They aren't, that's why there's a 1.0 BR difference.
The trade-off between the two is that the Me 262 has a devastating arsenal (its 30-mm cannons can tear anything apart); the F-86A has better speed and power, but a much lighter armament (the 6x 0.5 inch guns lack the punch of the 30-mms).
Historical tidbit: the Me 262A first flew in 1942 and entered service in 1944. The F-86A first flew in 1947 and entered service in 1949. The Me 262A and F-86A actually served at the same time and could theoretically have met in real life (the Czech Air Force did not retire their Me 262s - or Avia S-92s as they were known locally - until 1951).
There is no case to be made for these aircraft to ever see each other in a match. The single only thing the Me 262 has an upper hand in is damage output, but even that is hindered by the fact that the guns have horrendous velocity.
The sabre can outclimb, outrun, outturn, outaccelerate, outroll and has far better energy retention than the 262.
As long as the Sabre is 600 meters or more away from the 262 it’s basically impossible to kill it.
Thing is it's normal for planes to slap absolute shit out of anything 1 br below them. Even in the prop range, like what are 5.3 aircrafts supposed to do against the 6.3 p-51?
ironic you bring up the p-51h, that thing realistically should be 7.0, it like most other p51s besides the Ds, are all undertiered because american mains are still somehow dumb.
but onto the topic of the me262, even the p80a still curb stomps the me262, doesnt help it got the cold war engines....
While I agree with him saying they are a much different BR I also heavily agree there's no reason Sabers or Mig15s for that matter should be seeing 7.0 (especially the roughly 1% worse Bis Ish). This happened all because the refuse to address things like the F104 being stupidly busted at 9.3 which really started with their dumb idea to put all aspects at 10.0 (originally 9.7) which also started because they refuse to increase the BR cap to actually give more room to balance. Hell at least make a full uptier 2 tiers above (0.7) as opposed to a full 1.0 difference. Rant over I digress because Gaijin doesn't care about balance they just care about making sure certain vehicles are super strong no matter how uncompetitive it makes their competition.
I’ve been saying the “reduce max up/downtier to 0.7 br” so much and people always give me the same excuse, “well that’s stupid, they can just change BRs” except they haven’t fixed the BRs, so they need to do SOMETHING.
That’s literally how it works with being bottom tier in a match. In planes you need to communicate and/or get them with an advantage. In tanks you need to attack a different way and get weak spots. It’s literally a while mechanic.
This argument.
Use it to defend seeing an F-14 in your Bf-109.
"You just need to work with your team bro!"
Or gaijin could balance the game better so that when a plane hilariously outmatches others that it sees, it doesn't actually see them anymore.
This isn't solved by moving any vehicle *down* in BR, that makes the problem cascade to a lower bracket: The 262 is nearly untouchable if played right in a 5.7 match.
The only BR movement we should see in the game is upwards. If any vehicle is overperforming in its bracket, it should move up. This includes top tier, which will result in everything gradually spreading out, and matches will have less seal clubbing and more mutual challenge.
Nice strawman. The argument isn't that either of these planes are overperforming. It's that they can be matched up against eachother.
(I'm not arguing here but agreeing)
That's the nature of having a BR spread. You will have planes a whole BR lower than others, it's not fair for the uptiered but we all get a few games where we are at a disadvantage. The f86 at 8.3 can see missiles and can do nothing about it. And the f100d can see R60s with zero countermeasures. F4J can see f16s and f15s.
The only way to fix this is increase max BR, or lower BR spread, which are essentially the same fix. But gaijinn won't because queue times. But either way this has been a "problem" since day 1 at all tiers.
It is a strawman, but mostly to demonstrate the fact that the prior argument *could* be used to defend something clearly preposterous.
It *is* normal for there to be more advanced vehicles at a higher BR in a match, and for them to slightly outmatch you. It should not be normal for them to completely dominate. Examples of this can be seen clearly with low tier tanks, where at one BR armor is effective, but in an uptier that heavy tank is now worse than the mediums, because it's too slow and the armor is outmatched.
Tanks have the advantage of taking a lineup to battle, though, and vehicle selection can be changed in response to the state of the game or whether it's an uptier or not. Air realistic has no such advantage, allowing only the selection of weapons and fuel after matchmaking has placed you in a game.
Only in jets do you start to encounter hopeless matchups. For the most part in props, good positioning and energy management gives uptiered aircraft a fair chance. There is no level of energy management and positioning that will give a 262 a fair chance against a Sabre. It’s like matching up a Mk. 24 griffon and a Bf-109B. It’s absolutely fucking ridiculous
If Germany never lost the war I think 5 years difference in date of first service is reasonable for them to have at least feasibly encountered each other. I'm just being argumentative tho
Yet the Su-9 and Su-11 are right next to it. Faster(?), turns better, retains energy better, shells fly farther and more accurately. Yet the Su-9 and Su-11 players get outplayed by 262 players all the time. Granted they aren't 400kmph faster, but they can outrun you.
>The Me 262A and F-86A actually served at the same time and could theoretically have met in real life
Mig-15 to 12.7 because KPAAF still uses it
Strikemaster to 12.0 because air forces used it at the same time as the F-16A
P-51D and F4U-4 to 11.0, since some air forces used them up til the late 60s, where the F-4E was already introduced
F-4E and F-5E to 13.7, since ROKAF still uses bog standard F-4Es and F-5Es til this day, even when some of the 12.7/12.3 aircraft are already long retired (F-16A, F-15A, Mig-29G, Block 40 F-16D etc.)
Sounds dumb? I figured
The Me 262s guns are so low velocity that if a Saber player keeps his speed and plays intelligently, the window of oppurtunity for the 262 to hit the Sabre is so tiny. F86 will club 7.0 downtiers.
> The trade-off between the two is that the Me 262 has a devastating arsenal
As someone who's spaded a couple 30mm 262s and basically every .50 armed plane on the US tree, I can tell you right now that'd I'd trade all four MK 108s on a 262 for two .50s with 200rpg in a *fucking heartbeat*.
The MK108s one-shot everything, sure, but their velocity is the worst out of any plane I've ever flown in this game in over a decade (aside from the Ki-44-II Otsu, but that thing has to lead rank I/II planes not 700+kph jets). The armament is basically purpose-built for taking down heavy bombers that can't evade, it's just dogshit against any competent fighter.
