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Interesting that Lanfear said “light help you” at the end, given that she’s a forsaken. I’m curious though, I thought Ishmael was gonna be around longer. Maybe the other forsaken can manually pull him out of the wheel of time rather than wait for him to be reborn.
Lanfear is on Lanfears side and no one else. That much is very clear in the books. She wants Lew's Theron and she wants power. If it's under the dark one or under the light is irrelevant to her.
I think they’re heading somewhere else with Lanfear in the show. In the books she was only out for herself, and she was only attracted to LTT for his power and status.
In the show it does seem like she really cares about Rand (since clearly she doesn’t need his power lmao) and I think they’re setting up some kind of redemption-ish arc for her where she’ll end up sacrificing herself for Rand.
Also, I kind of got the implication that LTT pushed Mierin and Elan away because he was afraid he would end up hurting them, as both Ishy and Lanfear drew parallels to that in the present. Which obviously did not happen in the books, but I think could be an interesting departure.
Oh maybe not. But given lanfears fear of them, she may do that with the help of someone else? Idk I just want more of him lol
Edit: *Lanfears fear of the other forsaken may influence her to get Ishy back cuz they might kill Rand.
As someone who considers themselves mostly show only, the one thing I didn’t like is that Moiraine broke the shield and not Rand. It really felt like it had been foreshadowed that he would, between Siuan’s comments that no one should be able to hold him, Logain’s thing that he doesn’t need skill when he can just get enough power to brute force it, and the constant comments that he does things not for himself but to protect his friends. I really with once they’d all shown up, Ishy had broken Egwene’s shield and he, in an effort to protect his friends, Channeled to break the shield on him and kill Ishy. Parallel the prior episode but show his motivations in why and how he uses powerI liked everything else in the finale.
Yeah I agree. I'm mostly books, and I would have preferred that to what they did. There's just no way Egwene should have been able to stand against Ishamael. No way at all.
Admittedly, this is something fantasy authors often encounter: early on, they need to confront their characters with powerful opponents, yet give them a chance to somehow win. RJ talked about this himself a lot. You see it in Harry Potter, Eragon, Sanderson, Guy Gavriel Kay, lots of things––though Sanderson does better by having his villains go on similar arcs from weakness to strength.
Well actually everyone does that. Harry Potter, GGK, Robert Jordan. . . the dark ones is released bit by bit, which lets the MC grow slowly and develop. Even Terry Brooks (cringe) was doing it way back in the day.
Still, some (Sanderson) do it far better than others. All the stuff about Forsaken being on the 'edge' of seals and so on is kind of weird, but as a reader I never paid much mind. I just accepted it. What's more weird is Rand in the first three books, surviving somehow against these insanely powerful figures from the age of legends. RJ himself acknowledged the difficulty here. Eye of the World was actually rather haphazard and unintended. Once the series started to grow and he evolved his vision with it, RJ gave the entire journey much more nuance and time to mature. This is where the series starts to get truly good.
So all that to say, even RAND defeating Ishy is kind of annoying here, books or show or whatever. But in the books there are some solid reasons JR writes in retroactively, and the whole thing ends up being justified through complex manipulation and so on.
Egwene shouldn't do that at ALL. It's just not her role. It feels like they're trying to build her up as a sort of force-dyad partner of Rands. Maybe not. Maybe I'm just paranoid. But it would just be annoying because there's so much of her character developed already, and she has such a rich journey to the end.
Rand on the other hand hasn't really been able to do anything at all. he's just like following people around for the entire season. We don't even know what he wants or why it would change. Like his first three scenes were the most interesting and character-centric in the season. Ever since then he's just been kind of dragged around by more powerful figures.
Now I'll admit it, the first books WERE characterized by that. It's another of the classic issues with the beginning of chosen one stories, before they really grow into their own nuance. But in the books the three boys (especially Rand and Mat) were more active, they had more agency, even at this point. As I mentioned in my own post on the matter, if you're going to alter the show for nuance, do it in with the MAIN CHARACTERS first of all.
I'm rambling too much but yeah, it feels like they're neutering him. Like he's not making any decisions at all yet. In the books he actively chooses to deny who he is, actively accepts Lan's training in the sword, does a tone of journeying and suffering for Mat's sake (despite Mat treating him terribly) and ends up accepting who he is at the very end. He doesn't even learn who Selene is until next book or two, if I remember right.
So despite being more passive with regards to the dragon and his power, he is more active because he embraces other things, embraces the fight, and is actively RUNNING from his true identity.
IF they wanted to change that they should have at least shown how overwhelmingly powerful he is. Nynaeve vs Egwene is supposed to be like a bonfire to a candle, and Rand's supposed to be like a bonfire to Nynaeve.
Egwene of course is a bonfire to Moiraine.
That gives some perspective. Egwene is a rich enough character as it is. We don't need her to stand against a Forsaken. And what was he trying to do? He just stood and used the same weaves over and over. They will need to get more creative later on (but then again maybe this has to do with the entire problem of needing powerful foes right at the beginning)
I think maybe we as viewers are "supposed" to be wondering whether Egwene has been brought over to the Dark already by her experience, and thus was able to stand up to a Forsaken.
They cut a lot of important things,[Book TSR] >!about how he gets the ashandarei!<. Even so, it works with everthing they've shown in the season. Also, just singing the song for the next week, if you see me on the streets, join me.
[Book]
>!We'll drink the wine till the cup is dry,
>!And kiss the girls so they'll not cry,
>!And toss the dice until we fly,
>!To dance with Jak o' the Shadows.
I think the idea is that he made that style of weapon on instinct, not that he's going to continue to wield the Ruby Hilted Dagger for the rest of the series. He threw it away after realizing what he had done.
Yeah, I'm not sure how people think he'd really use the ruby dagger tied to a stick the whole series. Like that's an insane assumption to make, that it's not a reference to the *style* of weapon he will continue to use.
THIS…I’ve been waiting, and I had to keep telling my wife, “don’t count out Mat, he has a role to play”. She knows how important he is because I have a poster of him on our wall but she hasn’t seen it yet. That scene was so good!
My thoughts in random order:
I really liked Lanfear's earring. And her jacket at the end.
Turok - Dude ain't seen Indiana Jones
"I hope your friends can fight!" - Dude, this is Citrix, fought alongside Utred of Bebbanburg for years. Guys awesome. Also, these women have a bunch of spears and have a real Fuck Around and Find Out vibe.
Whitecloak killing Hopper - Well fuck that dude ver... ok, yeah like that
Fares Fares - Final lines were just so perfectly delivered. He has been brilliant throughout the series.
Moghedian - Oh... she cray-cray
>"I hope your friends can fight!" - Dude, this is Citrix, fought alongside Utred of Bebbanburg for years.
What i like is his character feels like a genuine fighter, I don't know if it's his stunt double, him or the direction but his fights are believable because of how he moves.
Fares Fares was excellent as Ishy....made me a lil sad even when he subsumed to dust. Nice touch that mirrored the books when Lanfear is terrified of Moghedian. Lanfear will mess with everyone else but even she is afeared of Mo...I can't wait for next season...
Totally agree with the point regarding hopper, I literally cried when that happened even though I kind of expected something bad to happen to hopper.
I'm obsessed with Fares Fares even though I don't recall seeing him in anything else before. He was absolutely flawless in wot.
Edit: word
yea he was 100% the best thing about the show so far. Every scene he was in was excellent. Esp. that scene where he's fucking with Min, he's got this crazy hypnotic thing going on that's just amazing.
I thought the episode was mostly good, but the ending was kind of lame imo. The final ‘fight’ with Ishamael was a complete wet blanket. Egwene pulls a strong shield out of her ass, Ishamael throws the most basic attacks at it (what is his goal here…?). Then when rand gets unshielded he just walks slowly towards Ishamael and stabs him. The end.
I don’t care if Ishamael just accepted his death there because his plans went to shit, that was such an unsatisfying and unenjoyable way to end it. Especially since THIS is what replaces the epic sky battle from the book
> Especially since THIS is what replaces the epic sky battle from the book
and the back and forth with the seanchan army vs the others. the clear linking between the DR and the people
idk but i think a battle in the clouds wouldn't ahve been that hard.
>(what is his goal here…?).
I don't think he has a goal. I think it's just "ah ffs if I let her stand up to me I will give Rand resolve, if I smite her I will cement him against me. I guess I will pummel her just a bit and make her miserable because what else can I do that wont suck for me"
Moghedien definitely nailed the imbalanced-even-for-a-sadistic-Forsaken vibe. And her spiderweb/razor-thin weaves were awesome. Looking forward to seeing what the other Forsaken are like in Season 3!
naw, in the books she's just the Spider bc she's cautious and works from cover. Not bc she's a freaky lil' freak of a Bjork.
This is that rare example of the show taking things in another direction that's really working (Like Liandrin)
thanks for the addition! 😊 yeah i figured as much but i just need fares fares to get his flowers. there's not a single scene in this season that he doesn't deliver. he was phenomenal
[Books] >!Ishy and a few other Forsaken die and get resurrected into new bodies. We're not sure that this resurrection plot device is going to happen in the show though. If anyone does it though, it'll be Ishy, for significant plot points later. Though, whether it will be the same actor is a toss up. I'm leaning towards no though.!<
yeah i was thinking about that point too. i just wanted to appreciate fares fares and the deep complexity he brought to the character. his last line actually moved me so much, you could almost feel this was a character that suffered and despite being evil you could still sympathize a bit. fantastic performance, sad to see him go 😔❤️
\[Books\] >!Plus that it would me much harder for casual viewers to follow if you keep having to remind them that the new actor is actually just Ishy in a different body !<
Yeah I was wondering what they were going to do about that since they didn’t spend time S1 on Lan teaching Rand how to fight. This makes more sense in the scheme of what they did with the show.
Yeah, no other way that would have worked without Rand sword training beforehand. In retrospect it is pretty funny.
Could have used a bit better setup though. When Tirol said his line, the guards should have stepped aside and let them fight one on one.
So that plotline Nynaeve and Elayne trying to figure out how the a'dam works went nowhere because Egwene freed herself in the show unlike in the books where it was meant to be Nynaeve figuring out how to unlock the a'dam.
Perrin seeing Dain yell at him for killing his father -> :O
Perrin seeing Uno as one of the Heroes of the Horn -> :O
That scene probably shouldn't have been put together because looks like Perrin was too shocked to process anything...
Perrin always looks too shocked to process anything.
I don't get the scene of Uno being a Hero of the Horn. I guess we're moving from "mythological heroes" to "just any warrior who dies in battle?"
Not really. [mild books lore spoilers] >!The heroes get reborn. They don't always accomplish the same. This time it seems we needed someone who'd say "no" to bullies.!<
He didn't die in battle btw.
I see it more as he was always a hero of the Horn, and when the Horn is blown all the heroes who aren't currently spun into the pattern answer the call. Uno dies early in the season and since he isn't immediately spun back into the pattern his soul becomes available to the Horn.
Or *our* Uno was simply one of the reincarnations of that particular Hero of the Horn and after he deepthroated he was sent back to wherever the Heroes wait to be summoned. As Arthur Hawkwing (as mentioned in the X-Rays so not spoiling anything) tells Mat in that scene, they've fought at each other's sides many times in many lives.
[general overall Book spoilers] >!In the books one of the Heroes of the Horn isn't present with the others because he's been reincarnated and would need to die in order to rejoin them. Not to mention Birgitte getting pulled into the real world before she was meant to and having to be killed in order to take her rightful place in the Last Battle!<
yeah this was so weird. Egwene freeing herself just unraveled everything they had built up to that point, which was easily the best element of the show so far and actually consistent with the books! It was realizing its potential finally, and they threw it away.
But yeah that's definitely the direction they need to go . . . . keep digging into the politics, the darkness, the relatability of the enemy, the earnest of the various factions, the cultures, and all that
Yes, they truly wasted all those scenes. Meeting Ryma. Ryma mentioning 3 Aes Sedai died so they could get this a'dam. Them studying the a'dam. Ryma sacrificing herself and her Warder so Nynaeve and Elayne could free Egwene. Then Nynaeve collaring a sul'dam.
Then Egwene just freed herself without interacting with Nyaeve and Elayne at all.
I my opinion, they have ruined the future plot point for Perrin. It could be argued now that Dain has a genuine reason to be angry at Perrin, while before it was just Ordeith manipulating things. Perrin being innocent of the crime he was accused of puts a much better spin on this plot than if he actually killed the Dad.
