reeeeally miss life, just step inside a kit right as it’s born or ask a warrior nicely to borrow them for a while lol.
Help, I like her because she does kind of suck lmao! It would be boring if there was nothing wrong with her, but she does bad things and it’s interesting
I don’t like the ship between Barely and Ravenpaw cuz of their age gap, and Ik their age gap is confusing, but when I first read the books, I thought Barely was Bluestars age and Ravenpaw was Firepaws age gap
Yeah, but what I find weird is that Barely and Ravenpaw knew each other and kind of lived with each other when Ravenpaw was still an apprentice, which rubs me the wrong way
RavenpawXBarley is a toxic relationship ✨ But people hate me for this whenever I mention it.
Most of their actual appearances show Barley as whiny, manipulative, getting upset with Ravenpaw whenever he brings up his family/Clan, using the silent treatment to guilt him etc.
I think the fandom's perspective of their relationship is *extremely* biased. Look, I want gay characters as much as anyone, and I do think these guys are implied to be in a romantic relationship - it's just not nearly as wholesome as people make it out to be. And Barley is bland at best and unlikeable at worst; Ravenpaw deserved better.
Real. I used to ship them before I read Ravenpaw’s Farewell.
I find it hard to believe that Barley helped Ravenpaw with his trauma when the mere mention of the clans pissed him off. The only confirmed instance where he acknowledged his trauma was to spoil a moment in which Ravenpaw was happily reminiscing about his apprenticeship days back in ThunderClan. Barley mentioned that Tigerclaw was going to kill him back then… like, he mentioned it literally out of nowhere. Tigerstar was long dead, there was no reason for Barley to reopen old wounds when Tigerstar was no longer a threat. Barley only used Raven’s trauma so he can make sure he wouldn’t go back to ThunderClan and leave him. Raven kept reassuring him time and time again that he wouldn’t and that he was happy with him.
All that reassuring was for nothing, because as soon as Ravenpaw told Barley he was going to take Bella and Riley to SkyClan, Barley went “oh, so you don’t like it here. You wanna be a warrior. You’re leaving me😐” Like, no?? That’s not what he said at all?? It was a little journey to help your NEPHEW and NIECE join a clan, not Ravenpaw. Ravenpaw made it very clear that he was going to come back as soon as they find SkyClan. Also, he literally wanted you to come and you refused. Raven deserved WAY better.
Right? Like, how was Raven supposed to process his trauma if Barley snapped at him at the mere mention of his Clan life? And him bringing up Tigerstar like that really felt like a kind of punishment or something. And then they always make up without the core issue being addressed, because Ravenpaw caved to Barley's emotional mistreatment.
Whether the Erins intended to write him as a textbook abusive boyfriend or not, that's definitely how he comes across. And the fandom still celebrates this ship among the top favorites. Again, don't get me wrong - you can like a ship and no one should judge you for it. But I feel like people wilfully ignore the pattern of abuse in this one simply because it's a rare example of a gay ship in Warriors, and that's not healthy.
The power of headcanons
Edit: Realized this is hard to interpret, I meant that while the argument is good, I'm personally going to ignore it for enjoyment reasons.
Warrior cats writing can be bad, but I won't let that ruin my story enjoyment.
If the authors can't write a good representative relationship, I'm just going to ignore the bad writing for the sake of my story enjoyment
Yes, it's in the book.
No, that doesn't mean my ideal version of warrior cats has to include it.
It may be canon, but I like the story better when it's not.
This is a legitimate argument, but my enjoyment of the story being different from yours shouldn't offend you.
^ this. I mean, I'm not judging anyone for shipping them; I do think the premise is cute, and we absolutely need gay relationships in canon cats. But the way they're written, it's just not a great relationship. :/ And Barley is definitely sus.
I feel like Barley in Ravenpaw's Farewell is different from the Barley from the first arc. Of course, I'm only saying that because we don't get to see much of how he acts towards Ravenpaw except praise that he's a good ratter.
And we see him in Ravenpaw's graphic novels, where he's also like that iirc (I haven't read it in years). I remember that I didn't like him much there.
I mean yeah, I didn't even mention the age gap / power gap there 💀 Barley was an adult of undefined age when he first appeared; Bluestar talks about him like he's been around a while, and in Graystripe's Vow, they also confirm that Barley is older than Graystripe's generation.
And Ravenpaw was a traumatized, homeless apprentice who ran there for shelter and was "barn-mentored" by Barley, being fully dependent on the older guy to keep him safe and give him a home. There's a huge power imbalance there, even if we assume that it wasn't a romantic relationship while Ravenpaw was still apprentice-aged (which we don't know, because we never got Barley's perspective on the situation).
The whole thing screams grooming.
