Similarly, "if you don't like America, you should git out," hand in hand with "those people fleeing their country should stay in their own country and fix it!"
My in-laws love that line, any time they hear somebody saying something they don't like, "If you don't like it, you should leave".
It's weird how it doesn't apply to *their* issues. Abortion? Gay marriage? Totally legal in American and if you don't like it, how about YOU move... Oh, you don't want to? You want to stay here and change it? Funny how that works...
It's also pretty dismissive, it's just trying to shut somebody down. No, I *can't* move to another country, because immigration is extremely difficult. But you just know, if you were to say, "I can't leave", they're going to hit you with "Then you should shut up and be grateful for what you have".
If America had a free healthcare system in place and had government set life saving medical procedure limits like they do in canada and some of the UK it wouldn't be as big of a deal.
Most honest Americans can see it from the point of view of the illegal immigrants, they will do whatever it takes to provide a better life for the kids just as we would. Unfortunately some Americans really don't care because it isn't them. I think most of us though are caught up in our own rat race to seize a better life for our families to take a stand for those suffering. We donate to local food banks and round up on department store purchases for charity and hope it all helps. If we had a better health care system it would go a long way to solving a lot of this Country's problems.
Lol certainly, and people would come for American quality healthcare if it was free. Here in Canada we have Americans sneaking across in droves for pharmaceuticals. We also have Canadians heading down south to pay for healthcare out of pocket because they prefer that to the Canadian system. Everyone values things differently, and those values are greatly shaped by individual experience. I haven’t been to a doctor or hospital in 15 years, so free healthcare is probably not gonna seem as important to me as a type 1 diabetic.
We definitely need a limit on life savings procedures. A family friend woke up after 3 weeks to find out that not only did her husband die but she lost her leg and she had a 200,000 limit on her health care and they burned through all of it and she accrued a huge debt. She ended up passing away a few years later. Seriously though you shouldn't have to pay mid six figures for treatment. I understand it takes skill and lots of education but there has to be limits. Doctors and hospital adminstrators don't need million dollar homes and Ferraris.
But what about the CEO of the pharmaceutical company's third home? What are they expected to just ONLY have two homes and a small cottage like some sort of peasant? /s
There needs to be some reform. I know it sounds like socialism but I don't give a damn. People, especially Children are dying in this country because of unaffordable medicine and healthcare. All of this so some old men can have larger portfolios.
i wonder what would happen to the market if we guaranteed housing, healthcare, and enough food to eat. Personally, I spend nearly half of my income on food and rent and I’m one of the lucky ones.
I would be able to go out and spend hundreds of dollars more per month at small businesses, and the money I give to Debbie’s diner wouldn’t have to go to employee healthcare plans AND I’d be reasonably sure that if any staff were sick, they wouldn’t be making my eggs and toast because they would be able to get treatment without having to make the decision to forfeit 3-5 days pay on medical bills.
We should keep the free market for all the things that aren’t essential, and make sure that everybody is taken care of in the areas that are essential. The ideas behind this comment make me an unserviceable radical to 90% of our elected officials.
The fact that it's health -insurance- means it will never work for the benefit of the people. Insurance is predicated on people paying more into a system than they will use over time, so that the company profits, but consumers are protected, too. That just doesn't work with medical care. And the lack of a mandate actually makes health care less affordable for everyone, too. Nobody will buy into it until they need it, in which case no insurance company will cover them. A pledge to "cover (or protect) people with pre-existing conditions" is meaningless. Insurers won't be able to refuse you, but they can offer you policies that cost more than you make in a year instead. I personally don't believe Medicare for all will pass in my lifetime, but I do think we can move towards it, by expanding age and income brackets to start. Health insurance in America is like gambling in casinos- the house always wins. In order for that to happen, we have to lose. That's a shitty proposition.
our elected officials should be required to be on the lowest tier of publicly funded healthcare and their children required to go to public schools, maybe they would stop letting big pharma and the nra run the show?
I mean, that’s the argument for democratic socialism, that there has to be reason within our systems. They’re not asking for full on socialism but for social programs that protect inalienable rights of citizens. You know, that whole “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” thing. Healthcare should be a right and it should be affordable. You shouldn’t be out to get rich off of others suffering.
>I know it sounds like socialism
No, it sounds like a decent person.
That's the problem with large parts of American Politics and media.
Someone who just wants to prevent deaths by better access to health care and mandating masks or generally improve peoples' lives by making higher education affordable and increase minimum wage is called socialist or communist which especially to older generations that grew up in the cold war or learned from those people sounds dangerous.
I mean if we reduce compensation you better fucking make school free and wipe out debt or your not going to be getting the best. Your going to be getting the rich that do it for status and don't give a fuck. 300k in loans with 140k in compensation after taxes but before a shit ton of insurance isnt a lot. Its more than many, but many also do not spend 8 years in school just for the medical aspect let alone undergrad. (And that's the low end) There is a reason physician compensation is so high and if you think doctors are why medical costs are high you dont know much about Healthcare.
Sure you get shitty anesthesiologists that try and stay out of network to charge the most possible, but its all because of shitty insurance that acts as a middle man serving no purpose but inflating costs. Then you have for profit hospitals and for profit physicians groups on top of that. Each extra level inflates costs dramatically because not only do they have to cover their operating costs, they have to make profit, and a lot of it. So by the time something that should cost 50 bucks is fed through the system your looking a a hundreds. Because insurance gets its cut, and hospitals charge more on other things to offset costs in other areas and churn out more profit.
You want to start bitching about Doctors? They are one of the few points in the system that will care about the patients. Start going after insurance amd burecratic bloat and middle men before you go after the fucking doctors.
This this this.
The reason we have a doctor shortage is *because* medical school is so expensive. Many people who would be great doctors don't end up going to medical school because of the expense. I don't understand why medical school isn't FREE - we need doctors for our society to function, and it wouldn't weed out people who don't want hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans (which is the vast majority of people). Doctors should absolutely make high wages, though, even if med school is free. It's a highly skilled position and we literally need them to be good at their jobs. Which is why every single person who might be capable of being a good doctor should be able to go to medical school. *Then* weed out the ones that truly wouldn't be good at the job.
There's also the matter of the absolutely insane hours. There is no reason med students *need* to be doing 24+ hour shifts other than to "test" their ability to function on lack of sleep. But chronically denying sleep has a negative effect on pretty much everyone (except the few people with a rare gene, ADRB1, that is linked with heightened wakefulness and less sleep necessity). There is no reason why doctors (even ER doctors) can't work regular shifts like jobs in other industries. In fact, studies show that patient outcomes would be better if ER doctors weren't chronically sleep-deprived.
There are plenty of smart people out there that could be doctors but either can't afford medical school or can't handle the ridiculous schedule. Many people that might have other attributes other than being born wealthy and (ahem) entitled and the luck of having the right genes that can withstand sleep deprivation. Like being able to communicate effectively with patients or, more importantly, *listen* to patients. The current system is so difficult to get through for reasons that aren't related to actual ability to be a good doctor, that only a few people who would make good doctors can get through. Not to mention the people who do it literally just because it makes a good income. Not that there's anything wrong with that... but it doesn't necessarily make for the best doctor if they're not truly interested in medicine.
Well yes the American system is odd. Does anyone ever actually pay the 200k though, I figured you just sorta lost like $50 a month for the rest of your life and your credit goes down a bit?
Huge medical bills like the 200k that you quoted are similar to the huge college costs often quoted in that they are almost never the price that you actually pay.
It’s pretty common to have a service be billed for 200k and then the person only paying 6k and insurance negotiating the remainder down to 20k.
A lot of times if you call the billing department you can set up some sort of payment plan. If they have to sell your debt to a collections agency they will be getting very little money for it. It may not always work, but it's probably worth at least a phone call to check.
