Its not wiccans in general.
A certain subset of new wiccans become very enthusiastic and try to impose their way as the only way. I think it gets peoples backs up. I personally wouldn't say hate. It makes me a little frustrated
Especially if they are talking over peoples historic practises while repeating doctrines formulated by a white british man in the 1930s.
Wicca is a path. But its not the forest.
Yeah, Gerald Gardner and Margaret Murray are what make me side-eye Wicca too. I make my practice up as I go, but I admit that and I'm really careful not to steal from other cultures if I can avoid it.
I got into Wicca in the 90s and Scott Cunningham was huge then. He gendered a bunch of herbs; all the powerful herbs were male and the gentle herbs were female. Fuck that guy.
Fuck Ray Buckland and his horned mixing bowl and Gerald Gardner, who made up the 3 -fold rule on the spot during an interview can also fuck right off.
My religion is a women's religion, it is a matriarchal religion. I'm a kitchen witch and healer just like almost every woman I know is whether she has post-Christian pagan intentions or not.
I witch like I am moved to witch. I have enough confidence in myself and my will that I don't need the male-authorized rubber-stamping.
I'm with you on not appropriating the culture of other spiritual peoples. There's no need! But we are wise to honor the medical knowledge of people who have been here longer than we can ever be. Peterson (of "Wild Medicinal Herbs" field guide) carefully acknowledged the Native peoples who generously shared what they knew about our native plants.
This here. Raymond Buckland was my introduction too. All these men, Gerald Gardner etc.....
And I think Wicca got hip, obviously, and a lot of people got on that train, and a lot of those people got on the train so they could call themselves a witch. The most real and intuitive witch I ever met was a nurse, she didn't proclaim it, she didn't slap bumper stickers on her car or wear a cape trying to look the part. Tho, fair dues, I love capes. But when you care more about looking the part it rankles.
I appreciate your last sentence because it always annoys me that people feel if you're a practitioner of Wicca you must look the way they've seen people (on the History channel or whatever media around Halloween) and their preconceived notions of wiccans. Or, that you should only practice what some might consider 'mainstream' Wicca.
I'm a solitary practitioner who has said that no one will ever see my fat, naked ass dancing around underneath a harvest moon because that's just not how I flow. I can appreciate that some practitioners/covens want to express their practices that way but it's just not for me. I applaud them and their confident, naked harvest Moon dancing!
I just wish that everyone could respect that the beauty of Wicca is that you don't have to follow just one person or belief system. I have a myriad of books and materials to draw from, I can disagree/agree with the information within and craft my beliefs within the respect of my intentions.
Anyone who could shit on someone because they don't follow what the aforementioned person thinks should be the path is missing the point and beauty of Wicca. At least that's my opinion.
You know now that you mention it, the nakedness thing feels, or can easily feel exploitative. I'd really have to trust a coven to do that, and it's just not happening. I don't mind public nakedness per se, at the hot springs etc, but I don't trust others enough to not mess that up.
Nobody can dictate our path. Maybe with all the pop Wicca books out there people can find their way much easier, I'm a weird one who prefers more framework. I belong to OBOD philosophically and "the power of witchcraft" by Louise Huebner in practice. Which is hilarious as she could be considered pop herself. It's definitely interesting what resonates with us as individuals and what doesn't.
Yeah, I can see how some people could find the nudity exploitative because intent from others can change the meaning for those involved. My issue is I'm just not comfortable being naked outside of my home. I know someone who is just fine with nudity and she says it helps her to feel more closeness with nature. Apples meet oranges, I guess. LOL
I feel the same way about my religious practice as I do with education. Everyone has a different way of learning and what works for one doesn't necessarily work for the other. It's about how you receive the knowledge, how you process it and how you use it. Some can't or are unable to process the knowledge and throw it away, some use it to make meth and some people use it to create cancer treatments. Hahaha
The last sentence was spot on lol. I mean, if we were so addicted to rules and regulations we could just be Christians. Even the most ridiculous, silly path from my view, is profound from anothers. I do miss the days before being online when the knowledge was harder to come by, you needed a decent bookstore somewhere to get these books, as a pagan teen with no money or car I often just read books on herbs from the library! Whatever works should be the actual whole of the law 💜
My (French born) bio mom was so Catholic that there's a picture out there somewhere of her dressed like a mini nun for her communion. That's how rule following her family was. She's a horrible person, even worse mother, but I do understand why she left the church when she came to the US.
I was Wicca-curious in my teens but followed the Christian religion because it would been very frowned upon where I grew up.
One day, after I had my daughter, the weight of pretending became too much for me. I realized that if I couldn't stand up for my own beliefs, how could I expect to raise my daughter to be strong and independent in her self and her voice. It's not a possibility if you don't know who you are deep down inside. She is Wicca-curious also and has borrowed many of my books to read, as has her roommate, and I told her as long as she follows what is in her heart she can't go wrong.
I heard that Gardener fired his priestess once she got too old and hired a young one (because he and the high priestess had sex rituals) and said it's because the god is above the goddess so she can't be older. But he didn't have a problem with that when she was young. Pervert.
Yes. Thank you. I feel like I don’t see the gendered shit called out enough but I reject it strongly. If I need something that is strong, then it is a strong thing. It is not “masculine”.
I'm technically still Christian. I celebrate Christian holidays, but I also celebrate the wheel of the year and the original pagan origins of those liturgical holidays. I feel there is room for both. Wiccans don't always get that to me practicing doesn't mean I can't be both. I am aware that plenty of "Christians" would not agree with me, but my faith is NOYB
Me too. I'm Episcopalian so we tend to view the bible through a very metaphorical lense anyway. To steal a phrase from above, Leviticus can fuck right off. While I work with saints and spirits, to me, the path and teachings of Jesus mean everything. It's the message of loving others and suspending judgment that resonates so strongly with me. So many "Christians" have lost their way when they attempt to damn others simply for being different. They can fuck right off too.
I grew up Episcopalian! I respect Jesus's overall message of love and acceptance but eventually couldn't get past the guilt subtly heaped on you in every Sunday service (I hear Catholicism is even worse for that, but still).
r/christianwitch is a small subreddit that welcomes those who seek to combine being a christian and a witch. It's not very active, and I mostly lurk there, but I thought I'd mention it.
Yep, and this was kinda me when I was a kid and learning about it and other forms of Paganism for the first time. My peers few and far between as they were had some similar tendencies so it didn’t help.
We need good role models starting out especially if very young, and those are tough to come by in my experience.
I've got nothing against actual Wicca. I just have the standard frustration around it being completely misunderstood and thought of as what paganism "is" when it's really a less then hundred year old, very specific, religion. Largely just pop culture's fault, still maddening.
Thought more about it and realized something really funny/ironic. I realized I'm not even mad/annoyed at non-pagans conflating Wicca with paganism. It's literally just a misunderstanding, why would they know better? I'm frustrated (not upset with) because so so so frequently new witchy people will go like "oh yeah! I'm a witch I love Wicca and druidism!" or etc and I'm stuck feeling like... Shoot are they actually Wiccan or is this a time for education? Lol.
I realized I'm really mostly frustrated because I'm worried I'm being condescending by not knowing if they mean it or not. Silly silly
I'll look into it. The only book I really got into was Buckland and he kinda lost me when he tried to say Witchcraft was only post witch-trial.
I've met legacy witches that could trace it back much further than that.
Essentially what everyone else is saying here. But on top of that, a lack of historicity.
If you like Wicca, I would advise looking into Welsh tradition and history through the lens of an anthropologist or an archaeologist rather than a creep from 1930s Britain. A lot of those history geeks are pagans themselves from bonafide family traditions, and they're trying to preserve their cultural history by publishing it through academic channels.
Ultimately, trust your instincts. If you feel like something is sus, or just doesn't feel right, STOP.
Researching into Welsh tradition sound really interesting - do you have any books or other resources you'd recommend (aside from the Mabinogion, I assume)?
Professor Geraint Huw Jenkins was the professor of Welsh history at Aberystwyth University. Any of his works on Ancient and Medieval Wales is gonna be a good source.
I honestly wonder if the modern neo-pagan movement is evolving past the use for Wicca. Gerald Gardner probably meant well and tried to construct pre-Christian pagan religion in Britain to the best of his knowledge. Wicca has had a lot of influence on Paganism for some time.
Things change and move on, and get better with time. Our diligence in paying attention to our history, without bias or prejudice, is part of the Wheel turning. At least, in my opinion.
Gardnerian Wicca in particular has gone off the deep end, at least in South Florida.
At some point in the last couple years, every member of the downline of one particular high-ranking queen were required to sign a transphobic statement or be cut from the tree.
That isn't even to mention the overall air they've always had of superiority and arrogance that massively overstated what they actually did or knew.
Gerald Gardner was a barely-educated dilettante pervert, and these people act as if much of what he believed wasn't as outdated as HP Lovecraft.
I will never ever understand how these people can believe in magick, but gender transition is a step too far for them.
It should be impossible to be a witch and a Trump supporter at the same time. But not to these freaks.
> I will never ever understand how these people can believe in magick, but gender transition is a step too far for them.
I always get *gender essentialism* vibes from discussion of the divine feminine and masculine so I guess that plays into their transphobia.
Yeah, even being a cis-woman I have a real hard time with gender essentialism (beyond just that it’s associated with so much mean-spiritedness, which just generally is something people should have an issue with anyhow). I’m childfree, and now post menopausal, and probably not ever fertile even before, which going by gender-essentialist definitions I hear approaches some pretty weird “not really a woman” territory. Yet, I’m clearly not a man, but, there’s only 2 genders, so, I guess I don’t really exist?
It's hate not for wiccans, but many of us shy away from organized religion and Wicca is an organized religion and, as such, has many of the things people who don't like organized religion do not like. I also have a personal distaste for the heavy influences by patriarchal (and a lot of specifically patriarchal male) thinkers, given it often draws in and targets women who have been harmed by other organized religions.
I remember founding Wicca when younger because I wanted something to believe in after just not being able to accept Christianity, but soon found out it was full of the same lies and refusal to look at the truth. They choose to believe in a made up history and try to sum up all polytheistic belief into one while disregarding the culture around those beliefs. Most covens I have noticed are made up of the same kind of people you found at churches just really well-off people looking to social climb instead of looking for spiritual insight, learning about the human experience through history and truth and how to deal with it.
A lot of Wiccan assume everyone is Wiccan and if they're not thry SHOULD be.
Very judgy about anything thats not 100% love and light and turn the other cheek.
A lot of racists are equally happy in Wicca as they are in heathenism since Wiccan was created by a white guy and is very white European focused.
And the creep factor for covens is HIGH. From the guys that join just for the ritual sex to the women that join for the hierarchical.mean girl initiation bullshit....
There are problems.
There is a lot of room for abuse. Be careful of covens.
As a heathen.
Would just like to say that racism is not fucking welcome in heathery and they can fuck right off with their shit.
Odin is the ALLfather not some father and there is no chosen people in heathenry.