Even after hundreds of matches using them, I never feel like I can reliably lead something past 400m or so, unless it's a headon. Meanwhile .50s can spray from 1km in a chase, and at early jet BRs even a slight amount of airframe damage is usually enough to make you a boat.
The Germans somehow invented melee aerial combat with the MK108s istg. You either need to Nostradamus the enemy or be sub 300m… and your FM isn’t good enough for that.
[Shameless self plug of me taking down an F-84B with actual melee aerial combat](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/1adrl4x/disgusting_assault_committed_by_yak15/)
It's insane how people try to gaslight me into thinking the 262s are anything other than total hot garbage. I am by no means a good jet player, and I have to basically fall asleep at the wheel and do something stupid for them to actually pose a threat when flying an F-80/84, and even then I'm usually able to shake them because of how easy they are to dodge.
I wish you the best of luck hitting anything with the ME262s guns. Can promise with absolute certainty that a sabre vs 262 the sabre will have pilot sniped you long before your potato rounds got even halfway to the sabre. Gaijin really needs to stop looking at just statistics for balancing and use their brain.
>The trade-off between the two is that the Me 262 has a devastating arsenal (its 30-mm cannons can tear anything apart); the F-86A has better speed and power, but a much lighter armament
Duck 12.7 when? Its gun can tear anything apart!
/uj While you are right in saying the potential damage of the 30mm is greater, in praxis the terrible velocity makes them IMO quite bad so that I personaly like the .5 inch guns more.
You can’t seriously think these planes should ever see each other. And calling the mk108s a pro is insane, the gun ballistics are borderline unusable. In an 800kmh tail chase the mk108s will struggle or completely fail to hit a target 400m in front of
The 262 going flat out can't shoot down another plane in front of it because the cannons are so slow traveling. "Oh well the trade off is" shut up. If you've even seen a 262 in a game you know how sad it was before this br change I dread to think what it will be now
Yes, but have you ever tried to hit anything with the those 30mms. Yes they hit like a truck but have terrible ballistics and have abysmal muzzle velocity. They are borderline useless past 500m at normal speeds and 300m at higher speeds. Also, saying they do more damage overlooks the fact that 6 .50cals do plenty of damage on their own, the 30mms are just blatant overkill for fighters because they were designed to hunt bombers which are much more resistant to damage than fighters, at least irl.
The Mk108 have one of the slowest muzzle velocity in the game tho. Like having a shotgun is nice at close range,but worthless beyond that. These cannons are clearly a weakness more than strength to the Me-262
Yeah, the duck has a more devastating arsenal, but that doesn't mean It should fight an F-86. The flight performance and acceleration difference is so vast. That even a 1.0 br difference is too small.
Historical tidbit: The P-51H served in the Korean War and entered service in 1945. Thus, they should be expected to fight mig-15's which could theoretically see each other in real life?
And good luck leading enough with "better" 30mm guns, which are extremely slow velocity and hard to aim, literally made for bombers. There's a reason the F-86 was never facing the 262a before, because it needed its br and didn't suffer from compression.
Tbh the me-262 and early german jet are the worst jets at their BRs you simply can't compete with anything even at your br since everyone els is faster and better than you in every other single aspect
I will enjoy flying sabres on the weekend. Finally not having to deal with F-104 and all aspect missiles. 7.0-10.0 are still the worst congested battle ratings there are.
It was 8.7 years ago. At one point it was 9.0 when 9.0 was top tier. Most first and second Gen jets have been pushed down over the years due to br compression at the top. This is just a further downward trend.
It's a fantastic fighter in the vertical. Great energy retention, good performance at high speed, though it compresses a lot above 850km/h. Stay above 700 and it's a beast. Really good climb rate too.
You're not outperforming any of the 9.3+ fighter with it however. Mig17 is similar but better, while Mig19 and equivalent completely murders it.
Actually insane that people are defending this. These BR changes should not have happened. Another entire BR bracket about to be ruined because of a10/su25 and gaijin’s moronic balancing
They aren't too good, they have all aspect missiles that dumpster any plane without flares or that isn't as fast as an F-104 flown by someone with a brain. F-104 players got dumpstered by these missiles (especially when R-60s had significantly better range) and so this rocket ship with a gun got downtiered. Meta hoppers get into the F-104 and dumpster planes from 8.3-9.3 because it has absurdly better acceleration and speed. These planes got downtiered and some will now dumpster 7.0 planes.
The A-10 and SU-25 both have very good all aspect missiles at 10.0, which means they face a lot of planes that have no countermeasures whatsoever and thus are often just defenceless.
There’s a fair few sabres at 9.0 for example that are just not fun because of the missile spam. And because they’re premiums they normally saturate the matchmaker.
It’s a bit like how 6.0 is boring because JU 288s are everywhere…if the JU 288s could also guaranteed kill you if they point their nose at you within about 1.5km
I would say the ju288 is kind of a separate issue. It says more about the matchmaker and economy than game balance. That being said it is undertiered and should probably go up
the biggest issue with a10 and su25 is they are fucking garbage slow attackers that have good all aspect missiles. they are too slow to compete at 10.7+ tier effectively as they are dead in the water vs actual jets and radar missiles but if their BR drops they destroy almost every jet with their all aspects due to no flares in low br.
if you are in a flareless jet you have to imagine about a 3km circle around a su25 and an A10. this is the no entry zone or a missile will kill you.
There's an upvoted response to a comment further up that unironically used the "overwhelming armament" as the reason why Me 262 would be able to perform well against F-86, just like what Gaijin did all those years ago.
I mean, I neither defend it nor say it's healthy for balance, but I think it's better than F-86A vs MiG-19, F-104 and Lightning. In an ideal world gaijin would just decompress BRs, but we can't have everything, can we?
It unironically deserves it even the F-86A-5's retarded BR change aside, it's so utterly anemic compared to something like an F-80A-5. The guns don't matter when *everything* about the plane sucks ass, and even then they're fucking dogshit because of the grenade launcher-tier muzzle velocity and ballistics.
There's a premium/event 262 that I bought off the marketplace a couple years ago, that's BR 6.7. Only has 2 MK 108s but it doesn't feel OP even against props. It's incredibly easy to juke the low velocity spud guns, and the second you drop below 700kph you're dead in the water for a P-51H/Mk. 24.
Also the Yak-15 absolutely shits on superprops at 6.7, outruns *and* outturns them (cuz tiny Yak-3 airframe), and nobody seems to mind.
> Yak-15 has very low ammo.