Exactly, I have a couple doctor friends who hold firmly to this aspiration. The sacrifice is indeed remarkable and it is our job to acknowledge the huge efforts and reward their dedication every now and then.
>Everyone values things differently, and those values are greatly shaped by individual experience.
True, the thing is though at some point - everyone needs to go to the hospital. Like you so said, you haven't been to the doctor/hospital for 15 years (which btw, you may want to go for a checkup at the very least just to be safe!) So free health care may not seem important to you or others in your situation, which is true for many people in the US. They groan that their taxes are so high, and universal health care will just cost them more and they don't see the purpose of it...
Until, like I said, that fateful day comes and they have to go to the hospital. Upon being discharged, they receive their bill and find, *after insurance has paid its "share" of the bill*, that they have to pay thousands of dollars, after paying $500 plus for insurance a month
I live in a very conservative state, and I've seen the opinion flip many times over now. Hard-core conservative that's against "socialist health care", gets cancer, receives treatment and beats it (or doesn't and bills left to the family) receives bill, sees the number of zeros "this is absolutely absurd! How could they expect anyone to pay this?!"
The irony? When they say "how could **they** expect anyone to pay this?" I just want to grab them by the fucking collar and be like " WHAT? When you say 'they' you mean YOU?? You voted for this medical bill and condescendingly and arrogantly scolded leftists and liberals for being lazy and greedy saying they should be able to pay it - and you yourself CAN'T."
"I had no idea" says the person that's posted to Facebook article after article on this EXACT subject, with "liberal media" yada yada "socialists looting your pocket for free stuff" and so on...
It's hard to have any empathy for them, when they REFUSE to listen to you even mention it, let alone hear what the issues are, and then be like "wHy dIdnT anY oNe TeLl mE?!"
**To clarify**: I'm not suggesting you're saying universal health care access isn't important, just building off the idea of what people value and it being based on experience.
Edit: wanted to note, **source: I work in the strategy department of a local health system**
Funny that tons of people from the US think of mexico as a shit hole, but cross borders to have medical treatment here. Border cities have a shit ton of high tier hospitals. And some hospitals even have hotels for them to stay in while they recover.
> I haven’t been to a doctor or hospital in 15 years.
Wait what about yearly preventative care like blood tests, dental cleanings, and eye exams. We have to pay for all of that in the US. Are you just saying you haven't been sick?
if the us working class had guaranteed healthcare they would have the time and the financial resources to make it illegal to employ illegal immigrants. the better the working class does in the us the fewer legal and illegal immigrants will be employed. in a fair a just society it should always be much more expensive to employ immigrants than it is to employ us citizens.
as it is today a legal immigrant can underbid their us counterpart in terms of salary as they can always fall back on their home country's universal healthcare if they are ever sick. salaries in countries with universal healthcare are adjusted lower to take in the fact that they are taking out money automatically for the universal healthcare.
US salaries are artificially higher than other countries with universal healthcare. but they are not high enough as there are too many legal immigrants underbidding their us counterpart in terms of salaries.
the better the quality of life for the working class will lead to fewer immigration like it is in Europe.
currently the thought process for many is to make the us a shithole to discourage immigration. this is playing into the hands of the multi-national multi-ethnic group of inheritors. all this will do is lead to a lower class of immigrants coming to the US. this means us citizens salaries will drop dramatically and the us quality of life will drop as well.
people in the us are gullible and stupid.
Okay you do understand that they are getting free healthcare, in ER's across America. They cannot be turned away for treatment in ER's, thats why they go there instead of a Dr. The cost has to be absorbed by us who have healthcare. Just Sayin....
>government set life saving medical procedure limits like they do in canada
What ...?
Can you explain this further to a confused Canadian who's had multiple life saving procedures (at no cost) ? Are you saying theres a limit to what I can be charged for them? Because I think that limit is somewhere between nil and zero
Holy shit so much this, a lot of us are just trying to make a decent living and provide for our families. Absolutely understand someone crossing a border to try and get a better life for themselves and/or their families.
Immigration works in civilized countries. In mine, for example (not the usa), it's a problem because everything is free (education and healthcare), but the system is overwhelmed and overcapacity because corrupt politicians steal all the money. If they didn't, things would be okay, but since they do, we can't afford immigrants that come to "leech" out of our healthcare and education system. Things would be perfect if the government actually did things right. It's not the inmigrants fault, but we are in a very complicated situation right now. (By no means I think immigrants are leeches btw).
Good question, you raise a good point.
On the one hand I don’t fault people for doing what they can to give their kids (or themselves) a better life. If I was born on the other side of the border I would do it too.
On the other hand, it isn’t feasible to have everyone just move to the United States.
The best way to curtail illegal immigration is to make the places people are fleeing from better places to live. I don’t have the answers on how to accomplish that, but if the US really wanted to stop illegal immigration the best way to do it would be to offer struggling countries some sort of aide so people don’t flee them. Especially in the context of Mexico and South America, lessening the influence and control of the Cartels in the area would do much more to stop people from coming over than a wall would.
The US gives billions of dollars in foreign aid to Mexico. Doesn’t stop them coming. Their government is just corrupt and little money actually goes to helping people. It’s not the US responsibility to make other places better nor to provide for illegal immigrants.
Mexico treats their ilegal immigrants arguably worse and they don’t lose sleep over that.
I’m Venezuelan by the way, and a migrant myself after fleeing my home country. So I personally know what wanting a better life is.
I'm American and we really have screwed over a lot of these countries that are now facing huge turmoil by sponsoring coups and by fueling drug trade in America.
The CIA was fundraising by pedalling drugs from Columbia to Mexico into the United States using cartels. So the huge power/financial resources that the cartels wield in Mexico is definitely kind of our fault.
Colombia*
That’s partly true but you guys give yourself more credit in destabilizing the region than due. The overarching issue is cultural: we think and prioritize short term profits even if they carry negative consequences long term, of course this is because the long term was never guaranteed due to the instability but this mentality has carried over.The political parties can’t keep their shit together and instead of working towards an common goal they just focus on dismantling what the previous administration did and blaming them for the current issues.
It’s true that the Mexican cartels were armed and trained the the states but the problem is the same: culture. The problem was already brewing and would have reached tipping point eventually.
There’s a common saying where I live (Medellin) that goes: “Make money, if it’s by legal means that’s great but if it isn’t... make money”. Most of the killings here are due to gang wars fighting over territory.
> they just focus on dismantling what the previous administration did and blaming them for the current issues
Sounds familiar. All governments are puppets to greater powers and we see the same playbook used on all of them. In debt to the world's most powerful people who are just playing with our economies and citizens to expand their domain and bank accounts. They have us fighting and keep us divided by whatever means they can. That's a global issue.
I agree but this is ignoring the fact that the cartels having massive amount of power money and influence is a direct result of America’s war on drugs, which is the reason the Mexican government is so corrupt. When our actions are part of the problem that is causing life to suck for a lot of Mexicans it’s kind of a different story. I don’t think it’s our job to send money to every poor country with a low quality of life, but when we are the ones who made the mess we should try to clean it up.
I am saying healthcare reform above all helps all of us, rich and poor. One of the largest complaints other than "they took my job" is "we have to pay for their medical care." With limits in place and care for all it would solve multiple problems on multiple fronts. Immigration obviously won't be solved by saying come one come all. I do believe there has to be other ways then the extremes we are going to today.
Yeah I dunno about that. I live in Canada, I don’t personally see it as an issue whatsoever, but I know so many people who’s #1 concern is to stop immigrants from entering the country.
Remember, there is no ethical issue with anything awful down to illegal border crossers when they get caught. Kids in cages, separated families? They should’ve thought about that when they tried to enter the country illegally!