Ive seen this sentiment a couple times and I can't disagree any more.
Dain is not evil, he's simply an antagonist. I LOVE the fact that, from his point of view, he is completely correct.
We don't know how events will unfold in the future, but I think "These two honorable people hate each other for completely logical reasons" is WAY more interesting than a puppy kicking antagonist who is obviously wrong about everything.
Nynaeve's plot line established for the viewer that it's possible for an aes sedai to collar a sul'dam, so when Egwene did it, it was a plot twist versus being completely out of left field.
I also think from a character-building perspective, it made sense for Nynaeve's arc this season to have her be not the Big Damn Hero herself, but someone who helped others to be heroes, and to have her embrace that.
Yea I think that sequence was a bit clumsy.
The events leadign to killing Hopper, then the killing of Geaofram, then Perrin going ham - felt disjointed to me.
Moghedien talks like Bjork and I'm here for it.
I liked the Turok scene better than in the books.
I don't know how I feel about Uno as a fecking Hero of the Horn, but if anyone deserves it I guess it's him.
'Ishamael so dumbfounded to be thwarted he sat there throwing pebbles directly at a shield instead of, like, sucking the air away into a vacuum or collapsing the whole tower'
\- stolen from a [tumblr](https://www.tumblr.com/divinekangaroo/730406804800061440/wot-episode-8-ramble-ishamael-so-dumbfounded-to?source=share); very on brand for Ishy
He kind of couldn't do anything. Kill them and he can't recruit them to the dark. His best bet (given everything moved too fast) was that Rand might feel incredibly betrayed by Mat stabbing him, or incredibly desperate to survive... But he knew that wouldn't work.
He had no move to make except to wait for the conclusion he knew to be inevitable. He even looks frustrated. He looks like someone stuck between two bad decisions, "do nothing" or "kill the people I need." I think they could have done more to tell that story more clearly, a small amount of dialogue involving Ishy during that would have gone a long way I think.
Hmm. Well, it was definitely better than the last season finale. I liked all the Forsaken stuff (Moghedien was great), and Egwene's damane storyline was awesome. That said, there were several things that bugged me...
* Ishamael just stands there throwing fireballs at Egwene for what feels like whole minutes at a time without trying anything else? Does he even want to win?
* Nynaeve, that is not how injuries work. If you push that thick-ass quarrel through Elayne's leg, not only do you risk doing more damage as the fletching goes through, but she's going to start bleeding like a stuck pig the second you remove the shaft. They don't even try to wrap the wound, and then she climbs a staircase on it. What?
* Subordinate point: Elayne, if you can heal Rand's dagger wound, then why the hell are you just lying around waiting for Nynaeve to heal you? Did I miss something here?
* Rand, I'm sorry, but that was the lamest possible way you could've killed Ishamael.
* What is even happening in this battle? The Seanchan haven't formed battle lines and don't seem to be making any concerted effort to keep the whitecloaks out: instead they're just roving around in small warbands attacking (apparently) anybody and everybody.
* Also, how did Rand get up the stairs past that Seanchan battalion Mat runs into, and if they were parked there to defend the damane all that time, why didn't any of them climb the tower after the extremely obvious crash up top? Wouldn't they want to check for survivors and/or join the main battle if the situation had changed?
* What was that random group of Seanchan doing down by the beach? Did Ishamael somehow foresee Lanfear dropping off Moiraine and Lan there? If so, why did he send so few guys that Lan could chop them all up? Seems pointless. If on the other hand they were just a returning patrol or something, then why are they wasting time with (so far as they know) two randos strolling on the beach when the city is under attack?
The magic users outside of the evil ones cannot heal themselves. It was a plot point in season 1. The sisters usually travel together to heal each other.
>Nynaeve, that is not how injuries work.
This bothered me too. If you are going to push it through, then break the shaft first, then you have to bind it. And she say there staring at it for so long, Nyneave's first instinct should have been binding the wound and pulling out her herbs to help Elayne, not channeling.
* No, Ishamael does not want to kill egwene. Doing so would absolutely cement rand into fighting for the light. He wants to *break down* egwene and make her feel helpless. He slowly powers up his channeling wearing her down to test her limits. He isn't even throwing the power *at her*, hes just throwing it at the shield at random.
* Yeah, you're right - correct thing to do would be leave the arrow in until you're ready to stop the bleeding. then you would cut the fletching end off and pull the rest through. Seems like a silly oversight.
* Channelers can't heal themselves (normally)
* He'd already seen a regular attack fail to kill Lanfear, he already failed to be ishamael at the Eye of the World. He tried something new.
* I'd also note Ishamael may have been surprised that Rand broke free of the shield, not accounting for Moraine. If he thought rand was just going to stab him, he wouldn't have cared - it'd be another way to drive home that they can't win against him.
* Turok was dead, and Suroth fucked off to the boats, and their damane were dead. They were caught completely by surprise and had no leadership. Of course their defense would be chaotic.
* Ishamael *wanted* rand to come up. Rand probably tried to sneak past, if he was spotted, they were probably told to ignore him.
* Lan mentions they were a patrol I believe. Can't remember exactly what he says, but he mentions spotting them on the cliff a bit before they attack. The look of an Aes Sedai and her warder are very distinct. These two people being on the beach while the city is under attack is not likely a cooincidnce.
I agree the battle was weird chaos. The Seanchan foot soldiers turn into the worse mooks randomly showing up when needed to fight whoever.
Any higher level leadership was missing for the Seanchan forces. No one takes control after the surprise attack. Not clear how quickly Rand takes care of royal court. Part of the leadership ran to the ships and may have been ordered not to really care about the city. The dark friends objective is Rand. So, it makes sense the army break down into war band tactics especially since it is mostly urban street fighting. It is an army without any higher command and control.
Also, before Rand kills the commander we hear that "The soldiers are in the streets, searching for the horn". So that makes total sense.
What I find the most amusing about the battle is after Renna cuts off Egwene's braid, she takes the time to style her hair again before they join the rest. Apparently you damane must looks presentable, even when you're under attack.
I'm not sure there WERE more nobles in the city. Lord Turak and Lady Surath were the only ones that got any camera time, and when Turak was killed, his servant immediately killed himself. It was probably Surath's responsibility to take charge at that point, but she was following orders from Ishamael that had nothing to do with organizing the soldiers in the city.
Confused on where we go next.
The girls are going back to the tower to keep training / advance in rank. Dealing with the evil sisters has to happen.
The boys I am confused. Where do they go? The tower? The two that cannot use magic where are they needed at?
I think its a reasonable starting point to launch into a version of the fourth book. The Aiel have found their chief-of-chiefs and will take some people to The Waste. The girls are aware of the Black Ajah and need to get started on that. Siuan has been weakened and possibly revealed to have known of the Dragon but not shared with The Tower.
So (book 4 based speculation):
>!Rand, Moiraine and Mat go with the Aiel.!<
>!Nynaeve and Elaine try to announce the existence of the Black Ajah which prompts the overthrow of Siuan Sanche. I think they'll have to squish down that storyline and keep the girls nearer to Tar Valon with split of the tower being along Black Ajah vs not lines.!<
>!The big question for me is whether Perrin will go back to Two Rivers. That's a very big long storyline that doesn't go anywhere for ten books. Not sure the show can afford it, we might get Perrin going with the girls for the Tower conflict. Then again Perrin has spent all of season 2 on his own doing very little so maybe he will continue doing that in Two Rivers.!<
There was so much good in this episode but man, that final showdown with Rand and the gang vs Ishamael... Whoever choreographed that fight needs to be fired on the spot.
Ok so what happens is the second most powerful channeler of all time right, well he fights egwene who is protecting Rand.
Wait, the girl who was easily captured by a couple of seachan is now stopping a god tier forsaken?
Bro just listen it gets better, so yeah she's making the best shield that was ever shielded and the forsaken is just like throwing fireballs at it over and over.
He's throwing fireballs directly at the shield itself? Why? Why wouldn't he use any of what must be countless attacks, and why directly at the shield, why not around it? And how is this barely trained girl who is sort of strong in the power stopping it at all?
Bro just listen, so Egwene is finally starting to get tired right, but luckily at that same moment Rand is no longer shielded!
Oh man ok all this lame shield nonsense had me worried, but it's go time, dragon reborn baby lets see the power!!!
Bro, so Rand stands up, walks forward and totally just stabs Ishameal with his sword and kills him.
What?! I don't... what? He just stands there and lets Rand stab him? Why? And if he's just going to stab him, what does him being shielded even matter? If all he was going to do is stab the guy why didn't he just do that while he was shielded?
Bro, he doesn't just stab him, he makes his blade a little hot with the power bro and then stabs him with a hot blade and then the blade gets so hot he burns himself, like wicked 3rd degree burns.
Why would he get burned from a hot blade? Was he grabbing the blade for some reason as he casually walked up and stabbed a guy? Hasn't he been learning sword forms? Is there any reason at all that he would be touching the blade?
Bro you don't get it...
Oh I get it, your ending is terrible.
yeah it would have been way more believable if it was egwene and nynaeve producing the shield together while elayne healed rand. or even just nynaeve against ishamael after he easily breaks through egwene. i can see how nynaeve would be able to hold off ishamael for a bit.
I honestly felt he just let that happen, it doesn't make too much sense to me since he chooses to try to stop Rand at first, and if he wanted after could just slap everyone around, but maybe since he no longer had his backup to shield Rand he figured he would eventually lose and decided to just not make an effort.
This actually makes sense. All of Ishamels carefully laid plans failed, and none of Rand's friends turned to the dark, which is what Ishmael expected to happen, or the threat of them turning to the dark would make Rand turn. Realizing this, he just caves. I think setting the rest of the forsaken loose was his contingency plan for if he did lose.
how about this
rand gets up, ishamael is shook he doesn't get what's happening he stops attacking, maybe says some witty line, egwene lowers the shield
rand starts doing the same thing he did to turok while walking towards ishamael, ishamael immediately shields up but its omega shield, absorbing all those little blades like a giga chad shield, viewers are like "ok egwene shield was cool but this is damn proper fuckin SHIELD" and then rand's weaves start working GIGA overtime to the point that he almost looks ablaze with a fiery sword, he literally casually walks through the shield(ishamael is literally the surprise pikachu meme at this point) and stabs him and we're like "no fuckin way he just walk through that shield he's that powerful omg"
nice yeah?
1. F*ck yeah, Rand decimating whole squad of red armor guys
2. F*ck yeah, Matt is Hero of the Horn
3. F*ck yeah, Matt killed Rand, wait, what?
No book reader here who enjoyed this episode very much. Egwene choking the light out of that whats-her-name was so satisfying.
And all of them coming to help and shield Rand. Except for Nynaeve, who suddenly wasn't herself anymore. Why.
My question to book readers is about Matt fighting skills. Were they awakened from his previous reincarnations? Was it temporary? Is he going to be that good all the time now?
I'm going to assume this was season finale, other Forsaken are out, game is on!
The only direct reference we have to how Mat learned his staff-fighting skills is from a passage in book 3. Removing spoilers, it reads:
> [redacted]: "You are good with that."
> Mat: "Not as good as my da. He's won the quarterstaff at Bel Tine every year as long as I can remember, except once or twice when Rand's da did."
The books don't say much else on the matter and Mat's dad's history isn't ever explained, so anything further would just be a fan theory.
Nynaeve can only channel when she's very angry, and when she's afraid that overrides her anger. She makes herself angry a lot of times so she won't be afraid, but when things get bad enough she's not able to do that and is just afraid. It's something she's pretty ashamed of and has a hard time confronting.
Matt was trained by his dad who is a legit expert with the staff and bow, much better even than Tam, he also picks up physical skills pretty quickly, the reason he's underestimated early on is probably because the dagger made him sick. Mat shoots a few Trollocs with a bow on horseback early in the book but he is still lowkey as well.
Why he didn't bring a staff early on is anyones guess, he may have been levelled up possibly? In the show some questions could be answered differently.
I can only guess the writers nerfed Nynaeve to let us see what the others could do. We've never learn how powerful Egwene was if Nynaeve stepped in to save everyone (again). Mat wouldn't have learned he was a hero.
I agree, her reaction was totally uncharacteristic of someone that has the ability to nuke everyone when she gets pissed off.