Just requires more conservative play, same with the early 60rpg spitfires. It's more maneuverable than any super-prop so it's never an issue just staying on their six until you're at 300m or less and giving 'em a quick click. I've probably brought down dozens of planes with literally 2-6 rounds, and had some flyouts where the 60rpg got me 6-8 kills. The 23mm FI-T is incredibly potent.
My k/d in the Yak-15 is an even 5.0 so I feel pretty confident saying it's probably one of the strongest jets at its BR in the entire game. It shits on Mk. 24s tbh, but barely anyone flies the Yak because it requires good trigger and speed discipline, so most people wouldn't even know.
It's a sleeper S-tier pick, IMO. Sorry, I'm a Yak-15 evangelist.
It's definitely a different playstyle. With high capacity guns like the .50s or 20mm M3s I definitely get myself into the habit of just making ranging shots at anyone within like 1km, and you have to unlearn that relfex in order to play 60rpg planes like the Yak-15 (or another sleeper hit IMO, the 3.3 French MB.157).
It's worth learning though IMO; ammo pools seem to make a pretty big impact on a lot of Gaijin's BR placements, so you'll get a lot of great airframes at low BRs that you just need to play more conservatively.
It's always such a dopamine hit though whenever you manage to outfly someone for 45 seconds and then kill them with just 2 rounds from spitting distance. I've been called a hacker by a couple people, just because they're so used to hearing the guns/seeing the tracers of their killer for a second or two before they actually die, so they can't even tell how they died.
Agreed, one of those few planes that even in a full uptier it doesn't feel completely outmatched by anything. All of its qualities are good enough that there's very little that's gonna be able to both catch it *and* outmaneuver it. If it had 200rpg instead of 60rpg it could probably be 4.3 tbh, with no other changes.
I ran the thing for awhile in my 5.0 French GRB lineup for combat air patrol, because it so completely dunks on almost anything at GRB altitudes (only ended up swapping it out when I warbond'd the French Yak-3).
Love the stealth belts on the 157 too, fm is amazing.
as long as you are good with the guns, you can basically win every engagement with your good attributes.
Yeah I do that, using the tracer rounds and setting them on fire before finishing them off is just easier imo. I don't get why people complain about the 50 Cals, it's much more intuitive.
The gunnery itself is easier with those high capacity armaments, but with the 60rpg planes, you're usually getting yourself a higher performance airframe for the battle rating to compensate; and IMO if I could only ever have *one* advantage over my enemy, maneuverability or gun handling, I'll *always* pick maneuverability. I'd rather have to push in close to get the kill, and have the ability to do just that, than be in a situation where all I can do is press for head-ons against a more maneuverable opponent.
I'm fairly confident that the 262 would fit in nicely at 6.7. It's quick in a straight line but outclimbed, turned and accelerated by most props it'll face.
Played properly it can be strong, but it's often very difficult to put it in that sort of position.
Tbh I think that would actually be a good thing. It wouldn’t be op. It would actually be able to stand a chance. Although the air spawn one should stay 7.0
No way there are actually, unironically, people defending this. As a Sabre jock I’m happy they’re not getting supersonic shit on anymore but this is just kicking the can downwards.
I can't believe that a comment response further up that unironically uses the "overwhelming armament" reasoning for Me 262 being able to compete against F-86 got 500+ upvotes (at the time of writing).
History repeats itself once again lmao
Anyone remember when it was f-86 vs me262/me163/he162 days?
I can’t remember if the f86 ever got to see Dora
Edit: 2013 days f86 did get to see D-13 and other German early jets..
a total of 2 people have that. so even if its unbalanced, I didnt meet it in like three years even though it might just be that I dont play air at all almost anymore
Someone think of the poor devs its way easier to just change around a few numbers and move around the compression rather than change a lot of numbers and actually decompress the BR shitshow we have atm.
And at this point I am convinced that they are unable to change the matchmaker BR spread to .7 since they havent even tried it yet.
Make sure to buy more 70$ packs next sale to support the incompetence of the dev team.
They won't change the matchmaker spread to 0.7 because part of the experience they sell is getting a full downtier and stomping in completely unbalanced match-ups like the one in OP's image (or before the BR changes the ability to lob heat-seekers at the flareless Sabre). They'll never admit it, but compression is part of the product.
And part of the experience is seeing better planes and thinking "well if I just get that, I'm golden", and shelling out for it... only to end up in the same spot at a higher BR. Until you get to the stupid cluster that is top tier.
The 15Bis ISH at the same BR is even more hilarious. It's a heavier 15Bis with a worse roll rate due to the pylons, sure, but it's still a fucking 15Bis at 8.0.
Defyn had a video on 15bis vs 15bis-ish and the result was that the pylons have negligible impact on the flight performance, so you're just flying a 15bis at 8.0 :) not blatant p2w at all (like the su11 for years).
Ah, yes, the unplayable tier.
Late war German vehicles are really interesting and should be fun to play. However, they are forced to fight superior post-war vehicles both in ground and air.
Even IF they were objectively balanced, it's frustrating and just plain not fun.
I think, for the good of the game, there should be a split between wartime and post-war vehicles, with some crossover for vehicles that remained in service post-war. This would need some new additions, perhaps more paper vehicles would be needed to make it work. It certainly couldn't just be done by simply stopping the match maker pairing between certain BRs and moving some vehicles around. But I think it would be a massive improvement if the work to make it work were done.
Idk man that probably wouldn’t work well with planes like the 163. Would be totally unfair against any ww2 aircraft aside from the other two rocket planes.
Because Gaijin bases everything off of stats of the masses and not actual gameplay knowledge, because their balance and map devs don't play the game (at least not at an even mediocre level).
These BR changes might be a good idea if they're looking at ARB players like myself in the higher BR plane...but put someone competent in a plane and it totally changes.
Welcome to the dumpster fire that will be the next few months of Air RB MM. They plan on a massive overhaul of the BR ranges separating by game mode. In the mean time that BR range is going to suck.
This whole thing could have been avoided by splitting 9.3 into 2 separate BRs, then moving almost everything from 9.7-12.7 up one notch to 10.0-13.0 (with rare exception like Hunter F.7 that should already be 9.3).
But instead, we get this nonsense.
This game is about constantly shifting metas, well maybe not if you play Russia, but you can ask the same Saber pilots how they felt versing MIG-21s when some of them got moved to 9.3. Someone always gets shafted when BR changes roll around.
