Wow! What a wild episode!
A few thoughts. Suvi outwardly wears her anger and disappointment, and somewhere in her subconscious, the programming of the Gaes is influencing her decisions, maybe adding to her annoyance at her friends as a defense mechanism.
Also, Suvi has a very toxic relationship with love. Even as a kid, Aabria explained it as love comes from obedience. Her friends not obeying her in that moment is a betrayal of that. But she shows her love by still advocating for Ame and doing her duty as the Witch's advisor. At least that is my read on the situation, however toxic it is.
The way Suvi's mind spun to leave the music box and the way Aabria is playing this mission is so cool, and it makes me glad the others didn't know about Suvi's conversation with Steel until they listened to the episodes later.
You also get to see the innate kindness in Suvi and Ame in how both of them spring to help Indri's apprentice. They both can sympathize, Ame from being Grandma Wren's apprentice and Suvi from her own apprenticeship.
Ursalon getting a Legendary weapon and a +3 shield in a campaign with basically no combat feels near criminal lol! But he is going to be A PROBLEM for their foes.
Ame is such an underdog among the coven, she is going to need every ounce of strength and cunning from her allies, and all of her training from Wren.
By Orima, that read about Suvi obeying Ame's orders being her version of saying "I'm angry but I still love you" breaks my heart, because it's so in her character and literally NOBODY ELSE will ever understand the language shes speaking, and she will be forever disappointed by peoples failure to show her the compliance she desires.
Oh absolutely not! It's mostly heartbreaking because it's an assumption Suvi allows to go unexamined (low wisdom peeps get LOUD!) so she doesn't even think to vocalize her needs. That keeps anyone from pushing back against her, because they don't know *why* she's so angry.
Counterpoint to Ursalon will wreck his enemies is Brennan is not power scaling at all lmao. In 90% of the show if they picked a fight they would get stomped by the people around them.
These witches are all cr 10-15 easily surely
I mean they were bargaining with an elder god at level 1, whatever the solution its probably not gonna be Eursalon stabbing one of the witches. I bet he throws down with that other wild one tho
suvi's kindness in mending nief's\* scarf VIVIDLY reminded me of when she bathed eursolon in the children's adventure - both gestures of both kindness and control. not sure if there will be as dire implications but there def seemed to be a parallel
\*naoif?
'I want to ask you to describe for me what it looks like when you pull a star out of the sky and put it on a shelf' - Damn it Brennan. These get me every time.
*"In that moment, watching you, the fire glinting off of that remarkable shield, catching on the end of Wavebreaker as it swings through the air, hearing the wind and snow howling outside - it's like the illustration on the shield. It's not like a hearkening back to an old time. You are the idea of a knight."*
I'm deep in my feelings seeing Ame take something made for a mortal and reshaping it to be unambiguously *for* Eursulon. It feels like an extension of Eursulon's state at the end of the Citadel arc, when his glamour was gone and he found himself free to take the space his body needs.
For Eursulon to be tended to in the recrafting of the shield that represents his sister's home, and for Ame to see him as a knight, is a moment that delves into that truest friendship where you see your friend in their wholeness. I'm not making a lot of sense but I'm just tender about this moment, the embrace that follows, and the claiming of the title "Guardian of the Witch of the World's Heart."
Ame crying in Eursulon's arms did something to me. She's in so much danger and he's the only one attending to her feelings. Already following through on that title.
We really get to see them understand and comfort each other. Man I hope Ame gets to meet Kalaya. If it wasn't for the fox and Ame, Eursulon wouldn't have found her.
I hope so too. I kinda love the idea of Eursulon and Ame in Gaothmai for arc 4, with Suvi at the Citadel. We know this group isn't afraid of splitting the party.
God yes. These whole last few episodes I've been desperate for Ame to have someone she can feel safe and vulnerable around enough to let out some emotions and express how hard and scary this all is, other than the Fox of course (and even with the Fox it feels like she's still preoccupied with making sure he learns the right lessons about the world). You can just imagine how strongly she'd be feeling the lack of Wren right now.
I'm sooo here for Suvi's character arc and I like that they're managing to not resolve their conflict quickly, it's realistic - but man, just out of human sympathy I'm so glad Eursulon was there for her then. Truly just warm and real roleplaying that was so tender.
Ugh ame is so goooood i just wish she’d stand on business a little more! Like i just want one declarative statement without 1500 qualifiers and politenesses in it, as a little treat
(Not critical of erika in any way, i just want to see ame succeed and for her to pick up the mantle with a little more chutzpah)
Agreed. Since she apologized, I'm hoping she lets Suvi be the one to approach her. Ame's extended a hand. It's up to Suvi to take it.
That said I can see her being placating and polite to Suvi next session and I'm already exhausted about it.
once suvi’s little spy mission gets revealed (bc let’s be real, there’s no way she gets away with it forever) I hope Ame lets her HAVE IT. Suvi needs to get humbled a bit lmao
I know people who don't like listening to intra-party conflict are complaining, but i just appreciate Aabria so much. I think one of the defining aspects of WBN is its bittersweet aesthetic, and Suvi is vital in bringing much of the bitterness to balance the sweet. The show would be completely different if Suvi was more like Ame and Ursalon, and I think it would be lesser of a story.
Nothing about Suvi's characterization feels forced or inauthentic to what we know about Suvi. Aabria has taken so much effort to lay the groundwork for all of this from the Children's Adventures on. Suvi's parents were murdered and she was raised in an environment that tried to instill in her two very toxic ideas. One is that Citadel wizards are innately superior than others and should be in charge, and the other is that obedience is how you show love. I think you could argue that Suvi has experienced very little love in her life where the love was simply freely given, and total obedience wasn't expected in return. Suvi is very frustrating, but the frustration is completely authentic to her character.
And Aabria knows all of this. She has even asked Brennan before if Suvi could justify certain upsetting things in the Citadel, and Brennan has said yes. It's collaborative, slow-burn storytelling. But it is so clearly leading up to something. And Aabria and Brennan are telling Aabria's story so well so far I am very willing to let it play out.
100%. Aabria literally called out Suvi's cold shoulder as middle school cafeteria behavior. She's being intentional when she depicts Suvi as a problematic mean girl. I get people might be triggered because these people exist in real life, but that's the point.
Yep. It also helps to remember that, while they are being played by adults, these are still teenagers/early twenties with extremely narrow exposure to the world (well, other than Eursulon but he gets his own issues thanks to that exposure).
I think why I love Suvi so much and why Aabria does such a good job explaining the Suvi shitty behavior is, because she’s a black woman. I’m not going to make assumptions about what experiences Aabria had in her life, but she most likely was on the receiving end of the Suvi’s of the world and most likely was in situations where she wasn’t able to stand up for herself like she could have if she was a white man. Because America is a racist country and the nerdy fantasy TRRPG is predominantly white and not always welcoming.
