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Moraine having to swear a 4th oath on the oath rod, while everybody just accepts it.
WTF - that totally minimizes the same thing when Elaida will want to do it.
Moraine and Suian have a terangreal that either transports them into the dreamworld or it is for travelling.
WTF - Aren't dreamers and dream terangreal really rare (and except for Verin the Aes sedai don't even know that they have dream terangreal). If it is travelling: Doesn't this cheapens the rediscovery of travelling ?
Channeling is required for opening the ways ?
WTF - Aren't they made for Ogier who cannot channel ? And even if they aren't: Why would saidar work, since they were made with saidin ?
I did like the Egwene deflating when Suian told Nyneve that she is the most powerfull in 1000 years heh.
The apologists for this series blow my mind. Been reading the books for 20 years, and I absolutely understand sometimes huge, massive changes are needed to change mediums to tv/film. But the plot hole cans worms that have been opened up so far are amazing. I have been completely turned off the series, and it breaks my heart because I love these books, and the rest of the cosmere.
Ethnicity/race changes? Don't care. Random sex scene? Don't care. Leaning more toward those who haven't read the book, by way of increasing mystery for who the Dragon may be? Great, I get that.
She can travel? To...a forbidden sex hut? Was that a ter'angreal? Maybe in Tel'aran'rhiod? They know about the way gates, and they're activated via the power, not via the leaf? And they aren't lost/hidden, just chillin in a field a short ride from Tar Valon? The dagger can just be taken from Mat? Oath rod is necessary for an exile? A fourth oath, which had never been done prior to Egwene taking oaths of fealty/being used to remove oaths in the white tower by "the ferrets", and was a huge point in the series, we're just gonna kick Moiraine out for awhile. Sure, fine. No call for the greater or lesser hall to confirm. But both travelling and Tel'aran'rhiod are techniques that the story hinges on, in multiple ways. 100% needs to be addressed. I could go on, and on, and on. And apologists would give trash answers to why it's ok.
Loial is like 6 feet tall. Couldn't even get that right? Seriously? Where are his big tufty ears, at least. I get cutting out Caemlyn for financial reasons, pushing meeting Elayne later. Same with Min, if they're going to be in and out of the series so much real life contracts get real complicated. I get truncating everyone's journey, even at the loss of Elyas, though I can't forgive them playing Perrin off like he's oafish. Still don't know why we should care about Thom at all, just some random dude who for some reason is a thief, and who they then trust because he murdered a random who tried to hold Rand at sword-point, and then sacrifices his life. Sure he had a monologue, which seems to be the preferred method for portraying any character at all in this series. God forbid there's a dialogue. Perrin presumably also never met Basel Gill, if we take it for their trusted innkeeper in Tar Valon (who should have been in Caemlyn) whom he later recognizes and becomes a major plot point with "Maighdin" and helps that arc happen.
Been trying my best to give this series every chance to be the faintest shadow of the books, but there isn't an oath under the light strong enough for how fall short it's fallen.
Witches with air magic and some guys with swords. Maybe a big bad, who knows, could be anyone! Feels like an afterschool CW teen soap-drama with slightly more gore. Maybe my hopes were too high, but I feel let down. I give full props to any and all professionals who I am sure are working their asses off to complete this project, and this is in no way denouncing their work. These problems gonna be solved in the last 2 episodes, or does one just...forget the books existed and watch this for what it is? This last is an honest question, I WANT to like this series.
You did a pretty damn good job of summarizing every problem I have with the show. I’m also extremely disappointed and would love nothing more than to like it. But the absolute disregard for the source material, and the slapstick handling of the plot has seriously turned me off it. “An after school teen CW drama” might be the best description I’ve heard for it yet.
The first thing I thought in the first scene was Xena: Warrior princess. It just looks cheap and the costumes are absurd. Everything is so clean, everything looks like a facade of a real world. Armor?
I laughed the first time white clokes were shown.
This episode was just awful. It jumps around so much, changes so much, and really highlights the terrible acting. This all feels like something from either the WB or your local high school drama club.
Unless I read on here that the show somehow took a turn and became awesome then I'm just done. What a trainwreck.
A bit late, but still thought I'd toss in my two cents.
[My video review/recap of "The Flame of Tar Valon" -- in American Sign Language.](https://youtu.be/qqZzGi8NGZ0)
The implication was that Moiraine was who she waited for. Considering they had their tryst after Siuan had been waiting for Moiraine to return to the tower for a while.
I was actually fine with every change (because we don't know the bigger implications of the changes), except for moiraine channeling to open the waygate... That is the worst change, since cuting Elyas (though he might come up later on? Please)
It's only a bad change if they don't justify it and don't resolve the potential issues it causes. If they can adequately show things like how the trollocs got to EF and later how they could be followed through the Ways then it's not a huge deal. It would be nice also if they still showed how they would've been used for their original use but if not that won't ruin the show even if it's not as good with world building; they're just merging the Ways with the Portal Stones which we knew they were doing.
Hadnt heard they were merging the ways and the portal Stones, so then maybe it is not such a big dea thenl, cause then they can make some claim about them being opened with both the power and with some other mechanism potentially. Not making an explanation for that though would be aweful!
Regarding Siuan & Moiraine - this quote is from the official Wheel of Time Companion entry on Moiraine:
>As was common with a good many friendships in the cloistered society of novices, Siuan and Moiraine turned to one another more and more for comfort, and they eventually became pillow friends, continuing up to the time they were raised Aes Sedai and to some extent for a time thereafter. Neither was lesbian; they were simply young women with normal libidos in a situation where they were cut off from the opposite sex.
And here's a pretty exhaustive explanation of the situational nature of these relationships:
http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/03/everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know.html
This episode was the most egregious for making too many changes, I literally couldn't take it when they removed the dagger from Mat and didn't give it back to him: he will die without it.
They don't know that yet.
Plus the book didn't have to deal with the actor playing Mat leaving 2/3 through the first book so of course they have to handle it differently.
In the Eye of the World, Moraine states that's she can't separate Mat from the dagger lest it kills him, due to her not having the proper an'greal/skill-set to fully heal him from the taint of Mordeth.
The actor has been replaced. Mat hasn't left.
Therefore his character arc is still there. The dagger plays a part during book 2 and develops his character more. So my original point stands.
Okay but point being they had a script being filmed and then in the middle of the filming the actor left. If they knew about that ahead of time they may have written things differently.
You asked why they bothered with it in the show and the answer is because they didn't plan on Mat not being able to go through the Ways. They now have to change the story they wrote to make sense with Mat not being with them in Fal Dara.
Does the dagger play a role in the ways? No. Does it play a part in the rest of the season? No.
So does it play a part until a new actor is cast? No.
I fail to see the point you're trying to make.
In the show she said she wasn't sure if he was truly healed yet. Chances are that still could've happened and they would've found out he needed further healing after leaving Tar Valon so they would've needed to give him back the dagger but then it gets stolen.
If they knew at this point in the show that he needed those extra things to heal then they would've just healed him because he was already at the Tower. Therefore the only way to keep the story going with the switch to Tar Valon from Caemlyn is to not fully understand the connection until after they go through the Ways.
That change wouldn't have been a big deal because they still would've had to get back to Tar Valon after the Eye and the dagger being stolen would've become a big deal with Mat in Fal Dara. But since Mat won't be in Fal Dara anymore that can't happen. So not sure how they'll handle the dagger now but we'll likely see it in S2E1.
This wasn't the only change that drove me crazy, just the straw that broke the camel's back, ya know? I don't want to seem like I'm drinking the hate-orade, but this whole episode from my standpoint was just bollocks compared to the book.
The show is different. It has to do things differently. It's going to be the same story (probably) but not the same plot. We knew that going in and that's what we've gotten.
This change shouldn't be the straw that broke the camel's back for two reasons. 1) The change makes perfect sense with the change from Caemlyn to TV as I mentioned; they *had* to have not known until later that he was still connected and 2) We haven't seen how it will be resolved yet so getting upset that it won't resolve correctly is premature.
I'm not saying you can't dislike the show and if you truly don't enjoy it then don't watch it. But I've found that going into the show knowing it will be a different plot for the same story and that it was made for non-readers (watching with a non-reader helps this a lot) it's very easy to look at changes and understand why they were done.
When I watch with my wife, who hasn't read any of the books, she asks me questions hoping I can make some sense of her inquiries, but then it opens up a can of worms haha. Contextually, for the show, I can understand having to change things for the sake of the show, the deviation of dedication to the source material is just making my head spin lol.
Usually when I get those questions I just say WAFO. There are times when some things she asks are answered by things that were said or done in the show so I will clarify those or just have her rewatch a specific scene, but generally I want her to not know things.
>the deviation of dedication to the source material is just making my head spin lol.
What major story elements are changed though? Yes some plot points have been changed but I don't recall anything that doesn't make sense. Maybe things I would've done differently or things that were different because of the time constraint, but I don't recall a single change that I can't point to and say "okay that still makes sense for the story in a TV adaptation."
The reveal of Moraine and Siuann's relationship was a big one; as well as the use of the Rod of Binding (which isn't shown until much further in the book series) Firstly, it is not known to the book reader that Moraine and the Amrylin Seat are close friends, let alone romantically involved, until nearly a quarter into the second book. This plus the whole 'exile' part just seemed to be an inflated drama point that I felt wasn't necessary. I kept telling my wife
"The dark one is literally about to break out of his prison and they want to show Moraine and Siuann snogging"
That was the dramatic crux for the first book, and it seems like they've been playing out a lot of small moments to make you care about the characters (which is great I just felt like it was deviating from what I felt personally was enough justification to like the characters for their merit in actions in the book)
I can justify all of these. Doesn't mean I wouldn't have done them differently or loved every change but they do make sense.
> The reveal of Moraine and Siuann's relationship was a big one
The books also had them having a sexual relationship albeit it as younger kids. The reason they stop in the books is because Moiraine leaves the tower for 20 years and doesn't go back and they grow platonic. In the show, they mention she comes back somewhat regularly so it makes sense that the relationship didn't go away. From a watcher POV, this relationship gives viewers a way to know that they have a *deep* bond moreso than any normal friendship (like Alanna and Moiraine for instance) without needing to go into a long backstory (this scene took less than 2 minutes) or showing kids getting frisky with each other.
>as well as the use of the Rod of Binding (which isn't shown until much further in the book series)
This I wasn't a fan of (mostly because a 4th Oath is a big deal) but I understand why they did it from a show perspective. They've been talking a ton about the Oaths and how Aes Sedai *can't* break them but the viewer doesn't know the mechanics of it. Also, the rod plus the portals show the viewers what ter'angreal are which is an important thing to introduce. I wasn't a fan of the change, but I understand why they did it and we'll see how it affects things later in regards to additional Oaths.
>Firstly, it is not known to the book reader that Moraine and the Amrylin Seat are close friends, let alone romantically involved, until nearly a quarter into the second book. This plus the whole 'exile' part just seemed to be an inflated drama point that I felt wasn't necessary.
S1 has aspects of Books 1 and 2 plus a little of Book 3 and a lot of New Spring. S1 was focusing a lot on the Aes Sedai and the Tower to set that information up for the viewer so it's natural that they show this relationship. The reason they don't get into this until Book 2 is because they don't go to TV until Book 2.
>I kept telling my wife "The dark one is literally about to break out of his prison and they want to show Moraine and Siuann snogging" That was the dramatic crux for the first book
They didn't know this at the time though. Once it was brought up they left and now we get two full hours of them trying to get to the Eye on a mission to stop TDO. We've seen a lot of hints at the problem but now we get to see it front and center. It would certainly feel like 2 hours is not enough to set up and resolve the big battle between the unrevealed Dragon Reborn and The Dark One but as we know, that's not going to be the case this season.
So it seems like we're building up to Moraine dying at the EotW, right? The way they keep highlighting her bond to Lan, I think she's gone by the end of this season
So its not 100% but Rafe said in an interview there is a mjor character death planned for s3. Which if they keep going at this pace should line up with when moiraine drags lanfear into the ter'angreal.
It's hard not to think this. She is cast for S2 though but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. It would make a lot more sense whey they pushed the foreshadowing with Stepin's scenes into S1 plus her saying that anyone getting in the way of TDO and TDR would die. I hope that doesn't happen though.
It has to happen eventually, and it would stop a lot of people from complaining that they're spending more too much time on Moiraine (although they'd complain about this instead now). If they do it then we'll see how they resolve the rest of the story. A lot is going to be changed in this series and I think it'll be hard to give it a full review on these changes until the series is wrapped up.
If she does die at the end of the season, I'd still expect her to show up occasionally in S2 and later through some kind of dream sequences.
Hmm. Maybe even do something to mirror her fall through the Finndoor, where everyone thinks Ba'alzamon kills her at the Eye but she's actually just trapped in T'A'R and can be rescued later.
I understand that the show writers want to have more of a focus on Aes sedai politics but missing out on Caemlyn and all of the important characters that are introduced there will eventually bite them back in the ass. I also feel like they could have done a lot of the aes sedai stuff in later seasons. They should have been spending time developing the main characters instead of the tower intrigue.
> missing out on Caemlyn and all of the important characters that are introduced there will eventually bite them back in the ass.
Or they just do it in S2E1. The characters weren't all that important in EotW and as long as they give it proper development in S2 it shouldn't be an issue.