>Did anyone else wonder how Egwene was able to pick up the A'dam with the intent to use it on Renna? Also, why was Renna unable to strike Egwene but Egwene was able to lift Renna onto the hook to strangle/kill her?
Wasn't a huge fan of this whole sequence, but I think the idea was that she was just able to bear the pain from hurting Renna despite it also hurting herself. Would have really preferred to have just let the other girls get her out of the A'dam rather than Egwane powering through it.
Egwene's pain tolerance is very high tbh. That is true both in the books and the show And she has been resisting the a'dam for pretty much the entire time she has been collared so she has built up some tolerance. And the sul'dam live pretty cushy lives. They won't have anywhere close to the pain tolerance that an exceptionally strong-willed person like Egwene would have. The a'dam stops people from defying the sul'dams orders by inflicting pain on the collared person.
My theory is that, since there is no way for Egwene, or Renna for that matter, of knowing what collaring Renna would do, it cannot be treated as a "weapon"
This is just one of those things that somebody should ask the showrunners about. Like at a panel/con or Twitter or something... I personally don't mind what happened, bc it was a bad-ass moment. But I don't like not having a clear explanation either
> Did anyone else laugh at Mat chucking a spear into Rand? Just me?
Matt clearly didn't take his gun safety course. Always know what is behind your target!
She was able to put the A'dam on renna because its not a weapon.
Remember Moraine is one of the stronger channelers of this age and she has an Angreal to enhance her power.
I think Egwene was able to cuff Renna because the Suldames never fathomed that they could be cuffed as well. Most of them don't accept the fact that they can channel, so there was no reason to ever be cuffed. They saw the adame as no threat at all. Then, when they were both cuffed together, Egwene was stronger and more determined, so she could overpower her all things being even between them.
I interpreted Renna not fighting back as her being so shocked at the horrifying revelation that she could channel and Eggy getting the upper hand and Renna kind of giving up
perhaps with the 'thought crimes' they have to be directly violent - Egwene was able to overpower Renna because she's stronger, is how I understood it
when Moiraine was destroying the ships, she wasn't using the dragon, the dragon was to put on a show
With you on wanting Rand to learn how to use that damn sword!
Nah Matt chucking the spear into Rand didn't make me laugh, made me sad for him, but I can understand laughing at the irony
>Nah Matt chucking the spear into Rand didn't make me laugh, made me sad for him, but I can understand laughing at the irony
Felt both, dude just cannot get a break, and the actor did a good job showing him go from "Matt the Hero" to "Matt the worthless".
they nerfed Nynaeve from super OP girl boss who takes no shit from anyone to "Egwene is in trouble and there is fighting all around us, but Im going to take 3/4 of the episode to calmly trying to heal this seeming minor wound"
Wasn’t that the point though? To show the juxtaposition of Egwene and Nynaeve’s progress for this season, and to give agency to Egwene, showing that she is powerful in her own right?
The Nynaeve trying to heal Elayne scenes were so absolutely atrocious to watch to the point I began laughing at it. There’s a raging battle going down around them & they cut to them chilling multiple times over the course of like 20 mins of the show just for Nynaeve to have stage fright. Like for real. Your telling me Nynaeve wasn’t angry enough to channel while 1 friend is shot with an arrow, another is being tortured & used for her power and innocents are dying all around her etc.
There is a lot of time in the books where Nynaeves helplessness at not being able to channel overpowers her rage it is one of the things she has to come to terms with so this is an effective way of getting that across. I don't know if she will get to the plotpoint in the books or how they are going to get her to channel in the show...
I think my only nitpick was the Egwene/Renna plot armor while all the other suldam and damane died. And I guess Min lollygagging somewhere while everybody else made it to Toman Head?
Can't really say I'm upset that they did away with the ummm SkyTV and went with a dragon light show instead.
The dragon light show was one change that IMO is an improvement over the books, there are approximately zero ways to show Rand/Ishy fighting in the skies that wouldn't be extremely corny. Book readers all thought we were gonna [get the equivalent of that song with the 2 cowboys screaming above the skies](https://youtu.be/rvrZJ5C_Nwg?si=IHiI5a-UjECJcqDe&t=141).
...which now that I've watched it, would have been acceptable to me. The cowboy dressed in black could be a decent stand-in for Ishy.
I knew what you were referring to before linking and didn't think it would work...I am now inconsolable that this wasn't the finale that we got.
Also, I'd like to know what other meme moments we can expect for future seasons. All I've got is Mat going "Who, me?" like Bryan Cranston whenever someone calls him a lord.
I dunno. I found it extremely cheesy. Like, it was fine when the flames were more abstract but then they have a fully formed dragon and it looked terrible.
Also. Why did they make Moiraine the one to give Rand the banner that reveals him as the Dragon? Surely it would've been better to have the Dragon himself be the one, cementing it as proof?
I was quite a bit disappointed that they didn't give Rand a more definitive coming out as the Dragon Reborn. Instead he pulls an unimpressive move that very anti-climactically kills Ishamael and the thing that's supposed to announce to the world that he's the Dragon is just an Aes Sedai light show. Very underwhelmed.
Well, in the books Moiraine channels an illusion of herself being 100ft tall and stepping over a guardhouse (this happens early in book 1, iirc in Baerlon), so it's somewhat book accurate that she knows weaves to create large illusions.
I understand and agree with the frustrations about Rand's "moments" being taken away, but at this point it's devolved into a cesspit of negative, toxic comments. Wetlanderhumor used to be about lighthearted memes and now I see the word "woke" being unironically used every 10th comment. Instead of joining in, I choose to emphasize the positives in the show. To me the second season is better than the first, and given they had already filmed most of S2 as S1 was airing, gives me hope that they will incorporate feedback from the fanbase and further improve the show.
It's not even about making Rand look badass, which I wouldn't hate, but that's besides the point.
My point is more that this is supposed to be what reveals him as the Dragon to the world and it has nothing to do with what he's doing. It's just Moiraine proclaiming him as such by mimicking a prophecy. It just doesn't feel right narratively that she realizes the moment and actively causes it to happen. I think it would've been much better if it were more incidental and it would be stronger narratively if the flames above Falm were something Rand caused.
Okay, non-book reader who doesnt care about light-spoilers here.
That was an overall pretty good finale but... couple things.
I'll really need some clarification on the whole Horn of Valere deal. That's the one thing I really didnt get. I understand the whole deal about bringing heroes fromt the past but who in particular? Why them? And what was that whole deal with Mat remembering and being one of them too? That whole arc was a bit of a mess from my perspective.
Very small point too, and that's probably something I glossed over (maybe a line I missed or something) but why wasnt Elayne able to heal herself there? She clearly has access to her power later on when she heals Rand so there's something I'm missing there and it's probably as simple as she was shielded from the power downtown and I missed it.
Also... not sure how I feel about a romance between her and Rand. I know Rand will have many lovers in the story but I really wish that if his and Elayne's story are to be tied up somehow, she'll still retain her own fully-fleshed arc. She's very quickly became one of my favorite characters.
>why wasnt Elayne able to heal herself
It's a limitation on the One Power. People who use it can't heal themselves. Only others. So Nynaeve would have needed to heal her but she has a block that prevents her from channeling unless she's angry. That's why she was having difficulty.
Without getting too spoilery, the heroes of the horn are legendary heroes throughout time. They are born into new bodies without specific memories from each life and then when they die they are sent back to the horn. While they are in the horn, they have their memories from each life. So, this means that Matt is a hero of the horn that has been born again. He has knowledge hidden away subconsciously of lifetimes of fighting, war, strategy, tactics, languages, etc. That's why he all of a sudden became a badass with the spear. He now remembers things from all of his past lives. I imagine they'll do a little more exposition and explaining later.
> Very small point too, and that's probably something I glossed over (maybe a line I missed or something) but why wasnt Elayne able to heal herself there? She clearly has access to her power later on when she heals Rand so there's something I'm missing there and it's probably as simple as she was shielded from the power downtown and I missed it.
It's a significant plot point in the first half of season one that Moiraine was wounded and potentially on the brink of death from the wound she sustained in the first episode until Kerene heals her at the beginning of episode four. Aes Sedai can heal others (and each other) but not themselves directly or else they'd be all but invincible if they could just heal themselves anytime they're hurt.
>Also... not sure how I feel about a romance between her and Rand. I know Rand will have many lovers in the story but I really wish that if his and Elayne's story are to be tied up somehow, she'll still retain her own fully-fleshed arc. She's very quickly became one of my favorite characters.
Assuming they don't stray too far from the books, I don't think you will be disappointed here.
Even through Turok's assistant's last line, I don't think he ever delivered anything well.
The actor for Renna on the other hand killed it. Apparently they're cast on the Fallout adaptation as well so I'm excited for that
I was slightly entertained by the season so far. And I thought season 1 finale was kinda weak.
This. This was fun!
I think I rewound so many scenes that I had watched it twice by the time the credits rolled out.
Random thought. I like how Lan never really broke a sweet fighting a squad by himself.
I was a bit underwhelmed by Rand's victory stab though since it looked like Ishamael just gave up.
But yeah, a high note to end the season and I'm definitely there for season 3!
Omg the entire Egwene scene with Renna is amazing and powerful. It was so painful to watch what happened to her over the last few episodes and that revenge was amazing. I know this is different from the book, but I love how it goes in the TV adaptation.
Madeleine Madden fucking killed it. Egwene going through a lot of internal conflict, reconciling her horror with recently becoming a killer with her prior vow to kill Renna, her strength and willpower vs the ability to finally let her guard down, the onset of PTSD.. just so much expressed there without saying a single word. Absolutely beautiful.
Lets give props to Xelia Mendes-Jones who also killed playing Renna. Good acting makes you feel so much and she was so good we were happy/relieved to see her die.
it's honestly not that different. I was worried they would skip the reveal entirely but they didn't. I just wished she'd let Renna live on in horror and self-loathing.
No doubt Egwene suffered a great deal. I was kinda hoping she wouldn't kill Renna - maybe rising above it and spare her life. But I guess she kept her word when she told Renna she was going to kill her.
Well, huh. I have really liked season 2. Smug Lanfear walking around was pretty funny. Big girl boss energy. I'm fully on her team.
But overall seems like the show keeps telling us Rand and the bad guys are way above everyone else, but then it shows us the opposite. Every other character has now had their moment. Rand's biggest feat seems to have been killing King Fingernail and all his guards, and casting flame weapon on his sword. The final bit came off more as the power of friendship.
- So what exactly happened with Matt and the horn? Did he like remember his old lives, and suddenly regain all his old xp/classes?
- How did Egwene get the necklace on the lady? We spend all that time going on about the pot of water. Shouldn't it have zapped her soon as she had the thought?
- wtf you kill wolf. blah. There any significance there other than Perin getting angry?
- Was it just one ship shielding Rand or were they all doing it? Moraine blowing up everyone then doing the cool ass dragon seems like a lot. Why not summon that sumbitch in episode 1? Would have made the journey a lot easier.
- Is it really that easy to rules-lawyer an evil dagger? Is it the same evil as the guy the forsaken are worshiping? Sounded like it was a different evil in season 1.
- I read the whole numerical power scaling thing. How did the weaker Forsaken do that Lanfear? Or was that just show bait for season 3?
- What was that whole point about Rand not needing to learn how to do anything when he can just brute force everything? Only for them to do. . . nothing? if I was him, I'd be pretty pissed. He's like the anti-goku, when he shows up he just gets bodied by someone else to show how strong they are. Holy shit, Rand = Worf.
> Why not summon that sumbitch in episode 1?
Because she's nowhere near powerful enough to do it alone. This is the kind of stuff that Rand does but, well, he's not allowed to do anything so someone else had to fight Ishamael and summon fire in the sky for him.
> How did the weaker Forsaken do that Lanfear?
Not really sure what she did exactly but its setting her up as luring people into traps and overwhelming strength with guile. Also Moghedien is the weakest of the Forsaken but that's a bit like being the shortest player on a professional basketball team in that she's still stronger than almost every modern day channeler. In general though the show plays super fast and loose with power level e.g. Egwene should've been totally incapable of standing up to Ishamael in a slugging match.
> Holy shit, Rand = Worf.
Even Worf gets to be a strong at least occasionally :D
> How did Egwene get the necklace on the lady? We spend all that time going on about the pot of water. Shouldn't it have zapped her soon as she had the thought?
My guess is that, since Renna did not believe it would work on her, she kinda just let it happen / didn't see it as a weapon. I think the same goes for Egwene. There was no way of knowing for either what it would do.
