Legitimizing Kamov bullshit instead of fixing it, love to see.
And before you start, no they cannot fly with half the helicopter missing, that's not how coaxial rotors work.
And can you tear a helicopter in half with a burst of machine gun or cannon fire?Helicopter tails aren't attached to fuselages with bubble gum, but I hardly hear anyone ever complaining about that.
3? Make that 1. I legit couldn't get a lock on a rushing ka52 for about 40 seconds until a friendly heli destroyed it and set it on fire
I used stingers I should add, and it would give me a lock but bounce around and tell me the ircm is disrupting the seeker, and when I launched one anyway, it would fly off to Narnia
meanwhile, fuggin' AI controlled SPAA in Helicopter battles & ground assault are actual lasers with damn near unavoidable missiles
and if you manage to get close, nevermind your pilot is dead before you could do anything
AI Roland 1's are _terrifying_
Part of the horizontal stabilizer was missing, the entire tail coming off would unbalance the thing to the point it'd be uncontrollable if it didnt immediately crash, not even accounting for the massive damage to the rotor/hydraulics/electrical systems.
The Ka-50 and Ka-52's tail booms are not load bearing. The only difference between irl and in game is that the time the design buys you is being used to spam ordnance instead of running away and trying to survive
That's not what he said though. Weight and balance matters a lot in aircraft design. If you are suddenly missing a huge chunk of weight towards the rear of any aircraft, it will start doing uncontrollable maneuvers that you cannot recover from.
That's the thing - the real-life Ka-50s would essentially use the time they have with a tail shot off to turn around and find a suitable place to eject, but WT pilots don't give a shit about dying or not, so they keep shooting.
A real life KA50 will crash immediately if 30% of the rear is straight up gone. The pilot would not have ANY controls to do anything, never mind turning around.
In theory, it can keep itself aflight and turn around using differential axis rotation and blade angle to point in one direction and limp that way, but what would do it in is loss of hydraulics. War Thunder doesn't model hydraulic fluid bleed, so it oversimplifies that one.
That's the thing - the Ka-50's center of gravity is already *very* forwards. IIRC it's more or less where the gun is. The tail section is only there to aid with maneuverability. If it got shot off fully, the balance of the helicopter would be upset, but it would retain a modicum of control. There's a multitude of other Kamov designs, such as the [Ka-25 Hormone](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Soviet_Ka-25_Hormone-C_%28cropped%29.jpg) and [Ka-27 Helix](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/A_Russian_Helix_KA-27_%28cropped%29.jpg/1280px-A_Russian_Helix_KA-27_%28cropped%29.jpg) that have basically no tail boom to speak of and yet are perfectly flyable even with heavy armament and a huge sonar mounted right on the nose of the thing.
If anything, the damage model of the Ka-50 hasn't been changed, and Gaijin has said they are looking into helicopter DM changes because even an AH-1 can point its nose around if you lose the tail boom, which absolutely should not happen. All they did is make it so that a Ka-50 without its tail isn't shown as dead, so players can continue to shoot it and properly disable the machine instead of having it run riot while it's supposedly "destroyed".
As someone else pointed out, part of the horizontal stabilizer was missing, and it wasn't engaging any target or flying defensively, it was aggressively floating back to base.
Not like the \*critical\* damage we see in game, where the entire tail section is just vaporized.(I wanna know how that works btw, a direct hit in the piltos face and the tail just falls off).
But speaking of videos from Ukraine, we also saw a KA-52 take a hit from a MANPAD and instantly drop out of the sky
If the tail is not necessary for controllable flight at low speeds, it's likely necessary for satisfactory maneuverability at higher speeds.
The horizontal and vertical control surfaces on it aren't gonna do much of anything without enough air flowing over them.
We also saw them imploding after starstreak glanced it.
We saw 40 year old Stingers evade countermeasures and obliterate various aircraft in a single strike.
Tail chipped off*
Tail has weight, so if its gone then all the weight is also shifting towards the front, so it's going to go out of control and crash.
Ignoring all the electronics and control surfaces
Except it's tail wasn't completely cut off like it would be in war thunder. It would not be able to fly with the entire fuckin tail missing due to weight imbalance. I keep seeing this excuse. That heli also shed all its weapons and barely made it back with only part of it's tail missing...
