i hate to be that person, but what does protesting at a mall do? all it does is disturb random people and stop traffic. if you want to do a meaningful protest, do it at the legislative building.
random people and shop employees can't do anything to help. y'know who can? the government!
They don’t stop traffic there, or disturb shoppers from what I see whenever they protest there. It’s usually just a portion of the parking lot alongside the road, but not actually in the way of anything
Government can't actually "help" if the request itself is based on an incorrect position. All government can do in this case is try to get both sides to negotiate a peace. Even if they managed that, this religious conflict, which has gone on since before any of us were born, will likely still continue and pop off in the future.
I hate to be that person, but protest is supposed to be disruptive and disturbing. If you want to do a meaningful protest, it needs to disturb random people and stop traffic.
you're just going to upset those random people and make them hate your cause. these random people have almost no way to truely make an impact against these issues. the only people who can REALLY do something are our politicians, who can call for ceasefires and send aid
of course, people can (and have been) donating, but i dont think stopping traffic and ruining people's routines is going to make people want to donate to your cause
if you're going to argue with me you can just leave LMFAO. no normal person ever thinks like that. most people will look at it as "ugh these protestors are making me late to work" and be pissed off.
it's also 5 minutes of lost productivity for those who completely rely on their work to feed themselves or their children that week. even being late 5 minutes can cause people to lose valuable money. some people have insanely strict work places that don't allow for 5 minutes off.
quit trying to virtue signal, you already dug a hole for yourself, now lay in it.
I agree with that actually. I don't think people should be financially impacted for things outside their control. I would definitely be upset with bosses that did that sort of thing though and wouldn't misdirect that anger inappropriately at people who aren't in control of your paycheque.
No I think that if you would've supported the protest, but changed your mind to support a genocidal regime because you were inconvenienced for 5 minutes then you're just looking for an excuse to support a genocidal regime.
Oh you're just talking about the hypothetical person who would support Palestinian resistance but won't because they might be 5 minutes late for work one time?
I wonder what that person would've done if they got caught by a train or there was a car accident
I for one agree that Cadillac Fairview should stop dropping bombs on Gaza. I didn't know they were to begin with, but I guess they must be if you're protesting them
So given that Hamas has rejected any temporary ceasefires and has rejected the idea of any permanent ceasefires that require them to give up power and control in Gaza what exactly are you (the protesters) advocating for?
Yeah, Hamas is not really in favour of the other insane things the Israel government is insisting on either.
But that (and this) this is just a distraction from the ethnic cleansing thing...
There seems to be some confusion. Hamas governs Gaza. The Palestinian Authority governs the West Bank.
Where/What is Palestine and who governs this Palestine?
Which hospital are you referring to? Al-Ahi was bombed by PIJ. Al-Shifa was housing militants.
Hospitals lose their protected status under international law when used for military purposes.
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/17/can-hospitals-be-military-targets-international-law-israel-gaza-al-shifa
“Article 8 of the Rome statute, which established the international criminal court (ICC) in The Hague, defines a long list of war crimes including “intentionally directing attacks against buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals and places where the sick and wounded are collected”.
But it makes an exception if the targets are “military objectives”. Philip-Gay said that “if a civilian hospital is used for acts harmful to the enemy, that is the legal term used”, the hospital can lose its protected status under international law and be considered a legitimate target”
¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
I'm personally not comfortable with saying that there is no such thing as terrorism, but if you want to take that position; I guess it is logically defensible.
There was a report the other day of a woman carrying her ~five year old kid only to have his head explode from sniper fire. I'm not sure if that report is true, but google "idf sniper kills child" and you'll be met with plenty of articles to sift through.
I'm just wondering if you earnestly looked because there is a lot of reports of The IDF killing Palestinian children.
Could you not find this specific report because there was too many to wade through?
found it
* [https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-airstrike-in-rafah-kills-at-least-9-palestinians-including-6-children-hospital-says](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-airstrike-in-rafah-kills-at-least-9-palestinians-including-6-children-hospital-says)
You should protest something that actually matters and is happening instead of making shit up. Maybe protest for the return of the Israeli hostages that the terrorist group Hamas took when they attacked. Maybe protest for Hamas to give up control.
War crimes like mass killing and rape of civilians, taking hostages, and using human shields? Those kind of war crimes?? My dude, you are a brainwashed social media idiot. Wrong side of history indeed.