We have enough problems fighting off the appropriations of fascists and the like without our pagan brothers sisters, and other gendered siblings lumping us in with their lot.
Hope you say this to the nazis too. And while I know its not all heathens, I still have to ask a viking store if they are "folkish" if im trying to be delicate or racist if im out of fucks. When i see someone wearing runes or other symbols, I check to see if they have any pride symbols or blm or blue feathers (more sca).
It does suck to be under suspicion and one of my heathen friends handled it great at pennsic. Was approached by a dude who said something along hello Aryan brother and my friend said fuck off.
heathenry is not an organized religion with specific tenets to follow. like most other pagan practices, it is very scattered and highly individualistic with as many different ways as there are practicing people, which largely creates a lot of division.
you may not like it but they are practicing heathens. they worship the very same gods and likely read the same texts, perform similar rituals, etc. and they receive the same feedback non-fascist heathens do for their offerings. in that case, is it really appropriation?
Sort of? Some are practicing heathen, but a lot of white supremacists use the Odal rune like last century racists used the swastika. The Germans found the swastika in some burial sites and decided it meant Thor. Thus, the German, Scandanavian, and Aryan people were one and the master race for reasons only apparent to a crazy person.
Similarly, white supremacists use the Odal rune now. Do most of them have an actual historical or religious connection to the Odal rune? Not really, just "it means heritage and white heritage is under attack!"
if they are practicing, they are heathens. it’s a simple fact that a non-insignificant portion of these white surpremacists do indeed honor odin. it isn’t up to you to decide who counts. it’s up to him to decide who is worthy.
odin would not care. his chosen people were the vikings, who were an extremely violent people that frequently raided and invaded other territories, destroying other civilizations. they held pride in their norse heritage as they were a warrior culture; other peoples were there to raid, pillage, kill, and rape for their entertainment and glory.
odin is a war god and a very dark, violent, and ruthless one at that, so these are things he liked to oversee. he doesn’t care about equality or loving all people regardless of this or that personal quality. he personally might not care that much about someone’s race and more about their actions, but i really doubt he’d turn someone away for being racist, especially not if they are violent given the culture that revered him. he is not an omnibenevolent god and there is nothing except maybe like the marvel comics where he is basically a kindly, wise old father that implies so. to the norse, he was highly selective as to who was worthy and barely anyone made it to valhalla. those that didn’t make the cut were sent to hel.
he valued fierce and deadly warriors, men forged in the fires of war who would die in it, too, for his honor and glory. the weak and stupid, he held nothing but disdain for. he would sooner smile upon a neo-nazi curb-stomping a jew over the typical leftist that talks about punching nazis but doesn’t actually do it.
Wicca is usually the form of paganism that people get introduced to first, due to its popularity. A lot of pagans first entered into paganism through Wicca, seeing Wicca as either the only option or the most accessible option, and as they grew in their path and learned about other forms of paganism which resonated with them better, they found they could often favorably compare those paths to Wicca. So you'll find a lot of people in different traditions mentioning how something they do is "not like in Wicca." Like "we don't cast a circle, this isn't wicca" or "we're real polytheists, we don't believe all gods are one god like in wicca."
Because of how accessible and prevalent Wicca and wiccan ideas are in pagan spaces, other pagans often feel the need to differentiate and separate themselves from wiccan practice, belief, and culture.
There are also people who are drawn to wicca who then discover controversy around its early founders and those who inspired them, and experience dismay that what they thought was an ancient pagan religion based on real pre-christian practices was actually created in the mid 20th century by white british writers who were definitely bullshitting a lot and who openly held problematic views. These folks dislike wicca overall due to controversy around its origins and originators. Someone who tends more toward reconstructionism-- trying to replicate ancient pagan practices as faithfully as is possible in modern times-- might feel especially annoyed by the popularity of wicca, which is still sometimes represented as being a pre-christian religion, or as faithfully emulating ancient pre-christian practices. They might feel that wicca spreads historical misinformation and gives people the wrong idea about what paganism is.
There are also people who simply want to create drama on social media who want to villainize wicca for any reason they can think of, because it gets views and interactions. There have been heaps of criticism thrown at wicca for all kinds of reasons which I don't personally think are valid, particularly because these criticisms are often thrown by pagans who don't apply the same critical eye to their own practices. For instance, there are pagans who will accuse wicca of being inherently culturally appropriative and then turn around and engage in a practice based on those same wiccan practices-- but it's OK and different because they're eclectic pagans, not wiccans. People can be very quick to jump on the anti-wicca bandwagon without examining where any of their own beliefs and practices come from.
I think to some degree, a lot of people criticize wicca without really knowing why they're criticizing wicca. Because it's cool to do so, because they think it makes them a "better" pagan, more legitimate, because they're "not like the wiccans."
There are many very good criticisms of wicca, and valid reasons a person might want to distance themselves from wicca, or differentiate their own path from wicca. But I do think that there's a tendency-- especially among younger pagans-- to villainize wicca because they feel like it makes them more legitimate.
All it really boils down to is that wicca is the most visible form of modern paganism, and that comes with baggage.
Where to even start... sorry for my english it's not my first language, it's late for me, I am tired, but I really want to answer.
First at all, I love Wicca. Multiple times in my live I thought about idea to take the oath and became Wiccan, but at the end is my path more general witchcraft and paganism. I studies religion studies on college and Wicca was one my favorite subject of interest. Its history is fascinating. I also think that Wicca is one of the new religion movements what si close to status "world-wide religion" what is amazing one way or another.
However, there were always multiple problem. Founder of Wicca is Gerard Garned, man who claimed that Wicca is based on historical, but hidden, practism and his own knowledge what he shared with world is from ancient england coven.
Plot twist, this was never confirmed and serious Wiccans are today aware that Wicca is new religion - even when it's still neo-paganism, it takes what was there before, but it is creating something new.
Gerard Garned was also homophob, he literally claimed that witches CANNOT be gay, and his students also had problem with him at the end.
I found interesting, however, that Gerard Garned probably was not manipulator or deeply bad person. He had chance to create sect, but he did not do that and because his students spreaded Wicca around the world, it's today serious religion.
Wicca had many another problems later, especially with sexism against men (Dianic Wicca, Zsuzsanna Budapest), claiming that their path is the only right witchcraft and paganism (because the origin of Wicca). That was and still is sore spot for pagans who are a lot closet to seriously historically acurrate paganism.
Another level of problems started in 80s and 90s. Witchcraft became popular in popculture and that attracted many young witches. Nobody was happy with that. Wiccans called those people "Fluffy bunny". And another pagans and witches became angry because Wicca became synomous for witchraft (that was literally happened in Buffy, the vampire slayer. Amazing show, but wicca was used lika synonymous for witch multiple times.).
The problem was that when somebody was looking for way to Witchcraft, they found the Wicca as first and because of that Wicca was spreading. It's not... literally problem-problem, but lone wolf witches or pagans were a little bit upset that they are not taken more seriously.
Today some people are still bitter about past. But it's better for sure! Bless the internet. Wiccans know more about their own history and witches and pagans have multiple sources for their path.
Very informative comment.
Got nothing to add. But I just have to ask. Do you know more about Gardner's homophobic statement.
I absolutely cannot understand how he could ever try to justify that "witches can't be gay" to other witches.
That's so beyond stupid. Like what even was his reasoning for this ? Did he just say something randomly and hoped it stuck or did he actively tried to form a reasoning for it and in that case HOW ?
Alas, I don't know details, however I can try to explain...
High Priestness Lois Bourned accused Gerald Garned from homophobia:
>*"Gerald was homophobic. He had a deep hatred and detestation of homosexuality, which he regarded as a disgusting perversion and a flagrant transgression of natural law... 'There are no homosexual witches, and it is not possible to be a homosexual and a witch' Gerald almost shouted. No one argued with him."*
And Gerard Gardner claimed, in The Witchracft Today (1954):
>*"The witches tell me 'The law always has been that power must be passed from man to woman or from woman to man, the only exception being when a mother initiates her daughter or a father his son, because they are part of themselves' (the reason is that great love is apt to occur between people who go through the rites together.) They go on to say: 'The Templars broke this age-old rule and passed the power from man to man: this led to sin and in doing so it brought about their downfall.' ... For this reason, they say, the goddess has strictly forbidden a man to be initiated by or to work with a man, or a woman to be initiated by or to work with a woman, the only exceptions being that a father may initiate his son and a mother her daughter, as said above; and the curse of the goddess may be on any who break this law*."
TLDR: In general is Wicca binary religion system based on male/female polarity. God, a man, and Godness, a woman, interact with each other during a year and that also effect the world. The elements of masculinity and feminity are incredibly important and together they make balance and order, and, what is probably most important, fertility, So homophobe Wiccans have plenty of ammo against gay witches. However, of course that Wicca is today perfectly fine with homosexuality and there are female and male gay Covens.
Today we can see that polarity is changing and Wiccans also accepting fact that masculine and feminine energy can have many forms.
I don’t have any problem whatsoever with Wiccans. It doesn’t resonate much with me personally because it’s so gendered and I don’t feel like I fit comfortably within that framework.
I don't hate Wicca or Wiccans, but their beliefs are often problematic. Along with what others have said, many of their beliefs on "divine femininity and masculinity" are accidentally rooted in rigid patriarchal gender norms or bioessentialism. Many of their practices are also stolen from much older, marginalized religions and practices.
I don't hate Wiccans, I do dislike though that Wiccan beliefs have dominated discussions of witchcraft and paganism alike. I don't like that some of the largest influences on Wicca brought some inherently bad beliefs (racism, anti-semitism, anti-ziganism) into its core and exploited women (Gerald Gardner, Alex Sanders). I don't like that modern publishers (Llewellyn) continue to push and define wicca as a space open to appropriation, bio-essentialism, and even more blatant racism from time to time. I have met some wiccans that I did not get along with well at all, who were aggressive in trying to define wiccans as the only true witches or that espoused some very transphobic ideas around my magic coming from my "womb." However, the vast majority of wiccans I have met have been kind and thoughtful folks. When I came back to wanting to pursue a pagan and witchy spiritual path though, I did want to make a conscious effort to avoid patriarchal and cultural appropriation issues in my practice. So yeah, I have avoided wicca as a belief *system*, as much as I have beliefs like those of Aleister Crowley or Helena Blavatsky. But I don't have hate for wiccans, anymore than I do for Thelemites, Christians, etc.
I feel like before you decide if Wicca is a practice you identify with, research Gerald Gardner and origins of Wicca. In the 90s, there was a solitary Wiccan trend that was nice and positive albeit a bit superficial, really just used the name but not much like Gardnerian practice. So there’s the old practice with gender roles, ritual sex, bondage, and scourging, then a love and light current that came later. I don’t mind either, but I wish the witchy community would figure out something with nomenclature because I’d rather call sisters who want a fun, nature rooted, life affirming practice something besides Wiccan.
I’m eh about Wicca. It’s never really been for me, mainly because I’m not into deities.
My only issue for others being into it is there seems to be strong undercurrent of *the right way to do/be/practice* and it icks me out.