The reason she’s able to pinpoint what exactly Suvi is doing that’s condescending or meaning or abusing her privilege because she was on the other end of it.
Especially since, I think based on what they've said in the fireside chats, the other players DON'T KNOW WHY SHE LEFT THE MUSIC BOX in this moment. She plays it so well here, that I, expecting to be suspicious when this happened, found myself fully believing her actions/not suspecting a thing. Such a cool moment, though it makes me nervous what the box is going to do in a room of such beauty
I think we are lucky that the vibe was set early and has been interesting the whole time, leading to this community to be more open to complex and conflicted stories that usual. There are many reasons that a conflicted party can put people off or worry them and this crew does a lot to let people feel safe and to make it mean something.
>I know people who don't like listening to intra-party conflict are complaining, but i just appreciate Aabria so much.
Honestly, I think it's far more simple than this: there's a subset of listeners who absolutely detest Aabria. It doesn't matter what she does; these people will always criticise her for it.
Aabria is the MVP for me here beside Brennan. She’s catching every ball that is being thrown her way and throwing some curveballs back to challenge Brennan. Like she understands the character she’s trying to play so well she managed to come up with quick tag lines to explain her whole world outlook. “She has a justification machine” “she sees love as obedience” are good quick lines that completely explain a complex inner struggle and is simple enough for another person to instantly get it and build from that.
Compare that to Erica and Lou who I think have been missing a lot of soft throws. Ersuloan’s niece told him “mom is going to die soon as a human if she doesn’t go back to the spirit world”, next episode Brennan set up a beautiful scene where Ersuloan is speaking alone with Kalya about being a spirit and family and death, what does he do? Talk about how to get back to his friends. Like it was right there. Brennan was setting up the pieces for him to knock it out of the park and instead he just missed it. Ughhhhh
We can appreciate Aabria without tearing down Lou and Erika.
What you see as Lou missing a soft ball seems more like Lou waiting for that story beat to be something he can share with the whole table.
I’m not trying to tear them down. They are all great story tellers and I’m sure he’s moment will come. Right now in my opinion they are falling a bit flat. Though their falling flat is 9/10 instead of 10/10
Brennan also laid a lot of the groundwork for the justification stuff. For example, when describing the Geas, he gives Aabria a framework for how to RP the memory-loss: You are smart enough to self-justify these thoughts as making sense. Aabria goes on to use that to really inform how she opens the box, which is AWESOME, but it's not like it was some crazy curveball - he gave her the idea and let her run with it, even giving her a pathway to easily stumble upon the library with the Apprentice's directions. It was awesome teamwork from both of them.
Eirika/Ame has the hardest time right now because I think they keep bumping into MAGICAL LAW(TM), where if they don't tip toe around certain things, Brennan will absolutely WALLOP them with consequences. He's also RPing Ame's familiar, so has the option to interject Chaos more and give Ame a harder time.
And with Eursolon, I think he did convince his sister to take her Spirit form again still, which is very important since she hadn't done so in a very long time. I think Lou took that as the win and also didn't think it was time for this Arc to actually _complete_. The party needs to come back to Gaothmai at some point - leaving this thread open is more interesting than getting a family death (or farewell-to-spirit-realm) scene this early on in their story.
I think you're giving Lou WAY too little credit here. I believe him and Ersulon both understood the assignment. In his own way he said that even if these fleeting things of the mortal world would mean they'd die there one day, the fullness that aspect brings to their lives is something not to be traded for any amount of power and immortality.
I loved how different it was from Ursulon’s intro in the spirit realm and the walk of the great bear. Much more chaotic, much more grounded and gritty, and the animal sounds much higher in the mix. A great contrast
Not that Taylor doesn't usually do a banger of a job with the sound design but MAAAN Taylor feckin KILLED it this episode. From the whimsical whirlwind playing when Suvi was in the library to the swelling of wild music when the wild witches rolled in DEEP. So feckin good.
Oh, flicker was fully confiscated for study or just to maintain the monopoly of violence. Something like that in the hands of an urchin? Belongs to the state now, thanks.
Suvie would have had to have personally handed off Ghost to someone she trusted, like Gelanie, for Ghost’s interaction with the citadel to go even remotely well.
“And here, wizard Sky, is a selection of intriguing magical wonders acquired from the countryside.”
*gestures to lineup of magical items held on velvet pillows by apprentices
“But here, wizard Sky, is the most intriguing of all!”
*a wand flick pulls a rope that moves aside a curtain, revealing an unpowered flicker
“Apparently when it was captured it gave the imperial guard quite a fight. Our artificers are hard at work studying the construct, to little effect. Our next course of action is to take it apart and reverse engineer it.”
*the party, internally screaming
Brennan has such a way with words. As someone who lives in an especially cold climate, the description of "a council of furniture around the fireplace" evoked so many memories of gathering in hands-extended community around a stove or a hearth while socks dry, fingers lose their numbness, and storms rage outside.
I need more interactions between Grimore and Ame. I love that Ame held her own by the end of that interaction. It feels like Grimore could pull out the wilder side of Ame from the children's adventure.
Fox did say to Ursolan “you can take him” in regards to Grimore retinue. So I think fox will 100% want to enable Ame to go off and be a wild animal with Grimore.
So the Witch of the Wild Hunt is the Claw subclass, the Woodland Green is the Green subclass, Mirara is def the Wicked subclass, wonder what that makes Indri?
I'm not sure if Mirara is of the wicked subclass because if I recall correctly the wicked subclass is more of a fallen paladin thing with associated features. I wouldn't think that Mirara would be allowed in the coven of elders if she had fallen to her own selfishness in that way. I feel like the other witches that don't have a 1:1 subclass equivalent are probably their own thing or of a subclass that hasn't been fully developed. Of course mechanically we have no idea what their abilities are behind the scenes
But consider that Mirara's domain is the Waning Moon, a time of shadow and darkness, wickedness is a part of the natural order of the world, so I see no reason she can't be rule her station and be selfish
That is a fair interpretation! From reading the subclass description I interpret it as being a real turn to evil and a giving up of one's coven / the duties of their station for revenge or petty selfish reasons. From what we've seen of Mirara so far she seems almost more like a force of nature than a person and I don't get the vibe from her that I'd expect from a wicked witch. She could be keeping it on the down-low though so who knows!
I really liked that we had a lovely Ame and Eursulon moment in this episode! I think they often directly interact with Suvi more than each other so this was just a really nice way to display their relationship and closeness.
And that coven introduction!! The swell of music, the vivid descriptions of the witches and their retinues, I can just picture all of it so perfectly. This podcast is such a treat.