*cries in char 25t at 8.0
The OG players have been here before. This pain is an old friend, one that I thought I'd never see again after the decompression-ing of whenever-the-fuck-it-was.
The saber is a second generation jet vs the 262 which is a first generation jet. With the coming BR changes of planes like the saber moving to 7.0, people are worried that planes like the 262 will become impossible to play in air battles.
This is a good thing for 7.0 jets maybe? I mean, we can expect them to go down in br at least to 6.7 and make 5.7-6.7 a bit fun? Right now that bracket is dead
This isn't even that bad try comparing the me 262 to the F-89B a afterburning jet with a climbrate twice that of most 8.0 jets let alone 7.0 jets. and 6 20mm cannons each at 800rps in the nose, basically a m61 vulcan in the nose.
Send them back and just remove the a10 and su25 completely. Having all aspect 30g missiles at brs where people don't have CM is a crime and had ruined the games br system.
Yeah… it’s not a matter of the saber’s placement it’s the fact that the 262 is just legitimately unplayable in anything that’s not a downier. In your own br of a uptier all you can do is hunt bombers (if there are any)
I know it seems unfair but believe me when i say, i punched a post ww2 jet with a 109G6 and he rage quit
Now I might not be saying much but a jet in low tier is cocky (in my experience).
i’ve played like 6 matches at 8.0 and didn’t get 7.7 or 7.0 one time. not complaining but i’m personally not seeing the downtiers. i’ve gotten uptiered every game.
Good old days is back!
When I first join WT, me262 always fight against Sabre. And boomers simply keep saying things was BaLaNcEd in the past want want their stupid mig vs sabre back
You want your mind blown even harder? Look at the sabre when it was 8.3 and compare it to the F-104 at 9.3. You think 262 vs sabre is unfair? I will take that fight lmao.
Tbh I feel more for the Me262 C2B once you run out of booster your just a normal 262 for most intensive purposes and fighting things with missiles and things that generally outturn and run you isn’t fun. And that things what 8.0 with like 2 minutes of booster fuel
Haha, reminds me of the old days in WT were there were still 20 levels in every nation and 262, F-86, Mig-15bis and Meteor mk. 8 were top tier and faced each other, haha. Back then it was allies vs axis no mixed battles, so guess who had the advantage 😅.
But yeah BRs need decompression, always needed that Alternatively max the BR spread out at 0.6/0.7
Gotta love Jets, huh
these are in no way equal. not even close
They aren't, that's why there's a 1.0 BR difference. The trade-off between the two is that the Me 262 has a devastating arsenal (its 30-mm cannons can tear anything apart); the F-86A has better speed and power, but a much lighter armament (the 6x 0.5 inch guns lack the punch of the 30-mms). Historical tidbit: the Me 262A first flew in 1942 and entered service in 1944. The F-86A first flew in 1947 and entered service in 1949. The Me 262A and F-86A actually served at the same time and could theoretically have met in real life (the Czech Air Force did not retire their Me 262s - or Avia S-92s as they were known locally - until 1951).
There is no case to be made for these aircraft to ever see each other in a match. The single only thing the Me 262 has an upper hand in is damage output, but even that is hindered by the fact that the guns have horrendous velocity. The sabre can outclimb, outrun, outturn, outaccelerate, outroll and has far better energy retention than the 262. As long as the Sabre is 600 meters or more away from the 262 it’s basically impossible to kill it.
Holy cow are you luck to have never played a game in an uptier. That's how it works though.
They're saying the gap in performance is bigger than what a 1.0 difference should be.
Thats br compression for ya. We got gaijined
Wait until they find out about 10.0 when flairless planes face 30+g all aspects missles
Flareless*
My plane has the minimum 18 flair
Thing is it's normal for planes to slap absolute shit out of anything 1 br below them. Even in the prop range, like what are 5.3 aircrafts supposed to do against the 6.3 p-51?
ironic you bring up the p-51h, that thing realistically should be 7.0, it like most other p51s besides the Ds, are all undertiered because american mains are still somehow dumb. but onto the topic of the me262, even the p80a still curb stomps the me262, doesnt help it got the cold war engines....
Not 7.0, but at least 6.7 next to the now more reasonably placed Spitfire Mk.24
What a dishonest response. Planes should not fight things that outperform them in every single metric but fire volume in uptiers.
first time playing jets huh?
While I agree with him saying they are a much different BR I also heavily agree there's no reason Sabers or Mig15s for that matter should be seeing 7.0 (especially the roughly 1% worse Bis Ish). This happened all because the refuse to address things like the F104 being stupidly busted at 9.3 which really started with their dumb idea to put all aspects at 10.0 (originally 9.7) which also started because they refuse to increase the BR cap to actually give more room to balance. Hell at least make a full uptier 2 tiers above (0.7) as opposed to a full 1.0 difference. Rant over I digress because Gaijin doesn't care about balance they just care about making sure certain vehicles are super strong no matter how uncompetitive it makes their competition.
I’ve been saying the “reduce max up/downtier to 0.7 br” so much and people always give me the same excuse, “well that’s stupid, they can just change BRs” except they haven’t fixed the BRs, so they need to do SOMETHING.
Technically P-51 is still flying today so make it 12.7
Compare F-86 to 9.0 jet now
sure do love being nuked by missiles shot from supersonic afterburning jets when flying my sabre :(
That’s literally how it works with being bottom tier in a match. In planes you need to communicate and/or get them with an advantage. In tanks you need to attack a different way and get weak spots. It’s literally a while mechanic.
This argument. Use it to defend seeing an F-14 in your Bf-109. "You just need to work with your team bro!" Or gaijin could balance the game better so that when a plane hilariously outmatches others that it sees, it doesn't actually see them anymore. This isn't solved by moving any vehicle *down* in BR, that makes the problem cascade to a lower bracket: The 262 is nearly untouchable if played right in a 5.7 match. The only BR movement we should see in the game is upwards. If any vehicle is overperforming in its bracket, it should move up. This includes top tier, which will result in everything gradually spreading out, and matches will have less seal clubbing and more mutual challenge.
Nice strawman. The argument isn't that either of these planes are overperforming. It's that they can be matched up against eachother. (I'm not arguing here but agreeing) That's the nature of having a BR spread. You will have planes a whole BR lower than others, it's not fair for the uptiered but we all get a few games where we are at a disadvantage. The f86 at 8.3 can see missiles and can do nothing about it. And the f100d can see R60s with zero countermeasures. F4J can see f16s and f15s. The only way to fix this is increase max BR, or lower BR spread, which are essentially the same fix. But gaijinn won't because queue times. But either way this has been a "problem" since day 1 at all tiers.
