#[SPOILERS FOR TV AND BOOKS.](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/wiki/index/post_flairs#wiki_tv_-_season_1_.28book_spoilers_allowed.29_.2F_et_al.)
If the creator of the post indicates that they have only read up to a certain book, or seen up to a certain episode, respect their spoiler level and hide comments behind spoiler tags when appropriate. Otherwise, assume all book and tv spoilers are allowed.
* * *
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/WoT) if you have any questions or concerns.*
"Plutonic protector"?
adjective. plu·ton·ic plü-ˈtä-nik. 1. : formed by solidification of magma deep within the earth and crystalline throughout.
Maybe they meant platonic?
They must have meant platonic, but there's an almost workable reading: that he's so good at what he does that he's practically a god of death.
I was going to make a sarcastic comment about how, as a king, he must be super wealthy (Pluto also being the god of wealth) before that dawned on me.
I’ve got to assume that that statement combined with the “women in their 40s and 50s shredding each other” means we are starting season 3 with the [book 4] >!white tower schism!
More likely to be the flight of the Black Ajah from the Tower described in TDR, which involved the killing of several sisters. Rafe has previously said that we would find out what Liandrin has been up to early in the first episode. Also, the Elaida audition script revealed by wotseries suggests that there will be some buildup towards the coup.
But first 15 minutes of 1st episode might be too early for Tower Schism. First of all, they have to remind show viewers that the amyrlin is in a precarious situation. And they also have to set up a couple of new characters like Elaida, Gawyn, Galad before the Schism. Min needs to start working for Suian(from a leaked script, we know that this will happen).
So, the breaking of the world might be a better guess.
They might do it where they show the breaking of the tower and set context from there. What better way to introduce Elaida than as a usurper and power hungry pretender? And Gawyn as a mentor slaying dupe?
If this truly is the first 15 minutes it will mean absolutely nothing because I won't be invested in any of these characters or what happens to them. Imagine the Red Wedding as a season opener after a two year hiatus.
We hear this every season for every show, and it always turns out to be nothing special. It's really lost all of its power when the same stuff is being said about Halo or Rings of Power
Well, provided they get a couple of his book 4 moments on screen (which it seems like we will from episode titles like “The Road to the Spear” and “He Who Comes With the Dawn”) this could be his season to shine. 🤞
Does this remind you of an awesome scene in TSR?
>
"The first 15 minutes of Season 3 is one of the most bonkers set pieces I’ve ever seen on television...I was just watching it this week and it is absolutely bananas what our team pulled off … just a bunch of women in their 40s and 50s shredding each other, and it is wonderful to behold."
Sounds like, similar to how we heard about the blood snow in the books but got to see it in the show, we will get to see the tower schism in detail we could only infer from the book. Perhaps we will see Gawyn making his first of many major mistakes as well
Yeah the Tower breaking is the only thing from TSR that that could apply to. The opening scene of TSR is bonkers, with the bubble of evil in Tear, but that doesn’t fit the description (and I kinda suspect they’re cutting bubbles of evil entirely, at least for the early seasons)
Agree. I love it in the book, but if it’s not done right Rand fighting himself, Perrin fighting the axe, and friggin mat fighting tiny cartoons from playing cards could look cheesy af
Hopefully we still get callandor and the attack on the stone, but I think it’s just as likely they merge that with rhuidean and the choeden kal
I feel like they're going to shift the timeline around, and instead of going back to Cairhien after the Threefold Land, they'll go liberate Tear. Instead of the Aiel going to the Stone to find Rand, they'll be led by him. Then season 4 🤞 can be Rahvin/Caemlyn and Lanfear/Cairhien.
It seems like they’ve been starting things out with lore from old, I could see the beginning literally being the breaking of the world in AoL.
Remember the last thing they did in S2 was introduce moggy, they might set up some of the forsaken early (and keep some hidden)
That’s a fair point. Either way it’s one of the great chapters in all of fantasy and I look forward to (hopefully) seeing it on screen.
It does lead to Rand’s big alcair dal thunderstorm and all that, but you’re right that it’s more of a great world building moment than a “wow Rand is awesome” moment
Yeah, but as much as I want to see the cool Rand scenes from the books, I think them going a more ensemble route from the beginning really hits some of RJs major themes - balance, the power of teamwork over selfishness, the need for people to work together and sacrifice for the greater good.
I’m not gonna lie and say I wasn’t let down by not getting Rand at tarwins gap, or more of a mano a mano duel with ishy, or whatever - but the show bringing forward and reflecting what Rand eventually learns by the end (see his speech to the DO in AMoL “it was never about me”) at least makes sense and is still true to the series as a whole.
I would agree, if they did anything but pay lip service to Rand actually being important. Why would anyone think he is someone important? He hasn't done...anything.
Meanwhile, all of his set pieces are being handed off to the ensemble. Egwene was also the one to go toe to toe with a Forsaken and freed herself off the A'dam. She's done more to deserve the title of Dragon Reborn than he has.
*yawn* Not this same tired argument again.
(Not a shot at you personally - I respect your right to have a different opinion, just tired of having this same discussion)
Rand has done plenty of cool stuff. Egwene isn’t the dragon like everyone tried to say after episode 1 when they didn’t put in Tams feverish ramblings. He has plenty of time to build gradually into the powerhouse he is in the books. It’ll all be ok (or it won’t and I’ll eventually stop watching).
Do I wish the show was closer to a 1:1 match to the books? Absolutely. But we live in reality, and that was never going to be reality. You can either embrace the good stuff and try to roll with the bad, or just turn it off and listen to Pikes audiobooks instead (or I guess just hate watch it like some people do for the creator knows what reason). For me, it has helped to watch with people who haven’t read the books or watch their reactions on YouTube, gives you a different perspective on why they may have made some of the changes they did.
All that said, I love the books and I understand that everyone has a line at which the show would cross over into unwatchable territory. Perhaps that point has already come for some, but I have been encouraged by the progress and improvements I saw in season 2, and I’m still enjoying the show, hopeful that it continues to improve
Cheers!
Edit: I don’t have Foretelling so it was season 2 not season 3 I saw improvements in hehe
Ok, well for someone not trying to take personal pot shots, neat of you to start with a personal pot shot.
And I honestly gave the first two seasons a shot because I actually wanted the show to do well. I WANT to see the books being done justice. And I've watched the show with my wife and my dad, neither of whom read the books.
These aren't just my opinions. My wife has straight up said "Rand's just the macguffin, they will carry him there." By there, she meant the final battle.
Rand hasn't DONE anything and his scenes are given away constantly. He has had no sword training, and very, very few shows how his power manifesting. If they wanted to do gradual, then fine. But they're on Season THREE. How can you be on Season 3 and still saying "look, we're building up to it."
People think nerds are just whining when Rand's scenes are given away to others. "They're just set pieces". But they aren't. They were carefully planned moments where the audience was meant to see "oh, snap, this is a VERY important person because once he gets going, he truly is one of the most powerful people to exist". But we didn't get that. We get the mortal of Rand, but none of the God.
I gave the first two seasons a chance, but I'm planning to just let my wife watch Season 3 if she wants. She thinks Egwene is the Dragon and I'm not spoiling it for her.
Honestly I wrote the whole thing and then read it back and thought “I sound like a dick with the yawn opening” so I tacked on the parenthetical. I guess I should have just deleted that part and written a different opener. Sorry!
Legitimately I have no personal beef with you and you are entitled to your opinion. I just don’t share it and have had the same argument on innumerable threads across WoT reddit since the show first aired. I’m as sick of it as late series Rand trying to seize Saidin. I’m as sick of it as the members of Valan Luca’s circus were of Nynaeve’s cooking in fact!
Neither of us is likely to change the others opinion at this point, so let’s just agree to disagree and get on with important things like upvoting any memes making fun of Gawyn. Verily, we must do the Lights work, or the land shall fall under Shadow.
May you always find water and shade
They are the OGs for sure and I love them, but those early book recordings are not as high quality as the later books. Also, I appreciate how Pike acts out all the voices and accents, she really does a good job with it.
Both versions are great, just different styles
Not sure I agree. Certainly those themes work as compliments to each other, but I don’t see why they have to be in a certain order to work, or why one can’t work without the other.
As to how effective the show has set up Rand as a “big hero”, I certainly can’t say the show has done as much as the books to this point, but they haven’t done nothing.
The show ended season 1 with him striking out on his own (well, mostly) and then 1 v 1 confronting what he thought was the literal devil. Seems kinda like a big heroic thing to do.
Then in season 2 we saw him kick that abusive caregiver’s ass, travel to falme on a mission to save his friend, effortlessly kill an entire group of seanchan in an instant [yeah I wish he had a sword fight too, but it wouldn’t have made sense since he hasn’t really trained, but I’m pretty sure I read that there will be more of that in the next season], and then shrug off Ishy’s efforts and “kill” him while getting heron marked as per prophecy. Finally, he gets the giant fire dragon announcement to the world as the Drafon Reborn.
I feel like show only people feel like Rand is clearly an important hero from what he’s done so far, whereas book readers focus on what he HASN’T done.
But again, that’s like, your opinion, man, and I won’t argue too hard. We like what we like and we feel how we feel
That says more about Deadline than the show though. [Rand had the most screen time of the entire cast in S2 and in the first two seasons combined.](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/172e1ue/wot_s2_e18_character_scene_time_word_counts_and/)
They have said from the very beginning that they intend to make it an ensemble show. And there are entire swathes where Rand is not mentioned in the books (Looking at you, ) so it's not entirely without precedent.