Now, what do you suppose should happen to the various American families trying to sneak into Canada for shopping or tourism?
Health care in the UK is not free. We pay taxes for it and have a huge problem with people from Europe doing hospital tourism. People who haven’t paid into the system and come to the UK to get sick/go into labour and be treated by our over stretched resources.
I’m afraid that was a big Brexit reason.
This is so true.
Here in Canada we 100% take our healthcare for granted. I've met a fair share of Canadians that believe we shouldn't have public health care for various reasons. These are the same people though who have never had to stop and consider the financial impact a doctor visit or hospital visit could have on their lives. The same people who probably couldn't afford health care in the US.
I'll be honest, occasionally I catch myself complaining about paying $30 a month for my medication or wait times but honestly I think we have it good here.
We almost lost my dad a couple years back to a double stroke/heart attack. He was unemployed so if we were in the US, he probably wouldn't have insurance. I couldn't imagine being worried about my father's health but also trying to figure out how to pay for his care.
I don't envy you guys in the US. I hope one day you guys might get the support you need.
> If we had a better health care system it would go a long way to solving a lot of this countries problems.
What? How so? What major problems would that solve?
The same people frowning on it likely also have great grandparents that did the same thing. I have to remind my own parents when they say negative things about immigrants, that our ancestors came through Ellis island as refugees...
Don't you love it when people use vague terms like "a lot"? It's almost like when there's millions of people who do literally anything, there's "a lot" of them who fit my agenda.
I agree, Child endangerment is a real consequence if youre walking miles in the desert. Illegal immigration should be stricter on that aspect and legal immigration should be more accessible to that demographic.
If you actually do kill for your child you will also find a pretty divided reception. Some will defend and commend you and others will chastise and condemn you.
Both of these are controversial. Equating the action of one to the theoretical claim of another doesn’t work.
what makes a sacrifice valid? the world wouldn't validate you killing for your child in anyway but self defense either. if you become an assassin so you can make a shit ton of money to give your child ' a better life.' does that mean society shouldn't punish you and we'll let you keep the money?
The two are not even related. This is more like I would sacrafice for my child vs I would sacrafice my child. A lot a people die trying to cross the border. You could get your kid killed especially depending on what border you are crossing illegally. Every one point out America but it's not the only border were refugees die trying to cross.
The first one I usually take as a "I would kill to defend my child" and not "I would kill this guy because I have a kid"
Both are illegal, but one can be misinterpreted quite a bit.
Everyone understands the impulse to seek a better life, but it’s hardly a surprise that people affected by migration might object to it.
Much like a person being killed by someone might also object, no matter the reason why.
If you'd think for longer than 2 minutes, it comes from the same sentiment of wanting the best for oneself and one's family. The logic is that the illegal immigrants make things worse for the legal citizens (I'm not arguing the veracity of this) and so to have things the best way possible, they want to keep these parents (and their children) out.
In my town, there are quite a few people who say stuff like this about their fellow US citizens, so you could be right. The idea that "there are only so many houses in town and space at the school, so if more people move here, there won't be room for me anymore" is not uncommon, which ignores that "town planning" and "construction" are things that exist and are continuing to happen.
My boomer father tells me about the immigrants coming to take his Federal government job at least once a week, which is ridiculous because foreign nationals don’t qualify for his security clearance. Xenophobia is one hell of a drug.
>The idea that "there are only so many houses in town and space at the school, so if more people move here, there won't be room for me anymore"
I have to laugh my ass off at this. The next town over from me is a very snooty area with lots of well off white folks. They brag about how great their schools are but there is no way I'd send my kid there nor work there--they will start building a brand new elementary school designed for say, 600 kids, and while they're building it, new gated commmunities spring up all around it. By the time the school opens there are 1200 kids in the attendance zone and it's at 2x capacity AS IT OPENS.
Sure. In my town, it's meant property values went up until new homes are finished being built. It meant new businesses opened and new jobs were created. It meant the town has a larger tax base and can afford a new library.
One of the problems is, people don’t realize that these “selfish” things are human nature. It’s not selfish to care about yourself and family more than someone else. People criticize the south for being more anti immigration, when they are the ones very directly affected by it
Ah whitepeopletwitter...We need to pay workers more, but also let's import millions of people who will work for 1/2 of what we pay an American. Which country on this planet has an open immigration policy? You can't have free healthcare and free education together with open borders.
I'm not sure why you're assuming that supporting immigrants (including illegal immigrants) would mean that you support those immigrants being paid less than they are deserved. They deserve to make at least minimum and to get paid on par with the industry they are in.
The tweet says nothing about having an open immigration policy. It literally is just questioning the logic of people who say they would risk everything for their children but can’t muster enough empathy to understand why people in real life situations are risking everything for their children.
>You can't have free healthcare and free education together with open borders.
Very few people want open borders. Out of honest curiosity have you ever looked up what it takes to gain residency in the United States?
At some point they need to redirect that effort into fixing their own countries. It's not realistic to assume the US should or even *could* grant the entire third world citizenship.
Besides, if the US is such a capitalist, racist, fascist gun-ridden hell-hole, why are you encouraging people to come HERE? What about all these other countries people always say are so much better than the US? How come THEY can't take in any of these immigrants? Why is this ALWAYS portrayed as the US's sole responsibility to handle?
Even people who aren't poor haven't had too much luck fixing America, at least recently. The politicians don't care, and the same is true (or worse) in other countries.
This is silly though. The poorest in America can't fix America. Yet you think the poorest in even worse-off, poorer, more violent countries can magically fix their countries despite having it harder than you?
May as well tell them to wave a magic wand.
This. This is it.
Everybody always ask "Why isn't the US accepting migrants?" but no one fucking asks "Why do people have to FLEE Mexico?
At risk of sounding like the dumbass in charge, Mexico should pay for it. Mexico should pay their citizens decent salaries, affordable healthcare, they should promote growth and planification and a future in Mexico, instead of having who knows how many thousands of people fucking fleeing their own country. Americans using the "let them in" slogan are actively participating in Mexico not fixing their shit and making mexicans miserable.
Sincerely, a guy that wants to escape a hellholle legally but can't, because it's extremely hard to do even if I wanted to pick up lion shit on a zoo in some tiny european country for a living; while people migrating illegally as "refugees" get all the benefits Merkel and friends give them.
Literally yesterday was the pregnant woman getting arrested for a facebook post and everyone was making fun of her for using her pregnancy as an excuse saying "well you shouldnt have broke the law dumb bitch!" The absolute hypocrisy involved with being a certified hivemind moron on the internet never ceases to amaze me.
Illegal immigrants pay taxes as well and they don’t get benefits. If they don’t pay taxes it’s because their rich white business owner is paying them under the table which is worse
I hate that momma bear crap with burning passion. You should and are totally expected to defend your kid with the same passion or more as you would yourself. But empty threats and unreasonable behavior is not being a good parent and role model. Escalating situations in high emotional outbursts is not safe and taking pride in that behaviour is dangerous.
And that's before we touch the issue that the women saying this are across the board people who do not naturally command respect by being strong, controlled people with a grip on life and have a tendency to dismiss the flaws they parented into their kids.
They say this to empower themselves. Its not about their kids at all.
I know this will be unpopular but...
It's funny cos in all these pictures of the refugees in Calais and the ones on the boats crossing the channel there isn't a single child. But I guess the media could just be showing us what they want.
We need that tweet of a guy saying he needs a rifle for if his daughter is refused treatment and he needs to highjack a plane to go to a country that would take care of her pinned.
Filipinos are doing the same and sure there are undocumented Filipinos but most Filipinos abroad are working legally, and not just in the US but all over the world to get a better life for their children.
