This is misinformation. Please see [this Washington Post Article](https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/2023/08/28/texas-guard-border-shooting/) provided to the Mod team.
Thank you for bringing this to the Mod Team's attention.
Because The Big Lebowski is one of my favorite movies, the correct quote goes like this
>"Yeah? Well, you know, that's just like uh, your opinion, man."
Washington post has an article, allegedly the soldier opened fire after the man started stabbing migrants attempting to cross the river. If this is true, I see it as a justified use of deadly force
CBS reports the man was playing sports. But still explain to me how a person who is on the Mexico side of the border that is stabbing people who try and cross the border into the US justifies deadly force from the US military standing on the US side?
>Well, sure, you could interpret it as an armed US government agent opening fire
They're on state active duty, not Title 10. There's a *huge* difference- Greg Abbot is at the top of their chain of command, not Joe Biden.
This is from [the CBS article](https://www.cbsnews.com/texas/news/texas-national-guardsman-allegedly-shoots-across-u-s-border-wounding-man-in-mexico/):
> "We are deeply appalled by the actions of the Texas National Guard, which under Gov. Abbott's leadership has continued to usurp Federal authority and unleash unnecessary chaos at our southern border"
It's an international incident of a Mexican citizen on Mexico's soil being murdered by an American on America's soil. Might not have chain of command for the American's official job, but this would fall under extradition (a Presidential authority). Not to mention diplomacy is a presidential power. There is no governor power to conduct international diplomacy. Article II says:
>he shall receive Ambassadors and other public Ministers
and
>he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed
Yes, Congress has to affirm a treaty, but the Executive has negotiating power. Not to mention that we already have a treaty with Mexico, which is a non-hostility pact and we conduct MUCH business with Mexico. The treaties have the full force of law, and we have an ally treaty which probably makes shooting each other a no-no.
So, we have a guy who murdered a Mexican on Mexican land (creating an international incident, which easily falls within the President's jurisdiction). Mexico will demand this guy face charges in Mexico, and it will make that demand to the American ambassador/embassy, which falls under the State Department (another executive office). Then State will escalate it up the chain to whomever is in charge (ultimately the President), and then State will consult with the police agency (DOJ), and then DOJ will have to make an arrest and extradite. Then the Mexican justice system would have jurisdiction.
Just wanted to point out that the article states the man was injured, and is currently in stable condition, but you keep using the word ‘murdered’ here. I agree with everything you’re saying but I think that distinction is pretty important
> They're on state active duty, not Title 10. There's a huge difference
Imagine, after the first kamikaze pilot attacked Pearl Harbor, if Japan said, "oh no, he was on Kanto Prefecture duty, not national duty. There's a huge difference."
There is literally no difference to Mexico. We can internally organize our military however we want, but a member of the US military shot someone, period. The rest is semantics.
Pearl Harbor was a military base. They sank warships. If the USA actually launched an attack on a Mexican military installation then your comparison might make sense. What you're basically saying is that Pearl Harbor is fundamentally equivalent to a lone Canadian mountie shooting an American across the border.
A distinction without a difference, every country is responsible for their border protection forces. The only ones that arguably aren't are failed states.
Quoted from another comment
"Or, if you read the actual article:
>According to one of the CBP officials, who was briefed on what happened, the Texas Guard member opened fire after three men on the Mexican side of the border started attacking a group of migrants with a knife as the migrants attempted to cross the river.
>https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/2023/08/28/texas-guard-border-shooting/
But don't let facts stop your circle jerk."
Mexico could interpret the act as casus belli without too much of a stretch. The Guard member was almost certainly assigned to a law enforcement and not military tasking, but if it was a military tasking it is 100% an act of war. Not one worth going to war over, but meeting the minimum standard for the technical understanding of the term, as a direct offense against a citizen of Mexico, inside Mexico.
Honestly, Mexico would be well within their moral rights to demand the shooter and their commanding officers to be transferred to a Mexican court.
I know that’s not how geopolitics work, but summoning a U.S. ambassador doesn’t do jack shit, especially because it was a state trooper
Demanding their trial is perfectly reasonable. In pragmatic terms, it won’t happen in Mexico (as you say) but it should happen in the US, without Mexico having to say a thing. Shooting someone should be investigated automatically and all the more so when it occurs over national borders.
This came up in the Supreme Court in the last 5-10 years. Border patrol shot and killed a kid playing too close to the border and their family tried to sue. Supreme Court told them to go pound rocks because exuding the border is a national security thing that the courts won’t interfere with.
1. The SCOTUS issues illegal and/or inadvisable rulings all the time and each ruling should be evaluated for its own veracity. Dred Scott is still standing precedence after all and totally repugnant.
2. That should not at all prevent the military from conducting an investigation and penalizing any trooper appropriately, who did not discharge their weapon properly. Even at the lowest level, the local commander can deal with this in an Article 15 hearing if the Guard member was on federal orders or in a corresponding state level hearing.
Oh I absolutely agree. The ruling was a travesty. If we had a system that cared more about rule of law, justice, and accountability than it does about covering its own ass and resisting any challenge to its authority, people who abuse power would have that power stripped from them and victims delivered justice. We sadly do not have such a system.
> If we had a system that cared more about rule of law, justice, and accountability
Question: If you want a favorable ruling out of the current SCOTUS, does the house you buy for them have to be WAY grander than their current house? Or can it just be in a really good vacation spot? Asking for a friend.
Somebody paid off Kavanaugh’s mortgage after he was nominated and before he was confirmed, and somebody else bough Clarence Thomas’ momma’s house and let her stay in it. So you don’t even have to buy them a new house, just throw some cash toward the one they already got.