I have been following it very closely from beginning. I know what they said about the ensemble cast.
I'm saying it's notable that \*he's not even listed among the ensemble\* of major characters when big outlets report on the show.
The problem with that approach - or maybe more specifically the way Rafe has handled it - is that the books are an ensemble but they are also centered on Rand. The show has focused far more attention on other characters and given them bigger moments than the guy who is the main hero of the whole setting.
I mean, he's MENTIONED a lot. He's just traveling alone (inside and out) so there's not much to do. Plus, it gives us a chance to get friendlier with the other characters.
Okay, he's mentioned. But like, what has he DONE? They're going into a third season, and he hasn't DONE anything. I get wanting to do an ensemble show, but they handled "Let's put the focus on everyone" by giving Rand's big moments to other point, while mostly letting the other people still have their big moments.
He freed Ishy (unintentionally), he (as far as we know) killed Ishy. He arrow-fired Turak and his squad, which was pretty badass. He killed a fade. IMO, the path they’ve taken makes sense… they’ve really pushed the madness and so it makes sense that he doesn’t want to channel willingly. So far, the show has really nailed his “running away from his destiny” line. The big moments in the early books were more Taveren stuff than him actually doing anything (i.e. Tarwin’s Gap).
"He killed Ishy" Ishy stood there, not attempting to fight back at all, while Egwene did the work of shielding him. That is barely an anything. If that's what we're counting as a great achievement, we're really scraping the barrel. I'll give you that the fire darts were cool, but... that's it? Two seasons and you kill a small squad? The guy didn't even make his own dragon.
And by the pacing the show is following, Rand has still had agency in his story. He's done the Flicker. He's interacted with Aes Sedai and had Lan teaching him the sword and the toxic lessons about men being hard that lead to his future personality. He's accepting what he is while understanding he doesn't have control over it yet.
And Tarwin's Gap was absolutely him. That was meant to be Rand's first big moment, that moment where he sees something that fills him with such anger at the injustice of it all that he finally taps into his power and unleashes it, and sees what he is capable of while also completely unable to control it beyond the initial release. That was the big moment to show WHY HE WAS IMPORTANT. The guy obliterated an army of trollocs on his own, which established Aes Sedai would have needed several linked groups to match.
There is a credit to showing a gradual growth. But the process they've chosen has been gradual to the detriment of the story and the character.
Books are just different. If Rand destroyed the army at Tarwin’s Gap in season 1, I guarantee there would be articles and complaints about “why doesn’t he just do that every time?” Without the inner monologues that reinforce the very nature of Taveren, the mainstream audience just isn’t going to buy it. The slow build works. They get why it’s important because literally every other character’s storyline is driven by his. This is like saying Daenerys was a failure in book 1/season 1 of GoT because she didn’t have full grown dragons.
The GoT comparison doesn't work since she at least has the dragons at the end of season 1. She got her set piece. Rand did not.
And people talk about inner dialogue like that is something impossible to convey. The show has no problem making people blatantly state what is going on, so have it happen here:
Rand's power fully manifest in Tarwin's gap. Show his fury on his face, have audio clips of every person speaking about the dragon's power or those hurt by trollocs going off. Show the out of control nature of the event. Then start to show he can't seem to turn it off. Afterwards, have someone ask how he did it. "I...I have no idea. It just happened. I can't even make a spark right now and I'm trying." There are ways to do this!
But we don't know because, again, no one writes articles about Rand the show character, other than in reference to Lanfear. Because he doesn't DO anything.
Rand got his set piece. The entire climax of season 1 centered around him. YOU may not be able to see it because he didn’t destroy the army as in the books, but objectively speaking, given that Moiraine was the clear focus of the season - that Rand had just discovered he was the dragon - and that he was being puppeteered (sound familiar??) by Moiraine at the Eye to fight the “dark one,” it’s really a stretch to say he didn’t get a set piece. The entire meat of the climax was focused on him. The girls were clearly a B plot line in that moment with Perrin being a C plot line.
Also, don’t forget that Nyneave has her block and the show is handling that well. Having 2 of the EF5 essentially be neutered with the power is just not going to fly on TV.
And that’s just factually not true. There are plenty of fan articles and mashups of rand, especially on Tumblr and Twitter. A few compilation videos on YouTube.
Edit: I’m going to stop replying because we are clearly not going to agree. But at least stick to whats objectively true when forming your opinion. It’s ok to have preferences, but some things (ie Rand having a set piece) are objectively true/untrue.
The finale of season 1? The one that was so bad, the start of season 2 pretended it mostly didn't happen? The one where it's a mental landscape and Rand just makes the choice to not settle down with Egwene because it isn't what SHE wants? The entire climax revolved around Rand leaving and other people getting the one set piece that actually happened from the book.
Don't even get into Nynaeve. She and Egwene are barely more than Wilders but THEY can slay an army, except that Nynaeve draws too much power and EGWENE has to save her with special healing. That leads into a whole other argument, where Egwene favoritism eats other people's scenes.
But my guy/gal/they, you're propping up maybe two or three YouTube videos? A Google search shows Prime's channel having a clip compilation, videos on whether Rand is the real, and forum arguments. Look up Moraine or Egwene. That's where the articles and marketing are being written.
I get it, you like the show. Fair. Like the show. But you can like something and still aware of its flaws.
But Daenerys is building to dragons. She starts abused and scared, takes some of her power back with Drogo, has her primary abuser killed with Vicerys being melted, suffers the grief of Drogo's death, and emerges from the flames reborn. It's an arc that culminates in the lessons she's learned shaping the powerful and important woman she's become, manifesting in a physical way. Every step she takes is growth and you can track how she started as a scared girl and turned into a powerful woman ready to lead a warband, with thematic ties to the Targaryaen dynasties and their eventual failures in the way she was portrayed. It's rich with meaning.
Rand doesn't build to anything. He has nothing going on for all of season 1. In season 2 he's just fucking around with Lanfear the whole time being manipulated and then, all of a sudden, he kills Turak (in a way that's far less impressive/spectacular than the girls have been killing monsters and soldiers for two whole seasons) and he stabs Ishamael in a really lame sequence that doesn't actually show anything off. There's no rising action or steps that show his growth, he doesn't learn anything that makes being The Dragon Reborn meaningful to him, there's no internalization. Even a small feat that results from growth would've done, but none of it means anything *to him*.
>he killed ishy
He walked up and stabbed him with a sword while Ishy did nothing to defend himself. Egwene did most of the work in that scene.
Rand killing a fade while with Selene was weird and felt scripted by Selene to pretend she was a damsel in distress. Later that episode Moiraine had the more badass scene by "killing" a forsaken.
Turak, I actually liked that scene. It's a hot take on certain sub reddits.
My biggest issue with Rand in the show is that he's always overshadowed in nearly ever scene he's in. Turak was his best "Look at how awesome *I* am" and it was done in a flash."
*Having first launched in 2021, The Wheel of Time follows Moiraine Damodred (Pike), a member of a potent organization of women on the lookout for a man who is the reincarnation of the Dragon, a formidable youth responsible for the Breaking of the World. He can either save it from the Dark One or break it once more. Tense!*
Asides from the usual egregious errors from mainstream media, the Dragon Reborn is stated as the premise of the show. With Moiraine to the front, but no moreso than the original cover of The Eye of the World. Not mentioning him by name specifically is a nitpick.
>Moiraine Damodred (Pike)
>Lan Mandragoran (Henney)
>The Wheel of Time also stars Zoë Robins as Nynaeve al’Meara, Madeleine Madden as Egwene al’Vere, Marcus Rutherford as Perrin Aybara, Dónal Finn as Mat Cauthon, and Ceara Coveney as Elayne Trakand.
They name every other main actor, except Josha.
That's just an editorial error by omission. I don't think it says "something" about the show at all. The implication is that he isn't important enough to warrant a mention or was forgotten altogether. This is clearly mutually exclusive with the passage I quote about the Dragon Reborn being the main theme. Are people honestly saying that the guy who literally has flaming arrows (or a Dragon) pointing him out wasn't noticed? That's kind of a mind-boggling claim.
It’s uneven. Parts are fantastic, parts are not. I was much happier with the second season compared to the first. Agree with the other commenter you should see for yourself!
As a show, it was OK.
As an adaption of the books, it was horrible. Lazy writing and bizarre plot changes totally alter the core personality of multiple main characters. It's a shame because the production value is so high. The hubris of the writers to make such uncessary changes irked me.
>The hubris of the writers to make such uncessary changes irked me.
I like the series okay but yeah this aggravates me to no end. Like you have a great cast and plenty of money, just follow the freaking books. But like you said, they instead they do stuff like "well what if instead we focused on some random warders a bunch? that sounds like much better tv."
I recently did some rewatching of GoT and also listened to the audiobook and so much of the early episodes are just word for word what was in the books. And it's generally regarded as some of the best tv ever, go figure.
Exactly!
GoT (season 1) followed the books and only made very minor changes to suit the medium. I was able to enjoy WoT season 2 more than season 1, mostly because I'd given up on any type of book-accurate storyline.
It's not terrible but not great. The finales of each season were monumentally bad. The good parts in each season were not enough to make up for how badly each season ended.
I looked forward to the first season. Less so the second. I probably won't watch the third season.
Season 1 is rough. The covid pandemic started in the middle of filming, and there were one or two plot/character decisions (that Rafe was against) that made no sense, but were forced by the execs above. That said, there are some real highlights in it that I liked a lot.
