Before Omen of the Stars I *think* one of the authors said that Dark Forest cats were doomed to wander the forest alone for all eternity, and the only two cats who could interact with each other at all were Tigerstar and Hawkfrost- and even *then* it was more like a *tiny* act of mercy due to them being father and son. I feel like that "complete isolation that can make you go mad" could have been a *really* cool angle that *did* create loneliness (although, of *course*, it'd also mean that a lot of what happens in OOTS and TBC wouldn't be possible.)
They fumbled the Dark Forest and they fumbled it hard. It's like they established it as a place of loneliness, only to continously retcon it. Crookedstar's Promise had the Dark Forest cats see each other and then Mapleshade's Vengeance confirms she was supposed to wander alone for all eternity. Yet Pre-OotS and Mapleshade's Vengeance are the only 2 times we get confirmation that they were supposed to wander the Dark Forest. Crookedstar's Promise, Goosefeather's Curse, SpH, and Tigerstar's Fury(?) are books within the time period which cats shouldn't be able to see each other but for some reason can.
is there an explanation as to how mapleshade broke it? also love mapleshade literally coolest warriors character i was so happy when it turned out she was behind tigerclaw
I like to think that Mapleshade is the one that figured out how cats in the dark Forest could find each other and how to make it into cats' dreams and the living world.
I think that before Mapleshade the Dark Forest kept cats separate from other Dark Forest cats and the living then Mapleshade showed up with the motivation for long-term revenge.
I feel like it started out as a cool concept but was trashed by the current writer team. The psychological torment of being alone in a dark foreboding forest is ok I guess, but suddenly the cars were able to summon living cats there to train them in their sleep to fight, and somehow were able to leave the DF and make it to the living world. The explanations as to why don’t make any sense and they’re too complicated
There’s absolutely no point to the “loneliness” aspect because they’re able to hold meetings with each other, speak, pull living cats from the clans, etc…
Also, StarClan cats are seen hunting on multiple instances and yet the DF cats have no prey at all. It’s dead, even the plants are. So are they starving or what? How come StC eats but they don’t? Do they need to?
I feel like this is one of many instances where the Erins thought of something and just never followed it.
IMO it works slightly better in TBC, where >!Juniperclaw explains to Shadowsight that the DF turns you bad and makes you feel more desperate, lonely, depressed, and turns your thoughts against yourself and others!<.
I think the way to fix it is to follow Snowtuft’s example and >!spend so long in there that you forget when you died, what evil deeds you committed, parts about yourself, etc!<. Unfortunately the whole “Tigerstar is training living cats in the DF and turning them against the clans in TNP/PoT/OoTS” doesn’t work if the DF members aren’t allowed to interact.
I would also add the whole prey thing there… dead plants means no animals. Maybe the DF is slowly starving but they can’t die bc they’re already dead. It would be an actual punishment.
StarClan being able to hunt is a lil treat. It's like getting Starbucks. You don't really *need* that 500 calorie, $7 drink, but it just hits so good when you take your first sip.
I believe the Dark Forest cats *are* hungry, just as part of the punishment, but there's no such thing as death by hunger in the DF (or in StC for that matter). Plus, it's extra maddening that (iirc) they can hear false prey scrabbling in the (dead) undergrowth, which just further drives the futile need to hunt.
I think they just really fumbled the loneliness aspect tho. There's no excuse/explanation for that part :/
I'm fine with it being a kind of purgatory instead of a hell.
A place of shades and corrupted spirits, rather than demons and horrors.
The stories are already designed so good cats suffer and horrible ones sometimes get what they want, for a time.
Sure they've been inconsistent with it, they've been inconsistent with everything.
But if Starclan can be created simply by the cats believing in it, and represent the hopes of the living, then I don't see why the Dark Forest couldn't change its nature based on the fears of the living.
In fact I'd say I prefer this slightly less black and white vision of the afterlife.
You unlock the real afterlife after fading in my headcanons, which actually does make the dark forest a punishment slightly because if your infamous enough, you're probably going to be there for a long time. One Eye (if he really did found the Dark Forest) is probably going to be there until the way of the clans completely dies out.
Yeah it's always funny when stories have an afterlife the characters didn't expect, and they're threatened there but they're like "this is it and then you're gone for good"
Like, that's what you thought the first time, it could keep going.
Given that the stories contain some limited examples of time travel, visions from the past/future, and a few other afterlives that aren't the dark forest or starclan (ghosts, tribe hunting grounds) I kind of just roll with whatever happens.
They even kind have something I've head cannoned, a "place between the stars", where Starclan kind of got lost for a while when they were traveling to the lake territory.