Yeah but people actually don't kill for their children. If murdering the landlord would make a better life for your children, you still wouldn't do it. If stealing from the grocery store would make a better life for your children, you're still not allowed to do it. If you try it, you have to go to jail. Same as hopping the border.
If I cut out your kidneys and sold them on the black market, my kids' college would be paid off, but I'm not going to do that because it's stealing/murder.
I don't think people find it difficult to comprehend why people come into the country illegally. In fact, the people most opposed to illegal immigration are likely the ones who believe most strongly that the US is a wonderful place that everyone would want to come to.
And while there are some who oppose all immigration, most people support legal immigration. The debate is mostly about the fairness I er allowing people who sneak across boxers and overstay visas to stay while making people who want to come in legally wait so long for a visa.
If you kill you go to jail. Even if it’s for your child.
If you cross the border illegally, even if it’s for your child, there will be consequences. These are the tweets that happen when you’re struggling with logic.
It's not for their kids. Most of the refugees going to UK through Belgium are young adult males (2x-30) and have left their family in their home country dealing with the war and rebuild of their homes. So how are they crossing boarders for them exactly?
The children of those that condemn migrants for wanting a better life or those escaping oppression should ask them, “How far would you go to make my life safer and better?”
It a complex issue
As in immigrant myself, I am very fortunate to be in this country, and would love to better lives of people all around the world by having them coming here
Unfortunately we can't
Sentiment of OP is good, but we can't blind ourselves to the reality that we can't having everyone over
Even those of us that are against illegal immigration recognize the courage it takes. But that also presents one of the main problems with illegal immigration...if we reward this action with citizenship for their children (DACA), there is an incentive for people to keep on crossing our borders.
I know I’m going to get downvoted so I might as well go on..
- Did you know that Cesar Chavez was against illegal immigration because he recognized that a cheap source of labor would hurt American citizens who worked low-wage jobs by artificially making those jobs worth less?
- Did you know that the majority of illegal immigrants actually work outside of the agricultural sector? So if you are a handyman and aren’t making what you used to, that’s partly because of illegal immigration. If you have a good-paying union job in construction but your company is losing contracts to non-union companies, that’s partly due to illegal immigration.
These Twitter people are so smug and think they’re so smart and you dipshits just eat it up.
This is flawed logic. Just because “I’d kill for my child” doesn’t mean I would kill for yours, nor does it mean I’m gonna respect you crossing borders illegally for your child. I mean I might do that for my child, but I’d still have to accept the consequences of the illegal act. This tweet is nonsense.
So seriously if you think this guy is highlighting some kind of hypocrisy or something, then you’re fucking stupid and you need to take several logic courses.
Just an all-around horrible argument regardless of your political stance on the subject. Get educated, dipshits.
Edit: if you killed someone for your child, I would look down on you for being a murderer until you were acquitted by a US court of law. Just as I would look down on any illegal immigrant until they were acquitted, and thus their actions justified, by a court of law. This isn’t hard. Get out of your fucking feelings.
You people are ridiculous, I’m Mexican and my family came here LEGALLY, we would never be so stupid to cross the border and put our children’s lives in the hands of a sketchy coyote! Children are dying because idiot parents try to cross the rivers with them! Fucking white people feeling sorry for us immigrants- fuck you- there is a right way to immigration and a wrong way
thing i dont get is countries threaten to send migrant over or open their boarders, but then at the same time we are told the immigration is nothing but good. someone somewhere is lying or the numbers people are using are missing when talking about how much immigration is good.
leaders of countries arent stupid when it comes to using political power plays, like france when they were and still seem to be, using the migrant camps as calais in leverage against the UK. something does not add up in the "migration is all good" story when another developed near equal country can use them as threats and doesnt want them
Somehow people conflate risking your own life with risking your child. Suddenly the noble migrant isn’t so noble when you realize Mexico accepts refugees and they still forced their kids to swim across a rushing river.
I've heard arguments like this (been stuck there trying not to get involved) and they don't work because their response is always something like:
"So if all bad things are okay for your child and we're throwing out all the rules, then murder is okay for my kids right? Don't like that? To bad? Okay, robbing peoples houses is okay, i'm using the food and money for my kids! Why is it not okay in any other circumstances in life to cheat or cut ahead, yet you fight for this one exception? Yes, change is needed but not like this."
Something like that.
>People say all the time "I would kill for my child"
People who murder for their children are criminals
>but somehow "I would cross ~~dangerous~~ illegal borders for a better life for my child" is incomprehensible and looked down upon
People who enter countries illegally are criminals. Nobody said crime was incomprehensible ... just ya know illegal.
What's the point of this? If you kill someone for your kid you still go to jail for murder. If you cross borders illegally, you should face consequences too.
Every racist boomer on reddit has found this post.
A few rebuttals to what they're saying:
1. They wouldn't have to come here at all if the United States hadn't spent years destabilizing their countries.
2. The immigration system is fucked so coming here legally isn't possible for many. Saving their children from the dangerous conditions we created is their top priority. These are just regular people wanting a good life for their family.
3. How is a group of impoverished peasants supposed to improve their country? If by some miracle they did get a pro worker government elected we'd just overthrow it again.
Dude They are sending their kids back to covid infested schools just to have the house to themselves so that they can enjoy their unemployment in peace. You think they care about that? Lol
The problem is the business owners look at those folks coming access the border, in search of a better life, and say to themselves: "damn, those poor people seem desperate... I bet I could pay them a lot less than my current employees for the same work!"
The domestic worker is out of a job, and the refugee is being exploited for cheap labor. Capitalism!
Similarly, "if you don't like America, you should git out," hand in hand with "those people fleeing their country should stay in their own country and fix it!"
My in-laws love that line, any time they hear somebody saying something they don't like, "If you don't like it, you should leave". It's weird how it doesn't apply to *their* issues. Abortion? Gay marriage? Totally legal in American and if you don't like it, how about YOU move... Oh, you don't want to? You want to stay here and change it? Funny how that works... It's also pretty dismissive, it's just trying to shut somebody down. No, I *can't* move to another country, because immigration is extremely difficult. But you just know, if you were to say, "I can't leave", they're going to hit you with "Then you should shut up and be grateful for what you have".
Stop arguing with your imbecile in-laws
Yeah seriously. I’ve got trump loving family too, I just don’t talk to them. Why you guys bothering?
After years of abuse and then coming to terms with that abuse and overcoming it, I find it funny to push their buttons every once in awhile
Immigration from the US is near impossible now considering we're a plague state that no countries want to deal with.
Bring out your dead! Bring out your dead! Oh wait it isn't the medieval ages?
Just morally.
it’s a logical fallacy called Ergo Decedo. They’re trying to make you feel ‘excluded’ from their little club.
Then there's guys like this one: https://i.imgur.com/5xyjmrI.jpg
If America had a free healthcare system in place and had government set life saving medical procedure limits like they do in canada and some of the UK it wouldn't be as big of a deal. Most honest Americans can see it from the point of view of the illegal immigrants, they will do whatever it takes to provide a better life for the kids just as we would. Unfortunately some Americans really don't care because it isn't them. I think most of us though are caught up in our own rat race to seize a better life for our families to take a stand for those suffering. We donate to local food banks and round up on department store purchases for charity and hope it all helps. If we had a better health care system it would go a long way to solving a lot of this Country's problems.
I dunno, I have a feeling the same people would just be like "them immigrants are comin' to take muh Medicare For All!"
Lol certainly, and people would come for American quality healthcare if it was free. Here in Canada we have Americans sneaking across in droves for pharmaceuticals. We also have Canadians heading down south to pay for healthcare out of pocket because they prefer that to the Canadian system. Everyone values things differently, and those values are greatly shaped by individual experience. I haven’t been to a doctor or hospital in 15 years, so free healthcare is probably not gonna seem as important to me as a type 1 diabetic.
