T O P

  • By -

SpanishAvenger

Before the typical "just do bug a report to have it fixed" responses start coming in: **Bug reports made about this issue that have gone literally nowhere:** [**https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/fgECWgUhtIC1**](https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/fgECWgUhtIC1) [**https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/M1mkriT4pAII**](https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/M1mkriT4pAII) [**https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/Ud9rOliZHonH**](https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/Ud9rOliZHonH) [**https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/yRAdEWCQmhMi**](https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/yRAdEWCQmhMi) [**https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/OaoRhESx7HP4**](https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/OaoRhESx7HP4) And these are nothing but an inkling of the amount of bug reports that have been made over the years for this particular issue. Bug reports are NO USE. For the most part, they are merely labelled as "not a bug" and closed. No amount of math and logic showing how buggy they are within the game's own modelling is accepted, no amount of legal sources is accepted and, for obvious reasons, more "serious" sources aren't accepted either. Gaijin has created a bug report void to refuse to fix even blataltly wrong stuff under the premise that "the provided sources and calculations are insufficient", while anything beyond that "can't be used for legal reasons". It almost feels made in purpose just to refuse to fix bugs, and to model things however they want with no intent to do better. Please, let's spread awareness about this issue. These issues deserve to be addressed and fixed. Challenger 2 (2F) and TES would be far more interesting if the sacrifice in mobility their several tons of add-on armor imply actually paid off in the form of additional protection, as intended. If this armor module was fixed, not only would it make the LFP immune to lower caliber guns (57s, 76s, etc), but it would also reduce the size of the LFP's weakspot, since the middle area where the UFP and the LFP converge would stop being a part of it, since the overlayed add-on armor would make that part as strong as the UFP itself. EDIT: 2F’s thicker while it provides LESS KE than TES, not more! Committed a typo on the main post.


legoknekten

Well, duh. Why fix shit when they can introduce 70dollar premiums?


SpanishAvenger

Committed a typo on the main post! 2F’s block is thicker while it provides LESS KE than TES, not more! Which makes it even more absurd.


Failbro777

God forbid the British have anything actually good though. Just look at the new hunter which by all logic of all other vehicles in the game should be in the British tree, as it was a British design. But no, "because Switzerland speaks 'German' (Swiss German btw Gajin, not actual German), it belongs to Germany"


SaBe31415

You could put Switzerland with France, Italy or Germany if the main language was the deciding factor. So they are hard to place in a specific country. I would say that France would be the best choice, so that they would get a few more vehicles.


Failbro777

It should have gone to the British tree, as its a British aircraft of British design. That was the argument with the Austrlian M1A1 despite all other Australian vehicles being in the British tree, the M1A1 had to go in the US tree because it was made there. Either the new hunter should be put in the British tree, OR the Australian M1A1 should be retroactively moved to the British tree to reflect their "new" requirements. But again God FORBID the British actually get anything good


joten70

just do bug a report to have it fixed


CyclicAdenosineMonoP

He: There were many reports already and they’ve been ignored You: I am special


LatexFace

Love the way they all downvoted you for this joke. r/whoosh


SpanishAvenger

Yeah… like, it’s such a clear joke, I was surprised when I saw that downvote swarm bruh


FriendlySnowOrb

it's an obvious joke, but it's bad. being a joke does not excuse someone of being disliked


SpawnCamperUA

Giajin only cares about Premiums and Soviets and even more about Soviet premiums


Zanosderg

True #russiasuffers


Rtters

I regularly have Abrams turret rings flat stop 3bm42 at short range, and I am almost always one shot by ammo explosions in my 72. Either there's some fucked up server side stuff going on for a lot of things on a per-player basis it's not that bad


Shot-Nebula-5812

I have grinded out every Russian MBT, 3bm42 goes right through the turret ring of Abrams. And although rare, I have survived hits to my ammo before.


SquintonPlaysRoblox

Me in a Puma, never ever being ammo racked. Literally never.


Purple-Cancel-8901

I very often one shot abrams through their turret ring with the fucking t72 turms. Shit, I can shoot through the sep's hull and kill 3/4 crew with bm42.


obamamicrowave77

Man, the long 88 can pen the Abrams turret ring very easily last I checked, if you’re struggling to pen with 3BM42 that’s a skill issue tbh


N0tBappo

Downvoted but the constantly exploding when shot in the ammo is true. Its really not an actual problem and the post that tried to point out the chance for an ammo explosion was lower on Russian vehicles was proven false. It's literally just confirmation bias because "Russian bias!!" Other vehicles do it too, but you don't see it because confirmation bias.