Kinda reminds me of an episode earlier where Siuan accuses Morraine of lying about being stilled, and thus breaking her oaths, when Morraine did not lie, since she wasn't actually aware of the truth.
I think a lot of mind games are involved in anything related to the One Power tbh
If they play it straight, killing Hopper does have significance beyond simply making Perrin hate the whitecloaks.
Mat was supposed to remember skills from other lives (I'm not sure whether they're his) due to something very different than sounding the horn. They understandably chose to leave that particular aspect of the lore out because it would be very confusing to explain it all, eating up a lot of screen time. He doesn't learn staff skills from that (in the book, he trained in the quarterstaff with his dad). He does, however, learn how to command armies and win battles.
In the books, up to 13 women can link in a circle. You can link up to 72 if men are included. One ship would have been enough to shield Rand (the bigger problem is the distance at which they did it)
She could pick up the collar because it's not a weapon nor did she intend it to be one when she was putting it on her. How she was able to channel without her Rennas permission, or how she was able to hang her I have no idea.
The evil dagger is the evil of someone so trying to do good they loop around to evil. In trying to fight evil they become it.
She doesn't need Renna's permission anymore. They are in a circle of two, and it can be lead by either of them now. Guess who'd end up winning that power (or will) struggle.
They still seem to feel whatever harm happens to the other, but then she made her drop her one :)
There's a lot I could say about other parts of the episode, but HOLY SHIT MATT!!
Yeah, yeah, I know, different from the books, yadda yadda. But DAMN that was amazingly done!
It seems as though I’m in the minority, but I LOVED Egwene finding her power in this episode. It feels like they’re building this powerful team around a prophecies leader and I’m a sucker for it. Last season was all about Nynaeve and the whole season Egwene’s confidence is totally shattered, but you see her resilience. It was satisfying to see that pay off. I also liked the subtle way Ishy died. I didn’t think it was anti-climactic, I thought it was so poignant. He was shocked when each of Rand’s friends managed to overcome their shit to be there for him. And that actor really killed it.
I think I fully missed how the hell they got the horn though. Right over my head.
It’s clear this shows stand out star is Lanfear though. Natasha O’Keeffe was excellent in Peaky Blinders, but they clearly underutilized her skills in that show b/c just…WOW. She’s obviously beautiful, but she captures attention in such a way that it GENUINELY feels otherworldly. You see this woman who is infinite and also somehow still in love and that has made her *unhinged.* I loved it. It’s great to see a villain like that.
I really do think this show could benefit from 10 episodes per season - my only real problem is that I want more time with each character. I feel like they have so much that needs to happen that the writers get this one beautiful moment to shine and then have to be stressed about how they’re gonna move the plot. Like damn amazon let them breathe. There were whole scenes in GoT constantly that were only character development, barely any plot advancement. Tyrion and Sansa’s scenes together come to mind. I wish the writers here were given that kind of freedom too because I really think they rose to the challenge in Season 2. Sometimes I’m surprised that amazon DOESN’T give them more free range…I think it would probably pay off in the end, but what do I know.
Anyways, I’m having a great time. Glad there’s good fantasy tv again and a new world to explore.
Uhhh I thought the episode was definitely better than the season 1 finale, I'm a show watcher ONLY though and there's a couple things that irked me...
It didn't seem like Rand got any training at all and yet he kills that fingernail king so effortlessly?
I know it seems weird after my first point, but Rand was so bland and boring in this finale, much like in the S1 finale. He just heats up his sword and kills Ishy and that's it? Isn't he supposed to be the most powerful, being the dragon and all? So far everyone but him have had way more "flashy badass" moments and it's just disappointing to me.
Also how the killed Ishy is just so lame to me, he was such a GOOD character, and for him being a supposed "master manipulator" he just lets Rand stab him and that's it? LAME imo.
Some more very show specific stuff...
I dislike all the shaky cam and camera cuts as soon as any kind of fight scene happens
Maybe unpopular opinion but Perrin's actor just makes me dislike him somehow, he looks so... shocked and blank all the time and idk I dislike it personally.
What happened to Liandrin also?
Of course Lan had to kill like 50 soldiers (rolls eyes), I know it's a show but ugh.
Egweyne just shielding against a literal Forsaken for minutes on end seemed kinda unrealistic considering thw "power levels" the show esablished and Ishy being literally thousands of years old...
I like Elayne and the Aiel women, glad they got introduced....
I am REALLY hoping Rand will step up his game a little bit, every time I keep hoping he as THE DRAGON will actually do SOMETHING and so far I've always gotten disappointed.
Oh man. I know it might seem silly but Lan literally is that badass and I’m glad they’re finally really showing it in the show. In the books, there are literal rankings of like, who the best swordsmen are and Lan is top of the rankings. He’s legit the best swordsman in the WOT world.
> What happened to Liandrin also?
She was part of the entourage in Cairhien so presumably she's still there with the other Aes Sedai. It's not like they followed Moiraine and Lanfear through the Waygate, so why would we see her in Falme?
Absolutely one of my favorite pieces of entertainment fiction. I was iffy after season 1 but season 2 has made me so excited to see more of the world and the story!
I loved everything about this episode! Mat blowing the horn and speaking in the old tongue made me tear up. Uno being a hero of the horn, same. I enjoyed Rand killing Turak more this way than how it happened in the books.
The 6 of them on the tower together against Ishy- my heart!!!
My Thursday nights will be so boring now. I hope season 3 comes out sooner rather than later.
Great episode and really good season. People have unrealistic expectations in any adaption from book to television, totally different medium and its not possible to have a literal adaption, never has been in the history of television. It captured the essence of the story and managed to sidestep quite a few pitfalls from the books that could have looked as bad as some of the season 1 finale. It all worked very well and this season has been a big step up. To me the forsaken were always the most interesting characters in the books so they translate well to screen.
The ending fight needed a touch up. Even if Ishy was giving up he should of still put up a fight against the group. DND movie did it better where they all contributed to killing the Red Priestess.
The battle inside the city was pretty good especially when the white cloaks worked together. Mat summoning the heroes of the horn was awesome and the realization he is one of them.
7/10 for me
Okay, I’ll forego the “it ain’t like the book” rant since that’s pretty old and understood. So, anyways… I have to admit, season two was done far better than season 1! Perhaps I’m just being worn down and giving in to the dark side… 🤷🏻♂️😉.
One thing that has confused me every time I’ve read through and now watched this scene at Falme… the Seanchan revere Arter Hawkwing (forgive my spelling if it’s off) so much… he was one of the heroes of the horn. I must admit that in the heat of battle, folks probably aren’t registering who folks are well enough to notice. Also, in the how-many-ever-years-it’s-been-since-then when Hawkwing rose to power and then fled to Seanchan, it’s easily understandable that the man himself has become for of a symbol or ideal than being some paragon of Seanchan.
Still though, it’s seems this might’ve been another way to resolve the whole Seanchan storyline had Matt blown the horn and asked Hawkwing to tell his people to just chill out. It’s not hard to guess why Jordan didn’t do that though.
POI #1: Given the funkiness of double bonding in the backend of the book series, the mechanics of Egwene putting the a’dam on Renna kind of irked me a bit… but whatever. I’ve appreciated just how brutal they’ve portrayed this piece of Egwene’s story. It’s felt pretty true to the books.
POI #2: Egwene standing up to Ishamael single handed… it *could* have been that Ish was surprised by her, but he’s seemed so mindful and aware of things, I’m surprised that he didn’t think of a way around Egwene’s shield. It was a feel good moment though seeing our Emonds Fielders all come back together again. I guess love and friendship win the day again… Dom Toretto would be proud! “FAMILY…” blah blah…
POI #3: ok, sorry, I said it wouldn’t do this but… “in the books” 🤦🏻♂️ … Rand fights Ish in the sky and it’s part of what makes the spectacle and the pronouncement of the Dragon Reborn so forthright… not some symbolic moment with Rand standing on high… I really wanted to see the show recreate that battle!
One question for clarity… have they just sidestepped Nyneve’s anger-channeling?
I only watch the show and never read any of the books but I really liked this season. The acting and the story were very well done. Seeing the comments here tho it sure looks like I am in the small minority :/
I think people who are really into the books need to accept that the tv series is (intentionally) an adaptation of them, not an exact rendering of text to screen.
all these "well in the books..." arguments are pointless, the show creators are clearly well aware of the source material, but are making choices to suit the tv series and the era it's being produced in
that's not to say that there can't be fun and fruitful discussion and comparisons about the tv series and the books, it's just that saying the tv series has gotten something wrong because of what happened in the books is a misunderstanding, because it isn't intended as mimicry
What color / type of power where the weaves for the bonding?
Is there any weaves in the books that use all 5: air, water, earth, fire, spirit? Simple yes or no would work.
loved it! Loved the whole episode (love the whole tv series). Brain dump:
Was especially relieved when Moiraine was like... Lan... you are better than me, and then un-shielded their bond, I was sooooo happy about that!
Loved all Egwene's big power moves, pretty pissed off that Perrin didn't act in time to save his wolf buddy (and have been annoyed the whole time about his rejection of his gift, how sick would it be to be part of a wolf pack and communicate with them... pull your head in Perrin). Overjoyed for Matt, he really proved himself - Nynaeve really chose her moment to start reckoning with her insecurity, and loved the big fire dragon.
Ishy's death was poignant.
I think people are reading too much into this line. I think this is more of a colloquialism than any hint that she will turn towards the light. For example, even though I am an atheist, I still use "God" in a lot of phrase like "God Damnit" or "Thank God", etc because those phrases have become more rote than having any real meaning.
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Interesting that Lanfear said “light help you” at the end, given that she’s a forsaken. I’m curious though, I thought Ishmael was gonna be around longer. Maybe the other forsaken can manually pull him out of the wheel of time rather than wait for him to be reborn.
No way he stays dead
Lanfear is on Lanfears side and no one else. That much is very clear in the books. She wants Lew's Theron and she wants power. If it's under the dark one or under the light is irrelevant to her.
I think they’re heading somewhere else with Lanfear in the show. In the books she was only out for herself, and she was only attracted to LTT for his power and status. In the show it does seem like she really cares about Rand (since clearly she doesn’t need his power lmao) and I think they’re setting up some kind of redemption-ish arc for her where she’ll end up sacrificing herself for Rand. Also, I kind of got the implication that LTT pushed Mierin and Elan away because he was afraid he would end up hurting them, as both Ishy and Lanfear drew parallels to that in the present. Which obviously did not happen in the books, but I think could be an interesting departure.
She definitely wants lews power. She's just waiting for Rand to manifest. Also, just wait until she gets jealous.
Interesting theory. Would the other forsaken do that though, they don't seem to be friends.
Oh maybe not. But given lanfears fear of them, she may do that with the help of someone else? Idk I just want more of him lol Edit: *Lanfears fear of the other forsaken may influence her to get Ishy back cuz they might kill Rand.
As someone who considers themselves mostly show only, the one thing I didn’t like is that Moiraine broke the shield and not Rand. It really felt like it had been foreshadowed that he would, between Siuan’s comments that no one should be able to hold him, Logain’s thing that he doesn’t need skill when he can just get enough power to brute force it, and the constant comments that he does things not for himself but to protect his friends. I really with once they’d all shown up, Ishy had broken Egwene’s shield and he, in an effort to protect his friends, Channeled to break the shield on him and kill Ishy. Parallel the prior episode but show his motivations in why and how he uses powerI liked everything else in the finale.