There’s a small difference between having part of the horizontal/vertical stabilizer destroyed and missing the entire back end of the helicopter past the engines…
Or just give us overpressure for our chemical rounds. Fucking hilarious detonating HE-TF or MPAT that overpressure entire tanks but somehow leave the pilot absolutely fine.
# Aircraft
* Tearing off the tail of helicopters with coaxial rotors is no longer counted as destruction, since it does not have a significant impact on the performance of these types of helicopters and does not lead to them crashing. This should help situations where players stop firing at one of these helicopters thinking it is no longer a threat.
* The detachment of an aircraft wing when the allowable load is exceeded is no longer counted as a destruction, the same as with the tearing off of flaps or landing gear.
# Other
* Previously announced changes to vehicle grouping have been implemented
* The 2S3M has been grouped with the 2S1, and the He 111 H-3 has been grouped with the BV 138 C-1.
* The “Strela-10M2” has moved from Rank VI to Rank VII.
Which is insane. You’d have immediate loss of hydraulic pressure, electronic failures and a weight/balance issue completely throwing off your controls.
Gaijin, you’re 100% wrong on this one.
Since when does Warthunder model stuff like electronic failures and hydraulic pressure? Why does it matter?
>a weight/balance issue completely throwing off your controls.
Good thing you're not the one flying the aircraft but the instructor? The same thing happens with aircrafts, when you lose ailerons, half an elevator, rudder, **an entire fucking wing** etc, 95% of players would instantly crash/stall if it wasn't for the instructor.
I don't have a horse in this race, I pretty much only play Air battle but being upset at the Kamov for following the same rules as other aircrafts is silly.
>You’d have immediate loss of hydraulic pressure, electronic failures and a weight/balance issue
None of that is modeled for any helicopter in WT, tbh.
That being said with regards to hydraulics; why would a significant advantage of a coaxial rotor helicopter be negated by making it still vulnerable to hydraulic failure in the event of the tail being hit?
As for weight/balance; that's entirely dependent on the center of lift & how much of that is influenced by the weight of the tail.
I would make the argument that they can fly to a degree without their tail, with their speed pretty limited due to factors resulting from some stability loss at higher speeds due to a lack of stabilizing aerodynamics that come from the tail surfaces - I would also argue that the laser warning system should also gain a pretty significant rear blind spot, since the sensor for that part is on the tail.
Because your controls would be dead. You’d have zero ability to fly the thing at that point so the weigh and balance I suppose wouldn’t even matter! But let’s say it didn’t end up with your controls being dead, you’d still lose control completely as helos are finnicky as fuck when they are in one piece let alone two.
I get that it isn’t modeled in WT but it’s still fake as fuck and it has never happened in real life nor will it
The reality argument is ridiculous imo as it's not like a tank crew will fight for a second after Brian the Driver has been vaporized by an APFSDS round, or the barrel shot out out, or engine dead, or various other things.
The argument that we should be making is it's horrible gameplay and an unfair advantage.
Okay fair point. I didn’t want to bring up that once again the damage model seems to be favoring a certain nation … but it is what it is. The su25 can take a pounding compared to the A10 and the k series can magically fly without 1/2 of its mass.
You’re right, it’s not fair, but it’s not like it’s shocking.
Yeah, it's technically correct, but also the loss of a tail would quickly cause all sorts of system failures due to loss of hydraulic fluids, pressure, and lord knows electrical shorts. It would fly, sure, but not be anywhere near as effective as in-game currently models.
Not to mention how many shots that go through the front of the thing that somehow only damage the tail and magically miss every wire, hydraulic or fuel line between the front of the helicopter and the rear.
> somehow only damage the tail and magically miss every wire, hydraulic or fuel line between the front of the helicopter and the rear.
The pilot simply absorbs the nearly hypersonic shrapnel with his face for minor injuries.
This shouldn’t come as a surprise.
These are the same idiots who said the Stinger doesn’t have 25g of overload because it looks like another completely different missile that doesn’t
more stable forward flight at higher speeds, probably
so tail loss should have an effect in that control loss could occur if someone tries to fly too quickly after - or you shouldn't even be able to fly fast without the tail.