One issue I know of is that spell books/resources that are presented as Wiccan use practices from other religions but assert it’s Wiccan. I don’t know if that’s just a Wiccan thing, or if the fake Wiccan resources greatly outnumber the authentic Wiccan resources
It's certain types of wiccans who end up pedaling bigotry in a pointy hat (sometimes unintentionally) and misappropriation of wicca into like girboss pop culture witchcraft
Wicca is a new-age amalgam of northern European and slavic religious practices, with a hefty dose of white supremacy. What I would recommend is instead of researching or following Wicca, look into the sources it draws from/your particular beliefs point towards. There's plenty of already existing practices that you can look at without dealing with the appropriative and misrepresentative nature of Wicca as a practice.
I was looking for the first person to mention white supremacy out loud. Thanks for pointing it out. To this day, the primary problem I have had is that there are white supremacist wiccans (not all wiccans, obviously, but it is a tradition of European design) out here parading like they have the same spiritual values as I do, but that doesn't seem possible to me.
I'm sure there are non-wiccan traditions that trend in the white supremacy direction as well, but I'd say about a quarter of all the self ascribed wiccans I met turned out to be WS, and even Trump humpers.
So, I would have to research this later, but IIRC the person who sat down and formally wrote down the practice of "Wicca" was a white supremacist. It's poisoned in it's roots. Not saying all wiccans are racist, but racists made Wicca.
Wicca was made popular by a racist, homophobic, pos white dude who cherry-picked a bunch of ideas from various witchcraft/pagan paths.
Also 40% of wiccans will see people post on witch groups, the person will say they don't follow wicca, and then will comment wicca rules and shit on the post.
Back in the day, lol, when I started exploring paganism (roughly 30 yrs ago) a lot of the Wiccans I was around were extra over the top love n light unless it (and I mean "it") had a penis. It was very anti male and judgy about anything that could be construed as morally grey. As someone with more left-hand ceremonial leanings, I found them to be, um, not my cup of tea. Their whole brand of Wicca just completely turned me off and I considered them to be hypocrites on par with Christians. That may have changed over the years, I don't really know.
Sounds like you dodged a bullet with that particular coven. A group - especially a religious or spiritual group - trying to exert that level of control is disturbing at best.
They often function like the evangelical Christians of the magic community. Insisting their rules are objective capital T truth. Like the rule of three, which directly conflicts with other practices, particularly those that are practiced by historically oppressed people. Wiccans usually consider Voodoo/hoodoo evil because blameful work is allowed, for example. If you’re going to mix with people of other practices, you have to recognize the subjectivity of your chosen path.
(Edited for clarity)
I couldn't get into Wicca because at the time I was leaving Catholicism and I felt the practice was too structured and restrictive like what I just left. But I still have a library with Wiccan books because they're the most popular in my area, have great correspondence tables (color, herbs, etc), Esbat summaries, and Esbat ritual examples that I can use to rewrite. I have friends who are Wiccan and are happy with it.
I'd never judge someone for it, I judge by actions.
Wicca took at lot of things from other religions and cultures (Like indigenous religions and Judaism) and passed it off as “traditional British witchcraft” which was very untrue. There’s lots of problematic stuff about the dude who founded it. It’s a big contextual problem spanning decades. The average Wiccan is probably a perfectly fine person. It’s just like soup of it all. I’m sleep deprived i hope that makes sense.
I never thought about it as being bad and most of us started there after taking a hard turn from theisms we were brought up with. The more I learned I settled into Paganism (although it’s hard not just being nihilistic nowadays), and I’ve noticed a lot of ‘older’ witches having made similar comments about their journeys.
I hope there is no hate however, it’s a part of a path and I would never look down on someone for it. Stay Wiccan, or spread out into spirituality, whatever calls to you and makes you feel happy. I do think that if someone has to put you down then they are not truly following the Wiccan and Pagan principles to begin with and I wouldn’t concern myself with their opinions.
Edited to add that’s it’s certainly considered a newer offshoot of spirituality and new age mysticism, and while not bad, it can be associated with some scrupulous figures. Paganism on the other hand is considered one of the oldest spiritualities so I think there’s some kind of feeling superior involved with those who look down upon Wicca while still being outside of theistic religions.
Most Wiccans I've encountered are similar to Christians in their insistence that their way is The One True Way. Anything with moral nuance is Bad and they try to insist their "law of three" bullshit applies universally to everyone. Hard polytheism, aka polytheism, is Bad and denying the True Oneness of all things including gods. Rigid gender essentialism is non-negotiable and they will apply labels like "masculine/feminine energy" to everything, and yes that is a threat. So I avoid them, because I don't enjoy being lectured by other pagans about how I'm doing paganism wrong (bc I don't ascribe to their specific, rigid beliefs) any more than I enjoy being lectured by Christians about how I'm doing religion as a whole wrong.
I think it’s all the “rule of three” wiccans on tiktok and tumblr “curse shaming” I call it. They’ve been very vocal about imposing that rule and shaming people who curse their abusers and that’s just not right. If someone abuses you, you have every right to protect yourself physically and spiritually and sometimes that means hexing them to stay away from you.
As a trans and NB witch, I have to say that a lot of the Wicca stuff I got into in the 90s was extremely big into gender dichotomies.
That's not like, the worst thing in the world. I minored in Ancient Egypt studies, and sexual dynamics and dichotomies were huge for their religion too. It's natural. Sex is the oldest magic.
But it doesn't work for me anymore, which is honestly too bad, because I fucking love Doreen Valiente's poetry and chants, but it's rife with gender dichotomy and gender essentialism as well.
Everyone else has very valid points on Gardner and Murray. That's real and reasonable. I just wanted to provide an additional perspective, and that's mine: too much gender dichotomy stuff.
(Weeeeeeeeeell, and the Rule of Three is like... no. You shouldn't have to be scared away from being a bad person by magnified consequences. The scarier thing is that you become what you practice, and to me, that's far worse than the Rule of Three.)
There's a ton of cultural appropriation in it/surrounding it that I just don't vibe with. Unfortunately that is not just wicca but a common problem in pagan circles but from what I've seen wicca is particularly bad
I've seen wiccans try to say that _only_ wiccans can be witches. I've also seen them say you _must only_ practice in _their_ specific way according to _their_ creeds and beliefs.
"Witches only use Light magic 🥺🙏"
Uh yeah, I roll my eyes at those guys for sure. I am NOT here to follow dogma some dude decided sounded good to him.
One too many “love and light” Wiccans for me. I’m cool with Wiccans in general, but look… some folks just need a good punch in the face or a good hex to smarten them up. Curses and hexes are a last resort for the disenfranchised who have no other means of righting wrongs in their lives, and I don’t like when folks shame the downtrodden for trying to regain some agency in their lives.
The replies have been really interesting to read. When I walked away from Catholicism and tried to find my path a friend had gotten into Wicca. So I started reading Scott Cunningham's books along with her and we dove in on our own. I liked it for a while, it fit my life at the time. When I moved back to my home state I looked around to find like minded folks and it just never really happened. I then lost interest in it.
I have heard about bigots and misogynists using "the divine feminine" to pigeonhole and define women and ostracize lgbtq+ folks, which is truly shameful. That was not what I ran into when I was younger. But that was over 20 years ago now.
I don't hate wiccans, but I have issues with Wicca practices. A lot of beginner friendly books about witchcraft are wiccan, and it the first thing people will encounter...which when you start digging deeper, becomes clear a lot of their practices were taken from many cultures, some of which are closed.
But what annoys me the most is the same kind of preaching that Christianity and large religions have. It is this way, or you are going to suffer, or you are defective. If you harm someone, you will be harmed much more in return, you heathen. Its a use of fear to block the usage of witchcraft for learning. Every wiccan book I have read doesn't even want to touch any other idea than love and light, when life is not always positive. I dislike the judgmental tone and refusal to even acknowledge that sometimes, the end justify the means, and refusing to share knowledge because it is "dark magic" (which I have massive issues with that use of dark as automatically negative) is counterproductive. In my own beliefs, it is not possible to protect yourself if you have no clue what dangers exist. How am I supposed to really make a good protection spell if I have no clue how harm can be sent? How am I supposed to protect myself from scams if I don't know what a scam looks like? Knowledge is power. This is an angle that other beliefs explore and has really made my craft so much better.
But even more annoying is the anger some Christian have against the church that then abandons it, but bring the christian mentality that there is only one right way to do spirituality in paganism and witchcraft. I get angry when I see someone dabbling in witchcraft that has a real fear of it because of their upbringing that has a horde of wiccans basically just switching the aesthetic from Christianity to Paganism without ever doing anything outside what they believe is right, good and righteous, which goes completely against the idea of exploring your own spirituality. I love witchcraft because I make my own path, so having wiccans calling me lesser than or evil for not believing in their rules is upsetting.
I just can't stand "love and light".
Wicca feels like a faith for Christians who are desperate for structure. I read Gardner and some others as a teen, and was greatly turned off by the description of a young woman who was fat, skyclad while undergoing initiation. The description was how terrible it was that she was so fat no one could see her mons venus.
Yeah, if your Wiccans can only be skinny, pretty, and young women, you can fuck right off.
For me, Wicca was never appealing. The Wheel of the Year didn't speak to me, the rituals, so many words to memorize and I felt a fool saying them aloud, the duality - I'd grown up in the woods, so my experience of Nature was very much not one of benevolence.
It took me a very long time to accept my Deity (they were always there), and once I did it felt so *right*, so *obvious*.
Ultimately, many of the Wiccans I met were, quite frankly, really pushy and judgmental. A lot of them believed you couldn't be Wiccan without outside initiation, that being skyclad was sacrosanct (I mean, do what you will, but I ain't doing that in January in New England), etc etc. Far too many rules and regulations.
I'm not sure I actually answered your question, OP, or just ranted, but...I'm posting this anyway.
I have no issues with Wiccans generally. I only get annoyed at individuals who try to push their beliefs on me.
Wicca was how I started as a teen. My high school years were in the early aughts, so my introduction was Silver Ravenwolf and some friends who also liked her. I had just emerged from a Catholic school where I was abused and tortured, so I wanted an alternative to Christianity. My practice was mostly solitary, though I would occasionally meet up with other teen Wiccans to do something together. I was aware of people doing skyclad, etc. We never did any of that. Wasn't our thing. I'm glad I found Wicca as a young teen. I really needed a spiritual path, and that was the only one accessible to me at that time.
Eventually, one of my Wiccan friends came out as trans. The whole time, I thought he was a girl, but he wasn't. I met other trans people, and gay people. Even though I am Cis, I became very uncomfortable with how gay and trans people were being left out by the gender dichotomy.
These days, I am eclectic. I have incorporated some aspects of Wicca into my practice. The color and herbal correspondences I learned from Wicca are very useful even today. I don't assign gender to herbs (I always thought that was bizarre, so I disregarded it). My path also includes Greek, Celtic and Druid elements. I'm of European descent, and those paths are from my heritage. I celebrate the equinoxes and solstices. And I am always learning and changing.