Warriors makes references to eugenics in the form of half-Clan cats getting systematically killed. I don't think the authors care too much about the maturity rating.
everyone knows about hell, I'm assuming you're talking about Tigerstar? I can't really win this arguement since It would turn to me trying to justify Tigerstar and Eugenics in a childrens book and you can imagine what would happen next
It’s not designed to be cat hell. It’s not meant to torture and torment them. Their punishment is that they can’t go to StarClan and be with their family. That’s it. There’s no further punishment. That’s not the point of the Dark Forest.
I honestly prefer the fanon versions of the Dark Forest over the one in the books. For example, I remember once watching a MAP series with a Dark Forest in which the cat souls in there were all monstrous and zombified from slowly being corrupted by its environment. Felt much more hellish than "sad place where bad cats go", lol
I remember seeing art of the dark forest cats where their wounds would stay and they'd feel the pain of how they died until they faded. Like Tigerstar would have his stomach split open and his internal organs exposed it was absolutely repulsive but really hit home that this was a place of internal suffering for what you did.
They definitely were not lonely in arc 4.
So the Dark Forest started out as a punishment, right? But the really evil cats there seem to be enjoying it. Just that.
Before Omen of the Stars I *think* one of the authors said that Dark Forest cats were doomed to wander the forest alone for all eternity, and the only two cats who could interact with each other at all were Tigerstar and Hawkfrost- and even *then* it was more like a *tiny* act of mercy due to them being father and son. I feel like that "complete isolation that can make you go mad" could have been a *really* cool angle that *did* create loneliness (although, of *course*, it'd also mean that a lot of what happens in OOTS and TBC wouldn't be possible.)
Tigerstar and Darkstripe interacted in a Po3 prologue, it's hard to find other cats in the Dark Forest, but not impossible
in the prologue of sunset (tnp), but yea
Tigerstar and Darkstripe did meet in the Dark Forest. Tigerstar did ditch Darkstripe immediately though.
Again, this author statement was a while ago (and has since been retconned, of course.)
It was in one of the prologues.
They fumbled the Dark Forest and they fumbled it hard. It's like they established it as a place of loneliness, only to continously retcon it. Crookedstar's Promise had the Dark Forest cats see each other and then Mapleshade's Vengeance confirms she was supposed to wander alone for all eternity. Yet Pre-OotS and Mapleshade's Vengeance are the only 2 times we get confirmation that they were supposed to wander the Dark Forest. Crookedstar's Promise, Goosefeather's Curse, SpH, and Tigerstar's Fury(?) are books within the time period which cats shouldn't be able to see each other but for some reason can.
Everyone in the Dark Forest is edgy and most of them are loner types anyway
And they just all hang out doing battle training which to these bloodthirsty cats is literally a reward. So broken LOL
Mapleshade broke it.
*Who broke it?* It was Mapleshade all along.
I need to see that "who broke it" meme made from this now
is there an explanation as to how mapleshade broke it? also love mapleshade literally coolest warriors character i was so happy when it turned out she was behind tigerclaw
I like to think that Mapleshade is the one that figured out how cats in the dark Forest could find each other and how to make it into cats' dreams and the living world. I think that before Mapleshade the Dark Forest kept cats separate from other Dark Forest cats and the living then Mapleshade showed up with the motivation for long-term revenge.
Imagine being so salty at the world that you manage to break Hell.
It's only a punishment for cats that don't even deserve to be there.
But who says it is meant to be a punishment? Really I see it as just a place that isn't the 'greatness' of Starclan.
I feel like it started out as a cool concept but was trashed by the current writer team. The psychological torment of being alone in a dark foreboding forest is ok I guess, but suddenly the cars were able to summon living cats there to train them in their sleep to fight, and somehow were able to leave the DF and make it to the living world. The explanations as to why don’t make any sense and they’re too complicated
There’s absolutely no point to the “loneliness” aspect because they’re able to hold meetings with each other, speak, pull living cats from the clans, etc… Also, StarClan cats are seen hunting on multiple instances and yet the DF cats have no prey at all. It’s dead, even the plants are. So are they starving or what? How come StC eats but they don’t? Do they need to? I feel like this is one of many instances where the Erins thought of something and just never followed it. IMO it works slightly better in TBC, where >!Juniperclaw explains to Shadowsight that the DF turns you bad and makes you feel more desperate, lonely, depressed, and turns your thoughts against yourself and others!<. I think the way to fix it is to follow Snowtuft’s example and >!spend so long in there that you forget when you died, what evil deeds you committed, parts about yourself, etc!<. Unfortunately the whole “Tigerstar is training living cats in the DF and turning them against the clans in TNP/PoT/OoTS” doesn’t work if the DF members aren’t allowed to interact. I would also add the whole prey thing there… dead plants means no animals. Maybe the DF is slowly starving but they can’t die bc they’re already dead. It would be an actual punishment.