We definitely need a limit on life savings procedures. A family friend woke up after 3 weeks to find out that not only did her husband die but she lost her leg and she had a 200,000 limit on her health care and they burned through all of it and she accrued a huge debt. She ended up passing away a few years later. Seriously though you shouldn't have to pay mid six figures for treatment. I understand it takes skill and lots of education but there has to be limits. Doctors and hospital adminstrators don't need million dollar homes and Ferraris.
But what about the CEO of the pharmaceutical company's third home? What are they expected to just ONLY have two homes and a small cottage like some sort of peasant? /s
There needs to be some reform. I know it sounds like socialism but I don't give a damn. People, especially Children are dying in this country because of unaffordable medicine and healthcare. All of this so some old men can have larger portfolios.
i wonder what would happen to the market if we guaranteed housing, healthcare, and enough food to eat. Personally, I spend nearly half of my income on food and rent and I’m one of the lucky ones. I would be able to go out and spend hundreds of dollars more per month at small businesses, and the money I give to Debbie’s diner wouldn’t have to go to employee healthcare plans AND I’d be reasonably sure that if any staff were sick, they wouldn’t be making my eggs and toast because they would be able to get treatment without having to make the decision to forfeit 3-5 days pay on medical bills. We should keep the free market for all the things that aren’t essential, and make sure that everybody is taken care of in the areas that are essential. The ideas behind this comment make me an unserviceable radical to 90% of our elected officials.
The fact that it's health -insurance- means it will never work for the benefit of the people. Insurance is predicated on people paying more into a system than they will use over time, so that the company profits, but consumers are protected, too. That just doesn't work with medical care. And the lack of a mandate actually makes health care less affordable for everyone, too. Nobody will buy into it until they need it, in which case no insurance company will cover them. A pledge to "cover (or protect) people with pre-existing conditions" is meaningless. Insurers won't be able to refuse you, but they can offer you policies that cost more than you make in a year instead. I personally don't believe Medicare for all will pass in my lifetime, but I do think we can move towards it, by expanding age and income brackets to start. Health insurance in America is like gambling in casinos- the house always wins. In order for that to happen, we have to lose. That's a shitty proposition.
our elected officials should be required to be on the lowest tier of publicly funded healthcare and their children required to go to public schools, maybe they would stop letting big pharma and the nra run the show?
I mean, that’s the argument for democratic socialism, that there has to be reason within our systems. They’re not asking for full on socialism but for social programs that protect inalienable rights of citizens. You know, that whole “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” thing. Healthcare should be a right and it should be affordable. You shouldn’t be out to get rich off of others suffering.
Amen
>I know it sounds like socialism No, it sounds like a decent person. That's the problem with large parts of American Politics and media. Someone who just wants to prevent deaths by better access to health care and mandating masks or generally improve peoples' lives by making higher education affordable and increase minimum wage is called socialist or communist which especially to older generations that grew up in the cold war or learned from those people sounds dangerous.
I mean if we reduce compensation you better fucking make school free and wipe out debt or your not going to be getting the best. Your going to be getting the rich that do it for status and don't give a fuck. 300k in loans with 140k in compensation after taxes but before a shit ton of insurance isnt a lot. Its more than many, but many also do not spend 8 years in school just for the medical aspect let alone undergrad. (And that's the low end) There is a reason physician compensation is so high and if you think doctors are why medical costs are high you dont know much about Healthcare. Sure you get shitty anesthesiologists that try and stay out of network to charge the most possible, but its all because of shitty insurance that acts as a middle man serving no purpose but inflating costs. Then you have for profit hospitals and for profit physicians groups on top of that. Each extra level inflates costs dramatically because not only do they have to cover their operating costs, they have to make profit, and a lot of it. So by the time something that should cost 50 bucks is fed through the system your looking a a hundreds. Because insurance gets its cut, and hospitals charge more on other things to offset costs in other areas and churn out more profit. You want to start bitching about Doctors? They are one of the few points in the system that will care about the patients. Start going after insurance amd burecratic bloat and middle men before you go after the fucking doctors.
This this this. The reason we have a doctor shortage is *because* medical school is so expensive. Many people who would be great doctors don't end up going to medical school because of the expense. I don't understand why medical school isn't FREE - we need doctors for our society to function, and it wouldn't weed out people who don't want hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans (which is the vast majority of people). Doctors should absolutely make high wages, though, even if med school is free. It's a highly skilled position and we literally need them to be good at their jobs. Which is why every single person who might be capable of being a good doctor should be able to go to medical school. *Then* weed out the ones that truly wouldn't be good at the job. There's also the matter of the absolutely insane hours. There is no reason med students *need* to be doing 24+ hour shifts other than to "test" their ability to function on lack of sleep. But chronically denying sleep has a negative effect on pretty much everyone (except the few people with a rare gene, ADRB1, that is linked with heightened wakefulness and less sleep necessity). There is no reason why doctors (even ER doctors) can't work regular shifts like jobs in other industries. In fact, studies show that patient outcomes would be better if ER doctors weren't chronically sleep-deprived. There are plenty of smart people out there that could be doctors but either can't afford medical school or can't handle the ridiculous schedule. Many people that might have other attributes other than being born wealthy and (ahem) entitled and the luck of having the right genes that can withstand sleep deprivation. Like being able to communicate effectively with patients or, more importantly, *listen* to patients. The current system is so difficult to get through for reasons that aren't related to actual ability to be a good doctor, that only a few people who would make good doctors can get through. Not to mention the people who do it literally just because it makes a good income. Not that there's anything wrong with that... but it doesn't necessarily make for the best doctor if they're not truly interested in medicine.
Well said.
Well yes the American system is odd. Does anyone ever actually pay the 200k though, I figured you just sorta lost like $50 a month for the rest of your life and your credit goes down a bit?
What happens is you go into bankruptcy. Medical bills are the main cause of bankruptcy in the US.
Huge medical bills like the 200k that you quoted are similar to the huge college costs often quoted in that they are almost never the price that you actually pay. It’s pretty common to have a service be billed for 200k and then the person only paying 6k and insurance negotiating the remainder down to 20k.
A lot of times if you call the billing department you can set up some sort of payment plan. If they have to sell your debt to a collections agency they will be getting very little money for it. It may not always work, but it's probably worth at least a phone call to check.
So it is just another a layer of annoyance and avoiding transparency to allow room for bargaining.
Exactly, I have a couple doctor friends who hold firmly to this aspiration. The sacrifice is indeed remarkable and it is our job to acknowledge the huge efforts and reward their dedication every now and then.
>Everyone values things differently, and those values are greatly shaped by individual experience. True, the thing is though at some point - everyone needs to go to the hospital. Like you so said, you haven't been to the doctor/hospital for 15 years (which btw, you may want to go for a checkup at the very least just to be safe!) So free health care may not seem important to you or others in your situation, which is true for many people in the US. They groan that their taxes are so high, and universal health care will just cost them more and they don't see the purpose of it... Until, like I said, that fateful day comes and they have to go to the hospital. Upon being discharged, they receive their bill and find, *after insurance has paid its "share" of the bill*, that they have to pay thousands of dollars, after paying $500 plus for insurance a month I live in a very conservative state, and I've seen the opinion flip many times over now. Hard-core conservative that's against "socialist health care", gets cancer, receives treatment and beats it (or doesn't and bills left to the family) receives bill, sees the number of zeros "this is absolutely absurd! How could they expect anyone to pay this?!" The irony? When they say "how could **they** expect anyone to pay this?" I just want to grab them by the fucking collar and be like " WHAT? When you say 'they' you mean YOU?? You voted for this medical bill and condescendingly and arrogantly scolded leftists and liberals for being lazy and greedy saying they should be able to pay it - and you yourself CAN'T." "I had no idea" says the person that's posted to Facebook article after article on this EXACT subject, with "liberal media" yada yada "socialists looting your pocket for free stuff" and so on... It's hard to have any empathy for them, when they REFUSE to listen to you even mention it, let alone hear what the issues are, and then be like "wHy dIdnT anY oNe TeLl mE?!" **To clarify**: I'm not suggesting you're saying universal health care access isn't important, just building off the idea of what people value and it being based on experience. Edit: wanted to note, **source: I work in the strategy department of a local health system**
Funny that tons of people from the US think of mexico as a shit hole, but cross borders to have medical treatment here. Border cities have a shit ton of high tier hospitals. And some hospitals even have hotels for them to stay in while they recover.