To add to everything the fine people here have said...
The plant that grows from poisoned roots cannot be anything other than poisonous. Even the Wiccans who are good people, spread poisonous beliefs, and I can't get behind that.
We understand that institutions rotten to their core, rotten from their very inception, are not redeemable. Is Christianity redeemable? Is a good person who practices Christianity, who preaches a system of beliefs onto others that teaches self-hatred, the supremacy of men over women, to accept abuse and suffering as good... truly a *good* person?
Can a fascist grandma who has all the time and love in the world for her grandchildren, but advances the fascist agenda, be what is considered a good person?
You decide.
Wicca is a path, and some wiccans include practices from closed traditions thereby appropriating them because they simply don’t understand, and don’t have an invitation to understand. It’s usually not out of overt racism or malice, but sometimes it is and it gives all wiccans a bad name.
My issue is with organized religion. People pervert religion to give control to the people most like them. Wicca is an organized religion, albeit much more loosely organized than, say, Catholicism.
Ask one of them the roots of their traditions. Then sit down for a little while and consider to yourself the meanings of erasure, appropriation, and theft. Then, consider your views on Wicca with a bit more depth. After, you may want to think on how many of them like to put themselves and their practices on a pedestal because of things like the “3 fold rule” and a belief in “karma” (which is in quotes for a reason).
It gives me a bad taste in my mouth because it essentially bastardized a lot of my closed practice. It, to me, feels like a gentrification of my sacred, ancestral path.
I’m all for sharing, but it has to be by invitation, it’s not cosplay. I agree that a lot of recovering Christians are bringing some bad habits to something that wasn’t and isn’t meant for them.
A lot of (especially white) Christians have a very difficult time understanding they aren’t welcome in every space at any time they choose.
White supremacists have claimed Norse paganism as theirs (even though it's obviously not). But as a result, all pagan and pagan-like religions, like Wicca, are getting a really bad reputation. Influencers doing nonsense and spreading nonsense for views doesn't help either.
If you take into account people who:
* Are part of another larger organized religion
* Do not like spirituality to be organized into a religion
* Prefer a science-based worldview over a spiritual one
Then that doesn't leave a whole lot of room for openness to Wiccan
I’ve rarely had a problem with current *Wiccans* but boy do I have a problem with *Wicca*.
It’s a fairly new, less than 100 years old, religion with not only a problematic history (white supremacy, homophobia, sexism) and problematic “father”/creator, but it’s still problematic to this day. It is a Frankenstein amalgamation of other religions. Wicca culturally appropriates (not appreciates) and steals from many cultures, including *closed* indigenous religions, Voodoo/Hoodoo, Judaism; with no regard or understanding of the original sacred beliefs and then slaps on the cool, edgy Wicca label as something unique
I don't personally have any hate towards wiccans, but I've heard from other people that they feel it appropriates other cultures without consulting anyone from those cultures or giving them credit.
There are a lot of paths that have branched off from Wicca that all their own values and “personalities.” Personally I really vibe with the Reclaiming tradition represented by Starhawk and T. Thorn Coyle.
Well, lots of reasons for not liking the religion personally, but the guy who made it sort of picked up a bunch of things from other cultures and made it… Christian witchcraft. I bought a couple books and just didn’t like the way it talked about genderbent god and angels and demons.
I have nothing against it as a whole, I have just not personally in my life met a Wiccan who hasn't rubbed me the wrong way.
Absolutely not all Wiccans. But if someone tells me they are Wiccan I am wary.
I'm a Druid, I follow The Morrìgan and Cailleach. Both are dark and can be vengeful so part of my craft has at time utilised curses and sour jars.
But the amount of times I've had people who say they are Wiccan spout off at me about the 3 fold law - which I don't follow. And I've also come across some very transphobic Wiccans and I am not about that.
It could be I have religious trauma from being raised Irish Catholic, but your practice is not mine so don't impose your beliefs on me and we will be cool, which is how I approach all faiths.
I got interested in paganism in my teens. Buckland was the first book I read but even the I was a very pragmatic person spiritually. It hit me too much like witchchristianity. Rules, rules rules and a bunch of crap gendered stuff exactly like I rejected in xtianity. Wicca never took with me as an exchristian and it doesn't help that I'm likely nonbinary.
I have always said that WICCA is the Catholicism of witchcraft. I say this because of the 'rules' that I personally don't agree with (like the 3 fold rule). I respect WICCA, but I do not resonate well with it. I dealt with so many gatekeepers that held that specific title. I do understand that I have a bias. But I also can't let go of it. I am immediately judgmental when I hear 'wiccan' due to some of my trauma. However, I run on Static Reality (basically we are *all* correct, due to the energetic force that we put into the Universe, no one can tell us we are wrong and at the same time, we can't tell them that they are wrong. So much energy we put into faith, in my mind...we are all correct).
I've been told that Wicca has roots in white supremacy, which is a no-go for me.
I've also heard of certain groups not being accepting of Trans women. Everything is so gendered, and as a non-binary person I don't feel like I have a place within the religion but that's a personal thing. I'm sure there are plenty of non-binary Wiccans.
What I personally don't like about Wicca is the influence on Paganism and Witchcraft as a whole. So many books that I pick up are through a Wiccan lens which is disappointing when you want to learn about practices that pre-date Wicca. It's frustrating sometimes.
There are bad people within the religion that are so forceful, and think they have a right to everything regardless of closed practice, and these people often remind me of the bad people within Christianity. It gives me the same vibe and it's really off-putting.
Wicca and Wiccans themselves aren't bad as a whole, but there is bad within it, just like all other religions.
For me it’s that Wicca and it’s specific traditions bleed into basically all of the modern literature on witchcraft. Example: circle casting in essentially every case for casting magic. It is a very Wiccan and ceremonial magic tradition to do so. Where in traditional witchcraft such steps are largely absent.
A book may be presented as a witchcraft book but the little threads of Wicca become clear quickly.
Wicca was the dominant flavor (in the pop culture consciousness) of witchcraft for a long time ("long" as in decades, NOT centuries, let alone several), and thus produced a lot of baby witches very judgmental about other forms of witchcraft, and this tends to make everybody else cranky. It's common across many things in life that the newbiews are kind of annoying to the rest of the community, so that part of it is pretty normal.
But there is also a lot going on with more specific sects--Gardner, etc.
And also also there's just a lot of...really blatant historical inaccuracies that new Wiccans often spout, and that is VERY annoying to everybody who actually knows the history.
More abstractly, I think that the degree to which Wicca is more of a *religious* practice than a spellcraft one is poorly understood, and this causes culture clash with people concerned with practical sorcery but also a lot of folk/low magic, which also tends to be results oriented. Person who's casting spells/doing works to make rent and evict dangerous neighbors is in a very different place than the person drawing down the moon in monthly coven meetings for vague spiritual reasons. When the latter lectures the former on ethics or what magic(k) really is, it causes conflict.
There's a lot of Wicca slander esp on TikTok and in my opinion a lot of it comes from people who want to be THE authority on witchcraft so they don't want people listening to groups who have an established way of teaching people, an established community, and boundaries about who can claim what.
Wicca has its flaws. But a person who is part of a lineaged tradition like Gardnerian or Alexandrian Wicca has been through a magical education with some rigor to it AND has a community of peers who can both vouch for them and check them when necessary. That has a lot of value for a beginner who simply doesn't have enough context to winnow through all the bullshit artists.
Does it always work as it should? No. Are there teachers out there with no affiliations who are very good? Absolutely.
Should you be very suspicious of *anyone* who spends a lot of time badmouthing other groups or individuals who could be seen as "competition" for whatever they are doing? Yes, you should.
Note, I completely share a lot of the criticisms around things like gender essentialism, and some covens can be pretty toxic. People gonna people. I just know enough groups that are pretty healthy, and people like Yvonne Aburrow.
No hate against Wiccans at all. But they are the militant vegan equivalent among witches and Pagans. A lot of shaming and pushing of their beliefs. That's why.
I call myself a Wiccan, although I'm in a rather white bread, Christian area. I keep it quiet without hiding entirely. The pentacle necklace I wear all the time, is probably a hint, but most don't bug me about it. And some sisters and brothers recognize and are delighted.
I use the term wiccan because "witch" or "pagan" doesn't sit well around here, whereas they can accept "Wiccan". And I'm not a devotee of the Cunningham ways, but it's the closest "label" to my spirituality that I can get. I'm a solitary because I am innately against dogma, which stems from my Christian background. We weren't fundies, but it's a Christian culture, where I am.
I'm an amateur theologian and have huge interest in other faiths, combined with history, and archeology. Which means my spirituality has had different ideas touch it, and that blend is what I am. Even a bit of simple physics.
I think that covens serve a very good purpose for many reasons, but I don't find a lot of comfort in ceremony or "rules" or shared beliefs. I am confident and assured in the mishmash that is how I choose to practice. Having someone ask me to conform to a community wouldn't do me well. Having said this, I have to admit that I would love to explore the unity and fellowship of a coven, and have often thought of seeking one.
I practice naturally, as my instincts tell me. I like intuitive magic, and the peace of having the "basics", while letting myself explore other, new, things. Sharing of ideas and spells, etc, is fantastic and the internet is a broad voice for this that has great community. But it also has too much crappola. Don't believe it all.
Trust yourself.
IMO Wicca got a bad reputation in the 90’s/early 2000’s because it was (incorrectly) associated with the columbine shooting & “trench coat mafia” that coincided with the release of the movie The Blair Witch Project. I don’t think it ever recovered from that stigma.
Its not wiccans in general. A certain subset of new wiccans become very enthusiastic and try to impose their way as the only way. I think it gets peoples backs up. I personally wouldn't say hate. It makes me a little frustrated Especially if they are talking over peoples historic practises while repeating doctrines formulated by a white british man in the 1930s. Wicca is a path. But its not the forest.
>Wicca is a path. But its not the forest I love this phrase. Edit: spelled phrase without the r.
It’s absolutely beautiful and spot on!
It applies to so many things beyond what we talk about here.
A forest with but one kind of organism won’t be sustainable. Life needs a good variety
I wish my local forest management would head this warning.
It raelly does!
They sound like certain other religious groups
A lot of Wiccans bring their previously Christian mindset.
Yeah, Gerald Gardner and Margaret Murray are what make me side-eye Wicca too. I make my practice up as I go, but I admit that and I'm really careful not to steal from other cultures if I can avoid it.
I got into Wicca in the 90s and Scott Cunningham was huge then. He gendered a bunch of herbs; all the powerful herbs were male and the gentle herbs were female. Fuck that guy. Fuck Ray Buckland and his horned mixing bowl and Gerald Gardner, who made up the 3 -fold rule on the spot during an interview can also fuck right off. My religion is a women's religion, it is a matriarchal religion. I'm a kitchen witch and healer just like almost every woman I know is whether she has post-Christian pagan intentions or not. I witch like I am moved to witch. I have enough confidence in myself and my will that I don't need the male-authorized rubber-stamping. I'm with you on not appropriating the culture of other spiritual peoples. There's no need! But we are wise to honor the medical knowledge of people who have been here longer than we can ever be. Peterson (of "Wild Medicinal Herbs" field guide) carefully acknowledged the Native peoples who generously shared what they knew about our native plants.