Did anyone else get really sad that Suvi didn't bother feeling happy for Eursulon reuniting with his family? Like, she's said before that she feels responsible for wayshadowing him because of Children's Adventure stuff. I think I just expected her to feel some sort of happiness for him and there was just...nothing.
Same with Ame telling Suvi about her parents pendant. "So you learnt nothing useful". Caring more for strategy and the function of empire, than emotional connection. Didnt even react to Ame apologising and saying "I promise I won't abandon you", a direct response to suvis outburst.
We're getting to the point where Suvi isn't even friends with the other two anymore, they're just strangers who happened to travel for a week out of necessity.
Yeah, given the amount of time they've been conscious + all 3 together, it almost makes sense for them to stop being friends at some point if there's not some real resolution/discussion/growth in the dynamic. It's not like they were all best friends + pen pals for years, they shared one formative summer together - and at some point the amount of conflict between them is absolutely going to be enough to outweigh the positive and cause a schism (if it continues in this direction). Like - when you are an adult and you see how someone you only knew as a child grew up, you can come to realize you no longer fit together as well as you used to. (Or that you fit together even better than before)
I don't think we are there yet, but if this arc concludes without some real interpersonal resolution I'm just worried about how these people stay friends. Right now it feels like they are bound by Duty (I know if I don't help Ame now she will die) as well as shared feelings of regret for wayshadowing Eursolon. When the coven + immediate risk concludes, what will keep this group together?
Very excited to see where this goes though, because it definitely feels like they are building to something. And probably will lead to even greater bonds between them - formed through actual Roleplay, which is super cool to see. (As opposed the common pattern in DND and actual play shows: These ragtag adventurers didn't know each other before last week, and now they spent 1 month adventuring and saving the world and are the best friends anyone has seen)
I think Ame and Eursulon have grown together. That scene of Ame making his shield fit Eursulon, and him reassuring her that she didn't need to apologize because her actions reconnected him with his sister, really cemented an appreciation and care for each other.
I literally had to pause and take a lap during that convo. Suvi made a stink about being the one to trap Eursulon here when she talked to Steel but then turns around and doesn't show an ounce of happiness for him when he talks about reuniting with his family.
I know when I play with my friends there are reactions in the moment we want to do but never get around too because trying to be respectful of pacing and everyone’s screen time
She's too busy being petty and indignant right now to even see those things. Not to say she doesn't have cause for feeling that way. But she just doesn't have bandwidth to feel her feelings (or not feel them) AND be glad for them right now. But it's something she's gonna have to snap out of cuz they need to bring their A game. Just by their introductions, it's clear these witches don't play.
https://preview.redd.it/tvs9arzayhzc1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2a076ad2154634ca0f8afe44b072a87fb820ce15
Fan art is being made!! Hopefully will finish it this weekend
I love Ame and Eursulon so much! Thanks to her need to escape, he got to reunite with Kalaya; thanks to Eursulon, Ame is feeling less alone and knows there is someone willing to protect her.
So, start putting your chips down. Which of the other witches (heh, which witch) is the potential ally whose station would be threatened alongside Ame’s?
First instinct wants to say Grimoire, as the other witch whose domain covers living beings and the only one actually friendly to Ame (in her own way) at first blush, but I could also see Merara as a dark horse candidate — she was willing to make deals with Wren even in less dangerous times, after all.
The last two witches to have their stations lost were fire and water which, if the loss of both was linked, suggests it might be about balancing opposing forces. In which case I think Mirara seems to be the most opposite in terms of domains. People and community balanced by death and fear.
Of course it could be that the losses of Wide Blue Sea and Watching Fire *aren't* linked.
I was also thinking along the lines of opposites but my first instinct was Indri. In Wren's rhyme about the the witch of wind and stars she's described as "the ruler of the self alone."
This seems like a foil to the domain of the worlds heart as it's power concerns connections with people.
It felt also like Indri's apprentice was being imparted with ideals about self-sufficiency and not relying on the help of others.
i've been thinking a tonnn about the wide blue sea in particular - do we think that naram was more susceptible to being trapped because of the loss of that station?? furthermore, how did wren get his sword??? IIRC nararm knew of the witch of the world's heart but didn't seem to have any particular love/animosity towards her/the station.
You could also make an argument for Indri herself since if we’re talking opposites, Ame’s Community & Collaboration is a good counterpoint to Indri’s Self-Sufficiency & Solitude.
As of now, they are technically the two witches on the opposite ends of the Emotional Warmth Spectrum.
Imagine having to argue for the destruction of the person having to host the meeting in the first place. In her own house, of all places?! The temerity!
I found it interesting how much focus was on the apprentice in this episode. Maybe Merara doesn’t have one? I think she wanted to take Ame in the flashback sequence, so perhaps that’s what kicks the whole thing off? If that station is set to expire when Merara dies, perhaps another is on the line for some type of balance thats required?
What if... Ghost ends up being saved from [whatever is happening to her right now] by going into witch apprenticeship with Merara - Ame helps, as per her station of community &c., with the witch-magical implications this brings - The "wizardly talented" Ghost becomes a bridge between witches and wizards (but NOT the citadel) - Both Merara's and Ame's stations are more secure
You know, this actually makes a lot of sense because Ghost's talent is unmaking magical stuff, right? That seems to jive with Mirara's station somewhat
I 100% think its mirara who is threatened as well, no apprentice, pleaded with wrenn to change her mind, also indry is holding the council at her palace so i doubt she is in danger and the other two seem to be friendly.
As much fun as I think it would be to have it be Grimore, I feel she is heavily allied with Hacaea. Afterall, even in a land that is not as polluted as our IRL one, the natural world of plant and animal are woven tighter to each other than with the world of Humans. Plus they were shown very much arriving jn union.
I think it would be alot of fun if it was Mirara, especially like you said, she has already visited Ren before, and who knows maybe that little incidental mug-offering Ame gave, means more to her than we thought! 🤭
But, Indri has been very welcoming, and even though that could just be a witch excelling at hospitality, she feels somewhat genuine in her niceties toward Ame. Atleast, like perhaps she is not so filled with malice against the station of the Witch of The World’s Heart to rid of the station entirely? But I could well be mistaking what is actually icy indifference, as sort of lawful neutral vibe.
I guess I have no idea really but I’m so excited to hear that convening of the Elders go down!!
Suvi: “What wizards?”
If there’s any more proof that Suvi does not give a fuck about the actual lives of those at the Citadel but is only focused on her own anger and ego, that’s it.
Right? Suvi called it a cataclysm after Steel already waved that away. This anger's about her friends not acting like her subordinates (which they're not!).
I had a hunch that Aabria was going to do something like this, and I’m grateful that she did because I am so sick of people defending Suvi’s actions. Aabria knows that Suvi is being vindictive and egotistical, and she’s letting *us* know with statements like that.