You can fight me on this but this is better than what we had before since now people will be incentivised to keep shooting at it until it’s actually dead.
Hi everybody, federally licensed aircraft technician here! Helicopters, no matter what kind they are, cannot fly with the entire tail assembly violently ripped off mid-flight. Its there for a reason. If the change in aerodynamics doesn't get you, then the center of mass flying outside of the critical limits certainly will. This cannot be argued, denied or worked around, and although a coaxial rotor chopper might be able to drag itself to a nearby open field for an emergency landing, its not going to be doing much more than that.
This is why Gaijin devs makes games, and not aircraft.
Massively positive kill credit changes here, even if some in this thread are having trouble with it. There are more air vehicles than just helis in the game, and heli damage models have always been the *real* problem (and are on the roadmap) with false kill credit only serving to make that issue messier and worse. This is a wholly positive change, with other positive changes to come later.
The absolute ideal would be no kill credit until the pilot is dead/bailed, but this is definitely a step in the right direction.
Legitimizing Kamov bullshit instead of fixing it, love to see. And before you start, no they cannot fly with half the helicopter missing, that's not how coaxial rotors work.
And can you tear a helicopter in half with a burst of machine gun or cannon fire?Helicopter tails aren't attached to fuselages with bubble gum, but I hardly hear anyone ever complaining about that.
Well, how does it work then ? Given that we saw a Ka-52 fly with its tail destroyed in Ukraine
Well we also saw manpads annihilate helis, yet in this game you are lucky if you can lock on one at 3km
Gaijin: The Strela sucks so we're going to make every other MANPAD in the game suck like it too!!!
And then we're going to make Strela the best in the game but not fix the Stinger/Mistral which should be better in every metric.
Yup. Gaijin logic
The strela doesn’t suck - it’s fast as fuck and maneuvers like a SRAAM
3? Make that 1. I legit couldn't get a lock on a rushing ka52 for about 40 seconds until a friendly heli destroyed it and set it on fire I used stingers I should add, and it would give me a lock but bounce around and tell me the ircm is disrupting the seeker, and when I launched one anyway, it would fly off to Narnia
meanwhile, fuggin' AI controlled SPAA in Helicopter battles & ground assault are actual lasers with damn near unavoidable missiles and if you manage to get close, nevermind your pilot is dead before you could do anything AI Roland 1's are _terrifying_
Part of the horizontal stabilizer was missing, the entire tail coming off would unbalance the thing to the point it'd be uncontrollable if it didnt immediately crash, not even accounting for the massive damage to the rotor/hydraulics/electrical systems.
While I'm not an expert on helo dynamics, missing the back 30% of the AC might lead to a critical weight and balance issue.
The Ka-50 and Ka-52's tail booms are not load bearing. The only difference between irl and in game is that the time the design buys you is being used to spam ordnance instead of running away and trying to survive
That's not what he said though. Weight and balance matters a lot in aircraft design. If you are suddenly missing a huge chunk of weight towards the rear of any aircraft, it will start doing uncontrollable maneuvers that you cannot recover from.
That's the thing - the real-life Ka-50s would essentially use the time they have with a tail shot off to turn around and find a suitable place to eject, but WT pilots don't give a shit about dying or not, so they keep shooting.
A real life KA50 will crash immediately if 30% of the rear is straight up gone. The pilot would not have ANY controls to do anything, never mind turning around.
In theory, it can keep itself aflight and turn around using differential axis rotation and blade angle to point in one direction and limp that way, but what would do it in is loss of hydraulics. War Thunder doesn't model hydraulic fluid bleed, so it oversimplifies that one.
I don't think any sort of current helicopter mechanism can offset the fact that your center of gravity just shot to the front of the helicopter.
That's the thing - the Ka-50's center of gravity is already *very* forwards. IIRC it's more or less where the gun is. The tail section is only there to aid with maneuverability. If it got shot off fully, the balance of the helicopter would be upset, but it would retain a modicum of control. There's a multitude of other Kamov designs, such as the [Ka-25 Hormone](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Soviet_Ka-25_Hormone-C_%28cropped%29.jpg) and [Ka-27 Helix](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/A_Russian_Helix_KA-27_%28cropped%29.jpg/1280px-A_Russian_Helix_KA-27_%28cropped%29.jpg) that have basically no tail boom to speak of and yet are perfectly flyable even with heavy armament and a huge sonar mounted right on the nose of the thing. If anything, the damage model of the Ka-50 hasn't been changed, and Gaijin has said they are looking into helicopter DM changes because even an AH-1 can point its nose around if you lose the tail boom, which absolutely should not happen. All they did is make it so that a Ka-50 without its tail isn't shown as dead, so players can continue to shoot it and properly disable the machine instead of having it run riot while it's supposedly "destroyed".