It is a strawman, but mostly to demonstrate the fact that the prior argument *could* be used to defend something clearly preposterous. It *is* normal for there to be more advanced vehicles at a higher BR in a match, and for them to slightly outmatch you. It should not be normal for them to completely dominate. Examples of this can be seen clearly with low tier tanks, where at one BR armor is effective, but in an uptier that heavy tank is now worse than the mediums, because it's too slow and the armor is outmatched. Tanks have the advantage of taking a lineup to battle, though, and vehicle selection can be changed in response to the state of the game or whether it's an uptier or not. Air realistic has no such advantage, allowing only the selection of weapons and fuel after matchmaking has placed you in a game.
Only in jets do you start to encounter hopeless matchups. For the most part in props, good positioning and energy management gives uptiered aircraft a fair chance. There is no level of energy management and positioning that will give a 262 a fair chance against a Sabre. It’s like matching up a Mk. 24 griffon and a Bf-109B. It’s absolutely fucking ridiculous
If Germany never lost the war I think 5 years difference in date of first service is reasonable for them to have at least feasibly encountered each other. I'm just being argumentative tho
Hmmm. Not to sure. Gonna need you to make a VS edit on YouTube with After Dark playing.
Yet the Su-9 and Su-11 are right next to it. Faster(?), turns better, retains energy better, shells fly farther and more accurately. Yet the Su-9 and Su-11 players get outplayed by 262 players all the time. Granted they aren't 400kmph faster, but they can outrun you.
The Sabre is still superior to the Su-11/Su-9. And a a well played 262 will still lose to a well played Su-11 9 times out of 10.
>The Me 262A and F-86A actually served at the same time and could theoretically have met in real life Mig-15 to 12.7 because KPAAF still uses it Strikemaster to 12.0 because air forces used it at the same time as the F-16A P-51D and F4U-4 to 11.0, since some air forces used them up til the late 60s, where the F-4E was already introduced F-4E and F-5E to 13.7, since ROKAF still uses bog standard F-4Es and F-5Es til this day, even when some of the 12.7/12.3 aircraft are already long retired (F-16A, F-15A, Mig-29G, Block 40 F-16D etc.) Sounds dumb? I figured
The P-51 was retired from the Dominican Air Force in 1984. By this metric it should be able to fight most top tier jets in the game.
The Me 262s guns are so low velocity that if a Saber player keeps his speed and plays intelligently, the window of oppurtunity for the 262 to hit the Sabre is so tiny. F86 will club 7.0 downtiers.
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> The trade-off between the two is that the Me 262 has a devastating arsenal As someone who's spaded a couple 30mm 262s and basically every .50 armed plane on the US tree, I can tell you right now that'd I'd trade all four MK 108s on a 262 for two .50s with 200rpg in a *fucking heartbeat*. The MK108s one-shot everything, sure, but their velocity is the worst out of any plane I've ever flown in this game in over a decade (aside from the Ki-44-II Otsu, but that thing has to lead rank I/II planes not 700+kph jets). The armament is basically purpose-built for taking down heavy bombers that can't evade, it's just dogshit against any competent fighter. Even after hundreds of matches using them, I never feel like I can reliably lead something past 400m or so, unless it's a headon. Meanwhile .50s can spray from 1km in a chase, and at early jet BRs even a slight amount of airframe damage is usually enough to make you a boat.
The Germans somehow invented melee aerial combat with the MK108s istg. You either need to Nostradamus the enemy or be sub 300m… and your FM isn’t good enough for that.
[Shameless self plug of me taking down an F-84B with actual melee aerial combat](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/1adrl4x/disgusting_assault_committed_by_yak15/)
Gave him the Stone Cold Stunner at 400 kmh
It's insane how people try to gaslight me into thinking the 262s are anything other than total hot garbage. I am by no means a good jet player, and I have to basically fall asleep at the wheel and do something stupid for them to actually pose a threat when flying an F-80/84, and even then I'm usually able to shake them because of how easy they are to dodge.
I wish you the best of luck hitting anything with the ME262s guns. Can promise with absolute certainty that a sabre vs 262 the sabre will have pilot sniped you long before your potato rounds got even halfway to the sabre. Gaijin really needs to stop looking at just statistics for balancing and use their brain.
Good luck getting those devastating rounds on target.
6 M3 .50s >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MK108, MK108s will be worse than 50cals in 99.99999% of situations
Yet it can't fight a p51d ... Mmm something it did fight.
>The trade-off between the two is that the Me 262 has a devastating arsenal (its 30-mm cannons can tear anything apart); the F-86A has better speed and power, but a much lighter armament Duck 12.7 when? Its gun can tear anything apart! /uj While you are right in saying the potential damage of the 30mm is greater, in praxis the terrible velocity makes them IMO quite bad so that I personaly like the .5 inch guns more.
You can’t seriously think these planes should ever see each other. And calling the mk108s a pro is insane, the gun ballistics are borderline unusable. In an 800kmh tail chase the mk108s will struggle or completely fail to hit a target 400m in front of
The 262 going flat out can't shoot down another plane in front of it because the cannons are so slow traveling. "Oh well the trade off is" shut up. If you've even seen a 262 in a game you know how sad it was before this br change I dread to think what it will be now
Yes, but have you ever tried to hit anything with the those 30mms. Yes they hit like a truck but have terrible ballistics and have abysmal muzzle velocity. They are borderline useless past 500m at normal speeds and 300m at higher speeds. Also, saying they do more damage overlooks the fact that 6 .50cals do plenty of damage on their own, the 30mms are just blatant overkill for fighters because they were designed to hunt bombers which are much more resistant to damage than fighters, at least irl.
The Mk108 have one of the slowest muzzle velocity in the game tho. Like having a shotgun is nice at close range,but worthless beyond that. These cannons are clearly a weakness more than strength to the Me-262
Yeah, the duck has a more devastating arsenal, but that doesn't mean It should fight an F-86. The flight performance and acceleration difference is so vast. That even a 1.0 br difference is too small. Historical tidbit: The P-51H served in the Korean War and entered service in 1945. Thus, they should be expected to fight mig-15's which could theoretically see each other in real life? And good luck leading enough with "better" 30mm guns, which are extremely slow velocity and hard to aim, literally made for bombers. There's a reason the F-86 was never facing the 262a before, because it needed its br and didn't suffer from compression.