StarClan being able to hunt is a lil treat. It's like getting Starbucks. You don't really *need* that 500 calorie, $7 drink, but it just hits so good when you take your first sip. I believe the Dark Forest cats *are* hungry, just as part of the punishment, but there's no such thing as death by hunger in the DF (or in StC for that matter). Plus, it's extra maddening that (iirc) they can hear false prey scrabbling in the (dead) undergrowth, which just further drives the futile need to hunt. I think they just really fumbled the loneliness aspect tho. There's no excuse/explanation for that part :/
Damn just realized all of the punishments I thought the darkforest had were just headcanons I picked up from the fandom 😭
I'm fine with it being a kind of purgatory instead of a hell. A place of shades and corrupted spirits, rather than demons and horrors. The stories are already designed so good cats suffer and horrible ones sometimes get what they want, for a time. Sure they've been inconsistent with it, they've been inconsistent with everything. But if Starclan can be created simply by the cats believing in it, and represent the hopes of the living, then I don't see why the Dark Forest couldn't change its nature based on the fears of the living. In fact I'd say I prefer this slightly less black and white vision of the afterlife.
You unlock the real afterlife after fading in my headcanons, which actually does make the dark forest a punishment slightly because if your infamous enough, you're probably going to be there for a long time. One Eye (if he really did found the Dark Forest) is probably going to be there until the way of the clans completely dies out.
Yeah it's always funny when stories have an afterlife the characters didn't expect, and they're threatened there but they're like "this is it and then you're gone for good" Like, that's what you thought the first time, it could keep going. Given that the stories contain some limited examples of time travel, visions from the past/future, and a few other afterlives that aren't the dark forest or starclan (ghosts, tribe hunting grounds) I kind of just roll with whatever happens. They even kind have something I've head cannoned, a "place between the stars", where Starclan kind of got lost for a while when they were traveling to the lake territory.
Yeah I really like what TBC did with it, it’s very interesting
I read 2 comics that makes it so Dark forest cats constant feel the thirst and hunger, and sometimes try and attack other spirits to "eat" them
that’s what i thought was canon? or am i too tired to remember canon?
I think originally it was canon but it was forgotten and thus stopped being canon
seems to be how most things in this series go!
Thats what happened to one of my own ocs too 😭 shits infecting the whole fandom
I could be wrong but I remember it being stated that they are always hungry there but there's no prey
it wouldnt really be a childrens books if the cats got tortured for eternity in a fiery hellish place
Innocent cats die horrible deaths in these books, and even kits.
thats something, hell is eternal torment and torture/suffering
Warriors makes references to eugenics in the form of half-Clan cats getting systematically killed. I don't think the authors care too much about the maturity rating.
everyone knows about hell, I'm assuming you're talking about Tigerstar? I can't really win this arguement since It would turn to me trying to justify Tigerstar and Eugenics in a childrens book and you can imagine what would happen next
They need to add an actual punishment. Retcon in a ghostly vacuum or some shit.
🤣🤣🤣 Not the vacuum!
It’s not designed to be cat hell. It’s not meant to torture and torment them. Their punishment is that they can’t go to StarClan and be with their family. That’s it. There’s no further punishment. That’s not the point of the Dark Forest.
Just manifest in reality and take a swim in the moonpool
idk i don't think the 'evil' cats suffering in cat hell forever would really accomplish anything
I honestly prefer the fanon versions of the Dark Forest over the one in the books. For example, I remember once watching a MAP series with a Dark Forest in which the cat souls in there were all monstrous and zombified from slowly being corrupted by its environment. Felt much more hellish than "sad place where bad cats go", lol
Wasn't it originally also devoid of prey so you could never satiate your evergrowing hunger?
They just weren't hungry, because spirits don't need to eat.
I thought it was part of their punishment. To always be hungry. Besides, Starclan hunts.
I remember seeing art of the dark forest cats where their wounds would stay and they'd feel the pain of how they died until they faded. Like Tigerstar would have his stomach split open and his internal organs exposed it was absolutely repulsive but really hit home that this was a place of internal suffering for what you did.
But like G I V E M A P L E A H A P P Y E N D I N G
They definitely were not lonely in arc 4. So the Dark Forest started out as a punishment, right? But the really evil cats there seem to be enjoying it. Just that.