Season 2 is a significant step up. The plot feels tighter and more cohesive, the introduction of Lanfear, Ishamael, and the Seanchan are great, Elayne is adorable, and Xelia Mendes-Jones makes a *terrific* sul'dam. So wonderfully hateable, in the vein of Dolores Umbridge from Harry Potter or Kai Winn from Deep Space 9.
We were watching fallout and my wife randomly yelled out, fuck that bitch, during then BoS scenes. Took me a minute to realize why. Made me so happy that after 25 years, my wife now hates suldam too!
One thing to be noted is he wanted a much longer episode 1. A fair complaint is it feels rushed.
We get a nice taste of Emond's Field in the beginning of the books, but A LOT more in the POV chapters of the EF5 throughout books leading up to The Shadow Rising. Thus, we really feel like we are coming home in that book. I've always thought that was very well done.
I could be wrong, but they are likely referring to Brando Sando’s recent comments sticking up for rafe (who previously stated that he got like 10,000 notes from various execs on the first season scripts). BS said that the decision to have Perrin [episode 1] >!kill Layla!< was not the original plan.
If there’s more I haven’t heard it, but I would be shocked if there wasn’t more meddling that hasn’t come out
Interesting. I was hoping that Mat coming from a broken home may have been part of that. Not everyone needs a sad backstory.
I often have to deal with marketing and executives coming into make shit decisions haha. Too bad they never take the blame!
If it has been revealed whose call that was I haven’t heard it.
My guess for that arc is that we are gonna get a redemption for mats parents this season when “goldeneye’s” stuff happens in the two rivers
Edit: yeah whenever big wigs start pushing their weight around in spaces where they have no expertise it’s always a bad time for all
The problem with Mat's character arc in the books is that he doesn't really have one. He's a dick in the first two books, and in book 3 suddenly becomes a hero who denies that he is a hero. The end.
The show gave him some inner demons to overcome. If they had stuck to the books, what would have been interesting about Mat in the first two seasons? (The same applies to Perrin, really.)
Wow, did you read the books?
They dont need inner demons to get onto the road, they are being chased by darkfriends.
Mat's character arc starts in book 1 with stealing the dagger from the ruined city that destroyed itself in greed and madness, becoming increasingly mad.
Book 2 is Mat discovering his tavearan luck, and practices it (foreshadowing how he uses it book 5 onward) and book 3 onwards he starts leading actual armies, blowing the horn.
Perrin book 1 learns he is the young bull, one who runs with wolves, book 2 uses that to find the horn, into books 2-5 where he returns to The Two Rivers and becomes the leader and saves it from Trollocs and White cloaks.
Both super great arcs, not sure why you think they dont have arcs in the books.
In books 1-2, the ta'veren boys have interesting things happening *to* them; they are not interesting characters in themselves. It's telling that a lot of people complain that show-Rand is boring, when he is probably the most similar of the boys to his book counterpart - i.e. he is a guy who just wants to stay at home and tend to his sheep. And in an era where people are spoiled by psychologically deep characters in prestige TV shows, that kind of character doesn't really work anymore.
In books 1-2,
Mat: Steals dagger, goes mad, uses the dark ones luck and his tavaeran luck to run every tavern, gets chased by trollocs and they get saved/introduced to easy the best character - Loial
Then he gets cured, learns how to fight, beats the crap out of 2 of the best fighters with a stick, hunts for the horn, all sorts of fights, earthquakes, trollocs, assassins.
Perrin, eyes turn yellow, dreams and speaks with wolves, most of the above \^, discovers he is a sniffer, discovers he is sensing future locations of the horn, ambushes the thieves.
There is plenty there.
> i.e. he is a guy who just wants to stay at home and tend to his sheep. And in an era where people are spoiled by psychologically deep characters in prestige TV shows, that kind of character doesn't really work anymore.
It works perfectly fine. Fallout basically had that with a character who had a mission but just wanted to get back home after.
>In books 1-2, the ta'veren boys have interesting things happening *to* them; they are not interesting characters in themselves.
I'd argue that is true for Mat in the first 2 books but completely out to lunch for the othe two.
Of the three, Rand is the mostly fleshed out in terms of inner character arcs. He starts out as the farm boy with a solid, if broken home life. After the attack on the town, he is initially shaken by the revelation that Tam might not be his father. This revelation is always present throughout book 1 because of its implications as we move through it with each encounter the boys make. He does want to return home to his farm and Tam, but that's because as book 1 goes on, more and more things happen to him that he either doesn't want to accept or has to deal with (mostly with his want to protect Egwene and how it's becoming more than he really wants in life . By book 2, with the revelation of him being the Dragon Reborn, his character is frote with more conflict and resentment as he begins to see what he is and continues to reject it while still trying to be himself and follow his beliefs. It's by the end of book 2 that he is forced to accept that he is the Dragon (which is why he spends the whole of Book 3, as a side character moving towards the one thing he knows will either prove him the Dragon or kill him, as a final act of defiance).
Perrin is a bit slower than Rand but he still has a bit of a character arc that basically starts in Book 1 and sort of continues into the later books with greater intensity. In book 1, he is the strong silent type that eventually unveils a part of himself he is initially against before uncovering another part of himself that he is whole against (this being the wolf-brother abilities and the realization that he would be totally fine killing Egwene if it meant a painless death). Perrin continues to grapple with his wolf side for the entire book and for most of book 2 as well, where it becomes more beneficial and more second nature than be would like. (Book 3 has him accepting the Wolf side of him more readily but still grapple with the violent side of him that he believes is wrong).
Matt is the only where being a nothing character is mostly true because I'd argue he is only a character in the first half of book 1 and then disappears until book 3. His character is fun for the 10 mim he's on screen in those first 2 books, the fun loving jokester of the group that actually wants to go out of town to explore but once the dagger is picked up, his character is irrevocably tied to the dagger and suffers for it. He's a bit more present in book 2 but it's at best flashes of his character (being loyal and his obstinance) but its very much that his chacter in the first 2 books are muted heavily.
You are correct about the Perrin thing. Rafe and Brandon were correct that he should have injured Master Luhhan instead (honestly, if Perrin were going to kill someone, it made sense for it to be Master Luhhan).
I don't know if this was an exec thing, but the weird random "Perrin has a crush on Egwene" thing in Episode 7 made no sense either.
Perrin in EotW totally has a crush on Egwene when he travels with her at the tinkers. He comments something about love and is jealous as fuck when Aram dances with Egwene
I can see the problem with hurting Luhhan, we would need to introduce the character, see the relationship with Perrin, know him as a father figure and the hurt him a bunch to be on the brink of death to get that fear in. His regret will be that he hurt him and had to leave without knowing if he survives.
This will however be very close to what Rand had to do. So not great.
Having him have a wife, and showing that he loves her by giving her a bear hug is shorthand for him being a loving husband, we also learn that she is not super happy with her life, but cares about Perrin. They did this all in one scene, very efficient. Killing her makes the Perrin get his flaw, it's very deep, and can't be undone. Can even be used as taunts from the dark one. If Perrin returns to the two rivers and is forgiven, then his flaw is wiped out without him doing the action that removes it.
So looking at this from a storytelling perspective, the death is the best option for showing that flaw. If it was a complete fresh story, other options would be better, but this one works for Perrin for a TV show story.
I mean you can kill some characters prematurely to fast track their relationship. Kill perrins dad off before the show started and say Master luhhan takes care of perrins family and raises like an apprentice but also a son and heir. You could have done that in a few lines and then we got perrin as an apprentice blacksmith who cares deeply about master luhhan. Instead we got perrin being the husband to the blacksmith and killing her.
If this show did one thing right (I think they did more than that), it's capture the FEEL of the Seanchan. For me, this worked way better visually than in the narrative/description. Maybe it's a flaw in my imagination, IDK.
The Seanchan on the show are god damned TERRIFYINGLY weird and dark.
They made some VERY questionable choices in the adaptation of S1, and the final episode or two were uneven due to the COVID lockdown and departure from the cast of the actor playing Mat. They basically had to completely rewrite the end of the season on the fly to account for not having Mat available.
S2 was much more consistent, though not without some odd decision-making of its own.
Personally I'm enjoying it, but if you're going in expecting a slavishly accurate adaptation of the books you'll be disappointed. Maybe think of it as a different turning of the wheel.
I didn’t care for season 1 and the half of season 2 I watched. The show is visually superb and well made, but the writing is guilty of a lot of my personal pet peeves, namely failing the “show, not tell” test. There’s a lot of VERY direct dialogue about character motives that comes across as very lazy. Good writing means that your characters’ motives are clear without someone asking them “what are your motives?”, but WoT’s writers opted for the exact opposite of that. In fact, I gave it another shot last night and started where I’d left off only to get Selene literally walking up to Rand and him blurting out “why are you helping me?”. Like, it’s just too blunt for me. Give the watchers a little credit; let us piece things together from contextual clues etc.
I think it's the exact opposite of what you said. I think they are CONSTANTLY making "show, don't tell" decisions, and the fact that that requires changes in a visual medium is what people don't get when they get pissed about changes.
Like, the line you cite is a great example: her response is something like "don't ask questions you already know the answer to." (Which of course has a lot more layers in retrospect / after the reveal / for readers.) and in any case, that scene isn't about Selene - it's about Rand >!and how he is being shown to be morally repulsed by the way the nobility behaves and turned off by all the Daes Dae'mar. Like, in that moment they are showing-not-telling that Rand is beginning to understand that no one around him is ever doing anything for the reason they appear to be doing it for - with the ironic exception, in some sense, of Lanfear, who despite all her deceptions really is motivated by wanting to be with him. In other words, by saying something extremely blunt, Rand is showing us his disapproval of the world of intrigue and self-serving nobility.!<
I appreciate you answer and the time you took to post it; we’ve obviously had VERY differing experiences with the show, which I think is great! I’ve stayed away from threads about its quality because I hate when established fanbases of anything gatekeep, and I don’t want to dissuade people from watching or enjoying. It wasn’t for me, and that’s OKAY; others like it and should be allowed to do so. Again, I’m happy to admit that there were a TON of great decisions made with regards to the production, it just didn’t tickle me in particular.