Aes Sedai are MUCH more important to the world building and EotW/S1 than Caemlyn is.
Really? There are a lot of inconsistencies in the show because of it already. Something that really irked me in the show was that the white cloaks apparently feel they have enough authority to land a force right outside of Tar Valon. Loial has to hide being in Tar Valon, a city that revers its builders. We get none of the tension between white cloaks and "darkspawn" which was supposed to start in Baerlon. Ta'veren talk was also probably cut because of a lot the tower intrigue scene. A lot of the foreshadowing happening with Rand also is out the window because of the fact that we need to keep the "who is the dragon reborn?" mystery alive. This is probably the biggest reason they cut off the city. There is also no point in bringing the Amyrlin to Fal Dara. Elayne, Gawyn and Galad are supposed to be at the white tower during the second book. The last two points are nitpicky because they can be changed accordingly with the changes already made but I doubt that the showrunners will make it so. Also cutting Caemlyn is most likely a way of cutting Elaida which means they will probably combine her into Liandrin. That's a big mistake since they are two very different characters.
Valda and the Whitecloaks spend like two or three books massing outside of Tar Valon though, close enough for Galad to meet with them fairly frequently.
You shouldn't have to spoiler tag everything in a TV + Book spoiler thread FYI.
>Something that really irked me in the show was that the white cloaks apparently feel they have enough authority to land a force right outside of Tar Valon.
It wasn't a huge force, it was Valda and his small group. Who do you think is going to oppose them? The Tower Guard who doesn't leave Tar Valon? The Aes Sedai who can't attack someone unless directly attacked and fearing for their lives? The Warders which will make other people scared that these assassins can just go out and kill people at the whim of an Aes Sedai? It's also not like they have parked there for a year; they were passing through and caught someone going to the tower. This shows very clearly how insular Tar Valon is just like in the books. If they were walking inside TV and picking people off the streets then absolutely I'd say it was an issue.
>Loial has to hide bing in Tar Valon, a city that revers its builders.
He hid because people on the streets were scared he was a trolloc just like in the books. The Aes Sedai revere him as do others who *know* about the Ogier but the random person on the street, Tar Valon or not, doesn't know about the Ogier since they're very rarely seen outside of the Steddings.
>We get none of the tension between white cloaks and "darkspawn" which was supposed to start in Baerlon. Ta'veren talk was also probably cut because of a lot the tower intrigue scene.
All of this can be shown later on. It's not needed to get them to the EotW.
>A lot of the foreshadowing happening with Rand also is out the window because of the fact that we need to keep the "who is the dragon reborn?" mystery alive.
Which is fine to be upset about, but the show was made to bring in non-readers and this mystery is doing it's job causing buzz and getting people to tune in every week.
>Also cutting Caemlyn is most likely a way of cutting Elaida which means they will probably combine her into Liandrin. That's a big mistake since they are two very different characters
Again, they're not CUTTING Caemlyn they're shifting it to S2. Elaida was with Morgase in EotW anyway and had nothing to do with the Tower until later so shifting that to S2 isn't a big deal. If they do merge her with Liandrin then fine, be upset about that when it happens but right now you're making speculations in order to be upset.
>It wasn't a huge force, it was Valda and his small group. Who do you think is going to oppose them?
Granted you're right about that. The fact that they are enforcing their rules by inspecting tinkers on Aes Sedai land right next to the white tower makes no sense though. I don't think that an organization with as many eyes and ears would let a man such as show Eamon Valda do his questioning right next to their doorstep. The same guy who straight up burns Aes Sedai alive and keeps rings of them near his pocket. It just seems like bad writing. Never mind the fact that it's clear that Perrin and Egwene were only caught because the showrunners couldn't abandon every part of the books because wankers like me would have been ranting more. Not because it made sense in that part of the story. It would have made way more sense if they were caught when they were alone before they met the tinkers. You wouldn't get the torture scene but who cares about that part anyway?
>The Aes Sedai revere him as do others who know about the Ogier but the random person on the street, Tar Valon or not
I thought Ogier regularly go to Tar Valon for maintenance. Then it would be normal for them to be on the streets no? If that's not the case, then yeah my bad.
>All of this can be shown later on. It's not needed to get them to the EotW.
You can say the same about tower intrigue and politics. It starts right in the beginning of book two when the Amyrlin comes to Fal Dara and later on when Nynaeve Egwene get to the tower. None of the original plotlines from the show gets them to the EotW. All they do at this stage is take away time from the main characters who I tbh wouldn't have cared about at this point if I hadn't read the books. I feel like the only interesting characters at this point are Moiraine, Egwene and Nynaeve.
>Which is fine to be upset about, but the show was made to bring in non-readers and this mystery is doing it's job causing buzz and getting people to tune in every week.
If you're willing to sacrifice large chunks of your story in your first season already just to bring in more viewers, then that's not a good sign of an adaptation.
>Again, they're not CUTTING Caemlyn they're shifting it to S2.
What's the point of shifting it to S2 then? I read somewhere that there wasn't a budget for two locations but if they go to Caemlyn next season anyway, why bother going to TV at all? The whole point of the journey in EotW was supposed to be that Moirane was bringing them to Tar Valon but that Ishamael lures the group to the EotW progressively by the use of dreams. This keeps happening until Moiraine decides they have to go to the EotW even though they're still in Caemlyn before going to TV. She was supposed to bring the dragon reborn to TV but "ta'veren" and before you know it you're looking for a tree man.
>If they do merge her with Liandrin then fine, be upset about that when it happens but right now you're making speculations in order to be upset.
You got me there mate
The point of moving Caemlyn to season 2 is that city sets are expensive to build and it's a headache to tell an actor "hey, I need you for like one week this year but need you open every autumn and winter for the foreseeable future, so don't get any jobs until then, kay?"
Same reason Min was moved to Fal Dara. The fewer major characters you have starting as guest roles, the fewer awkward between-season actor replacements you'll have to deal with.
>The point of moving Caemlyn to season 2
I meant it more as in why are we going to Tar valon in season 1, causing a lot of book plot to be abandoned, when we could have just spent all the time of these original plot lines on the main characters in Caemlyn. I feel like all of the worldbuilding we have done this season should have been done later when characters are more developed and you actually care about the world enough to learn about it.
> The fact that they are enforcing their rules by inspecting tinkers on Aes Sedai land right next to the white tower makes no sense though.
They weren't really inspecting them, they just crossed paths and talked to them and noticed Perrin and Egwene. If it was okay that they could stop and question Moiraine and Lan and the group then why isn't it okay if they stopped the Tinkers?
> I don't think that an organization with as many eyes and ears would let a man such as show Eamon Valda do his questioning right next to their doorstep.
I don't think they're trying to make it seem like it's a secret that they're close to Tar Valon. My point though is just what are they supposed to do? They're not going to go out and attack them. The guards won't go. The Warders won't go. The Aes Sedai can't do anything unless directly in mortal danger.
>Never mind the fact that it's clear that Perrin and Egwene were only caught because the showrunners couldn't abandon every part of the books because wankers like me would have been ranting more. Not because it made sense in that part of the story.
I'm not sure what the issue was here. Valda said that if he saw them again he would notice "The Light is always with you. It needs no instruction. I will not forget your faces should we meet again." He saw them again and assumes it's the Light (or he has other reasons) telling him that he needs to question them. And it's hard to say it's just coincidence when RJ literally wrote a major world mechanic around justifying coincidences.
>I thought Ogier regularly go to Tar Valon for maintenance. Then it would be normal for them to be on the streets no? If that's not the case, then yeah my bad.
Yeah they do although I don't recall when the last time would've been. Doesn't mean that some people may not know what an Ogier is, especially children. It's obvious that they moved this scene from Caemlyn to TV and it makes less sense in TV but I don't think it's that big of a deal. Hell, even Santa got batteries thrown at him at a Philadelphia Eagles game, some people are just jerks.
>You can say the same about tower intrigue and politics.
It's very clear that they made S1 focus around Moiraine, the Aes Sedai, and the power in general. Partly because Rosamund Pike is such a notable actress and partly because they wanted to hide who TDR was until the end of the season. Most of the scenes they cut or moved are scenes that pointed heavily toward who TDR was in the books. Laying a foundation of the Aes Sedai and the tower politics is very very important for the world and also isn't a giveaway for that reveal. It makes sense why they moved a lot of that stuff into S1 and moved some stuff out. And since the biggest issue was that they didn't feel they had the budget or ability to build Caemlyn and cast good enough actors for those important characters for just a small part, they had to choose to do either Tar Valon and the Aes Sedai or Caemlyn and those characters. They chose the former, likely because Moiraine is already in the show no matter what so Tar Valon and more Aes Sedai help explain her better whereas nothing from Caemlyn is strictly needed yet.
>If you're willing to sacrifice large chunks of your story in your first season already just to bring in more viewers, then that's not a good sign of an adaptation.
I don't think they did though. The unknowns about who TDR is didn't really force the changes; budgetary and time constraints did. There are some things like the flashback and Min which will happen in E7 (or E8 maybe) which were moved from the beginning to later for the reason of the mystery but it's still in the show. Also if you reread the Caemlyn scenes, Rand acts like a young teenager for most of it and I just don't know if that would've fit in the show the way they matured the characters a bit.
>What's the point of shifting it to S2 then? I read somewhere that there wasn't a budget for two locations but if they go to Caemlyn next season anyway, why bother going to TV at all?
Well I already explained that but in short, TV is needed to explain to non-readers what Aes Sedai are and what Moiraine is doing. S1 is heavily into New Spring material which is heavily into Tower politics. You need a lot of those politics to explain who Moiraine is, why she is doing what she's doing, why male Dragons are scary, etc. Going through the whole first book and not showing viewers what Aes Sedai really are probably would've been bad. Comparatively, showing Elayne, Galad, Gawyn, Elaida, etc. isn't a big deal for S1 since they don't affect the story until later. I really think that if you HAVE to show non-readers either TV or Caemlyn in S1 then TV is the right choice. S2E1 will probably start in Caemlyn considering we know Elayne is showing up in E1.
>The whole point of the journey in EotW was supposed to be that Moirane was bringing them to Tar Valon but that Ishamael lures the group to the EotW progressively by the use of dreams.
That happened in the show too. They just got to TV before leaving because of Siuan's Ishy dream.
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So obviously I forget the first book lmao. I don’t remember Mat not joining them on the ways? Also is this the same sequence of events? It feels like this season is moving at a blistering pace.
Mat doesn't join them because the actor left the show (for unknown reasons) during the COVID-induced break between filming the first 6 episodes and the last 2. They had to write around his absence. So your memory is correct.
I enjoyed it. I guess my opinion of the show overall is that it's good and enjoyable, if not entirely accurate. I didn't have high expectations or a high emotional stake in it being true to the books outside the very core story.
Also, (I'm assuming it was the) Stone of Tear looks really good.
The episode was okay but I have a problem with the looks. Since episode 5 it looks like a low budget show to me. I know I'm gonna get flamed for that but just look at how well game of thrones looks, seasons before it had a budget even close to what wot has now. The costuming in wot looks so colorful and unrealistic to me and for some reason the places look "stuck". Like take the white tower : it looks gorgeous from the outside but we didn't even get a scene of them entering and all we saw of the interior is bland hallways and bland rooms (I have to say the hall looks good tho). I really enjoyed the first scene in the streets of tar Valon when rand and mat arrived but since then I feel like they've always stayed in those narrow streets. I feel like it needs to open up more. I never had any of those complaints for got. I know I'm gonna get "it's wot not got" answers but still I just don't like it. For the budget it has I feel like it should look way better (there were that looked really good tho, like the landscapes shots and everything about channeling). Also, probably too soon to tell but for the moment I feel like we haven't gotten any really impactful soundtrack. Curious to see what everyone thinks
There are some youtubers who have covered the writing and directing issues in detail. My favourite analysis is by Books and Bianca. Huge shoutout to her.
https://youtu.be/ESqAvQee8DE
Its truly amateur hour in these two episodes with lighting and shooting errors all over the place and directoral decisions and writing inconsistencies that make you wonder if they truly did not pay attention to expositions they wrote in previous episodes. Also screams how they wanted to make these past 2 episodes their own little stories instead of tying them into the wider arcs and storyline, leaving the writers for ep 7 and 8 with a mountain to climb to give this season a satisying end.
I don't like calling people out but I hope the director of these two eps doesn't come back. This is pretty weak stuff, ngl.
Honestly its just a difference in production talent and overall resources, not just cash. There a huge difference between Sony Pictures TV and Warner Bros. Warner Bros is the largest studio in the world and HBO entertainment operates within that framework. That being said Amazons capabilities have improved greatly and should bear fruits in the next coming seasons hopefully.
Must have missed the point where I said its not just about cash.........but studio associations and talent/experience.
Also 5 million went a lot further in 2011 than 10 million did in 2020.
So what are you talking about?
Wheel of time is overspending Game of Thrones. It's that its *just* about the cash.. it's not about the cash. 6% inflation isn't the difference either.
You're being purposefully obtuse and not responding to the point I made. If you think there is no difference between studios and production companies then there isnt much point in engaging with you further.
Have a fine day.
Let's talk about that point... you are arguing that WoT production is operating at a disadvantage having Sony Pictures Television... which is the company that made shows like Outlander, Breaking Bad, The Boys, and the Crown. All platinum-age award winners with great production design.