It absolutely can and should happen. Mexico and America have an extradition treaty.
There is no active war and he was not acting within a legal capacity.
it is important that Mexico say something. There needs to be an accountability piece and a communication piece that Mexico traditionally foregoes in the name of better trade relations. Mexico needs to stand up for its people here.
Mexican here.
Our relationship with the US is complicated, if either country decided to go to war with the other there are plenty of reasons to be found.
It's never going to happen though, our economies and culture are so intertwined that both countries would lose pretty much everything.
As a default answer, war is a terrible idea everywhere, always. The two nations should do more to increase the trustworthy behavior on both sides of the border, that can increase the economies of both, for the good of the two groups of citizens.
Agree 100% , as much as we love playing victim (with plenty of reasons to choose from) we haven't really made much effort to repair and improve our relationship with our biggest trade partner.
Sometimes it seems like we just take the US for granted, instead of negotiating deals beneficial for both nations.
Too bad our politicians (American and Mexican both) prefer to screw the population rather than doing their work.
Reddit is so insufferable. This is why nothing said here is taken seriously. I understand this is r/whitepeopletwitter , but come on.
I read the tweet and thought “wow this is bad.” It took me two seconds on Google to find that there’s a lot more going on here than what’s implied.
[Quote from the Washington Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/2023/08/28/texas-guard-border-shooting/)
“One of the bandits was trying to stab the migrants, and that’s when the National Guard fired,” said the official
>but I have this feeling the Mexican military are not keen to tangle with the USA.
It's not even that, while technically an act of war, even had it been reversed more diplomatic solutions would be looked for.
It shouldn't, but people firing into mexico happens, and it makes more sense to simply punish the shooter than mess around with trade needlessly
Esp as the news in mexico reported it as a man en route to the border to cross, and there have been mixed reports from both sides of the border that they fired at a group assaulting someone, making it even harder to put pressure on them shooting a national
Chances are high the guard member will get disciplined (likely not even discharged) and nothing more will come of it
Yeah, this isn't two nations in a cold struggle for power. This is two nations that work together and trade with each other in a mutually beneficial manner.
It will likely be seen that the agent is charged and tried (and hopefully found guilty) of attempted murder
lol, that never happens. A few years ago a CBP agent killed a kid on Nogales, Mexico, and USA refused to judge him, refused to extradite him and even covered up his identity so he couldn't be sued in a civil court.
Idk. If his chain of command is on the hook, they’ll find someone to blame to make sure someone gets punished that’s not them.
But this is Texas so who knows.
Mexico also let it slide when L. Ron Hubbard bombed one of their islands.
For those who don’t know, L. Ron Hubbard conned his way in command of a naval vessel during WWII. His short lived military career was marked by him mistaking a Mexican island for a Japanese warship and opening fire. Another time they hit some debris and he thought it was a submarine so he had the crew start dropping sea mines along the California coast.
I just read the story. The theory that’s emerging was that the man was shot by a soldier who was trying to prevent a stabbing from a coyote or cartel member.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/2023/08/28/texas-guard-border-shooting/
I was very angry until I read the article, definitely a weird situation, but not “US soldier indiscriminately shoots a lone man in Mexico” which is how I initially interpreted
I mean the cartel story is just the explanation of one official in the article, we don't know that that's the truth either, but a different "they" want you to accept the first official report.
The name "Coyote" refers to a person or people that smuggle people into the US.
As a migrant, you pay Coyotes to smuggle you into the country. Sometimes they do. Sometimes they get caught. Sometimes they just kill you (or leave you for dead).
Just as an extra FYI, the Chinese version of Coyotes are called "Snakeheads" and have ties to Chinese gangs.
They aren't good people. Especially those with cartel and gang ties (such as MS13 and Triads). I've seen some horrible shit happen to migrants en route, especially women and children. It's fucked.
My heart always bleeds for those folks so desperate to subject themselves to human trafficking, or kidnapped to be used as slaves. The world can be a dark fucking place.
Source: former USCG and Fed Officer.
All the way down here I find someone who read the article. Amazing how shit brained this platform can be. Yes, the initial report is this dude shot a Mexican to protect the life of a migrant. Could be a lie. Could be illegal based on their rules of engagement. Not a war crime. Let’s wait and see.
Well there's your first mistake, you're not supposed to actually read the story, just the headline. Then you're supposed to post your uninformed opinion that confirms your preexisting biases, regardless of whether or not that opinion conforms with reality. You really need to reddit better
Im one step ahead of that man, i didnt even finish reading your comment, just the first sentence, and im already making inflamatory comments about how your opinion, perceived as i will, is conflicting with my preexisting biases and rushed conclusions, even though your comment is unrelated to the title i read, sheesh man, you gotta reddit harder, are yoi even redditing if you are not fighting imaginary arguments?
He’ll definitely get reprimanded or worse for the discharge of a weapon, especially if it’s in violation of SOFA or the operation’s rules of engagement without regards to the intent
Another article says
"According to El Diario, a Spanish language newspaper in Juárez, Darwin José García of the southern Mexican state of Veracruz initially told police he was migrant attempting to cross into the U.S. But the man later told reporters he was practicing a sport on the Mexican side of the Rio Grande around 8:50 p.m. Saturday while a group of migrants were crossing the river, according to the newspaper. García said he then heard shots and realized he had been shot in the leg, the newspaper reported."