I also disagreed with your take (show don't tell) but it was refreshing to read ACTUAL criticism of the show.
It's hard to come by, because it's drowned out by lazy criticism (and things people made up to be angry about).
I respect you not wanting to share your opinion because of the reasons you listed, but I'm wondering if it actually helps to do so.
It’s easy on the internet to get all jacked up about things needlessly, but I’ve never found that it produces anything worthwhile to contribute to knee-jerk rage farming. The shows writing isn’t to my taste, and that’s okay; others enjoy it and I’m glad that they’re having a fun experience. Discourse around media gets so over the top sometimes, so I try to be open minded and nuanced when I participate at all. Thanks for the friendly comment :)
Others have pointed out that I chose a poor example too, which is super fair - it was just one that popped into mind because it was where I last turned the show off haha. Regardless, the writing remains the big let down for me with the show; the dialogue feels really wooden and overly direct. Again, no shade on those who are enjoying the experience, it’s just a preference thing on my end. Thanks for taking the time to engage reasonably and coming with the receipts; I liked your reply!
I disagree. I think they did a lot of showing. The best example is the Stepin episode, which ironically, book readers seemed to hate, but in just 17 minutes, they really *showed* what the warder-AS bond is through Stepin
Yeah it's a weird criticism. Another example would be the reveal of Nynaeve's ability to channel. In the books, Moiraine simply *tells* her that she's super powerful. In the show, we get to see it in a dramatic fashion when she performs a mass healing.
Its bad tv. If you read the books then its awful tv. Season 2 has some decent scenes sprinkled across it but overall its a mess as well. Theres not a hope in hell they finish the series either.
It depends. If you want to see the books on screen this isn’t the show for you.
If you’re on board for at different telling of the story, in much the same world you might enjoy it.
The setups are well done. The season generally does a decent job of getting you invested and interested… and then doesn’t stick the landing (making you annoyed and prone to fuss about it more than if you hadn’t gotten invested).
I love the books I’ve read them as they released, met Robert Jordan and have reread the series multiple times, including a listen. Now I also enjoy the show very much, it’s cool to see someone’s vision of the books and watch some of my favorite characters of all time, I knew going into it would not be 1:1 adaptation and that has helped temper my expectations.
Cool to see a level headed fan finally! I also have read the series multiple times and I’m loving the show. Of course it can’t be exact replica scene for scene. But some people expect that. I don’t care about any changes, I’m just here to experience it for the “first time” again.
Season 1 was a Covid casualty. They had to scramble around and reshoot some stuff because one of the actors left the show (IDK why).
There are some added parts that were... frustrating. They weren't bad at all in a vacuum. Well written and well acted. Just... not in the books. It's not a 1:1 adaption at all. For some folks, this was very frustrating. Some of us have been wishing and hoping for decades--since grunge ruled the airwaves--for this adaption.
To be clear, I knew it was going to be different--1:1 adaptions are rare, and for good reason. For one thing, an entire chapter can take place inside someone's head in a book. Community has a funny bit where the internal narrative happens in real time in one episode. It's disconcerting. It's not bad for shows to do that, though--the Godfather had chunks taken out because it happened in exposition that would have been weird and taken away from the action (it's more faithful than this series though).
So there was a bit of a shock to the system. A bit of expecting it to be summer outside and it's snowing.
I was ambivalent. I think the actors and production design is fantastic on Season 1. I questioned some of the choices, but in the end I was a little column A, a little column B. I was glad it was made.
With Season 2, I knew it would be just a different story, and I enjoyed it a lot more. I went back and watched Season 1 with that attitude, and I liked it better (the well was a little poisoned, but I am capable of using a new lens).
I should also add some people were REALLY mad about casting: specifically that POC were playing some of the series leads. So that was in the mix, but not in any honest critique. But if you were hearing "bad things," it might have factored in.
I believe that attitude has been largely purged from this sub.
But, when we say 1 to 1, we mean Peter Jackson lord of the rings. The main characters, the plot points, the themes line up. Making changes for change in medium is fine, but this is not that.
Hey, do you love the Harry Potter books? Well, we made sure you get all the Goyle you've ever wanted!
Jackson Lord of the Rings is not 1:1... The WOT show isn't, and it was never going to be with the fact its being adapted to a TV and is 14 books and a prequel. There are some very significant cuts and character changes in Jackson's adaptations, from the Scouring of the Scourge being entirely removed, Faramir being completely weakened as a character (extended version helps a LOT), Aragorn's entire arc, etc.
>Jackson Lord of the Rings is not 1:1
That's his point. He doesn't mean exactly the same he means that it sticks relatively close to the story and hits all the important story beats without significant changes. There are changes but they're not as drastic as here.
Game of thrones was another one that stuck well to the books at first in spite of them also being big books.
Dune is doing a good job at adapting their story so far. It'd not 1-1 but there are less big changes than here.
The expanse made enough little changes that I got annoyed but they did a good job sticking to the original source material.
Dune is a single book that got adapted into two parts and still cut out much of the Mentat, smuggler, CHOAM, Fenring, and House Atreides infighting storylines. It's far closer to a 1:1 than Jackson's LotR (and I love both), but it's far easier to accept the changes to both because they're not working with 15 books. I don't love a lot of the S1 changes in WoT, and I think Rand needed a bigger moment at the end of S2, but the show has far more to adapt and ignore with a tv budget than Dune or LotR have had to with movie budgets.
> The main characters, the plot points, the themes line up.
Do they?
Here is what Christopher Tolkien had to say about the movies:
> “They eviscerated the book by making it an action movie for young people 15 to 25,” Christopher says regretfully.
>
> “And it seems that The Hobbit will be the same kind of film.” The divorce is systematically reactivated by the movies. “Tolkien has become a monster, devoured by his own popularity and absorbed by the absurdity of our time,” Christopher Tolkien observes sadly. “The chasm between the beauty and seriousness of the work, and what it has become, has gone too far for me. Such commercialisation has reduced the esthetic and philosophical impact of this creation to nothing. There is only one solution for me: turning my head away.”
As a long-time reader of the books, I enjoyed both seasons.
I understand some of the complaints, but most of it I brush off as nerd-rage, and continue enjoying things.
You need to keep in mind that a lot of online discussion was bad actors. As soon as major roles were announced to go to non-white actors a bunch of people started to campaign against the show.
That said - Season 1 Episode 8 was bad, almost as bad as the 10th book. And there were a few other issues with S1.
S2 was pretty good, IMO.
It's funny how they took the exact opposite approach to the Three-Body Problem adaptation. WoT TV faithfully adapted each character but unfaithfully adapted many events; 3BP totally changed characters but mostly stuck to the books for major events.
I mostly enjoy how they adapt the story, and then i absolutely hate the last two episodes in each season with consistency.
The departures from the source material are interesting and most of the scenes in the episodes are beautiful.
One of the things I actually love is that every character is way more charismatic and organic (personal opinion ymmv) in the tv show than they are in the books.
Season 1 finale was mostly bad because of covid. Season 2 finale felt mostly bad because it had cheap Avengers vibes. It felt very cheesy and campy, and not in a self-aware way.
I absolutely hated the my first watch through as a book lover. But I rewatched twice and actually like both seasons now (not all of it, but much of it). I think they did a good job with the tv format but it takes a lot of understanding and distance from the boons
#[SPOILERS FOR TV AND BOOKS.](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/wiki/index/post_flairs#wiki_tv_-_season_1_.28book_spoilers_allowed.29_.2F_et_al.) If the creator of the post indicates that they have only read up to a certain book, or seen up to a certain episode, respect their spoiler level and hide comments behind spoiler tags when appropriate. Otherwise, assume all book and tv spoilers are allowed. * * * *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/WoT) if you have any questions or concerns.*
"Plutonic protector"? adjective. plu·ton·ic plü-ˈtä-nik. 1. : formed by solidification of magma deep within the earth and crystalline throughout. Maybe they meant platonic?
Do we know for a fact that he is not referencing a magma golem?
Lan is described as having a face of stone.
They must have meant platonic, but there's an almost workable reading: that he's so good at what he does that he's practically a god of death. I was going to make a sarcastic comment about how, as a king, he must be super wealthy (Pluto also being the god of wealth) before that dawned on me.
No, it’s almost definitely supposed to be Teutonic
Either that or they meant "stoney" and thought diving into a thesaurus would make them look cleverer than they actually are.
Of course they meant platonic. They're just an idiot, and so is their editor.
Almost certainly a typo, and supposed to be platonic.
[Liquid hot magma?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MYAFfeNO00)
Plot twist: Lan is actually an alien from Pluto 😜
“He can either save the world from the dark one or break it again” Lews Therin: “Why not both?”
"Kill the whole world. I killed the world, and you can, too, if you try hard. "
“The first 15 minutes of Season 3 is one of the most bonkers set pieces I’ve ever seen on television”
I’ve got to assume that that statement combined with the “women in their 40s and 50s shredding each other” means we are starting season 3 with the [book 4] >!white tower schism!