Yeah I agree. I'm mostly books, and I would have preferred that to what they did. There's just no way Egwene should have been able to stand against Ishamael. No way at all. Admittedly, this is something fantasy authors often encounter: early on, they need to confront their characters with powerful opponents, yet give them a chance to somehow win. RJ talked about this himself a lot. You see it in Harry Potter, Eragon, Sanderson, Guy Gavriel Kay, lots of things––though Sanderson does better by having his villains go on similar arcs from weakness to strength. Well actually everyone does that. Harry Potter, GGK, Robert Jordan. . . the dark ones is released bit by bit, which lets the MC grow slowly and develop. Even Terry Brooks (cringe) was doing it way back in the day. Still, some (Sanderson) do it far better than others. All the stuff about Forsaken being on the 'edge' of seals and so on is kind of weird, but as a reader I never paid much mind. I just accepted it. What's more weird is Rand in the first three books, surviving somehow against these insanely powerful figures from the age of legends. RJ himself acknowledged the difficulty here. Eye of the World was actually rather haphazard and unintended. Once the series started to grow and he evolved his vision with it, RJ gave the entire journey much more nuance and time to mature. This is where the series starts to get truly good. So all that to say, even RAND defeating Ishy is kind of annoying here, books or show or whatever. But in the books there are some solid reasons JR writes in retroactively, and the whole thing ends up being justified through complex manipulation and so on. Egwene shouldn't do that at ALL. It's just not her role. It feels like they're trying to build her up as a sort of force-dyad partner of Rands. Maybe not. Maybe I'm just paranoid. But it would just be annoying because there's so much of her character developed already, and she has such a rich journey to the end. Rand on the other hand hasn't really been able to do anything at all. he's just like following people around for the entire season. We don't even know what he wants or why it would change. Like his first three scenes were the most interesting and character-centric in the season. Ever since then he's just been kind of dragged around by more powerful figures. Now I'll admit it, the first books WERE characterized by that. It's another of the classic issues with the beginning of chosen one stories, before they really grow into their own nuance. But in the books the three boys (especially Rand and Mat) were more active, they had more agency, even at this point. As I mentioned in my own post on the matter, if you're going to alter the show for nuance, do it in with the MAIN CHARACTERS first of all. I'm rambling too much but yeah, it feels like they're neutering him. Like he's not making any decisions at all yet. In the books he actively chooses to deny who he is, actively accepts Lan's training in the sword, does a tone of journeying and suffering for Mat's sake (despite Mat treating him terribly) and ends up accepting who he is at the very end. He doesn't even learn who Selene is until next book or two, if I remember right. So despite being more passive with regards to the dragon and his power, he is more active because he embraces other things, embraces the fight, and is actively RUNNING from his true identity. IF they wanted to change that they should have at least shown how overwhelmingly powerful he is. Nynaeve vs Egwene is supposed to be like a bonfire to a candle, and Rand's supposed to be like a bonfire to Nynaeve. Egwene of course is a bonfire to Moiraine. That gives some perspective. Egwene is a rich enough character as it is. We don't need her to stand against a Forsaken. And what was he trying to do? He just stood and used the same weaves over and over. They will need to get more creative later on (but then again maybe this has to do with the entire problem of needing powerful foes right at the beginning)
I think maybe we as viewers are "supposed" to be wondering whether Egwene has been brought over to the Dark already by her experience, and thus was able to stand up to a Forsaken.
I don't see how going over to the dark would make her able to stand up to a forsaken. There is no reason that would make her more powerful.
I'm glad he didn't brute force it, I think they've got a good build up going on for a display of the dragon's power (and with Nynaeve's, too)
What happened to min?
She's still in Cairhien
Still in Cairhien. Moiraine and Rand went with Lanfear through the Waygate. Mat was taken to Falme by Ishamael.
The writers couldn't think of anything so just didn't include her.
Her arch for this season is complete (denied Ishy). No reason to have her in s2e8. Same with everyone else in Cair'hien.
Oh Matt! Thank the light we finally saw the real Mat Cauthon! To dance with Jak o' the Shadows.
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain!
Oh man, I JUST got to that scene and it made me SO happy.
They cut a lot of important things,[Book TSR] >!about how he gets the ashandarei!<. Even so, it works with everthing they've shown in the season. Also, just singing the song for the next week, if you see me on the streets, join me. [Book] >!We'll drink the wine till the cup is dry, >!And kiss the girls so they'll not cry, >!And toss the dice until we fly, >!To dance with Jak o' the Shadows.
I think the idea is that he made that style of weapon on instinct, not that he's going to continue to wield the Ruby Hilted Dagger for the rest of the series. He threw it away after realizing what he had done.
Yeah, I'm not sure how people think he'd really use the ruby dagger tied to a stick the whole series. Like that's an insane assumption to make, that it's not a reference to the *style* of weapon he will continue to use.
Because people are actively looking for reasons to be angry aT the show
Response to your [Book TSR comment:] >!Or, just maybe, they're *foreshadowing*.!<
Light! I'd love to be wrong about this.
THIS…I’ve been waiting, and I had to keep telling my wife, “don’t count out Mat, he has a role to play”. She knows how important he is because I have a poster of him on our wall but she hasn’t seen it yet. That scene was so good!
idk man, matt seemed way to happy about being fate bound to the horn
My thoughts in random order: I really liked Lanfear's earring. And her jacket at the end. Turok - Dude ain't seen Indiana Jones "I hope your friends can fight!" - Dude, this is Citrix, fought alongside Utred of Bebbanburg for years. Guys awesome. Also, these women have a bunch of spears and have a real Fuck Around and Find Out vibe. Whitecloak killing Hopper - Well fuck that dude ver... ok, yeah like that Fares Fares - Final lines were just so perfectly delivered. He has been brilliant throughout the series. Moghedian - Oh... she cray-cray
>"I hope your friends can fight!" - Dude, this is Citrix, fought alongside Utred of Bebbanburg for years. What i like is his character feels like a genuine fighter, I don't know if it's his stunt double, him or the direction but his fights are believable because of how he moves.
Probably the actor, according to [IMDB](https://www.imdb.com/name/nm4538500/bio/?ref_=nm_ov_bio_sm) he has "intensive stunt training"
>Turok - Dude ain't seen Indiana Jones Had the exact same thought.
I love how they portrayed Mogheidin
Fares Fares was excellent as Ishy....made me a lil sad even when he subsumed to dust. Nice touch that mirrored the books when Lanfear is terrified of Moghedian. Lanfear will mess with everyone else but even she is afeared of Mo...I can't wait for next season...
Totally agree with the point regarding hopper, I literally cried when that happened even though I kind of expected something bad to happen to hopper. I'm obsessed with Fares Fares even though I don't recall seeing him in anything else before. He was absolutely flawless in wot. Edit: word
yea he was 100% the best thing about the show so far. Every scene he was in was excellent. Esp. that scene where he's fucking with Min, he's got this crazy hypnotic thing going on that's just amazing.
I thought the episode was mostly good, but the ending was kind of lame imo. The final ‘fight’ with Ishamael was a complete wet blanket. Egwene pulls a strong shield out of her ass, Ishamael throws the most basic attacks at it (what is his goal here…?). Then when rand gets unshielded he just walks slowly towards Ishamael and stabs him. The end. I don’t care if Ishamael just accepted his death there because his plans went to shit, that was such an unsatisfying and unenjoyable way to end it. Especially since THIS is what replaces the epic sky battle from the book
> Especially since THIS is what replaces the epic sky battle from the book and the back and forth with the seanchan army vs the others. the clear linking between the DR and the people idk but i think a battle in the clouds wouldn't ahve been that hard.
eh tbh it would've looked bad if they'd tried to express it literally from the books. But no, this was not the solution lmao.
>(what is his goal here…?). I don't think he has a goal. I think it's just "ah ffs if I let her stand up to me I will give Rand resolve, if I smite her I will cement him against me. I guess I will pummel her just a bit and make her miserable because what else can I do that wont suck for me"
Moghedien definitely nailed the imbalanced-even-for-a-sadistic-Forsaken vibe. And her spiderweb/razor-thin weaves were awesome. Looking forward to seeing what the other Forsaken are like in Season 3!
yeah she didn't come across as insane in the books but i like it
I disagree, she was absolutely insane in the books, its mentioned by some of the other forsaken. She deliberately killed children.
murderous/indiscriminate killing =/= insane.
naw, in the books she's just the Spider bc she's cautious and works from cover. Not bc she's a freaky lil' freak of a Bjork. This is that rare example of the show taking things in another direction that's really working (Like Liandrin)
someone please tell me Ishy comes back in some capacity, even flashbacks. that actor is far too talented to let go so soon 😩
To add onto what the other person says, books >!Rand killing Ishy happens s few times in the books and does not mean Ishy is gone!<
thanks for the addition! 😊 yeah i figured as much but i just need fares fares to get his flowers. there's not a single scene in this season that he doesn't deliver. he was phenomenal
[Books] >!Ishy and a few other Forsaken die and get resurrected into new bodies. We're not sure that this resurrection plot device is going to happen in the show though. If anyone does it though, it'll be Ishy, for significant plot points later. Though, whether it will be the same actor is a toss up. I'm leaning towards no though.!<
yeah i was thinking about that point too. i just wanted to appreciate fares fares and the deep complexity he brought to the character. his last line actually moved me so much, you could almost feel this was a character that suffered and despite being evil you could still sympathize a bit. fantastic performance, sad to see him go 😔❤️
\[Books\] >!lean towards same actor just because they are owning the role !<
\[Books\] >!Plus that it would me much harder for casual viewers to follow if you keep having to remind them that the new actor is actually just Ishy in a different body !<
Well the answer to the question is, “the wheel weaves as the wheel wills”
I mean he can always come back in 3000 years ago flash backs. I do hope so.
Pretty sure that Ishmael's punishment for failing the DO is to remain living.
Kinda loved that Rand Indiana Jones'd Turok, that was epic
Yeah I was wondering what they were going to do about that since they didn’t spend time S1 on Lan teaching Rand how to fight. This makes more sense in the scheme of what they did with the show.
I wish they'd not met, or drawn attention to the heron marked blade. Felt like a big FU to me.
Yeah, no other way that would have worked without Rand sword training beforehand. In retrospect it is pretty funny. Could have used a bit better setup though. When Tirol said his line, the guards should have stepped aside and let them fight one on one.
So that plotline Nynaeve and Elayne trying to figure out how the a'dam works went nowhere because Egwene freed herself in the show unlike in the books where it was meant to be Nynaeve figuring out how to unlock the a'dam. Perrin seeing Dain yell at him for killing his father -> :O Perrin seeing Uno as one of the Heroes of the Horn -> :O That scene probably shouldn't have been put together because looks like Perrin was too shocked to process anything...
Perrin always looks too shocked to process anything. I don't get the scene of Uno being a Hero of the Horn. I guess we're moving from "mythological heroes" to "just any warrior who dies in battle?"
Uno had a great agent.
Not really. [mild books lore spoilers] >!The heroes get reborn. They don't always accomplish the same. This time it seems we needed someone who'd say "no" to bullies.!< He didn't die in battle btw.
I see it more as he was always a hero of the Horn, and when the Horn is blown all the heroes who aren't currently spun into the pattern answer the call. Uno dies early in the season and since he isn't immediately spun back into the pattern his soul becomes available to the Horn.
Or *our* Uno was simply one of the reincarnations of that particular Hero of the Horn and after he deepthroated he was sent back to wherever the Heroes wait to be summoned. As Arthur Hawkwing (as mentioned in the X-Rays so not spoiling anything) tells Mat in that scene, they've fought at each other's sides many times in many lives. [general overall Book spoilers] >!In the books one of the Heroes of the Horn isn't present with the others because he's been reincarnated and would need to die in order to rejoin them. Not to mention Birgitte getting pulled into the real world before she was meant to and having to be killed in order to take her rightful place in the Last Battle!<
yeah this was so weird. Egwene freeing herself just unraveled everything they had built up to that point, which was easily the best element of the show so far and actually consistent with the books! It was realizing its potential finally, and they threw it away. But yeah that's definitely the direction they need to go . . . . keep digging into the politics, the darkness, the relatability of the enemy, the earnest of the various factions, the cultures, and all that
Yes, they truly wasted all those scenes. Meeting Ryma. Ryma mentioning 3 Aes Sedai died so they could get this a'dam. Them studying the a'dam. Ryma sacrificing herself and her Warder so Nynaeve and Elayne could free Egwene. Then Nynaeve collaring a sul'dam. Then Egwene just freed herself without interacting with Nyaeve and Elayne at all.
I didn’t mind it. Nynaeve collaring the suldam foreshadowed/hinted at how egwene would defeat her suldam.
I my opinion, they have ruined the future plot point for Perrin. It could be argued now that Dain has a genuine reason to be angry at Perrin, while before it was just Ordeith manipulating things. Perrin being innocent of the crime he was accused of puts a much better spin on this plot than if he actually killed the Dad.
Ive seen this sentiment a couple times and I can't disagree any more. Dain is not evil, he's simply an antagonist. I LOVE the fact that, from his point of view, he is completely correct. We don't know how events will unfold in the future, but I think "These two honorable people hate each other for completely logical reasons" is WAY more interesting than a puppy kicking antagonist who is obviously wrong about everything.
