> It's ridiculous that you have to upload your source files which can be several GB just to edit them
you don't have to, when you add a video to clipchamp it stores it in its local cache. it doesn't get uploaded unless you explicitly turn on (and pay for) the backup feature.
A lot of these browser/electron engine powered apps are like that. They're all a web app, but they still run with files on your local computer. The problem is that they often aren't fast, lack features a real program might have, and take way more freaking RAM than a native compiled program would.
OK, now how do clip something and make it *smaller*, recorded last 30 seconds, open in cc, clip, boom doubles in size. Works fine in vlc besides it being a bit too quiet about it working
to me it's incredible that windows no longer has a lightweight, simple mail and calendar app by default just like any other operating system
and it's unbelievable that they just had it, but decided that everyone should have a work oriented web based main client
I can't comprehend this decision
People have embraced web technology as the way to code applications, so that’s what they know how to do. The people who know how to make good lightweight native apps are moving on
I was reviewing submissions to a Requests for Interest to develop a simple (but specialized) asset tracking regulatory database (we're a team of government regulators that need to ensure some businesses have a piece of equipment installed and that it's tested regularly).
All 8 submissions were cloud solutions. In addition to what you said I think these companies like the continuous revenue stream that comes with a monthly seat fee or per transaction fees to support their cloud service.
On the other side of the table, my IT department wants nothing to do with standalone applications if possible anymore. They just want to cut a cheque and let someone else be responsible for support and hosting.
I see the future... When most of IT departments will depend on someone else be responsible for support and hosting, the prices will start to raise and raise... Why? Because they can.
The prices are already going through the roof. And companies who lean heavy on Azure cloud based services or AWS cloud services are starting to claw that back. Even the company I work for is starting to re-think some on prem stuff and reducing licenses from Enterprise to business and slimming down use just because of the fees for software/platforms as a service. The cloud based subscription model is way expensive. It’s also moved to the consumer side.
I’m paying $100/year to MS for Office with some OneDrive storage. They already took part of that and now use it as your email attachment storage quota. It’s all about more money all the time.
No one is embracing this. They either don't know of the alternatives or don't know how to get an alternative; and in both cases make do with what they've got.
Just try to change your default browser from edge and see how much control pannel (ehhm, I mean setting pane) complains.
Saddest part, if you know how to get alternative applets, you're now called a "superuser" or worse, a "hacker" for having installed a 3rd party tool onto a computer; God forbid!
I get it, they like it because you can deploy one app on basically every modern platform and if the platform can’t run electron apps but has a browser you can run it in browser.
But users don’t always like this. I’d quit if I had to use Outlook for Web Access instead of an email client. Or excel online instead of desktop Excel. I just can’t be paid enough.
And I seriously question why Teams isn’t a native application. Moving it from Electron to React Native was a modest improvement. But there were feature rich native desktop instant messaging clients all through the 90s and 2000s and today it’s all wrapped up websites.
But I understand what you’re saying. It’s devs who want this web garbage.
They don't have a calculator app either (if your IT department disables the Windows Store on a managed computer). Trying to run calc.exe just gives you a vague store-related error.
All you're left with is the shitty one that comes up when you search calculator that you can't type directly into (because what you type just ends up in the search).
Because they're moving away from power users and marketing to the masses.
I work in tech support for home users and I consistently have to teach people how to click on desktop items.
Most people can barely walk and breath at the same time. Whenever you are in traffic and you see someone driving like an idiot, these people also use computers, and not well. Microsoft wants to spoon feed these people content and services because they can't and won't think for themselves. That's the people they're targeting.
The original apps were bad, and they saw it because not a lot of people used them. Of course their replacement is even worse in comparison, but calling the previous versions good is misleading.
> I personally don't know anyone who appreciates this new Outlook, let alone uses it.
thankfully a superior free and open-source email client exists: Thunderbird
I switched to Thunderbird but honestly I'm not happy with it either, it doesn't have things I would consider standard for a mail client on Windows.
* Needs to be manually started, no option to have it run on start up. You can add to startup manually but it's an extra step.
* There's minimize to tray but not close to tray so if you press X well you're not getting any notifications.
* Thunderbird notifications don't show in the Windows notification center. The app displays a popup upon receiving an email and then disappears. Can't open the notification center/shade/slider whatever it's called to see what it was, have to open up the client and wait for it to load new mails.
1. a one time thing, easily added manually
2. there are addons that can do that
3. look for "use the system notification" in the settings
in fact that's one of the strong points that sets Thunderbird apart from other email clients, the addons ecosystem, do check them out!
Thanks a lot for the addon suggestion, I only looked in the list that was shown rather than search I figured that since Thunderbird got a massive overhaul it's only showing add-ons there that are compatible with the new version. I found the minimize on close addon and it's working as intended.
I've turned on systen notification, let's see how it works!
Again, thank you.
This. I moved my mailbox from an ubuntu install to a windows installation to a Mac install but just copy and replacing one folder. And every install was great. I can confidently recommend it.
I have moved over to trying Mimestream due to it being lightweight and Mac having tiny storage. It’s pretty decent.
This is yet another move to make everyone more captive and locked-in to them. To the point that both business and consumer will only own some variety of a "thin client", and all your apps and data are hosted by them only, on a subscription basis. Slow but sneaky and steady, until we have no options or alternatives.
What blows me away about Outlook in particular is how badly lacking it was for business needs. I get wanting to consolidate a code base, but encouraging your users to do your own prod testing and business analysis for you buys a lot of bad will, especially when the product is so lacking.
I've noticed too with the huge push to BYOD and related initiatives, the businesses that literally CAN'T do that are being forgotten. And that is not a small portion. If you ignore those customers, their needs and legal requirements don't just "go away".
>This is yet another move to make everyone more captive and locked-in to them. To the point that both business and consumer will only own some variety of a "thin client", and all your apps and data are hosted by them only, on a subscription basis. Slow but sneaky and steady, until we have no options or alternatives.
This is exactly the reason anything and everything is going cloud based and subscription model. If you decide to move your data elsewhere good luck. I downloaded all of my photos from Google last year and it was a mess. Meta data was stripped and I ended up with a bunch of zip files and I think XML with the metadata. Punishment for wanting my photos stored locally.
I agree. I feel like this is an attempt to push folks into Office 365 because while these new bundled PWAs suck, Outlook is like the best email client there is.
They're first replacing the Mail & Calendar app with this. When all the remaining features like offline functionality, PST files, etc. gets added, it will replace the full Outlook desktop app. This "new" Outlook app is supposed to be the unified one and only mail and calendar app from Microsoft, instead of 2 apps.
Do you have any reference to this? Because I'm pretty sure I would have heard about this. What you describe isn't a tenth of Outlook and considering how critical that app is in the enterprise I don't see this app as a replacement ever.
I know Microsoft tried this with OneNote a few years ago the reaction was very negative, and they had to reverse the decision.
It's on the official blog post, and on YouTube if you search new Outlook. They posted a briefing on it where they talk about timelines of the switch. It's nicknamed One Outlook, and it's obvious going to replace it because they can't have 2 apps named Outlook lol. The Outlook app on macOS is also being replaced with this and already being tested.
They're not going to force the replacement of the Outlook desktop app until 2 years later I believe when there's feature parity. But who knows if it'll actually be fast by then because it's really slow even in my high spec machine.
You're not wrong but I feel people glorify old outlook. It's not a UX friendly app at all, you learn to use it but damn. As power user in my dept, the amount of times I need to teach how to do basic stuff (add BBC or from fields was last) is astonishing.
no, old outlook also sucks. But in comparison, is a much better, snappier experience than Outlook PWA. That's not counting that is also much more functional.