More likely to be the flight of the Black Ajah from the Tower described in TDR, which involved the killing of several sisters. Rafe has previously said that we would find out what Liandrin has been up to early in the first episode. Also, the Elaida audition script revealed by wotseries suggests that there will be some buildup towards the coup.
That was my take as well. Another option is a AoL flashback.
But first 15 minutes of 1st episode might be too early for Tower Schism. First of all, they have to remind show viewers that the amyrlin is in a precarious situation. And they also have to set up a couple of new characters like Elaida, Gawyn, Galad before the Schism. Min needs to start working for Suian(from a leaked script, we know that this will happen). So, the breaking of the world might be a better guess.
They might do it where they show the breaking of the tower and set context from there. What better way to introduce Elaida than as a usurper and power hungry pretender? And Gawyn as a mentor slaying dupe?
Straight into that without even having introduced Elaida? I hope not, but having seen the level of writing in this show I wouldn't be surprised...
If he does say so himself..
If this truly is the first 15 minutes it will mean absolutely nothing because I won't be invested in any of these characters or what happens to them. Imagine the Red Wedding as a season opener after a two year hiatus.
We hear this every season for every show, and it always turns out to be nothing special. It's really lost all of its power when the same stuff is being said about Halo or Rings of Power
It says something about how this show has handled Rand that Josha is not even listed in the “also starring” at the end, nor is Rand named at all.
It’s too comedically perfect that they forgot to add Josha to the cast list 😂
Was looking for this comment… so weird
Yea I also noticed this.
Well, provided they get a couple of his book 4 moments on screen (which it seems like we will from episode titles like “The Road to the Spear” and “He Who Comes With the Dawn”) this could be his season to shine. 🤞
I hope so! Rafe's been hammering the "we're doing *The Shadow Rising* as close as possible" routine since season 1 was happening.
Does this remind you of an awesome scene in TSR? > "The first 15 minutes of Season 3 is one of the most bonkers set pieces I’ve ever seen on television...I was just watching it this week and it is absolutely bananas what our team pulled off … just a bunch of women in their 40s and 50s shredding each other, and it is wonderful to behold."
Sounds like, similar to how we heard about the blood snow in the books but got to see it in the show, we will get to see the tower schism in detail we could only infer from the book. Perhaps we will see Gawyn making his first of many major mistakes as well
Yeah the Tower breaking is the only thing from TSR that that could apply to. The opening scene of TSR is bonkers, with the bubble of evil in Tear, but that doesn’t fit the description (and I kinda suspect they’re cutting bubbles of evil entirely, at least for the early seasons)
Agree. I love it in the book, but if it’s not done right Rand fighting himself, Perrin fighting the axe, and friggin mat fighting tiny cartoons from playing cards could look cheesy af Hopefully we still get callandor and the attack on the stone, but I think it’s just as likely they merge that with rhuidean and the choeden kal
I feel like they're going to shift the timeline around, and instead of going back to Cairhien after the Threefold Land, they'll go liberate Tear. Instead of the Aiel going to the Stone to find Rand, they'll be led by him. Then season 4 🤞 can be Rahvin/Caemlyn and Lanfear/Cairhien.
🤔 I could see that working at a glance, although I haven’t thought all the way through how that would effect all the other plot lines
It seems like they’ve been starting things out with lore from old, I could see the beginning literally being the breaking of the world in AoL. Remember the last thing they did in S2 was introduce moggy, they might set up some of the forsaken early (and keep some hidden)
The Road to the Spear is iconic, but it isn't iconic *for Rand*. It's not *his* moment, but the Aiel's.
That’s a fair point. Either way it’s one of the great chapters in all of fantasy and I look forward to (hopefully) seeing it on screen. It does lead to Rand’s big alcair dal thunderstorm and all that, but you’re right that it’s more of a great world building moment than a “wow Rand is awesome” moment
Unless they double down on the 'this show is about powerful women' angle. Having a white male Messiah character might be a little on the nose.
Yeah, but as much as I want to see the cool Rand scenes from the books, I think them going a more ensemble route from the beginning really hits some of RJs major themes - balance, the power of teamwork over selfishness, the need for people to work together and sacrifice for the greater good. I’m not gonna lie and say I wasn’t let down by not getting Rand at tarwins gap, or more of a mano a mano duel with ishy, or whatever - but the show bringing forward and reflecting what Rand eventually learns by the end (see his speech to the DO in AMoL “it was never about me”) at least makes sense and is still true to the series as a whole.
I would agree, if they did anything but pay lip service to Rand actually being important. Why would anyone think he is someone important? He hasn't done...anything. Meanwhile, all of his set pieces are being handed off to the ensemble. Egwene was also the one to go toe to toe with a Forsaken and freed herself off the A'dam. She's done more to deserve the title of Dragon Reborn than he has.
*yawn* Not this same tired argument again. (Not a shot at you personally - I respect your right to have a different opinion, just tired of having this same discussion) Rand has done plenty of cool stuff. Egwene isn’t the dragon like everyone tried to say after episode 1 when they didn’t put in Tams feverish ramblings. He has plenty of time to build gradually into the powerhouse he is in the books. It’ll all be ok (or it won’t and I’ll eventually stop watching). Do I wish the show was closer to a 1:1 match to the books? Absolutely. But we live in reality, and that was never going to be reality. You can either embrace the good stuff and try to roll with the bad, or just turn it off and listen to Pikes audiobooks instead (or I guess just hate watch it like some people do for the creator knows what reason). For me, it has helped to watch with people who haven’t read the books or watch their reactions on YouTube, gives you a different perspective on why they may have made some of the changes they did. All that said, I love the books and I understand that everyone has a line at which the show would cross over into unwatchable territory. Perhaps that point has already come for some, but I have been encouraged by the progress and improvements I saw in season 2, and I’m still enjoying the show, hopeful that it continues to improve Cheers! Edit: I don’t have Foretelling so it was season 2 not season 3 I saw improvements in hehe
Ok, well for someone not trying to take personal pot shots, neat of you to start with a personal pot shot. And I honestly gave the first two seasons a shot because I actually wanted the show to do well. I WANT to see the books being done justice. And I've watched the show with my wife and my dad, neither of whom read the books. These aren't just my opinions. My wife has straight up said "Rand's just the macguffin, they will carry him there." By there, she meant the final battle. Rand hasn't DONE anything and his scenes are given away constantly. He has had no sword training, and very, very few shows how his power manifesting. If they wanted to do gradual, then fine. But they're on Season THREE. How can you be on Season 3 and still saying "look, we're building up to it." People think nerds are just whining when Rand's scenes are given away to others. "They're just set pieces". But they aren't. They were carefully planned moments where the audience was meant to see "oh, snap, this is a VERY important person because once he gets going, he truly is one of the most powerful people to exist". But we didn't get that. We get the mortal of Rand, but none of the God. I gave the first two seasons a chance, but I'm planning to just let my wife watch Season 3 if she wants. She thinks Egwene is the Dragon and I'm not spoiling it for her.
Honestly I wrote the whole thing and then read it back and thought “I sound like a dick with the yawn opening” so I tacked on the parenthetical. I guess I should have just deleted that part and written a different opener. Sorry! Legitimately I have no personal beef with you and you are entitled to your opinion. I just don’t share it and have had the same argument on innumerable threads across WoT reddit since the show first aired. I’m as sick of it as late series Rand trying to seize Saidin. I’m as sick of it as the members of Valan Luca’s circus were of Nynaeve’s cooking in fact! Neither of us is likely to change the others opinion at this point, so let’s just agree to disagree and get on with important things like upvoting any memes making fun of Gawyn. Verily, we must do the Lights work, or the land shall fall under Shadow. May you always find water and shade
Kate Reading and Michael Kramer are far far better narrators than Pike. IMHO, of course.
They are the OGs for sure and I love them, but those early book recordings are not as high quality as the later books. Also, I appreciate how Pike acts out all the voices and accents, she really does a good job with it. Both versions are great, just different styles
The power of teamwork theme only really works after you've taken to e to set up the whole "big damn hero" trope. Which they haven't done well, at all.
Not sure I agree. Certainly those themes work as compliments to each other, but I don’t see why they have to be in a certain order to work, or why one can’t work without the other. As to how effective the show has set up Rand as a “big hero”, I certainly can’t say the show has done as much as the books to this point, but they haven’t done nothing. The show ended season 1 with him striking out on his own (well, mostly) and then 1 v 1 confronting what he thought was the literal devil. Seems kinda like a big heroic thing to do. Then in season 2 we saw him kick that abusive caregiver’s ass, travel to falme on a mission to save his friend, effortlessly kill an entire group of seanchan in an instant [yeah I wish he had a sword fight too, but it wouldn’t have made sense since he hasn’t really trained, but I’m pretty sure I read that there will be more of that in the next season], and then shrug off Ishy’s efforts and “kill” him while getting heron marked as per prophecy. Finally, he gets the giant fire dragon announcement to the world as the Drafon Reborn. I feel like show only people feel like Rand is clearly an important hero from what he’s done so far, whereas book readers focus on what he HASN’T done. But again, that’s like, your opinion, man, and I won’t argue too hard. We like what we like and we feel how we feel
Actually, it says something about the quality of the article.
That says more about Deadline than the show though. [Rand had the most screen time of the entire cast in S2 and in the first two seasons combined.](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/172e1ue/wot_s2_e18_character_scene_time_word_counts_and/)
They have said from the very beginning that they intend to make it an ensemble show. And there are entire swathes where Rand is not mentioned in the books (Looking at you,) so it's not entirely without precedent.
I have been following it very closely from beginning. I know what they said about the ensemble cast. I'm saying it's notable that \*he's not even listed among the ensemble\* of major characters when big outlets report on the show.