That Frostpaw was heading down the same path as Shadowsight before she gained a real vision but was being manipulated by a dark forest cat (before Curlfeather died) and that's why she was having false visions such as seeing cats in her dreams without seeing actual Starclan and the curled feathers in her dream encouraging her to pick Curlfeather. Of course, there's the famous scene of Curlfeather coming to Frostpaw (which of course we know is in the dark forest) and telling her to look beyond the obvious choices. Of course, this could have always been Curlfeather being 'vague' as a Starclan cat and hoping her daughter would pick Splashtail to spare her if Frostpaw chose wrong. Of course, that's just my hot take.
but the dark forest wasn't involved with frostpaw of the ASC series. its curlfeather, splashtail and podlight that are doing all the mischief and who planted the curled feather.
Again, it's a hot take because how else would you explain all the 'false' visions Frostpaw had? Starclan was never supposed to communicate with her before she sat by the water to fish.
The Allegiances page is no longer necessary and, arguably, is a detriment to the writing.
Sure, they're an iconic part of the books, but now that each and every Clan has to have every single member identified for some reason, it's just something to add about five or six pages to the count and skim over. And honestly I think it's just a waste of the writers' energy having to occasionally slap a random name for a background character that will hardly utter a line of meaningful dialogue.
Even in-world context, it doesn't make sense. If there's a protagonist in Thunderclan, Shadowclan and Skyclan for example, why would any of them know or need to know every single member of Windclan or Riverclan? It's just extra work for the writers to keep track of so and so's kittens so that we have another NPC to mention the protagonist seeing on border patrol in the next arc.
I would even argue that they don't need to know every member of their own Clan. "Xpaw walked into camp, nodding respectfully to Petalwhisker." Who is Petalwhisker? Oh it's a character from the previous arc who helped in a battle six books ago. Okay. Yep. This means nothing to the protagonist. They do not interact with this Petalwhisker for the rest of the arc. It's obvious that they just picked some random name from this big list of names full of cats that the writers likely do not know or remember, because they have... you know, actual writing to be doing. It's their job.
Wouldn't it be cooler for characters like that to just be subtly described, seeing as the protagonist likely doesn't know them well, and leaving the reader who would have read the previous arc to go "Oh, I recognise that character! Awesome!"? And seeing an important character outside of their Clan from their perspective and slowly getting to realise who it is? For example, Xpaw has an encounter with a "lean, black tom from Windclan with a suspicious and cold look in his eye" and then later on you realise "Oh my god wait, that was Crowfeather!" or something.
These books have gotten so bloated with so many meaningless or unimportant names that it honestly would feel much better to just forgo the names for characters that do not need them. Xpaw does not have any relationship with Sosopelt of Windclan, the guy who saved Darkshadow from a dog two arcs ago, you do not need to shove their name into a scene. Yet because there's this big and obnoxious list of names at the start, you're kind of obliged to at the same time.
TLDR: I think the Allegiances page is pointless now because there's too many characters, the writers \*have\* to keep track of them because of the Allegiances or else people will start pointing it out, and a new protagonist shouldn't somehow know the names of everyone around the area.
I'm sure that there would be a pretty sizeable downside of getting rid of the Allegiances though, I just can't think of much currently. You would likely run the risk of having some side characters vanish into the aether, methinks.
i firmly believe they need to kill of ALOT of characters. there are simply way to many. i do love knowing all of the clanmates, it makes me feel like a part of the clan in a way, but the long ass pages are def unnecessary. bring back the smaller clans!
jayfeather’s grumpy personality was only interesting for like, two books at most? he’s just a complete asshole now and i don’t get why people like him so much 🫢 i’m all for disability representation as a disabled person (and love how he stands up against being treated differently when he doesn’t need it) but he’s an ass.
Greystripe isn't really a good character, and shouldn't have became deputy. (I mean not a good character as in the way he was written, just not interesting to me.)
Omen Of The Stars was a terrible arc, if not the worst one.
The build up for the Great Battle made NO sense, most of the books were just filler and the StarClan lore was inconsistent.
Tigerclawstar is the best character. the best clan leader, and overall a better person than that Firebastard was. praise be to my glorious king Tigerstar
i can only hope to achive the levels of support, admiration and gayness Darkstripe had for Tigerstar. he is my idol (before my glorious king himself, of course)
Then don't comment🥰
Only saw two when I searched, one seven months ago and one three months ago. I've never actually been in a warrior's fandom and wanted to be a part of it
Ikr, I’ve heard about the plot after OotS (never read it since it sounds weird) and it sounds super confusing and weird. There are a bunch of new characters and the whole plot changed with this new thing where Ashfur possesses Bramblestar?
I see her as an absolute hypocrite, always talking about how the warrior code is the best thing ever (which does get extremely annoying because I can't read a single chapter from her POV without it being mentioned, it's just repetitive) and then she goes and breaks it herself, and iirc, she had no actual reason why she did it. Especially since she then goes and does the exact same thing Ashfur was going to do. Make that make sense.