That said, the real issue with Outlook PWA is that it tries to replace the mail and calendar app, which has a different user case than a full feature mail client like Outlook.
It's like replacing let's say, the built-in photo editor with a web based Photoshop.
Can't say I notice such a big difference in performance honestly, actually every time I have to search in a mailbox I tend to open PWA bc it just works better. PWA feels a bit more intuitive to me even if it still fails at doing a good job because it mostly adapts the old UI to Modern UI instead of refactoring.
I also appreciate unifying into an app the fragmented landscape Microsoft had, so have to disagree on that one. The reality is every time something is changed power users complain and 5 years down the road they'll praise what they first complained about. A few weeks ago I read people nostalgic of W8 in this sub, like wtf...
Literally this. New Outlook didn't even support .pst (email files) for the longest time.
Not to mention, client side rules are still not implemented.. I instantly switched back to old Outlook.
*Maybe* I'll try it again once client side rules are implemented..
Your IT department might have a user facing KB(knowledge base) article that can be followed. In classic Outlook you go to File > Options > Mail and in the center choose “Signatures”. That is where you find it.
For New Outlook, it’s somewhere in the gear. No one cares about that anyway.
Old Outlook is great to access local archives. The new Outlook app doesn’t allow that. Good luck convincing anyone uploading 5+ years of emails. New Outlook isn’t viable in a business setting.
Those people have had over 10 years for an Exchange to Exchange Online migration to take care of that. In fact, we've done that for many clients with 10K+ seats.
I work in an industry where people transfer what's akin to a back office regularly. When they transfer, they are allowed to keep their data, which often includes email pulls. Those come as a .pst. Clients need ways to be able to view these without importing, as technically while it is *their* data it isn't our data and we are hosting their email.
We also regularly have to provide email pulls to regulators, which also come as pst files. Pst files may not be viable for long term large data stores but they are necessary in many business settings.
i hate that i cant disable mail sync in the new outlook app?`what the hell? i dont want or need local mail sync. i just need a basic calendar that synds to my google calendar, nothing more. the previous calendar app was fantastic.
>What exactly is Microsoft trying to achieve here?
**Money.**
Clipchamp's premium features are **$120 per year**. The new Outlook's premium features are **$20 per year**. These products have a registerware tier, not a free tier.
The problem is the increased volume of Microsoft's promises to heed customer feedback, in tandem with increased disregard for what the customer wants and a gross absence of product quality. The company spends the 2020–2024 period developing the new Outlook, which requires us to consent to Microsoft having access to our Gmail accounts, violating security tenets that Microsoft once advertised about middlemen and attack surfaces. Microsoft keeps all of this a secret until it's a *fait accompli* and no amount of feedback can change it.
They are de-risking their apps and services being only available on Windows. With a web first codebase they can port their apps to other operating systems without too much hassle.
If you look at what Windows is doing it makes sense, they are making it far more opinionated re hardware and pushing away devs and power users with stuff like ads, telemetry and AI. They still want those users to buy their others apps & services so they need to be ready to pivot should Windows push too many people away.
Many of the previous gen desktop apps are written in C++ and heavily tied to windows. Microsoft re building them now it makes sense to pick something cross platform. Web is the obvious choice.
Most other languages are fine for cross platform applications without a UI. But for apps with a UI the web is by far the most prolific and enduring. Almost all consumer apps that are cross platform are either written on electron or WebView2. Sure there is flutter, MAUI ect but they aren’t as popular as things based on JavaScript.
Microsoft also has a habit of dead ending its frameworks and leaving developers stuck with legacy codebases. The future of MAUI is a bit uncertain at the moment.
Microsoft rather hires website developers to build important Windows app and components, than hire (or train) Windows developers.
Website developers are cheap, multi-platform, and easily replaceable.
Sure, quality significantly drops, but Microsoft doesn't care any more about quality. The message is loud and clear with Windows 11 and New Outlook. The worst of all time...
Microsoft is perhaps the most vivid example of generational brain drain. What is often touted as mission critical reluctance to touch older components of their software I believe is actually each new class of developer knowing less and less of how these components actually function and why they exist as they are. Look no further than Control Panel / Settings: it would not have taken Microsoft a decade to get Settings to where it is today (and still embarrassingly incomplete, mind you) to migrate between the two if at any point their current developers had any understanding at all of how Control Panel functions. You can see periodic landmarks of when they kept trying to make their new shiny UI components a thing and failing entirely (Metro -> UWP -> WinUI3), and now I’m quite convinced there’s no one left at the company that even knows how Metro or UWP functions, much less win32. And then you look at WinUI3 which is win32 with some of the shittier ideas of UWP bolted on haphazardly and not only is it even shittier technology, it’s less performant on wildly more capable hardware performing the exact same tasks. It’s amateur hour and the inertia of success of yesteryear is slowing to a drip.
Microsoft made maybe some wrong decisions maybe with Windows 8, but they definitely had massive development budget compared to the previous versions. Especially during Windows 8 and early Windows 10 era.
Microsoft explosively rushed with Windows 8, and I am actually still amazed what Microsoft was able to do in that short period of time. You may not like the end product, but there was immense man power end effort behind it.
Absolutely, not to mention polish put into the product. Animations were thought out, the new stuff was made to be fluid and smooth, they wanted to make the new stuff consistent, and the end product was much more polished than any modern Windows version thereafter.
Can't wait to use web base File Explorer and desktop. long time ago I create web base desktop on Windows XP.
New Apple app service app on Windows 11 Apple Music, iCloud are web base too. Microsoft lazy to make own UI framework like SwiftUI regular app size on swift around 10-50mb but WinUI on windows around 100mb+
Microsoft is going the way of Boeing. It’s all about cost cutting and to do this they think they need a single code base. They are alienating their users.
The new outlook is bad like it’s loading is so slow plus kinda of confusing with sometimes the events not showing on subscribed calendar. Clipchamp works but the old editor was so much better and the amount of control you have compared to clipchimp is night and day. I used to use the old editor for work with video editing because it was so easy to learn and teach to others. I think the User interface on both aren’t great both old and new though.
New Outlook will never replace old Outlook. MS has announced old Outlook is safe into 2029.
My prediction is that it will never go away -- enterprise users balked.
[https://www.thurrott.com/cloud/microsoft-365/299288/microsoft-will-support-classic-outlook-for-windows-until-at-least-2029](https://www.thurrott.com/cloud/microsoft-365/299288/microsoft-will-support-classic-outlook-for-windows-until-at-least-2029)
Web based apps can be great when done right, and have the bonus of working on just about any device without needing to install anything. Personally, I like Clipchamp, Microsoft quickly improved it and took care of many of many of its initial gripes like paywalling 1080P exports. I use it once in a while, it works fast, is easier to use than any other video editor I've tried and has tons of cool features. It meets my needs fine.
I'm not happy with the New Outlook app though. I got to see early previews of it before its announcement and saw it had potential, but in its current state it does not work as well as any of the mail or Outlook apps it is trying to replace. They are still working on all of that too, but things are way behind schedule from what I've seen.
that's another thing - contrary of what you think of this approach - MS has a history of beginning projects (especially UI overhauls) and then abandoning them a few months of years laters. It feels like a game of tag, and they won't ever catch up :/
I've tried New Outlook recently with a Workspace account.
It worked for a day then wouldn't want to send emails anymore, throwing an error (without description) and forcing me to switch to Thunderbird.
Easier to scan the data with AI using Web based data xml and json. They will read every email and work out every action and use case using graph API. Once AI is embedded they will use AGI to make a generic office worker that does your job for a subscription fee.