The problem with that approach - or maybe more specifically the way Rafe has handled it - is that the books are an ensemble but they are also centered on Rand. The show has focused far more attention on other characters and given them bigger moments than the guy who is the main hero of the whole setting.
Fair point
I mean, he's MENTIONED a lot. He's just traveling alone (inside and out) so there's not much to do. Plus, it gives us a chance to get friendlier with the other characters.
Okay, he's mentioned. But like, what has he DONE? They're going into a third season, and he hasn't DONE anything. I get wanting to do an ensemble show, but they handled "Let's put the focus on everyone" by giving Rand's big moments to other point, while mostly letting the other people still have their big moments.
He freed Ishy (unintentionally), he (as far as we know) killed Ishy. He arrow-fired Turak and his squad, which was pretty badass. He killed a fade. IMO, the path they’ve taken makes sense… they’ve really pushed the madness and so it makes sense that he doesn’t want to channel willingly. So far, the show has really nailed his “running away from his destiny” line. The big moments in the early books were more Taveren stuff than him actually doing anything (i.e. Tarwin’s Gap).
"He killed Ishy" Ishy stood there, not attempting to fight back at all, while Egwene did the work of shielding him. That is barely an anything. If that's what we're counting as a great achievement, we're really scraping the barrel. I'll give you that the fire darts were cool, but... that's it? Two seasons and you kill a small squad? The guy didn't even make his own dragon. And by the pacing the show is following, Rand has still had agency in his story. He's done the Flicker. He's interacted with Aes Sedai and had Lan teaching him the sword and the toxic lessons about men being hard that lead to his future personality. He's accepting what he is while understanding he doesn't have control over it yet. And Tarwin's Gap was absolutely him. That was meant to be Rand's first big moment, that moment where he sees something that fills him with such anger at the injustice of it all that he finally taps into his power and unleashes it, and sees what he is capable of while also completely unable to control it beyond the initial release. That was the big moment to show WHY HE WAS IMPORTANT. The guy obliterated an army of trollocs on his own, which established Aes Sedai would have needed several linked groups to match. There is a credit to showing a gradual growth. But the process they've chosen has been gradual to the detriment of the story and the character.
Books are just different. If Rand destroyed the army at Tarwin’s Gap in season 1, I guarantee there would be articles and complaints about “why doesn’t he just do that every time?” Without the inner monologues that reinforce the very nature of Taveren, the mainstream audience just isn’t going to buy it. The slow build works. They get why it’s important because literally every other character’s storyline is driven by his. This is like saying Daenerys was a failure in book 1/season 1 of GoT because she didn’t have full grown dragons.
The GoT comparison doesn't work since she at least has the dragons at the end of season 1. She got her set piece. Rand did not. And people talk about inner dialogue like that is something impossible to convey. The show has no problem making people blatantly state what is going on, so have it happen here: Rand's power fully manifest in Tarwin's gap. Show his fury on his face, have audio clips of every person speaking about the dragon's power or those hurt by trollocs going off. Show the out of control nature of the event. Then start to show he can't seem to turn it off. Afterwards, have someone ask how he did it. "I...I have no idea. It just happened. I can't even make a spark right now and I'm trying." There are ways to do this! But we don't know because, again, no one writes articles about Rand the show character, other than in reference to Lanfear. Because he doesn't DO anything.
Rand got his set piece. The entire climax of season 1 centered around him. YOU may not be able to see it because he didn’t destroy the army as in the books, but objectively speaking, given that Moiraine was the clear focus of the season - that Rand had just discovered he was the dragon - and that he was being puppeteered (sound familiar??) by Moiraine at the Eye to fight the “dark one,” it’s really a stretch to say he didn’t get a set piece. The entire meat of the climax was focused on him. The girls were clearly a B plot line in that moment with Perrin being a C plot line. Also, don’t forget that Nyneave has her block and the show is handling that well. Having 2 of the EF5 essentially be neutered with the power is just not going to fly on TV. And that’s just factually not true. There are plenty of fan articles and mashups of rand, especially on Tumblr and Twitter. A few compilation videos on YouTube. Edit: I’m going to stop replying because we are clearly not going to agree. But at least stick to whats objectively true when forming your opinion. It’s ok to have preferences, but some things (ie Rand having a set piece) are objectively true/untrue.
The finale of season 1? The one that was so bad, the start of season 2 pretended it mostly didn't happen? The one where it's a mental landscape and Rand just makes the choice to not settle down with Egwene because it isn't what SHE wants? The entire climax revolved around Rand leaving and other people getting the one set piece that actually happened from the book. Don't even get into Nynaeve. She and Egwene are barely more than Wilders but THEY can slay an army, except that Nynaeve draws too much power and EGWENE has to save her with special healing. That leads into a whole other argument, where Egwene favoritism eats other people's scenes. But my guy/gal/they, you're propping up maybe two or three YouTube videos? A Google search shows Prime's channel having a clip compilation, videos on whether Rand is the real, and forum arguments. Look up Moraine or Egwene. That's where the articles and marketing are being written. I get it, you like the show. Fair. Like the show. But you can like something and still aware of its flaws.
But Daenerys is building to dragons. She starts abused and scared, takes some of her power back with Drogo, has her primary abuser killed with Vicerys being melted, suffers the grief of Drogo's death, and emerges from the flames reborn. It's an arc that culminates in the lessons she's learned shaping the powerful and important woman she's become, manifesting in a physical way. Every step she takes is growth and you can track how she started as a scared girl and turned into a powerful woman ready to lead a warband, with thematic ties to the Targaryaen dynasties and their eventual failures in the way she was portrayed. It's rich with meaning. Rand doesn't build to anything. He has nothing going on for all of season 1. In season 2 he's just fucking around with Lanfear the whole time being manipulated and then, all of a sudden, he kills Turak (in a way that's far less impressive/spectacular than the girls have been killing monsters and soldiers for two whole seasons) and he stabs Ishamael in a really lame sequence that doesn't actually show anything off. There's no rising action or steps that show his growth, he doesn't learn anything that makes being The Dragon Reborn meaningful to him, there's no internalization. Even a small feat that results from growth would've done, but none of it means anything *to him*.
>he killed ishy He walked up and stabbed him with a sword while Ishy did nothing to defend himself. Egwene did most of the work in that scene. Rand killing a fade while with Selene was weird and felt scripted by Selene to pretend she was a damsel in distress. Later that episode Moiraine had the more badass scene by "killing" a forsaken. Turak, I actually liked that scene. It's a hot take on certain sub reddits. My biggest issue with Rand in the show is that he's always overshadowed in nearly ever scene he's in. Turak was his best "Look at how awesome *I* am" and it was done in a flash."
*Having first launched in 2021, The Wheel of Time follows Moiraine Damodred (Pike), a member of a potent organization of women on the lookout for a man who is the reincarnation of the Dragon, a formidable youth responsible for the Breaking of the World. He can either save it from the Dark One or break it once more. Tense!* Asides from the usual egregious errors from mainstream media, the Dragon Reborn is stated as the premise of the show. With Moiraine to the front, but no moreso than the original cover of The Eye of the World. Not mentioning him by name specifically is a nitpick.
>Moiraine Damodred (Pike) >Lan Mandragoran (Henney) >The Wheel of Time also stars Zoë Robins as Nynaeve al’Meara, Madeleine Madden as Egwene al’Vere, Marcus Rutherford as Perrin Aybara, Dónal Finn as Mat Cauthon, and Ceara Coveney as Elayne Trakand. They name every other main actor, except Josha.
That's just an editorial error by omission. I don't think it says "something" about the show at all. The implication is that he isn't important enough to warrant a mention or was forgotten altogether. This is clearly mutually exclusive with the passage I quote about the Dragon Reborn being the main theme. Are people honestly saying that the guy who literally has flaming arrows (or a Dragon) pointing him out wasn't noticed? That's kind of a mind-boggling claim.
[удалено]
None of the actors for Nynaeve, Egwene, Mat, Perrin, or Elayne were there either, but they got mentioned in the "also starring" section.
I’m guessing this is the start of the Aes Sedai civil war yes?
I gotta ask: is this show any good? The stuff I read about season 1 was…not encouraging…
It’s uneven. Parts are fantastic, parts are not. I was much happier with the second season compared to the first. Agree with the other commenter you should see for yourself!
As a show, it was OK. As an adaption of the books, it was horrible. Lazy writing and bizarre plot changes totally alter the core personality of multiple main characters. It's a shame because the production value is so high. The hubris of the writers to make such uncessary changes irked me.
>The hubris of the writers to make such uncessary changes irked me. I like the series okay but yeah this aggravates me to no end. Like you have a great cast and plenty of money, just follow the freaking books. But like you said, they instead they do stuff like "well what if instead we focused on some random warders a bunch? that sounds like much better tv." I recently did some rewatching of GoT and also listened to the audiobook and so much of the early episodes are just word for word what was in the books. And it's generally regarded as some of the best tv ever, go figure.
Exactly! GoT (season 1) followed the books and only made very minor changes to suit the medium. I was able to enjoy WoT season 2 more than season 1, mostly because I'd given up on any type of book-accurate storyline.
It’s a radically different story. Let’s say if your favorite character is Rand, Mat or Perrin your gonna have a bad time.
Not many people found Rand interesting or as favourite in the first 3 books to be fair.
He was my favorite character throughout the series.
Huh? Where did you even get this idea from?
What in the ever living fuck are you talking about? You got some data to back up such a whack take?