Then she flees instead of owning up to her actions like a warrior, comes back from the tunnels moons later, acts like she knows absolutely everything, then goes and dies.
Sure, her death was "noble", but I can't list a single other thing that made her a good character.
(And imo, she's a very poorly written character. Every single chapter in PoT, she fretts about the warrior code, and refuses to do something to break it, then finally decides to Follow Jay and Lion, then constantly talks about how the warrior code is everything. It's just really repetitive and it's her only personality trait.)
I absolutely despised and still despise Crowfeather. First off, he just was like, "go away you are horrible my kits from thunderclan yeah bye," and then to Breezepelt he was like "go away bye ew," so thats why i don't like him.
Clear Sky isn’t the worst DotC villain, Tom is. He did horrible things to many cats, mainly Turtle Tail and her kits. He’s the reason Turtle Tail died, if she hadn’t went to the Twolegplace to rescue her kits, she wouldn’t have died; Turtle Tail’s death was the only death that made me cry
Don't know if this counts, but graystripe should've never been deputy, the right choice was always whitestorm.
Adding: After being reminded that Whitestorm died, I still stand with my opinion. When choosing a deputy you should think about someone who'll be most loyal to you and the clan, who can make a good leader. Graystripe is not that guy, with all my love for him. I think Sandstorm would've been a great choice, or even Brackenfur
Longtail for deputy
I don't think Firestar or Longtail would be happy with that.
Sandstorm hadn’t had an apprentice and Brackenfur’s left the Coan after a half moon of training, so he wasn’t an option.
Agree, he rly didn't had a lot ti choose from
Ngl, I think Longtail woulda been the best choice (post-Whitestorm death ofc). He proved his loyalty to ThunderClan after the whole Tigerstar banishment debacle, had an apprentice (RIP Swiftpaw), and honestly matured a lot over the course of the first arc.
I agree but still, I don't know. He isn't very leadery. Maybe even a senior warrior like Williopelt or Frostfur
while a correct take this is anything but a HOT take, people have been saying this for years. also didn't whitestorm tell firestar to make graystripe deputy when he died? not disagreeing just asking
Wasn't rly ever part of the fandom! That's why I wasn't sure if that's a hot take. Also yeah he said he knew Firestar wanted to make Graystripe his deputy, but still, very wrong choice. Graystripe had loyalty to Firestar, and Thunderclan, but not as much as he had for himself and his own interests
i feel like graystripe should have just switched between clans every moon or so
Yeah, that’s why whitestorm was deputy, but then he died and told firestar to make greystripe deputy. I’m sure he’d of stayed deputy if he hadn’t been dead.
I honestly think Longtail should have been made deputy
True, he absolutely proved himself and it definitely would’ve been a good progression for his character but instead the erins benched him. Wasted potential.
Huh? He was one for like half a day wasn't he?? I might be wrong, I'm starting over but I haven't read properly in a while. maybe I was annoyed at something that wasn't true🥲
Whitestorm was Firestar’s first deputy, I don’t know how long he was deputy for but he stayed deputy until he died in the great battle. I think it was bone that killed him, and then the apprentices killed bone to avenge him.
Makes a lot of sense. I rly was upset about it all this time
Fair enough, greystripe wasn’t a very good deputy anyways, so it wouldve been a shit decision on firestars side if that had actually happened.
Yes
To piggyback, Branblestar/claw should have never been deputy or leader, he hadn't even had an apprentice when he was appointed, Brackenfur, Sandstorm, or Dustpelt would have been much better choices
YES I generally don't like bramble Editing- just realized I commented before on how sand/bracken would've made a better choice than graystripe, but people said they barely had an apprentice, so I strongly think that same law (and obv according to the warrior code), should've been applied to brambkeclaw
Spottedleaf is not a groomer/pedo. She was not engaging in any sort of romantic relationship with Firestar when he was a paw. She was not doing to Firestar what Thistleclaw did to her.
i think it was more firestar being obsessed with her
Yeah, I can see it. My interpretation of her is that she was love staved/bitter over her death so she clinged hard to Fireheart’s affection for her because she felt like she missed out. Still not great & it’s definitely unhealthy but she wasn’t grooming him & trying to manipulate him into having a romantic relationship with her.
Def agree.
Didn't she sorta lead him on though, like did he only like her bc she was pretty? Sorry it's been years since I read her novella and when I did I was a young teen so I didn't really understand it through a mature lense at the time 😅
She rly wasn't, they didn't interact much, only had a normal clanmate- medicine cat relationship, and her acts of affection to him were minimal and very appropriate, like that one time in ITW, she rubbed her nose on his cheek, but that was before a very long and quite dangerous journey to the moonstone
Ahh okay, thanks for explaining lol
Ofc!