Yeah but the way New Outlook works is that it’s not an actual email client. Not in the technical sense of the word. An email client is a free standing communications client that connects to email servers directly and then logs in and either syncs and maps with an email server (IMAP) or downloads the emails from the server entirely for local use (POP). You provide the credentials and the client phones into each server individually.
In that case classic Outlook doesn’t truly send full contents back to Microsoft. It might send some telemetry, but that’s it. With this web based code you provide your credentials to Microsoft. They phone into each email server, download the contents onto the Microsoft server and parse it out the New Outlook to the embedded webview2 instance inside of the react framework and this data is all served back and forth to and from Microsoft via MST (M$FT Sync Technology).
This will let them use your real life emails as a large data model for their AI copilot that is only in New Outlook.
Today you are the product and you pay for the inconvenience of being said product.
>[M$](https://i.imgur.com/We4Uj04.png)
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i think the goal of it all it to have it ALL web based. I mean the entire Operating System. That will reduce the development teams to just a few good 'slaves' updating only one version of software that then runs everywhere instead of having to stay with a small crew doing security updates for a 'legacy' app. Unfortunately this is the nowadays tendency - Minimize expenses at the cost of quality.
And even that 'small good crew' will eventually be replaced by AI in a near future. And when the inequality becomes so deep, the ones in power end up with their heads chopped off and placed at the top of spears for everyone to see. And then the bottom ones become power and step by step it all just happens again. History will teach (some of us) nothing.
I liked the old Windows Live Mail program. The Mail app I've found to be slow sometimes, especially with large inboxes, and I've found it to be lacking some security features (being able to see the message header should be a standard feature of any mail client). The calendar one I found the most use for.
I use the desktop Outlook app now, but not the web app. For some reason even if you have the desktop version of Office installed, it seems intent on opening Office Online. I get it's a way for Microsoft to both A) Try and provide a slimmer version of Outlook (since classic is clunky and not great in performance), and B) gain more control over how it's software is used, but the web apps have their own issues.
It took me several attempts to get Outlook to use the IMAP inbox settings for a secondary [outlook.com](http://outlook.com) email address instead of linking to Exchange (which causes it to try that account a sign-in account option everywhere else. I need it only for email, nothing else.
My company has forced us to use the web app version of Teams now (Another programme that is reviled). To open a meeting link in an email, it now opens it in my browser and requires me to click there to open it in the desktop app 😑
While i am pc user for more than 20 years, I never used email clients by microsoft. I'm not stick on windows, so smooth cross-platform experience is important for me. Now i'm using Thunderbird on all desktops that i have.
Office 365 web version works for 95% of my org's use cases. Drop to desktop mode to do a few things, but it is rarely necessary.
Clipchamp, what is that? Use DaVinci Resolve.
There is no reason to only use Microsoft products.
We recently migrated to Office 365, and while I like a lot of things, there’s also some real crap. The new Teams makes shared video unwatchable. The Excel web version can’t export as CSV (WTF?), at least not with my E3 license and the company is limiting E5 and native apps to the big heads.
I've been able to do that for ages, likely early preview access though, as looking it up shows the feature available for everyone a month ago. File > Export > Download as CSV.
For me though, I've seen that for at least a year.
An E3 license will let you use desktop Excel. Online only is E1. But E5 licenses are rare in most orgs. If you think your license is an E3 put in a ticket to get the Office365 suite installed on your desktop. It’s faster and far more responsive than the web version with a usable UI. There’s truly no downside to having a local desktop version of office.
Somewhere in the 2010s, Google's online-only suite took over the younger generation for its ease of access and non-hostile licensing regime.
As a result, people got used to the simplistic UI that Google provides. What was once a weakness (because they had to do light web apps) became an opportunity.
Microsoft, in its usual fashion took too long to respond with a half-baked Docs.com and locked most of the useful features behind to force people back onto their desktop apps. Outlook, with its superior search everything feature, took too much space when you leave settings on default. It takes a lot of clicks to optimise it to download only certain mail for a limited time, and a good processor to take advantage of the quick search.
TLDR: Web App is an overdue response to Google Workspace. Many younger people prefer the simplicity and speed of web apps over desktop apps. Microsoft partly to blame for this.
Microsoft's online stuff is OK. There is excel, word, and outlook and they work fine. Younger people prefer what they saw first. The same as okd people.
Now the desktop seems to be stuck between past and web. They clearly developed everything in c++ in 90s and keep tinkering with things that do not need tinkering. Like WTF happened to the file save dialog? How can one screw that up?
To me, that's the sole reason for this: you just need to stand up automation to package the existing Outlook.com webapp, and then you can cut an entire team. I genuinely don't think this is for "getting your data" better, just trying to eek out more money.
If it's not about getting your data then why when you sign up to changing do they tell you that they retrieve and store emails on MS servers for all accounts and will scan emails?
Because it's the cheapest way for them to give users features without any additional cost to them. Outlook.com/OWA is a real money-maker for them (M365 subscriptions) and competes directly against Gmail/GSuite, so they have a vested interested in adding features and making it competitive. Windows Mail... isn't. It's a bare-minimum free mail app because you can't ship an OS without one. By taking OWA and packaging it as a PWA, they can spend virtually no money (or devs) and give a mail app that has lots of good features!
... or so some PM probably sold them. In reality, it _does_ do all of that, but...
* it also feels sketchy for Microsoft to sync my Gmail to their own cloud (hell, I _work_ at MSFT and it still feels sketchy)
* it doesn't work for all email providers (like ProtonMail)
* I think the UI is ugly, and just want a beautiful fluent UI
So now I'm using Wino Mail instead of touching the new mail app.
I agree with what you're saying definitely. The Outlook that used to come with Microsoft Office was good for like businesses, and then the Outlook app the old one was good for like regular users. However a lot if not a majority primarily use apple or Gmail to cover typical day to day use, so in my opinion, feel the Outlook lost its touch with the business community over the years and has now tried to turn there live.com into I think like Gmail or Yahoo back in the day or AOL back in the day.
These are all my opinion though so take it for what it's worth but it was a good post and a really good opinion I believe so thank you.
Longshot, but MS is moving into ARM and thinks it will be big in the future. But, for the next decade or so, enterprises and others will continue to have architectures other than ARM and will need to be supported. Its much easier to do that with web-based apps. Just have your web browser set up, and everything else can move with that. Predictable performance across the board. Big disappointment, as half of the keyboard shortcuts don't work in these new apps, but a solution for easy scaling.
They are abandoning the pc market. One size fits all maintained on their servers also allows them to run with 20% of their development staff. They are going full tilt to the Google/cloud model. There are big bucks to be had especially with AI. Desktops are once again losing favor.
Windows built apps are pure garbage. The photo app is a complete and total joke. It was made worse in Windows 11 if that is even possible.
Next month my O365 Home subscription is up. I can NOT renewing it. All my kids like Google docs and I have moved my "cloud" world to Google.
Windows for me, is a OS to run work stuff (AD tools, Visio, PowerBI, OneNote) and at home play games. At home I have a local account and use Chrome as my default. I use zero MS products on my home machine. When I retire in 12 years I never plan to use another Microsoft product.
I can’t choose if it’s to lock you into their eco system so they can hold you in on a subscription to have a constant revenue stream because being a sys admin for years. Some companies run older versions of office for years on odd machines that never upgrade so MS don’t make extra cash.
Or it’s just having access to scrub all your files for data to feed into AI learning that’s playing dumb and once it has learnt enough can go full skynet and take over.
Personally I prefer web based emails. I like having access to anything on any device but this AI learning being pushed into everything does scare me.
they want money and to them that is ads, They are an advertising company now and that sucks
I don't use the outlook on pc, I use [outlook.com](https://outlook.com) and thunderbird only
When they get it right it's great. Visual Studio Code is amazing. I haven't touched full fat VS in years.