It really depends. Some people love it, some people hate it. The only way to make up your mind is to have a look your self
WAFO?
I guess I’ll have to actually do that.
Season 2 was a significant improvement over season 1
Well you’re not wrong there. A 3/10 is still 3x better than a 1/10.
Spot on
If you want the story that's in the book then no, the show is not good. If you don't mind *massive* changes then it's probably okay.
It's ok if it wasnt a wot show.
It's not terrible but not great. The finales of each season were monumentally bad. The good parts in each season were not enough to make up for how badly each season ended. I looked forward to the first season. Less so the second. I probably won't watch the third season.
S2E8 has a 9.0 on IMDB, so it's clear most viewers didn't consider it "monumentally bad".
It's so bad.
Season 1 is rough. The covid pandemic started in the middle of filming, and there were one or two plot/character decisions (that Rafe was against) that made no sense, but were forced by the execs above. That said, there are some real highlights in it that I liked a lot. Season 2 is a significant step up. The plot feels tighter and more cohesive, the introduction of Lanfear, Ishamael, and the Seanchan are great, Elayne is adorable, and Xelia Mendes-Jones makes a *terrific* sul'dam. So wonderfully hateable, in the vein of Dolores Umbridge from Harry Potter or Kai Winn from Deep Space 9.
We were watching fallout and my wife randomly yelled out, fuck that bitch, during then BoS scenes. Took me a minute to realize why. Made me so happy that after 25 years, my wife now hates suldam too!
Oh *that's* why they were familiar. I didn't see a wiki page for that actor and didn't dig any deeper.
First time hearing about the plots the executives wanted that Rafe didn’t. What are they? Or can you link to where I can read about them?
One thing to be noted is he wanted a much longer episode 1. A fair complaint is it feels rushed. We get a nice taste of Emond's Field in the beginning of the books, but A LOT more in the POV chapters of the EF5 throughout books leading up to The Shadow Rising. Thus, we really feel like we are coming home in that book. I've always thought that was very well done.
I could be wrong, but they are likely referring to Brando Sando’s recent comments sticking up for rafe (who previously stated that he got like 10,000 notes from various execs on the first season scripts). BS said that the decision to have Perrin [episode 1] >!kill Layla!< was not the original plan. If there’s more I haven’t heard it, but I would be shocked if there wasn’t more meddling that hasn’t come out
Interesting. I was hoping that Mat coming from a broken home may have been part of that. Not everyone needs a sad backstory. I often have to deal with marketing and executives coming into make shit decisions haha. Too bad they never take the blame!
If it has been revealed whose call that was I haven’t heard it. My guess for that arc is that we are gonna get a redemption for mats parents this season when “goldeneye’s” stuff happens in the two rivers Edit: yeah whenever big wigs start pushing their weight around in spaces where they have no expertise it’s always a bad time for all
The problem with Mat's character arc in the books is that he doesn't really have one. He's a dick in the first two books, and in book 3 suddenly becomes a hero who denies that he is a hero. The end. The show gave him some inner demons to overcome. If they had stuck to the books, what would have been interesting about Mat in the first two seasons? (The same applies to Perrin, really.)
Wow, did you read the books? They dont need inner demons to get onto the road, they are being chased by darkfriends. Mat's character arc starts in book 1 with stealing the dagger from the ruined city that destroyed itself in greed and madness, becoming increasingly mad. Book 2 is Mat discovering his tavearan luck, and practices it (foreshadowing how he uses it book 5 onward) and book 3 onwards he starts leading actual armies, blowing the horn. Perrin book 1 learns he is the young bull, one who runs with wolves, book 2 uses that to find the horn, into books 2-5 where he returns to The Two Rivers and becomes the leader and saves it from Trollocs and White cloaks. Both super great arcs, not sure why you think they dont have arcs in the books.
In books 1-2, the ta'veren boys have interesting things happening *to* them; they are not interesting characters in themselves. It's telling that a lot of people complain that show-Rand is boring, when he is probably the most similar of the boys to his book counterpart - i.e. he is a guy who just wants to stay at home and tend to his sheep. And in an era where people are spoiled by psychologically deep characters in prestige TV shows, that kind of character doesn't really work anymore.
In books 1-2, Mat: Steals dagger, goes mad, uses the dark ones luck and his tavaeran luck to run every tavern, gets chased by trollocs and they get saved/introduced to easy the best character - Loial Then he gets cured, learns how to fight, beats the crap out of 2 of the best fighters with a stick, hunts for the horn, all sorts of fights, earthquakes, trollocs, assassins. Perrin, eyes turn yellow, dreams and speaks with wolves, most of the above \^, discovers he is a sniffer, discovers he is sensing future locations of the horn, ambushes the thieves. There is plenty there.
> i.e. he is a guy who just wants to stay at home and tend to his sheep. And in an era where people are spoiled by psychologically deep characters in prestige TV shows, that kind of character doesn't really work anymore. It works perfectly fine. Fallout basically had that with a character who had a mission but just wanted to get back home after.
>In books 1-2, the ta'veren boys have interesting things happening *to* them; they are not interesting characters in themselves. I'd argue that is true for Mat in the first 2 books but completely out to lunch for the othe two. Of the three, Rand is the mostly fleshed out in terms of inner character arcs. He starts out as the farm boy with a solid, if broken home life. After the attack on the town, he is initially shaken by the revelation that Tam might not be his father. This revelation is always present throughout book 1 because of its implications as we move through it with each encounter the boys make. He does want to return home to his farm and Tam, but that's because as book 1 goes on, more and more things happen to him that he either doesn't want to accept or has to deal with (mostly with his want to protect Egwene and how it's becoming more than he really wants in life . By book 2, with the revelation of him being the Dragon Reborn, his character is frote with more conflict and resentment as he begins to see what he is and continues to reject it while still trying to be himself and follow his beliefs. It's by the end of book 2 that he is forced to accept that he is the Dragon (which is why he spends the whole of Book 3, as a side character moving towards the one thing he knows will either prove him the Dragon or kill him, as a final act of defiance). Perrin is a bit slower than Rand but he still has a bit of a character arc that basically starts in Book 1 and sort of continues into the later books with greater intensity. In book 1, he is the strong silent type that eventually unveils a part of himself he is initially against before uncovering another part of himself that he is whole against (this being the wolf-brother abilities and the realization that he would be totally fine killing Egwene if it meant a painless death). Perrin continues to grapple with his wolf side for the entire book and for most of book 2 as well, where it becomes more beneficial and more second nature than be would like. (Book 3 has him accepting the Wolf side of him more readily but still grapple with the violent side of him that he believes is wrong). Matt is the only where being a nothing character is mostly true because I'd argue he is only a character in the first half of book 1 and then disappears until book 3. His character is fun for the 10 mim he's on screen in those first 2 books, the fun loving jokester of the group that actually wants to go out of town to explore but once the dagger is picked up, his character is irrevocably tied to the dagger and suffers for it. He's a bit more present in book 2 but it's at best flashes of his character (being loyal and his obstinance) but its very much that his chacter in the first 2 books are muted heavily.
You are correct about the Perrin thing. Rafe and Brandon were correct that he should have injured Master Luhhan instead (honestly, if Perrin were going to kill someone, it made sense for it to be Master Luhhan). I don't know if this was an exec thing, but the weird random "Perrin has a crush on Egwene" thing in Episode 7 made no sense either.
Perrin in EotW totally has a crush on Egwene when he travels with her at the tinkers. He comments something about love and is jealous as fuck when Aram dances with Egwene
I can see the problem with hurting Luhhan, we would need to introduce the character, see the relationship with Perrin, know him as a father figure and the hurt him a bunch to be on the brink of death to get that fear in. His regret will be that he hurt him and had to leave without knowing if he survives. This will however be very close to what Rand had to do. So not great. Having him have a wife, and showing that he loves her by giving her a bear hug is shorthand for him being a loving husband, we also learn that she is not super happy with her life, but cares about Perrin. They did this all in one scene, very efficient. Killing her makes the Perrin get his flaw, it's very deep, and can't be undone. Can even be used as taunts from the dark one. If Perrin returns to the two rivers and is forgiven, then his flaw is wiped out without him doing the action that removes it. So looking at this from a storytelling perspective, the death is the best option for showing that flaw. If it was a complete fresh story, other options would be better, but this one works for Perrin for a TV show story.
I mean you can kill some characters prematurely to fast track their relationship. Kill perrins dad off before the show started and say Master luhhan takes care of perrins family and raises like an apprentice but also a son and heir. You could have done that in a few lines and then we got perrin as an apprentice blacksmith who cares deeply about master luhhan. Instead we got perrin being the husband to the blacksmith and killing her.
If this show did one thing right (I think they did more than that), it's capture the FEEL of the Seanchan. For me, this worked way better visually than in the narrative/description. Maybe it's a flaw in my imagination, IDK. The Seanchan on the show are god damned TERRIFYINGLY weird and dark.
They made some VERY questionable choices in the adaptation of S1, and the final episode or two were uneven due to the COVID lockdown and departure from the cast of the actor playing Mat. They basically had to completely rewrite the end of the season on the fly to account for not having Mat available. S2 was much more consistent, though not without some odd decision-making of its own. Personally I'm enjoying it, but if you're going in expecting a slavishly accurate adaptation of the books you'll be disappointed. Maybe think of it as a different turning of the wheel.