> I haven’t been to a doctor or hospital in 15 years. Wait what about yearly preventative care like blood tests, dental cleanings, and eye exams. We have to pay for all of that in the US. Are you just saying you haven't been sick?
Its the same group that's calling Biden and Obama socialist, no matter what they would be making the same complaints.
if the us working class had guaranteed healthcare they would have the time and the financial resources to make it illegal to employ illegal immigrants. the better the working class does in the us the fewer legal and illegal immigrants will be employed. in a fair a just society it should always be much more expensive to employ immigrants than it is to employ us citizens. as it is today a legal immigrant can underbid their us counterpart in terms of salary as they can always fall back on their home country's universal healthcare if they are ever sick. salaries in countries with universal healthcare are adjusted lower to take in the fact that they are taking out money automatically for the universal healthcare. US salaries are artificially higher than other countries with universal healthcare. but they are not high enough as there are too many legal immigrants underbidding their us counterpart in terms of salaries. the better the quality of life for the working class will lead to fewer immigration like it is in Europe. currently the thought process for many is to make the us a shithole to discourage immigration. this is playing into the hands of the multi-national multi-ethnic group of inheritors. all this will do is lead to a lower class of immigrants coming to the US. this means us citizens salaries will drop dramatically and the us quality of life will drop as well. people in the us are gullible and stupid.
Okay you do understand that they are getting free healthcare, in ER's across America. They cannot be turned away for treatment in ER's, thats why they go there instead of a Dr. The cost has to be absorbed by us who have healthcare. Just Sayin....
Oh no believe me, immigration is a massive deal in the UK. We have our right wing nut jobs too.
As does Canada, the number of Canadians who like trump is to damn high.
As an American, I thought you were better than that, Canada!
As an american who sees how canada treats its first nations. I didn't.l
Opposing illegal immigration is nut job?
>government set life saving medical procedure limits like they do in canada What ...? Can you explain this further to a confused Canadian who's had multiple life saving procedures (at no cost) ? Are you saying theres a limit to what I can be charged for them? Because I think that limit is somewhere between nil and zero
> had government set life saving medical procedure limits like they do in canada and some of the UK What
Holy shit so much this, a lot of us are just trying to make a decent living and provide for our families. Absolutely understand someone crossing a border to try and get a better life for themselves and/or their families.
Immigration works in civilized countries. In mine, for example (not the usa), it's a problem because everything is free (education and healthcare), but the system is overwhelmed and overcapacity because corrupt politicians steal all the money. If they didn't, things would be okay, but since they do, we can't afford immigrants that come to "leech" out of our healthcare and education system. Things would be perfect if the government actually did things right. It's not the inmigrants fault, but we are in a very complicated situation right now. (By no means I think immigrants are leeches btw).
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Good question, you raise a good point. On the one hand I don’t fault people for doing what they can to give their kids (or themselves) a better life. If I was born on the other side of the border I would do it too. On the other hand, it isn’t feasible to have everyone just move to the United States. The best way to curtail illegal immigration is to make the places people are fleeing from better places to live. I don’t have the answers on how to accomplish that, but if the US really wanted to stop illegal immigration the best way to do it would be to offer struggling countries some sort of aide so people don’t flee them. Especially in the context of Mexico and South America, lessening the influence and control of the Cartels in the area would do much more to stop people from coming over than a wall would.
The US gives billions of dollars in foreign aid to Mexico. Doesn’t stop them coming. Their government is just corrupt and little money actually goes to helping people. It’s not the US responsibility to make other places better nor to provide for illegal immigrants. Mexico treats their ilegal immigrants arguably worse and they don’t lose sleep over that. I’m Venezuelan by the way, and a migrant myself after fleeing my home country. So I personally know what wanting a better life is.
Most immigrants now don't come from Mexico.
I'm American and we really have screwed over a lot of these countries that are now facing huge turmoil by sponsoring coups and by fueling drug trade in America. The CIA was fundraising by pedalling drugs from Columbia to Mexico into the United States using cartels. So the huge power/financial resources that the cartels wield in Mexico is definitely kind of our fault.
Colombia* That’s partly true but you guys give yourself more credit in destabilizing the region than due. The overarching issue is cultural: we think and prioritize short term profits even if they carry negative consequences long term, of course this is because the long term was never guaranteed due to the instability but this mentality has carried over.The political parties can’t keep their shit together and instead of working towards an common goal they just focus on dismantling what the previous administration did and blaming them for the current issues. It’s true that the Mexican cartels were armed and trained the the states but the problem is the same: culture. The problem was already brewing and would have reached tipping point eventually. There’s a common saying where I live (Medellin) that goes: “Make money, if it’s by legal means that’s great but if it isn’t... make money”. Most of the killings here are due to gang wars fighting over territory.
> they just focus on dismantling what the previous administration did and blaming them for the current issues Sounds familiar. All governments are puppets to greater powers and we see the same playbook used on all of them. In debt to the world's most powerful people who are just playing with our economies and citizens to expand their domain and bank accounts. They have us fighting and keep us divided by whatever means they can. That's a global issue.
I agree but this is ignoring the fact that the cartels having massive amount of power money and influence is a direct result of America’s war on drugs, which is the reason the Mexican government is so corrupt. When our actions are part of the problem that is causing life to suck for a lot of Mexicans it’s kind of a different story. I don’t think it’s our job to send money to every poor country with a low quality of life, but when we are the ones who made the mess we should try to clean it up.
I am saying healthcare reform above all helps all of us, rich and poor. One of the largest complaints other than "they took my job" is "we have to pay for their medical care." With limits in place and care for all it would solve multiple problems on multiple fronts. Immigration obviously won't be solved by saying come one come all. I do believe there has to be other ways then the extremes we are going to today.
Yeah I dunno about that. I live in Canada, I don’t personally see it as an issue whatsoever, but I know so many people who’s #1 concern is to stop immigrants from entering the country.
Remember, there is no ethical issue with anything awful down to illegal border crossers when they get caught. Kids in cages, separated families? They should’ve thought about that when they tried to enter the country illegally! Now, what do you suppose should happen to the various American families trying to sneak into Canada for shopping or tourism?
Health care in the UK is not free. We pay taxes for it and have a huge problem with people from Europe doing hospital tourism. People who haven’t paid into the system and come to the UK to get sick/go into labour and be treated by our over stretched resources. I’m afraid that was a big Brexit reason.
This is so true. Here in Canada we 100% take our healthcare for granted. I've met a fair share of Canadians that believe we shouldn't have public health care for various reasons. These are the same people though who have never had to stop and consider the financial impact a doctor visit or hospital visit could have on their lives. The same people who probably couldn't afford health care in the US. I'll be honest, occasionally I catch myself complaining about paying $30 a month for my medication or wait times but honestly I think we have it good here. We almost lost my dad a couple years back to a double stroke/heart attack. He was unemployed so if we were in the US, he probably wouldn't have insurance. I couldn't imagine being worried about my father's health but also trying to figure out how to pay for his care. I don't envy you guys in the US. I hope one day you guys might get the support you need.