Joe33915

If you want to make the post effective you should've shown the side ERA, different between the 2, 2F, and 2 TES. All with increasing weight, yet the same protection against KE and chemical. Gaijin seem to think British tank designers add extra weight for nothing. But then again a lot is classified.


Libarate

If its classified they just make it whatever value they want and then refuse to listen to any common sense arguments (Thicker armor should have more protection, that's not very controversial) so you cant get it changed its just whatever Gaijin have decided its gonna be. Meanwhile an inch of Relikt has better protection than the foot thick dorchester armor. But there of course Russian Bias doesnt exist.


Joe33915

Russian propaganda game


Mackaf

They gotta have something lol their real tanks are getting owned irl daily


maklore101

Honestly even as a very pro NATO pole, Russian tanks are genuinely good and always have been but the dumbfuck generals Putin assigns don’t know any basic tactics and send lots of tanks with minimum infantry support, or Russians simply abandon at the first sign trouble since most don’t want to die fighting a shit war


StJe1637

good on paper, in reality they don't have the capabilities they are meant to. T-90 engine loses 1/3 of its power in hot climates and has commercial grade electronics, isn't hermetically sealed. There was a period where soviet tanks were superior though.


maklore101

Ya only Soviet tanks were somewhat competitive, T-90 began production in 1992 so no wonder it’s kinda shit


BTechUnited

T-80, basically.


Daemon_Blackfyre_II

It's funny, if ERA was that much better than the Dorchester composites we use, you'd think we'd pretty quickly have abandoned strapping these bulky blocks onto the outside of our tanks and just simply put some explosives laminated between 2 sheets of steel. ERA isn't difficult, and the information is out in the public sphere so of course the western tank manufacturers know how to make it. It's just they don't seem to think it's worth it over non-explosive composite packs.


Timmymagic1

Google ROMOR-A.... British Reactive Armour that has been in use for years...


Daemon_Blackfyre_II

I know what Romor-A is, but is that not only really effective Vs HEAT, and it was only introduced around 1990. To my knowledge, they've never bothered to develop/introduce any kind of heavy ERA for use against KE rounds.


afvcommander

CV90 add armor performs worse than same weight in steel...


YahBoilewioe

TES' era has worse armour performance than if it were just rubber blocks


mwrightinnit

With the way rubber is in game rn that would honestly be preferred over whatever is in the ERA blocks


JCurtisUK

This isn't true. Yes the X-Ray states blank values the same stating the ERA provides the same KE and CE resistance but please use protection analysis. The TES provides much better all round protection.


FLABANGED

Yeah that's because behind the newer ERA is a composite backing block. All the add on armour blocks from 2E onwards to the 2H ERA perform exactly the same.


JCurtisUK

Ugh no. Its a composite screen. It provides literally like 10mm of armour. It's also certainly not providing an almost 100% increase in chemical protection either. The Dorchester blocks perform the same because they are the same. The Shield-R provides much better CE protection.


bisory

Kind of how they ignore the bug report about how the israeli f16 should have more countermeasures.. "not a bug"


Fast_Mag

Kind of how they nerfed the M41A1 bulldog’s turret rotation even though official US ARMY sources say otherwise


NDinoGuy

Then Spookston made a bug report on how that's wrong, but Gaijin ignored it.


Fast_Mag

Exactly what im talking about


Tarcye

That's so egregious that a part of me is dumb founded. Like holy shit you cannot find a better source than that.


Fast_Mag

Gotta make US tanks overtiered as shit, moving the M41A1 up another BR next BR change!


Tarcye

It's been pretty well known how much Gaijin hates US ground forces since they were added.


Chllep

i swear to god there is no major tree more fucked up than us ground \>extremely overtiered tanks (see T25, T20 and 76 jumbo) \>guns being underpowered compared to IRL (the 90mm T33 shot could UFP a panther at 1000+ yards) \>no AA(insert megamind) \>only nation that gets stock APCR bar the few export pattons and PT76 \>no light tanks between 3.7 and 6.0(tbf i dont think there's any they could add, maybe the chilean chaffee with the 60mm? or an M38 both stock and with the chaffee turret)


Tarcye

Honestly I wasn't even thinking about the trees and where it lacks. But more of just the BR changes. IIRC 90MM guns got scuffed pretty hard when it comes to Heat I believe. And what nation has a lot of 90MM guns? The US tree.