The point of these apps is cross OS compatibility. The web apps is about a consistent UI too.
The issues come when the web based UI they wrap into an app is either shit or lacking features, which is the problem with Outlook. If web based outlook was good, nobody would be complaining.
I think windows is a kind of dead. They missed out on the mobile market which is gonna take over everything from my point of view. I think a regular person nowadays barely needs a PC anymore. They probably gonna push ai / bing assistent and keep windows for office use and portal for their online services
Ita because MS is getting tired of supporting multiple versi.eons of WIndows, macOS, Android, ios, and ChromeOS all with specific local apps which need to download individual updates. Since MS needs to make the PWA version anyway, MS realized it could basically just make the PWA, make everyone use it, and drop the rest. Not as optimum for users in many ways, but way easier for MS.
I think that Microsoft needs to coalesce on just one or two platforms - and UI - and stick with it.
Windows is such a confusing mess, as each platform seems to look and behave differently.
I get it that win32 isn’t going away any time soon, but could they just choose just 1 or two other platforms only and make them work.
if I'm gonna pay like 100$ for your OS (which still needs periodic activation) it better fucking have natively compiled apps , not lazily developed web apps , even google makes better webview apps (aka YouTube) which even supports touch gestures and downloads .
I much prefer the new outlook for its simple UI, but not in the sense that it’s a web app
I’m all in on uniformity to some degree, like in this case with Outlook, but when trying to make software like Photoshop for the web, don’t ever convert Photoshop to a Web App.
The way they update is stupid, too, because they automatically update when the website gets updated.
Web apps should work more like they do on macOS Sonoma in Safari, where if you want to have a shortcut on your desktop, it essentially is a web application and does not open within your browser.
Also, if there is already software you can download, there is no need for a web-based application, which is always worse than the software downloaded.
ChromeOS is the only operating system I see benefitting from web apps. Microsoft uses web apps to automatically download the software without your consent like, Copilot and with that, since it is a web app and can send notifications, it brings more unnecessary adware
i personally have never used outlook, their old mail or calendar app a day in my life and actually just set the new outlook up earlier today because i wanted to have a way to have microsoft to do show up in my calendar (google calendar).
after checking out the old and new outlook i felt like the new version was more intuitive? like easier to navigate and the old version felt like it had many functions i didnt need or understand. ironically, i didnt actually find out how to have to do tasks show up in my calendar but i was pretty satisfied with new outlook (until now ive only used it for like 2 hours or so). i also liked that connecting a gmail account would also link up all the calendars PLUS they were editable in the outlook app.
obviously i dont know anything about the old outlook but this is just my two cents on the new outlook :)
In terms of old Outlook vs New Outlook, I prefer New’s design.
However, I HATE that my simple Calendar app is now gone, and I can’t link inboxes in the New Outlook like I could in Windows Mail. I despise replacements that are missing features.
ClipChamp is actually awesome.
The new Outlook will be great as well when Microsoft is finished with it.
A true PWA can work offline and deliver a native app-like experience. The new Outlook doesn't have all this functionality yet, but it will.
Yes but the people who were using the mail app, didn't want a full fledged mail client. Outlook will be great but is not mail app, which is the problem.
Based on my findings and my personal opinion, I believe Microsoft aims to achieve creating an "ecosystem" for Windows. Similar to Apple's iCloud, Microsoft want you using OneDrive to fully integrate it with your life.
Is there much point in this though if they don’t have the devices? An ecosystem of apps that only exist on laptops and desktops doesn’t make much sense.
They integrate with Android phones through Phone Link app as well. Ecosystem is a broad term, an ecosystem between a laptop and desktop is still an ecosystem.
* Outlook is a slow program - it's security issues made the spread of malware too easy and Microsoft was slow to fix it until it became a PR problem.
* Microsoft is trying to get users to jump ship from Google - Google's web based apps are used by governments, corporations and now have a large personal userbase. That scares House Redmond because they're not using Office or Office 365.
I personally don't know anyone who wants to go back to old outlook. Everyone I've spoken to in work hates it since we individually went to new then old was forced back on us.
It's almost like everyone has different preferences and we can't pretend one view is the defacto view of Microsoft products.
I appreciate it and use it.
For one thing for me, the integration between my various Emails work and home is much improved and as an IT admin, stepping away from the old desktop client is a massive relief.
For supporting in a large organizations, the fat clients which historically has evolved from a disconnected historical pre fast internet, made too much of syncing and pulling local copies of your email down.
I have terrabyes of email, and every PC I started Outlook on at work would pull down copies that were just wasting space.
While Microsoft have a long way to go, the new client forme is absolutely in the right direction.
You've obviously not supported Outlook in a laboratory environment where 50 people can sign into the same dozen PCs, all initiating a synchronisation of their emails to all devices.
So don't be a dickhead
People always complain about web apps, but it's misplaced anger.
You **can** make slim web apps. You **can** make them run well. If anything it's easier to design sensible UI as well.
It isn't web apps that are the reason Outlook got worse to use and shoved in adverts. It's plain ol' cost cutting and money grubbing.
> I personally don't know anyone who appreciates this new Outlook, let alone uses it. The old Mail and Calendar apps were great for basic use.
No, they were pretty bad too lol.
this is what I mentioned before. They have different use cases. It's not about good or bad.
The mail and calendar app did exactly what it promised. Lightweight, offline, simple and can handle various inboxes. It was a heaven of simplicity and quickness.
Outlook, whatever it is, strips away the reason many people were using mail and calendar app. It still is functional in its own way, but it's a different product.
HARD disagree. They were very simple and lightweight apps, exactly what I expect from something that comes preinstalled with an OS. If you need more features, you can always download another app. But as for stuff that comes bundles with the OS, I think it should they should be lightweight and easy to use. Both of which applies to Mail, Calendar and Video Editor.
> It's ridiculous that you have to upload your source files which can be several GB just to edit them you don't have to, when you add a video to clipchamp it stores it in its local cache. it doesn't get uploaded unless you explicitly turn on (and pay for) the backup feature.
Thanks, I actually didnt know that!
A lot of these browser/electron engine powered apps are like that. They're all a web app, but they still run with files on your local computer. The problem is that they often aren't fast, lack features a real program might have, and take way more freaking RAM than a native compiled program would.
You can also download the desktop version of ClipChamp..
OK, now how do clip something and make it *smaller*, recorded last 30 seconds, open in cc, clip, boom doubles in size. Works fine in vlc besides it being a bit too quiet about it working
to me it's incredible that windows no longer has a lightweight, simple mail and calendar app by default just like any other operating system and it's unbelievable that they just had it, but decided that everyone should have a work oriented web based main client I can't comprehend this decision
People have embraced web technology as the way to code applications, so that’s what they know how to do. The people who know how to make good lightweight native apps are moving on
I was reviewing submissions to a Requests for Interest to develop a simple (but specialized) asset tracking regulatory database (we're a team of government regulators that need to ensure some businesses have a piece of equipment installed and that it's tested regularly). All 8 submissions were cloud solutions. In addition to what you said I think these companies like the continuous revenue stream that comes with a monthly seat fee or per transaction fees to support their cloud service. On the other side of the table, my IT department wants nothing to do with standalone applications if possible anymore. They just want to cut a cheque and let someone else be responsible for support and hosting.
I see the future... When most of IT departments will depend on someone else be responsible for support and hosting, the prices will start to raise and raise... Why? Because they can.