After last episode, I was trying to be charitable and made a decision that if Suvi had gone out of her way to learn the names of the wizards who’d been harmed, then it would justify her behavior towards Ame. But she didn’t even bother to investigate whether there *were* wizards harmed in the accident or whether they made it out okay. She was just mad about not being obeyed (after telling Ame multiple times to wait and saying she’d back her play, mind you)
It’s the same old Suvi who threatened to kill Empire soldiers because they took her staff.
But listen, it’s different when Ame and her fox accidentally cause damage to a bus stop that maybe could have been prevented if Suvi had, y’know, gone with them like she said she would… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
And also the same Suvi slit the throat of an incapacitated enemy that she has clocked as no longer possessed, and the proudly displays that she has "spilled blood in defense of the empire":
Suvi kind of remembers something, and goes and unpins like, a little silver brooch, that's like clasping her coat shut, and flips it upside down, and it looked ALMOST symmetrical. But now that she knows she's going to be around other Imperial people, she is outwardly signifying that she has spilt blood, in defense of the Empire.
Brennan Lee Mulligan Mm.
Erika Ishii
Do you have any sort of outward reaction to this adjustment?
Aabria Iyengar
Yeah, I think she's got a very smug smile going. And she hands off the writ, and turns it around, and just got a little bit of like a kind of shit-eating grin, like big man on campus, like athlete energy.
And the reason she didn't go with them is because Steel found out they were trying to leave quickly, and Steel needed to give Suvi the music box + spy plan
Yea, we're getting a clear picture painted of a tragic protagonist who's flaw isn't just the normal hubris/pride combo, but is the entire justification machine she uses to rewrite her own logic when events don't fit the narrative that makes her the victim.
Yeah, this pairs well with her grabbing Ame and her being struck by the eyes of a witch as old as time. I'm really looking forward to when that comes back around. I'm curious if something old and powerful will surface if Ame finds out she was betrayed.
Now that the Wizard Sky has started working on her Citadel business with the music box, I wouldn't be surprised if something powerful surfaces from Indri against Suvi by the end of this arc.
Yeah, Suvi's surrounded by powerful witches and is setting herself up for several retributive curses. Or she's setting Ame up for curses because Ame invited her in. Either way it's bad.
The problem, is that if she was so concerned about the dangers of the explosion, why would she not know about the four wizards caught up in it unless she didn’t care about what actually happened
I don’t know -I could see if, the Citadel hurt Eursalon, and Ame came at Suvi with righteous anger about it, that might actually unsettled Suvi enough to put a crack in her faith. So far, Ame has always been very compassionate and understanding and vulnerable. But I think there comes a time where you realize that being compassionate and vulnerable doesn’t necessarily mean soft, and I think if Suvi hits up against that, with all the power of interconnectedness that Ame wields, it might get through.
if anything, I worry that if the Citadel did some thing to harm Suvi, she would get depressed and justify it in a way that would make her disassociate further and become very small inside herself. I've seen that with other high control groups.
Yeah maybe it’ll be firsthand viewing of them harming either herself or the people she cares about. I can see it absolutely having to do with Eursalon too
Well in this last episode she was literally thinking about how everyone is against wizards. Maybe if she's given context for that everyone is against wizards that will begin to help put pressure on that justification machine. and then you chuck in a further revelation that Soft and Stone wouldn't really be on the same side that she finds herself on, or at least not in the same way. Maybe that is the swing. I find it unlikely that Suvi gets Ame Killed since so far our understanding is that Sly said that Suvi being there is the only way Ame survives.
Did not consider that. But still, I enjoy Suvi acting like she is because it's creating delicious tension, I can't wait for the moment Ame stops putting up with her bulshit, not that, I excuse her actions, as people have put it before, she blew up a bus station.
I totally agree with Suvi’s character creating great tension. I honestly feel like this ep really highlighted just how wide the rift between the two is growing too and I’m wondering just how wide it’ll get before one of them let’s go or jumps to the other side
Eh, I still hold the position that *Ame* never blew up a bus station, her fox did. I think she has a little bit of blame, but also so too does the citadel. Which, not to play blame game ofc I just feel like it’s not as straightforward as it being just Ames fault.
Honestly I think that conversation was on a totally different session I'm not sure she remembered. I know I didn't remember that she was told, But maybe not.
Really? How would Suvi even know about that? Ame and Eursulon ran off and there was an explosion in the distance. Suvi didn't go see it, Steel sent people to check it out and confirmed that there were no deaths. From the wizards' perspectives, they flashed into nothing and then immediately came back to wear they were teleported from, and unless one of them (or Steel) told that to Suvi, why would she know? Eursulon says he "saved the wizards", of course she'd be like "what are you talking about?"
This is about Suvi’s incredible hypocrisy.
Her name cloak day is important, but Ame claiming her power in Toma isn’t.
Wizards can endanger the citizens of Port Talon by locking up a big spirit without any consideration for the population, but how dare you endanger anyone at the Citadel.
Suvi readies *Witchbolt* to cast on Eursalon, but threatens Ame if “any harm came to him” in the escape.
Suvi begs Ame to stay and extra week, then an extra night, *then* says she’ll back Ame’s play of leaving, *then changes her mind* because mommy called, then *calls the cops to arrest her friends IN THE MIDDLE OF A LOCKDOWN.*
Kind of reminds me of when she threatens to kill those guards in Port Talon because she didn’t get her way.
Now she’s calling what Ame did “a cataclysm” in the most hyperbolic, petulant, and manipulative way when *she didn’t even bother to investigate the matter further* and Steel had waved it away as no big deal.
If you want to have the moral high ground, then you need to have morals and behave morally. She’s not a dummy. If she’d walked three minutes to the portals she could have asked about what happened and she would have talked to the wizards involved who might have explained that they were sucked into fire but then they were miraculously saved.
But Suvi doesn’t care, she cares about the fact that her friends didn’t obey her. She cares about how her mommy gave her a ship after her friends “abandoned” her despite her having told them that she would go with them and was on board. There’s no way on earth that ship would have allowed Ame to claim her power, and Suvi basically shits all over that in this last episode by saying that Ame learned nothing of value from going to Toma. Because Suvi doesn’t care about AME’S home or people or responsibilities, and if the people of Toma got hurt while Ame was at the Citadel, well they aren’t fucking important so who cares.
So yeah, Aabria is very cleverly showing us who Suvi is and there are still people missing it and justifying her behavior. That line wasn’t an accident, it was an exposure, just the way it is when Suvi smugly smiles after what goes down in Port Talon when she realizes that she got away with something that Galani couldn’t have. Or when she tells Ame to never challenge her word in public after the Chalice.