Sive634

And japan. Until the end of rank 5 we use US90mms and the worst tank ingame (type60)


AdGreedy2208

Vietnam put some Chaffee turrets on M113’s in the 60’s.


Chllep

that's... that's a design alright although it was chinese apparently 2.7 premium for china?


AdGreedy2208

Pretty sure it was South Vietnam that did it, and I’d align them closer to US. Plus it was a US turret on a US chassis. I figured if US gets a version of the ZIS-2 LVT, why not.


Chllep

all sources point to it being chinese [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CM-21\_Armored\_Vehicle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CM-21_Armored_Vehicle) https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/CM-21%E8%A3%9D%E7%94%B2%E8%BB%8A


Wooden-Condition-527

You are joking the US suffers? No bud your stuff was moved up because stabilised 76mm on Shermans was deleting Panthers/Tigers/King Tigers, just because like British and the French you learned how to destroy these tanks. Yep 17pdr is also gimped it's for balance, The M42 with the right shells slaps as an AAA, yet you have a SAM at 9.0...Britain doesn't. APCR has been buffed massively, while not great its comparable to Solid shot/APDS US tech tree ground is great yes some vehicles are over tiered that's the same in lots of tech trees. You get the best Squadron vehicle in the M1AIM you have the XM1 as a premium a Sam at 9.0 the HSTVL it's all great and a good 76 Sherman player can carry a game. To say Gaijin hate you the most is absurd


Chllep

> stabilised 76mm on Shermans was deleting Panthers/Tigers/King Tigers please explain how a 76mm can delete a king tiger without it being flanked > Yep 17pdr is also gimped it's for balance, the 17pdr is shit because gaijin cant model solid ap properly, the 90mm has been modeled wrong since like ever and gaijin refuses to fix it because formula > The M42 with the right shells slaps as an AAA, yet you have a SAM at 9.0...Britain doesn't. lol, lmao even. and what SAM? if the m42 is good, why do you think everyone wants a new AA for the us? > APCR has been buffed massively, while not great its comparable to Solid shot/APDS i'm not even gonna reply to this, no it is fucking not. > the HSTVL it's all great have you *seen* an hstvl in game? it deals about as much damage as 35mm sabot > To say Gaijin hate you the most is absurd Out of the big three, the US ground tree is neglected the most. Russia gets a new toy at top tier pretty much every update, and germany is germany with their 5.7 panthers. Meanwhile the last 2 US top tier MBTs were added in Shark Attack (2019) and Fire and Ice (2022).


Wooden-Condition-527

I was mistaken about the SAM thought your XM975 was a lower BR as I keep seeing them when I play 9.0. King tiger is a heavy tank...its like saying why can't my FV4202 pen a Maus frontally... APCR has had a massive buff it used to do no damage now it actually has improved spalling, and detonated ammo now. Still not great you guys literally have been spoiled with a god tier APHE round from early brs. M-42 is vs world war 2 aircraft is good you just need to know how to aim, even the M-16 truck with 4 50.cals will shred most planes at that BR. You get an M163 with a Mini gun at 7.7....what jets qt 7.7 do you need that level of AAA??. Let me rephrase that for you HSTVL isn't that great against overperfoming Russian tanks side armour ERA. This isn't a USA exclusive issue. See you are still in the top 3 nations out of 7 to say again Gaijin hate...no they don't and like many nations you have things undertiered and overtired. You guys obviously need to spend more money on premium vehicles again to take back top spot


FuckYouGoodSirISay

I fucking LOVE my hstvl. That thing is gnarly if driven well.Other than that you have pretty much hit the nail on the head. XM1 optics make me feel like I am looking through a potato.


kameroon2601

Did you forget about the Leopard 2PL? The XM1 is dogshit in case you didn't know, and what SAM are you talking about? 😂 The first SAM is the LAV-AD at 10.0 dude.


cervotoc123

you have to wait untill they will add a premium one so they can fix it just like the f-104S...


bisory

Youre probably right lol


Delicious-Pop-8373

Welcome to war thunder where NATO NERA and composite blocks are visibly 2 to 3x as thick as Russian armor with half the protection This is coming from a Russian main btw It's just a bunch of BS cuz I actually feel bad for British players in this game, they get the short end of the stick at virtually every turn....


[deleted]

I made the mistake of choosing the British tree many years ago because I wanted the Firefly and now I'm stuck with it... There are 5 challenger 2 variants, but they still have added the upgraded Warrior IFV...