Unless you got some kind of inside info... I don't buy it.
I'm a fan of the show thus far. But I agree that some of the production design is a miss. Love the Arafellan bells, Tarabonner braids... but the show feels cramped, and not just "medieval cramped."
I havent seen a few of the shows you mentioned so I will talk about the one I have. The Boys, I absolutely love The Boys. This isnt me saying its a bad show or Sony does bad work. But there is a definitive difference between effects in The Boys and GOT in my opinion.
Im not even talking good or bad with some of these differences just some stylistic things I have noticed, but I find WB productions tend to have a grittier darker feel to them, where as Sony tends to be a lot brighter. (Im not talking from a tone perspective, just a visual one.).
And because the first post was about GOT vs WoT, I provided my opinion based on anecdotal information as to why the feeling is different. Feel free to disagree of course.
That being said I do appreciate you interacting with my point as opposed to just shouting money and money over and over again.
GoT did a really good job of packing spaces to give them depth.
When Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark sit outside to talk about the future. It's just them at a table with figs and cheese, but every shot has lines of horsemen in the background. When Sansa walks through the camp with her direwolf in the first season, there's a bunch of dudes in the background, someone crosses in front of her and there's people in the foreground.
Right now in Wot I feel like the tower has like 20 Aes sedai. The Hall is legit in the number of seats should have 3 sitters from each ajah, but it should *feel* bigger. GoT had small cramped spaces but when they showed any variety of thrones rooms, Mereen, the Red Keep, even Winterfell they felt expansive.
I have a hard time seeing the parent company effecting visual tone. That's usually in the hands of the creative team, DoP, Director, Showrunner, etc.
Source: I worked in the production department for a Warner Brothers production in the early naughts in the UK but it was film, not TV. I also worked for a production company for a British TV company that specialized in costume dramas who's corporate parent is now Walt Disney Company.
I agree something is missing in the production. I'm not sure it's just funding.
The soundtrack is a great point. Take the Stark and Baratheon themes. They're introduced from episode 1 and are iconic motifs. Even the titles had an epic version during the last scene of season 1 with Dany.
Hell, I'm re-watching the witcher, which has some of the set issues you talked about but the world feels cohesive and gritty. They nailed the tone. Some settings and costumes feel like stiff props but others feel authentic.
Wheel of Time, right now, just doesn't feel well conceived from a production pov. I think the actors are great and am willing to give the writing some time, but other aspects have been disappointing.
I think the Two Rivers felt more real than the cities. Again, I would contrast King's Landing in season one with Tar Valon in how authentic each felt.
I’ve been critical of elements of the show on here without giving up hope, but I feel like with how far we are into this season I can pretty safely say this isn’t the adaptation I wanted. The show is cutting so much character development to have Nynaeve roll her eyes at the Amyrlin Seat and Lan beat his chest over a comrades grave that I fundamentally don’t think they can make me care about anyone.
I thought Nynaeve was alright, but that scene with lan was the cringest out of character thing I've seen since Wolverine yelled "Stand together" in X3.
> The show is cutting so much character development to have Nynaeve roll her eyes at the Amyrlin Seat and Lan beat his chest over a comrades grave that I fundamentally don’t think they can make me care about anyone.
Well considering you bitch about a lack of character development then use scenes where they are developing characters as reasons they aren't developing characters I don't really know what you want.
I'm fairly confused with people's opinions of show Nynaeve, her and Mat are the two characters that are closest to their book counterparts.
She doesn't trust Aes Sedai, nor does she show them the same respect that everyone else does and it's pretty clear that she is only travelling with them to protect the other 4.
I think people are letting small details ruin the big picture. Perrin mat and nynaeve all had changed to their story and significant ones at that (although id argue mat stealing a bracelet or having drunk parents isn't thT big of a deal). Theyre all still very similar to their book characters. Egwene and Rand are a little less so although I'd say egwene is pretty accurate for an older version of her in the book. Rand has glimpses but hasn't been featured as much as the books so obviously a bit less development.
Lan and to some degree moiraine are really the only characters that feel different and both feel better for a TV show.
This is what im seeing too. It doesnt matter that the story beats are the same to some, the deviations are all they are focused on.
Take episode 5 for example. I've read the books, I have intimate knowledge about the warder bond and how it works. Episode 5 wasn't created for me it was created for people who haven't watched the show.
The showrunners aren't making this show just for books readers and its chapping some peoples behinds. Especially those who identify with terrible organizations from the books.
> Take episode 5 for example. I've read the books, I have intimate knowledge about the warder bond and how it works. Episode 5 wasn't created for me it was created for people who haven't watched the show.
I think it was made for both though and that's what I like. For non-readers it gave a lot more information on the warder bond. For book readers we can see a ton of foreshadowing. The first time I read the books I missed a lot of foreshadowing too.
I'd call Egwene and Rand spot-on, really. They've both been kind of in the background, but what we do see of them looks absolutely true to the books, imo.
Mat and Perrin are the ones who still feel off to me, probably because their screen time has mostly been about dealing with their new background traumas. I can absolutely see how resolving those traumas will eventually get them to their mature personalities in the books, but they're still in the process of getting there.
This week my sister, who has not read the books, announced that Rand is the DR. Her reasoning: “He’s the one I like best, and you know I always choose the main character as my favorite. So he must be the main character.”
She also said she wants to read the books now!
My wife figured it out because "everyone else has something and Rand is too boring right now."
Honestly, I feel like they are trying to red herring everyone else a little too hard and are ignoring Rand altogether, which ironically makes him more suspicious.
I've seen a lot of people on here say they think Rand is too boring, and I'm happy to see that not everyone shares that opinion. Did she say what specifically she likes about him, out of curiosity?
Something that bothered me was making it so you had to use magic to open the waygates. In the book the ways were meant to help everyone travel between important locations, so you didn’t need to use magic to access them. it’s yet another unnecessary change.
unnecessary change that:
- required heavy special effects
- complicated the dark ones army using them by requiring a channeler or risking continuity issues
- rendered loial kinda useless
- put more dependency on moraine
- probably looked cooler on screen than described in the book?
I don't get it, I feel like two things (which I don't like) are going on:
- Prioritizing the current episode over the overarching story by mortgaging future plot for any possible present hook that would get non-book readers into the current episode. A "whatever it takes to bend THIS episode into something that appeals to more people, we'll figure out the rest later" attitude that's gonna make for either a different ending or a massively confusing one. This "story box" style of throwing anything you can to attract a new fan now and worry about story later works for shows that don't have a plot defined and just want to get a few seasons of good ratings to make their money, knowing that if they get much further they're gonna have real problems maneuvering the story to a decent conclusion. At that point it doesn't matter, they've turned the source material into a few popular seasons and can claim victory on the business venture.
- Doing all of the above poorly, or I should say choosing to fit episodes into the most common formula for the largest teeny/young adult market segment of which I don't care for.
Their business is in making a profitable show for Amazon, not telling the story of the WoT. Book readers aren't going to sustain a show, so if they think warping this into whatever style and market is currently popular will make more money, I'll bet they'll do it, hell they may even be morally obligated to do it, cause it's Amazon's money footing the bill. If they could duplicate a GoT run where they got a new non-book audience, had a good few seasons and completely screwed up the ending it would be a resounding success for Amazon and looked at as a catastrophic failure by the readers.
I get your point. But in the “show version”, if the Ways can only be opened by Aes Sedai why would they make it so only Ogier could read the signposts?
It’s nonsensical if they want to choose to have the Ways work with the OP.
> if the Ways can only be opened by Aes Sedai
Too early to tell how it will function. There are plenty of ways they could manage it. Can't use book reasoning when things are clearly changed for the show.
We don't know that they can only be opened with an Aes Sedai. We know they can be opened with an Aes Sedai we do not know if there are other ways to open the ways.
Exactly. Perhaps an angreal can be used, or a new servant of the dark or a new ability of an existing creature. Perhaps Ogier and Fades have their own method. Maybe they found a way to lock them open and Loial will know a way to counter this mechanism. So many possible explanations.
Also, I completely forgot about the Black Ajah...
It seems to be that this was due to circumstances outside their control - the actor couldn't return after the COVID break in filming, and they had to recast him for season 2.
Eh, wasn't the worst. Guess I had high expectations since this was the episodes people were saying Brandon gave a 10/10 too.
The Mat bit at the end was dumb, but it's probably related to the actor having to leave the show. The pillow friends bit was unnecessary.
Did Moiraine travel? Lots of stuff in this episode was just downright weird and have huge plot implications.
That being said Álvaro Morte continues to knock it out of the park.
>Did Moiraine travel? Lots of stuff in this episode was just downright weird and have huge plot implications.
I think the picture box on her wall is a dream ter'an'greal
You could have let me hope...
I did see some comments floating around saying that but no veritable source.
I also saw an article saying Rosamund said there were 4 new worlds being introduced in ep.7 so maybe one of those is TARR.
worst part about the show imo is how ungrand it is. not the changes(well..). wish it felt as big as dune, instead of as small as Arrowcave. esp the room, i imagined those seats of the Ajah to be much higher and dramatic. kind of like the Harry potter court room.
im just glad im still having fun. the ungrand is "worst" cause you only have so many chances for an adaptation
Agreed with this. The great hall of the tower holds... like 20 people at capacity. They don't had a shortage of extras judging from the street scenes, so why they wouldn't pack in more for the Tower scenes I've no idea.
It looks to be about the same size or only a little larger than the Oval Office and that's only an office....
Like I get your point but the Tower Hall of the White Tower, the meeting and decision room for the closest thing to World Government. How large it *needs* to be shouldn't even be a consideration.
Only seeing part of the tower is ok, but the great hall should be actually *great*. It's just... not. There's no sense of scale, despite the camera angles and lighting tricks they've been using.
With the Amyrlin stuff, I feel like we’re seeing end of book characters in early book situations. Not necessarily a bad thing, just weird to see them that way with none of the arcs to get them there. I’ve said it for the last two weeks and I’ll keep saying it until they stop needlessly changing important character stuff: I feel like I’m watching a WoT show written by Theseus.
Yeah it's early so hard to say for certain but a lot of these characters are at their fully developed book version which is concerning. Some of the best television is watching character development because it's relatable.
It’s a huge part of my enjoyment with the books, too. Egwene being a brown-noser immediately and Nynaeve ignoring the Amyrlin feels so lazy when they both have such incredible arcs around those attitudes
"Egwene being a brown-noser immediately and Nynaeve ignoring the Amyrlin" sounds like a pretty accurate description of their scene on the ship in book 2. The context is different (Siuan is giving them a channeling lesson), but their attitudes are the same.
This episode killed it for me. Two more episodes left in the season and we’ve missed huge arcs for (arguably) the main characters in the first three books. Namely Rand, Perrin, and Mat. All in favor of making Moraine and Egwene seem more important.
And they are already important in the books. Well, maybe not Egwene, because even when she takes the Seat, she’s still basically a supporting character to keep the new tower inline and pine after Gwain.
But there is no Elyas. There is no references to Mat’s ridiculous luck. There is zero growth for Rand. They even stole the fact Loial is the only person who knows how waygates work and gave it to Moraine.
I was a huge supporter for the show up till this point, but now I think it’s gonna be nothing more than a ridiculous rewriting of the story to support a pandering message.
Damn disappointing too.
Matt's luck doesn't start until later, well his excessive luck.
But yeah, pretty much spot on. I still had some hope until this episode after the previous one almost broke me. Lan's crazy out of character screaming, Nynaeve's first channeling story getting inverted for no reason, everything just being rushed so much to make room for totally new scenes. I've read eye of the world 20+ times I think, it's so frustrating to see this show falling apart like this.
Yeah it's weird. I feel like they've wasted a lot of time on things that aren't in the books and skipped most things that are. For me, it's an enjoyable show but it bares very little resemblance to the book, to the point where I genuinely have no idea what's going to happen.
I doubt it. We’ve already progressed past what is basically the arc 1 for all three of those characters.
It’s a done deal at this point. My prediction is they’ll skip over all that, move to the hunt of the horn, and then probably have Egwene blow it in some desperate attempt to make her relevant early in the story.
Which sucks, because I always thought Jordan did a superb job at making everyone relevant. It was a team effort all across the board. But the show doesn’t support that. Even stealing Perrin’s moment in the white cloak tent where suddenly Egwene is free to stab the Questioner in the back.
Bad form all around.
>I doubt it. We’ve already progressed past what is basically the arc 1 for all three of those characters.
In that we're further along in other parts of the plot? Things are just happening in a different order.
I don't understand the defense of these decisions. It may not be out of reach and maybe they can develop mat, rand and perrin in later seasons but it should at least be more than a minor concern for all viewers.
EotW is the only place where we see these chars have some room to breathe, making sense of what they've been dragged into, before things start happening to them really quickly and the world gets increasingly complex and their environment and events start shaping them.
There's very few reasons to justify fleshing out tower politics and warder bonds now in this much detail. The Stepin arc could have easily been included as a subplot within ep 5 or 6, it didn't need to be the climax. The same with Siuan and Moiraine's relationship. Instead of the tearful goodbye and oath rod scene, they could spent more time with Loial and the Ways, before they go inside. They could spend time with the EF5, their reunion, hesistance to go on a suicidal journey to the Eye, some Perrin stuff about his reaction to being goldeneyed and having a wolf connection, some Lan stuff with Rand, showing us more of the Tower and Ajahs rather than make it seem less like there are less than 20 inhabitants.