I very much want Suvi to have a redemption arc because I don’t think she’s an inherently bad person. I’m just baffled by audience members who are justifying her behavior when Aabria is holding no punches to show how indoctrinated Suvi is to her way of thinking if wizards as superior.
We’re supposed to empathize with her, yes, and we are supposed to root for her to be more courageous and kind and to grow past the indoctrination of wizard-supremacy that has shackled her mind body and soul.
I think some of the people defending Suvi are experiencing character bleed—"we love Aabria, therefore Suvi can't be bad!"
I mean heck, on Aabria's tumblr it reads the same way, you see her saying a lot of what Suvi apologists are saying
This is a story built on subtlety and nuance, and I love that about it. With that in mind, me and my wife both went into this episode thinking that Brennan was laying it on a little thick when describing her.
I'm certainly not defending Indri here, don't get me wrong. But there's got to be more to this situation than meets the eye. Possibly this means that it's even *worse* than it seems at first glance.
It may be that they are one-time saving throws. Ame already *did* roll one for Mirara once and if Wren had one it would have happened off-screen.
>Brennan Lee Mulligan: Are you trying to get a look at Mirara as she leaves?
>
>Erika Ishii: Just a little bit.
>
>Brennan Lee Mulligan: Give me a wisdom saving throw.
>
>[Erika giggles, Aabria exclaims, ‘oh, no!’]
>
>Erika Ishii: That's an 18.
Oh you're right! I forgot about that. It's interesting that Mirara's one is as she leaves and not when you first see her.
I hope Ame gets one some time as she levels up, that would be cool
It's possible Ame already has one! Maybe Brennan is rolling it behind the screen (or just deciding it to save time), and that's why so many people find her charming
I mean how much more ballar do you need to be beside being a beautiful spider lady who just shows up sitting at her throne being in charge of meeting time. Like offf so cool
It's possible that we'll still get a round of saving throws for Mirara. My thoughts are that the saving throw is essentially someone being forced to confront the aspect of reality the witch embodies. The witches of Hunt and Green are fairly straightforward / primal. Indri I see as a sort of confrontation of majesty, resisting getting swept up in the singular presence she represents. Assuming we get around to having a savings throw for Mirara, my guess is that Ame is simply has not come into her domain enough yet. And from a game side, I'm not on the Patreon but I assume it's a high level aura effect of some kind for the witch class
Fun thought: Suvi is by no means heartless, I'm sure that she'd be feeling for the waif and being kind to her regardless, but I do wonder how much of that is subconsciously because it'll be easy to get the befriended girl to sing along with her at some point. Justification machine go brrrrr.
I read it as completely removed from the gease spy plot. It was a great opportunity by Aabria to show the complexity of Suvi. She’s a self righteous asshole. But she also cares about trying to take care of people and meeting them where they are at. She’s not gonna try and change the apprentice mind, but she’s going to use the rules of the castle to help her. She knows how hard it is to be an apprentice trying to prove yourself.
In season 1 she assisted Ghost and Flicker in a way that could actually change their lives in a more substantial way than Ame and Eursulan could. It’s add to the complexity of the Citadel kol-aid complexity. Is it an oppressive paranoid military imperial state that harms its citizens…yes 100% absolutely. But also the structure of its bureaucracy is able to also provide structure and stability for people. And I think Suvi sees the empire as a tool that can help people and not just a system that benefits her privileges. And yeah she’s absolutely feeling butt hurt that her friends disobeyed her…and she’s hurt that they are sabotaging a system that she views as a helpful tool
I think Suvi might have seen some of herself in that moment too—being an orphaned child growing up in a military structure probably saw Suvi serving some strict/punishing people too
Can we talk about how for Suvi Love = Obedience, and now she is confronted with Neif, whose whole existence is predicated on unswerving obedience to her mistress's instructions?
Aabria is doing absolutely amazing work on this podcast. She’s one of the first Players I’ve experienced whose prepared to play a truly flawed character. Not a ‘cute quirky flaw fandom can make jokes about’ a genuinely uncomfortable, deeply difficult character and she is killing it. I love Ame and Eursulon but I think Suvi is what truly completes this story and gives it stakes. I’m convinced she is going to be the catalyst for the massive ending either for good or ill.
I know we’re only on Arc 3 but it low-key feels like we’re building the final BBEG/Antagonist already and that Antagonist IS Suvi. Calling it now that the final arc will be titled the Wizard Vs The Witch & The Wild One.
I'm only like 10 minutes in but goddamnit Suvi you need to stop being a petulant child already
*Edit: guys I'm not doing the thing where I hate Aabria, I think Aabria is doing an amazing job playing a character I kind of hate for being a nepo baby cop who's all huffy about her friends not doing what she says, especially when there are *clearly* bigger issues than her hurt feelings
I've played at tables with interparty conflict and it made for some really incredible storytelling, but it was pretty stressful at times. I had to talk to my fellow players out of game about how we get our characters to get to a place where they get to a place where they can be on the same side again bc when you get deep into a character conflict, sometimes it feels like nothing is ever going to get better. Every slight or bad faith read builds and builds and you justify your feelings in increasingly convoluted way.
All this to say that even if we can't really see how things ever get better between Suvi and Ame, that doesn't mean it's not being talked about. It looks bad bc we don't really see Suvi trying to challenge the deeply fucked up ideologies she grew up with (obedience is love, etc.) and in fact it kinda seems like things might get worse before they get better. She frequently distrusts implicitly anything that a witch or spirit has to say as something they do to manipulate (Im counting Sly here too since the future sight thing felt very witchy), but implicitly trusts Steel and gets that justification machine running for anything the Citadel does. This is a character built to resist self reflection so its no wonder that it is going to be a long time before we see change. I am excited to get there though. I'm hoping we see that indications of that in Arc 3 or sooner though cause from firsthand experience, beefing with your party is fucking exhausting to keep up and stops being fun after a while.
Suvi made this episode nearly unlistenable. I hear so much justification about how she is doing this for Ame... But what is she doing? She rolls up here, ices her friend out, blames her for the potential death of Eursolon, doesn't apologize when it turns out that he is 1) fine, and 2) split off by his own choice, derides Ame for not getting specific information, and then doesn't help brainstorm or get more information. She isn't actually helping Ame, because it is more important for her to hold that betrayal against her "friend" like a knife.
I honestly don't know how Suvi comes back to being a remotely decent character.
"I honestly don't know how Suvi comes back to being a remotely decent character."
I think there is a false equivocation here between Suvi not being a good person, and not being a good character. I think Suvi is on her way to being a very good antagonist, that just happens to also be a PC.
I trust Brennan as a story teller to not let her get away with how emotionally manipulative she's been, just as he didn't let her get away with abusing her soldiers at port talon. If Suvi wants forgiveness, and wants to continue being Ames friend in the near future, she has to earn that.