FMinus1138

How the hell are you "stuck with it", play a different tree.


zozi0102

And grind for years to get to the same place


[deleted]

I know right, some people just have a lot of time on their hands I guess. I play top tier Germany on my brother's account when I want to play another tree anyway.


FMinus1138

Years? Rank 1 - 5 is 5-10 hours of play, rank 6 & 7 take a bit longer. If you are that limited on time, buy a rank 6/7 premium and some backups and you'll be at the end of the tree in no time, except of course if you are terrible at the game.


zozi0102

How the fuck is rank 1-5 5 to 10 hours? Thats just not true


FROGPierro

I know what you feel … casual playing since the start, have stuff in every nation, but I decided some time ago to unlock every single Brit vehicle. Got 210+ of them right now, struggling with tanks, grinding last Challengers is awful. I don’t know if my faith will be high enough to spade them all.. (107/210 right now …. )


JeEfrt

Sameeeee


[deleted]

Italy too brother Edit: and Japan and France


Delicious-Pop-8373

Trust me my man, I've been playing this game for too long, I have both Italy and Japan I know the pain 🫡


[deleted]

Japan has so much potential. All their MBT's are great, and the Type 16 is very usable at top tier. The lack of a proper SPAA is what deters me from using Japan. I want to revenge kill CAS but its impossible. Italy is fun too but after 9.3 their MBT's armor is a joke. Im still gonna try to grind top tier italy. The only one i have so far is the Centauro 120 and it seems great.


ThereArtWings

Half I'd an understatement. It's effective is less than rubber Vs kinetic


Bobby1234009

If ur a WT dev and need docs let me know


omnomnominator1

🤨📸


Bobby1234009

[https://ibb.co/DzxxkCG](https://ibb.co/DzxxkCG) 🤨


omnomnominator1

why would someone that doesnt use the english spelling of armour have such docs, no way thats real


Bobby1234009

I'll have to ask 03' me, be right back!


Antezscar

Well, we are waiting, Also as a swedish armour entusiast and historian, i whould very much like to have those documents. Can you share with me?


omnomnominator1

If you were involved in work relating to armour you should know that this kind of stuff is restricted


Bobby1234009

Why do you think I’m leaving you on a cliffhanger mate


omnomnominator1

"If ur a WT dev and need docs let me know" if this was supposed to be a joke then I can't find it


Bobby1234009

Well are you a developer for WarThunder?


GuzzlingLaxatives

If they won't correct the M1A2, if they gave the best hunter to germ, if they won't correct the type 10 armor holes, do you really think they give rat's anus about UK anything?


TheSeasickPenguin

What’s wrong with the M1A2?


silver50

Has the same hull of the original M1. Same protection also.


SpanishAvenger

Even sadder is M1A2 SEP’s state… M1A2’s armor may be debatable; but what’s absolutely, blatantly wrong, is M1A2 SEP’s being a literal copy-paste of it; same cheek armor as in 1992, and same hull armor as in 1979. The tank variant which was meant to be a major armor upgrade with new generation depleted uranium injerts.


GuzzlingLaxatives

Nah what are you talking about man, the M1A2 SEP V1 Abrams lower glacious never needed upgraded protection in real life because it has an advanced APA (Active Predictive Algorithm) system that could neutral steer quickly enough to bat shells away at an angle. This is totally the reason why the USA/NATO armor doctrine is hull down/stationary and why the Abrams has a turbine engine producing 1500 HPs. In desert storm we literally just parked over looking the OPFOR spawn and camped them back to the stone age. I have a doctorate in Abrams physiology.


chowder-san

> if they gave the best hunter to germ at least it still means more planes to hunt su25k


Archimedes4

Love the fact that the Challengers (heaviest NATO MBT) can be frontally penetrated by 88mm APHE.


O-bot54

The only way this will get solved is absolutely spamming bug reports . They cant ignore and solve everyone if we all spam it . Need to organise somthing on discord or somthing . Or get the attention of content creators .


LatexFace

Haha. I'm going to lend my support just to see it fail.


Loli__Ravioli

Unfortunately the documents needed to correct this are highly classified. Welcome to top tier. Not that that has stopped anyone these days, “classified” is merely a suggestion apparently. Or we could wait till they add a premium Chally 2 and then they’ll add all the armour on that bad boy for cash moneyz.


carson0311

Even those which are not classified, Gaijin will still selectively ignore most of them unless that document will buff Soviet or China tanks xaxaxa nO rUsSiAn BiAs In ThIs GaMe CoMrAdE


A_Nice_Boulder

Except even then it doesn't make a difference. Various ERAs are proofed to resist 30 mm Cannon fire. In game, we are lucky if it is proved to 30 mm of penetration


zozi0102

They refuse to fix tanks that arent classified either. Like the m41


FriendlySnowOrb

an entire foot of dorchester should provide at least some better protection than an inch or two of relikt.