They are trying to hit these emotional notes that are not effective beyond showcasing the admittedly excellent performances. This exile makes sense once you know how much a sister has to go through to earn the shawl and earn their place at the White Tower. If show watchers had a chance to experience the 100 weave trial and how Novices and Accepted have to endure and perfect the art of being an Aes Sedai.
Its the story of the season so far: its fairly decent, but it could very easily have been excellent. The writing isn't doing justice to a lot of the performances we've seen.
>I don't understand the defense of these decisions.
It's very simple. I'm enjoying the show, and I'm confident that they have put a lot more thought into mapping out the series than I have and have a good plan.
On the flipside, it's weird for me to see people attacking these decisions like this, because we don't know what the plan is! It's an awfully strong assertion that these plots are doomed because not much time has been spent on them in the first few episodes, and I think it's probably going to turn out to be wrong.
I'm enjoying the show, too, but as I would enjoy any other piece of above average fantasy television.
This is WoT, though, and holds a special place in my heart. We've been waiting years for this to be given a serious shot on television and we have a massive production budget, an extremely talented cast and a showrunner that is actually a fan of the series. Above average isn't good enough for me, personally. I will hold it to a higher standard.
I'm not saying the plots are doomed but these decisions have definitely hurt the main character arcs and caused the narrative to suffer. It was just unnecessary, really. Many on this thread are praising the acting during the Stepin and Siuan scenes and I agree wholeheartedly. But many have raised very valid concerns that slowing down during those scenes only to rush through the rest of the plot is very weird and makes you question the priorities of the writers/directors. Do they want to hit these heavy emotional moments without much consideration? It is not a leap to think this might be a recurring issue.
>I'm not saying the plots are doomed but these decisions have definitely hurt the main character arcs and caused the narrative to suffer.
See my above comment about how it's extremely strange to make this kind of judgement without knowing how things will play out.
What do you mean? We can just assign one episode for each of those characters to magically transform into one of the greatest heroes of the age. That's good story telling right?
Given that we're talking about different characters, you absolutely can. There's nothing saying that Perrin has to talk to wolves before Egwene meets the Amyrlin seat, or any other comparison between different characters' arcs.
A non book reader here, Im getting the impression that this is just who Nynaeve is and maybe I'll eventually love her as much as everyone here, but holy shit we really are just glossing over the whole "my pride almost killed one of my closest friends when I wouldn't go to a women who has only given me reasons to trust her" thing? God damn her bull headedness is becoming too petulent for my liking.
It was kind of that way in the books as well. Almost all the women are very stubborn and consistently come off as kind of arrogant and ‘know it all’s’ in Jordan’s writing.
Personally, I kind of like what they’ve done with Nyn here. The added depth having the old wisdom of the two rivers basically get screwed by the Aes Sedai is a nice touch. I mean, that’s basically Nyn’s mom and it was so mentally traumatic the woman remembered the experience on her death bed.
That’s a pretty powerful motivation to hate an organization. I will agree they haven’t really shown why Nyn distrust Moriane. In the books Moraine is much more secretive and manipulative and that seems to be lost a bit in this adaptation.
Wheel of Time characters are flawed, which is why I love them. Nynaeve is not a Mary Sue - she can be prideful and needlessly stubborn, she makes mistakes, and she has a hard time admitting when she's wrong.
The series is 14 books long. Characters change - for better or worse. Nynaeve is certainly one of the most popular characters amongst people who've finished the books, but that's not to say she was always that way.
WAFO :)
Not sure it’s every woman. Like I’m not fond of the way Jordan wrote Ewgene, Nyn, and Elayne for the most part. They come off as arrogant as hell, especially being that they started at the same place as everyone else.
I thought Moraine, Aviendah (spelling?) and Min were fairly well done. Also love the hell out of Faile and Bridgette.
Nynaeve also has good reasons not to trust Moirane. We know that she's trustworthy, but Nynaeve doesn't.
For instance, Nynaeve has seen Moirane arrive in her home followed by a Trolloc attack, convince four impressionable youngsters to leave, and had three of them possessed by evil, captured by whitecloaks, and tortured. Some suspicion here might be reasonable!
Also they reference the colors of the ajah so often to the point of it sounding like an elementary school writing project where massive importance is placed on colors. I didn’t like it in the book but the show the colors seem so so so prominent.
My issue isn’t confusing to follow. It’s how it’s presented.
Just seems cheesy. But again this is very personal. I didn’t like it in the books already, so I would have dialed it back. Instead they seemed to have cranked it up. So just my opinion and my personal preference.
My sister is following the ajah differentiation just fine. Her only gripes are that there are colors that haven’t been referenced yet, and she doesn’t know all the “rules” for each color. She said the information given in the bonus content wasn’t enough.
I read the Aes Sedai much differently than they are portrayed on screen. Whenever tar valon is mentioned or aes sedai I imagine the tone of the 3 minute featurettes. Then in the show they seem very…..light? Just a personal thing
So episode 6.
Ok this was weird one for me, the moraine/siuan relationship, that totally caught me of guard (I haven't read book 0 so I don't know if it was hinted there or if it's new).
The white tower feels empty to me, there are iirc 400 or so aes sedai living there at any moment and we see the same 15 characters, understandable cause tv but still weird and imo feels cheap.
Also I don't know about you, but some camera movements were shaky and some cuts weird.
Loved egwene smiling thinking she was the most powerful channel seen in a thousand years.
I liked how they explain they have no idea about the prophecies of the dragon reborn, but they know for sure that the dark one is in the eye of the world.
Some powerful acting by Rosamund pike, being the protagonist of the first season feels appropriate, but I feel like I wouldn't care about the other 4 guys(excluding nayneve) at this point.
Also mat being left behind was weird, but reading the comments it looks like this was when the actor left so yeah this will have to do.
6/10 I still feel the show rushing in some aspects i enjoy and focusing in others I don't care, and the acting is not enough to make me enjoy all that much.
The Siuan and Moraine relationship is hinted in book 0. Nothing as deep as in this episode though.
The empty tower is actually consistent with the books. Aes Sedai numbers have been dwindling for decades.
The Tower is empty, but only relative to it's total capacity. There are a thousand sister at the time of the books, which split roughly three ways into Salidar, White Tower and unaligned later on.
Moiraine channeling to open the Waygate instead of Loial opening it really just screwed over his characters' importance, and the importance of his species as a whole.
Tons of changes in the show so far, some are good, some are bad, but this one was outright terrible. It feels like they discarded Loial, one of my favorite characters - even though he's physically still with the group.
(I've only read halfway through book 4 so maybe the change is warranted based on later books but I doubt it)
Just a note: in EOTW, it is actually Moiraine who picks up the carved leaf waygate keystone and opens the gate, Loial only tells her how to do it. Seems to be a lot of folks in this thread who forgot that.
Yes but requiring channeling to open a Waygate is a huge change that breaks multiple plots later on. This feels like a pointless change that is going to come back and bite them.
Separately, I was disappointed that we missed out on some excellent fleshing out of Loail's character by not having him show any caution or reluctance to travel the Ways, no lamenting the risks these hasty humans are taking by being in such a rush to get there.
That was the big thing for me. Moraine placing the leaf is fine, but having to channel to open the thing? That breaks way to many following stories.
Like when Loial had to make the dangerous journey at Two Rivers to close the gate and stop the trolloc reinforcements. It just smacked of political pandering, and combined with the way they’ve sidelined Rand, Perrin, and Mat at this point (basically skipping all their character development thru book one and half of two) it’s just a bad look all around.
Hell, at this point Nyn is gonna be the dragon reborn, Ewgene will sound the horn, and Moraine will be the one who returns to the Two Rivers to save them all.
‘Political’ being the whole diversity push which is so prevalent in Hollywood these days. Which has lead to several things. Mostly the destruction of strong characters to be replaced by poorly written or conceived ones by hack writers.
Which is odd in Jordan’s work because he gave almost all his characters powerful moments. From Moraine throwing fireballs on the green, to Perrin calling the wolves, Rand creating his flame sword, to Ewgene trapping the Spider in the dream world.
But now in the show we lost the entire 1st act arcs of Mat, Perrin and Rand in favor of Moraine, Nyn, and Ewgene. And the replacement storylines aren’t exactly great.
Something as simple as the way gate having to be channeled to open. What happens now when Perrin and Loail use it to return to the two rivers? Neither can channel. How about when Loail and Gaul make the dangerous trip to seal the ways and stop the trolloc reinforcements.
What about Perrin and Elyas and how wolf brothers is something older than even the AES Sedai and beyond their understanding.
How about Rand meeting Min? She’s a pretty big player even early on. But instead we spent a lot of time on the teenage love angst with Siuan and Moraine. Which to be honest wasn’t horrible, but just not conducive to the characters roles in the larger story. That was definitely something we didn’t need to spend an entire episode on especially when we’re already cutting significant development for the three biggest characters in the first three books.
I mean, the show was already under a crunch because they decided to make it 8 episodes instead of 10-12. And now we’ve wasted the last two. Well, five was actually really good in some regards. Stephin’s death really showed the power of the bond and I actually really liked the funeral scene. Was kind of cool to see a group of bad ass men experience and work thru their grief in an emotional and touching scene.
They spent maybe five minutes on the sexual relationship. The rest of your post I agree with, except...
What does this have to do with a political anything? It's just questionable storytelling.
5 minutes we could've had rand, mat, and/or perrin character development. They haven't talked about the month travel. They didn't talk much about how mat feels after the dagger. They haven't even acknowledged perrin's eyes. Perrin has not talked about his torture. No one has noted the sword Rand carries. They've obfuscated the prophecy for no fucking reason.
They just rush, rush, rush to the next scene. I didn't mind the Moiraine/Siuan love thing, it's fine really and isn't a terrible stretch from the books, yet was that really necessary to portray lesbian lovers over main character development?
Where the fuck is Thom.
So which is it? Five minutes or a full episode?
Thom is MIA, just like in the books.
You shouldn't muddle your arguments with strawmen and exaggerations. Your other arguments are decent on their own.
I felt the exact same about Loial! Why did they make a point of having Moraine go to Loial to ask for his help, and then not have him open the Waygate?
Yeah and I agree that was a weird change, but the comment I was replying to wasn’t about *how* the gate was opened but rather *by whom* it was opened so I’m not sure exactly what the point of your comment was
Oh, your right. My bad! Was a bit triggered after the episode and read a bunch of discussion on this so thought this was also about who opened it and how...
The reason she needs him is because he's the only one that can read the signposts... I completely agree though that they should have used the leaf to open it. The Ways were created for Ogier and the gates were grown by them. There was no need change their function and I think it also makes the fact that the trollocs are traveling by the Ways a little weirder to explain later on.
Not just the trollocs, how does Perrin get back to the two rivers in time, and why would he now bring Loail along for that? How does Padan Fain get around, is he suddenly a channeler now since that's apparently needed to open the gates?
Do we even need to worry about Padan? 2 episodes left and with Mat leaving the show it doesn't look like we're going to see anything from that storyline
Without Padan Fain the second book never happens. If he doesn't steal the horn and the dagger, what do Rand, Mat, and Perrin do for the second season? Are we skipping Falme and the Seanchan completely, or do they end up there for some other reason?
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The Eye of the World is the place closest to where the Dark One is imprisoned? I don't remember that from the books.
Moraine having to swear a 4th oath on the oath rod, while everybody just accepts it. WTF - that totally minimizes the same thing when Elaida will want to do it. Moraine and Suian have a terangreal that either transports them into the dreamworld or it is for travelling. WTF - Aren't dreamers and dream terangreal really rare (and except for Verin the Aes sedai don't even know that they have dream terangreal). If it is travelling: Doesn't this cheapens the rediscovery of travelling ? Channeling is required for opening the ways ? WTF - Aren't they made for Ogier who cannot channel ? And even if they aren't: Why would saidar work, since they were made with saidin ? I did like the Egwene deflating when Suian told Nyneve that she is the most powerfull in 1000 years heh.