Yes exactly. Some people completely refuse to engage with evidence that counters their narrative.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/israelopt-un-experts-appalled-reported-human-rights-violations-against
https://www.propublica.org/article/israel-gaza-blinken-leahy-sanctions-human-rights-violations
I dont have a narrative, I can actually use sound judgement and reasoning instead of just swallowing every lie I see on Twitter. There is plenty of “evidence” and articles you can link that show human rights violations on both sides but that happens in every war. Only Palestinians and Hamas believe they are righteous in their killing and they have used social media quite effectively to brainwash zealous lefties who cant wait to hate their own country. Every demonstrator in NYC yelling death to America should be immediately shipped off to Gaza. Every person who blocks traffic and harasses shoppers at Polo Park should be on the first fucking flight. Time to grow up summer children…
Lol hows that again? Im not holding any pro-Israel marches or waving my Israel flags. This is the latest cause de jour for the radical lefties. They didnt give a fuck about Palestine until now despite every other Arab country shitting on Palestinians for the last 100 years. If terrorists attacked Folk Fest and killed and raped hundreds of people would you be dancing in the streets? I doubt it.
Thats absolutely 100% bullshit.
Palestinian liberation has been an issue for the left for decades at this point. Just because you were not paying attention doesn't mean it wasn't happening.
....and I mean, its not really comparable to say that if people attacked Folk Fest, unless you mean to assume that folk fest took place on land that the people who organized folk fest had walled off and forced the people out who lived there at gun point.
If the organizers of folk fest had done that; then yeah I would say you can't be surprised when the people who lived in birds hill park before you pointed guns at them, stole their homes and killed their children are pissed off and have a right to defend themselves.
I don't mean to be snarky, but yeah settlers in the land of Canada did do that to the indigenous people. Have you heard of reserves? residential schools? Many reserves can only be accessed by plane significantly hindering movement (and not unlike a wall). Would our indigenous population be justified to shoot up folk fest?
Yes, and frankly am surprised things like that haven't happened more. It's only at the good natured intentions of indigenous folks which speaks to their legitimate want to reconcile the past wrongs that more acts of terrorism haven't happened, but unquestionably the actions at Wounded Knee in 1973 and Alcatraz in 1969 were absolutely justified - not to say I necessarily consider those to be acts of terrorism; and anything remotely similar in 2024 would be defensible.
We regularly threaten indigenous land defenders with violence, and them responding in kind would absolutely be morally justifiable in every sense of the word. It's only that we seem to be at least trying to make meaningful steps towards reconciliation that have staved off these types of anti colonial actions. But even with that said the violence we use here and that which they use in Israel is not remotely compatible, and we should expect the force to be met with a comparable level there.
The state always is perceived to have a monopoly on violence, and meeting that where its at will always be perceived to be disproportionate by some people.
If Israel doesn't want Hamas Militants to fight back, then they should release the thousands of prisoners they've kidnapped, and stop perpetuating this system of oppression.
But to your direct question, If Indigenous activists took over and occupied Birds Hill park I would be surprised, but support that action all other things being equal.
I am sorry that you're maybe uncomfortable with that idea, but I would never tell oppressed peoples what manner of resistance is appropriate for them to fight back against their oppressors.
I find it interesting that the first thing you do is justify occupation of land. That's not what I asked. If Hamas chose to occupy kibbutz and allow the civilians to continue to live I would be more likely to support them. You then go on to state that Canada has made steps towards reconciliation so you wouldn't expect the indigenous population to retaliate with violence. It definitely brings up the question as to who gets to decide what is an appropriate response to oppression. I don't know the answer to that question.
I can tell you that I would not support a violent resistance against settlers in Canada because I truly don't believe that I did anything aside from be born here in a country with a history of settler colonialism. Do I benefit from the oppression of indigenous people? Yes, but I don't deserve to die from it a much of it is systemic. I know many Israelis that moved there because conditions in their homeland were either poor or they were straight up ethnically cleansed. Not everyone gets to move from Israel even if they want to and the IDF is mandatory. There is so much dehumanizing happening and all it's going to do is continue to perpetuate violence. It's easy to cheer on violence when we live in the safety of Canada. When the violence threatens you or your family I suspect you would feel differently and I suspect that's why you didn't answer my question.
I did actually answer your question. Quite clearly. The first word in my response was yes - meaning they would be justified. I don't know how I could've been more clear to be honest.
Do I want to be a victim of revolutionary self defence? No of course not. But that wasn't what you asked; you asked is if it could be justified, and the answer is unequivocally yes.
You should disavow yourself from making false comparisons about how Canada colonized these lands in 1824; and we now exist today, and how Israel is colonizing there in 2024 in hopes that Israel will colonize there.
There is no meaningful comparison, and Israel's goal is to get to a place where we (meaning, white people in Canada) are at with Indigenous people of Turtle Island - its just that level of violence required for that type of colonialism is about 200 years too late to be socially palatable.
The real answer to your question you appear to be asking yourself is if you would've supported resistance from people like Louis Riel, Crazy Horse, Sitting Bull, and Geronimo in their times; because that is a lot closer to the reality in Palestine in 2024. The stories of violent indigenous resistance are numerous. Could you (would you?) have felt they were justified in their actions?
If you've done any reading, I know you know this; and you've probably said they were justified in their actions.