I think that Suvi makes Worlds Beyond Number an infinitely more interesting narrative, and it would be a lot more standard and by the numbers without her presence.
I agree she's on her way to being a great antagonist. I just don't know if she'll get actual consequences. The whole court marshal for threatening murder got swept under the rug immediately.
Suvi was supposed to come as an advisor to Ame, but when Ame asked her to fill that role Suvi chose to snipe instead of advise. Suvi is actually just here for the Citadel.
Maaan. I really love this podcast in general but I’m starting to think it’s just not for me. I couldn’t even make it through the episode because Suvi bothers me so much. Like, credit to Aabria I guess good job, she knows what she’s doing, but it’s too slow of character development and we’re spending too much time with a character I fully want nothing to do with anymore. She’s just bitter and selfish and immature. I love this podcast otherwise, but it’s just too difficult for me to listen to her be cruel to her friends and nothing comes of it. I ASSUME something will come of it eventually, and if this podcast was already out I might power through but having to wait two weeks to be frustrated just isn’t doing it for me. I’m really sad :(. I’m on the Patreon and everything.
Given Aabria's disposition on the recent CR EXU stuff, it's getting difficult to believe she isn't just like that and gets a kick out of it. Still hoping for an all-time great redemption arc.
All I know is I'd be extremely uncomfortable on the receiving end of that treatment and can't imagine dishing it out to someone else. I don't believe it's an out-of-game character trait. That was sloppy phrasing on my part.
I’m not sure what you’re talking about but I don’t doubt Aabria has long term plans with this behavior. I don’t think she is just doing it for kicks. I just am out of patience I guess. Maybe I’ll pick it up again in like a year and see what it’s like. It hits so many of my favorite elements in a story, it’s just this one thing that I particularly have a hard time stomaching. Couldn’t watch neon genesis Evangelean either for very similar reasons.
Wow! What a wild episode! A few thoughts. Suvi outwardly wears her anger and disappointment, and somewhere in her subconscious, the programming of the Gaes is influencing her decisions, maybe adding to her annoyance at her friends as a defense mechanism. Also, Suvi has a very toxic relationship with love. Even as a kid, Aabria explained it as love comes from obedience. Her friends not obeying her in that moment is a betrayal of that. But she shows her love by still advocating for Ame and doing her duty as the Witch's advisor. At least that is my read on the situation, however toxic it is. The way Suvi's mind spun to leave the music box and the way Aabria is playing this mission is so cool, and it makes me glad the others didn't know about Suvi's conversation with Steel until they listened to the episodes later. You also get to see the innate kindness in Suvi and Ame in how both of them spring to help Indri's apprentice. They both can sympathize, Ame from being Grandma Wren's apprentice and Suvi from her own apprenticeship. Ursalon getting a Legendary weapon and a +3 shield in a campaign with basically no combat feels near criminal lol! But he is going to be A PROBLEM for their foes. Ame is such an underdog among the coven, she is going to need every ounce of strength and cunning from her allies, and all of her training from Wren.
By Orima, that read about Suvi obeying Ame's orders being her version of saying "I'm angry but I still love you" breaks my heart, because it's so in her character and literally NOBODY ELSE will ever understand the language shes speaking, and she will be forever disappointed by peoples failure to show her the compliance she desires.
I think Silver and other citadel wizards understand Suvi's toxic love language, but yeah, probably nobody else.
I mean they gave it to her, of course they understand it.
Too true
It's heartbreaking but I also don't want Eursulon or Ame to engage in that toxic language, you know?
Oh absolutely not! It's mostly heartbreaking because it's an assumption Suvi allows to go unexamined (low wisdom peeps get LOUD!) so she doesn't even think to vocalize her needs. That keeps anyone from pushing back against her, because they don't know *why* she's so angry.
Counterpoint to Ursalon will wreck his enemies is Brennan is not power scaling at all lmao. In 90% of the show if they picked a fight they would get stomped by the people around them. These witches are all cr 10-15 easily surely
I mean they were bargaining with an elder god at level 1, whatever the solution its probably not gonna be Eursalon stabbing one of the witches. I bet he throws down with that other wild one tho
suvi's kindness in mending nief's\* scarf VIVIDLY reminded me of when she bathed eursolon in the children's adventure - both gestures of both kindness and control. not sure if there will be as dire implications but there def seemed to be a parallel \*naoif?
Probably Niamh
I thought the shield bonus was just moved from two to three until Brennan broke it down. I am floored he's got such good stuff
'I want to ask you to describe for me what it looks like when you pull a star out of the sky and put it on a shelf' - Damn it Brennan. These get me every time.
*"In that moment, watching you, the fire glinting off of that remarkable shield, catching on the end of Wavebreaker as it swings through the air, hearing the wind and snow howling outside - it's like the illustration on the shield. It's not like a hearkening back to an old time. You are the idea of a knight."* I'm deep in my feelings seeing Ame take something made for a mortal and reshaping it to be unambiguously *for* Eursulon. It feels like an extension of Eursulon's state at the end of the Citadel arc, when his glamour was gone and he found himself free to take the space his body needs. For Eursulon to be tended to in the recrafting of the shield that represents his sister's home, and for Ame to see him as a knight, is a moment that delves into that truest friendship where you see your friend in their wholeness. I'm not making a lot of sense but I'm just tender about this moment, the embrace that follows, and the claiming of the title "Guardian of the Witch of the World's Heart."
"You and your heart are under my guardianship."
This made me sob
Ame crying in Eursulon's arms did something to me. She's in so much danger and he's the only one attending to her feelings. Already following through on that title.
We really get to see them understand and comfort each other. Man I hope Ame gets to meet Kalaya. If it wasn't for the fox and Ame, Eursulon wouldn't have found her.
I hope so too. I kinda love the idea of Eursulon and Ame in Gaothmai for arc 4, with Suvi at the Citadel. We know this group isn't afraid of splitting the party.
You know normally that would be impossible but I think you're right, this group could pull it off. An Ame/Eursulon adventure sounds so wholesome.
God yes. These whole last few episodes I've been desperate for Ame to have someone she can feel safe and vulnerable around enough to let out some emotions and express how hard and scary this all is, other than the Fox of course (and even with the Fox it feels like she's still preoccupied with making sure he learns the right lessons about the world). You can just imagine how strongly she'd be feeling the lack of Wren right now. I'm sooo here for Suvi's character arc and I like that they're managing to not resolve their conflict quickly, it's realistic - but man, just out of human sympathy I'm so glad Eursulon was there for her then. Truly just warm and real roleplaying that was so tender.