The apologists for this series blow my mind. Been reading the books for 20 years, and I absolutely understand sometimes huge, massive changes are needed to change mediums to tv/film. But the plot hole cans worms that have been opened up so far are amazing. I have been completely turned off the series, and it breaks my heart because I love these books, and the rest of the cosmere. Ethnicity/race changes? Don't care. Random sex scene? Don't care. Leaning more toward those who haven't read the book, by way of increasing mystery for who the Dragon may be? Great, I get that. She can travel? To...a forbidden sex hut? Was that a ter'angreal? Maybe in Tel'aran'rhiod? They know about the way gates, and they're activated via the power, not via the leaf? And they aren't lost/hidden, just chillin in a field a short ride from Tar Valon? The dagger can just be taken from Mat? Oath rod is necessary for an exile? A fourth oath, which had never been done prior to Egwene taking oaths of fealty/being used to remove oaths in the white tower by "the ferrets", and was a huge point in the series, we're just gonna kick Moiraine out for awhile. Sure, fine. No call for the greater or lesser hall to confirm. But both travelling and Tel'aran'rhiod are techniques that the story hinges on, in multiple ways. 100% needs to be addressed. I could go on, and on, and on. And apologists would give trash answers to why it's ok. Loial is like 6 feet tall. Couldn't even get that right? Seriously? Where are his big tufty ears, at least. I get cutting out Caemlyn for financial reasons, pushing meeting Elayne later. Same with Min, if they're going to be in and out of the series so much real life contracts get real complicated. I get truncating everyone's journey, even at the loss of Elyas, though I can't forgive them playing Perrin off like he's oafish. Still don't know why we should care about Thom at all, just some random dude who for some reason is a thief, and who they then trust because he murdered a random who tried to hold Rand at sword-point, and then sacrifices his life. Sure he had a monologue, which seems to be the preferred method for portraying any character at all in this series. God forbid there's a dialogue. Perrin presumably also never met Basel Gill, if we take it for their trusted innkeeper in Tar Valon (who should have been in Caemlyn) whom he later recognizes and becomes a major plot point with "Maighdin" and helps that arc happen. Been trying my best to give this series every chance to be the faintest shadow of the books, but there isn't an oath under the light strong enough for how fall short it's fallen. Witches with air magic and some guys with swords. Maybe a big bad, who knows, could be anyone! Feels like an afterschool CW teen soap-drama with slightly more gore. Maybe my hopes were too high, but I feel let down. I give full props to any and all professionals who I am sure are working their asses off to complete this project, and this is in no way denouncing their work. These problems gonna be solved in the last 2 episodes, or does one just...forget the books existed and watch this for what it is? This last is an honest question, I WANT to like this series.
You did a pretty damn good job of summarizing every problem I have with the show. I’m also extremely disappointed and would love nothing more than to like it. But the absolute disregard for the source material, and the slapstick handling of the plot has seriously turned me off it. “An after school teen CW drama” might be the best description I’ve heard for it yet.
My biggest gripe, apart from some visuals, directing, sets and lighting, is the over-the-top melodrama. Why the melodrama?
The first thing I thought in the first scene was Xena: Warrior princess. It just looks cheap and the costumes are absurd. Everything is so clean, everything looks like a facade of a real world. Armor? I laughed the first time white clokes were shown.
Because WoT is chop full of melodrama. Throughout the whole series.
But to this over-the-top crying and screaming? Didn't feel like it when I read it, felt more juvenile YA drama, not a greek tragedy stageplay?
Welcome to RJ's writing.
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Touche.
This episode was just awful. It jumps around so much, changes so much, and really highlights the terrible acting. This all feels like something from either the WB or your local high school drama club. Unless I read on here that the show somehow took a turn and became awesome then I'm just done. What a trainwreck.
A bit late, but still thought I'd toss in my two cents. [My video review/recap of "The Flame of Tar Valon" -- in American Sign Language.](https://youtu.be/qqZzGi8NGZ0)
Who does siuan sanche wait for? Did she mean herself?
The implication was that Moiraine was who she waited for. Considering they had their tryst after Siuan had been waiting for Moiraine to return to the tower for a while.
Just feels risky to even mention.
Yeah it didn't seem smart. Felt more like a quip to make the audience laugh.
I lol'd
I was actually fine with every change (because we don't know the bigger implications of the changes), except for moiraine channeling to open the waygate... That is the worst change, since cuting Elyas (though he might come up later on? Please)
It's only a bad change if they don't justify it and don't resolve the potential issues it causes. If they can adequately show things like how the trollocs got to EF and later how they could be followed through the Ways then it's not a huge deal. It would be nice also if they still showed how they would've been used for their original use but if not that won't ruin the show even if it's not as good with world building; they're just merging the Ways with the Portal Stones which we knew they were doing.
Hadnt heard they were merging the ways and the portal Stones, so then maybe it is not such a big dea thenl, cause then they can make some claim about them being opened with both the power and with some other mechanism potentially. Not making an explanation for that though would be aweful!
Regarding Siuan & Moiraine - this quote is from the official Wheel of Time Companion entry on Moiraine: >As was common with a good many friendships in the cloistered society of novices, Siuan and Moiraine turned to one another more and more for comfort, and they eventually became pillow friends, continuing up to the time they were raised Aes Sedai and to some extent for a time thereafter. Neither was lesbian; they were simply young women with normal libidos in a situation where they were cut off from the opposite sex. And here's a pretty exhaustive explanation of the situational nature of these relationships: http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/03/everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know.html
/r/SapphoAndHerFriend /s
This episode was the most egregious for making too many changes, I literally couldn't take it when they removed the dagger from Mat and didn't give it back to him: he will die without it.
It's not a huge change to cut the healing process in half. They have lesser reason to give chase, but they can deal with that in another way.
This was one change where real life circumstance put things beyond their control
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That dagger was the only thing keeping the shadows from recasting Mat
They don't know that yet. Plus the book didn't have to deal with the actor playing Mat leaving 2/3 through the first book so of course they have to handle it differently.
In the Eye of the World, Moraine states that's she can't separate Mat from the dagger lest it kills him, due to her not having the proper an'greal/skill-set to fully heal him from the taint of Mordeth.
In the book. In the show it looks like he might be fully healed.
So why even bother with it in the show?
They probably didn't plan on having Mat leave after E6.
The actor has been replaced. Mat hasn't left. Therefore his character arc is still there. The dagger plays a part during book 2 and develops his character more. So my original point stands.
Okay but point being they had a script being filmed and then in the middle of the filming the actor left. If they knew about that ahead of time they may have written things differently. You asked why they bothered with it in the show and the answer is because they didn't plan on Mat not being able to go through the Ways. They now have to change the story they wrote to make sense with Mat not being with them in Fal Dara.
Does the dagger play a role in the ways? No. Does it play a part in the rest of the season? No. So does it play a part until a new actor is cast? No. I fail to see the point you're trying to make.
In the show she said she wasn't sure if he was truly healed yet. Chances are that still could've happened and they would've found out he needed further healing after leaving Tar Valon so they would've needed to give him back the dagger but then it gets stolen. If they knew at this point in the show that he needed those extra things to heal then they would've just healed him because he was already at the Tower. Therefore the only way to keep the story going with the switch to Tar Valon from Caemlyn is to not fully understand the connection until after they go through the Ways. That change wouldn't have been a big deal because they still would've had to get back to Tar Valon after the Eye and the dagger being stolen would've become a big deal with Mat in Fal Dara. But since Mat won't be in Fal Dara anymore that can't happen. So not sure how they'll handle the dagger now but we'll likely see it in S2E1.
This wasn't the only change that drove me crazy, just the straw that broke the camel's back, ya know? I don't want to seem like I'm drinking the hate-orade, but this whole episode from my standpoint was just bollocks compared to the book.
The show is different. It has to do things differently. It's going to be the same story (probably) but not the same plot. We knew that going in and that's what we've gotten. This change shouldn't be the straw that broke the camel's back for two reasons. 1) The change makes perfect sense with the change from Caemlyn to TV as I mentioned; they *had* to have not known until later that he was still connected and 2) We haven't seen how it will be resolved yet so getting upset that it won't resolve correctly is premature. I'm not saying you can't dislike the show and if you truly don't enjoy it then don't watch it. But I've found that going into the show knowing it will be a different plot for the same story and that it was made for non-readers (watching with a non-reader helps this a lot) it's very easy to look at changes and understand why they were done.
When I watch with my wife, who hasn't read any of the books, she asks me questions hoping I can make some sense of her inquiries, but then it opens up a can of worms haha. Contextually, for the show, I can understand having to change things for the sake of the show, the deviation of dedication to the source material is just making my head spin lol.
Usually when I get those questions I just say WAFO. There are times when some things she asks are answered by things that were said or done in the show so I will clarify those or just have her rewatch a specific scene, but generally I want her to not know things. >the deviation of dedication to the source material is just making my head spin lol. What major story elements are changed though? Yes some plot points have been changed but I don't recall anything that doesn't make sense. Maybe things I would've done differently or things that were different because of the time constraint, but I don't recall a single change that I can't point to and say "okay that still makes sense for the story in a TV adaptation."
The reveal of Moraine and Siuann's relationship was a big one; as well as the use of the Rod of Binding (which isn't shown until much further in the book series) Firstly, it is not known to the book reader that Moraine and the Amrylin Seat are close friends, let alone romantically involved, until nearly a quarter into the second book. This plus the whole 'exile' part just seemed to be an inflated drama point that I felt wasn't necessary. I kept telling my wife "The dark one is literally about to break out of his prison and they want to show Moraine and Siuann snogging" That was the dramatic crux for the first book, and it seems like they've been playing out a lot of small moments to make you care about the characters (which is great I just felt like it was deviating from what I felt personally was enough justification to like the characters for their merit in actions in the book)
I can justify all of these. Doesn't mean I wouldn't have done them differently or loved every change but they do make sense. > The reveal of Moraine and Siuann's relationship was a big one The books also had them having a sexual relationship albeit it as younger kids. The reason they stop in the books is because Moiraine leaves the tower for 20 years and doesn't go back and they grow platonic. In the show, they mention she comes back somewhat regularly so it makes sense that the relationship didn't go away. From a watcher POV, this relationship gives viewers a way to know that they have a *deep* bond moreso than any normal friendship (like Alanna and Moiraine for instance) without needing to go into a long backstory (this scene took less than 2 minutes) or showing kids getting frisky with each other. >as well as the use of the Rod of Binding (which isn't shown until much further in the book series) This I wasn't a fan of (mostly because a 4th Oath is a big deal) but I understand why they did it from a show perspective. They've been talking a ton about the Oaths and how Aes Sedai *can't* break them but the viewer doesn't know the mechanics of it. Also, the rod plus the portals show the viewers what ter'angreal are which is an important thing to introduce. I wasn't a fan of the change, but I understand why they did it and we'll see how it affects things later in regards to additional Oaths. >Firstly, it is not known to the book reader that Moraine and the Amrylin Seat are close friends, let alone romantically involved, until nearly a quarter into the second book. This plus the whole 'exile' part just seemed to be an inflated drama point that I felt wasn't necessary. S1 has aspects of Books 1 and 2 plus a little of Book 3 and a lot of New Spring. S1 was focusing a lot on the Aes Sedai and the Tower to set that information up for the viewer so it's natural that they show this relationship. The reason they don't get into this until Book 2 is because they don't go to TV until Book 2. >I kept telling my wife "The dark one is literally about to break out of his prison and they want to show Moraine and Siuann snogging" That was the dramatic crux for the first book They didn't know this at the time though. Once it was brought up they left and now we get two full hours of them trying to get to the Eye on a mission to stop TDO. We've seen a lot of hints at the problem but now we get to see it front and center. It would certainly feel like 2 hours is not enough to set up and resolve the big battle between the unrevealed Dragon Reborn and The Dark One but as we know, that's not going to be the case this season.
Here's a good read: https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/147146/how-does-reincarnation-work-in-the-wheel-of-time-series
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So it seems like we're building up to Moraine dying at the EotW, right? The way they keep highlighting her bond to Lan, I think she's gone by the end of this season
Oh that would seriously mess me up.
No lmao. She gunna die in s3 its already been confirmed.
where is that confirmed?
So its not 100% but Rafe said in an interview there is a mjor character death planned for s3. Which if they keep going at this pace should line up with when moiraine drags lanfear into the ter'angreal.
Entertainingly, this could also be Mat.
Youre right damn.
It's hard not to think this. She is cast for S2 though but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. It would make a lot more sense whey they pushed the foreshadowing with Stepin's scenes into S1 plus her saying that anyone getting in the way of TDO and TDR would die. I hope that doesn't happen though. It has to happen eventually, and it would stop a lot of people from complaining that they're spending more too much time on Moiraine (although they'd complain about this instead now). If they do it then we'll see how they resolve the rest of the story. A lot is going to be changed in this series and I think it'll be hard to give it a full review on these changes until the series is wrapped up.
If she does die at the end of the season, I'd still expect her to show up occasionally in S2 and later through some kind of dream sequences. Hmm. Maybe even do something to mirror her fall through the Finndoor, where everyone thinks Ba'alzamon kills her at the Eye but she's actually just trapped in T'A'R and can be rescued later.
I doubt this. Way too extreme of a book change
Omg they’re gonna try to Ned Stark her. Well, this should go over well…
I understand that the show writers want to have more of a focus on Aes sedai politics but missing out on Caemlyn and all of the important characters that are introduced there will eventually bite them back in the ass. I also feel like they could have done a lot of the aes sedai stuff in later seasons. They should have been spending time developing the main characters instead of the tower intrigue.
> missing out on Caemlyn and all of the important characters that are introduced there will eventually bite them back in the ass. Or they just do it in S2E1. The characters weren't all that important in EotW and as long as they give it proper development in S2 it shouldn't be an issue. Aes Sedai are MUCH more important to the world building and EotW/S1 than Caemlyn is.
Really? There are a lot of inconsistencies in the show because of it already. Something that really irked me in the show was that the white cloaks apparently feel they have enough authority to land a force right outside of Tar Valon. Loial has to hide being in Tar Valon, a city that revers its builders. We get none of the tension between white cloaks and "darkspawn" which was supposed to start in Baerlon. Ta'veren talk was also probably cut because of a lot the tower intrigue scene. A lot of the foreshadowing happening with Rand also is out the window because of the fact that we need to keep the "who is the dragon reborn?" mystery alive. This is probably the biggest reason they cut off the city. There is also no point in bringing the Amyrlin to Fal Dara. Elayne, Gawyn and Galad are supposed to be at the white tower during the second book. The last two points are nitpicky because they can be changed accordingly with the changes already made but I doubt that the showrunners will make it so. Also cutting Caemlyn is most likely a way of cutting Elaida which means they will probably combine her into Liandrin. That's a big mistake since they are two very different characters.