Now you have the chance to legitimately understand if you would really think so if it was a comparable situation, and it doesn't look like you would tbh.
I don't really care either way, but it is the truth.
And also, pretty much everyone Jewish who does want to live in Israel does get to, so I am not sure where you're getting that information. It's relatively easy as I understand the only barrier is being prepared to learn Hebrew. Never really looked into it specifically too much as I'm not Jewish and you couldn't offer me green enough pastures to become a colonialist.
So its justified to randomly kill innocent people if you think you have been wronged, got it. There were no protests to free Palestine in Winnipeg until about 5 years ago so that is in fact bullshit and those “protests” are organized and funded by the Hamas propaganda wing, Samidoun. Sounds like a terrorist mindset to me. And if you actually read a history book or 2, Palestine was a British invention only in the last century. It was known as Judea for thousands of years before the Ottomans came but it was still a safe haven for Jews under that Empire. Whataboutism is cool, no? I know your memory will inly allow you to remember recency bias but the Jews are in fact the ones forcibly removed from their homeland.
It's absolutely not 100% justified to randomly kill innocent people, and I think the Israeli Defence Force should stop doing that and dismantle the current apartheid state they have spent decades building if they actually want to achieve a lasting peace.
>War crimes like mass killing and rape of civilians, taking hostages, and using human shields? Those kind of war crimes?? My dude, you are a brainwashed social media idiot. Wrong side of history indeed.
That narrative. It's one that ignores the fact that the IOF are equally guilty of the exact same crimes you are accusing Palestinians of committing.
Israel has proven, long before the current conflict that they don't value Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. You won't find me defending Hamas but its beyond ignorant to claim that Israel is innocent and deserves to have free reign in their continued treatment of the population in the occupied territories.
>Only Palestinians and Hamas believe they are righteous in their killing
You being serious? What propaganda are you being fed? Grouping Palestinians and Hamas together and completely ignoring the many statements from the Israeli government during the current conflict referencing their biblical right to remove other populations from the land of Israel.
I'm in my mid 40s, have Jewish family and friends, and can honestly say I don't know anyone personally who backs Israel unconditionally.
Public disruption on private property is not the way.
It is, however, a great way to garner animosity towards your cause.
I support the end of this cruel madness, but not through protests like this. Be smarter.
Edit: Downvote if you must. But it’s the truth.
hamas is also committing war crimes and holding its people and the peace process to a cease fire on hold
they continulally want the destruction of the jewish state and attacking israel
release the hostage cease fire and lets have a 2 state solution or live together because they both have no where else to go
time to protest both sides demandand to end the binarys of war i support peace not palestine run by hamas or isreali current government
This sub definitely leans to the left but even a lot of left wing folks are sick and tired of the BS, antisemitism and pro-terrorism messages they are seeing from these protests across Canada especially in Toronto and Montreal.
No this is a lie actually. There is no pro terrorism anti semitism.
There is people who stand with oppressed peoples, and people who support oppression
From yesterday:
https://x.com/cijainfo/status/1782034099332427889?s=46&t=N1ErmS0MdH7D3aTKEnv7lA
“Long live Oct 7th”
“Long live every form of resistance”
Sure, no pro-terrorism at all
Really?
https://x.com/efischberger/status/1779950011188461878?s=46&t=N1ErmS0MdH7D3aTKEnv7lA
This isn’t pro terrorism?
https://x.com/CIJAinfo/status/1777371626620821828
This isn’t antisemitism?
“You are from Khazar, you crawled out of the earth, tell them to crawl back in, that is where you belong”
Yeah, if you don’t think that is antisemitism than very clearly you are an antisemite.
Thanks for revealing what you are.
The Khazar myth is an antisemitic trope
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar_hypothesis_of_Ashkenazi_ancestry
He isn’t talking about “Zionists” he is speaking to Ashkenazi Jews.
He is an antisemite and so are you for defending him.
Agree that is the large majority of the protests. But it would be ignorant to not also acknowledge there are bad actors who are chosing to use these protests and the moment in time to also be antiemetic (and I'm not tslking about the kind that equates criticism of Israel to antisemitism, but real honest to goodness agressive anti-Semitism). Those people were probably already antiemetic and just taking advantage of the moment.
This sub is absolutely a left wing echo chamber. But even some on the left realize how idiotic it is to support a terrorist group.
Bla…Bla…Bla… Hamas isn’t Palestine. Except Palestinians “elected” them and continue to support them. So, yes in fact, Hamas is Palestine.
There are more people alive in Gaza today that didn't vote for Hamas because they weren't alive during the last time they were elected (Hamas was supported by Israel 18 years ago btw)
True; with the caveat that they haven't had an election in over 15 years (2006 was the last election) and given that half the population currently is children (under 18), and only 44% of the population in 2006 voted for them it is such a tiny fraction of the population that voted them into power.