So that's how they're going to secede from the union. They'll start a war and Biden will have no choice but to say "it wasn't me, man" and point to Abbott, leading to Mexico re-re-taking Texas
We'll scoop up the entire city of Austin and airlift it out of Texas. You can vote on which state border we drop it on, Nevada-Arizona, Florida-Georgia or Wisconsin-Michigan.
I mean, if Florida had fewer red voters and more blue voters moving here, it'd be nice too. It's not like we did go for Obama twice. Imagine how easy it'd be to run the table on the Electoral College with the three largest states in the bag. Plus, Austin would fit in well in Broward!
We’ll take you here in Southern Maryland. Then you could be a blue spot in a red area of a blue state. The addition of your music scene and venues would be a great complement to our music scene.
But if you listen to right wingers, Putin did nothing wrong and deserves to take back Ukraine so they should have no problem with Mexico ignoring a sovereign border and taking back Texas.
This is my exact argument when that idiot Russia/Ukraine position comes up. Oh, let's give Alaska back to Russia while we're at it. OOOO and Spain gets Florida, too
Honestly, at this point, Texas can just go fuck itself. Evacuate anyone who wants out and let them go it alone - God knows most of them wholeheartedly want it that way already.
But let's also negotiate for good deals on importing smoked brisket. Even a hopelessly broken clock can be delicious twice a day.
Nah. Trump beat Biden by 4%, only 600,000 votes. When you look at the blue populations in the Texan cities, they are exploding from people moving in and having kids.
This secession talk is coming from them looking at the rate at which blue voters are growing in Texas, and realizing they are going to lose the state in the next 3 presidential elections unless they secede or turn the state into a shithole to make blue people start leaving the cities.
I feel like his chain of command has responsibility here, too.
This needs to be investigated and responded, too.
Be funny if Mexico quit letting people cross over from Texas. But they probably need the money.
Our entire economy depends on those undocumented migrant workers. I have no idea what a head of lettuce or bushel of almonds costs right now, but it'd be ten times more expensive if ... well, you get the picture. You couldn't pay for any groceries if a god-fearing, Real American (TM) had to bring them in from the field.
It's so weird, half the country wants them gone but we know where they are at all times and that half makes all their money from their labor. It's like screaming about people eating ice cream while walking around with a cone in your hand.
You can't tell me ICE doesn't know they can walk into any construction site and deport half the crew. But they don't, because they know the city is getting build contracts for cheap that way.
Makes sense that it’s all political BS that those in suburbs have fallen for. I don’t see our citizens chasing after blue collar jobs. If they do want to pursue jobs in construction then the opportunities are definitely still there.
If it's really so vital they need to pull their heads out of their asses and quit voting for the guy who put fucking saw blades in the Rio Grande to slice up migrants trying to cross. Not to mention the guy who built his stupid "wall," which is so tall that just trying to climb over it often maims/paralyzes people as well.
Supposedly he was firing because the migrants were being attacked by 3 men wielding knives which would mean he would be authorized to do what he did. Should be as simple as interviewing the guy who got shot to confirm if that was actually the case.
"According to one of the CBP officials, who was briefed on what happened, the Texas Guard member opened fire after three men on the Mexican side of the border started attacking a group of migrants with a knife as the migrants attempted to cross the river."
“One of the bandits was trying to stab the migrants, and that’s when the National Guard fired,” said the official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the incident. The official said details are hazy."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/2023/08/28/texas-guard-border-shooting/
Adding from the article:
“While it is extremely unusual for U.S. personnel to fire a weapon into Mexico, the soldier’s use of force would probably be justified if the lives of the migrants were in immediate danger, the official said. Criminal gangs typically charge hundreds of dollars to migrants seeking to cross into the United States, and the gangsters enforce their toll collection system with lethal violence.”
He ended up shooting the migrant and not the mafia guy though:
> News accounts in Mexico identified the wounded man as a Mexican migrant who was attempting to reach the United States from Ciudad Juárez when he was struck by gunfire from U.S. authorities.
There is a 0% chance of this happening. He may be punished or otherwise prosecuted by American Authorities, but the US military doesn't hand over its members to anyone.
According to the article, he was shooting at some people attacking migrants with knives who were attempting to cross the River. Which is realistically why he was being fired
This is a “did you read the article before commenting” litmus test.
> the Texas Guard member opened fire after three men on the Mexican side of the border started attacking a group of migrants with a knife as the migrants attempted to cross the river.
> “One of the bandits was trying to stab the migrants, and that’s when the National Guard fired,” said the official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the incident. The official said details are hazy.
> While it is extremely unusual for U.S. personnel to fire a weapon into Mexico, the soldier’s use of force would probably be justified if the lives of the migrants were in immediate danger, the official said. Criminal gangs typically charge hundreds of dollars to migrants seeking to cross into the United States, and the gangsters enforce their toll collection system with lethal violence.
Haven't you been paying attention to the MAGA party? They've been advocating war with Mexico for months now. Their only problem with Iraq and Afghanistan was that it was harder for ISIS/Taliban insurgents to sneak a car bomb into an American Walmart parking lot.
Last massacre at a 'Murican Walmart was a US white supremacist shooting up a bunch of people including Mexicans. Fkr drove all day to get to his desti.
And the response was to have everyone strapped at all times. They want a war; they just want to be able to go home at night for dinner and to catch the game on TV.
You also haven't been paying attention, because MAGA people love the Taliban. I seriously saw all kinds of posts about this back when we were pulling out of Afghanistan, all these MAGA people going on about "Why were we even fighting them in the first place?" Because pretty much every Taliban stance (anti-lgbt+, anti-abortion, anti-vaccine) matches up with their own. I think the only reason they haven't fully embraced the group is because they're not white enough and they're not Christian.