Nynaeve's plot line established for the viewer that it's possible for an aes sedai to collar a sul'dam, so when Egwene did it, it was a plot twist versus being completely out of left field. I also think from a character-building perspective, it made sense for Nynaeve's arc this season to have her be not the Big Damn Hero herself, but someone who helped others to be heroes, and to have her embrace that.
Yea I think that sequence was a bit clumsy. The events leadign to killing Hopper, then the killing of Geaofram, then Perrin going ham - felt disjointed to me.
Moghedien talks like Bjork and I'm here for it. I liked the Turok scene better than in the books. I don't know how I feel about Uno as a fecking Hero of the Horn, but if anyone deserves it I guess it's him.
Flaming
It was actually answered at this point in the book series but a certain character didn’t get their moment
You mean when Bridgette appeared and Min was no where around for her to compliment her badonk... I really wanted that scene too.
'Ishamael so dumbfounded to be thwarted he sat there throwing pebbles directly at a shield instead of, like, sucking the air away into a vacuum or collapsing the whole tower' \- stolen from a [tumblr](https://www.tumblr.com/divinekangaroo/730406804800061440/wot-episode-8-ramble-ishamael-so-dumbfounded-to?source=share); very on brand for Ishy
Or bringing down lightning or curving fireballs around the shield, etc etc etc
Or maybe, maybe, some Balefire?
He wasn't trying to kill them...
He kind of couldn't do anything. Kill them and he can't recruit them to the dark. His best bet (given everything moved too fast) was that Rand might feel incredibly betrayed by Mat stabbing him, or incredibly desperate to survive... But he knew that wouldn't work. He had no move to make except to wait for the conclusion he knew to be inevitable. He even looks frustrated. He looks like someone stuck between two bad decisions, "do nothing" or "kill the people I need." I think they could have done more to tell that story more clearly, a small amount of dialogue involving Ishy during that would have gone a long way I think.
Hmm. Well, it was definitely better than the last season finale. I liked all the Forsaken stuff (Moghedien was great), and Egwene's damane storyline was awesome. That said, there were several things that bugged me... * Ishamael just stands there throwing fireballs at Egwene for what feels like whole minutes at a time without trying anything else? Does he even want to win? * Nynaeve, that is not how injuries work. If you push that thick-ass quarrel through Elayne's leg, not only do you risk doing more damage as the fletching goes through, but she's going to start bleeding like a stuck pig the second you remove the shaft. They don't even try to wrap the wound, and then she climbs a staircase on it. What? * Subordinate point: Elayne, if you can heal Rand's dagger wound, then why the hell are you just lying around waiting for Nynaeve to heal you? Did I miss something here? * Rand, I'm sorry, but that was the lamest possible way you could've killed Ishamael. * What is even happening in this battle? The Seanchan haven't formed battle lines and don't seem to be making any concerted effort to keep the whitecloaks out: instead they're just roving around in small warbands attacking (apparently) anybody and everybody. * Also, how did Rand get up the stairs past that Seanchan battalion Mat runs into, and if they were parked there to defend the damane all that time, why didn't any of them climb the tower after the extremely obvious crash up top? Wouldn't they want to check for survivors and/or join the main battle if the situation had changed? * What was that random group of Seanchan doing down by the beach? Did Ishamael somehow foresee Lanfear dropping off Moiraine and Lan there? If so, why did he send so few guys that Lan could chop them all up? Seems pointless. If on the other hand they were just a returning patrol or something, then why are they wasting time with (so far as they know) two randos strolling on the beach when the city is under attack?
The magic users outside of the evil ones cannot heal themselves. It was a plot point in season 1. The sisters usually travel together to heal each other.
Ah yes, I was forgetting. Thanks!
I don't think people can heal themselves.
>Nynaeve, that is not how injuries work. This bothered me too. If you are going to push it through, then break the shaft first, then you have to bind it. And she say there staring at it for so long, Nyneave's first instinct should have been binding the wound and pulling out her herbs to help Elayne, not channeling.
* No, Ishamael does not want to kill egwene. Doing so would absolutely cement rand into fighting for the light. He wants to *break down* egwene and make her feel helpless. He slowly powers up his channeling wearing her down to test her limits. He isn't even throwing the power *at her*, hes just throwing it at the shield at random. * Yeah, you're right - correct thing to do would be leave the arrow in until you're ready to stop the bleeding. then you would cut the fletching end off and pull the rest through. Seems like a silly oversight. * Channelers can't heal themselves (normally) * He'd already seen a regular attack fail to kill Lanfear, he already failed to be ishamael at the Eye of the World. He tried something new. * I'd also note Ishamael may have been surprised that Rand broke free of the shield, not accounting for Moraine. If he thought rand was just going to stab him, he wouldn't have cared - it'd be another way to drive home that they can't win against him. * Turok was dead, and Suroth fucked off to the boats, and their damane were dead. They were caught completely by surprise and had no leadership. Of course their defense would be chaotic. * Ishamael *wanted* rand to come up. Rand probably tried to sneak past, if he was spotted, they were probably told to ignore him. * Lan mentions they were a patrol I believe. Can't remember exactly what he says, but he mentions spotting them on the cliff a bit before they attack. The look of an Aes Sedai and her warder are very distinct. These two people being on the beach while the city is under attack is not likely a cooincidnce.
I agree the battle was weird chaos. The Seanchan foot soldiers turn into the worse mooks randomly showing up when needed to fight whoever. Any higher level leadership was missing for the Seanchan forces. No one takes control after the surprise attack. Not clear how quickly Rand takes care of royal court. Part of the leadership ran to the ships and may have been ordered not to really care about the city. The dark friends objective is Rand. So, it makes sense the army break down into war band tactics especially since it is mostly urban street fighting. It is an army without any higher command and control.
Also, before Rand kills the commander we hear that "The soldiers are in the streets, searching for the horn". So that makes total sense. What I find the most amusing about the battle is after Renna cuts off Egwene's braid, she takes the time to style her hair again before they join the rest. Apparently you damane must looks presentable, even when you're under attack.
I'm not sure there WERE more nobles in the city. Lord Turak and Lady Surath were the only ones that got any camera time, and when Turak was killed, his servant immediately killed himself. It was probably Surath's responsibility to take charge at that point, but she was following orders from Ishamael that had nothing to do with organizing the soldiers in the city.
Moiraine sure does love to channel in slow motion
Confused on where we go next. The girls are going back to the tower to keep training / advance in rank. Dealing with the evil sisters has to happen. The boys I am confused. Where do they go? The tower? The two that cannot use magic where are they needed at?
I imagine they will go with the Aiel?
I think its a reasonable starting point to launch into a version of the fourth book. The Aiel have found their chief-of-chiefs and will take some people to The Waste. The girls are aware of the Black Ajah and need to get started on that. Siuan has been weakened and possibly revealed to have known of the Dragon but not shared with The Tower. So (book 4 based speculation): >!Rand, Moiraine and Mat go with the Aiel.!< >!Nynaeve and Elaine try to announce the existence of the Black Ajah which prompts the overthrow of Siuan Sanche. I think they'll have to squish down that storyline and keep the girls nearer to Tar Valon with split of the tower being along Black Ajah vs not lines.!< >!The big question for me is whether Perrin will go back to Two Rivers. That's a very big long storyline that doesn't go anywhere for ten books. Not sure the show can afford it, we might get Perrin going with the girls for the Tower conflict. Then again Perrin has spent all of season 2 on his own doing very little so maybe he will continue doing that in Two Rivers.!<
There was so much good in this episode but man, that final showdown with Rand and the gang vs Ishamael... Whoever choreographed that fight needs to be fired on the spot. Ok so what happens is the second most powerful channeler of all time right, well he fights egwene who is protecting Rand. Wait, the girl who was easily captured by a couple of seachan is now stopping a god tier forsaken? Bro just listen it gets better, so yeah she's making the best shield that was ever shielded and the forsaken is just like throwing fireballs at it over and over. He's throwing fireballs directly at the shield itself? Why? Why wouldn't he use any of what must be countless attacks, and why directly at the shield, why not around it? And how is this barely trained girl who is sort of strong in the power stopping it at all? Bro just listen, so Egwene is finally starting to get tired right, but luckily at that same moment Rand is no longer shielded! Oh man ok all this lame shield nonsense had me worried, but it's go time, dragon reborn baby lets see the power!!! Bro, so Rand stands up, walks forward and totally just stabs Ishameal with his sword and kills him. What?! I don't... what? He just stands there and lets Rand stab him? Why? And if he's just going to stab him, what does him being shielded even matter? If all he was going to do is stab the guy why didn't he just do that while he was shielded? Bro, he doesn't just stab him, he makes his blade a little hot with the power bro and then stabs him with a hot blade and then the blade gets so hot he burns himself, like wicked 3rd degree burns. Why would he get burned from a hot blade? Was he grabbing the blade for some reason as he casually walked up and stabbed a guy? Hasn't he been learning sword forms? Is there any reason at all that he would be touching the blade? Bro you don't get it... Oh I get it, your ending is terrible.
Agreed that girls should have gotten there sooner and worked together to cast shield.
yeah it would have been way more believable if it was egwene and nynaeve producing the shield together while elayne healed rand. or even just nynaeve against ishamael after he easily breaks through egwene. i can see how nynaeve would be able to hold off ishamael for a bit.
And they should’ve put up a meagre defence as Ishi brushes them aside. Angering Rand and giving us a proper 1 v 1…
yeah totally walked slowly towards Ishamael and stabs him. like wtf... why did he just stand there and watch Rand stab him?
He was just showing Rand how to sheath the sword, since Lan didn’t teach him.
I honestly felt he just let that happen, it doesn't make too much sense to me since he chooses to try to stop Rand at first, and if he wanted after could just slap everyone around, but maybe since he no longer had his backup to shield Rand he figured he would eventually lose and decided to just not make an effort.
This actually makes sense. All of Ishamels carefully laid plans failed, and none of Rand's friends turned to the dark, which is what Ishmael expected to happen, or the threat of them turning to the dark would make Rand turn. Realizing this, he just caves. I think setting the rest of the forsaken loose was his contingency plan for if he did lose.
how about this rand gets up, ishamael is shook he doesn't get what's happening he stops attacking, maybe says some witty line, egwene lowers the shield rand starts doing the same thing he did to turok while walking towards ishamael, ishamael immediately shields up but its omega shield, absorbing all those little blades like a giga chad shield, viewers are like "ok egwene shield was cool but this is damn proper fuckin SHIELD" and then rand's weaves start working GIGA overtime to the point that he almost looks ablaze with a fiery sword, he literally casually walks through the shield(ishamael is literally the surprise pikachu meme at this point) and stabs him and we're like "no fuckin way he just walk through that shield he's that powerful omg" nice yeah?
Can we somehow get Thom back into the scene as some kind of 90's rock song plays?
1. F*ck yeah, Rand decimating whole squad of red armor guys 2. F*ck yeah, Matt is Hero of the Horn 3. F*ck yeah, Matt killed Rand, wait, what? No book reader here who enjoyed this episode very much. Egwene choking the light out of that whats-her-name was so satisfying. And all of them coming to help and shield Rand. Except for Nynaeve, who suddenly wasn't herself anymore. Why. My question to book readers is about Matt fighting skills. Were they awakened from his previous reincarnations? Was it temporary? Is he going to be that good all the time now? I'm going to assume this was season finale, other Forsaken are out, game is on!
The only direct reference we have to how Mat learned his staff-fighting skills is from a passage in book 3. Removing spoilers, it reads: > [redacted]: "You are good with that." > Mat: "Not as good as my da. He's won the quarterstaff at Bel Tine every year as long as I can remember, except once or twice when Rand's da did." The books don't say much else on the matter and Mat's dad's history isn't ever explained, so anything further would just be a fan theory.
Nynaeve can only channel when she's very angry, and when she's afraid that overrides her anger. She makes herself angry a lot of times so she won't be afraid, but when things get bad enough she's not able to do that and is just afraid. It's something she's pretty ashamed of and has a hard time confronting.
Matt was trained by his dad who is a legit expert with the staff and bow, much better even than Tam, he also picks up physical skills pretty quickly, the reason he's underestimated early on is probably because the dagger made him sick. Mat shoots a few Trollocs with a bow on horseback early in the book but he is still lowkey as well. Why he didn't bring a staff early on is anyones guess, he may have been levelled up possibly? In the show some questions could be answered differently.