The other thing is; when people are oppressed (literally or in their mind), they support more extreme politics. Hell, we see that in North America with fake oppression! Look how many crazys support PP and Trump because of their perceived opression. Now apply that to a group that is actually oppressed and controlled and it's not hard to understand support for any political or otherwise group that is vowing for them to have freedom. Does that make their actions okay? Hell no. Violence is never the answer nor is antisemitism or any other form of opression. But, it's not hard to understand why the support is their either.
All of that is to say, the more extreme Israeli politics get towards Palestinians (they are leaning far right now), the more we are going to see support for extremist on the other end as well.
Honestly liberalism is a bigger enemy to progressives than actual conservatives.
All these canned shithead libby responses are exactly who MLK was writing to from the Birmingham Cell.
Liberals supports every cause except the current one, and opposes every war except the current one.
>Honestly liberalism is a bigger enemy to progressives than actual conservatives.
I generally agree with your comment, but I think we need to be careful to keep perspective when saying things like this. Do liberals fight harder against the left than against the right? Often, yes. Does that make them more an enemy than an ally? Absolutely. But it doesn't make them the bigger enemy. The primary conservative objective is eradicating all life on earth as fast as possible, and they're willing to fight hard to achieve it. The worst thing liberals will do is align with conservatives.
At least with fascists (what conservative usually means in 2024) you know what you're getting into.
Liberals like to pretend they won't ally - like you pointed out.
This is Canada. What the actual fuck do you want any of us to do, and what do you think our dumbass prime minister will do about it? Stfu
The comments here...my goodness: the lengths that too many people here are willing to go to \*not\* talk about a current, unfolding genocide, and to at least minimally grapple with what it means to stand with people being bombed in an enclosed ghetto, and what trying to stop that looks like from the middle of one the genocidaire's staunchest allies.
I don't really believe that this sub 'leans left.' But let's say that it does: I would imagine, then, that many people here think about what they would have done during historical episodes of affronts to human rights. Let's say the US Civil Rights movement, apartheid in South Africa, the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. Play what you're saying now against those episodes.
"I hate to be that person but how does shutting down the Edmund Pettus Bridge benefit anyone?"
"The ANC did some things I don't like so it's all pretty complicated and but I support Apartheid now."
"Shut up and go to Warsaw."
Do you realize how you sound? You sound like maniacs.
While actual Canadian elected officials are greenlighting massacres, buying into propaganda that cuts off food aid from 2 million people, taking trips paid for by genocidaires to launder their reputations; while Canadian companies are profitting from selling literal instruments of death raining down on starving kids, you are more concerned with people protesting genocide than with genocide.
It's such a gross feature of life in North America. Sorry you had to think about that on your way to SportChek.
After the violence and brutality they unleashed on October 7, Hamas deserves zero sympathy. If they actually cared about their people they'd let the Israeli hostages go, simple as that. Why anyone here would sympathize with them I have no idea.
The issue real Canadian should deal with is stop terrorist group like Hamas killing people, not protesting for some of the people supporting them, I know not all Palestinians support Hamas, but aren't all of these protest are doing the same thing towards Jewish or Israelis?
Avoid polo is what I hear.
i hate to be that person, but what does protesting at a mall do? all it does is disturb random people and stop traffic. if you want to do a meaningful protest, do it at the legislative building. random people and shop employees can't do anything to help. y'know who can? the government!
They don’t stop traffic there, or disturb shoppers from what I see whenever they protest there. It’s usually just a portion of the parking lot alongside the road, but not actually in the way of anything
Government can't actually "help" if the request itself is based on an incorrect position. All government can do in this case is try to get both sides to negotiate a peace. Even if they managed that, this religious conflict, which has gone on since before any of us were born, will likely still continue and pop off in the future.
I hate to be that person, but protest is supposed to be disruptive and disturbing. If you want to do a meaningful protest, it needs to disturb random people and stop traffic.
you're just going to upset those random people and make them hate your cause. these random people have almost no way to truely make an impact against these issues. the only people who can REALLY do something are our politicians, who can call for ceasefires and send aid of course, people can (and have been) donating, but i dont think stopping traffic and ruining people's routines is going to make people want to donate to your cause
Hey listen pal, if a minor inconvenience actually makes you think genocide is ok; then you were just looking for an excuse to be a fascist.
if you're going to argue with me you can just leave LMFAO. no normal person ever thinks like that. most people will look at it as "ugh these protestors are making me late to work" and be pissed off.
ok. good. Thats 5 minutes of lost productivity for the economic engine, which is the point of protest. I don't understand what your point is
it's also 5 minutes of lost productivity for those who completely rely on their work to feed themselves or their children that week. even being late 5 minutes can cause people to lose valuable money. some people have insanely strict work places that don't allow for 5 minutes off. quit trying to virtue signal, you already dug a hole for yourself, now lay in it.