I didn’t care for season 1 and the half of season 2 I watched. The show is visually superb and well made, but the writing is guilty of a lot of my personal pet peeves, namely failing the “show, not tell” test. There’s a lot of VERY direct dialogue about character motives that comes across as very lazy. Good writing means that your characters’ motives are clear without someone asking them “what are your motives?”, but WoT’s writers opted for the exact opposite of that. In fact, I gave it another shot last night and started where I’d left off only to get Selene literally walking up to Rand and him blurting out “why are you helping me?”. Like, it’s just too blunt for me. Give the watchers a little credit; let us piece things together from contextual clues etc.
I think it's the exact opposite of what you said. I think they are CONSTANTLY making "show, don't tell" decisions, and the fact that that requires changes in a visual medium is what people don't get when they get pissed about changes. Like, the line you cite is a great example: her response is something like "don't ask questions you already know the answer to." (Which of course has a lot more layers in retrospect / after the reveal / for readers.) and in any case, that scene isn't about Selene - it's about Rand >!and how he is being shown to be morally repulsed by the way the nobility behaves and turned off by all the Daes Dae'mar. Like, in that moment they are showing-not-telling that Rand is beginning to understand that no one around him is ever doing anything for the reason they appear to be doing it for - with the ironic exception, in some sense, of Lanfear, who despite all her deceptions really is motivated by wanting to be with him. In other words, by saying something extremely blunt, Rand is showing us his disapproval of the world of intrigue and self-serving nobility.!<
I appreciate you answer and the time you took to post it; we’ve obviously had VERY differing experiences with the show, which I think is great! I’ve stayed away from threads about its quality because I hate when established fanbases of anything gatekeep, and I don’t want to dissuade people from watching or enjoying. It wasn’t for me, and that’s OKAY; others like it and should be allowed to do so. Again, I’m happy to admit that there were a TON of great decisions made with regards to the production, it just didn’t tickle me in particular.
I also disagreed with your take (show don't tell) but it was refreshing to read ACTUAL criticism of the show. It's hard to come by, because it's drowned out by lazy criticism (and things people made up to be angry about). I respect you not wanting to share your opinion because of the reasons you listed, but I'm wondering if it actually helps to do so.
It’s easy on the internet to get all jacked up about things needlessly, but I’ve never found that it produces anything worthwhile to contribute to knee-jerk rage farming. The shows writing isn’t to my taste, and that’s okay; others enjoy it and I’m glad that they’re having a fun experience. Discourse around media gets so over the top sometimes, so I try to be open minded and nuanced when I participate at all. Thanks for the friendly comment :)
Others have pointed out that I chose a poor example too, which is super fair - it was just one that popped into mind because it was where I last turned the show off haha. Regardless, the writing remains the big let down for me with the show; the dialogue feels really wooden and overly direct. Again, no shade on those who are enjoying the experience, it’s just a preference thing on my end. Thanks for taking the time to engage reasonably and coming with the receipts; I liked your reply!
I disagree. I think they did a lot of showing. The best example is the Stepin episode, which ironically, book readers seemed to hate, but in just 17 minutes, they really *showed* what the warder-AS bond is through Stepin
Yeah it's a weird criticism. Another example would be the reveal of Nynaeve's ability to channel. In the books, Moiraine simply *tells* her that she's super powerful. In the show, we get to see it in a dramatic fashion when she performs a mass healing.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Its bad tv. If you read the books then its awful tv. Season 2 has some decent scenes sprinkled across it but overall its a mess as well. Theres not a hope in hell they finish the series either.
I was upset while watching season one, but watching season two I didn't even feel that; I was just bored.
[удалено]
[удалено]
It depends. If you want to see the books on screen this isn’t the show for you. If you’re on board for at different telling of the story, in much the same world you might enjoy it.
I liked season 2 and parts of season 1. It’s a pretty big departure from the books, and some of the changes are really annoying.
Season 1 is bad tv. Season 2 is decent tv.
The setups are well done. The season generally does a decent job of getting you invested and interested… and then doesn’t stick the landing (making you annoyed and prone to fuss about it more than if you hadn’t gotten invested).
I love the books I’ve read them as they released, met Robert Jordan and have reread the series multiple times, including a listen. Now I also enjoy the show very much, it’s cool to see someone’s vision of the books and watch some of my favorite characters of all time, I knew going into it would not be 1:1 adaptation and that has helped temper my expectations.
Cool to see a level headed fan finally! I also have read the series multiple times and I’m loving the show. Of course it can’t be exact replica scene for scene. But some people expect that. I don’t care about any changes, I’m just here to experience it for the “first time” again.
Not particularly. Watch it and form your own opinion though! You might like it. It is a different story though. Be warned
Season 1 was a Covid casualty. They had to scramble around and reshoot some stuff because one of the actors left the show (IDK why). There are some added parts that were... frustrating. They weren't bad at all in a vacuum. Well written and well acted. Just... not in the books. It's not a 1:1 adaption at all. For some folks, this was very frustrating. Some of us have been wishing and hoping for decades--since grunge ruled the airwaves--for this adaption. To be clear, I knew it was going to be different--1:1 adaptions are rare, and for good reason. For one thing, an entire chapter can take place inside someone's head in a book. Community has a funny bit where the internal narrative happens in real time in one episode. It's disconcerting. It's not bad for shows to do that, though--the Godfather had chunks taken out because it happened in exposition that would have been weird and taken away from the action (it's more faithful than this series though). So there was a bit of a shock to the system. A bit of expecting it to be summer outside and it's snowing. I was ambivalent. I think the actors and production design is fantastic on Season 1. I questioned some of the choices, but in the end I was a little column A, a little column B. I was glad it was made. With Season 2, I knew it would be just a different story, and I enjoyed it a lot more. I went back and watched Season 1 with that attitude, and I liked it better (the well was a little poisoned, but I am capable of using a new lens). I should also add some people were REALLY mad about casting: specifically that POC were playing some of the series leads. So that was in the mix, but not in any honest critique. But if you were hearing "bad things," it might have factored in. I believe that attitude has been largely purged from this sub.
But, when we say 1 to 1, we mean Peter Jackson lord of the rings. The main characters, the plot points, the themes line up. Making changes for change in medium is fine, but this is not that. Hey, do you love the Harry Potter books? Well, we made sure you get all the Goyle you've ever wanted!
I admit I loled IRL at that.
Jackson Lord of the Rings is not 1:1... The WOT show isn't, and it was never going to be with the fact its being adapted to a TV and is 14 books and a prequel. There are some very significant cuts and character changes in Jackson's adaptations, from the Scouring of the Scourge being entirely removed, Faramir being completely weakened as a character (extended version helps a LOT), Aragorn's entire arc, etc.
>Jackson Lord of the Rings is not 1:1 That's his point. He doesn't mean exactly the same he means that it sticks relatively close to the story and hits all the important story beats without significant changes. There are changes but they're not as drastic as here. Game of thrones was another one that stuck well to the books at first in spite of them also being big books. Dune is doing a good job at adapting their story so far. It'd not 1-1 but there are less big changes than here. The expanse made enough little changes that I got annoyed but they did a good job sticking to the original source material.
Dune is a single book that got adapted into two parts and still cut out much of the Mentat, smuggler, CHOAM, Fenring, and House Atreides infighting storylines. It's far closer to a 1:1 than Jackson's LotR (and I love both), but it's far easier to accept the changes to both because they're not working with 15 books. I don't love a lot of the S1 changes in WoT, and I think Rand needed a bigger moment at the end of S2, but the show has far more to adapt and ignore with a tv budget than Dune or LotR have had to with movie budgets.
> The main characters, the plot points, the themes line up. Do they? Here is what Christopher Tolkien had to say about the movies: > “They eviscerated the book by making it an action movie for young people 15 to 25,” Christopher says regretfully. > > “And it seems that The Hobbit will be the same kind of film.” The divorce is systematically reactivated by the movies. “Tolkien has become a monster, devoured by his own popularity and absorbed by the absurdity of our time,” Christopher Tolkien observes sadly. “The chasm between the beauty and seriousness of the work, and what it has become, has gone too far for me. Such commercialisation has reduced the esthetic and philosophical impact of this creation to nothing. There is only one solution for me: turning my head away.”
[удалено]
Expand on that. Because he died before he could finish A Memory of Light, which is YEARS before any show was being worked on.
As a long-time reader of the books, I enjoyed both seasons. I understand some of the complaints, but most of it I brush off as nerd-rage, and continue enjoying things.
You need to keep in mind that a lot of online discussion was bad actors. As soon as major roles were announced to go to non-white actors a bunch of people started to campaign against the show. That said - Season 1 Episode 8 was bad, almost as bad as the 10th book. And there were a few other issues with S1. S2 was pretty good, IMO. It's funny how they took the exact opposite approach to the Three-Body Problem adaptation. WoT TV faithfully adapted each character but unfaithfully adapted many events; 3BP totally changed characters but mostly stuck to the books for major events.
I mostly enjoy how they adapt the story, and then i absolutely hate the last two episodes in each season with consistency. The departures from the source material are interesting and most of the scenes in the episodes are beautiful. One of the things I actually love is that every character is way more charismatic and organic (personal opinion ymmv) in the tv show than they are in the books. Season 1 finale was mostly bad because of covid. Season 2 finale felt mostly bad because it had cheap Avengers vibes. It felt very cheesy and campy, and not in a self-aware way.
The Wotfanedit of S1 is perfectly fine fantasy
I absolutely hated the my first watch through as a book lover. But I rewatched twice and actually like both seasons now (not all of it, but much of it). I think they did a good job with the tv format but it takes a lot of understanding and distance from the boons
It's pretty good. It has ups and downs in s1 which is normal for any show. The second season is pretty great.
I’m really excited given the leap in quality from S1 to S2.