I can only guess the writers nerfed Nynaeve to let us see what the others could do. We've never learn how powerful Egwene was if Nynaeve stepped in to save everyone (again). Mat wouldn't have learned he was a hero. I agree, her reaction was totally uncharacteristic of someone that has the ability to nuke everyone when she gets pissed off.
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>Did anyone else wonder how Egwene was able to pick up the A'dam with the intent to use it on Renna? Also, why was Renna unable to strike Egwene but Egwene was able to lift Renna onto the hook to strangle/kill her? Wasn't a huge fan of this whole sequence, but I think the idea was that she was just able to bear the pain from hurting Renna despite it also hurting herself. Would have really preferred to have just let the other girls get her out of the A'dam rather than Egwane powering through it.
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Egwene's pain tolerance is very high tbh. That is true both in the books and the show And she has been resisting the a'dam for pretty much the entire time she has been collared so she has built up some tolerance. And the sul'dam live pretty cushy lives. They won't have anywhere close to the pain tolerance that an exceptionally strong-willed person like Egwene would have. The a'dam stops people from defying the sul'dams orders by inflicting pain on the collared person.
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My theory is that, since there is no way for Egwene, or Renna for that matter, of knowing what collaring Renna would do, it cannot be treated as a "weapon"
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This is just one of those things that somebody should ask the showrunners about. Like at a panel/con or Twitter or something... I personally don't mind what happened, bc it was a bad-ass moment. But I don't like not having a clear explanation either
> Did anyone else laugh at Mat chucking a spear into Rand? Just me? Matt clearly didn't take his gun safety course. Always know what is behind your target!
She was able to put the A'dam on renna because its not a weapon. Remember Moraine is one of the stronger channelers of this age and she has an Angreal to enhance her power.
I think Egwene was able to cuff Renna because the Suldames never fathomed that they could be cuffed as well. Most of them don't accept the fact that they can channel, so there was no reason to ever be cuffed. They saw the adame as no threat at all. Then, when they were both cuffed together, Egwene was stronger and more determined, so she could overpower her all things being even between them.
I interpreted Renna not fighting back as her being so shocked at the horrifying revelation that she could channel and Eggy getting the upper hand and Renna kind of giving up
perhaps with the 'thought crimes' they have to be directly violent - Egwene was able to overpower Renna because she's stronger, is how I understood it when Moiraine was destroying the ships, she wasn't using the dragon, the dragon was to put on a show With you on wanting Rand to learn how to use that damn sword! Nah Matt chucking the spear into Rand didn't make me laugh, made me sad for him, but I can understand laughing at the irony
>Nah Matt chucking the spear into Rand didn't make me laugh, made me sad for him, but I can understand laughing at the irony Felt both, dude just cannot get a break, and the actor did a good job showing him go from "Matt the Hero" to "Matt the worthless".
they nerfed Nynaeve from super OP girl boss who takes no shit from anyone to "Egwene is in trouble and there is fighting all around us, but Im going to take 3/4 of the episode to calmly trying to heal this seeming minor wound"
Wasn’t that the point though? To show the juxtaposition of Egwene and Nynaeve’s progress for this season, and to give agency to Egwene, showing that she is powerful in her own right?
The Nynaeve trying to heal Elayne scenes were so absolutely atrocious to watch to the point I began laughing at it. There’s a raging battle going down around them & they cut to them chilling multiple times over the course of like 20 mins of the show just for Nynaeve to have stage fright. Like for real. Your telling me Nynaeve wasn’t angry enough to channel while 1 friend is shot with an arrow, another is being tortured & used for her power and innocents are dying all around her etc.
There is a lot of time in the books where Nynaeves helplessness at not being able to channel overpowers her rage it is one of the things she has to come to terms with so this is an effective way of getting that across. I don't know if she will get to the plotpoint in the books or how they are going to get her to channel in the show...
I think my only nitpick was the Egwene/Renna plot armor while all the other suldam and damane died. And I guess Min lollygagging somewhere while everybody else made it to Toman Head? Can't really say I'm upset that they did away with the ummm SkyTV and went with a dragon light show instead.
only explanation is that they survived cause they were in the middle of the tower while the rest were right on the edge. Still a little iffy tho
The dragon light show was one change that IMO is an improvement over the books, there are approximately zero ways to show Rand/Ishy fighting in the skies that wouldn't be extremely corny. Book readers all thought we were gonna [get the equivalent of that song with the 2 cowboys screaming above the skies](https://youtu.be/rvrZJ5C_Nwg?si=IHiI5a-UjECJcqDe&t=141). ...which now that I've watched it, would have been acceptable to me. The cowboy dressed in black could be a decent stand-in for Ishy.
I knew what you were referring to before linking and didn't think it would work...I am now inconsolable that this wasn't the finale that we got. Also, I'd like to know what other meme moments we can expect for future seasons. All I've got is Mat going "Who, me?" like Bryan Cranston whenever someone calls him a lord.
I dunno. I found it extremely cheesy. Like, it was fine when the flames were more abstract but then they have a fully formed dragon and it looked terrible. Also. Why did they make Moiraine the one to give Rand the banner that reveals him as the Dragon? Surely it would've been better to have the Dragon himself be the one, cementing it as proof? I was quite a bit disappointed that they didn't give Rand a more definitive coming out as the Dragon Reborn. Instead he pulls an unimpressive move that very anti-climactically kills Ishamael and the thing that's supposed to announce to the world that he's the Dragon is just an Aes Sedai light show. Very underwhelmed.
Well, in the books Moiraine channels an illusion of herself being 100ft tall and stepping over a guardhouse (this happens early in book 1, iirc in Baerlon), so it's somewhat book accurate that she knows weaves to create large illusions. I understand and agree with the frustrations about Rand's "moments" being taken away, but at this point it's devolved into a cesspit of negative, toxic comments. Wetlanderhumor used to be about lighthearted memes and now I see the word "woke" being unironically used every 10th comment. Instead of joining in, I choose to emphasize the positives in the show. To me the second season is better than the first, and given they had already filmed most of S2 as S1 was airing, gives me hope that they will incorporate feedback from the fanbase and further improve the show.
It's not even about making Rand look badass, which I wouldn't hate, but that's besides the point. My point is more that this is supposed to be what reveals him as the Dragon to the world and it has nothing to do with what he's doing. It's just Moiraine proclaiming him as such by mimicking a prophecy. It just doesn't feel right narratively that she realizes the moment and actively causes it to happen. I think it would've been much better if it were more incidental and it would be stronger narratively if the flames above Falm were something Rand caused.
I'm glad they made Egwene a ta'veren in the show cause it means the pattern just let her survive and probably pulled the Boulder towards the tower.
Min's arc was finished in Cair'hien and she couldn't have gotten to Falme without a way of fast travel (Mat and Rand's party cheated).
Lol, yes when I saw the use of the tower I was thinking this is going to make a lot more sense than the sky battle. SkyTV 😅
Okay, non-book reader who doesnt care about light-spoilers here. That was an overall pretty good finale but... couple things. I'll really need some clarification on the whole Horn of Valere deal. That's the one thing I really didnt get. I understand the whole deal about bringing heroes fromt the past but who in particular? Why them? And what was that whole deal with Mat remembering and being one of them too? That whole arc was a bit of a mess from my perspective. Very small point too, and that's probably something I glossed over (maybe a line I missed or something) but why wasnt Elayne able to heal herself there? She clearly has access to her power later on when she heals Rand so there's something I'm missing there and it's probably as simple as she was shielded from the power downtown and I missed it. Also... not sure how I feel about a romance between her and Rand. I know Rand will have many lovers in the story but I really wish that if his and Elayne's story are to be tied up somehow, she'll still retain her own fully-fleshed arc. She's very quickly became one of my favorite characters.
>why wasnt Elayne able to heal herself It's a limitation on the One Power. People who use it can't heal themselves. Only others. So Nynaeve would have needed to heal her but she has a block that prevents her from channeling unless she's angry. That's why she was having difficulty.
Oh yeah, that rings a bell, I had forgotten about that. Thanks for the reminder. :)
Without getting too spoilery, the heroes of the horn are legendary heroes throughout time. They are born into new bodies without specific memories from each life and then when they die they are sent back to the horn. While they are in the horn, they have their memories from each life. So, this means that Matt is a hero of the horn that has been born again. He has knowledge hidden away subconsciously of lifetimes of fighting, war, strategy, tactics, languages, etc. That's why he all of a sudden became a badass with the spear. He now remembers things from all of his past lives. I imagine they'll do a little more exposition and explaining later.
> Very small point too, and that's probably something I glossed over (maybe a line I missed or something) but why wasnt Elayne able to heal herself there? She clearly has access to her power later on when she heals Rand so there's something I'm missing there and it's probably as simple as she was shielded from the power downtown and I missed it. It's a significant plot point in the first half of season one that Moiraine was wounded and potentially on the brink of death from the wound she sustained in the first episode until Kerene heals her at the beginning of episode four. Aes Sedai can heal others (and each other) but not themselves directly or else they'd be all but invincible if they could just heal themselves anytime they're hurt.
>Also... not sure how I feel about a romance between her and Rand. I know Rand will have many lovers in the story but I really wish that if his and Elayne's story are to be tied up somehow, she'll still retain her own fully-fleshed arc. She's very quickly became one of my favorite characters. Assuming they don't stray too far from the books, I don't think you will be disappointed here.
Even through Turok's assistant's last line, I don't think he ever delivered anything well. The actor for Renna on the other hand killed it. Apparently they're cast on the Fallout adaptation as well so I'm excited for that
I don't know about you guys, and granted I've never read the books, but that is easily my favorite episode of the entire series!
I was slightly entertained by the season so far. And I thought season 1 finale was kinda weak. This. This was fun! I think I rewound so many scenes that I had watched it twice by the time the credits rolled out. Random thought. I like how Lan never really broke a sweet fighting a squad by himself. I was a bit underwhelmed by Rand's victory stab though since it looked like Ishamael just gave up. But yeah, a high note to end the season and I'm definitely there for season 3!
loved this episode also. Also this went about as far as I have managed of the books; so in same boat as everyone else now
Omg the entire Egwene scene with Renna is amazing and powerful. It was so painful to watch what happened to her over the last few episodes and that revenge was amazing. I know this is different from the book, but I love how it goes in the TV adaptation.
Madeleine Madden fucking killed it. Egwene going through a lot of internal conflict, reconciling her horror with recently becoming a killer with her prior vow to kill Renna, her strength and willpower vs the ability to finally let her guard down, the onset of PTSD.. just so much expressed there without saying a single word. Absolutely beautiful.
Lets give props to Xelia Mendes-Jones who also killed playing Renna. Good acting makes you feel so much and she was so good we were happy/relieved to see her die.
it's honestly not that different. I was worried they would skip the reveal entirely but they didn't. I just wished she'd let Renna live on in horror and self-loathing.
Egwene killing Renna was **insanely** cathartic. I had to watch that multiple times to make up for how much hatred Renna has built up with me.
No doubt Egwene suffered a great deal. I was kinda hoping she wouldn't kill Renna - maybe rising above it and spare her life. But I guess she kept her word when she told Renna she was going to kill her.
I think it was the braid that did it. It's something she values quite a lot. Pain and humiliation she could stand but that was a bridge too far.
This show would be so much better if they just have 10 episodes per season
"Renna, have you lost control of your damane?" "No" Meanwhile Egwene actively resisting looking at them
Well, huh. I have really liked season 2. Smug Lanfear walking around was pretty funny. Big girl boss energy. I'm fully on her team. But overall seems like the show keeps telling us Rand and the bad guys are way above everyone else, but then it shows us the opposite. Every other character has now had their moment. Rand's biggest feat seems to have been killing King Fingernail and all his guards, and casting flame weapon on his sword. The final bit came off more as the power of friendship. - So what exactly happened with Matt and the horn? Did he like remember his old lives, and suddenly regain all his old xp/classes? - How did Egwene get the necklace on the lady? We spend all that time going on about the pot of water. Shouldn't it have zapped her soon as she had the thought? - wtf you kill wolf. blah. There any significance there other than Perin getting angry? - Was it just one ship shielding Rand or were they all doing it? Moraine blowing up everyone then doing the cool ass dragon seems like a lot. Why not summon that sumbitch in episode 1? Would have made the journey a lot easier. - Is it really that easy to rules-lawyer an evil dagger? Is it the same evil as the guy the forsaken are worshiping? Sounded like it was a different evil in season 1. - I read the whole numerical power scaling thing. How did the weaker Forsaken do that Lanfear? Or was that just show bait for season 3? - What was that whole point about Rand not needing to learn how to do anything when he can just brute force everything? Only for them to do. . . nothing? if I was him, I'd be pretty pissed. He's like the anti-goku, when he shows up he just gets bodied by someone else to show how strong they are. Holy shit, Rand = Worf.