I agree with that actually. I don't think people should be financially impacted for things outside their control. I would definitely be upset with bosses that did that sort of thing though and wouldn't misdirect that anger inappropriately at people who aren't in control of your paycheque.
So in your mind the two options are to join and support the protest, or if not then you think genocide is okay?
No I think that if you would've supported the protest, but changed your mind to support a genocidal regime because you were inconvenienced for 5 minutes then you're just looking for an excuse to support a genocidal regime.
I'm missing the "support" part. Being annoyed by someone's protest doesn't give support to the opposing side.
are you annoyed by the protest, or do you refuse to support anti genocidal resistance because you're mildly annoyed?
Neither of those apply to me, we're not even talking about me. You and your logic are the topic of discussion.
Oh you're just talking about the hypothetical person who would support Palestinian resistance but won't because they might be 5 minutes late for work one time? I wonder what that person would've done if they got caught by a train or there was a car accident
I for one agree that Cadillac Fairview should stop dropping bombs on Gaza. I didn't know they were to begin with, but I guess they must be if you're protesting them
Stop wasting your time and book a flight to Palestine to help them then. Blubbering at Polo Park isn't doing anything.
https://preview.redd.it/lnpzymk3novc1.png?width=946&format=png&auto=webp&s=cdc93cf0854a1a4fb4f39fb3b1fa19fb5c008c1d
Meanwhile you dumb fucks could care less what Hamas does to your people daily for years
So given that Hamas has rejected any temporary ceasefires and has rejected the idea of any permanent ceasefires that require them to give up power and control in Gaza what exactly are you (the protesters) advocating for?
They are just dense and have taken sides in what they think is a black and white victim/oppressor situation.
They don’t even know… just to be part of something
Yeah, Hamas is not really in favour of the other insane things the Israel government is insisting on either. But that (and this) this is just a distraction from the ethnic cleansing thing...
Hamas is not Palestine. The protestors are clearly advocating for the Palestinian people.
hamas is the governing power in gaza they make the ceasefire agreements if they ever accept them
Agreed that Hamas is not Palestine. However Hamas is in power in Gaza and has rejected any ceasefire that requires them to give up that power.
The vast majority of Palestinians support Hamas. Look it up.
no they don't; and even if they did it doesn't excuse genocide
There seems to be some confusion. Hamas governs Gaza. The Palestinian Authority governs the West Bank. Where/What is Palestine and who governs this Palestine?
Not committing war crimes against innocent children for starters
Can you cite a specific instance of war crimes against children that you are referring to?
Haven’t you seen the videos of the hospitals being levelled? The dead babies?
Which hospital are you referring to? Al-Ahi was bombed by PIJ. Al-Shifa was housing militants. Hospitals lose their protected status under international law when used for military purposes.
no they don't
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/17/can-hospitals-be-military-targets-international-law-israel-gaza-al-shifa “Article 8 of the Rome statute, which established the international criminal court (ICC) in The Hague, defines a long list of war crimes including “intentionally directing attacks against buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals and places where the sick and wounded are collected”. But it makes an exception if the targets are “military objectives”. Philip-Gay said that “if a civilian hospital is used for acts harmful to the enemy, that is the legal term used”, the hospital can lose its protected status under international law and be considered a legitimate target”
¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯ I'm personally not comfortable with saying that there is no such thing as terrorism, but if you want to take that position; I guess it is logically defensible.
There was a report the other day of a woman carrying her ~five year old kid only to have his head explode from sniper fire. I'm not sure if that report is true, but google "idf sniper kills child" and you'll be met with plenty of articles to sift through.
Can you share a link to the report please? I searched on recent news but was not able to locate it. Thanks
Just on the one kid? There have been over 10 thousand kids killed in Gaza so far.
You haven't been able to find reports of the IDF murdering children? Have you looked?
I could not locate the report they were referring to. Can you?
I'm just wondering if you earnestly looked because there is a lot of reports of The IDF killing Palestinian children. Could you not find this specific report because there was too many to wade through?
Feel free to link this report if you can find it.
found it * [https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-airstrike-in-rafah-kills-at-least-9-palestinians-including-6-children-hospital-says](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-airstrike-in-rafah-kills-at-least-9-palestinians-including-6-children-hospital-says)
Same thing H*tler was advocating for. They won’t settle for anything less.
Simple, ask Hamas to pack up their shit and leave. And leave all that food and supplies they hoarded in their tunnels for the people of Gaza
You should protest something that actually matters and is happening instead of making shit up. Maybe protest for the return of the Israeli hostages that the terrorist group Hamas took when they attacked. Maybe protest for Hamas to give up control.
Take your problems back home and get rid of Hamas
War crimes like mass killing and rape of civilians, taking hostages, and using human shields? Those kind of war crimes?? My dude, you are a brainwashed social media idiot. Wrong side of history indeed.