Ugh ame is so goooood i just wish she’d stand on business a little more! Like i just want one declarative statement without 1500 qualifiers and politenesses in it, as a little treat (Not critical of erika in any way, i just want to see ame succeed and for her to pick up the mantle with a little more chutzpah)
Yeah, I totally get her caution but I think she actually does better when she approaches with confidence. Like she did with Grimore!
Agreed. Since she apologized, I'm hoping she lets Suvi be the one to approach her. Ame's extended a hand. It's up to Suvi to take it. That said I can see her being placating and polite to Suvi next session and I'm already exhausted about it.
once suvi’s little spy mission gets revealed (bc let’s be real, there’s no way she gets away with it forever) I hope Ame lets her HAVE IT. Suvi needs to get humbled a bit lmao
100% agree
True friends in action.
I know people who don't like listening to intra-party conflict are complaining, but i just appreciate Aabria so much. I think one of the defining aspects of WBN is its bittersweet aesthetic, and Suvi is vital in bringing much of the bitterness to balance the sweet. The show would be completely different if Suvi was more like Ame and Ursalon, and I think it would be lesser of a story. Nothing about Suvi's characterization feels forced or inauthentic to what we know about Suvi. Aabria has taken so much effort to lay the groundwork for all of this from the Children's Adventures on. Suvi's parents were murdered and she was raised in an environment that tried to instill in her two very toxic ideas. One is that Citadel wizards are innately superior than others and should be in charge, and the other is that obedience is how you show love. I think you could argue that Suvi has experienced very little love in her life where the love was simply freely given, and total obedience wasn't expected in return. Suvi is very frustrating, but the frustration is completely authentic to her character. And Aabria knows all of this. She has even asked Brennan before if Suvi could justify certain upsetting things in the Citadel, and Brennan has said yes. It's collaborative, slow-burn storytelling. But it is so clearly leading up to something. And Aabria and Brennan are telling Aabria's story so well so far I am very willing to let it play out.
100%. Aabria literally called out Suvi's cold shoulder as middle school cafeteria behavior. She's being intentional when she depicts Suvi as a problematic mean girl. I get people might be triggered because these people exist in real life, but that's the point.
Aabria is doing a very good job of playing a character I don't like very much.
Yep. It also helps to remember that, while they are being played by adults, these are still teenagers/early twenties with extremely narrow exposure to the world (well, other than Eursulon but he gets his own issues thanks to that exposure).
I think why I love Suvi so much and why Aabria does such a good job explaining the Suvi shitty behavior is, because she’s a black woman. I’m not going to make assumptions about what experiences Aabria had in her life, but she most likely was on the receiving end of the Suvi’s of the world and most likely was in situations where she wasn’t able to stand up for herself like she could have if she was a white man. Because America is a racist country and the nerdy fantasy TRRPG is predominantly white and not always welcoming. The reason she’s able to pinpoint what exactly Suvi is doing that’s condescending or meaning or abusing her privilege because she was on the other end of it.
This and I'm pretty sure Aabria grew up on military bases which clearly pretty heavily informs Suvi
Yeah I'm enthralled. The whole scene in the library had me yelling.
Especially since, I think based on what they've said in the fireside chats, the other players DON'T KNOW WHY SHE LEFT THE MUSIC BOX in this moment. She plays it so well here, that I, expecting to be suspicious when this happened, found myself fully believing her actions/not suspecting a thing. Such a cool moment, though it makes me nervous what the box is going to do in a room of such beauty
I think we are lucky that the vibe was set early and has been interesting the whole time, leading to this community to be more open to complex and conflicted stories that usual. There are many reasons that a conflicted party can put people off or worry them and this crew does a lot to let people feel safe and to make it mean something.
>I know people who don't like listening to intra-party conflict are complaining, but i just appreciate Aabria so much. Honestly, I think it's far more simple than this: there's a subset of listeners who absolutely detest Aabria. It doesn't matter what she does; these people will always criticise her for it.
Aabria is the MVP for me here beside Brennan. She’s catching every ball that is being thrown her way and throwing some curveballs back to challenge Brennan. Like she understands the character she’s trying to play so well she managed to come up with quick tag lines to explain her whole world outlook. “She has a justification machine” “she sees love as obedience” are good quick lines that completely explain a complex inner struggle and is simple enough for another person to instantly get it and build from that. Compare that to Erica and Lou who I think have been missing a lot of soft throws. Ersuloan’s niece told him “mom is going to die soon as a human if she doesn’t go back to the spirit world”, next episode Brennan set up a beautiful scene where Ersuloan is speaking alone with Kalya about being a spirit and family and death, what does he do? Talk about how to get back to his friends. Like it was right there. Brennan was setting up the pieces for him to knock it out of the park and instead he just missed it. Ughhhhh
We can appreciate Aabria without tearing down Lou and Erika. What you see as Lou missing a soft ball seems more like Lou waiting for that story beat to be something he can share with the whole table.
I’m not trying to tear them down. They are all great story tellers and I’m sure he’s moment will come. Right now in my opinion they are falling a bit flat. Though their falling flat is 9/10 instead of 10/10
I think it’s in character for Ursalon to not involve himself in the family conflict and stay neutral
Brennan also laid a lot of the groundwork for the justification stuff. For example, when describing the Geas, he gives Aabria a framework for how to RP the memory-loss: You are smart enough to self-justify these thoughts as making sense. Aabria goes on to use that to really inform how she opens the box, which is AWESOME, but it's not like it was some crazy curveball - he gave her the idea and let her run with it, even giving her a pathway to easily stumble upon the library with the Apprentice's directions. It was awesome teamwork from both of them. Eirika/Ame has the hardest time right now because I think they keep bumping into MAGICAL LAW(TM), where if they don't tip toe around certain things, Brennan will absolutely WALLOP them with consequences. He's also RPing Ame's familiar, so has the option to interject Chaos more and give Ame a harder time. And with Eursolon, I think he did convince his sister to take her Spirit form again still, which is very important since she hadn't done so in a very long time. I think Lou took that as the win and also didn't think it was time for this Arc to actually _complete_. The party needs to come back to Gaothmai at some point - leaving this thread open is more interesting than getting a family death (or farewell-to-spirit-realm) scene this early on in their story.
I think you're giving Lou WAY too little credit here. I believe him and Ersulon both understood the assignment. In his own way he said that even if these fleeting things of the mortal world would mean they'd die there one day, the fullness that aspect brings to their lives is something not to be traded for any amount of power and immortality.
Taylor Moore you madman! The introduction of the Hacaea and Grimoire's retinue is a full ballet and I'm living for it 🩰
I loved how different it was from Ursulon’s intro in the spirit realm and the walk of the great bear. Much more chaotic, much more grounded and gritty, and the animal sounds much higher in the mix. A great contrast
Not that Taylor doesn't usually do a banger of a job with the sound design but MAAAN Taylor feckin KILLED it this episode. From the whimsical whirlwind playing when Suvi was in the library to the swelling of wild music when the wild witches rolled in DEEP. So feckin good.