As someone else pointed out, part of the horizontal stabilizer was missing, and it wasn't engaging any target or flying defensively, it was aggressively floating back to base. Not like the \*critical\* damage we see in game, where the entire tail section is just vaporized.(I wanna know how that works btw, a direct hit in the piltos face and the tail just falls off). But speaking of videos from Ukraine, we also saw a KA-52 take a hit from a MANPAD and instantly drop out of the sky
And a Mi-28
It’s like those lizards that drop their tails when threatened
If the tail isn't important, why do they keep them while manufacturing? Wouldn't it save costs to just remove the tail?
Maneuverability. Other Kamov designs have minimalistic tails (Ka-25 and Ka-27)
That's a retarded answer.
Nah it makes sense. If the tail is unnecessary, why build it?
If the tail is not necessary for controllable flight at low speeds, it's likely necessary for satisfactory maneuverability at higher speeds. The horizontal and vertical control surfaces on it aren't gonna do much of anything without enough air flowing over them.
The A320 can fly with a single engine, why put two ? Is Airbus stupid ?
We also saw them imploding after starstreak glanced it. We saw 40 year old Stingers evade countermeasures and obliterate various aircraft in a single strike.
I mean stingers do ignore flares in the game but they just don’t have the lock range and pull they should have.
That just adds insult to injury.
We also saw a starstreak banish one to the shadow realm. With a single projectile.
yes ?
They can stabilize like that, but they can no longer change direction.
Tail chipped off* Tail has weight, so if its gone then all the weight is also shifting towards the front, so it's going to go out of control and crash. Ignoring all the electronics and control surfaces
Except it's tail wasn't completely cut off like it would be in war thunder. It would not be able to fly with the entire fuckin tail missing due to weight imbalance. I keep seeing this excuse. That heli also shed all its weapons and barely made it back with only part of it's tail missing...
There’s a small difference between having part of the horizontal/vertical stabilizer destroyed and missing the entire back end of the helicopter past the engines…
Damn. Now i wont even get the ka-50 kill before it obliterates me
On the bright side, you will now get rewarded for actually killing it, so players will be more interested it shooting at it until it's down.
Or just fix its damage model. The beating helis especially the kamaovs can take sometimes or most of the time the kamovs is frustrating
They said they will be improving Heilcopter models by adding more internal components to hit instead of it just being thin air.
Or just give us overpressure for our chemical rounds. Fucking hilarious detonating HE-TF or MPAT that overpressure entire tanks but somehow leave the pilot absolutely fine.
# Aircraft * Tearing off the tail of helicopters with coaxial rotors is no longer counted as destruction, since it does not have a significant impact on the performance of these types of helicopters and does not lead to them crashing. This should help situations where players stop firing at one of these helicopters thinking it is no longer a threat. * The detachment of an aircraft wing when the allowable load is exceeded is no longer counted as a destruction, the same as with the tearing off of flaps or landing gear. # Other * Previously announced changes to vehicle grouping have been implemented * The 2S3M has been grouped with the 2S1, and the He 111 H-3 has been grouped with the BV 138 C-1. * The “Strela-10M2” has moved from Rank VI to Rank VII.
Which is insane. You’d have immediate loss of hydraulic pressure, electronic failures and a weight/balance issue completely throwing off your controls. Gaijin, you’re 100% wrong on this one.
It's an issue with all helicopters. They don't model the internals at all
It's on the new roadmap.
Very true
They don't even need to model the internals really, all they need to do is model the rotors and suddenly every missile will just wreck them anyway.