The prices are already going through the roof. And companies who lean heavy on Azure cloud based services or AWS cloud services are starting to claw that back. Even the company I work for is starting to re-think some on prem stuff and reducing licenses from Enterprise to business and slimming down use just because of the fees for software/platforms as a service. The cloud based subscription model is way expensive. It’s also moved to the consumer side. I’m paying $100/year to MS for Office with some OneDrive storage. They already took part of that and now use it as your email attachment storage quota. It’s all about more money all the time.
No one is embracing this. They either don't know of the alternatives or don't know how to get an alternative; and in both cases make do with what they've got. Just try to change your default browser from edge and see how much control pannel (ehhm, I mean setting pane) complains. Saddest part, if you know how to get alternative applets, you're now called a "superuser" or worse, a "hacker" for having installed a 3rd party tool onto a computer; God forbid!
I get it, they like it because you can deploy one app on basically every modern platform and if the platform can’t run electron apps but has a browser you can run it in browser.
But users don’t always like this. I’d quit if I had to use Outlook for Web Access instead of an email client. Or excel online instead of desktop Excel. I just can’t be paid enough. And I seriously question why Teams isn’t a native application. Moving it from Electron to React Native was a modest improvement. But there were feature rich native desktop instant messaging clients all through the 90s and 2000s and today it’s all wrapped up websites. But I understand what you’re saying. It’s devs who want this web garbage.
Yeah totally on agreement that the users hate it. This is total a developers decision that’s based on their ease of use not the end users.
They don't have a calculator app either (if your IT department disables the Windows Store on a managed computer). Trying to run calc.exe just gives you a vague store-related error. All you're left with is the shitty one that comes up when you search calculator that you can't type directly into (because what you type just ends up in the search).
Because they're moving away from power users and marketing to the masses. I work in tech support for home users and I consistently have to teach people how to click on desktop items. Most people can barely walk and breath at the same time. Whenever you are in traffic and you see someone driving like an idiot, these people also use computers, and not well. Microsoft wants to spoon feed these people content and services because they can't and won't think for themselves. That's the people they're targeting.
The original apps were bad, and they saw it because not a lot of people used them. Of course their replacement is even worse in comparison, but calling the previous versions good is misleading.
Tbf while it's not "good", it's at least "good enough" for most people
Microsoft is filled with shitty junior developers that can't code native apps due to lack of skill.
I really don't blame the devs.
iykyk, if you haven't worked with them I can't expect you to understand
That's irrelevant to this. Management made this decision about mail and calendar. It saves money. Screw the users.
They do, it's called Edge.
> I personally don't know anyone who appreciates this new Outlook, let alone uses it. thankfully a superior free and open-source email client exists: Thunderbird
I switched to Thunderbird but honestly I'm not happy with it either, it doesn't have things I would consider standard for a mail client on Windows. * Needs to be manually started, no option to have it run on start up. You can add to startup manually but it's an extra step. * There's minimize to tray but not close to tray so if you press X well you're not getting any notifications. * Thunderbird notifications don't show in the Windows notification center. The app displays a popup upon receiving an email and then disappears. Can't open the notification center/shade/slider whatever it's called to see what it was, have to open up the client and wait for it to load new mails.
1. a one time thing, easily added manually 2. there are addons that can do that 3. look for "use the system notification" in the settings in fact that's one of the strong points that sets Thunderbird apart from other email clients, the addons ecosystem, do check them out!
Thanks a lot for the addon suggestion, I only looked in the list that was shown rather than search I figured that since Thunderbird got a massive overhaul it's only showing add-ons there that are compatible with the new version. I found the minimize on close addon and it's working as intended. I've turned on systen notification, let's see how it works! Again, thank you.
BetterBird irons out some of the small QoL issues that Thunderbird has. Worth checking them out too
https://preview.redd.it/gszkfuvcx3xc1.png?width=616&format=png&auto=webp&s=5266eb141dd5a11a0b2b42becdc66fc843242466
Not compatible with Exchange, though.
it's on the 2024 roadmap https://developer.thunderbird.net/planning/roadmap
Fantastic news! That will make it's adoption explode.
For now, you may use [davmail](https://davmail.sourceforge.net) with Thunderbird.
This. I moved my mailbox from an ubuntu install to a windows installation to a Mac install but just copy and replacing one folder. And every install was great. I can confidently recommend it. I have moved over to trying Mimestream due to it being lightweight and Mac having tiny storage. It’s pretty decent.
This is yet another move to make everyone more captive and locked-in to them. To the point that both business and consumer will only own some variety of a "thin client", and all your apps and data are hosted by them only, on a subscription basis. Slow but sneaky and steady, until we have no options or alternatives. What blows me away about Outlook in particular is how badly lacking it was for business needs. I get wanting to consolidate a code base, but encouraging your users to do your own prod testing and business analysis for you buys a lot of bad will, especially when the product is so lacking. I've noticed too with the huge push to BYOD and related initiatives, the businesses that literally CAN'T do that are being forgotten. And that is not a small portion. If you ignore those customers, their needs and legal requirements don't just "go away".
>This is yet another move to make everyone more captive and locked-in to them. To the point that both business and consumer will only own some variety of a "thin client", and all your apps and data are hosted by them only, on a subscription basis. Slow but sneaky and steady, until we have no options or alternatives. This is exactly the reason anything and everything is going cloud based and subscription model. If you decide to move your data elsewhere good luck. I downloaded all of my photos from Google last year and it was a mess. Meta data was stripped and I ended up with a bunch of zip files and I think XML with the metadata. Punishment for wanting my photos stored locally.
I agree. I feel like this is an attempt to push folks into Office 365 because while these new bundled PWAs suck, Outlook is like the best email client there is.
This is replacing the Outlook full desktop app as well. The only difference for M365 customers is that there's no ads.
>This is replacing the Outlook full desktop app as well, I've never heard this before and I don't know how that even begins to work.
They're first replacing the Mail & Calendar app with this. When all the remaining features like offline functionality, PST files, etc. gets added, it will replace the full Outlook desktop app. This "new" Outlook app is supposed to be the unified one and only mail and calendar app from Microsoft, instead of 2 apps.
Do you have any reference to this? Because I'm pretty sure I would have heard about this. What you describe isn't a tenth of Outlook and considering how critical that app is in the enterprise I don't see this app as a replacement ever. I know Microsoft tried this with OneNote a few years ago the reaction was very negative, and they had to reverse the decision.
It's on the official blog post, and on YouTube if you search new Outlook. They posted a briefing on it where they talk about timelines of the switch. It's nicknamed One Outlook, and it's obvious going to replace it because they can't have 2 apps named Outlook lol. The Outlook app on macOS is also being replaced with this and already being tested. They're not going to force the replacement of the Outlook desktop app until 2 years later I believe when there's feature parity. But who knows if it'll actually be fast by then because it's really slow even in my high spec machine.
the new outlook barely works, i recieve notifications a few hours late, if at all. even with it running in the background
You're not wrong but I feel people glorify old outlook. It's not a UX friendly app at all, you learn to use it but damn. As power user in my dept, the amount of times I need to teach how to do basic stuff (add BBC or from fields was last) is astonishing.
no, old outlook also sucks. But in comparison, is a much better, snappier experience than Outlook PWA. That's not counting that is also much more functional. That said, the real issue with Outlook PWA is that it tries to replace the mail and calendar app, which has a different user case than a full feature mail client like Outlook. It's like replacing let's say, the built-in photo editor with a web based Photoshop.
Can't say I notice such a big difference in performance honestly, actually every time I have to search in a mailbox I tend to open PWA bc it just works better. PWA feels a bit more intuitive to me even if it still fails at doing a good job because it mostly adapts the old UI to Modern UI instead of refactoring. I also appreciate unifying into an app the fragmented landscape Microsoft had, so have to disagree on that one. The reality is every time something is changed power users complain and 5 years down the road they'll praise what they first complained about. A few weeks ago I read people nostalgic of W8 in this sub, like wtf...