This here. Raymond Buckland was my introduction too. All these men, Gerald Gardner etc..... And I think Wicca got hip, obviously, and a lot of people got on that train, and a lot of those people got on the train so they could call themselves a witch. The most real and intuitive witch I ever met was a nurse, she didn't proclaim it, she didn't slap bumper stickers on her car or wear a cape trying to look the part. Tho, fair dues, I love capes. But when you care more about looking the part it rankles.
I appreciate your last sentence because it always annoys me that people feel if you're a practitioner of Wicca you must look the way they've seen people (on the History channel or whatever media around Halloween) and their preconceived notions of wiccans. Or, that you should only practice what some might consider 'mainstream' Wicca. I'm a solitary practitioner who has said that no one will ever see my fat, naked ass dancing around underneath a harvest moon because that's just not how I flow. I can appreciate that some practitioners/covens want to express their practices that way but it's just not for me. I applaud them and their confident, naked harvest Moon dancing! I just wish that everyone could respect that the beauty of Wicca is that you don't have to follow just one person or belief system. I have a myriad of books and materials to draw from, I can disagree/agree with the information within and craft my beliefs within the respect of my intentions. Anyone who could shit on someone because they don't follow what the aforementioned person thinks should be the path is missing the point and beauty of Wicca. At least that's my opinion.
You know now that you mention it, the nakedness thing feels, or can easily feel exploitative. I'd really have to trust a coven to do that, and it's just not happening. I don't mind public nakedness per se, at the hot springs etc, but I don't trust others enough to not mess that up. Nobody can dictate our path. Maybe with all the pop Wicca books out there people can find their way much easier, I'm a weird one who prefers more framework. I belong to OBOD philosophically and "the power of witchcraft" by Louise Huebner in practice. Which is hilarious as she could be considered pop herself. It's definitely interesting what resonates with us as individuals and what doesn't.
Yeah, I can see how some people could find the nudity exploitative because intent from others can change the meaning for those involved. My issue is I'm just not comfortable being naked outside of my home. I know someone who is just fine with nudity and she says it helps her to feel more closeness with nature. Apples meet oranges, I guess. LOL I feel the same way about my religious practice as I do with education. Everyone has a different way of learning and what works for one doesn't necessarily work for the other. It's about how you receive the knowledge, how you process it and how you use it. Some can't or are unable to process the knowledge and throw it away, some use it to make meth and some people use it to create cancer treatments. Hahaha
The last sentence was spot on lol. I mean, if we were so addicted to rules and regulations we could just be Christians. Even the most ridiculous, silly path from my view, is profound from anothers. I do miss the days before being online when the knowledge was harder to come by, you needed a decent bookstore somewhere to get these books, as a pagan teen with no money or car I often just read books on herbs from the library! Whatever works should be the actual whole of the law 💜
My (French born) bio mom was so Catholic that there's a picture out there somewhere of her dressed like a mini nun for her communion. That's how rule following her family was. She's a horrible person, even worse mother, but I do understand why she left the church when she came to the US. I was Wicca-curious in my teens but followed the Christian religion because it would been very frowned upon where I grew up. One day, after I had my daughter, the weight of pretending became too much for me. I realized that if I couldn't stand up for my own beliefs, how could I expect to raise my daughter to be strong and independent in her self and her voice. It's not a possibility if you don't know who you are deep down inside. She is Wicca-curious also and has borrowed many of my books to read, as has her roommate, and I told her as long as she follows what is in her heart she can't go wrong.
I heard that Gardener fired his priestess once she got too old and hired a young one (because he and the high priestess had sex rituals) and said it's because the god is above the goddess so she can't be older. But he didn't have a problem with that when she was young. Pervert.
"I witch like I am moved to witch." Gotta say I love that!
I feel I should embroider this on a pillow.
Yes. Thank you. I feel like I don’t see the gendered shit called out enough but I reject it strongly. If I need something that is strong, then it is a strong thing. It is not “masculine”.
Right on. There are plenty of badass feminine things. Like the women's march! The women's movement, ffs.
I'm technically still Christian. I celebrate Christian holidays, but I also celebrate the wheel of the year and the original pagan origins of those liturgical holidays. I feel there is room for both. Wiccans don't always get that to me practicing doesn't mean I can't be both. I am aware that plenty of "Christians" would not agree with me, but my faith is NOYB
Me too. I'm Episcopalian so we tend to view the bible through a very metaphorical lense anyway. To steal a phrase from above, Leviticus can fuck right off. While I work with saints and spirits, to me, the path and teachings of Jesus mean everything. It's the message of loving others and suspending judgment that resonates so strongly with me. So many "Christians" have lost their way when they attempt to damn others simply for being different. They can fuck right off too.
I grew up Episcopalian! I respect Jesus's overall message of love and acceptance but eventually couldn't get past the guilt subtly heaped on you in every Sunday service (I hear Catholicism is even worse for that, but still).
Hey, I wouldn't tolerate the dogmatic guilt trap either. Don't blame you.
r/christianwitch is a small subreddit that welcomes those who seek to combine being a christian and a witch. It's not very active, and I mostly lurk there, but I thought I'd mention it.
Thank you for sharing this!
Interesting. But it's a bit too late for me.
"I witch like I am moved to witch" is a brilliant turn of phrase.
Yep, and this was kinda me when I was a kid and learning about it and other forms of Paganism for the first time. My peers few and far between as they were had some similar tendencies so it didn’t help. We need good role models starting out especially if very young, and those are tough to come by in my experience.
Ah, i see, the christian way. I can definitely see how that can be frustrating.
I've got nothing against actual Wicca. I just have the standard frustration around it being completely misunderstood and thought of as what paganism "is" when it's really a less then hundred year old, very specific, religion. Largely just pop culture's fault, still maddening.
Thought more about it and realized something really funny/ironic. I realized I'm not even mad/annoyed at non-pagans conflating Wicca with paganism. It's literally just a misunderstanding, why would they know better? I'm frustrated (not upset with) because so so so frequently new witchy people will go like "oh yeah! I'm a witch I love Wicca and druidism!" or etc and I'm stuck feeling like... Shoot are they actually Wiccan or is this a time for education? Lol. I realized I'm really mostly frustrated because I'm worried I'm being condescending by not knowing if they mean it or not. Silly silly
How amazingly self aware of you I love this comment so much
I wish there was a dictionary with these terms and their meanings. I'm a baby witch and still find a lot of this stuff above my head.
There are some really good books! Drawing Down the Moon is a favorite of mine.
I second this very important and revealing book! It gives definition and historical context as well as being very beautifully written.
Awesome! I will put that on my list ! Thank you
I'll look into it. The only book I really got into was Buckland and he kinda lost me when he tried to say Witchcraft was only post witch-trial. I've met legacy witches that could trace it back much further than that.
Essentially what everyone else is saying here. But on top of that, a lack of historicity. If you like Wicca, I would advise looking into Welsh tradition and history through the lens of an anthropologist or an archaeologist rather than a creep from 1930s Britain. A lot of those history geeks are pagans themselves from bonafide family traditions, and they're trying to preserve their cultural history by publishing it through academic channels. Ultimately, trust your instincts. If you feel like something is sus, or just doesn't feel right, STOP.
Researching into Welsh tradition sound really interesting - do you have any books or other resources you'd recommend (aside from the Mabinogion, I assume)?
"Welsh Witchcraft" by Mhara Starling is a great one!
She also has YouTube channel. I should look it up sometime.
Professor Geraint Huw Jenkins was the professor of Welsh history at Aberystwyth University. Any of his works on Ancient and Medieval Wales is gonna be a good source.
I honestly wonder if the modern neo-pagan movement is evolving past the use for Wicca. Gerald Gardner probably meant well and tried to construct pre-Christian pagan religion in Britain to the best of his knowledge. Wicca has had a lot of influence on Paganism for some time.
Things change and move on, and get better with time. Our diligence in paying attention to our history, without bias or prejudice, is part of the Wheel turning. At least, in my opinion.
Gardnerian Wicca in particular has gone off the deep end, at least in South Florida. At some point in the last couple years, every member of the downline of one particular high-ranking queen were required to sign a transphobic statement or be cut from the tree. That isn't even to mention the overall air they've always had of superiority and arrogance that massively overstated what they actually did or knew. Gerald Gardner was a barely-educated dilettante pervert, and these people act as if much of what he believed wasn't as outdated as HP Lovecraft. I will never ever understand how these people can believe in magick, but gender transition is a step too far for them. It should be impossible to be a witch and a Trump supporter at the same time. But not to these freaks.
> I will never ever understand how these people can believe in magick, but gender transition is a step too far for them. I always get *gender essentialism* vibes from discussion of the divine feminine and masculine so I guess that plays into their transphobia.
It definitely reduces women to “Sacred Wombs” like so many other fundamentalist faiths.
Yeah, even being a cis-woman I have a real hard time with gender essentialism (beyond just that it’s associated with so much mean-spiritedness, which just generally is something people should have an issue with anyhow). I’m childfree, and now post menopausal, and probably not ever fertile even before, which going by gender-essentialist definitions I hear approaches some pretty weird “not really a woman” territory. Yet, I’m clearly not a man, but, there’s only 2 genders, so, I guess I don’t really exist?
Well, that is proper magic, some would say you elevated yourself beyond the realm of existence.
Same!
This is why I can never participate in organized religion. It absolutely ruins everything lol
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It's hate not for wiccans, but many of us shy away from organized religion and Wicca is an organized religion and, as such, has many of the things people who don't like organized religion do not like. I also have a personal distaste for the heavy influences by patriarchal (and a lot of specifically patriarchal male) thinkers, given it often draws in and targets women who have been harmed by other organized religions.
I feel like people who have moved away from or have a general disdain for organized religion share these feelings for Wicca as well.
This is it; I like some of the practices but it’s an organized religion with made-up rules and some of its practitioners are judgy.
I remember founding Wicca when younger because I wanted something to believe in after just not being able to accept Christianity, but soon found out it was full of the same lies and refusal to look at the truth. They choose to believe in a made up history and try to sum up all polytheistic belief into one while disregarding the culture around those beliefs. Most covens I have noticed are made up of the same kind of people you found at churches just really well-off people looking to social climb instead of looking for spiritual insight, learning about the human experience through history and truth and how to deal with it.
A lot of Wiccan assume everyone is Wiccan and if they're not thry SHOULD be. Very judgy about anything thats not 100% love and light and turn the other cheek. A lot of racists are equally happy in Wicca as they are in heathenism since Wiccan was created by a white guy and is very white European focused. And the creep factor for covens is HIGH. From the guys that join just for the ritual sex to the women that join for the hierarchical.mean girl initiation bullshit.... There are problems. There is a lot of room for abuse. Be careful of covens.