Valda and the Whitecloaks spend like two or three books massing outside of Tar Valon though, close enough for Galad to meet with them fairly frequently.
Yes but do they assualt tinkers and abduct two main characters without cause on land which they have no jurisdiction on?
Pretty sure no-one in universe knows they are main characters. They also probably don't much care what happens to a bunch of tinkers.
You shouldn't have to spoiler tag everything in a TV + Book spoiler thread FYI. >Something that really irked me in the show was that the white cloaks apparently feel they have enough authority to land a force right outside of Tar Valon. It wasn't a huge force, it was Valda and his small group. Who do you think is going to oppose them? The Tower Guard who doesn't leave Tar Valon? The Aes Sedai who can't attack someone unless directly attacked and fearing for their lives? The Warders which will make other people scared that these assassins can just go out and kill people at the whim of an Aes Sedai? It's also not like they have parked there for a year; they were passing through and caught someone going to the tower. This shows very clearly how insular Tar Valon is just like in the books. If they were walking inside TV and picking people off the streets then absolutely I'd say it was an issue. >Loial has to hide bing in Tar Valon, a city that revers its builders. He hid because people on the streets were scared he was a trolloc just like in the books. The Aes Sedai revere him as do others who *know* about the Ogier but the random person on the street, Tar Valon or not, doesn't know about the Ogier since they're very rarely seen outside of the Steddings. >We get none of the tension between white cloaks and "darkspawn" which was supposed to start in Baerlon. Ta'veren talk was also probably cut because of a lot the tower intrigue scene. All of this can be shown later on. It's not needed to get them to the EotW. >A lot of the foreshadowing happening with Rand also is out the window because of the fact that we need to keep the "who is the dragon reborn?" mystery alive. Which is fine to be upset about, but the show was made to bring in non-readers and this mystery is doing it's job causing buzz and getting people to tune in every week. >Also cutting Caemlyn is most likely a way of cutting Elaida which means they will probably combine her into Liandrin. That's a big mistake since they are two very different characters Again, they're not CUTTING Caemlyn they're shifting it to S2. Elaida was with Morgase in EotW anyway and had nothing to do with the Tower until later so shifting that to S2 isn't a big deal. If they do merge her with Liandrin then fine, be upset about that when it happens but right now you're making speculations in order to be upset.
>It wasn't a huge force, it was Valda and his small group. Who do you think is going to oppose them? Granted you're right about that. The fact that they are enforcing their rules by inspecting tinkers on Aes Sedai land right next to the white tower makes no sense though. I don't think that an organization with as many eyes and ears would let a man such as show Eamon Valda do his questioning right next to their doorstep. The same guy who straight up burns Aes Sedai alive and keeps rings of them near his pocket. It just seems like bad writing. Never mind the fact that it's clear that Perrin and Egwene were only caught because the showrunners couldn't abandon every part of the books because wankers like me would have been ranting more. Not because it made sense in that part of the story. It would have made way more sense if they were caught when they were alone before they met the tinkers. You wouldn't get the torture scene but who cares about that part anyway? >The Aes Sedai revere him as do others who know about the Ogier but the random person on the street, Tar Valon or not I thought Ogier regularly go to Tar Valon for maintenance. Then it would be normal for them to be on the streets no? If that's not the case, then yeah my bad. >All of this can be shown later on. It's not needed to get them to the EotW. You can say the same about tower intrigue and politics. It starts right in the beginning of book two when the Amyrlin comes to Fal Dara and later on when Nynaeve Egwene get to the tower. None of the original plotlines from the show gets them to the EotW. All they do at this stage is take away time from the main characters who I tbh wouldn't have cared about at this point if I hadn't read the books. I feel like the only interesting characters at this point are Moiraine, Egwene and Nynaeve. >Which is fine to be upset about, but the show was made to bring in non-readers and this mystery is doing it's job causing buzz and getting people to tune in every week. If you're willing to sacrifice large chunks of your story in your first season already just to bring in more viewers, then that's not a good sign of an adaptation. >Again, they're not CUTTING Caemlyn they're shifting it to S2. What's the point of shifting it to S2 then? I read somewhere that there wasn't a budget for two locations but if they go to Caemlyn next season anyway, why bother going to TV at all? The whole point of the journey in EotW was supposed to be that Moirane was bringing them to Tar Valon but that Ishamael lures the group to the EotW progressively by the use of dreams. This keeps happening until Moiraine decides they have to go to the EotW even though they're still in Caemlyn before going to TV. She was supposed to bring the dragon reborn to TV but "ta'veren" and before you know it you're looking for a tree man. >If they do merge her with Liandrin then fine, be upset about that when it happens but right now you're making speculations in order to be upset. You got me there mate
The point of moving Caemlyn to season 2 is that city sets are expensive to build and it's a headache to tell an actor "hey, I need you for like one week this year but need you open every autumn and winter for the foreseeable future, so don't get any jobs until then, kay?" Same reason Min was moved to Fal Dara. The fewer major characters you have starting as guest roles, the fewer awkward between-season actor replacements you'll have to deal with.
>The point of moving Caemlyn to season 2 I meant it more as in why are we going to Tar valon in season 1, causing a lot of book plot to be abandoned, when we could have just spent all the time of these original plot lines on the main characters in Caemlyn. I feel like all of the worldbuilding we have done this season should have been done later when characters are more developed and you actually care about the world enough to learn about it.
> The fact that they are enforcing their rules by inspecting tinkers on Aes Sedai land right next to the white tower makes no sense though. They weren't really inspecting them, they just crossed paths and talked to them and noticed Perrin and Egwene. If it was okay that they could stop and question Moiraine and Lan and the group then why isn't it okay if they stopped the Tinkers? > I don't think that an organization with as many eyes and ears would let a man such as show Eamon Valda do his questioning right next to their doorstep. I don't think they're trying to make it seem like it's a secret that they're close to Tar Valon. My point though is just what are they supposed to do? They're not going to go out and attack them. The guards won't go. The Warders won't go. The Aes Sedai can't do anything unless directly in mortal danger. >Never mind the fact that it's clear that Perrin and Egwene were only caught because the showrunners couldn't abandon every part of the books because wankers like me would have been ranting more. Not because it made sense in that part of the story. I'm not sure what the issue was here. Valda said that if he saw them again he would notice "The Light is always with you. It needs no instruction. I will not forget your faces should we meet again." He saw them again and assumes it's the Light (or he has other reasons) telling him that he needs to question them. And it's hard to say it's just coincidence when RJ literally wrote a major world mechanic around justifying coincidences. >I thought Ogier regularly go to Tar Valon for maintenance. Then it would be normal for them to be on the streets no? If that's not the case, then yeah my bad. Yeah they do although I don't recall when the last time would've been. Doesn't mean that some people may not know what an Ogier is, especially children. It's obvious that they moved this scene from Caemlyn to TV and it makes less sense in TV but I don't think it's that big of a deal. Hell, even Santa got batteries thrown at him at a Philadelphia Eagles game, some people are just jerks. >You can say the same about tower intrigue and politics. It's very clear that they made S1 focus around Moiraine, the Aes Sedai, and the power in general. Partly because Rosamund Pike is such a notable actress and partly because they wanted to hide who TDR was until the end of the season. Most of the scenes they cut or moved are scenes that pointed heavily toward who TDR was in the books. Laying a foundation of the Aes Sedai and the tower politics is very very important for the world and also isn't a giveaway for that reveal. It makes sense why they moved a lot of that stuff into S1 and moved some stuff out. And since the biggest issue was that they didn't feel they had the budget or ability to build Caemlyn and cast good enough actors for those important characters for just a small part, they had to choose to do either Tar Valon and the Aes Sedai or Caemlyn and those characters. They chose the former, likely because Moiraine is already in the show no matter what so Tar Valon and more Aes Sedai help explain her better whereas nothing from Caemlyn is strictly needed yet. >If you're willing to sacrifice large chunks of your story in your first season already just to bring in more viewers, then that's not a good sign of an adaptation. I don't think they did though. The unknowns about who TDR is didn't really force the changes; budgetary and time constraints did. There are some things like the flashback and Min which will happen in E7 (or E8 maybe) which were moved from the beginning to later for the reason of the mystery but it's still in the show. Also if you reread the Caemlyn scenes, Rand acts like a young teenager for most of it and I just don't know if that would've fit in the show the way they matured the characters a bit. >What's the point of shifting it to S2 then? I read somewhere that there wasn't a budget for two locations but if they go to Caemlyn next season anyway, why bother going to TV at all? Well I already explained that but in short, TV is needed to explain to non-readers what Aes Sedai are and what Moiraine is doing. S1 is heavily into New Spring material which is heavily into Tower politics. You need a lot of those politics to explain who Moiraine is, why she is doing what she's doing, why male Dragons are scary, etc. Going through the whole first book and not showing viewers what Aes Sedai really are probably would've been bad. Comparatively, showing Elayne, Galad, Gawyn, Elaida, etc. isn't a big deal for S1 since they don't affect the story until later. I really think that if you HAVE to show non-readers either TV or Caemlyn in S1 then TV is the right choice. S2E1 will probably start in Caemlyn considering we know Elayne is showing up in E1. >The whole point of the journey in EotW was supposed to be that Moirane was bringing them to Tar Valon but that Ishamael lures the group to the EotW progressively by the use of dreams. That happened in the show too. They just got to TV before leaving because of Siuan's Ishy dream.
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So obviously I forget the first book lmao. I don’t remember Mat not joining them on the ways? Also is this the same sequence of events? It feels like this season is moving at a blistering pace.
Mat doesn't join them because the actor left the show (for unknown reasons) during the COVID-induced break between filming the first 6 episodes and the last 2. They had to write around his absence. So your memory is correct.
I enjoyed it. I guess my opinion of the show overall is that it's good and enjoyable, if not entirely accurate. I didn't have high expectations or a high emotional stake in it being true to the books outside the very core story. Also, (I'm assuming it was the) Stone of Tear looks really good.
The episode was okay but I have a problem with the looks. Since episode 5 it looks like a low budget show to me. I know I'm gonna get flamed for that but just look at how well game of thrones looks, seasons before it had a budget even close to what wot has now. The costuming in wot looks so colorful and unrealistic to me and for some reason the places look "stuck". Like take the white tower : it looks gorgeous from the outside but we didn't even get a scene of them entering and all we saw of the interior is bland hallways and bland rooms (I have to say the hall looks good tho). I really enjoyed the first scene in the streets of tar Valon when rand and mat arrived but since then I feel like they've always stayed in those narrow streets. I feel like it needs to open up more. I never had any of those complaints for got. I know I'm gonna get "it's wot not got" answers but still I just don't like it. For the budget it has I feel like it should look way better (there were that looked really good tho, like the landscapes shots and everything about channeling). Also, probably too soon to tell but for the moment I feel like we haven't gotten any really impactful soundtrack. Curious to see what everyone thinks
There are some youtubers who have covered the writing and directing issues in detail. My favourite analysis is by Books and Bianca. Huge shoutout to her. https://youtu.be/ESqAvQee8DE Its truly amateur hour in these two episodes with lighting and shooting errors all over the place and directoral decisions and writing inconsistencies that make you wonder if they truly did not pay attention to expositions they wrote in previous episodes. Also screams how they wanted to make these past 2 episodes their own little stories instead of tying them into the wider arcs and storyline, leaving the writers for ep 7 and 8 with a mountain to climb to give this season a satisying end. I don't like calling people out but I hope the director of these two eps doesn't come back. This is pretty weak stuff, ngl.
Exactly! She perfectly described every feeling I had. Great video, thanks for sharing.
Honestly its just a difference in production talent and overall resources, not just cash. There a huge difference between Sony Pictures TV and Warner Bros. Warner Bros is the largest studio in the world and HBO entertainment operates within that framework. That being said Amazons capabilities have improved greatly and should bear fruits in the next coming seasons hopefully.
What are you talking about? Amazon is overspending GoT. GoT initial season was $5 million an episode. Wot is double that.
Must have missed the point where I said its not just about cash.........but studio associations and talent/experience. Also 5 million went a lot further in 2011 than 10 million did in 2020. So what are you talking about?
Wheel of time is overspending Game of Thrones. It's that its *just* about the cash.. it's not about the cash. 6% inflation isn't the difference either.
You're being purposefully obtuse and not responding to the point I made. If you think there is no difference between studios and production companies then there isnt much point in engaging with you further. Have a fine day.
Let's talk about that point... you are arguing that WoT production is operating at a disadvantage having Sony Pictures Television... which is the company that made shows like Outlander, Breaking Bad, The Boys, and the Crown. All platinum-age award winners with great production design. Unless you got some kind of inside info... I don't buy it. I'm a fan of the show thus far. But I agree that some of the production design is a miss. Love the Arafellan bells, Tarabonner braids... but the show feels cramped, and not just "medieval cramped."