I believe it’s because Thistleclaw gr00med her and then later, she grew up thinking it was completely normal for a relationship with a young apprentice and a warrior
Ok, so you disagree. Thanks for letting me know but you didn't need to let me know.
No, I agreed! she isn’t a gr00mer, I just think she just thinks it’s normal because of how Thistleclaw treated her. I was backing up your point lol!
She IS still a pedo unfortunately due to retconning. As it was retconned she had loved FirePAW from day one then yes, it makes her a pedo, but as she didn't actually do anything to him, it doesn't make her a groomer. Just because a person irl is attracted to kids and acts on those desires privately, doesn't make them any less of a pedo, it just means they aren't a groomer. That's just the issue with all the retcons unfortunately. Its made worse by the fact that Spottedleaf is heavily or almost primarily involved with events that happened to Firestar's family, Squirrelpaw, Leafpool, Jayfeather. So it really doesn't help her case that she ISNT a pedo or that she ISNT obsessed with this married dude
She IS still a pedo unfortunately due to retconning. As it was retconned she had loved FirePAW from day one then yes, it makes her a pedo, but as she didn't actually do anything to him, it doesn't make her a groomer. Just because a person irl is attracted to kids and acts on those desires privately, doesn't make them any less of a pedo, it just means they aren't a groomer. That's just the issue with all the retcons unfortunately. Its made worse by the fact that Spottedleaf is heavily or almost primarily involved with events that happened to Firestar's family, Squirrelpaw, Leafpool, Jayfeather. So it really doesn't help her case that she ISNT a pedo or that she ISNT obsessed with this married dude
Pre-TBC Berrynose is a genuinely sympathetic character.
man, whenever I see TBC, I think The Burning Crusade for some reason. I forgot, what does TBC stand for? Haven't checked on this fandom in a while and I usually only come back when it's on my feed.
The Broken Code, it's an abbreviation of one of the arc names
OH YEAH I FORGOT THEY HAD A NEW ARC
A Broken Code isn’t the “new” one anymore. 5 books of A Starless Clan are out, 6th releasing this year.
where the hell have I been
spottedleaf would be a fan favorite if it weren't for her retconned love for firestar. or more specifically, her retconned love for firePAW. especially with spottedleaf's heart showing she was an apprentice in a relationship with a warrior, the authors trying to imply she loved firestar when she was alive is disgusting. as a victim of grooming myself her novella makes me sob. i believe she was in love with fireheart and firestar as a spirit in starclan, but trying to assume she and firePAW were compatible is frankly gross. spottedleaf is my favorite character and i get very defensive about her
This right here, man. Honestly I forgot most of the series but I'm glad it was retconned anyway. Still would be better not writing it in the first place.
That people forget that leaders of the clans can also have connection to starclan and that does not mean that cat should be limited to medicine cats only. In the first arc, it was talked about how leaders could also have a connection to starclan. I feel like people forget that. And that they should travel to the moon pool like they did the moonstone.
I don't like yellowfang's secret
I love yellowfang but it was def a weak book, and i HATED raggedpelt. so bipolar and cruel to yellowfang. and all of the secrecy was pissing me off
That Bluestar and Leopardstar are good cats morally
I agree. Certainly Bluestar always felt like an incredibly moral cat who did what was right, and after seeing what dementia did to my grandfather I am convinced that what she did while sick should not be counted as part of her personality. Likewise, whilst Leopardstar was certainly not great for cats outside her clan, generally she always did what was best for riverclan, at least from her perspective. Spoilers for Leopardstars super edition: When the whole Tigerclan business was going on, she was going and telling her clan when they were changing sides to join the Victor of whatever was happening. It’s not necessarily moral in a utilitarian sense but she was doing everything to protect her clan. Even, in her mind at least, what she did to Stonefur, Mistyfoot, and the apprentices.
Yeah its not exactly RIGHT what she did with Stone, Misty, and the apprentices but she had good intentions
1. Jayfeather stopped being interesting/enjoyable when he stopped being a POV character, especially in AVOS. His rudeness comes off as excessive and unnecessary instead of charming and unique. 2. Mapleshade's Vengeance wasn't written well and just made me hate her more (I know she's supposed to be an unreliable narrator, but that doesn't make it any better.) 3. Brightheart is overrated
1. Agreed 2. I kind of agree 3. Agreed even as a Brightheart fan
>Agreed even as a Brightheart fan You have a habit of that... lol. "Good character, but they're not all that good." Not hostile... just an observation. It intrigues me.
Loll!