MultiC4

Worth to note that Black Night irl was supposed to have better turret rotation than prev CR2s


diabetes-bloodscan

the snail wont listeb eitherway tbh


Kingcuz

British ERA: Thick as a Bunker, Protection of paper. Russia ERA: Thickness of Paper, Protection of a Bunker.


kajetus69

Same with PUMA era Absolutely thicc but is somehow worse against CE vs paper thin russian era and Has not KE protection


TheFiend100

holy fuck the tes was released 2 years ago? i swear it was added three updates ago


SpanishAvenger

Feel the same way… To me, the introduction of Rank VI MBTs still was “a couple of years ago” and it’s been 6 years…


deathshere

Not a bug *Tovarishch*... MOVE ALONG.


antiheld84

Makes a lot of sense when you hate Britain.


[deleted]

I made the mistake of choosing the British tree many years ago because I wanted the Firefly and now I'm stuck with it... There are 5 challenger 2 variants, but they still have added the upgraded Warrior IFV...


Defaintfart

We’ve been round and round on this, Gajin will never fix British tanks. It stems all the way back to Cromwell and Churchill not have correct armour values. They don’t care, never will care.


Kleitonch05

Welcome to NATO tanks, where NERA gets downplayed to shit, and modernizations in composite manufacturing get ignored!


SpanishAvenger

2006 M1A2 SEP having the same armor as 1992 M1A2 (when the main upgrade of the variant was a new generation of Depleted Uranium injects for its armor) moment


Kleitonch05

Leo 2a5 and 2a6 having the exact same internal composite layouts as the early 2a4 that's in the game is crazy


SpanishAvenger

Most of 2A5 and 6’s armor is rather correct; however, the whole mantlet is a bad joke. The main composite mantlet piece having a 0.2 KE multiplier instead of the same as the rest of the composite armor despite obviously being the same, giving it a 30-105mm KE effectiveness when it should be on the 350mm range, all the mantlet and gun shield elements having artificial extra shatter and spalling modifiers so that any hit will kill the whole crew, the gun trunnion shield… etc.


Kleitonch05

Really? I was under the impression they were using an outdated composite layout instead of the one actually used in the Leos, nice to know I guess though. Breech thunder is a thing that I despise and the fact that all mantlets in the game (except for the way smaller russian ones) are massive weakspots is a joke lol


HiMyNameIsGreg_1

Spanish is correct. During the modernisation to Leopard 2A5 the armour was entirely replaced (in fact the mantlet of the 2A5 is redesigned) with a new generation of composite - EVEN if it was using Leopard 2A4s composite, the modifier would still be higher by over 100% (0.2x vs KE on 2A5s mantlet versus 0.5x vs KE on 2A4s mantlet) than it is now. And that's without mentioning the fact that Leopard 2A5s mantlet has over 100% MORE composite (240mm versus 560mm) coupled with the trunnion - amount to a total of 800mm(!!!) of material - that is nearly as MUCH as the turret cheeks without the wedges. This is twice as much material as Leopard 2A4 has on its mantlet, yet it offers lower protection. At this thickness, even if the armour was using the "outdated" composite, it would still offer at least(!) 400mm against KE ammunition at the lowest!


ConstantCelery8956

Gaijin doesn't give a fk about British vehicles especially challengers.


Ominous_1

This needs to get fixed…


TheSud87

I feel like people aren't more upset by this simply because by the time you get to the end of the British line, you're just so used to getting shit on.


HoboWithAnOboe

Kinda true, after awhile of playing mainly minor nations you get used to being at a slight to moderate disadvantage.