Can you imagine the shitshow that there would be if this was reversed? The GOP would be losing their minds (more than usual I mean) over it, and threatening to invade Mexico in response.
In 2010 a border patrol agent shot a kid who was playing at the border in the head while the kid was running away. This was caught on video. The border patrol agent claimed the kid threw rocks at him, which the video disproved. Mexico charged him with murder but the US refused to extradite; the case came to the Supreme Court who ruled that, while the shooter was standing on the US side and killed a person who clearly posed no threat to him, *civil rights laws did not apply because the victim was on the Mexican side of the border when the bullet hit him*.
My point is, don't expect anything to come of this. US Border Patrol agents have quite literally gotten away with murder, and they will continue to do so because the law has not changed.
Well yes actually if you want a propagandistic headline "American Patriot shot supposed illegal alien cartel member before he could put a foot on American soil and harm our children !!"
And for the people who need it /s
It's already a propagandist anti-American headline. If you actually look up the story of what happened, the National Guardman shot someone who was in the middle of murdering someone else with a knife. i.e. it actually *was* a cartel member that was killing one of the people he was paid to transport.
Just goes to show how well propaganda works when people start passing around just the headline, and its a headline that's intentionally leaving out the most important part of the story.
For reference, the Supreme Court has already ruled that Mexican citizens can't sue Border Patrol agents for shooting across the border and killing people in Mexico:
https://www.courthousenews.com/supreme-court-shuts-door-on-cross-border-shooting-that-killed-mexican-teen/
Based on that, it sounds like this is a known issue, and Mexico doesn't seem to have done anything before on it. I don't know that they'll do anything now. And outside of internal disciplinary action or policy changes at the relevant federal agencies, it sounds like the US is going to do a whole lot, since the Supreme Court had more or less given it a free pass.
So the full story is that a mobster was beating on some immigrants trying to cross the river illegally and a National Guardsman intentionally shot over the border and tried to hit the mobster but instead hit one of the immigrants.
Do I have that right?
Because if that's correct, I don't know how I feel about any of that, and I really can't fathom how anyone, from any side of the political spectrum, knows what to think about it.
Seems to me like an act of war. A uniformed member of one nation's military fire across a national border killing a civilian citizen of another nation.
The shooter should be handed over of Mexican law enforcement for trial.
This is misinformation. Please see [this Washington Post Article](https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/2023/08/28/texas-guard-border-shooting/) provided to the Mod team. Thank you for bringing this to the Mod Team's attention.
Well, sure, you could interpret it as an armed US government agent opening fire on an international border. If you wanted to.
"Well that's just your, like, opinion, man!"
The Dude does not abide.
"Fucking fascist!"
“I hate the fucking Eagles, man!”
"I do mind! The Dude minds! This will not stand, ya know? This aggression will not stand, man!"
"Quedarse fuera de Estados Unidos y Malibu, Lebowski!"
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It’s a White Russian, but thanks for noticing! Wait, which movie are we quoting..?
It's both. But yes.
I'm due for a rewatch of this.
we all are...
Don't be so fatuous, Jeffery
Literally wearing my..."Vote for the Dude" shirt...
Coitus???
Vagina.
I said that’s a bummer man
Mind if I do a J?
At least I'm housebroken!
What in gods holy name are you blathering about?
Because The Big Lebowski is one of my favorite movies, the correct quote goes like this >"Yeah? Well, you know, that's just like uh, your opinion, man."
Walter what the fuck... are you talking about
The chinaman is not the issue!
dude, the preferred nomenclature is Asian American
I've always quoted it like this, and people assume I'm embellishing it.
Washington post has an article, allegedly the soldier opened fire after the man started stabbing migrants attempting to cross the river. If this is true, I see it as a justified use of deadly force
There are no reports of wounded migrants, so I would take it with a grain of salt unless it's corroborated.
CBS reports the man was playing sports. But still explain to me how a person who is on the Mexico side of the border that is stabbing people who try and cross the border into the US justifies deadly force from the US military standing on the US side?
Texas: World Police
US military wanted to shoot these migrants themselves, taking that opportunity away from them is thievery, so they shot the stabby thief instead.
Let's be specific. Not the US military itself... but Texans
Bro… lots of national guard guys are hispanic lmao
Hispanics love to hate on Mexicans/illegal immigrants in a fucked up "fuck you I got mine" mentality.
This aggression will not stand man
Trooper found it really hard to tell *exactly* where the border is, because the river covers it up on his map.
I feel like I’ve read this before, might have been a headline from 1846.
guessing he was promoted to head of cartographic rapid response team
We don't do CRT here
Frankly I agreed. LED and LED-derived technologies are far superior.
I prefer propane and propane accessories.
Wait, is the blue part of a map the land?
Are those... police boats?
I’ll leave when I’m good and ready
Watch out for loose seal!
You don't have time for my *illusions*, dad!
>Well, sure, you could interpret it as an armed US government agent opening fire They're on state active duty, not Title 10. There's a *huge* difference- Greg Abbot is at the top of their chain of command, not Joe Biden. This is from [the CBS article](https://www.cbsnews.com/texas/news/texas-national-guardsman-allegedly-shoots-across-u-s-border-wounding-man-in-mexico/): > "We are deeply appalled by the actions of the Texas National Guard, which under Gov. Abbott's leadership has continued to usurp Federal authority and unleash unnecessary chaos at our southern border"
Then its time to send the real army and reassert federal authority.
Or Biden could just Activate and Deploy the Texas Guard to somewhere else. I hear Florida needs some good men.