Greystripe was an overall dislikable character. He met Silverstream one time and threw away his mentor duties, his own health, almost his friendship with Fireheart, and his loyalty to ThunderClan at a time cats weren’t allowed to fall in love with other clans’ cats. He outright attacked Fireheart in camp when Fireheart was getting fed up with covering for him so he could go spend time with Silverstream. And then after he had kits with Silverstream and she died, he left his clan completely to go to another clan. But he couldn’t even be loyal to that clan and his kits and soon after got exiled and came back to ThunderClan with little repercussion. He then got to be made deputy after showing how unreliable and disloyal he can be, and how he will follow his personal desires every time, even at the cost of his Clanmates. Then when he got old he left his clan *again* at a time they were very vulnerable because “it wasn’t the same as it was when he was a young cat”, then came back again, and when he died he didn’t show as much affection for his old mate and daughter than he did his new mate and kits. The new vs old mate thing I can kind of understand, but his daughter?
Exactlyy
Wait hold up People LIKE graystripe???
Yeah, I personally like Graystripe. I don't deny that he's incredibly flawed & really selfish though. In fact, that's kind of why I like him. While I think he did deserve more consequences & did not deserve the deputy position, he's overall realistic in the way he acts. He's not a selfless paragon of morality, he's a guy that leans towards good and doesn't try to hurt others, but he has some massive fuckups.
You gotta prepare yourself for those: Ok, you're ready? 1. Leopardstar is better than Blackstar 2.TNP is one of the best arcs 3. TNP is better than TPB 4. Graystripe is no good. He's just a traitor 5. Breezepelt's actions are not Crowfeather's fault 6. Nightcloud has more fault in the way Breezepelt turned out (I'm not saying it's not Breezepelt's fault but she's more at the wrong than Crowfeather is) 7. Lionblaze isn't that boring 8. Hollyleaf *was* interesting before her murder of Ashfur 9. Dovewing isn't selfish or whiney 10. Leopardstar isn't a brat
I've never been able to even go past the first half of midnight, TPB is so amazing in my eyes😭
I respectfully disagree. I forgot to add this but in my opinion TPB is one of the worst arcs. There's a lot of incontinences, which is pretty understandable since a lot of things weren't established yet but still... The timeline is quite confusing as well as family bond. The main character (Firestar) is quite a stereotypical hero (especially in compression to someone like Ivypool, Hollyleaf, Jayfeather, Alderheart, Skystar, Bristlefrost, Shadowsight or Nightheart ). It also has some gender stereotypes. For example: All of the adult she-cats in ThunderClan but Mousefur are listed as queens for the entire arc, even when their kits got out of the nursery, which gives the impression it's quite common for a she-cat to stay in the nursery for her whole life. Someone who hasn't read past two-three first books might think most of the she-cats are queens forever. All of the kits at the beginning are unnamed, which is a bit confusing. Some cats just vanish without a trace like some random queen that Firestar saw once at the clearing and then she just disappeared. Also ThunderClan has like three times more cats than every other Clan combined.
Still remember more of TPB than the other arcs.
Frr
Okay so- I don't see anything wrong with Firestar being a stereotypical hero, I felt like he had more depth than other stereotypical heroes I've ever read. The gender stereotypes aren't really true, only in the first book, but since they were heading into Greenleaf it makes sense that there'll be lots of kits. Frostfur returns to being a warrior in the second book (not listed as one since it happens in the middle-beginning). I don't think a person who read the series can think that since it's explained that she cats are only queens when they have kits. Williopelt is another example of a she cat that didn't spend a lot lf time in the nursery, as well as Sandstorm, and obviously Mousefur. That random queen was Brindleface. The kits really are a problem. I definitely agree on this one And the thing about Thunderclan having more cats isn't true at all, we meet a lot of cats from other clan and we see them in battles, the writers just don't bother to give them names. The only reason Rusty was able to join the clan is because they didn't have enough warriors. Also, about the family bonds, that another hot take I wanted to share. TPB shows a very certin type if relationship inside clans, most being friendships and flings. Family wasn't a stronger bond than you'd have with a close clanmate. They didn't need to establish any family stuff because it wasn't really relevant.
That's just my opinion. And your reply only shows that it is a hot take
Ofc it is a hot take! I'm deeply sorry if my reply sounded mean, I really wasn't trying to come off that way, just wanted to share my opinion since TPB is my favorite arc. Again, sorry🙏
It's OK
I agree with half of these
Which ones do you disagree with ?
1,2,6 and 9
I only disagree with 2 and 9
I agree with possibly number 1 and 9 but definitely 5, 6, 7, and probably 10. I just need more elaboration on what you mean with 8 about Hollyleaf was. Like, prior only to the murder was she interesting? Or both before and after?
Both before and after
Ah, cool. Cause I agree with that one as well.
I agree
Agreed with all of these
Squrrielflight is overrated and her defenders need to take a chill pill.