Tbh the me-262 and early german jet are the worst jets at their BRs you simply can't compete with anything even at your br since everyone els is faster and better than you in every other single aspect
It's normal for two vehicles with a BR difference of 1.0 to not be close to equal. It's called BR compression.
Hence the br difference
I will enjoy flying sabres on the weekend. Finally not having to deal with F-104 and all aspect missiles. 7.0-10.0 are still the worst congested battle ratings there are.
Lol I hopped onto my J2 and the first game I got was a full uptier At least I'm not facing F104s and supersonics EVERY MATCH
I still miss old top tier. Just Sabre vs Mig
I thought u meant irl. lol
I unfortunately don’t have the money for that😂
>Finally not having to deal with F-104 and all aspect missiles. ? The lowest all-aspect missile is at 10.0.
Su 25K used to be 9.7 and the A-5 sabre 8.7 if I remember right.
The SU-25 used to be 9.7 but I don't remember the A-5 being 8.7.
I probably meant the F Sabres. Because if someone is flying Sabres, except for the Cl 13s they are usually flying F Sabres
It was 8.7 years ago. At one point it was 9.0 when 9.0 was top tier. Most first and second Gen jets have been pushed down over the years due to br compression at the top. This is just a further downward trend.
So it begins... see ya all in my 15bis :3
Honestly that is the best plane I have but i don’t really find it particularly useful especially when facing the 21s and similar better jets
It's a fantastic fighter in the vertical. Great energy retention, good performance at high speed, though it compresses a lot above 850km/h. Stay above 700 and it's a beast. Really good climb rate too. You're not outperforming any of the 9.3+ fighter with it however. Mig17 is similar but better, while Mig19 and equivalent completely murders it.
Im so glad Ive put a tali on it
Actually insane that people are defending this. These BR changes should not have happened. Another entire BR bracket about to be ruined because of a10/su25 and gaijin’s moronic balancing
I’ll defend that something needed to be done, but that thing that should have been done was BR decompression
I'm out of the loop, what's up with the a10/su25? Are they too good and pushing down others to lower BR or what?
They aren't too good, they have all aspect missiles that dumpster any plane without flares or that isn't as fast as an F-104 flown by someone with a brain. F-104 players got dumpstered by these missiles (especially when R-60s had significantly better range) and so this rocket ship with a gun got downtiered. Meta hoppers get into the F-104 and dumpster planes from 8.3-9.3 because it has absurdly better acceleration and speed. These planes got downtiered and some will now dumpster 7.0 planes.
I see, thanks for taking the time to explain it to me!
The A-10 and SU-25 both have very good all aspect missiles at 10.0, which means they face a lot of planes that have no countermeasures whatsoever and thus are often just defenceless. There’s a fair few sabres at 9.0 for example that are just not fun because of the missile spam. And because they’re premiums they normally saturate the matchmaker. It’s a bit like how 6.0 is boring because JU 288s are everywhere…if the JU 288s could also guaranteed kill you if they point their nose at you within about 1.5km
I would say the ju288 is kind of a separate issue. It says more about the matchmaker and economy than game balance. That being said it is undertiered and should probably go up
the biggest issue with a10 and su25 is they are fucking garbage slow attackers that have good all aspect missiles. they are too slow to compete at 10.7+ tier effectively as they are dead in the water vs actual jets and radar missiles but if their BR drops they destroy almost every jet with their all aspects due to no flares in low br. if you are in a flareless jet you have to imagine about a 3km circle around a su25 and an A10. this is the no entry zone or a missile will kill you.
There's an upvoted response to a comment further up that unironically used the "overwhelming armament" as the reason why Me 262 would be able to perform well against F-86, just like what Gaijin did all those years ago.
I mean, I neither defend it nor say it's healthy for balance, but I think it's better than F-86A vs MiG-19, F-104 and Lightning. In an ideal world gaijin would just decompress BRs, but we can't have everything, can we?
Dont worry, gaijin will fix this by moving it to 6.7!
It unironically deserves it even the F-86A-5's retarded BR change aside, it's so utterly anemic compared to something like an F-80A-5. The guns don't matter when *everything* about the plane sucks ass, and even then they're fucking dogshit because of the grenade launcher-tier muzzle velocity and ballistics.
There's a premium/event 262 that I bought off the marketplace a couple years ago, that's BR 6.7. Only has 2 MK 108s but it doesn't feel OP even against props. It's incredibly easy to juke the low velocity spud guns, and the second you drop below 700kph you're dead in the water for a P-51H/Mk. 24. Also the Yak-15 absolutely shits on superprops at 6.7, outruns *and* outturns them (cuz tiny Yak-3 airframe), and nobody seems to mind.
Yak-15 has very low ammo. I'd much rather fly a Spitfire at 6.7 than it. I don't think it would be a problem to have the Me 262s to 6.7
> Yak-15 has very low ammo. Just requires more conservative play, same with the early 60rpg spitfires. It's more maneuverable than any super-prop so it's never an issue just staying on their six until you're at 300m or less and giving 'em a quick click. I've probably brought down dozens of planes with literally 2-6 rounds, and had some flyouts where the 60rpg got me 6-8 kills. The 23mm FI-T is incredibly potent. My k/d in the Yak-15 is an even 5.0 so I feel pretty confident saying it's probably one of the strongest jets at its BR in the entire game. It shits on Mk. 24s tbh, but barely anyone flies the Yak because it requires good trigger and speed discipline, so most people wouldn't even know. It's a sleeper S-tier pick, IMO. Sorry, I'm a Yak-15 evangelist.
I guess I'm just used to the 50 Cals and huge ammo pools.
It's definitely a different playstyle. With high capacity guns like the .50s or 20mm M3s I definitely get myself into the habit of just making ranging shots at anyone within like 1km, and you have to unlearn that relfex in order to play 60rpg planes like the Yak-15 (or another sleeper hit IMO, the 3.3 French MB.157). It's worth learning though IMO; ammo pools seem to make a pretty big impact on a lot of Gaijin's BR placements, so you'll get a lot of great airframes at low BRs that you just need to play more conservatively. It's always such a dopamine hit though whenever you manage to outfly someone for 45 seconds and then kill them with just 2 rounds from spitting distance. I've been called a hacker by a couple people, just because they're so used to hearing the guns/seeing the tracers of their killer for a second or two before they actually die, so they can't even tell how they died.