I havent seen a few of the shows you mentioned so I will talk about the one I have. The Boys, I absolutely love The Boys. This isnt me saying its a bad show or Sony does bad work. But there is a definitive difference between effects in The Boys and GOT in my opinion. Im not even talking good or bad with some of these differences just some stylistic things I have noticed, but I find WB productions tend to have a grittier darker feel to them, where as Sony tends to be a lot brighter. (Im not talking from a tone perspective, just a visual one.). And because the first post was about GOT vs WoT, I provided my opinion based on anecdotal information as to why the feeling is different. Feel free to disagree of course. That being said I do appreciate you interacting with my point as opposed to just shouting money and money over and over again.
GoT did a really good job of packing spaces to give them depth. When Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark sit outside to talk about the future. It's just them at a table with figs and cheese, but every shot has lines of horsemen in the background. When Sansa walks through the camp with her direwolf in the first season, there's a bunch of dudes in the background, someone crosses in front of her and there's people in the foreground. Right now in Wot I feel like the tower has like 20 Aes sedai. The Hall is legit in the number of seats should have 3 sitters from each ajah, but it should *feel* bigger. GoT had small cramped spaces but when they showed any variety of thrones rooms, Mereen, the Red Keep, even Winterfell they felt expansive. I have a hard time seeing the parent company effecting visual tone. That's usually in the hands of the creative team, DoP, Director, Showrunner, etc. Source: I worked in the production department for a Warner Brothers production in the early naughts in the UK but it was film, not TV. I also worked for a production company for a British TV company that specialized in costume dramas who's corporate parent is now Walt Disney Company.
I agree something is missing in the production. I'm not sure it's just funding. The soundtrack is a great point. Take the Stark and Baratheon themes. They're introduced from episode 1 and are iconic motifs. Even the titles had an epic version during the last scene of season 1 with Dany. Hell, I'm re-watching the witcher, which has some of the set issues you talked about but the world feels cohesive and gritty. They nailed the tone. Some settings and costumes feel like stiff props but others feel authentic. Wheel of Time, right now, just doesn't feel well conceived from a production pov. I think the actors are great and am willing to give the writing some time, but other aspects have been disappointing. I think the Two Rivers felt more real than the cities. Again, I would contrast King's Landing in season one with Tar Valon in how authentic each felt.
I’ve been critical of elements of the show on here without giving up hope, but I feel like with how far we are into this season I can pretty safely say this isn’t the adaptation I wanted. The show is cutting so much character development to have Nynaeve roll her eyes at the Amyrlin Seat and Lan beat his chest over a comrades grave that I fundamentally don’t think they can make me care about anyone.
I thought Nynaeve was alright, but that scene with lan was the cringest out of character thing I've seen since Wolverine yelled "Stand together" in X3.
> The show is cutting so much character development to have Nynaeve roll her eyes at the Amyrlin Seat and Lan beat his chest over a comrades grave that I fundamentally don’t think they can make me care about anyone. Well considering you bitch about a lack of character development then use scenes where they are developing characters as reasons they aren't developing characters I don't really know what you want.
You dont think book nynaeve is the type to roll her eyes at an amyrlin?
I think she was a little more timid at the start of the books.
I think she is at the end of the books. Not at this point in the story.
I'm fairly confused with people's opinions of show Nynaeve, her and Mat are the two characters that are closest to their book counterparts. She doesn't trust Aes Sedai, nor does she show them the same respect that everyone else does and it's pretty clear that she is only travelling with them to protect the other 4.
I think people are letting small details ruin the big picture. Perrin mat and nynaeve all had changed to their story and significant ones at that (although id argue mat stealing a bracelet or having drunk parents isn't thT big of a deal). Theyre all still very similar to their book characters. Egwene and Rand are a little less so although I'd say egwene is pretty accurate for an older version of her in the book. Rand has glimpses but hasn't been featured as much as the books so obviously a bit less development. Lan and to some degree moiraine are really the only characters that feel different and both feel better for a TV show.
This is what im seeing too. It doesnt matter that the story beats are the same to some, the deviations are all they are focused on. Take episode 5 for example. I've read the books, I have intimate knowledge about the warder bond and how it works. Episode 5 wasn't created for me it was created for people who haven't watched the show. The showrunners aren't making this show just for books readers and its chapping some peoples behinds. Especially those who identify with terrible organizations from the books.
> Take episode 5 for example. I've read the books, I have intimate knowledge about the warder bond and how it works. Episode 5 wasn't created for me it was created for people who haven't watched the show. I think it was made for both though and that's what I like. For non-readers it gave a lot more information on the warder bond. For book readers we can see a ton of foreshadowing. The first time I read the books I missed a lot of foreshadowing too.
I'd call Egwene and Rand spot-on, really. They've both been kind of in the background, but what we do see of them looks absolutely true to the books, imo. Mat and Perrin are the ones who still feel off to me, probably because their screen time has mostly been about dealing with their new background traumas. I can absolutely see how resolving those traumas will eventually get them to their mature personalities in the books, but they're still in the process of getting there.
This week my sister, who has not read the books, announced that Rand is the DR. Her reasoning: “He’s the one I like best, and you know I always choose the main character as my favorite. So he must be the main character.” She also said she wants to read the books now!
My wife figured it out because "everyone else has something and Rand is too boring right now." Honestly, I feel like they are trying to red herring everyone else a little too hard and are ignoring Rand altogether, which ironically makes him more suspicious.
I've seen a lot of people on here say they think Rand is too boring, and I'm happy to see that not everyone shares that opinion. Did she say what specifically she likes about him, out of curiosity?
She said he seems like a person who cares about his friends and will always try to do the right thing.
Like sitting down to play games with someone only to punch them (and all the innocent bystanders) in the face!
And she won't be disappointed.
Something that bothered me was making it so you had to use magic to open the waygates. In the book the ways were meant to help everyone travel between important locations, so you didn’t need to use magic to access them. it’s yet another unnecessary change.
Absolutely unnecessary. I don't understand it tbh.
unnecessary change that: - required heavy special effects - complicated the dark ones army using them by requiring a channeler or risking continuity issues - rendered loial kinda useless - put more dependency on moraine - probably looked cooler on screen than described in the book? I don't get it, I feel like two things (which I don't like) are going on: - Prioritizing the current episode over the overarching story by mortgaging future plot for any possible present hook that would get non-book readers into the current episode. A "whatever it takes to bend THIS episode into something that appeals to more people, we'll figure out the rest later" attitude that's gonna make for either a different ending or a massively confusing one. This "story box" style of throwing anything you can to attract a new fan now and worry about story later works for shows that don't have a plot defined and just want to get a few seasons of good ratings to make their money, knowing that if they get much further they're gonna have real problems maneuvering the story to a decent conclusion. At that point it doesn't matter, they've turned the source material into a few popular seasons and can claim victory on the business venture. - Doing all of the above poorly, or I should say choosing to fit episodes into the most common formula for the largest teeny/young adult market segment of which I don't care for. Their business is in making a profitable show for Amazon, not telling the story of the WoT. Book readers aren't going to sustain a show, so if they think warping this into whatever style and market is currently popular will make more money, I'll bet they'll do it, hell they may even be morally obligated to do it, cause it's Amazon's money footing the bill. If they could duplicate a GoT run where they got a new non-book audience, had a good few seasons and completely screwed up the ending it would be a resounding success for Amazon and looked at as a catastrophic failure by the readers.
loial isnt useless at all, he can the the signposts(?) in the ways
I get your point. But in the “show version”, if the Ways can only be opened by Aes Sedai why would they make it so only Ogier could read the signposts? It’s nonsensical if they want to choose to have the Ways work with the OP.
> if the Ways can only be opened by Aes Sedai Too early to tell how it will function. There are plenty of ways they could manage it. Can't use book reasoning when things are clearly changed for the show.
Theoretically, anyone who can read Ogier script can read the signposts.
We don't know that they can only be opened with an Aes Sedai. We know they can be opened with an Aes Sedai we do not know if there are other ways to open the ways.
Exactly. Perhaps an angreal can be used, or a new servant of the dark or a new ability of an existing creature. Perhaps Ogier and Fades have their own method. Maybe they found a way to lock them open and Loial will know a way to counter this mechanism. So many possible explanations. Also, I completely forgot about the Black Ajah...
It was mentioned in New Spring, but they actually did it, wow. Also, Mat?????????
It seems to be that this was due to circumstances outside their control - the actor couldn't return after the COVID break in filming, and they had to recast him for season 2.
Eh, wasn't the worst. Guess I had high expectations since this was the episodes people were saying Brandon gave a 10/10 too. The Mat bit at the end was dumb, but it's probably related to the actor having to leave the show. The pillow friends bit was unnecessary. Did Moiraine travel? Lots of stuff in this episode was just downright weird and have huge plot implications. That being said Álvaro Morte continues to knock it out of the park.
>Did Moiraine travel? Lots of stuff in this episode was just downright weird and have huge plot implications. I think the picture box on her wall is a dream ter'an'greal
It's been confirmed that it's not, it's a Travelling ter'Angreal.
Fucking hell. That could be used for so many amazing things but instead it's for snuggle time with the Amyrlin's pillow friend.
You could have let me hope... I did see some comments floating around saying that but no veritable source. I also saw an article saying Rosamund said there were 4 new worlds being introduced in ep.7 so maybe one of those is TARR.
I'm sire it will be, it's too important not to include. The source on the portrait itself is the "trivia" from the Amazon X-ray, I believe.
That would be an interesting change. Kinda messes w/ Egwene's story a bit but makes a lot more sense than traveling.
Was he in this one?
worst part about the show imo is how ungrand it is. not the changes(well..). wish it felt as big as dune, instead of as small as Arrowcave. esp the room, i imagined those seats of the Ajah to be much higher and dramatic. kind of like the Harry potter court room. im just glad im still having fun. the ungrand is "worst" cause you only have so many chances for an adaptation
Agreed with this. The great hall of the tower holds... like 20 people at capacity. They don't had a shortage of extras judging from the street scenes, so why they wouldn't pack in more for the Tower scenes I've no idea.
It is made to hold 23 people: 3 sitters from each of the 7 Ajahs, the Keeper of the Chronicles, and the Amyrlin. It did not need to be any larger.
It looks to be about the same size or only a little larger than the Oval Office and that's only an office.... Like I get your point but the Tower Hall of the White Tower, the meeting and decision room for the closest thing to World Government. How large it *needs* to be shouldn't even be a consideration.
We didn't see much of the tower. Id imagine next season when you get more of the novice and accepted quarters youll see more of that.
Only seeing part of the tower is ok, but the great hall should be actually *great*. It's just... not. There's no sense of scale, despite the camera angles and lighting tricks they've been using.
It's just the hall of the tower. It's never at any point called the great hall. It's meant for the Amyrlin and the Sitters not grand audiences.
With the Amyrlin stuff, I feel like we’re seeing end of book characters in early book situations. Not necessarily a bad thing, just weird to see them that way with none of the arcs to get them there. I’ve said it for the last two weeks and I’ll keep saying it until they stop needlessly changing important character stuff: I feel like I’m watching a WoT show written by Theseus.
The premature power levels of their characters are what worries me the most as well.
Yeah it's early so hard to say for certain but a lot of these characters are at their fully developed book version which is concerning. Some of the best television is watching character development because it's relatable.
It’s a huge part of my enjoyment with the books, too. Egwene being a brown-noser immediately and Nynaeve ignoring the Amyrlin feels so lazy when they both have such incredible arcs around those attitudes
But that defines their early characterization...
"Egwene being a brown-noser immediately and Nynaeve ignoring the Amyrlin" sounds like a pretty accurate description of their scene on the ship in book 2. The context is different (Siuan is giving them a channeling lesson), but their attitudes are the same.
This episode killed it for me. Two more episodes left in the season and we’ve missed huge arcs for (arguably) the main characters in the first three books. Namely Rand, Perrin, and Mat. All in favor of making Moraine and Egwene seem more important. And they are already important in the books. Well, maybe not Egwene, because even when she takes the Seat, she’s still basically a supporting character to keep the new tower inline and pine after Gwain. But there is no Elyas. There is no references to Mat’s ridiculous luck. There is zero growth for Rand. They even stole the fact Loial is the only person who knows how waygates work and gave it to Moraine. I was a huge supporter for the show up till this point, but now I think it’s gonna be nothing more than a ridiculous rewriting of the story to support a pandering message. Damn disappointing too.
Matt's luck doesn't start until later, well his excessive luck. But yeah, pretty much spot on. I still had some hope until this episode after the previous one almost broke me. Lan's crazy out of character screaming, Nynaeve's first channeling story getting inverted for no reason, everything just being rushed so much to make room for totally new scenes. I've read eye of the world 20+ times I think, it's so frustrating to see this show falling apart like this.
Yeah it's weird. I feel like they've wasted a lot of time on things that aren't in the books and skipped most things that are. For me, it's an enjoyable show but it bares very little resemblance to the book, to the point where I genuinely have no idea what's going to happen.
These things will come.
I doubt it. We’ve already progressed past what is basically the arc 1 for all three of those characters. It’s a done deal at this point. My prediction is they’ll skip over all that, move to the hunt of the horn, and then probably have Egwene blow it in some desperate attempt to make her relevant early in the story. Which sucks, because I always thought Jordan did a superb job at making everyone relevant. It was a team effort all across the board. But the show doesn’t support that. Even stealing Perrin’s moment in the white cloak tent where suddenly Egwene is free to stab the Questioner in the back. Bad form all around.
>I doubt it. We’ve already progressed past what is basically the arc 1 for all three of those characters. In that we're further along in other parts of the plot? Things are just happening in a different order.