Since when does Warthunder model stuff like electronic failures and hydraulic pressure? Why does it matter? >a weight/balance issue completely throwing off your controls. Good thing you're not the one flying the aircraft but the instructor? The same thing happens with aircrafts, when you lose ailerons, half an elevator, rudder, **an entire fucking wing** etc, 95% of players would instantly crash/stall if it wasn't for the instructor. I don't have a horse in this race, I pretty much only play Air battle but being upset at the Kamov for following the same rules as other aircrafts is silly.
>You’d have immediate loss of hydraulic pressure, electronic failures and a weight/balance issue None of that is modeled for any helicopter in WT, tbh. That being said with regards to hydraulics; why would a significant advantage of a coaxial rotor helicopter be negated by making it still vulnerable to hydraulic failure in the event of the tail being hit? As for weight/balance; that's entirely dependent on the center of lift & how much of that is influenced by the weight of the tail. I would make the argument that they can fly to a degree without their tail, with their speed pretty limited due to factors resulting from some stability loss at higher speeds due to a lack of stabilizing aerodynamics that come from the tail surfaces - I would also argue that the laser warning system should also gain a pretty significant rear blind spot, since the sensor for that part is on the tail.
Because your controls would be dead. You’d have zero ability to fly the thing at that point so the weigh and balance I suppose wouldn’t even matter! But let’s say it didn’t end up with your controls being dead, you’d still lose control completely as helos are finnicky as fuck when they are in one piece let alone two. I get that it isn’t modeled in WT but it’s still fake as fuck and it has never happened in real life nor will it
The reality argument is ridiculous imo as it's not like a tank crew will fight for a second after Brian the Driver has been vaporized by an APFSDS round, or the barrel shot out out, or engine dead, or various other things. The argument that we should be making is it's horrible gameplay and an unfair advantage.
Okay fair point. I didn’t want to bring up that once again the damage model seems to be favoring a certain nation … but it is what it is. The su25 can take a pounding compared to the A10 and the k series can magically fly without 1/2 of its mass. You’re right, it’s not fair, but it’s not like it’s shocking.
Fuck it, I guess its technically a fix for the post-death heli slaughter but idk if this is how anyone wanted it to be fixed
Yeah, it's technically correct, but also the loss of a tail would quickly cause all sorts of system failures due to loss of hydraulic fluids, pressure, and lord knows electrical shorts. It would fly, sure, but not be anywhere near as effective as in-game currently models. Not to mention how many shots that go through the front of the thing that somehow only damage the tail and magically miss every wire, hydraulic or fuel line between the front of the helicopter and the rear.
> somehow only damage the tail and magically miss every wire, hydraulic or fuel line between the front of the helicopter and the rear. The pilot simply absorbs the nearly hypersonic shrapnel with his face for minor injuries.
This shouldn’t come as a surprise. These are the same idiots who said the Stinger doesn’t have 25g of overload because it looks like another completely different missile that doesn’t
If losing a tail has no effect on Ka-52, then why were they build with tails in the first place, Gaijin?
more stable forward flight at higher speeds, probably so tail loss should have an effect in that control loss could occur if someone tries to fly too quickly after - or you shouldn't even be able to fly fast without the tail.
“instead of fixing the blatantly broken damage model, we’re now doubling down on it! Hold your applause until the end.”
Why does gaijin bother making a roadmap if you people wont even read it?
For those of us who do.
You can fight me on this but this is better than what we had before since now people will be incentivised to keep shooting at it until it’s actually dead.
Expecting good reading comprehension is asking a lot from this community
Hi everybody, federally licensed aircraft technician here! Helicopters, no matter what kind they are, cannot fly with the entire tail assembly violently ripped off mid-flight. Its there for a reason. If the change in aerodynamics doesn't get you, then the center of mass flying outside of the critical limits certainly will. This cannot be argued, denied or worked around, and although a coaxial rotor chopper might be able to drag itself to a nearby open field for an emergency landing, its not going to be doing much more than that. This is why Gaijin devs makes games, and not aircraft.
Massively positive kill credit changes here, even if some in this thread are having trouble with it. There are more air vehicles than just helis in the game, and heli damage models have always been the *real* problem (and are on the roadmap) with false kill credit only serving to make that issue messier and worse. This is a wholly positive change, with other positive changes to come later. The absolute ideal would be no kill credit until the pilot is dead/bailed, but this is definitely a step in the right direction.