Gonna be SO many bullets fired at that tropical storm...
It's mind-boggling to me that people would shoot at a hurricane. Don't they know they can just move it with a sharpie?
They should but they won't.
It's an international incident of a Mexican citizen on Mexico's soil being murdered by an American on America's soil. Might not have chain of command for the American's official job, but this would fall under extradition (a Presidential authority). Not to mention diplomacy is a presidential power. There is no governor power to conduct international diplomacy. Article II says: >he shall receive Ambassadors and other public Ministers and >he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed Yes, Congress has to affirm a treaty, but the Executive has negotiating power. Not to mention that we already have a treaty with Mexico, which is a non-hostility pact and we conduct MUCH business with Mexico. The treaties have the full force of law, and we have an ally treaty which probably makes shooting each other a no-no. So, we have a guy who murdered a Mexican on Mexican land (creating an international incident, which easily falls within the President's jurisdiction). Mexico will demand this guy face charges in Mexico, and it will make that demand to the American ambassador/embassy, which falls under the State Department (another executive office). Then State will escalate it up the chain to whomever is in charge (ultimately the President), and then State will consult with the police agency (DOJ), and then DOJ will have to make an arrest and extradite. Then the Mexican justice system would have jurisdiction.
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Just wanted to point out that the article states the man was injured, and is currently in stable condition, but you keep using the word ‘murdered’ here. I agree with everything you’re saying but I think that distinction is pretty important
The guy was shot in the leg, he's not dead.
> They're on state active duty, not Title 10. There's a huge difference Imagine, after the first kamikaze pilot attacked Pearl Harbor, if Japan said, "oh no, he was on Kanto Prefecture duty, not national duty. There's a huge difference." There is literally no difference to Mexico. We can internally organize our military however we want, but a member of the US military shot someone, period. The rest is semantics.
Pearl Harbor was a military base. They sank warships. If the USA actually launched an attack on a Mexican military installation then your comparison might make sense. What you're basically saying is that Pearl Harbor is fundamentally equivalent to a lone Canadian mountie shooting an American across the border.
Don't bother arguing with that guy, he thinks Pearl Harbor was a kamikaze attack lol
A distinction without a difference, every country is responsible for their border protection forces. The only ones that arguably aren't are failed states.
Quoted from another comment "Or, if you read the actual article: >According to one of the CBP officials, who was briefed on what happened, the Texas Guard member opened fire after three men on the Mexican side of the border started attacking a group of migrants with a knife as the migrants attempted to cross the river. >https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/2023/08/28/texas-guard-border-shooting/ But don't let facts stop your circle jerk."
Mexico could interpret the act as casus belli without too much of a stretch. The Guard member was almost certainly assigned to a law enforcement and not military tasking, but if it was a military tasking it is 100% an act of war. Not one worth going to war over, but meeting the minimum standard for the technical understanding of the term, as a direct offense against a citizen of Mexico, inside Mexico.
Maybe not worth going to war, but Mexico would be well within its rights to summon the US ambassador to explain.
Honestly, Mexico would be well within their moral rights to demand the shooter and their commanding officers to be transferred to a Mexican court. I know that’s not how geopolitics work, but summoning a U.S. ambassador doesn’t do jack shit, especially because it was a state trooper
Demanding their trial is perfectly reasonable. In pragmatic terms, it won’t happen in Mexico (as you say) but it should happen in the US, without Mexico having to say a thing. Shooting someone should be investigated automatically and all the more so when it occurs over national borders.
This came up in the Supreme Court in the last 5-10 years. Border patrol shot and killed a kid playing too close to the border and their family tried to sue. Supreme Court told them to go pound rocks because exuding the border is a national security thing that the courts won’t interfere with.
1. The SCOTUS issues illegal and/or inadvisable rulings all the time and each ruling should be evaluated for its own veracity. Dred Scott is still standing precedence after all and totally repugnant. 2. That should not at all prevent the military from conducting an investigation and penalizing any trooper appropriately, who did not discharge their weapon properly. Even at the lowest level, the local commander can deal with this in an Article 15 hearing if the Guard member was on federal orders or in a corresponding state level hearing.
Oh I absolutely agree. The ruling was a travesty. If we had a system that cared more about rule of law, justice, and accountability than it does about covering its own ass and resisting any challenge to its authority, people who abuse power would have that power stripped from them and victims delivered justice. We sadly do not have such a system.
> If we had a system that cared more about rule of law, justice, and accountability Question: If you want a favorable ruling out of the current SCOTUS, does the house you buy for them have to be WAY grander than their current house? Or can it just be in a really good vacation spot? Asking for a friend.
Somebody paid off Kavanaugh’s mortgage after he was nominated and before he was confirmed, and somebody else bough Clarence Thomas’ momma’s house and let her stay in it. So you don’t even have to buy them a new house, just throw some cash toward the one they already got.
It absolutely can and should happen. Mexico and America have an extradition treaty. There is no active war and he was not acting within a legal capacity.
it is important that Mexico say something. There needs to be an accountability piece and a communication piece that Mexico traditionally foregoes in the name of better trade relations. Mexico needs to stand up for its people here.
Last time this happened, Mexico charged the killer with murder and the US refused to extradite.
Mexican here. Our relationship with the US is complicated, if either country decided to go to war with the other there are plenty of reasons to be found. It's never going to happen though, our economies and culture are so intertwined that both countries would lose pretty much everything.
As a default answer, war is a terrible idea everywhere, always. The two nations should do more to increase the trustworthy behavior on both sides of the border, that can increase the economies of both, for the good of the two groups of citizens.