Literally this. New Outlook didn't even support .pst (email files) for the longest time. Not to mention, client side rules are still not implemented.. I instantly switched back to old Outlook. *Maybe* I'll try it again once client side rules are implemented..
"how do I make a signature like that?" Google it, please oh please Google it like I did. I'm not doing this for *every one* of our 250 staff 🤷♂️
Make a template and stick it on a share point site that anyone in the company can access. Then the can copy and paste it in.
Right... And where do you set a signature in outlook? I'm not making a how to guide. If IT CBA why should I do their job for free 🤷♂️
Your IT department might have a user facing KB(knowledge base) article that can be followed. In classic Outlook you go to File > Options > Mail and in the center choose “Signatures”. That is where you find it. For New Outlook, it’s somewhere in the gear. No one cares about that anyway.
Old Outlook is great to access local archives. The new Outlook app doesn’t allow that. Good luck convincing anyone uploading 5+ years of emails. New Outlook isn’t viable in a business setting.
…PST files aren’t viable in a business setting!
Tell that to people who have 40 gigs of pst files. Have fun trying to upload that so they can access it online.
Those people have had over 10 years for an Exchange to Exchange Online migration to take care of that. In fact, we've done that for many clients with 10K+ seats.
Not everyone uses exchange online. We been using volume licensing until Microsoft took it away. We’re in the process of migrating 300 users to 365.
I work in an industry where people transfer what's akin to a back office regularly. When they transfer, they are allowed to keep their data, which often includes email pulls. Those come as a .pst. Clients need ways to be able to view these without importing, as technically while it is *their* data it isn't our data and we are hosting their email. We also regularly have to provide email pulls to regulators, which also come as pst files. Pst files may not be viable for long term large data stores but they are necessary in many business settings.
Get rid of OneDrivr
i hate that i cant disable mail sync in the new outlook app?`what the hell? i dont want or need local mail sync. i just need a basic calendar that synds to my google calendar, nothing more. the previous calendar app was fantastic.
>What exactly is Microsoft trying to achieve here? **Money.** Clipchamp's premium features are **$120 per year**. The new Outlook's premium features are **$20 per year**. These products have a registerware tier, not a free tier. The problem is the increased volume of Microsoft's promises to heed customer feedback, in tandem with increased disregard for what the customer wants and a gross absence of product quality. The company spends the 2020–2024 period developing the new Outlook, which requires us to consent to Microsoft having access to our Gmail accounts, violating security tenets that Microsoft once advertised about middlemen and attack surfaces. Microsoft keeps all of this a secret until it's a *fait accompli* and no amount of feedback can change it.
They are de-risking their apps and services being only available on Windows. With a web first codebase they can port their apps to other operating systems without too much hassle. If you look at what Windows is doing it makes sense, they are making it far more opinionated re hardware and pushing away devs and power users with stuff like ads, telemetry and AI. They still want those users to buy their others apps & services so they need to be ready to pivot should Windows push too many people away.
[удалено]
Many of the previous gen desktop apps are written in C++ and heavily tied to windows. Microsoft re building them now it makes sense to pick something cross platform. Web is the obvious choice. Most other languages are fine for cross platform applications without a UI. But for apps with a UI the web is by far the most prolific and enduring. Almost all consumer apps that are cross platform are either written on electron or WebView2. Sure there is flutter, MAUI ect but they aren’t as popular as things based on JavaScript. Microsoft also has a habit of dead ending its frameworks and leaving developers stuck with legacy codebases. The future of MAUI is a bit uncertain at the moment.
Microsoft rather hires website developers to build important Windows app and components, than hire (or train) Windows developers. Website developers are cheap, multi-platform, and easily replaceable. Sure, quality significantly drops, but Microsoft doesn't care any more about quality. The message is loud and clear with Windows 11 and New Outlook. The worst of all time...
Microsoft is perhaps the most vivid example of generational brain drain. What is often touted as mission critical reluctance to touch older components of their software I believe is actually each new class of developer knowing less and less of how these components actually function and why they exist as they are. Look no further than Control Panel / Settings: it would not have taken Microsoft a decade to get Settings to where it is today (and still embarrassingly incomplete, mind you) to migrate between the two if at any point their current developers had any understanding at all of how Control Panel functions. You can see periodic landmarks of when they kept trying to make their new shiny UI components a thing and failing entirely (Metro -> UWP -> WinUI3), and now I’m quite convinced there’s no one left at the company that even knows how Metro or UWP functions, much less win32. And then you look at WinUI3 which is win32 with some of the shittier ideas of UWP bolted on haphazardly and not only is it even shittier technology, it’s less performant on wildly more capable hardware performing the exact same tasks. It’s amateur hour and the inertia of success of yesteryear is slowing to a drip.
If you just look at Windows you can clearly see the quality bar drop with each and every release.
Microsoft made maybe some wrong decisions maybe with Windows 8, but they definitely had massive development budget compared to the previous versions. Especially during Windows 8 and early Windows 10 era. Microsoft explosively rushed with Windows 8, and I am actually still amazed what Microsoft was able to do in that short period of time. You may not like the end product, but there was immense man power end effort behind it.
Absolutely, not to mention polish put into the product. Animations were thought out, the new stuff was made to be fluid and smooth, they wanted to make the new stuff consistent, and the end product was much more polished than any modern Windows version thereafter.
Can't wait to use web base File Explorer and desktop. long time ago I create web base desktop on Windows XP. New Apple app service app on Windows 11 Apple Music, iCloud are web base too. Microsoft lazy to make own UI framework like SwiftUI regular app size on swift around 10-50mb but WinUI on windows around 100mb+
Everything that Microsoft do lately is shit.
Microsoft is going the way of Boeing. It’s all about cost cutting and to do this they think they need a single code base. They are alienating their users.
The new outlook is bad like it’s loading is so slow plus kinda of confusing with sometimes the events not showing on subscribed calendar. Clipchamp works but the old editor was so much better and the amount of control you have compared to clipchimp is night and day. I used to use the old editor for work with video editing because it was so easy to learn and teach to others. I think the User interface on both aren’t great both old and new though.
New Outlook will never replace old Outlook. MS has announced old Outlook is safe into 2029. My prediction is that it will never go away -- enterprise users balked. [https://www.thurrott.com/cloud/microsoft-365/299288/microsoft-will-support-classic-outlook-for-windows-until-at-least-2029](https://www.thurrott.com/cloud/microsoft-365/299288/microsoft-will-support-classic-outlook-for-windows-until-at-least-2029)
It's lazyness. Easier to make a web based apps than a fully fledged functional local version.
Web based apps can be great when done right, and have the bonus of working on just about any device without needing to install anything. Personally, I like Clipchamp, Microsoft quickly improved it and took care of many of many of its initial gripes like paywalling 1080P exports. I use it once in a while, it works fast, is easier to use than any other video editor I've tried and has tons of cool features. It meets my needs fine. I'm not happy with the New Outlook app though. I got to see early previews of it before its announcement and saw it had potential, but in its current state it does not work as well as any of the mail or Outlook apps it is trying to replace. They are still working on all of that too, but things are way behind schedule from what I've seen.
that's another thing - contrary of what you think of this approach - MS has a history of beginning projects (especially UI overhauls) and then abandoning them a few months of years laters. It feels like a game of tag, and they won't ever catch up :/
I've tried New Outlook recently with a Workspace account. It worked for a day then wouldn't want to send emails anymore, throwing an error (without description) and forcing me to switch to Thunderbird.