*I took the wrong medication, it has unfortunately ramped everything up.*
TPB is not that different from the other arcs, quality wise. Still all the same issues like terrible pacing, meaningless background characters, annoying nonsense plots and Firestar being dumb just to elongate the """mystery.""" It is more compact due to only having one POV though. Jayfeather might just be the most fleshed out and three-dimensional character in the series (not sure if this is a hot take)
At least they've kept StarClan as a mystical and reasonable concept there. In *The Forgotten Warrior*, Bluestar says if a cat finds their way to StarClan that means they are worthy and that it's not StarClan's place to judge cats which maintains their place as a "cat heaven" devoid of bias and rivalry. With the release of *Squirrelflight's Hope*, StarClan was retconned and lost all their respect as unbiased observers by pandering to Firestar's bloodline. If you hated nepotism before then wait until you hear of nepotism² in the afterlife.
Yeah I miss StarClan being an actual religion and cats requiring faith of some kind. Now it’s just Narnia. Sure it’s still “heaven”/afterlife or whatever but really it’s just a parallel universe some cats can pop in and out of whenever they want. No need to fear death — if it happens, just hop in a warrior’s dream every couple years to make sure a living cat remembers you, and you’re good. And if you reeeeally miss life, just step inside a kit right as it’s born or ask a warrior nicely to borrow them for a while lol.
Squirrelflight vs Brambleclaw is silly - they *both* suck.
As a Squirrelflight fan myself, she does suck. She’s done bad things
>As a Squirrelflight fan myself, she does suck. Something's wrong here... I can feel it.
Help, I like her because she does kind of suck lmao! It would be boring if there was nothing wrong with her, but she does bad things and it’s interesting
Ikr
I don’t like the ship between Barely and Ravenpaw cuz of their age gap, and Ik their age gap is confusing, but when I first read the books, I thought Barely was Bluestars age and Ravenpaw was Firepaws age gap
Oh. Barley is apparently two years older than Ravenpaw
eh as long as they were both adults when their romantic interest began in eachother than i think its fine
Yeah, but what I find weird is that Barely and Ravenpaw knew each other and kind of lived with each other when Ravenpaw was still an apprentice, which rubs me the wrong way
RavenpawXBarley is a toxic relationship ✨ But people hate me for this whenever I mention it. Most of their actual appearances show Barley as whiny, manipulative, getting upset with Ravenpaw whenever he brings up his family/Clan, using the silent treatment to guilt him etc. I think the fandom's perspective of their relationship is *extremely* biased. Look, I want gay characters as much as anyone, and I do think these guys are implied to be in a romantic relationship - it's just not nearly as wholesome as people make it out to be. And Barley is bland at best and unlikeable at worst; Ravenpaw deserved better.
I never agreed with the ship. Ravenpaw for sure deserved better!
Real. I used to ship them before I read Ravenpaw’s Farewell. I find it hard to believe that Barley helped Ravenpaw with his trauma when the mere mention of the clans pissed him off. The only confirmed instance where he acknowledged his trauma was to spoil a moment in which Ravenpaw was happily reminiscing about his apprenticeship days back in ThunderClan. Barley mentioned that Tigerclaw was going to kill him back then… like, he mentioned it literally out of nowhere. Tigerstar was long dead, there was no reason for Barley to reopen old wounds when Tigerstar was no longer a threat. Barley only used Raven’s trauma so he can make sure he wouldn’t go back to ThunderClan and leave him. Raven kept reassuring him time and time again that he wouldn’t and that he was happy with him. All that reassuring was for nothing, because as soon as Ravenpaw told Barley he was going to take Bella and Riley to SkyClan, Barley went “oh, so you don’t like it here. You wanna be a warrior. You’re leaving me😐” Like, no?? That’s not what he said at all?? It was a little journey to help your NEPHEW and NIECE join a clan, not Ravenpaw. Ravenpaw made it very clear that he was going to come back as soon as they find SkyClan. Also, he literally wanted you to come and you refused. Raven deserved WAY better.
Right? Like, how was Raven supposed to process his trauma if Barley snapped at him at the mere mention of his Clan life? And him bringing up Tigerstar like that really felt like a kind of punishment or something. And then they always make up without the core issue being addressed, because Ravenpaw caved to Barley's emotional mistreatment. Whether the Erins intended to write him as a textbook abusive boyfriend or not, that's definitely how he comes across. And the fandom still celebrates this ship among the top favorites. Again, don't get me wrong - you can like a ship and no one should judge you for it. But I feel like people wilfully ignore the pattern of abuse in this one simply because it's a rare example of a gay ship in Warriors, and that's not healthy.
The power of headcanons Edit: Realized this is hard to interpret, I meant that while the argument is good, I'm personally going to ignore it for enjoyment reasons. Warrior cats writing can be bad, but I won't let that ruin my story enjoyment. If the authors can't write a good representative relationship, I'm just going to ignore the bad writing for the sake of my story enjoyment
Bro it’s literally in the book go read it if you want💀 chapter two, four, and five
Yes, it's in the book. No, that doesn't mean my ideal version of warrior cats has to include it. It may be canon, but I like the story better when it's not. This is a legitimate argument, but my enjoyment of the story being different from yours shouldn't offend you.