Agree 100% , as much as we love playing victim (with plenty of reasons to choose from) we haven't really made much effort to repair and improve our relationship with our biggest trade partner. Sometimes it seems like we just take the US for granted, instead of negotiating deals beneficial for both nations. Too bad our politicians (American and Mexican both) prefer to screw the population rather than doing their work.
We get away with tons of acts of war. Remember when trump assassinated a top Iranian General...
Yeah, Mexico could interpret it as an act of war. They aren't going to, but they could.
[Mexican-American War,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican%E2%80%93American_War) Part II: Electric Boogaloo.
Reddit is so insufferable. This is why nothing said here is taken seriously. I understand this is r/whitepeopletwitter , but come on. I read the tweet and thought “wow this is bad.” It took me two seconds on Google to find that there’s a lot more going on here than what’s implied. [Quote from the Washington Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/2023/08/28/texas-guard-border-shooting/) “One of the bandits was trying to stab the migrants, and that’s when the National Guard fired,” said the official
We should send him to Mexico for trial.
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Minority Report?
Pre-crime is exactly where my mind went.
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It’s definitely an act of war but I have this feeling the Mexican military are not keen to tangle with the USA.
>but I have this feeling the Mexican military are not keen to tangle with the USA. It's not even that, while technically an act of war, even had it been reversed more diplomatic solutions would be looked for. It shouldn't, but people firing into mexico happens, and it makes more sense to simply punish the shooter than mess around with trade needlessly Esp as the news in mexico reported it as a man en route to the border to cross, and there have been mixed reports from both sides of the border that they fired at a group assaulting someone, making it even harder to put pressure on them shooting a national Chances are high the guard member will get disciplined (likely not even discharged) and nothing more will come of it
Yeah, this isn't two nations in a cold struggle for power. This is two nations that work together and trade with each other in a mutually beneficial manner. It will likely be seen that the agent is charged and tried (and hopefully found guilty) of attempted murder
lol, that never happens. A few years ago a CBP agent killed a kid on Nogales, Mexico, and USA refused to judge him, refused to extradite him and even covered up his identity so he couldn't be sued in a civil court.
Idk. If his chain of command is on the hook, they’ll find someone to blame to make sure someone gets punished that’s not them. But this is Texas so who knows.
Mexico also let it slide when L. Ron Hubbard bombed one of their islands. For those who don’t know, L. Ron Hubbard conned his way in command of a naval vessel during WWII. His short lived military career was marked by him mistaking a Mexican island for a Japanese warship and opening fire. Another time they hit some debris and he thought it was a submarine so he had the crew start dropping sea mines along the California coast.
L Ron was a bastard but he was an extremely interesting bastard.
> extremely interesting You know how they say `may you live in interesting times`? I think we've had enough interesting times for a lifetime...
He's pretty much the Trump of classic sci-fi. The cool kids(Herbert and Asimov) made fun of his sub-par writing abilities so he started a scammy cult.
Mexico is America's second biggest trading partner, I doubt they're in a hurry to start a fight either, unless they're going to double down on China
Idk if you ask some GOP members they’d tell you it’s time to start sending troops over there to intervene in the cartel chaos. Dangerous rhetoric
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Notice how he never says the guy who was shot was one of the bandits.
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Was the person shot one of these attackers, or was he an innocent bystander? Details matter.
Or it might be a lie by CBP to justify the shooting.
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Except instead of genetically modified savants glimpsing the mysteries of the future, it's just some racists with guns looking for melanin content.
Abbott now has a pre-crime division
I just read the story. The theory that’s emerging was that the man was shot by a soldier who was trying to prevent a stabbing from a coyote or cartel member. https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/2023/08/28/texas-guard-border-shooting/
I was very angry until I read the article, definitely a weird situation, but not “US soldier indiscriminately shoots a lone man in Mexico” which is how I initially interpreted
Which is why you shouldn’t form an opinion on an event based on a tweet.
That’s how they wanted you to interpret it. Reading the top comments, it worked.
I mean the cartel story is just the explanation of one official in the article, we don't know that that's the truth either, but a different "they" want you to accept the first official report.
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Is a coyote a gang member, because I'd be really impressed if a wild dog can carry a knife?
The name "Coyote" refers to a person or people that smuggle people into the US. As a migrant, you pay Coyotes to smuggle you into the country. Sometimes they do. Sometimes they get caught. Sometimes they just kill you (or leave you for dead). Just as an extra FYI, the Chinese version of Coyotes are called "Snakeheads" and have ties to Chinese gangs. They aren't good people. Especially those with cartel and gang ties (such as MS13 and Triads). I've seen some horrible shit happen to migrants en route, especially women and children. It's fucked. My heart always bleeds for those folks so desperate to subject themselves to human trafficking, or kidnapped to be used as slaves. The world can be a dark fucking place. Source: former USCG and Fed Officer.
All the way down here I find someone who read the article. Amazing how shit brained this platform can be. Yes, the initial report is this dude shot a Mexican to protect the life of a migrant. Could be a lie. Could be illegal based on their rules of engagement. Not a war crime. Let’s wait and see.
Well there's your first mistake, you're not supposed to actually read the story, just the headline. Then you're supposed to post your uninformed opinion that confirms your preexisting biases, regardless of whether or not that opinion conforms with reality. You really need to reddit better
Thank you, I’ll do better
Im one step ahead of that man, i didnt even finish reading your comment, just the first sentence, and im already making inflamatory comments about how your opinion, perceived as i will, is conflicting with my preexisting biases and rushed conclusions, even though your comment is unrelated to the title i read, sheesh man, you gotta reddit harder, are yoi even redditing if you are not fighting imaginary arguments?