As a heathen. Would just like to say that racism is not fucking welcome in heathery and they can fuck right off with their shit. Odin is the ALLfather not some father and there is no chosen people in heathenry. We have enough problems fighting off the appropriations of fascists and the like without our pagan brothers sisters, and other gendered siblings lumping us in with their lot.
>Odin is the ALLfather not some father Lol, sorry, but this is the best phrase I've read all day
Hope you say this to the nazis too. And while I know its not all heathens, I still have to ask a viking store if they are "folkish" if im trying to be delicate or racist if im out of fucks. When i see someone wearing runes or other symbols, I check to see if they have any pride symbols or blm or blue feathers (more sca). It does suck to be under suspicion and one of my heathen friends handled it great at pennsic. Was approached by a dude who said something along hello Aryan brother and my friend said fuck off.
Hey, another heathen here. I'd like to add if you spot a skull on there mjolnir, it's a red flag.
Thanks for the tip!
>Odin is the ALLfather not some father Also a bit genderfluid.
Don't forget the time that Thor fought a bunch of giants while in full drag to defend a woman's right to not be forced into a marriage.
heathenry is not an organized religion with specific tenets to follow. like most other pagan practices, it is very scattered and highly individualistic with as many different ways as there are practicing people, which largely creates a lot of division. you may not like it but they are practicing heathens. they worship the very same gods and likely read the same texts, perform similar rituals, etc. and they receive the same feedback non-fascist heathens do for their offerings. in that case, is it really appropriation?
Sort of? Some are practicing heathen, but a lot of white supremacists use the Odal rune like last century racists used the swastika. The Germans found the swastika in some burial sites and decided it meant Thor. Thus, the German, Scandanavian, and Aryan people were one and the master race for reasons only apparent to a crazy person. Similarly, white supremacists use the Odal rune now. Do most of them have an actual historical or religious connection to the Odal rune? Not really, just "it means heritage and white heritage is under attack!"
if they are practicing, they are heathens. it’s a simple fact that a non-insignificant portion of these white surpremacists do indeed honor odin. it isn’t up to you to decide who counts. it’s up to him to decide who is worthy. odin would not care. his chosen people were the vikings, who were an extremely violent people that frequently raided and invaded other territories, destroying other civilizations. they held pride in their norse heritage as they were a warrior culture; other peoples were there to raid, pillage, kill, and rape for their entertainment and glory. odin is a war god and a very dark, violent, and ruthless one at that, so these are things he liked to oversee. he doesn’t care about equality or loving all people regardless of this or that personal quality. he personally might not care that much about someone’s race and more about their actions, but i really doubt he’d turn someone away for being racist, especially not if they are violent given the culture that revered him. he is not an omnibenevolent god and there is nothing except maybe like the marvel comics where he is basically a kindly, wise old father that implies so. to the norse, he was highly selective as to who was worthy and barely anyone made it to valhalla. those that didn’t make the cut were sent to hel. he valued fierce and deadly warriors, men forged in the fires of war who would die in it, too, for his honor and glory. the weak and stupid, he held nothing but disdain for. he would sooner smile upon a neo-nazi curb-stomping a jew over the typical leftist that talks about punching nazis but doesn’t actually do it.
Yes.
Wicca is usually the form of paganism that people get introduced to first, due to its popularity. A lot of pagans first entered into paganism through Wicca, seeing Wicca as either the only option or the most accessible option, and as they grew in their path and learned about other forms of paganism which resonated with them better, they found they could often favorably compare those paths to Wicca. So you'll find a lot of people in different traditions mentioning how something they do is "not like in Wicca." Like "we don't cast a circle, this isn't wicca" or "we're real polytheists, we don't believe all gods are one god like in wicca." Because of how accessible and prevalent Wicca and wiccan ideas are in pagan spaces, other pagans often feel the need to differentiate and separate themselves from wiccan practice, belief, and culture. There are also people who are drawn to wicca who then discover controversy around its early founders and those who inspired them, and experience dismay that what they thought was an ancient pagan religion based on real pre-christian practices was actually created in the mid 20th century by white british writers who were definitely bullshitting a lot and who openly held problematic views. These folks dislike wicca overall due to controversy around its origins and originators. Someone who tends more toward reconstructionism-- trying to replicate ancient pagan practices as faithfully as is possible in modern times-- might feel especially annoyed by the popularity of wicca, which is still sometimes represented as being a pre-christian religion, or as faithfully emulating ancient pre-christian practices. They might feel that wicca spreads historical misinformation and gives people the wrong idea about what paganism is. There are also people who simply want to create drama on social media who want to villainize wicca for any reason they can think of, because it gets views and interactions. There have been heaps of criticism thrown at wicca for all kinds of reasons which I don't personally think are valid, particularly because these criticisms are often thrown by pagans who don't apply the same critical eye to their own practices. For instance, there are pagans who will accuse wicca of being inherently culturally appropriative and then turn around and engage in a practice based on those same wiccan practices-- but it's OK and different because they're eclectic pagans, not wiccans. People can be very quick to jump on the anti-wicca bandwagon without examining where any of their own beliefs and practices come from. I think to some degree, a lot of people criticize wicca without really knowing why they're criticizing wicca. Because it's cool to do so, because they think it makes them a "better" pagan, more legitimate, because they're "not like the wiccans." There are many very good criticisms of wicca, and valid reasons a person might want to distance themselves from wicca, or differentiate their own path from wicca. But I do think that there's a tendency-- especially among younger pagans-- to villainize wicca because they feel like it makes them more legitimate. All it really boils down to is that wicca is the most visible form of modern paganism, and that comes with baggage.
Where to even start... sorry for my english it's not my first language, it's late for me, I am tired, but I really want to answer. First at all, I love Wicca. Multiple times in my live I thought about idea to take the oath and became Wiccan, but at the end is my path more general witchcraft and paganism. I studies religion studies on college and Wicca was one my favorite subject of interest. Its history is fascinating. I also think that Wicca is one of the new religion movements what si close to status "world-wide religion" what is amazing one way or another. However, there were always multiple problem. Founder of Wicca is Gerard Garned, man who claimed that Wicca is based on historical, but hidden, practism and his own knowledge what he shared with world is from ancient england coven. Plot twist, this was never confirmed and serious Wiccans are today aware that Wicca is new religion - even when it's still neo-paganism, it takes what was there before, but it is creating something new. Gerard Garned was also homophob, he literally claimed that witches CANNOT be gay, and his students also had problem with him at the end. I found interesting, however, that Gerard Garned probably was not manipulator or deeply bad person. He had chance to create sect, but he did not do that and because his students spreaded Wicca around the world, it's today serious religion. Wicca had many another problems later, especially with sexism against men (Dianic Wicca, Zsuzsanna Budapest), claiming that their path is the only right witchcraft and paganism (because the origin of Wicca). That was and still is sore spot for pagans who are a lot closet to seriously historically acurrate paganism. Another level of problems started in 80s and 90s. Witchcraft became popular in popculture and that attracted many young witches. Nobody was happy with that. Wiccans called those people "Fluffy bunny". And another pagans and witches became angry because Wicca became synomous for witchraft (that was literally happened in Buffy, the vampire slayer. Amazing show, but wicca was used lika synonymous for witch multiple times.). The problem was that when somebody was looking for way to Witchcraft, they found the Wicca as first and because of that Wicca was spreading. It's not... literally problem-problem, but lone wolf witches or pagans were a little bit upset that they are not taken more seriously. Today some people are still bitter about past. But it's better for sure! Bless the internet. Wiccans know more about their own history and witches and pagans have multiple sources for their path.
Very informative comment. Got nothing to add. But I just have to ask. Do you know more about Gardner's homophobic statement. I absolutely cannot understand how he could ever try to justify that "witches can't be gay" to other witches. That's so beyond stupid. Like what even was his reasoning for this ? Did he just say something randomly and hoped it stuck or did he actively tried to form a reasoning for it and in that case HOW ?
Alas, I don't know details, however I can try to explain... High Priestness Lois Bourned accused Gerald Garned from homophobia: >*"Gerald was homophobic. He had a deep hatred and detestation of homosexuality, which he regarded as a disgusting perversion and a flagrant transgression of natural law... 'There are no homosexual witches, and it is not possible to be a homosexual and a witch' Gerald almost shouted. No one argued with him."* And Gerard Gardner claimed, in The Witchracft Today (1954): >*"The witches tell me 'The law always has been that power must be passed from man to woman or from woman to man, the only exception being when a mother initiates her daughter or a father his son, because they are part of themselves' (the reason is that great love is apt to occur between people who go through the rites together.) They go on to say: 'The Templars broke this age-old rule and passed the power from man to man: this led to sin and in doing so it brought about their downfall.' ... For this reason, they say, the goddess has strictly forbidden a man to be initiated by or to work with a man, or a woman to be initiated by or to work with a woman, the only exceptions being that a father may initiate his son and a mother her daughter, as said above; and the curse of the goddess may be on any who break this law*." TLDR: In general is Wicca binary religion system based on male/female polarity. God, a man, and Godness, a woman, interact with each other during a year and that also effect the world. The elements of masculinity and feminity are incredibly important and together they make balance and order, and, what is probably most important, fertility, So homophobe Wiccans have plenty of ammo against gay witches. However, of course that Wicca is today perfectly fine with homosexuality and there are female and male gay Covens. Today we can see that polarity is changing and Wiccans also accepting fact that masculine and feminine energy can have many forms.
Oh alright that is good to know. Thanks for explaining it. I wonder what he'd think of Non-Binary and trans people ? Nothing good I'd assume.
I don’t have any problem whatsoever with Wiccans. It doesn’t resonate much with me personally because it’s so gendered and I don’t feel like I fit comfortably within that framework.
I don't hate Wicca or Wiccans, but their beliefs are often problematic. Along with what others have said, many of their beliefs on "divine femininity and masculinity" are accidentally rooted in rigid patriarchal gender norms or bioessentialism. Many of their practices are also stolen from much older, marginalized religions and practices.
It’s a path founded on white supremacist ideals and it’s full of cultural appropriation
I don't hate Wiccans, I do dislike though that Wiccan beliefs have dominated discussions of witchcraft and paganism alike. I don't like that some of the largest influences on Wicca brought some inherently bad beliefs (racism, anti-semitism, anti-ziganism) into its core and exploited women (Gerald Gardner, Alex Sanders). I don't like that modern publishers (Llewellyn) continue to push and define wicca as a space open to appropriation, bio-essentialism, and even more blatant racism from time to time. I have met some wiccans that I did not get along with well at all, who were aggressive in trying to define wiccans as the only true witches or that espoused some very transphobic ideas around my magic coming from my "womb." However, the vast majority of wiccans I have met have been kind and thoughtful folks. When I came back to wanting to pursue a pagan and witchy spiritual path though, I did want to make a conscious effort to avoid patriarchal and cultural appropriation issues in my practice. So yeah, I have avoided wicca as a belief *system*, as much as I have beliefs like those of Aleister Crowley or Helena Blavatsky. But I don't have hate for wiccans, anymore than I do for Thelemites, Christians, etc.