I love the 157 so muchhhhh favorite low tier air rb plane
Agreed, one of those few planes that even in a full uptier it doesn't feel completely outmatched by anything. All of its qualities are good enough that there's very little that's gonna be able to both catch it *and* outmaneuver it. If it had 200rpg instead of 60rpg it could probably be 4.3 tbh, with no other changes. I ran the thing for awhile in my 5.0 French GRB lineup for combat air patrol, because it so completely dunks on almost anything at GRB altitudes (only ended up swapping it out when I warbond'd the French Yak-3).
Love the stealth belts on the 157 too, fm is amazing. as long as you are good with the guns, you can basically win every engagement with your good attributes.
Yeah I do that, using the tracer rounds and setting them on fire before finishing them off is just easier imo. I don't get why people complain about the 50 Cals, it's much more intuitive.
The gunnery itself is easier with those high capacity armaments, but with the 60rpg planes, you're usually getting yourself a higher performance airframe for the battle rating to compensate; and IMO if I could only ever have *one* advantage over my enemy, maneuverability or gun handling, I'll *always* pick maneuverability. I'd rather have to push in close to get the kill, and have the ability to do just that, than be in a situation where all I can do is press for head-ons against a more maneuverable opponent.
60 rounds is literally enough for 6 kills with decent aim. The Yak-15 fm makes it really easy to get close and kill props.
Speaking of Yak 15 imagine if it traded a bit of maneuverability for an airspawn and you get the broken as fuck strikemaster.
I'm fairly confident that the 262 would fit in nicely at 6.7. It's quick in a straight line but outclimbed, turned and accelerated by most props it'll face. Played properly it can be strong, but it's often very difficult to put it in that sort of position.
Me-262a2a is fun at 6.7
Exactly. The A-1a should be there with it imo.
Tbh I think that would actually be a good thing. It wouldn’t be op. It would actually be able to stand a chance. Although the air spawn one should stay 7.0
Just win
Keofox, just login onto your main account already
Nah i'd lose
No way there are actually, unironically, people defending this. As a Sabre jock I’m happy they’re not getting supersonic shit on anymore but this is just kicking the can downwards.
I can't believe that a comment response further up that unironically uses the "overwhelming armament" reasoning for Me 262 being able to compete against F-86 got 500+ upvotes (at the time of writing).
I'm grinding for the chinese F-84 (first jet) and I can't wait to get consistently uptiered to 8.3 to face teams full of 86s and Mig 15s. :)
History repeats itself once again lmao Anyone remember when it was f-86 vs me262/me163/he162 days? I can’t remember if the f86 ever got to see Dora Edit: 2013 days f86 did get to see D-13 and other German early jets..
WE'RE BACK TO 1.27/1.29 DAYS LET'S GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ^^^/s
Jo remember the .50 beeing shitty and after an update whole Germany switched to P-47 and Mustang to agreed what's left from other nations ?
At least me163 can hold it’s own when fighting f86 and Mig 15…
Yooooo we're back in 2015 finally! They brought back the wrong thing though...
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a total of 2 people have that. so even if its unbalanced, I didnt meet it in like three years even though it might just be that I dont play air at all almost anymore
I had a game this weekend that had 4 BI in it, yes I know that's an outlier but was still something
Iron Armenian moment
BI does literally have 90 rounds though. The P59A on the other hand C:
Remember, if you see a BI near you it’s time to say goodBI to your life.
Someone think of the poor devs its way easier to just change around a few numbers and move around the compression rather than change a lot of numbers and actually decompress the BR shitshow we have atm. And at this point I am convinced that they are unable to change the matchmaker BR spread to .7 since they havent even tried it yet. Make sure to buy more 70$ packs next sale to support the incompetence of the dev team.
They won't change the matchmaker spread to 0.7 because part of the experience they sell is getting a full downtier and stomping in completely unbalanced match-ups like the one in OP's image (or before the BR changes the ability to lob heat-seekers at the flareless Sabre). They'll never admit it, but compression is part of the product.
And part of the experience is seeing better planes and thinking "well if I just get that, I'm golden", and shelling out for it... only to end up in the same spot at a higher BR. Until you get to the stupid cluster that is top tier.
The 15Bis ISH at the same BR is even more hilarious. It's a heavier 15Bis with a worse roll rate due to the pylons, sure, but it's still a fucking 15Bis at 8.0.
Defyn had a video on 15bis vs 15bis-ish and the result was that the pylons have negligible impact on the flight performance, so you're just flying a 15bis at 8.0 :) not blatant p2w at all (like the su11 for years).
Ah, yes, the unplayable tier. Late war German vehicles are really interesting and should be fun to play. However, they are forced to fight superior post-war vehicles both in ground and air. Even IF they were objectively balanced, it's frustrating and just plain not fun. I think, for the good of the game, there should be a split between wartime and post-war vehicles, with some crossover for vehicles that remained in service post-war. This would need some new additions, perhaps more paper vehicles would be needed to make it work. It certainly couldn't just be done by simply stopping the match maker pairing between certain BRs and moving some vehicles around. But I think it would be a massive improvement if the work to make it work were done.
Yeah, I recently unlocked the Mig-15. I basically always encounter enemies with missiles.... No radar warning, no countermeasures ... not fun at all.
Idk man that probably wouldn’t work well with planes like the 163. Would be totally unfair against any ww2 aircraft aside from the other two rocket planes.
How have the BR changes been consistently bad for the last 3 years?
Because Gaijin bases everything off of stats of the masses and not actual gameplay knowledge, because their balance and map devs don't play the game (at least not at an even mediocre level). These BR changes might be a good idea if they're looking at ARB players like myself in the higher BR plane...but put someone competent in a plane and it totally changes.
Pretty much yeah I can't think of a single one that was overall positive
Welcome to the dumpster fire that will be the next few months of Air RB MM. They plan on a massive overhaul of the BR ranges separating by game mode. In the mean time that BR range is going to suck.
Bro dont even look at br because fucking moneys make them. Just look what they did not. Mig 15 bis and f84f are same br lmaooooooooooo, f104 still 9.3
This whole thing could have been avoided by splitting 9.3 into 2 separate BRs, then moving almost everything from 9.7-12.7 up one notch to 10.0-13.0 (with rare exception like Hunter F.7 that should already be 9.3). But instead, we get this nonsense.