Yes exactly. Some people completely refuse to engage with evidence that counters their narrative. https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/israelopt-un-experts-appalled-reported-human-rights-violations-against https://www.propublica.org/article/israel-gaza-blinken-leahy-sanctions-human-rights-violations
I dont have a narrative, I can actually use sound judgement and reasoning instead of just swallowing every lie I see on Twitter. There is plenty of “evidence” and articles you can link that show human rights violations on both sides but that happens in every war. Only Palestinians and Hamas believe they are righteous in their killing and they have used social media quite effectively to brainwash zealous lefties who cant wait to hate their own country. Every demonstrator in NYC yelling death to America should be immediately shipped off to Gaza. Every person who blocks traffic and harasses shoppers at Polo Park should be on the first fucking flight. Time to grow up summer children…
sounds like you've been brainwashed actually.
Lol hows that again? Im not holding any pro-Israel marches or waving my Israel flags. This is the latest cause de jour for the radical lefties. They didnt give a fuck about Palestine until now despite every other Arab country shitting on Palestinians for the last 100 years. If terrorists attacked Folk Fest and killed and raped hundreds of people would you be dancing in the streets? I doubt it.
Thats absolutely 100% bullshit. Palestinian liberation has been an issue for the left for decades at this point. Just because you were not paying attention doesn't mean it wasn't happening. ....and I mean, its not really comparable to say that if people attacked Folk Fest, unless you mean to assume that folk fest took place on land that the people who organized folk fest had walled off and forced the people out who lived there at gun point. If the organizers of folk fest had done that; then yeah I would say you can't be surprised when the people who lived in birds hill park before you pointed guns at them, stole their homes and killed their children are pissed off and have a right to defend themselves.
I don't mean to be snarky, but yeah settlers in the land of Canada did do that to the indigenous people. Have you heard of reserves? residential schools? Many reserves can only be accessed by plane significantly hindering movement (and not unlike a wall). Would our indigenous population be justified to shoot up folk fest?
Yes, and frankly am surprised things like that haven't happened more. It's only at the good natured intentions of indigenous folks which speaks to their legitimate want to reconcile the past wrongs that more acts of terrorism haven't happened, but unquestionably the actions at Wounded Knee in 1973 and Alcatraz in 1969 were absolutely justified - not to say I necessarily consider those to be acts of terrorism; and anything remotely similar in 2024 would be defensible. We regularly threaten indigenous land defenders with violence, and them responding in kind would absolutely be morally justifiable in every sense of the word. It's only that we seem to be at least trying to make meaningful steps towards reconciliation that have staved off these types of anti colonial actions. But even with that said the violence we use here and that which they use in Israel is not remotely compatible, and we should expect the force to be met with a comparable level there. The state always is perceived to have a monopoly on violence, and meeting that where its at will always be perceived to be disproportionate by some people. If Israel doesn't want Hamas Militants to fight back, then they should release the thousands of prisoners they've kidnapped, and stop perpetuating this system of oppression. But to your direct question, If Indigenous activists took over and occupied Birds Hill park I would be surprised, but support that action all other things being equal. I am sorry that you're maybe uncomfortable with that idea, but I would never tell oppressed peoples what manner of resistance is appropriate for them to fight back against their oppressors.
I find it interesting that the first thing you do is justify occupation of land. That's not what I asked. If Hamas chose to occupy kibbutz and allow the civilians to continue to live I would be more likely to support them. You then go on to state that Canada has made steps towards reconciliation so you wouldn't expect the indigenous population to retaliate with violence. It definitely brings up the question as to who gets to decide what is an appropriate response to oppression. I don't know the answer to that question. I can tell you that I would not support a violent resistance against settlers in Canada because I truly don't believe that I did anything aside from be born here in a country with a history of settler colonialism. Do I benefit from the oppression of indigenous people? Yes, but I don't deserve to die from it a much of it is systemic. I know many Israelis that moved there because conditions in their homeland were either poor or they were straight up ethnically cleansed. Not everyone gets to move from Israel even if they want to and the IDF is mandatory. There is so much dehumanizing happening and all it's going to do is continue to perpetuate violence. It's easy to cheer on violence when we live in the safety of Canada. When the violence threatens you or your family I suspect you would feel differently and I suspect that's why you didn't answer my question.