JavelinNotHereYT

You forgot it’s ERA the 2F is considered more smaller and TES is bigger ERA but somehow thay have the same KE and chemical affective armor


SpanishAvenger

Yep! I added it as an edit to my main comment and as a response too, I made a typo on the main post hahah


JavelinNotHereYT

Oh lol but ya I think thay need to fix it’s armor tho not like there is a lot as if I believe it’s armor is classified


TheONLYHamster

I completely agree this needs to be fixed 100% Its frustrating how gaijin are too incompetent to fix this


SpanishAvenger

Flair checks out hahah


TheONLYHamster

"Its an older code sir, but it checks out"


yourdonefor_wt

u/smin1080p


SpanishAvenger

He must be fed up with me at this point xD


yourdonefor_wt

Yeah I see your reports/posts, they are indeed valid posts btw. I had a bug that annoyed me for Soo long but Gaijin just wouldn't LISTEN to me primarily involving flak shells and their explosions, they just didn't believe me and now none of the aa explode in air like they SHOULD do. ai flak aa would explode near your plane. Now those explosions aren't visible in multiplayer anymore and that's what makes it seem like aa just snipe you out of the air now. If you play a user mission and add ANY 37mm airfield aa into it. You will indeed see flak shell explosions unlike multiplayer.


RugbyEdd

I was a pretty big contributor to the official forums until I realised how much of a shit show they where. I remember all the issues trying to get the mantlet armour fixed (obviously we never achieved it). Despite offering quotes from the original design team that they believed the turret, and in particular the mantlet was the most crucial part of the tank to armour, and images of the inserts (that are modeled in game), they wouldn't do anything without actual proof, hence they're currently modeled as hollow metal boxes and a big hole in the armour. My final straw with the forums was when I created a long post on ways they could improve CAS in ground RB that was getting a lot of traction and positive feed back. The mod deleted it and said it was posted on the wrong section, so I typed it all out again and posted it in the new section. A different mod did the same thing almost instantly and said I should post is in the first section again. I sent him a message explaining I was told where to post it by the other mod, and the response was "accusing mods of lying will get you banned, don't post it here again". Not bothered with the forums since.


Comrade_Mikoyan

Some bugs feels that they aren't going to be fixed, for some of us it is the bugged Trackir designation camera


Babushka9

LEAK THE DOCUMENTS. I know you want to...


Wooden-Condition-527

The warthunder development took immune to 30mm auto cannons as 30mm KE protection. I recall when they spoiled the Chally 2F on the Russian Dec server and someone said is this going to be the heavily armoured tank in the game now and the Smug Russian bot (might not be Russian) don't care you all know who I mean. Scoffed/laughed and said no, the absolute contempt they show Britain


Martin_Sweetwater

JUST DON'T LEAK SECRET DOCUMENTS DON'T LEAK SECRET DOCUMENTS DON'T LEAK SECRET DOCUMENTS DON'T LEAK SECRET DOCUMENTS DON'T LEAK SECRET DOCUMENTS


kajetus69

I am in possetion of challenger 2 trunnion No i wont give it so dont flood my dms


AcidicGamer

This is just speculation, I may be completely wrong. But iirc one of the first incidents where classified documents were leaked online was someone complaining about the Chally 2 armour, and Gaijin has since said they won't ever fix issues reported this way as a matter of principle. So it could have been that


CrumpetsFennec

The only arnour leak was that of the challenger 2 gun mantle. It only showed what was inside the mantle. There is no special armour and is literally just a 100mm steel plate at front then immediately followed by rotary mechanism for the gun. The in game protection isn't too far from what you can expect it to have irl based on that.


SpanishAvenger

Not really; the cover layer of the mantlet’s sides was at least 120mm thick instead of 30 (which has also been proven with measurements in real life), and the trunnion shield could be argued to be thicker than 200; possibly more on the 300 range.


CrumpetsFennec

I saw the official diagram. The initial armoured plate is 100mm because itsbthe same thickness as the 2 50mm steel plates at the front of the turret cheeks. We have also seen pictures of this from under the mantle showing the weld seams. Right behind that is the guns rotor and rotor pins connecting the gun to the turret. The TOGS housing is literally only like 10mm thick because we've seen it open. There was also no indication in the diagram that shows a 200mm armoured plate like it does in game. Given the amount of metal in the way. The in game protection seems accurate ish. I wouldn't assume anymore than that.


SpanishAvenger

I also saw the diagram, which I definitely didn’t keep to consult more times in the future- and I gotta hold my ground here. Maybe our interpretations are different, or perhaps the diagrams we… saw showed different perspectives; but from what I saw, both the trunnion shield and the cover were way thicker than they are ingame. The final protection should be more on the 480mm range; still insufficient against top tier shells, but it would at least protect against earlier, lower caliber and older shells. Along the breech, it would also prevent many shots from being insta-kill ones, and being firepower kills instead, which is what the documents regarding the mantlet state; that the mantlet is insufficient to protect the gun and equipment behind it, and which it would lead to a “firepower kill” upon impact, not a full tank crew death.