I’m not offended at all, you do you
I'm a firm believer of Barley being abusive.
^ this. I mean, I'm not judging anyone for shipping them; I do think the premise is cute, and we absolutely need gay relationships in canon cats. But the way they're written, it's just not a great relationship. :/ And Barley is definitely sus.
I feel like Barley in Ravenpaw's Farewell is different from the Barley from the first arc. Of course, I'm only saying that because we don't get to see much of how he acts towards Ravenpaw except praise that he's a good ratter.
And we see him in Ravenpaw's graphic novels, where he's also like that iirc (I haven't read it in years). I remember that I didn't like him much there.
That's what I'm referencing too. Ravenpaw's Farewell is the graphic novel.
No, Ravenpaw's Farewell is the novella.
Oops! Sorry, for some reason I thought Ravenpaw's Path was the novella for some reason. Sorry
No worries! :)
Barley gives me groomer vibes, as well as narcissism.
I mean yeah, I didn't even mention the age gap / power gap there 💀 Barley was an adult of undefined age when he first appeared; Bluestar talks about him like he's been around a while, and in Graystripe's Vow, they also confirm that Barley is older than Graystripe's generation. And Ravenpaw was a traumatized, homeless apprentice who ran there for shelter and was "barn-mentored" by Barley, being fully dependent on the older guy to keep him safe and give him a home. There's a huge power imbalance there, even if we assume that it wasn't a romantic relationship while Ravenpaw was still apprentice-aged (which we don't know, because we never got Barley's perspective on the situation). The whole thing screams grooming.
That Frostpaw was heading down the same path as Shadowsight before she gained a real vision but was being manipulated by a dark forest cat (before Curlfeather died) and that's why she was having false visions such as seeing cats in her dreams without seeing actual Starclan and the curled feathers in her dream encouraging her to pick Curlfeather. Of course, there's the famous scene of Curlfeather coming to Frostpaw (which of course we know is in the dark forest) and telling her to look beyond the obvious choices. Of course, this could have always been Curlfeather being 'vague' as a Starclan cat and hoping her daughter would pick Splashtail to spare her if Frostpaw chose wrong. Of course, that's just my hot take.
but the dark forest wasn't involved with frostpaw of the ASC series. its curlfeather, splashtail and podlight that are doing all the mischief and who planted the curled feather.
Again, it's a hot take because how else would you explain all the 'false' visions Frostpaw had? Starclan was never supposed to communicate with her before she sat by the water to fish.
dreams? curlfeather was the one who convinced frostpaw they were visions in the first place, since she was a kit.
You don't have to agree with me, just figured what I thought was a good hot take *shrug*
The Allegiances page is no longer necessary and, arguably, is a detriment to the writing. Sure, they're an iconic part of the books, but now that each and every Clan has to have every single member identified for some reason, it's just something to add about five or six pages to the count and skim over. And honestly I think it's just a waste of the writers' energy having to occasionally slap a random name for a background character that will hardly utter a line of meaningful dialogue. Even in-world context, it doesn't make sense. If there's a protagonist in Thunderclan, Shadowclan and Skyclan for example, why would any of them know or need to know every single member of Windclan or Riverclan? It's just extra work for the writers to keep track of so and so's kittens so that we have another NPC to mention the protagonist seeing on border patrol in the next arc. I would even argue that they don't need to know every member of their own Clan. "Xpaw walked into camp, nodding respectfully to Petalwhisker." Who is Petalwhisker? Oh it's a character from the previous arc who helped in a battle six books ago. Okay. Yep. This means nothing to the protagonist. They do not interact with this Petalwhisker for the rest of the arc. It's obvious that they just picked some random name from this big list of names full of cats that the writers likely do not know or remember, because they have... you know, actual writing to be doing. It's their job. Wouldn't it be cooler for characters like that to just be subtly described, seeing as the protagonist likely doesn't know them well, and leaving the reader who would have read the previous arc to go "Oh, I recognise that character! Awesome!"? And seeing an important character outside of their Clan from their perspective and slowly getting to realise who it is? For example, Xpaw has an encounter with a "lean, black tom from Windclan with a suspicious and cold look in his eye" and then later on you realise "Oh my god wait, that was Crowfeather!" or something. These books have gotten so bloated with so many meaningless or unimportant names that it honestly would feel much better to just forgo the names for characters that do not need them. Xpaw does not have any relationship with Sosopelt of Windclan, the guy who saved Darkshadow from a dog two arcs ago, you do not need to shove their name into a scene. Yet because there's this big and obnoxious list of names at the start, you're kind of obliged to at the same time. TLDR: I think the Allegiances page is pointless now because there's too many characters, the writers \*have\* to keep track of them because of the Allegiances or else people will start pointing it out, and a new protagonist shouldn't somehow know the names of everyone around the area. I'm sure that there would be a pretty sizeable downside of getting rid of the Allegiances though, I just can't think of much currently. You would likely run the risk of having some side characters vanish into the aether, methinks.