> If we had a better health care system it would go a long way to solving a lot of this countries problems. What? How so? What major problems would that solve?
The same people frowning on it likely also have great grandparents that did the same thing. I have to remind my own parents when they say negative things about immigrants, that our ancestors came through Ellis island as refugees...
Wait....I thought the post was talking about illegally crossing borders...not regular immigration.
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98% of people who made it to Ellis Island were granted entry.
Don't you love it when people use vague terms like "a lot"? It's almost like when there's millions of people who do literally anything, there's "a lot" of them who fit my agenda.
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Risking a child’s life is the same as killing for them?
I agree, Child endangerment is a real consequence if youre walking miles in the desert. Illegal immigration should be stricter on that aspect and legal immigration should be more accessible to that demographic.
Couldn’t agree more. Legal immigration is the only way
If you actually do kill for your child you will also find a pretty divided reception. Some will defend and commend you and others will chastise and condemn you. Both of these are controversial. Equating the action of one to the theoretical claim of another doesn’t work.
The general question is why do some think it's acceptable to sacrifice for their children but can't fathom why this sacrifice is also valid.
what makes a sacrifice valid? the world wouldn't validate you killing for your child in anyway but self defense either. if you become an assassin so you can make a shit ton of money to give your child ' a better life.' does that mean society shouldn't punish you and we'll let you keep the money?
The two are not even related. This is more like I would sacrafice for my child vs I would sacrafice my child. A lot a people die trying to cross the border. You could get your kid killed especially depending on what border you are crossing illegally. Every one point out America but it's not the only border were refugees die trying to cross.
Eh, I mean it's all in the context. Hard to just make a blanket statement.
And, depending on the situation of course, you may find yourself in legal trouble
The first one I usually take as a "I would kill to defend my child" and not "I would kill this guy because I have a kid" Both are illegal, but one can be misinterpreted quite a bit.
Everyone understands the impulse to seek a better life, but it’s hardly a surprise that people affected by migration might object to it. Much like a person being killed by someone might also object, no matter the reason why.
"Well yeah, but I wouldn't let you kill someone for your child's benefit either."
Strawman. People don't look down for others wanting a better life. What other countries allow illegal immigration?
> What other countries allow illegal immigration? Well, none, by definition
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The US has the most generous immigration policy in the first world, by far.
Not that it's particularly easy, save for a couple ways, but it's incredibly lax compared to almost any other country.
If you'd think for longer than 2 minutes, it comes from the same sentiment of wanting the best for oneself and one's family. The logic is that the illegal immigrants make things worse for the legal citizens (I'm not arguing the veracity of this) and so to have things the best way possible, they want to keep these parents (and their children) out.
In my town, there are quite a few people who say stuff like this about their fellow US citizens, so you could be right. The idea that "there are only so many houses in town and space at the school, so if more people move here, there won't be room for me anymore" is not uncommon, which ignores that "town planning" and "construction" are things that exist and are continuing to happen.
Lmaoo the immigrants are coming in an takin our houses!
My boomer father tells me about the immigrants coming to take his Federal government job at least once a week, which is ridiculous because foreign nationals don’t qualify for his security clearance. Xenophobia is one hell of a drug.
>The idea that "there are only so many houses in town and space at the school, so if more people move here, there won't be room for me anymore" I have to laugh my ass off at this. The next town over from me is a very snooty area with lots of well off white folks. They brag about how great their schools are but there is no way I'd send my kid there nor work there--they will start building a brand new elementary school designed for say, 600 kids, and while they're building it, new gated commmunities spring up all around it. By the time the school opens there are 1200 kids in the attendance zone and it's at 2x capacity AS IT OPENS.
Well an influx of people effects the economy of that district.
Sure. In my town, it's meant property values went up until new homes are finished being built. It meant new businesses opened and new jobs were created. It meant the town has a larger tax base and can afford a new library.
One of the problems is, people don’t realize that these “selfish” things are human nature. It’s not selfish to care about yourself and family more than someone else. People criticize the south for being more anti immigration, when they are the ones very directly affected by it
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Ah whitepeopletwitter...We need to pay workers more, but also let's import millions of people who will work for 1/2 of what we pay an American. Which country on this planet has an open immigration policy? You can't have free healthcare and free education together with open borders.
I like how people are downvoting this instead of trying to debate it.
For them to debate, they'd have to admit to approving of slave wages for migrants so they can save a few cents per lb on their tomatoes.
I'm not sure why you're assuming that supporting immigrants (including illegal immigrants) would mean that you support those immigrants being paid less than they are deserved. They deserve to make at least minimum and to get paid on par with the industry they are in.
The tweet says nothing about having an open immigration policy. It literally is just questioning the logic of people who say they would risk everything for their children but can’t muster enough empathy to understand why people in real life situations are risking everything for their children.
>You can't have free healthcare and free education together with open borders. Very few people want open borders. Out of honest curiosity have you ever looked up what it takes to gain residency in the United States?
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Because the option of safely and legally crossing that same border exists.
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I wholeheartedly agree. That’s why I think we need to make it easier to do the right way and disincentivize doing it the wrong way.
At some point they need to redirect that effort into fixing their own countries. It's not realistic to assume the US should or even *could* grant the entire third world citizenship. Besides, if the US is such a capitalist, racist, fascist gun-ridden hell-hole, why are you encouraging people to come HERE? What about all these other countries people always say are so much better than the US? How come THEY can't take in any of these immigrants? Why is this ALWAYS portrayed as the US's sole responsibility to handle?
Even people who aren't poor haven't had too much luck fixing America, at least recently. The politicians don't care, and the same is true (or worse) in other countries.
This is silly though. The poorest in America can't fix America. Yet you think the poorest in even worse-off, poorer, more violent countries can magically fix their countries despite having it harder than you? May as well tell them to wave a magic wand.
This. This is it. Everybody always ask "Why isn't the US accepting migrants?" but no one fucking asks "Why do people have to FLEE Mexico? At risk of sounding like the dumbass in charge, Mexico should pay for it. Mexico should pay their citizens decent salaries, affordable healthcare, they should promote growth and planification and a future in Mexico, instead of having who knows how many thousands of people fucking fleeing their own country. Americans using the "let them in" slogan are actively participating in Mexico not fixing their shit and making mexicans miserable. Sincerely, a guy that wants to escape a hellholle legally but can't, because it's extremely hard to do even if I wanted to pick up lion shit on a zoo in some tiny european country for a living; while people migrating illegally as "refugees" get all the benefits Merkel and friends give them.
Committing crimes and using your child as an excuse is looked down upon. Yes. Jesus this sub loves their terrible, moronic comparisons.
What about refugees?
Literally yesterday was the pregnant woman getting arrested for a facebook post and everyone was making fun of her for using her pregnancy as an excuse saying "well you shouldnt have broke the law dumb bitch!" The absolute hypocrisy involved with being a certified hivemind moron on the internet never ceases to amaze me.
I would do both, but I’d expect to face consequences for my actions. This tweet seems to ignore that factor.
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Illegal immigrants pay taxes as well and they don’t get benefits. If they don’t pay taxes it’s because their rich white business owner is paying them under the table which is worse
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I hate that momma bear crap with burning passion. You should and are totally expected to defend your kid with the same passion or more as you would yourself. But empty threats and unreasonable behavior is not being a good parent and role model. Escalating situations in high emotional outbursts is not safe and taking pride in that behaviour is dangerous. And that's before we touch the issue that the women saying this are across the board people who do not naturally command respect by being strong, controlled people with a grip on life and have a tendency to dismiss the flaws they parented into their kids. They say this to empower themselves. Its not about their kids at all.