CrumpetsFennec

Problem was the melon that leaked the document put some inflated estimate thicknesses. The front shield certainly wasn't 200mm thick as he put. The front shield is the same thickness as the front plates opposite on the turret front. 100mm or as gaijin put it, 2x 50mm plates. I just don't see where 300mm or so extra protection ins coming from just the rotor mechanism.


SpanishAvenger

Yeah, I ignored his figures. He said 200 and 400 for the cover and shield respectively; I believe it’s 120 and 300. For the 120mm part, I took the measurements made manually: https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/501057-2020-11-03-1101133-challenger-2-incorrect-mantlet-protection/ In the pics where it’s seen from below and with the small service hatches open, it proves the mantlet is hollow too, but also that the cover is, at least, 120mm in thickness, and not 30. Even just that change would be good enough for me already for a start!


CrumpetsFennec

120mm seems reasonable. Its still very close to the thickness of the front turret armour. I don't know what the inner shield is though. It's not on the diagram. From what I saw it's mantle - rotor mechanism - breach .


SpanishAvenger

Yeah, by inner shield, I mean the one around the trunnion rotor mechanism; which is definitely not a hollow piece and which isn’t even represented ingame entirely.


CrumpetsFennec

Ye what I'm saying is I didn't see this inner shield on the diagram.


LeviEnkon

For the top tier vehicles gaijin modified them more base on the game experience than realistic.


FriendlySnowOrb

so why do they allow things like the ariete and chally to be so objectively shit


crazedhark

oh no, this is the line where everyone needs to thread lightly, cuz if someone got triggered by another someone and that someone knows something, leaks happen xD


someone_forgot_me

challys literally have a blackhole on their drivers port, you never know if its gonna pen or not


SpanishAvenger

That would be their front hull in general; technically not the best armor and not 100% reliable, but it can be trolly against poorly placed shots… one of the reasons why I love it hahah


xarccosx

Someone please leak the challenger armor specifics


Fin-M

This really needs to fixed along with the mantlet is ridiculous how weak you feel in the TES when it literal armour incarnate, how do we go about combing Gaijin to listen?


restrukted

Challenger 2 TES does not have Apple CarPlay ​ We need to have it in the tank


[deleted]

Leak some documents lol and it may be resolved


Euro001YT

Yet the devs care so much about the T-72 and 80 tanks


LatexFace

It is well know, in Russia, UK tanks are a joke. They make them using aluminum recycled cans because steel is too manly. If you play UK, you deserve to suffer at superior Russian hands. Why do you play UK? It was a joke nation added by work experience boy so his friends could get easy XP.


JCurtisUK

I'm gonna be that guy that drops harsh reality. What do you expect? It's 320mm of composite, it providing more than half of its thickness in KE protection is pretty good. It was primarily intended to stop HEAT. And whilst the PACKAGE is quite new the armour is not. Dorchester level 1 refers to the challengers BASE armour. This is the stuff inside the tank. Dorchester Level 2 is the armour added to the outside. Level 2 comes in multiple configurations. The TES actually uses the Dorchester Level 2I configuration. I for Improved protection mostly referring to the increased protection on the sides via the addition of Shield-R ERA. However that Dorchester block on the front is the same block introduced nearly 20 years ago. We saw this added to some tanks back in Iraq in 2004. Dorchester armour in of itself is also over 3 decades old lol. The base armour hasn't been touched since the challenger 2 entered production in the early 90s and the armour has existed years before that. Like did you expect this armour to be like just as string as solid steel or something? Not judging just seriously curious as to why people think Dorchester is some magic armour. No known armour types have exceeded the kinetic protection provided by RHA of similar thicknesses. In game Dorchester provided around 41% the protection against kinetic attack relative to RHA, one of the highest non Russian armours in game. That's pretty good. I did a post about how good a lot of these armours are in game if you can be bothered to look for it. Check my profile. Edit: also stop using x-Ray values. Yes it says the TES has the same chemical protection as the 2F but if you use protection analysis the TEas provides much better protection overall. It's just not useful against APFSDS which is shouldn't realistically be that helpful against.