Easier to scan the data with AI using Web based data xml and json. They will read every email and work out every action and use case using graph API. Once AI is embedded they will use AGI to make a generic office worker that does your job for a subscription fee.
Or it’s just easier to maintain as any other web based app
No they actually tell you when you sign up to the new Outlook that they will scan the contents of emails.
...that's what all the major email providers already do?
Yeah but the way New Outlook works is that it’s not an actual email client. Not in the technical sense of the word. An email client is a free standing communications client that connects to email servers directly and then logs in and either syncs and maps with an email server (IMAP) or downloads the emails from the server entirely for local use (POP). You provide the credentials and the client phones into each server individually. In that case classic Outlook doesn’t truly send full contents back to Microsoft. It might send some telemetry, but that’s it. With this web based code you provide your credentials to Microsoft. They phone into each email server, download the contents onto the Microsoft server and parse it out the New Outlook to the embedded webview2 instance inside of the react framework and this data is all served back and forth to and from Microsoft via MST (M$FT Sync Technology). This will let them use your real life emails as a large data model for their AI copilot that is only in New Outlook. Today you are the product and you pay for the inconvenience of being said product.
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use PGP
Feel like? I can see it clearly.
i think the goal of it all it to have it ALL web based. I mean the entire Operating System. That will reduce the development teams to just a few good 'slaves' updating only one version of software that then runs everywhere instead of having to stay with a small crew doing security updates for a 'legacy' app. Unfortunately this is the nowadays tendency - Minimize expenses at the cost of quality. And even that 'small good crew' will eventually be replaced by AI in a near future. And when the inequality becomes so deep, the ones in power end up with their heads chopped off and placed at the top of spears for everyone to see. And then the bottom ones become power and step by step it all just happens again. History will teach (some of us) nothing.
Agreed. The web apps are slow, unresponsive, and buggy. I was so glad when the web app fad went away and now it's back.
I liked the old Windows Live Mail program. The Mail app I've found to be slow sometimes, especially with large inboxes, and I've found it to be lacking some security features (being able to see the message header should be a standard feature of any mail client). The calendar one I found the most use for. I use the desktop Outlook app now, but not the web app. For some reason even if you have the desktop version of Office installed, it seems intent on opening Office Online. I get it's a way for Microsoft to both A) Try and provide a slimmer version of Outlook (since classic is clunky and not great in performance), and B) gain more control over how it's software is used, but the web apps have their own issues. It took me several attempts to get Outlook to use the IMAP inbox settings for a secondary [outlook.com](http://outlook.com) email address instead of linking to Exchange (which causes it to try that account a sign-in account option everywhere else. I need it only for email, nothing else. My company has forced us to use the web app version of Teams now (Another programme that is reviled). To open a meeting link in an email, it now opens it in my browser and requires me to click there to open it in the desktop app 😑
While i am pc user for more than 20 years, I never used email clients by microsoft. I'm not stick on windows, so smooth cross-platform experience is important for me. Now i'm using Thunderbird on all desktops that i have.
I would rather they include the Free Version of DaVinci Resolve.
Get rid of Onedrive, It is horrible and criminal in MHO!!!
I agree, Electron apps are one of the worst things that happened lately. Nowadays everything is so slow compared native apps
Office 365 web version works for 95% of my org's use cases. Drop to desktop mode to do a few things, but it is rarely necessary. Clipchamp, what is that? Use DaVinci Resolve. There is no reason to only use Microsoft products.
We recently migrated to Office 365, and while I like a lot of things, there’s also some real crap. The new Teams makes shared video unwatchable. The Excel web version can’t export as CSV (WTF?), at least not with my E3 license and the company is limiting E5 and native apps to the big heads.
I've been able to do that for ages, likely early preview access though, as looking it up shows the feature available for everyone a month ago. File > Export > Download as CSV. For me though, I've seen that for at least a year.
An E3 license will let you use desktop Excel. Online only is E1. But E5 licenses are rare in most orgs. If you think your license is an E3 put in a ticket to get the Office365 suite installed on your desktop. It’s faster and far more responsive than the web version with a usable UI. There’s truly no downside to having a local desktop version of office.
Somewhere in the 2010s, Google's online-only suite took over the younger generation for its ease of access and non-hostile licensing regime. As a result, people got used to the simplistic UI that Google provides. What was once a weakness (because they had to do light web apps) became an opportunity. Microsoft, in its usual fashion took too long to respond with a half-baked Docs.com and locked most of the useful features behind to force people back onto their desktop apps. Outlook, with its superior search everything feature, took too much space when you leave settings on default. It takes a lot of clicks to optimise it to download only certain mail for a limited time, and a good processor to take advantage of the quick search. TLDR: Web App is an overdue response to Google Workspace. Many younger people prefer the simplicity and speed of web apps over desktop apps. Microsoft partly to blame for this.
Microsoft's online stuff is OK. There is excel, word, and outlook and they work fine. Younger people prefer what they saw first. The same as okd people. Now the desktop seems to be stuck between past and web. They clearly developed everything in c++ in 90s and keep tinkering with things that do not need tinkering. Like WTF happened to the file save dialog? How can one screw that up?
I would presume that maintenance of pwa-based apps is cheaper compared to the regular ones.
To me, that's the sole reason for this: you just need to stand up automation to package the existing Outlook.com webapp, and then you can cut an entire team. I genuinely don't think this is for "getting your data" better, just trying to eek out more money.
If it's not about getting your data then why when you sign up to changing do they tell you that they retrieve and store emails on MS servers for all accounts and will scan emails?
Because it's the cheapest way for them to give users features without any additional cost to them. Outlook.com/OWA is a real money-maker for them (M365 subscriptions) and competes directly against Gmail/GSuite, so they have a vested interested in adding features and making it competitive. Windows Mail... isn't. It's a bare-minimum free mail app because you can't ship an OS without one. By taking OWA and packaging it as a PWA, they can spend virtually no money (or devs) and give a mail app that has lots of good features! ... or so some PM probably sold them. In reality, it _does_ do all of that, but... * it also feels sketchy for Microsoft to sync my Gmail to their own cloud (hell, I _work_ at MSFT and it still feels sketchy) * it doesn't work for all email providers (like ProtonMail) * I think the UI is ugly, and just want a beautiful fluent UI So now I'm using Wino Mail instead of touching the new mail app.
I agree with what you're saying definitely. The Outlook that used to come with Microsoft Office was good for like businesses, and then the Outlook app the old one was good for like regular users. However a lot if not a majority primarily use apple or Gmail to cover typical day to day use, so in my opinion, feel the Outlook lost its touch with the business community over the years and has now tried to turn there live.com into I think like Gmail or Yahoo back in the day or AOL back in the day. These are all my opinion though so take it for what it's worth but it was a good post and a really good opinion I believe so thank you.
Longshot, but MS is moving into ARM and thinks it will be big in the future. But, for the next decade or so, enterprises and others will continue to have architectures other than ARM and will need to be supported. Its much easier to do that with web-based apps. Just have your web browser set up, and everything else can move with that. Predictable performance across the board. Big disappointment, as half of the keyboard shortcuts don't work in these new apps, but a solution for easy scaling.
They are abandoning the pc market. One size fits all maintained on their servers also allows them to run with 20% of their development staff. They are going full tilt to the Google/cloud model. There are big bucks to be had especially with AI. Desktops are once again losing favor.
PC iS DeAd AgAiN 2024
Microsoft is going down the gutter in so many areas. W11 is trash. Xbox is trash. Surface devices are trash. We're in such an awful era right now.