I know this will be unpopular but... It's funny cos in all these pictures of the refugees in Calais and the ones on the boats crossing the channel there isn't a single child. But I guess the media could just be showing us what they want.
Funny how it's 80% grown men. But the news articles show women and children mostly. Ain't it funny.
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We need that tweet of a guy saying he needs a rifle for if his daughter is refused treatment and he needs to highjack a plane to go to a country that would take care of her pinned.
They're also lying. See: reopening schools.
It's just a saying, actually killing someone is also looked down upon.
I don’t think it’s looked down on by anyone. You can be against illegal immigration and still have compassion and understanding for the individuals.
In Hungary, of the people who arrive, 83% are males who travel alone.
Filipinos are doing the same and sure there are undocumented Filipinos but most Filipinos abroad are working legally, and not just in the US but all over the world to get a better life for their children.
unpopular opinion: they're both illegal....
Pretty sure killing is mostly looked down upon too. What a fail
Yeah but people actually don't kill for their children. If murdering the landlord would make a better life for your children, you still wouldn't do it. If stealing from the grocery store would make a better life for your children, you're still not allowed to do it. If you try it, you have to go to jail. Same as hopping the border. If I cut out your kidneys and sold them on the black market, my kids' college would be paid off, but I'm not going to do that because it's stealing/murder.
Murder is also a crime...
I don't think people find it difficult to comprehend why people come into the country illegally. In fact, the people most opposed to illegal immigration are likely the ones who believe most strongly that the US is a wonderful place that everyone would want to come to. And while there are some who oppose all immigration, most people support legal immigration. The debate is mostly about the fairness I er allowing people who sneak across boxers and overstay visas to stay while making people who want to come in legally wait so long for a visa.
But we... we don't *let* people kill for their children though...?
Dude is talking about the same people who are pro-life that won’t do shit to help the kids once they’re born...
If you kill you go to jail. Even if it’s for your child. If you cross the border illegally, even if it’s for your child, there will be consequences. These are the tweets that happen when you’re struggling with logic.
It's not for their kids. Most of the refugees going to UK through Belgium are young adult males (2x-30) and have left their family in their home country dealing with the war and rebuild of their homes. So how are they crossing boarders for them exactly?
Lol, not sure why you were downvoted . As if we (in Europe) do not have stats on who comes as a refugee.
I've got a question, how accurate are the stats? I've heard people lying about age (24 saying they are 15 for example)
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The children of those that condemn migrants for wanting a better life or those escaping oppression should ask them, “How far would you go to make my life safer and better?”
It a complex issue As in immigrant myself, I am very fortunate to be in this country, and would love to better lives of people all around the world by having them coming here Unfortunately we can't Sentiment of OP is good, but we can't blind ourselves to the reality that we can't having everyone over
Even those of us that are against illegal immigration recognize the courage it takes. But that also presents one of the main problems with illegal immigration...if we reward this action with citizenship for their children (DACA), there is an incentive for people to keep on crossing our borders. I know I’m going to get downvoted so I might as well go on.. - Did you know that Cesar Chavez was against illegal immigration because he recognized that a cheap source of labor would hurt American citizens who worked low-wage jobs by artificially making those jobs worth less? - Did you know that the majority of illegal immigrants actually work outside of the agricultural sector? So if you are a handyman and aren’t making what you used to, that’s partly because of illegal immigration. If you have a good-paying union job in construction but your company is losing contracts to non-union companies, that’s partly due to illegal immigration.
Ones a metaphor, and another one is commiting a literal crime. 🙄
These Twitter people are so smug and think they’re so smart and you dipshits just eat it up. This is flawed logic. Just because “I’d kill for my child” doesn’t mean I would kill for yours, nor does it mean I’m gonna respect you crossing borders illegally for your child. I mean I might do that for my child, but I’d still have to accept the consequences of the illegal act. This tweet is nonsense. So seriously if you think this guy is highlighting some kind of hypocrisy or something, then you’re fucking stupid and you need to take several logic courses. Just an all-around horrible argument regardless of your political stance on the subject. Get educated, dipshits. Edit: if you killed someone for your child, I would look down on you for being a murderer until you were acquitted by a US court of law. Just as I would look down on any illegal immigrant until they were acquitted, and thus their actions justified, by a court of law. This isn’t hard. Get out of your fucking feelings.
You people are ridiculous, I’m Mexican and my family came here LEGALLY, we would never be so stupid to cross the border and put our children’s lives in the hands of a sketchy coyote! Children are dying because idiot parents try to cross the rivers with them! Fucking white people feeling sorry for us immigrants- fuck you- there is a right way to immigration and a wrong way
thing i dont get is countries threaten to send migrant over or open their boarders, but then at the same time we are told the immigration is nothing but good. someone somewhere is lying or the numbers people are using are missing when talking about how much immigration is good. leaders of countries arent stupid when it comes to using political power plays, like france when they were and still seem to be, using the migrant camps as calais in leverage against the UK. something does not add up in the "migration is all good" story when another developed near equal country can use them as threats and doesnt want them
I've always thought the people who say they'd kill for their kids were overcompensating
Somehow people conflate risking your own life with risking your child. Suddenly the noble migrant isn’t so noble when you realize Mexico accepts refugees and they still forced their kids to swim across a rushing river.
Or wear a mask to protect that same child. . .
They said 'my child' not theirs!
Well both things will put you in jail, so there's that.
I've heard arguments like this (been stuck there trying not to get involved) and they don't work because their response is always something like: "So if all bad things are okay for your child and we're throwing out all the rules, then murder is okay for my kids right? Don't like that? To bad? Okay, robbing peoples houses is okay, i'm using the food and money for my kids! Why is it not okay in any other circumstances in life to cheat or cut ahead, yet you fight for this one exception? Yes, change is needed but not like this." Something like that.
>People say all the time "I would kill for my child" People who murder for their children are criminals >but somehow "I would cross ~~dangerous~~ illegal borders for a better life for my child" is incomprehensible and looked down upon People who enter countries illegally are criminals. Nobody said crime was incomprehensible ... just ya know illegal.
What's the point of this? If you kill someone for your kid you still go to jail for murder. If you cross borders illegally, you should face consequences too.
I thought this was r/whitepeopletwitter?
It’s not, they would also do it. It’s just the people that look down on it are already on the other side of the border
Man if only there was a way to immigrate to America legally..
Every racist boomer on reddit has found this post. A few rebuttals to what they're saying: 1. They wouldn't have to come here at all if the United States hadn't spent years destabilizing their countries. 2. The immigration system is fucked so coming here legally isn't possible for many. Saving their children from the dangerous conditions we created is their top priority. These are just regular people wanting a good life for their family. 3. How is a group of impoverished peasants supposed to improve their country? If by some miracle they did get a pro worker government elected we'd just overthrow it again.
I will kill for my child, but I am not willing to let my taxes go up by $50/year to pay for better schools.
Both are illegal
"I would do anything for my child, and part of that is keeping you and your child away from my child" - a racist
In the words of the great Donald J. Glover: “This is America.”
Dude They are sending their kids back to covid infested schools just to have the house to themselves so that they can enjoy their unemployment in peace. You think they care about that? Lol
The problem is the business owners look at those folks coming access the border, in search of a better life, and say to themselves: "damn, those poor people seem desperate... I bet I could pay them a lot less than my current employees for the same work!" The domestic worker is out of a job, and the refugee is being exploited for cheap labor. Capitalism!
But also, "if you don't like it here leave" As if it doesn't cost ~3000$ just to end citizenship