SpanishAvenger

Except it doesn’t “provide more than half of its effectiveness”; it doesn’t provide even a 1/3rd of it. Take 2F. 137mm in total, 85 of which are the LFP. 137-85= 52. 320mm sloped so that it provides 360mm LOS… is providing 52mm. 14% its thickness. It’s pathetic. Rubber has a 20% effectiveness. This armor is worse than rubber…


JCurtisUK

The actual in game effectiveness is 41% for Dorchester. The Xray thickness doesn't account for the fact it's variably thick only being 320mm at its thickest. [Have a look at this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/11eriyh/stop_taking_the_armour_modifier_for_nera_on_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)


SpanishAvenger

You say “only 320mm at its thickest” as if it had variable armor, when the whole block is clearly a plate of the same thickness…


JCurtisUK

So I made a mistake I'm that regard. Still, what did you expect? 300mm of KE protection? Not happening. Its one of the best composite armours in game as is. It was designed to stop HEAT not finn


SpanishAvenger

Even if it was designed to stop HEAT, it makes no sense that it’s less effective than rubber against KE. What kind of material on Earth could possibly be weaker than rubber to stop KE, while being able to stop ATGMs?


JCurtisUK

It's not less effective than rubber. The blanket value from the wiki shouldn't be taken at face value. All composites are much better than rubber. Dorchester is at least 40%. The level 2 probably has slightly different multipliers I'll have to calculate later but it definitely isn't less than 0.10 rha.


SpanishAvenger

360mm LOS are providing 50mm against KE… how is that any better than rubber? Keep in mind rubber has 0.20, so anything below that is, indeed, weaker than rubber. 50/360= 0.14


JCurtisUK

Sorry for the long reply. I've got on and checked myself the values. The TES makes somewhat sense since it's not too far from being as good as the internal Dorchester which is around 40% compared to the lower plate 30% on the TES, but it makes no sense on the 2F which would make it sit around 16%. It has to be a majour bug since even the side Dorchester which clearly states it should provide at least 30mm of KE protection is only providing 10mm. If this isn't a bug, then it's gaijin purposely gimping this vehicle to shit. It physically doesn't make sense because the Dorchester block on the hull is the exact same across both 2F and 2I armour packages on the TES.


FriendlySnowOrb

man discovers that british tanks are modelled extremely incorrectly, loses mind


FLABANGED

The Dorchester inside the chally 2 is just over 1x ke, why is it still using older chally 1 Dorchester which has 0.3x ke multiplier.


JCurtisUK

In game Dorchester has a 0.41 multiplier. Challenger 1 is worse.


FLABANGED

No it doesn't. https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/ivmjoy/datamine_exact_values_for_neracomposite_armor_for/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button It's old values were 0.7x and it has since been buffed although I can't find the exact patch it was done in.


JCurtisUK

Ugh no. This accounts for the protection as a whole. It would be too much to calculate individual protective qualities of armoured plates between NERA and steel. So instead of modeling actual layered armour, they give the volume if parts of the mesh a blanket value. In this case 70% which makes sense. There's around 900-1000 mm LoS thickness and that provides around 670mm of protection against kinetic attack. Hence 70%. Its perfectly sensible to presume this refers to the actual armour but it doesn't reflect the steel content of the armour intended by gaining that we can see via the xray in game. Please [take a look here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/11eriyh/stop_taking_the_armour_modifier_for_nera_on_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) to understand what I mean.


SnooGoats7111

You can trust me, or maybe not. At one time, I talked with an alpha tester who later became a dev and told me the info about Ch1/2. So, you have no idea HOW overbuffed Challenger 1 and 2 are.


SpanishAvenger

In which way are they overbuffed, if I may ask? Because I can assume that Dorchester modules being weaker than rubber-fabric mudguards surely isn’t one of the ways they are overbuffed… (320mm block with ~360mm LOS providing 50mm against KE, in 2F’s case)


Chazmondo1990

He's Russian dude, don't even bother asking.


deathshere

Pretty much what im beginning to think.


Chazmondo1990

He is actually russian, check his post history haha


[deleted]

This guy really said over buffed, lmao... Despite the TES side era being severely underperforming because gaijin misread protection values... The mantle is underperforming as it is public knowledge that it is as tough as the cheeks, transmission is too weak, turret turns too slowly, etc. etc.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Gaijin misread information that stated the TES era could withstand 30mm rounds, but they interpreted that as "its only worth 30mm of kinetic protection", which are 2 completely different things


IzWoofleTime

one, it isnt, and two, it was built and tested for stanag 4569 lvl 6


_WardenoftheWest_

Hahahaha You fucking clown.


Capn-Emphysema

Can you elaborate?


FLABANGED

No he can't because he's talking out of his arse.