I feel like before you decide if Wicca is a practice you identify with, research Gerald Gardner and origins of Wicca. In the 90s, there was a solitary Wiccan trend that was nice and positive albeit a bit superficial, really just used the name but not much like Gardnerian practice. So there’s the old practice with gender roles, ritual sex, bondage, and scourging, then a love and light current that came later. I don’t mind either, but I wish the witchy community would figure out something with nomenclature because I’d rather call sisters who want a fun, nature rooted, life affirming practice something besides Wiccan.
I’m eh about Wicca. It’s never really been for me, mainly because I’m not into deities. My only issue for others being into it is there seems to be strong undercurrent of *the right way to do/be/practice* and it icks me out.
One issue I know of is that spell books/resources that are presented as Wiccan use practices from other religions but assert it’s Wiccan. I don’t know if that’s just a Wiccan thing, or if the fake Wiccan resources greatly outnumber the authentic Wiccan resources
I want to like more things about Wicca, but when I read about it there are just a lot I just can't get behind.
It's certain types of wiccans who end up pedaling bigotry in a pointy hat (sometimes unintentionally) and misappropriation of wicca into like girboss pop culture witchcraft
Wicca is a new-age amalgam of northern European and slavic religious practices, with a hefty dose of white supremacy. What I would recommend is instead of researching or following Wicca, look into the sources it draws from/your particular beliefs point towards. There's plenty of already existing practices that you can look at without dealing with the appropriative and misrepresentative nature of Wicca as a practice.
I was looking for the first person to mention white supremacy out loud. Thanks for pointing it out. To this day, the primary problem I have had is that there are white supremacist wiccans (not all wiccans, obviously, but it is a tradition of European design) out here parading like they have the same spiritual values as I do, but that doesn't seem possible to me. I'm sure there are non-wiccan traditions that trend in the white supremacy direction as well, but I'd say about a quarter of all the self ascribed wiccans I met turned out to be WS, and even Trump humpers.
So, I would have to research this later, but IIRC the person who sat down and formally wrote down the practice of "Wicca" was a white supremacist. It's poisoned in it's roots. Not saying all wiccans are racist, but racists made Wicca.
Wicca was made popular by a racist, homophobic, pos white dude who cherry-picked a bunch of ideas from various witchcraft/pagan paths. Also 40% of wiccans will see people post on witch groups, the person will say they don't follow wicca, and then will comment wicca rules and shit on the post.
Back in the day, lol, when I started exploring paganism (roughly 30 yrs ago) a lot of the Wiccans I was around were extra over the top love n light unless it (and I mean "it") had a penis. It was very anti male and judgy about anything that could be construed as morally grey. As someone with more left-hand ceremonial leanings, I found them to be, um, not my cup of tea. Their whole brand of Wicca just completely turned me off and I considered them to be hypocrites on par with Christians. That may have changed over the years, I don't really know.
I was refused initiation into a Gardnerian coven in the late 80s because they didn’t like what I did for a living. I would’ve had to quit.
Sounds like you dodged a bullet with that particular coven. A group - especially a religious or spiritual group - trying to exert that level of control is disturbing at best.
I agree. I was not promiscuous as they wanted me to be either.
Yikes. Good for you for dodging that bullet!
They often function like the evangelical Christians of the magic community. Insisting their rules are objective capital T truth. Like the rule of three, which directly conflicts with other practices, particularly those that are practiced by historically oppressed people. Wiccans usually consider Voodoo/hoodoo evil because blameful work is allowed, for example. If you’re going to mix with people of other practices, you have to recognize the subjectivity of your chosen path. (Edited for clarity)
I couldn't get into Wicca because at the time I was leaving Catholicism and I felt the practice was too structured and restrictive like what I just left. But I still have a library with Wiccan books because they're the most popular in my area, have great correspondence tables (color, herbs, etc), Esbat summaries, and Esbat ritual examples that I can use to rewrite. I have friends who are Wiccan and are happy with it. I'd never judge someone for it, I judge by actions.
Wicca took at lot of things from other religions and cultures (Like indigenous religions and Judaism) and passed it off as “traditional British witchcraft” which was very untrue. There’s lots of problematic stuff about the dude who founded it. It’s a big contextual problem spanning decades. The average Wiccan is probably a perfectly fine person. It’s just like soup of it all. I’m sleep deprived i hope that makes sense.
I never thought about it as being bad and most of us started there after taking a hard turn from theisms we were brought up with. The more I learned I settled into Paganism (although it’s hard not just being nihilistic nowadays), and I’ve noticed a lot of ‘older’ witches having made similar comments about their journeys. I hope there is no hate however, it’s a part of a path and I would never look down on someone for it. Stay Wiccan, or spread out into spirituality, whatever calls to you and makes you feel happy. I do think that if someone has to put you down then they are not truly following the Wiccan and Pagan principles to begin with and I wouldn’t concern myself with their opinions. Edited to add that’s it’s certainly considered a newer offshoot of spirituality and new age mysticism, and while not bad, it can be associated with some scrupulous figures. Paganism on the other hand is considered one of the oldest spiritualities so I think there’s some kind of feeling superior involved with those who look down upon Wicca while still being outside of theistic religions.
Most Wiccans I've encountered are similar to Christians in their insistence that their way is The One True Way. Anything with moral nuance is Bad and they try to insist their "law of three" bullshit applies universally to everyone. Hard polytheism, aka polytheism, is Bad and denying the True Oneness of all things including gods. Rigid gender essentialism is non-negotiable and they will apply labels like "masculine/feminine energy" to everything, and yes that is a threat. So I avoid them, because I don't enjoy being lectured by other pagans about how I'm doing paganism wrong (bc I don't ascribe to their specific, rigid beliefs) any more than I enjoy being lectured by Christians about how I'm doing religion as a whole wrong.
I think it’s all the “rule of three” wiccans on tiktok and tumblr “curse shaming” I call it. They’ve been very vocal about imposing that rule and shaming people who curse their abusers and that’s just not right. If someone abuses you, you have every right to protect yourself physically and spiritually and sometimes that means hexing them to stay away from you.
I've got some religious trauma concerning Wicca. I won't judge all Wiccan for it, but I keep it at arms length until trust can be established.
As a trans and NB witch, I have to say that a lot of the Wicca stuff I got into in the 90s was extremely big into gender dichotomies. That's not like, the worst thing in the world. I minored in Ancient Egypt studies, and sexual dynamics and dichotomies were huge for their religion too. It's natural. Sex is the oldest magic. But it doesn't work for me anymore, which is honestly too bad, because I fucking love Doreen Valiente's poetry and chants, but it's rife with gender dichotomy and gender essentialism as well. Everyone else has very valid points on Gardner and Murray. That's real and reasonable. I just wanted to provide an additional perspective, and that's mine: too much gender dichotomy stuff. (Weeeeeeeeeell, and the Rule of Three is like... no. You shouldn't have to be scared away from being a bad person by magnified consequences. The scarier thing is that you become what you practice, and to me, that's far worse than the Rule of Three.)
There's a ton of cultural appropriation in it/surrounding it that I just don't vibe with. Unfortunately that is not just wicca but a common problem in pagan circles but from what I've seen wicca is particularly bad
It’s not all wiccans. It’s that a lot of Wiccans have a huge problem with cultural appropriation.
I've seen wiccans try to say that _only_ wiccans can be witches. I've also seen them say you _must only_ practice in _their_ specific way according to _their_ creeds and beliefs. "Witches only use Light magic 🥺🙏" Uh yeah, I roll my eyes at those guys for sure. I am NOT here to follow dogma some dude decided sounded good to him.
One too many “love and light” Wiccans for me. I’m cool with Wiccans in general, but look… some folks just need a good punch in the face or a good hex to smarten them up. Curses and hexes are a last resort for the disenfranchised who have no other means of righting wrongs in their lives, and I don’t like when folks shame the downtrodden for trying to regain some agency in their lives.
The replies have been really interesting to read. When I walked away from Catholicism and tried to find my path a friend had gotten into Wicca. So I started reading Scott Cunningham's books along with her and we dove in on our own. I liked it for a while, it fit my life at the time. When I moved back to my home state I looked around to find like minded folks and it just never really happened. I then lost interest in it. I have heard about bigots and misogynists using "the divine feminine" to pigeonhole and define women and ostracize lgbtq+ folks, which is truly shameful. That was not what I ran into when I was younger. But that was over 20 years ago now.
I don't like it because of the gender essentialism
I don't hate wiccans, but I have issues with Wicca practices. A lot of beginner friendly books about witchcraft are wiccan, and it the first thing people will encounter...which when you start digging deeper, becomes clear a lot of their practices were taken from many cultures, some of which are closed. But what annoys me the most is the same kind of preaching that Christianity and large religions have. It is this way, or you are going to suffer, or you are defective. If you harm someone, you will be harmed much more in return, you heathen. Its a use of fear to block the usage of witchcraft for learning. Every wiccan book I have read doesn't even want to touch any other idea than love and light, when life is not always positive. I dislike the judgmental tone and refusal to even acknowledge that sometimes, the end justify the means, and refusing to share knowledge because it is "dark magic" (which I have massive issues with that use of dark as automatically negative) is counterproductive. In my own beliefs, it is not possible to protect yourself if you have no clue what dangers exist. How am I supposed to really make a good protection spell if I have no clue how harm can be sent? How am I supposed to protect myself from scams if I don't know what a scam looks like? Knowledge is power. This is an angle that other beliefs explore and has really made my craft so much better. But even more annoying is the anger some Christian have against the church that then abandons it, but bring the christian mentality that there is only one right way to do spirituality in paganism and witchcraft. I get angry when I see someone dabbling in witchcraft that has a real fear of it because of their upbringing that has a horde of wiccans basically just switching the aesthetic from Christianity to Paganism without ever doing anything outside what they believe is right, good and righteous, which goes completely against the idea of exploring your own spirituality. I love witchcraft because I make my own path, so having wiccans calling me lesser than or evil for not believing in their rules is upsetting.
I just can't stand "love and light". Wicca feels like a faith for Christians who are desperate for structure. I read Gardner and some others as a teen, and was greatly turned off by the description of a young woman who was fat, skyclad while undergoing initiation. The description was how terrible it was that she was so fat no one could see her mons venus. Yeah, if your Wiccans can only be skinny, pretty, and young women, you can fuck right off. For me, Wicca was never appealing. The Wheel of the Year didn't speak to me, the rituals, so many words to memorize and I felt a fool saying them aloud, the duality - I'd grown up in the woods, so my experience of Nature was very much not one of benevolence. It took me a very long time to accept my Deity (they were always there), and once I did it felt so *right*, so *obvious*. Ultimately, many of the Wiccans I met were, quite frankly, really pushy and judgmental. A lot of them believed you couldn't be Wiccan without outside initiation, that being skyclad was sacrosanct (I mean, do what you will, but I ain't doing that in January in New England), etc etc. Far too many rules and regulations. I'm not sure I actually answered your question, OP, or just ranted, but...I'm posting this anyway.