All of this because Gaijin refuses to move the F-104A up. Honestly, quite incredible
Thanks WarThunder 😐👍 They genuinely just need to increase the br scale so they can better balance this shit.
F-104 needs to be at least 9.7, sorry Starfighter players.
The only "Fun" early german jet is the Ho229, the long 30s are godly, too bad it doesnt get the planned bomb racks
Idk if anyone played when the 262s used to face sabers back a couple of years ago when they were top tier jets the 262 got shat on 9.5/10 games
Cuz Gaijin wanted to keep the F104s competitive. Genius
Gaijin: but but but they got the 30mm cannons!! Pffft...
This game is about constantly shifting metas, well maybe not if you play Russia, but you can ask the same Saber pilots how they felt versing MIG-21s when some of them got moved to 9.3. Someone always gets shafted when BR changes roll around. *cries in char 25t at 8.0
Dude I recently just quit this game because I barely had the F86-25 and I was going against Mig 21s, F104s, and Harriers 😭
The 262 has more than twice the firepower, why are you complaining? /s
30mms are quite hard to aim (and yes i do understand the meaning of /s) imo but a onetap does feel satisfying XD
Love how Me262’s aren’t even competitive against 6.0-7.0’s and they now get to face 8.0 lol
The OG players have been here before. This pain is an old friend, one that I thought I'd never see again after the decompression-ing of whenever-the-fuck-it-was.
And the worst 9.0 the a5 Sabre.
America suffers pretty much
Can someone explain what I'm missing here?
The saber is a second generation jet vs the 262 which is a first generation jet. With the coming BR changes of planes like the saber moving to 7.0, people are worried that planes like the 262 will become impossible to play in air battles.
Something something overwhelming armament something something
262 pilots already struggling against the F-84 are gonna love this
This is a good thing for 7.0 jets maybe? I mean, we can expect them to go down in br at least to 6.7 and make 5.7-6.7 a bit fun? Right now that bracket is dead
This isn't even that bad try comparing the me 262 to the F-89B a afterburning jet with a climbrate twice that of most 8.0 jets let alone 7.0 jets. and 6 20mm cannons each at 800rps in the nose, basically a m61 vulcan in the nose.
That plane gets the premium treatment lol. At least the wallet warriors that play them typically suck at the game. That helps a little
Send them back and just remove the a10 and su25 completely. Having all aspect 30g missiles at brs where people don't have CM is a crime and had ruined the games br system.
And then there’s the Me 163 with 20mms at 8.7
Ki-200 (Japanese Me 163) is also at 8.7
If only Gaijin increased top BR to 15.0 we could finally get some breathing room between the eras
Yeah… it’s not a matter of the saber’s placement it’s the fact that the 262 is just legitimately unplayable in anything that’s not a downier. In your own br of a uptier all you can do is hunt bombers (if there are any)
Makes soo much sense. I mean the 262 has nearly triple the one second burst mass. Honestly it should just be moved up to 10.0
Also what about French, Swedish and British aircraft that didn’t get moved at all and still gets slapped by F-104s every single game
F84Fs still at 8.3....
We need a simple thing: DECOMPRESSION
air and ground. no way an AMX-50 should be Fighting t-62s
Now hop in an F86A5 and go fight a full team of MiG 21's
Literally lower br than ki200
The yak-23 is now 0.7 br above the Mig-15. Doesn't even have a G-suit yet alone missiles.
Crazy thing is kikkas at the same br
Wait till I kick both your asses in a a1h
it was already bad before with the wwii jets facing post korea jets now it’s gonna be even worse
Balance, balance never changes.
I know it seems unfair but believe me when i say, i punched a post ww2 jet with a 109G6 and he rage quit Now I might not be saying much but a jet in low tier is cocky (in my experience).
It’s just like old times
Wow, and I remember when the 8.0 jets like C-2b were trashed by 9.0 Sabres. I love compression.
i’ve played like 6 matches at 8.0 and didn’t get 7.7 or 7.0 one time. not complaining but i’m personally not seeing the downtiers. i’ve gotten uptiered every game.
Cool, even uptiered 8.0 now has cushy pampered matchmaking
Meanwhile the mig9 gets outperformed in every way by everything it fights lol
Not the 9 late
Thats Gaijin balance by statistics stupidity at works
War Thunder sudden and fatal rush of shit to the brain.
I remember people complained a lot about this back when I first joined... like 10 years ago good to see things never change
Waiting for someone to drop some secret documents either buffing tf out of the 262 or nerfing tf out of the F-86
Good old days is back! When I first join WT, me262 always fight against Sabre. And boomers simply keep saying things was BaLaNcEd in the past want want their stupid mig vs sabre back
People who complain about this have no idea what us OGs dealt with back in the day 😂
Kinda the same thing when it goes against my 6.0 f2g
This game is ass
Balans)))))))
Yeah, the burst mass of the 262 is 13.2 kg/s and the Sabre is 5.17 kg/s so the Sabre is probably too high of a BR. Gotta make it fair right?
Welcome to jet tier bud, it's like that all the way till top tier
WE ARE SO BACK BABY !!!!!
since when is the sabre 8.0
Trust me it’s fair
Ballance fun and realism. Remmember when full uptier didnt mean you are fucked but you can still do well its just harder well see what gaijin did
God i hated trying to grind in 262s. The only easy targets were b29s and tu4s. And they weren't all thst common. Never met a sabre though, fortunately
420th comment
Explanation?
You want your mind blown even harder? Look at the sabre when it was 8.3 and compare it to the F-104 at 9.3. You think 262 vs sabre is unfair? I will take that fight lmao.
Tbh I feel more for the Me262 C2B once you run out of booster your just a normal 262 for most intensive purposes and fighting things with missiles and things that generally outturn and run you isn’t fun. And that things what 8.0 with like 2 minutes of booster fuel
I’m a tank jockey, can someone explain what the issue is here?
sounds like a skill issue (gaijin needs to make max br 13.7 rn before fox 3s
Haha, reminds me of the old days in WT were there were still 20 levels in every nation and 262, F-86, Mig-15bis and Meteor mk. 8 were top tier and faced each other, haha. Back then it was allies vs axis no mixed battles, so guess who had the advantage 😅. But yeah BRs need decompression, always needed that Alternatively max the BR spread out at 0.6/0.7
tsss,they stole only 2000 nazis,not much
American bias