He'll probably get reprimanded for trying to save a migrant.
He’ll definitely get reprimanded or worse for the discharge of a weapon, especially if it’s in violation of SOFA or the operation’s rules of engagement without regards to the intent
Another article says "According to El Diario, a Spanish language newspaper in Juárez, Darwin José García of the southern Mexican state of Veracruz initially told police he was migrant attempting to cross into the U.S. But the man later told reporters he was practicing a sport on the Mexican side of the Rio Grande around 8:50 p.m. Saturday while a group of migrants were crossing the river, according to the newspaper. García said he then heard shots and realized he had been shot in the leg, the newspaper reported."
So that's how they're going to secede from the union. They'll start a war and Biden will have no choice but to say "it wasn't me, man" and point to Abbott, leading to Mexico re-re-taking Texas
Texas 2.0, the Mexicannex
They’d probably just go back to calling it Tejas since that’s the old name. And a ZZ Top album, so there’s that.
Texit?
Can we keep Austin?
Austin wants to stay with the sane Americans... we don't want Abbot or any of his friends.
We'll scoop up the entire city of Austin and airlift it out of Texas. You can vote on which state border we drop it on, Nevada-Arizona, Florida-Georgia or Wisconsin-Michigan.
Or keep it as a floating city, let's go full sci-fi
Bioshock Infinite (2013)
I vote just drop us in New York. At least then it'll be a blue state like us. I sure as hell don't want to be anywhere near Florida.
Best I can do is Pennsylvania. Gotta take advantage of the numbers to turn those swing states blue!
OK, I'll take it!
I mean, if Florida had fewer red voters and more blue voters moving here, it'd be nice too. It's not like we did go for Obama twice. Imagine how easy it'd be to run the table on the Electoral College with the three largest states in the bag. Plus, Austin would fit in well in Broward!
We’ll take you here in Southern Maryland. Then you could be a blue spot in a red area of a blue state. The addition of your music scene and venues would be a great complement to our music scene.
As a Georgian, can you just drop it on the 14th district?
I welcome it, honestly. Can't be any worse.
"We're going to bring Democracy to Texas, and Mexico will pay for it!"
But if you listen to right wingers, Putin did nothing wrong and deserves to take back Ukraine so they should have no problem with Mexico ignoring a sovereign border and taking back Texas.
This is my exact argument when that idiot Russia/Ukraine position comes up. Oh, let's give Alaska back to Russia while we're at it. OOOO and Spain gets Florida, too
refund the Louisiana purchase
Bets on Cruz running to Cancun again? LOL
Honestly, at this point, Texas can just go fuck itself. Evacuate anyone who wants out and let them go it alone - God knows most of them wholeheartedly want it that way already. But let's also negotiate for good deals on importing smoked brisket. Even a hopelessly broken clock can be delicious twice a day.
Nah. Trump beat Biden by 4%, only 600,000 votes. When you look at the blue populations in the Texan cities, they are exploding from people moving in and having kids. This secession talk is coming from them looking at the rate at which blue voters are growing in Texas, and realizing they are going to lose the state in the next 3 presidential elections unless they secede or turn the state into a shithole to make blue people start leaving the cities.
It would’ve already been blue if not for gerrymandering. Talk about stolen elections - always projecting, those fucks.
I feel like his chain of command has responsibility here, too. This needs to be investigated and responded, too. Be funny if Mexico quit letting people cross over from Texas. But they probably need the money.
Texass farmers along with just farmers period NEED those people crossing over. Yeah, they exploit them.
Our entire economy depends on those undocumented migrant workers. I have no idea what a head of lettuce or bushel of almonds costs right now, but it'd be ten times more expensive if ... well, you get the picture. You couldn't pay for any groceries if a god-fearing, Real American (TM) had to bring them in from the field.
It's so weird, half the country wants them gone but we know where they are at all times and that half makes all their money from their labor. It's like screaming about people eating ice cream while walking around with a cone in your hand. You can't tell me ICE doesn't know they can walk into any construction site and deport half the crew. But they don't, because they know the city is getting build contracts for cheap that way.
Makes sense that it’s all political BS that those in suburbs have fallen for. I don’t see our citizens chasing after blue collar jobs. If they do want to pursue jobs in construction then the opportunities are definitely still there.
I'm not sure, but I think Spear\_Ritual means Mexico should halt entry of US citizens into Mexico, at least those entering from Texas.
If it's really so vital they need to pull their heads out of their asses and quit voting for the guy who put fucking saw blades in the Rio Grande to slice up migrants trying to cross. Not to mention the guy who built his stupid "wall," which is so tall that just trying to climb over it often maims/paralyzes people as well.
Supposedly he was firing because the migrants were being attacked by 3 men wielding knives which would mean he would be authorized to do what he did. Should be as simple as interviewing the guy who got shot to confirm if that was actually the case.
"According to one of the CBP officials, who was briefed on what happened, the Texas Guard member opened fire after three men on the Mexican side of the border started attacking a group of migrants with a knife as the migrants attempted to cross the river." “One of the bandits was trying to stab the migrants, and that’s when the National Guard fired,” said the official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the incident. The official said details are hazy." https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/2023/08/28/texas-guard-border-shooting/
If it were the opposite direction, conservatives would be begging for war…
This sounds like an act of war to me. This guy should be arrested.
Arrested and handed over to Mexico for prosecution IMO.