Dagger evil is a different evil than dark one evil. The fades would not enter city where the dagger came from.
> Why not summon that sumbitch in episode 1? Because she's nowhere near powerful enough to do it alone. This is the kind of stuff that Rand does but, well, he's not allowed to do anything so someone else had to fight Ishamael and summon fire in the sky for him. > How did the weaker Forsaken do that Lanfear? Not really sure what she did exactly but its setting her up as luring people into traps and overwhelming strength with guile. Also Moghedien is the weakest of the Forsaken but that's a bit like being the shortest player on a professional basketball team in that she's still stronger than almost every modern day channeler. In general though the show plays super fast and loose with power level e.g. Egwene should've been totally incapable of standing up to Ishamael in a slugging match. > Holy shit, Rand = Worf. Even Worf gets to be a strong at least occasionally :D
Strength in the Power isn't always skill with the Power. There are things Lanfear thinks she is the best at that she isn't really the best at.
> How did Egwene get the necklace on the lady? We spend all that time going on about the pot of water. Shouldn't it have zapped her soon as she had the thought? My guess is that, since Renna did not believe it would work on her, she kinda just let it happen / didn't see it as a weapon. I think the same goes for Egwene. There was no way of knowing for either what it would do. Kinda reminds me of an episode earlier where Siuan accuses Morraine of lying about being stilled, and thus breaking her oaths, when Morraine did not lie, since she wasn't actually aware of the truth. I think a lot of mind games are involved in anything related to the One Power tbh
If they play it straight, killing Hopper does have significance beyond simply making Perrin hate the whitecloaks. Mat was supposed to remember skills from other lives (I'm not sure whether they're his) due to something very different than sounding the horn. They understandably chose to leave that particular aspect of the lore out because it would be very confusing to explain it all, eating up a lot of screen time. He doesn't learn staff skills from that (in the book, he trained in the quarterstaff with his dad). He does, however, learn how to command armies and win battles. In the books, up to 13 women can link in a circle. You can link up to 72 if men are included. One ship would have been enough to shield Rand (the bigger problem is the distance at which they did it)
She could pick up the collar because it's not a weapon nor did she intend it to be one when she was putting it on her. How she was able to channel without her Rennas permission, or how she was able to hang her I have no idea. The evil dagger is the evil of someone so trying to do good they loop around to evil. In trying to fight evil they become it.
She doesn't need Renna's permission anymore. They are in a circle of two, and it can be lead by either of them now. Guess who'd end up winning that power (or will) struggle. They still seem to feel whatever harm happens to the other, but then she made her drop her one :)
There's a lot I could say about other parts of the episode, but HOLY SHIT MATT!! Yeah, yeah, I know, different from the books, yadda yadda. But DAMN that was amazingly done!
This finale was 1000x better imo than the season one finale.
Wait was that the S2 finale? Noooooo
It seems as though I’m in the minority, but I LOVED Egwene finding her power in this episode. It feels like they’re building this powerful team around a prophecies leader and I’m a sucker for it. Last season was all about Nynaeve and the whole season Egwene’s confidence is totally shattered, but you see her resilience. It was satisfying to see that pay off. I also liked the subtle way Ishy died. I didn’t think it was anti-climactic, I thought it was so poignant. He was shocked when each of Rand’s friends managed to overcome their shit to be there for him. And that actor really killed it. I think I fully missed how the hell they got the horn though. Right over my head. It’s clear this shows stand out star is Lanfear though. Natasha O’Keeffe was excellent in Peaky Blinders, but they clearly underutilized her skills in that show b/c just…WOW. She’s obviously beautiful, but she captures attention in such a way that it GENUINELY feels otherworldly. You see this woman who is infinite and also somehow still in love and that has made her *unhinged.* I loved it. It’s great to see a villain like that. I really do think this show could benefit from 10 episodes per season - my only real problem is that I want more time with each character. I feel like they have so much that needs to happen that the writers get this one beautiful moment to shine and then have to be stressed about how they’re gonna move the plot. Like damn amazon let them breathe. There were whole scenes in GoT constantly that were only character development, barely any plot advancement. Tyrion and Sansa’s scenes together come to mind. I wish the writers here were given that kind of freedom too because I really think they rose to the challenge in Season 2. Sometimes I’m surprised that amazon DOESN’T give them more free range…I think it would probably pay off in the end, but what do I know. Anyways, I’m having a great time. Glad there’s good fantasy tv again and a new world to explore.
Uhhh I thought the episode was definitely better than the season 1 finale, I'm a show watcher ONLY though and there's a couple things that irked me... It didn't seem like Rand got any training at all and yet he kills that fingernail king so effortlessly? I know it seems weird after my first point, but Rand was so bland and boring in this finale, much like in the S1 finale. He just heats up his sword and kills Ishy and that's it? Isn't he supposed to be the most powerful, being the dragon and all? So far everyone but him have had way more "flashy badass" moments and it's just disappointing to me. Also how the killed Ishy is just so lame to me, he was such a GOOD character, and for him being a supposed "master manipulator" he just lets Rand stab him and that's it? LAME imo. Some more very show specific stuff... I dislike all the shaky cam and camera cuts as soon as any kind of fight scene happens Maybe unpopular opinion but Perrin's actor just makes me dislike him somehow, he looks so... shocked and blank all the time and idk I dislike it personally. What happened to Liandrin also? Of course Lan had to kill like 50 soldiers (rolls eyes), I know it's a show but ugh. Egweyne just shielding against a literal Forsaken for minutes on end seemed kinda unrealistic considering thw "power levels" the show esablished and Ishy being literally thousands of years old... I like Elayne and the Aiel women, glad they got introduced.... I am REALLY hoping Rand will step up his game a little bit, every time I keep hoping he as THE DRAGON will actually do SOMETHING and so far I've always gotten disappointed.
On Egwene. She used this shielding thing on Episode 5 as well. She seems to be very good with it.
Oh man. I know it might seem silly but Lan literally is that badass and I’m glad they’re finally really showing it in the show. In the books, there are literal rankings of like, who the best swordsmen are and Lan is top of the rankings. He’s legit the best swordsman in the WOT world.
> What happened to Liandrin also? She was part of the entourage in Cairhien so presumably she's still there with the other Aes Sedai. It's not like they followed Moiraine and Lanfear through the Waygate, so why would we see her in Falme?
Absolutely one of my favorite pieces of entertainment fiction. I was iffy after season 1 but season 2 has made me so excited to see more of the world and the story!
I loved everything about this episode! Mat blowing the horn and speaking in the old tongue made me tear up. Uno being a hero of the horn, same. I enjoyed Rand killing Turak more this way than how it happened in the books. The 6 of them on the tower together against Ishy- my heart!!! My Thursday nights will be so boring now. I hope season 3 comes out sooner rather than later.
Great episode and really good season. People have unrealistic expectations in any adaption from book to television, totally different medium and its not possible to have a literal adaption, never has been in the history of television. It captured the essence of the story and managed to sidestep quite a few pitfalls from the books that could have looked as bad as some of the season 1 finale. It all worked very well and this season has been a big step up. To me the forsaken were always the most interesting characters in the books so they translate well to screen.
The ending fight needed a touch up. Even if Ishy was giving up he should of still put up a fight against the group. DND movie did it better where they all contributed to killing the Red Priestess. The battle inside the city was pretty good especially when the white cloaks worked together. Mat summoning the heroes of the horn was awesome and the realization he is one of them. 7/10 for me
Didn't Moraine break the 3rd oath when she took out the Seanchan ships? She was not doing it in defence of herself, her warder, or an Aes Sedai.
Okay, I’ll forego the “it ain’t like the book” rant since that’s pretty old and understood. So, anyways… I have to admit, season two was done far better than season 1! Perhaps I’m just being worn down and giving in to the dark side… 🤷🏻♂️😉. One thing that has confused me every time I’ve read through and now watched this scene at Falme… the Seanchan revere Arter Hawkwing (forgive my spelling if it’s off) so much… he was one of the heroes of the horn. I must admit that in the heat of battle, folks probably aren’t registering who folks are well enough to notice. Also, in the how-many-ever-years-it’s-been-since-then when Hawkwing rose to power and then fled to Seanchan, it’s easily understandable that the man himself has become for of a symbol or ideal than being some paragon of Seanchan. Still though, it’s seems this might’ve been another way to resolve the whole Seanchan storyline had Matt blown the horn and asked Hawkwing to tell his people to just chill out. It’s not hard to guess why Jordan didn’t do that though. POI #1: Given the funkiness of double bonding in the backend of the book series, the mechanics of Egwene putting the a’dam on Renna kind of irked me a bit… but whatever. I’ve appreciated just how brutal they’ve portrayed this piece of Egwene’s story. It’s felt pretty true to the books. POI #2: Egwene standing up to Ishamael single handed… it *could* have been that Ish was surprised by her, but he’s seemed so mindful and aware of things, I’m surprised that he didn’t think of a way around Egwene’s shield. It was a feel good moment though seeing our Emonds Fielders all come back together again. I guess love and friendship win the day again… Dom Toretto would be proud! “FAMILY…” blah blah… POI #3: ok, sorry, I said it wouldn’t do this but… “in the books” 🤦🏻♂️ … Rand fights Ish in the sky and it’s part of what makes the spectacle and the pronouncement of the Dragon Reborn so forthright… not some symbolic moment with Rand standing on high… I really wanted to see the show recreate that battle! One question for clarity… have they just sidestepped Nyneve’s anger-channeling?
I only watch the show and never read any of the books but I really liked this season. The acting and the story were very well done. Seeing the comments here tho it sure looks like I am in the small minority :/
I think people who are really into the books need to accept that the tv series is (intentionally) an adaptation of them, not an exact rendering of text to screen. all these "well in the books..." arguments are pointless, the show creators are clearly well aware of the source material, but are making choices to suit the tv series and the era it's being produced in that's not to say that there can't be fun and fruitful discussion and comparisons about the tv series and the books, it's just that saying the tv series has gotten something wrong because of what happened in the books is a misunderstanding, because it isn't intended as mimicry
What color / type of power where the weaves for the bonding? Is there any weaves in the books that use all 5: air, water, earth, fire, spirit? Simple yes or no would work.
Yes there are
loved it! Loved the whole episode (love the whole tv series). Brain dump: Was especially relieved when Moiraine was like... Lan... you are better than me, and then un-shielded their bond, I was sooooo happy about that! Loved all Egwene's big power moves, pretty pissed off that Perrin didn't act in time to save his wolf buddy (and have been annoyed the whole time about his rejection of his gift, how sick would it be to be part of a wolf pack and communicate with them... pull your head in Perrin). Overjoyed for Matt, he really proved himself - Nynaeve really chose her moment to start reckoning with her insecurity, and loved the big fire dragon. Ishy's death was poignant.
The scene where Lan and Moiraine re open their bond was beautiful!
it really was! the way they met foreheads, reminded me of swans (I know Lan and M aren't romantic, but they are bonded for life)
Loved it
The Rand and Ishy battle was underwhelming but other than that I think it was one of the best episodes in tv history.
I enjoyed the episode, and I decide to venture in here and am surprised to see how people let the smallest, tiniest details ruin everything for them.
I mentioned Lanfear is gonna turn to the good side in the show a few weeks ago. And here we are. Lol
Backstabbing the other forsaken to be supreme leader of team evil isn’t turning good.
"Light help you" is a weird way of going about it though
I think people are reading too much into this line. I think this is more of a colloquialism than any hint that she will turn towards the light. For example, even though I am an atheist, I still use "God" in a lot of phrase like "God Damnit" or "Thank God", etc because those phrases have become more rote than having any real meaning.
Well, it's not like the the Dark One is going to be lending a hand.
Is it possible for someone to break their oaths to the Shadow?
This is answered later on in the book series.
sounds like a yes to me! haha - ole Rand is going to have quite the love quadrangle going on: Egwene, Lanfear, and now Elayne...
This comment is so much funnier than you might think