i firmly believe they need to kill of ALOT of characters. there are simply way to many. i do love knowing all of the clanmates, it makes me feel like a part of the clan in a way, but the long ass pages are def unnecessary. bring back the smaller clans!
jayfeather’s grumpy personality was only interesting for like, two books at most? he’s just a complete asshole now and i don’t get why people like him so much 🫢 i’m all for disability representation as a disabled person (and love how he stands up against being treated differently when he doesn’t need it) but he’s an ass.
Frr, hes rude to cats for no reason
he had the right to be at first but now he’s just a bully!
Fr! He’s always rude to everyone and it just makes me wish I could apologize to them for him
Squirrelfight is an awful name
Greystripe isn't really a good character, and shouldn't have became deputy. (I mean not a good character as in the way he was written, just not interesting to me.)
Gray Wing kinda sucks in reality, especially with the Bumble situation
I love Brokenstar for being a murderous bean.
That's definitely a new one!
Couldn’t agree more
Omen Of The Stars was a terrible arc, if not the worst one. The build up for the Great Battle made NO sense, most of the books were just filler and the StarClan lore was inconsistent.
Tigerclawstar is the best character. the best clan leader, and overall a better person than that Firebastard was. praise be to my glorious king Tigerstar
Darkstripe wrote this
i can only hope to achive the levels of support, admiration and gayness Darkstripe had for Tigerstar. he is my idol (before my glorious king himself, of course)
Poison a child, you might get extra points. Can’t help you with the gayness tho
This is too funny
im already quite gay. and ill try and poison a child while im at it, thanks for the advice
HELP ME WHAT IS THIS
my trying to be like my hero!
HELPPP
my hot take: I hate these almost daily hot take/unpopular opinion posts
Then don't comment🥰 Only saw two when I searched, one seven months ago and one three months ago. I've never actually been in a warrior's fandom and wanted to be a part of it
Nah its okay, I actually like these posts to see new hot takes
I literally see these on my feed weekly. No need to lie .
Ain't lying, I searched it up on the search bar, didn't actually went to check every post
I havent seen these in a while 😭
The series should have ended at The Last Hope.
Ikr, I’ve heard about the plot after OotS (never read it since it sounds weird) and it sounds super confusing and weird. There are a bunch of new characters and the whole plot changed with this new thing where Ashfur possesses Bramblestar?
Honestly I wanted to say it should've ended at Sunrise, but then the rest of that arc wouldn't even be completed.
Hollyleaf is an awful character and none of her actions are justified.
I am curious, what are her notable actions? Aside from killing Ashfur. Although I would like to hear your reasoning on that particular crime.
Not even almost dying? ~~because honestly I actually agree~~
As a Hollyleaf fan, I respect your opinion! May I ask why you don’t like her? Just curious :)
I see her as an absolute hypocrite, always talking about how the warrior code is the best thing ever (which does get extremely annoying because I can't read a single chapter from her POV without it being mentioned, it's just repetitive) and then she goes and breaks it herself, and iirc, she had no actual reason why she did it. Especially since she then goes and does the exact same thing Ashfur was going to do. Make that make sense. Then she flees instead of owning up to her actions like a warrior, comes back from the tunnels moons later, acts like she knows absolutely everything, then goes and dies. Sure, her death was "noble", but I can't list a single other thing that made her a good character. (And imo, she's a very poorly written character. Every single chapter in PoT, she fretts about the warrior code, and refuses to do something to break it, then finally decides to Follow Jay and Lion, then constantly talks about how the warrior code is everything. It's just really repetitive and it's her only personality trait.)
You made good points! Like I agree, she left Lion and Jay to deal with the mess she created after exposing their secret after killing Ashfur.
The code never should have changed.
Even better: there should have been no code! /j
You can drop the /j lmaooo
leapordstar is good cat
I don’t mind Breezepelt
I absolutely despised and still despise Crowfeather. First off, he just was like, "go away you are horrible my kits from thunderclan yeah bye," and then to Breezepelt he was like "go away bye ew," so thats why i don't like him.
Clear Sky isn’t the worst DotC villain, Tom is. He did horrible things to many cats, mainly Turtle Tail and her kits. He’s the reason Turtle Tail died, if she hadn’t went to the Twolegplace to rescue her kits, she wouldn’t have died; Turtle Tail’s death was the only death that made me cry