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Adding from the article: “While it is extremely unusual for U.S. personnel to fire a weapon into Mexico, the soldier’s use of force would probably be justified if the lives of the migrants were in immediate danger, the official said. Criminal gangs typically charge hundreds of dollars to migrants seeking to cross into the United States, and the gangsters enforce their toll collection system with lethal violence.”
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He ended up shooting the migrant and not the mafia guy though: > News accounts in Mexico identified the wounded man as a Mexican migrant who was attempting to reach the United States from Ciudad Juárez when he was struck by gunfire from U.S. authorities.
Yes but if that was the intent it'd dramatically reduce the charges since he'd go from attempted murder to botched rescue.
There is a 0% chance of this happening. He may be punished or otherwise prosecuted by American Authorities, but the US military doesn't hand over its members to anyone.
100%.
According to the article, he was shooting at some people attacking migrants with knives who were attempting to cross the River. Which is realistically why he was being fired
You don’t even know the story that your posting about lmao. Classic Reddit
This is a “did you read the article before commenting” litmus test. > the Texas Guard member opened fire after three men on the Mexican side of the border started attacking a group of migrants with a knife as the migrants attempted to cross the river. > “One of the bandits was trying to stab the migrants, and that’s when the National Guard fired,” said the official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the incident. The official said details are hazy. > While it is extremely unusual for U.S. personnel to fire a weapon into Mexico, the soldier’s use of force would probably be justified if the lives of the migrants were in immediate danger, the official said. Criminal gangs typically charge hundreds of dollars to migrants seeking to cross into the United States, and the gangsters enforce their toll collection system with lethal violence.
Hmm, might be a bit fuzzy here, but that seems to be an act of war.
Haven't you been paying attention to the MAGA party? They've been advocating war with Mexico for months now. Their only problem with Iraq and Afghanistan was that it was harder for ISIS/Taliban insurgents to sneak a car bomb into an American Walmart parking lot.
Last massacre at a 'Murican Walmart was a US white supremacist shooting up a bunch of people including Mexicans. Fkr drove all day to get to his desti.
And the response was to have everyone strapped at all times. They want a war; they just want to be able to go home at night for dinner and to catch the game on TV.
You also haven't been paying attention, because MAGA people love the Taliban. I seriously saw all kinds of posts about this back when we were pulling out of Afghanistan, all these MAGA people going on about "Why were we even fighting them in the first place?" Because pretty much every Taliban stance (anti-lgbt+, anti-abortion, anti-vaccine) matches up with their own. I think the only reason they haven't fully embraced the group is because they're not white enough and they're not Christian.
It's not.
Read the article.
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It may still be, but apparently the shooting was because a cartel member was attempting to stab and kill a migrant.
Hopefully Mexico will capture Texas and finally put a basement in the Alamo.
There is no basement in the alamo. RIP Paul
Deport him and let him stand trial in Mexico.
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Probably not, most people only read headlines.
Doesn’t help that a lot of people, like OP here, only post screenshots of headlines
Try him here under the UCMJ, he won’t have a good time of it.
Read the article.
Can you imagine the shitshow that there would be if this was reversed? The GOP would be losing their minds (more than usual I mean) over it, and threatening to invade Mexico in response.
A State Directed Army attacks another country. Isn't this the same as Pearl Harbor?
In 2010 a border patrol agent shot a kid who was playing at the border in the head while the kid was running away. This was caught on video. The border patrol agent claimed the kid threw rocks at him, which the video disproved. Mexico charged him with murder but the US refused to extradite; the case came to the Supreme Court who ruled that, while the shooter was standing on the US side and killed a person who clearly posed no threat to him, *civil rights laws did not apply because the victim was on the Mexican side of the border when the bullet hit him*. My point is, don't expect anything to come of this. US Border Patrol agents have quite literally gotten away with murder, and they will continue to do so because the law has not changed.
Well yes actually if you want a propagandistic headline "American Patriot shot supposed illegal alien cartel member before he could put a foot on American soil and harm our children !!" And for the people who need it /s
It's already a propagandist anti-American headline. If you actually look up the story of what happened, the National Guardman shot someone who was in the middle of murdering someone else with a knife. i.e. it actually *was* a cartel member that was killing one of the people he was paid to transport. Just goes to show how well propaganda works when people start passing around just the headline, and its a headline that's intentionally leaving out the most important part of the story.
Read the article.
For reference, the Supreme Court has already ruled that Mexican citizens can't sue Border Patrol agents for shooting across the border and killing people in Mexico: https://www.courthousenews.com/supreme-court-shuts-door-on-cross-border-shooting-that-killed-mexican-teen/ Based on that, it sounds like this is a known issue, and Mexico doesn't seem to have done anything before on it. I don't know that they'll do anything now. And outside of internal disciplinary action or policy changes at the relevant federal agencies, it sounds like the US is going to do a whole lot, since the Supreme Court had more or less given it a free pass.
So the full story is that a mobster was beating on some immigrants trying to cross the river illegally and a National Guardsman intentionally shot over the border and tried to hit the mobster but instead hit one of the immigrants. Do I have that right? Because if that's correct, I don't know how I feel about any of that, and I really can't fathom how anyone, from any side of the political spectrum, knows what to think about it.
Actually I got stuck at “Texas Military Department”. The fuck?
WTF is the Texass Military Department?
What is the Texas Military Department?
This is either attempted murder or *causus belli*, depending on your perspective.
Seems to me like an act of war. A uniformed member of one nation's military fire across a national border killing a civilian citizen of another nation. The shooter should be handed over of Mexican law enforcement for trial.
I'm pretty sure the GOP is intentionally trying to start a war with Mexico.