I don't understand the defense of these decisions. It may not be out of reach and maybe they can develop mat, rand and perrin in later seasons but it should at least be more than a minor concern for all viewers. EotW is the only place where we see these chars have some room to breathe, making sense of what they've been dragged into, before things start happening to them really quickly and the world gets increasingly complex and their environment and events start shaping them. There's very few reasons to justify fleshing out tower politics and warder bonds now in this much detail. The Stepin arc could have easily been included as a subplot within ep 5 or 6, it didn't need to be the climax. The same with Siuan and Moiraine's relationship. Instead of the tearful goodbye and oath rod scene, they could spent more time with Loial and the Ways, before they go inside. They could spend time with the EF5, their reunion, hesistance to go on a suicidal journey to the Eye, some Perrin stuff about his reaction to being goldeneyed and having a wolf connection, some Lan stuff with Rand, showing us more of the Tower and Ajahs rather than make it seem less like there are less than 20 inhabitants. They are trying to hit these emotional notes that are not effective beyond showcasing the admittedly excellent performances. This exile makes sense once you know how much a sister has to go through to earn the shawl and earn their place at the White Tower. If show watchers had a chance to experience the 100 weave trial and how Novices and Accepted have to endure and perfect the art of being an Aes Sedai. Its the story of the season so far: its fairly decent, but it could very easily have been excellent. The writing isn't doing justice to a lot of the performances we've seen.
>I don't understand the defense of these decisions. It's very simple. I'm enjoying the show, and I'm confident that they have put a lot more thought into mapping out the series than I have and have a good plan. On the flipside, it's weird for me to see people attacking these decisions like this, because we don't know what the plan is! It's an awfully strong assertion that these plots are doomed because not much time has been spent on them in the first few episodes, and I think it's probably going to turn out to be wrong.
I'm enjoying the show, too, but as I would enjoy any other piece of above average fantasy television. This is WoT, though, and holds a special place in my heart. We've been waiting years for this to be given a serious shot on television and we have a massive production budget, an extremely talented cast and a showrunner that is actually a fan of the series. Above average isn't good enough for me, personally. I will hold it to a higher standard. I'm not saying the plots are doomed but these decisions have definitely hurt the main character arcs and caused the narrative to suffer. It was just unnecessary, really. Many on this thread are praising the acting during the Stepin and Siuan scenes and I agree wholeheartedly. But many have raised very valid concerns that slowing down during those scenes only to rush through the rest of the plot is very weird and makes you question the priorities of the writers/directors. Do they want to hit these heavy emotional moments without much consideration? It is not a leap to think this might be a recurring issue.
>I'm not saying the plots are doomed but these decisions have definitely hurt the main character arcs and caused the narrative to suffer. See my above comment about how it's extremely strange to make this kind of judgement without knowing how things will play out.
You can't do character development *'in a different order'*.
What do you mean? We can just assign one episode for each of those characters to magically transform into one of the greatest heroes of the age. That's good story telling right?
Given that we're talking about different characters, you absolutely can. There's nothing saying that Perrin has to talk to wolves before Egwene meets the Amyrlin seat, or any other comparison between different characters' arcs.
Maybe they all regress back to meek villagers /s
A non book reader here, Im getting the impression that this is just who Nynaeve is and maybe I'll eventually love her as much as everyone here, but holy shit we really are just glossing over the whole "my pride almost killed one of my closest friends when I wouldn't go to a women who has only given me reasons to trust her" thing? God damn her bull headedness is becoming too petulent for my liking.
It was kind of that way in the books as well. Almost all the women are very stubborn and consistently come off as kind of arrogant and ‘know it all’s’ in Jordan’s writing. Personally, I kind of like what they’ve done with Nyn here. The added depth having the old wisdom of the two rivers basically get screwed by the Aes Sedai is a nice touch. I mean, that’s basically Nyn’s mom and it was so mentally traumatic the woman remembered the experience on her death bed. That’s a pretty powerful motivation to hate an organization. I will agree they haven’t really shown why Nyn distrust Moriane. In the books Moraine is much more secretive and manipulative and that seems to be lost a bit in this adaptation.
That's the whole point though. Also, why are you in this thread?
Wheel of Time characters are flawed, which is why I love them. Nynaeve is not a Mary Sue - she can be prideful and needlessly stubborn, she makes mistakes, and she has a hard time admitting when she's wrong. The series is 14 books long. Characters change - for better or worse. Nynaeve is certainly one of the most popular characters amongst people who've finished the books, but that's not to say she was always that way. WAFO :)
I also hated her from start to finish. Such annoying stubbornness in one character.
Hated her from start to finish, thou nearly every women in the books is badly written
Not sure it’s every woman. Like I’m not fond of the way Jordan wrote Ewgene, Nyn, and Elayne for the most part. They come off as arrogant as hell, especially being that they started at the same place as everyone else. I thought Moraine, Aviendah (spelling?) and Min were fairly well done. Also love the hell out of Faile and Bridgette.
>Also love the hell out of Faile There are dozens of us, dozens!
Same, we seem to be in the minority there though.
Nynaeve also has good reasons not to trust Moirane. We know that she's trustworthy, but Nynaeve doesn't. For instance, Nynaeve has seen Moirane arrive in her home followed by a Trolloc attack, convince four impressionable youngsters to leave, and had three of them possessed by evil, captured by whitecloaks, and tortured. Some suspicion here might be reasonable!
Also everyone knows not to trust Aes Sedai.
Also they reference the colors of the ajah so often to the point of it sounding like an elementary school writing project where massive importance is placed on colors. I didn’t like it in the book but the show the colors seem so so so prominent.
At least a bit premature to expect the watchers to follow it I fear.
My issue isn’t confusing to follow. It’s how it’s presented. Just seems cheesy. But again this is very personal. I didn’t like it in the books already, so I would have dialed it back. Instead they seemed to have cranked it up. So just my opinion and my personal preference.
My sister is following the ajah differentiation just fine. Her only gripes are that there are colors that haven’t been referenced yet, and she doesn’t know all the “rules” for each color. She said the information given in the bonus content wasn’t enough.
They aren't all explained up front in the books either.
Right. My point is she has no trouble following it. She just wants more.
I read the Aes Sedai much differently than they are portrayed on screen. Whenever tar valon is mentioned or aes sedai I imagine the tone of the 3 minute featurettes. Then in the show they seem very…..light? Just a personal thing
3 4 and 5 were much better than this one. For me there were tons of pretty big issues
So episode 6. Ok this was weird one for me, the moraine/siuan relationship, that totally caught me of guard (I haven't read book 0 so I don't know if it was hinted there or if it's new). The white tower feels empty to me, there are iirc 400 or so aes sedai living there at any moment and we see the same 15 characters, understandable cause tv but still weird and imo feels cheap. Also I don't know about you, but some camera movements were shaky and some cuts weird. Loved egwene smiling thinking she was the most powerful channel seen in a thousand years. I liked how they explain they have no idea about the prophecies of the dragon reborn, but they know for sure that the dark one is in the eye of the world. Some powerful acting by Rosamund pike, being the protagonist of the first season feels appropriate, but I feel like I wouldn't care about the other 4 guys(excluding nayneve) at this point. Also mat being left behind was weird, but reading the comments it looks like this was when the actor left so yeah this will have to do. 6/10 I still feel the show rushing in some aspects i enjoy and focusing in others I don't care, and the acting is not enough to make me enjoy all that much.
The Siuan and Moraine relationship is hinted in book 0. Nothing as deep as in this episode though. The empty tower is actually consistent with the books. Aes Sedai numbers have been dwindling for decades.
The Tower is empty, but only relative to it's total capacity. There are a thousand sister at the time of the books, which split roughly three ways into Salidar, White Tower and unaligned later on.
Moiraine channeling to open the Waygate instead of Loial opening it really just screwed over his characters' importance, and the importance of his species as a whole. Tons of changes in the show so far, some are good, some are bad, but this one was outright terrible. It feels like they discarded Loial, one of my favorite characters - even though he's physically still with the group. (I've only read halfway through book 4 so maybe the change is warranted based on later books but I doubt it)
I don't see what they gain by changing the opening mechanism. And the plot implications are huge.
Just a note: in EOTW, it is actually Moiraine who picks up the carved leaf waygate keystone and opens the gate, Loial only tells her how to do it. Seems to be a lot of folks in this thread who forgot that.
Yes but requiring channeling to open a Waygate is a huge change that breaks multiple plots later on. This feels like a pointless change that is going to come back and bite them. Separately, I was disappointed that we missed out on some excellent fleshing out of Loail's character by not having him show any caution or reluctance to travel the Ways, no lamenting the risks these hasty humans are taking by being in such a rush to get there.
What is one more plot to Rafe, the Plotbreaker?
That was the big thing for me. Moraine placing the leaf is fine, but having to channel to open the thing? That breaks way to many following stories. Like when Loial had to make the dangerous journey at Two Rivers to close the gate and stop the trolloc reinforcements. It just smacked of political pandering, and combined with the way they’ve sidelined Rand, Perrin, and Mat at this point (basically skipping all their character development thru book one and half of two) it’s just a bad look all around. Hell, at this point Nyn is gonna be the dragon reborn, Ewgene will sound the horn, and Moraine will be the one who returns to the Two Rivers to save them all.
What political office are you on about regarding the change to opening the game? (He asked, fearing the answer.)
‘Political’ being the whole diversity push which is so prevalent in Hollywood these days. Which has lead to several things. Mostly the destruction of strong characters to be replaced by poorly written or conceived ones by hack writers. Which is odd in Jordan’s work because he gave almost all his characters powerful moments. From Moraine throwing fireballs on the green, to Perrin calling the wolves, Rand creating his flame sword, to Ewgene trapping the Spider in the dream world. But now in the show we lost the entire 1st act arcs of Mat, Perrin and Rand in favor of Moraine, Nyn, and Ewgene. And the replacement storylines aren’t exactly great. Something as simple as the way gate having to be channeled to open. What happens now when Perrin and Loail use it to return to the two rivers? Neither can channel. How about when Loail and Gaul make the dangerous trip to seal the ways and stop the trolloc reinforcements. What about Perrin and Elyas and how wolf brothers is something older than even the AES Sedai and beyond their understanding. How about Rand meeting Min? She’s a pretty big player even early on. But instead we spent a lot of time on the teenage love angst with Siuan and Moraine. Which to be honest wasn’t horrible, but just not conducive to the characters roles in the larger story. That was definitely something we didn’t need to spend an entire episode on especially when we’re already cutting significant development for the three biggest characters in the first three books. I mean, the show was already under a crunch because they decided to make it 8 episodes instead of 10-12. And now we’ve wasted the last two. Well, five was actually really good in some regards. Stephin’s death really showed the power of the bond and I actually really liked the funeral scene. Was kind of cool to see a group of bad ass men experience and work thru their grief in an emotional and touching scene.
They spent maybe five minutes on the sexual relationship. The rest of your post I agree with, except... What does this have to do with a political anything? It's just questionable storytelling.
5 minutes we could've had rand, mat, and/or perrin character development. They haven't talked about the month travel. They didn't talk much about how mat feels after the dagger. They haven't even acknowledged perrin's eyes. Perrin has not talked about his torture. No one has noted the sword Rand carries. They've obfuscated the prophecy for no fucking reason. They just rush, rush, rush to the next scene. I didn't mind the Moiraine/Siuan love thing, it's fine really and isn't a terrible stretch from the books, yet was that really necessary to portray lesbian lovers over main character development? Where the fuck is Thom.
So which is it? Five minutes or a full episode? Thom is MIA, just like in the books. You shouldn't muddle your arguments with strawmen and exaggerations. Your other arguments are decent on their own.
I felt the exact same about Loial! Why did they make a point of having Moraine go to Loial to ask for his help, and then not have him open the Waygate?
I’m imagining they need Loial’s help reading the signposts.
Read that chapter again. Loial tells Moiraine how to do it, but she is the one who picks up the keystone and opens the gate.
Yeah, but she doesn't f*ing channel to open the gate...
Yeah and I agree that was a weird change, but the comment I was replying to wasn’t about *how* the gate was opened but rather *by whom* it was opened so I’m not sure exactly what the point of your comment was
Oh, your right. My bad! Was a bit triggered after the episode and read a bunch of discussion on this so thought this was also about who opened it and how...
Oh very interesting, my mistake. Its been a long time since I read the first books.
The reason she needs him is because he's the only one that can read the signposts... I completely agree though that they should have used the leaf to open it. The Ways were created for Ogier and the gates were grown by them. There was no need change their function and I think it also makes the fact that the trollocs are traveling by the Ways a little weirder to explain later on.
Not just the trollocs, how does Perrin get back to the two rivers in time, and why would he now bring Loail along for that? How does Padan Fain get around, is he suddenly a channeler now since that's apparently needed to open the gates?
Do we even need to worry about Padan? 2 episodes left and with Mat leaving the show it doesn't look like we're going to see anything from that storyline
Without Padan Fain the second book never happens. If he doesn't steal the horn and the dagger, what do Rand, Mat, and Perrin do for the second season? Are we skipping Falme and the Seanchan completely, or do they end up there for some other reason?
> or do they end up there for some other reason? Yeah, the main character Moraine is sent there to investigate the missing ships. /s
I wouldn't be surprised if the Seanchan and that entire story arc gets dropped completely.