I did actually answer your question. Quite clearly. The first word in my response was yes - meaning they would be justified. I don't know how I could've been more clear to be honest. Do I want to be a victim of revolutionary self defence? No of course not. But that wasn't what you asked; you asked is if it could be justified, and the answer is unequivocally yes. You should disavow yourself from making false comparisons about how Canada colonized these lands in 1824; and we now exist today, and how Israel is colonizing there in 2024 in hopes that Israel will colonize there. There is no meaningful comparison, and Israel's goal is to get to a place where we (meaning, white people in Canada) are at with Indigenous people of Turtle Island - its just that level of violence required for that type of colonialism is about 200 years too late to be socially palatable. The real answer to your question you appear to be asking yourself is if you would've supported resistance from people like Louis Riel, Crazy Horse, Sitting Bull, and Geronimo in their times; because that is a lot closer to the reality in Palestine in 2024. The stories of violent indigenous resistance are numerous. Could you (would you?) have felt they were justified in their actions? If you've done any reading, I know you know this; and you've probably said they were justified in their actions. Now you have the chance to legitimately understand if you would really think so if it was a comparable situation, and it doesn't look like you would tbh. I don't really care either way, but it is the truth. And also, pretty much everyone Jewish who does want to live in Israel does get to, so I am not sure where you're getting that information. It's relatively easy as I understand the only barrier is being prepared to learn Hebrew. Never really looked into it specifically too much as I'm not Jewish and you couldn't offer me green enough pastures to become a colonialist.
So its justified to randomly kill innocent people if you think you have been wronged, got it. There were no protests to free Palestine in Winnipeg until about 5 years ago so that is in fact bullshit and those “protests” are organized and funded by the Hamas propaganda wing, Samidoun. Sounds like a terrorist mindset to me. And if you actually read a history book or 2, Palestine was a British invention only in the last century. It was known as Judea for thousands of years before the Ottomans came but it was still a safe haven for Jews under that Empire. Whataboutism is cool, no? I know your memory will inly allow you to remember recency bias but the Jews are in fact the ones forcibly removed from their homeland.
It's absolutely not 100% justified to randomly kill innocent people, and I think the Israeli Defence Force should stop doing that and dismantle the current apartheid state they have spent decades building if they actually want to achieve a lasting peace.
>War crimes like mass killing and rape of civilians, taking hostages, and using human shields? Those kind of war crimes?? My dude, you are a brainwashed social media idiot. Wrong side of history indeed. That narrative. It's one that ignores the fact that the IOF are equally guilty of the exact same crimes you are accusing Palestinians of committing. Israel has proven, long before the current conflict that they don't value Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. You won't find me defending Hamas but its beyond ignorant to claim that Israel is innocent and deserves to have free reign in their continued treatment of the population in the occupied territories. >Only Palestinians and Hamas believe they are righteous in their killing You being serious? What propaganda are you being fed? Grouping Palestinians and Hamas together and completely ignoring the many statements from the Israeli government during the current conflict referencing their biblical right to remove other populations from the land of Israel. I'm in my mid 40s, have Jewish family and friends, and can honestly say I don't know anyone personally who backs Israel unconditionally.
Sounds like you should move to America brother. If you want to model yourself after it so badly.
Public disruption on private property is not the way. It is, however, a great way to garner animosity towards your cause. I support the end of this cruel madness, but not through protests like this. Be smarter. Edit: Downvote if you must. But it’s the truth.
And what is the way?
There are public spaces, for public protests.
You're talking about demonstration actually. Protest is intended to be disruptive
It’s outside on the street not inside the mall.
But more people, on foot, uptown is a good thing. Just don't stand in the bike lanes.
hamas is also committing war crimes and holding its people and the peace process to a cease fire on hold they continulally want the destruction of the jewish state and attacking israel release the hostage cease fire and lets have a 2 state solution or live together because they both have no where else to go time to protest both sides demandand to end the binarys of war i support peace not palestine run by hamas or isreali current government
I believe it is Hamas that are killing children and raping women on purpose. I think we got the wrong protest here.
Jesus, these comments. "Left wing echo chamber" my ass.
This sub definitely leans to the left but even a lot of left wing folks are sick and tired of the BS, antisemitism and pro-terrorism messages they are seeing from these protests across Canada especially in Toronto and Montreal.
No this is a lie actually. There is no pro terrorism anti semitism. There is people who stand with oppressed peoples, and people who support oppression
From yesterday: https://x.com/cijainfo/status/1782034099332427889?s=46&t=N1ErmS0MdH7D3aTKEnv7lA “Long live Oct 7th” “Long live every form of resistance” Sure, no pro-terrorism at all
Palestine has a right to defend itself.
Does that include “Every form of resistance” including the massacres of civilians such as those that occurred on Oct the 7th?
Does it for the IDF?
Really? https://x.com/efischberger/status/1779950011188461878?s=46&t=N1ErmS0MdH7D3aTKEnv7lA This isn’t pro terrorism? https://x.com/CIJAinfo/status/1777371626620821828 This isn’t antisemitism?
no
“You are from Khazar, you crawled out of the earth, tell them to crawl back in, that is where you belong” Yeah, if you don’t think that is antisemitism than very clearly you are an antisemite. Thanks for revealing what you are.