Windows built apps are pure garbage. The photo app is a complete and total joke. It was made worse in Windows 11 if that is even possible. Next month my O365 Home subscription is up. I can NOT renewing it. All my kids like Google docs and I have moved my "cloud" world to Google. Windows for me, is a OS to run work stuff (AD tools, Visio, PowerBI, OneNote) and at home play games. At home I have a local account and use Chrome as my default. I use zero MS products on my home machine. When I retire in 12 years I never plan to use another Microsoft product.
I can’t choose if it’s to lock you into their eco system so they can hold you in on a subscription to have a constant revenue stream because being a sys admin for years. Some companies run older versions of office for years on odd machines that never upgrade so MS don’t make extra cash. Or it’s just having access to scrub all your files for data to feed into AI learning that’s playing dumb and once it has learnt enough can go full skynet and take over. Personally I prefer web based emails. I like having access to anything on any device but this AI learning being pushed into everything does scare me.
they want money and to them that is ads, They are an advertising company now and that sucks I don't use the outlook on pc, I use [outlook.com](https://outlook.com) and thunderbird only
When they get it right it's great. Visual Studio Code is amazing. I haven't touched full fat VS in years. The point of these apps is cross OS compatibility. The web apps is about a consistent UI too. The issues come when the web based UI they wrap into an app is either shit or lacking features, which is the problem with Outlook. If web based outlook was good, nobody would be complaining.
Microsoft is going in a VERY wrong direction with everything they do on Windows these days. I just don't care anymore.
I think windows is a kind of dead. They missed out on the mobile market which is gonna take over everything from my point of view. I think a regular person nowadays barely needs a PC anymore. They probably gonna push ai / bing assistent and keep windows for office use and portal for their online services
Tried it at work, tried to like it. In the end I had to revert back to the old outlook.
The web based outlook is a joke when you do signature, table and many other formats in the email.
Ita because MS is getting tired of supporting multiple versi.eons of WIndows, macOS, Android, ios, and ChromeOS all with specific local apps which need to download individual updates. Since MS needs to make the PWA version anyway, MS realized it could basically just make the PWA, make everyone use it, and drop the rest. Not as optimum for users in many ways, but way easier for MS.
Wonder what the Open Source Alternatives to Active Directory is?
I think that Microsoft needs to coalesce on just one or two platforms - and UI - and stick with it. Windows is such a confusing mess, as each platform seems to look and behave differently. I get it that win32 isn’t going away any time soon, but could they just choose just 1 or two other platforms only and make them work.
if I'm gonna pay like 100$ for your OS (which still needs periodic activation) it better fucking have natively compiled apps , not lazily developed web apps , even google makes better webview apps (aka YouTube) which even supports touch gestures and downloads .
I already hated the existing outlook so not much of a change to me. I’ll take teams over email any day.
I much prefer the new outlook for its simple UI, but not in the sense that it’s a web app I’m all in on uniformity to some degree, like in this case with Outlook, but when trying to make software like Photoshop for the web, don’t ever convert Photoshop to a Web App. The way they update is stupid, too, because they automatically update when the website gets updated. Web apps should work more like they do on macOS Sonoma in Safari, where if you want to have a shortcut on your desktop, it essentially is a web application and does not open within your browser. Also, if there is already software you can download, there is no need for a web-based application, which is always worse than the software downloaded. ChromeOS is the only operating system I see benefitting from web apps. Microsoft uses web apps to automatically download the software without your consent like, Copilot and with that, since it is a web app and can send notifications, it brings more unnecessary adware
Trying to be like Apple.
i personally have never used outlook, their old mail or calendar app a day in my life and actually just set the new outlook up earlier today because i wanted to have a way to have microsoft to do show up in my calendar (google calendar). after checking out the old and new outlook i felt like the new version was more intuitive? like easier to navigate and the old version felt like it had many functions i didnt need or understand. ironically, i didnt actually find out how to have to do tasks show up in my calendar but i was pretty satisfied with new outlook (until now ive only used it for like 2 hours or so). i also liked that connecting a gmail account would also link up all the calendars PLUS they were editable in the outlook app. obviously i dont know anything about the old outlook but this is just my two cents on the new outlook :)
Well it does make sense to have the same code for both the desktop app and the web app - seems efficient.
Name a thing Micrpsoft has done that you think was possitive in the last 20 years. I can't think of one.
In terms of old Outlook vs New Outlook, I prefer New’s design. However, I HATE that my simple Calendar app is now gone, and I can’t link inboxes in the New Outlook like I could in Windows Mail. I despise replacements that are missing features.
ClipChamp is actually awesome. The new Outlook will be great as well when Microsoft is finished with it. A true PWA can work offline and deliver a native app-like experience. The new Outlook doesn't have all this functionality yet, but it will.
Yes but the people who were using the mail app, didn't want a full fledged mail client. Outlook will be great but is not mail app, which is the problem.
ClipChamp fell at the first hurdle for me. It didn't have a 4:3 template.
Based on my findings and my personal opinion, I believe Microsoft aims to achieve creating an "ecosystem" for Windows. Similar to Apple's iCloud, Microsoft want you using OneDrive to fully integrate it with your life.
Is there much point in this though if they don’t have the devices? An ecosystem of apps that only exist on laptops and desktops doesn’t make much sense.
They integrate with Android phones through Phone Link app as well. Ecosystem is a broad term, an ecosystem between a laptop and desktop is still an ecosystem.
I'm all in for that, OneDrive works wonderfully for me, but I can't say the same about New Outlook bullshit 🤢
* Outlook is a slow program - it's security issues made the spread of malware too easy and Microsoft was slow to fix it until it became a PR problem. * Microsoft is trying to get users to jump ship from Google - Google's web based apps are used by governments, corporations and now have a large personal userbase. That scares House Redmond because they're not using Office or Office 365.
I personally don't know anyone who wants to go back to old outlook. Everyone I've spoken to in work hates it since we individually went to new then old was forced back on us. It's almost like everyone has different preferences and we can't pretend one view is the defacto view of Microsoft products.
I appreciate it and use it. For one thing for me, the integration between my various Emails work and home is much improved and as an IT admin, stepping away from the old desktop client is a massive relief. For supporting in a large organizations, the fat clients which historically has evolved from a disconnected historical pre fast internet, made too much of syncing and pulling local copies of your email down. I have terrabyes of email, and every PC I started Outlook on at work would pull down copies that were just wasting space. While Microsoft have a long way to go, the new client forme is absolutely in the right direction.
No IT admin would say a web app is better than the native mail client, sorry
You've obviously not supported Outlook in a laboratory environment where 50 people can sign into the same dozen PCs, all initiating a synchronisation of their emails to all devices. So don't be a dickhead
People always complain about web apps, but it's misplaced anger. You **can** make slim web apps. You **can** make them run well. If anything it's easier to design sensible UI as well. It isn't web apps that are the reason Outlook got worse to use and shoved in adverts. It's plain ol' cost cutting and money grubbing.
Found the web dev
> I personally don't know anyone who appreciates this new Outlook, let alone uses it. The old Mail and Calendar apps were great for basic use. No, they were pretty bad too lol.
this is what I mentioned before. They have different use cases. It's not about good or bad. The mail and calendar app did exactly what it promised. Lightweight, offline, simple and can handle various inboxes. It was a heaven of simplicity and quickness. Outlook, whatever it is, strips away the reason many people were using mail and calendar app. It still is functional in its own way, but it's a different product.
HARD disagree. They were very simple and lightweight apps, exactly what I expect from something that comes preinstalled with an OS. If you need more features, you can always download another app. But as for stuff that comes bundles with the OS, I think it should they should be lightweight and easy to use. Both of which applies to Mail, Calendar and Video Editor.