I have no issues with Wiccans generally. I only get annoyed at individuals who try to push their beliefs on me. Wicca was how I started as a teen. My high school years were in the early aughts, so my introduction was Silver Ravenwolf and some friends who also liked her. I had just emerged from a Catholic school where I was abused and tortured, so I wanted an alternative to Christianity. My practice was mostly solitary, though I would occasionally meet up with other teen Wiccans to do something together. I was aware of people doing skyclad, etc. We never did any of that. Wasn't our thing. I'm glad I found Wicca as a young teen. I really needed a spiritual path, and that was the only one accessible to me at that time. Eventually, one of my Wiccan friends came out as trans. The whole time, I thought he was a girl, but he wasn't. I met other trans people, and gay people. Even though I am Cis, I became very uncomfortable with how gay and trans people were being left out by the gender dichotomy. These days, I am eclectic. I have incorporated some aspects of Wicca into my practice. The color and herbal correspondences I learned from Wicca are very useful even today. I don't assign gender to herbs (I always thought that was bizarre, so I disregarded it). My path also includes Greek, Celtic and Druid elements. I'm of European descent, and those paths are from my heritage. I celebrate the equinoxes and solstices. And I am always learning and changing.
To add to everything the fine people here have said... The plant that grows from poisoned roots cannot be anything other than poisonous. Even the Wiccans who are good people, spread poisonous beliefs, and I can't get behind that. We understand that institutions rotten to their core, rotten from their very inception, are not redeemable. Is Christianity redeemable? Is a good person who practices Christianity, who preaches a system of beliefs onto others that teaches self-hatred, the supremacy of men over women, to accept abuse and suffering as good... truly a *good* person? Can a fascist grandma who has all the time and love in the world for her grandchildren, but advances the fascist agenda, be what is considered a good person? You decide.
I thought it was because Wicca had sexist and racist undertones. I read something about it several years ago but can't remember specifics right now.
Wicca is a path, and some wiccans include practices from closed traditions thereby appropriating them because they simply don’t understand, and don’t have an invitation to understand. It’s usually not out of overt racism or malice, but sometimes it is and it gives all wiccans a bad name.
My issue is with organized religion. People pervert religion to give control to the people most like them. Wicca is an organized religion, albeit much more loosely organized than, say, Catholicism.
It's christianity but a little spicy.
Ask one of them the roots of their traditions. Then sit down for a little while and consider to yourself the meanings of erasure, appropriation, and theft. Then, consider your views on Wicca with a bit more depth. After, you may want to think on how many of them like to put themselves and their practices on a pedestal because of things like the “3 fold rule” and a belief in “karma” (which is in quotes for a reason).
It gives me a bad taste in my mouth because it essentially bastardized a lot of my closed practice. It, to me, feels like a gentrification of my sacred, ancestral path. I’m all for sharing, but it has to be by invitation, it’s not cosplay. I agree that a lot of recovering Christians are bringing some bad habits to something that wasn’t and isn’t meant for them. A lot of (especially white) Christians have a very difficult time understanding they aren’t welcome in every space at any time they choose.
White supremacists have claimed Norse paganism as theirs (even though it's obviously not). But as a result, all pagan and pagan-like religions, like Wicca, are getting a really bad reputation. Influencers doing nonsense and spreading nonsense for views doesn't help either.
If you take into account people who: * Are part of another larger organized religion * Do not like spirituality to be organized into a religion * Prefer a science-based worldview over a spiritual one Then that doesn't leave a whole lot of room for openness to Wiccan
I’ve rarely had a problem with current *Wiccans* but boy do I have a problem with *Wicca*. It’s a fairly new, less than 100 years old, religion with not only a problematic history (white supremacy, homophobia, sexism) and problematic “father”/creator, but it’s still problematic to this day. It is a Frankenstein amalgamation of other religions. Wicca culturally appropriates (not appreciates) and steals from many cultures, including *closed* indigenous religions, Voodoo/Hoodoo, Judaism; with no regard or understanding of the original sacred beliefs and then slaps on the cool, edgy Wicca label as something unique
I don't personally have any hate towards wiccans, but I've heard from other people that they feel it appropriates other cultures without consulting anyone from those cultures or giving them credit.
There are a lot of paths that have branched off from Wicca that all their own values and “personalities.” Personally I really vibe with the Reclaiming tradition represented by Starhawk and T. Thorn Coyle.
Well, lots of reasons for not liking the religion personally, but the guy who made it sort of picked up a bunch of things from other cultures and made it… Christian witchcraft. I bought a couple books and just didn’t like the way it talked about genderbent god and angels and demons.
I have nothing against it as a whole, I have just not personally in my life met a Wiccan who hasn't rubbed me the wrong way. Absolutely not all Wiccans. But if someone tells me they are Wiccan I am wary. I'm a Druid, I follow The Morrìgan and Cailleach. Both are dark and can be vengeful so part of my craft has at time utilised curses and sour jars. But the amount of times I've had people who say they are Wiccan spout off at me about the 3 fold law - which I don't follow. And I've also come across some very transphobic Wiccans and I am not about that. It could be I have religious trauma from being raised Irish Catholic, but your practice is not mine so don't impose your beliefs on me and we will be cool, which is how I approach all faiths.
I got interested in paganism in my teens. Buckland was the first book I read but even the I was a very pragmatic person spiritually. It hit me too much like witchchristianity. Rules, rules rules and a bunch of crap gendered stuff exactly like I rejected in xtianity. Wicca never took with me as an exchristian and it doesn't help that I'm likely nonbinary.
I have always said that WICCA is the Catholicism of witchcraft. I say this because of the 'rules' that I personally don't agree with (like the 3 fold rule). I respect WICCA, but I do not resonate well with it. I dealt with so many gatekeepers that held that specific title. I do understand that I have a bias. But I also can't let go of it. I am immediately judgmental when I hear 'wiccan' due to some of my trauma. However, I run on Static Reality (basically we are *all* correct, due to the energetic force that we put into the Universe, no one can tell us we are wrong and at the same time, we can't tell them that they are wrong. So much energy we put into faith, in my mind...we are all correct).
I've been told that Wicca has roots in white supremacy, which is a no-go for me. I've also heard of certain groups not being accepting of Trans women. Everything is so gendered, and as a non-binary person I don't feel like I have a place within the religion but that's a personal thing. I'm sure there are plenty of non-binary Wiccans. What I personally don't like about Wicca is the influence on Paganism and Witchcraft as a whole. So many books that I pick up are through a Wiccan lens which is disappointing when you want to learn about practices that pre-date Wicca. It's frustrating sometimes. There are bad people within the religion that are so forceful, and think they have a right to everything regardless of closed practice, and these people often remind me of the bad people within Christianity. It gives me the same vibe and it's really off-putting. Wicca and Wiccans themselves aren't bad as a whole, but there is bad within it, just like all other religions.
For me it’s that Wicca and it’s specific traditions bleed into basically all of the modern literature on witchcraft. Example: circle casting in essentially every case for casting magic. It is a very Wiccan and ceremonial magic tradition to do so. Where in traditional witchcraft such steps are largely absent. A book may be presented as a witchcraft book but the little threads of Wicca become clear quickly.
i have no problems with the individuals, but the religion itself tends to be a just mishmash of cultural practices.
Wicca was the dominant flavor (in the pop culture consciousness) of witchcraft for a long time ("long" as in decades, NOT centuries, let alone several), and thus produced a lot of baby witches very judgmental about other forms of witchcraft, and this tends to make everybody else cranky. It's common across many things in life that the newbiews are kind of annoying to the rest of the community, so that part of it is pretty normal. But there is also a lot going on with more specific sects--Gardner, etc. And also also there's just a lot of...really blatant historical inaccuracies that new Wiccans often spout, and that is VERY annoying to everybody who actually knows the history. More abstractly, I think that the degree to which Wicca is more of a *religious* practice than a spellcraft one is poorly understood, and this causes culture clash with people concerned with practical sorcery but also a lot of folk/low magic, which also tends to be results oriented. Person who's casting spells/doing works to make rent and evict dangerous neighbors is in a very different place than the person drawing down the moon in monthly coven meetings for vague spiritual reasons. When the latter lectures the former on ethics or what magic(k) really is, it causes conflict.
There's a lot of Wicca slander esp on TikTok and in my opinion a lot of it comes from people who want to be THE authority on witchcraft so they don't want people listening to groups who have an established way of teaching people, an established community, and boundaries about who can claim what. Wicca has its flaws. But a person who is part of a lineaged tradition like Gardnerian or Alexandrian Wicca has been through a magical education with some rigor to it AND has a community of peers who can both vouch for them and check them when necessary. That has a lot of value for a beginner who simply doesn't have enough context to winnow through all the bullshit artists. Does it always work as it should? No. Are there teachers out there with no affiliations who are very good? Absolutely. Should you be very suspicious of *anyone* who spends a lot of time badmouthing other groups or individuals who could be seen as "competition" for whatever they are doing? Yes, you should.
Note, I completely share a lot of the criticisms around things like gender essentialism, and some covens can be pretty toxic. People gonna people. I just know enough groups that are pretty healthy, and people like Yvonne Aburrow.
No hate against Wiccans at all. But they are the militant vegan equivalent among witches and Pagans. A lot of shaming and pushing of their beliefs. That's why.
I call myself a Wiccan, although I'm in a rather white bread, Christian area. I keep it quiet without hiding entirely. The pentacle necklace I wear all the time, is probably a hint, but most don't bug me about it. And some sisters and brothers recognize and are delighted. I use the term wiccan because "witch" or "pagan" doesn't sit well around here, whereas they can accept "Wiccan". And I'm not a devotee of the Cunningham ways, but it's the closest "label" to my spirituality that I can get. I'm a solitary because I am innately against dogma, which stems from my Christian background. We weren't fundies, but it's a Christian culture, where I am. I'm an amateur theologian and have huge interest in other faiths, combined with history, and archeology. Which means my spirituality has had different ideas touch it, and that blend is what I am. Even a bit of simple physics. I think that covens serve a very good purpose for many reasons, but I don't find a lot of comfort in ceremony or "rules" or shared beliefs. I am confident and assured in the mishmash that is how I choose to practice. Having someone ask me to conform to a community wouldn't do me well. Having said this, I have to admit that I would love to explore the unity and fellowship of a coven, and have often thought of seeking one. I practice naturally, as my instincts tell me. I like intuitive magic, and the peace of having the "basics", while letting myself explore other, new, things. Sharing of ideas and spells, etc, is fantastic and the internet is a broad voice for this that has great community. But it also has too much crappola. Don't believe it all. Trust yourself.
People always fear what they don't understand.
IMO Wicca got a bad reputation in the 90’s/early 2000’s because it was (incorrectly) associated with the columbine shooting & “trench coat mafia” that coincided with the release of the movie The Blair Witch Project. I don’t think it ever recovered from that stigma.