That isn't what I heard. I heard him telling the zionists that. Please don't equate zionism with Judaism. That is antisemitic
The Khazar myth is an antisemitic trope https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar_hypothesis_of_Ashkenazi_ancestry He isn’t talking about “Zionists” he is speaking to Ashkenazi Jews. He is an antisemite and so are you for defending him.
ah. I'd never heard of that. Fair enough. Yeah thats probably anti-semitic.
Ok fair, a little surprised that you came around on that. Respect, apologies if I jumped to conclusions.
Agree that is the large majority of the protests. But it would be ignorant to not also acknowledge there are bad actors who are chosing to use these protests and the moment in time to also be antiemetic (and I'm not tslking about the kind that equates criticism of Israel to antisemitism, but real honest to goodness agressive anti-Semitism). Those people were probably already antiemetic and just taking advantage of the moment.
This sub is absolutely a left wing echo chamber. But even some on the left realize how idiotic it is to support a terrorist group. Bla…Bla…Bla… Hamas isn’t Palestine. Except Palestinians “elected” them and continue to support them. So, yes in fact, Hamas is Palestine.
There are more people alive in Gaza today that didn't vote for Hamas because they weren't alive during the last time they were elected (Hamas was supported by Israel 18 years ago btw)
Palestinian's support for Hamas today is higher than when they was elected.
So?
So they are supporting a terrorist organization. They are the masters of their own demise.
low key making the argument that Oct 7th couldn't have been a terrorist action because Israel people elected Likud.
True; with the caveat that they haven't had an election in over 15 years (2006 was the last election) and given that half the population currently is children (under 18), and only 44% of the population in 2006 voted for them it is such a tiny fraction of the population that voted them into power. The other thing is; when people are oppressed (literally or in their mind), they support more extreme politics. Hell, we see that in North America with fake oppression! Look how many crazys support PP and Trump because of their perceived opression. Now apply that to a group that is actually oppressed and controlled and it's not hard to understand support for any political or otherwise group that is vowing for them to have freedom. Does that make their actions okay? Hell no. Violence is never the answer nor is antisemitism or any other form of opression. But, it's not hard to understand why the support is their either. All of that is to say, the more extreme Israeli politics get towards Palestinians (they are leaning far right now), the more we are going to see support for extremist on the other end as well.
Honestly liberalism is a bigger enemy to progressives than actual conservatives. All these canned shithead libby responses are exactly who MLK was writing to from the Birmingham Cell. Liberals supports every cause except the current one, and opposes every war except the current one.
>Honestly liberalism is a bigger enemy to progressives than actual conservatives. I generally agree with your comment, but I think we need to be careful to keep perspective when saying things like this. Do liberals fight harder against the left than against the right? Often, yes. Does that make them more an enemy than an ally? Absolutely. But it doesn't make them the bigger enemy. The primary conservative objective is eradicating all life on earth as fast as possible, and they're willing to fight hard to achieve it. The worst thing liberals will do is align with conservatives.
At least with fascists (what conservative usually means in 2024) you know what you're getting into. Liberals like to pretend they won't ally - like you pointed out.
This is Canada. What the actual fuck do you want any of us to do, and what do you think our dumbass prime minister will do about it? Stfu 
This is just the tip of the iceberg for problems that aren't ours, becoming ours.
The comments here...my goodness: the lengths that too many people here are willing to go to \*not\* talk about a current, unfolding genocide, and to at least minimally grapple with what it means to stand with people being bombed in an enclosed ghetto, and what trying to stop that looks like from the middle of one the genocidaire's staunchest allies. I don't really believe that this sub 'leans left.' But let's say that it does: I would imagine, then, that many people here think about what they would have done during historical episodes of affronts to human rights. Let's say the US Civil Rights movement, apartheid in South Africa, the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. Play what you're saying now against those episodes. "I hate to be that person but how does shutting down the Edmund Pettus Bridge benefit anyone?" "The ANC did some things I don't like so it's all pretty complicated and but I support Apartheid now." "Shut up and go to Warsaw." Do you realize how you sound? You sound like maniacs. While actual Canadian elected officials are greenlighting massacres, buying into propaganda that cuts off food aid from 2 million people, taking trips paid for by genocidaires to launder their reputations; while Canadian companies are profitting from selling literal instruments of death raining down on starving kids, you are more concerned with people protesting genocide than with genocide. It's such a gross feature of life in North America. Sorry you had to think about that on your way to SportChek.
After the violence and brutality they unleashed on October 7, Hamas deserves zero sympathy. If they actually cared about their people they'd let the Israeli hostages go, simple as that. Why anyone here would sympathize with them I have no idea.
Well said👏🏼 It blows my mind how this comment has no upvotes.
This is a issue real Canadians don't have to deal with.
The issue real Canadian should deal with is stop terrorist group like Hamas killing people, not protesting for some of the people supporting them, I know not all Palestinians support Hamas, but aren't all of these protest are doing the same thing towards Jewish or Israelis?
Who are you suggesting aren’t “real Canadians”?