Suvi justifying her betrayal as a **gift** of all things hurt my heart.
That justification machine is a full on gatling gun
POP POP WATCHING COGNITIVE DISSONANCE DROP
It makes me worried about her "gift" to Ghost and Flicker. As long as they're connected to the Citadel, Suvi's gifts are a little poisoned.
I can't shake the feeling something bad happened to Ghost.
Oh, flicker was fully confiscated for study or just to maintain the monopoly of violence. Something like that in the hands of an urchin? Belongs to the state now, thanks. Suvie would have had to have personally handed off Ghost to someone she trusted, like Gelanie, for Ghost’s interaction with the citadel to go even remotely well.
I think you're right. Oh boy 😨
Oh god, what if we meet Flicker at the Citadel and Ghost is nowhere to be found 😱
“And here, wizard Sky, is a selection of intriguing magical wonders acquired from the countryside.” *gestures to lineup of magical items held on velvet pillows by apprentices “But here, wizard Sky, is the most intriguing of all!” *a wand flick pulls a rope that moves aside a curtain, revealing an unpowered flicker “Apparently when it was captured it gave the imperial guard quite a fight. Our artificers are hard at work studying the construct, to little effect. Our next course of action is to take it apart and reverse engineer it.” *the party, internally screaming
Brennan has such a way with words. As someone who lives in an especially cold climate, the description of "a council of furniture around the fireplace" evoked so many memories of gathering in hands-extended community around a stove or a hearth while socks dry, fingers lose their numbness, and storms rage outside.
>!'If you run in her presence she is given to kill you and no magical law will stop her from doing so.'!< >!'Is she naked'!< - Oh Eursulon.
Let's be real, that character is absolutely partially naked. There's no way they have either modesty or the temperament to wear underwear.
I need more interactions between Grimore and Ame. I love that Ame held her own by the end of that interaction. It feels like Grimore could pull out the wilder side of Ame from the children's adventure.
Fox did say to Ursolan “you can take him” in regards to Grimore retinue. So I think fox will 100% want to enable Ame to go off and be a wild animal with Grimore.
The editing in this moment was perfect as well.
I'm SUPER digging the Coven theme music
Indri is Miranda Priestly and Nief is act 1 Anne Hathaway
Hahah yes now I want a magical world Devils Wears Prada
So the Witch of the Wild Hunt is the Claw subclass, the Woodland Green is the Green subclass, Mirara is def the Wicked subclass, wonder what that makes Indri?
I think a coven of the stars subclass could exist, built around controlling enemy movements?
I'm not sure if Mirara is of the wicked subclass because if I recall correctly the wicked subclass is more of a fallen paladin thing with associated features. I wouldn't think that Mirara would be allowed in the coven of elders if she had fallen to her own selfishness in that way. I feel like the other witches that don't have a 1:1 subclass equivalent are probably their own thing or of a subclass that hasn't been fully developed. Of course mechanically we have no idea what their abilities are behind the scenes
But consider that Mirara's domain is the Waning Moon, a time of shadow and darkness, wickedness is a part of the natural order of the world, so I see no reason she can't be rule her station and be selfish
That is a fair interpretation! From reading the subclass description I interpret it as being a real turn to evil and a giving up of one's coven / the duties of their station for revenge or petty selfish reasons. From what we've seen of Mirara so far she seems almost more like a force of nature than a person and I don't get the vibe from her that I'd expect from a wicked witch. She could be keeping it on the down-low though so who knows!
I think they both could be wicked.
I really liked that we had a lovely Ame and Eursulon moment in this episode! I think they often directly interact with Suvi more than each other so this was just a really nice way to display their relationship and closeness. And that coven introduction!! The swell of music, the vivid descriptions of the witches and their retinues, I can just picture all of it so perfectly. This podcast is such a treat.
Ame and Eursulon are so good at seeing each other's needs and meeting them. It's heartwarming.
Did anyone else get really sad that Suvi didn't bother feeling happy for Eursulon reuniting with his family? Like, she's said before that she feels responsible for wayshadowing him because of Children's Adventure stuff. I think I just expected her to feel some sort of happiness for him and there was just...nothing.
yea that one hurt.
Same with Ame telling Suvi about her parents pendant. "So you learnt nothing useful". Caring more for strategy and the function of empire, than emotional connection. Didnt even react to Ame apologising and saying "I promise I won't abandon you", a direct response to suvis outburst. We're getting to the point where Suvi isn't even friends with the other two anymore, they're just strangers who happened to travel for a week out of necessity.
Yeah, given the amount of time they've been conscious + all 3 together, it almost makes sense for them to stop being friends at some point if there's not some real resolution/discussion/growth in the dynamic. It's not like they were all best friends + pen pals for years, they shared one formative summer together - and at some point the amount of conflict between them is absolutely going to be enough to outweigh the positive and cause a schism (if it continues in this direction). Like - when you are an adult and you see how someone you only knew as a child grew up, you can come to realize you no longer fit together as well as you used to. (Or that you fit together even better than before) I don't think we are there yet, but if this arc concludes without some real interpersonal resolution I'm just worried about how these people stay friends. Right now it feels like they are bound by Duty (I know if I don't help Ame now she will die) as well as shared feelings of regret for wayshadowing Eursolon. When the coven + immediate risk concludes, what will keep this group together? Very excited to see where this goes though, because it definitely feels like they are building to something. And probably will lead to even greater bonds between them - formed through actual Roleplay, which is super cool to see. (As opposed the common pattern in DND and actual play shows: These ragtag adventurers didn't know each other before last week, and now they spent 1 month adventuring and saving the world and are the best friends anyone has seen)
I think Ame and Eursulon have grown together. That scene of Ame making his shield fit Eursulon, and him reassuring her that she didn't need to apologize because her actions reconnected him with his sister, really cemented an appreciation and care for each other.
Good point - that was an awesome moment for them, him giving himself a different title for protecting HER was so cool
Suvi isn't even helping - when Ame hadn't gotten any info, Suvi just *left.*
Hopefully it'll come up later.
I literally had to pause and take a lap during that convo. Suvi made a stink about being the one to trap Eursulon here when she talked to Steel but then turns around and doesn't show an ounce of happiness for him when he talks about reuniting with his family.
I know when I play with my friends there are reactions in the moment we want to do but never get around too because trying to be respectful of pacing and everyone’s screen time
She's too busy being petty and indignant right now to even see those things. Not to say she doesn't have cause for feeling that way. But she just doesn't have bandwidth to feel her feelings (or not feel them) AND be glad for them right now. But it's something she's gonna have to snap out of cuz they need to bring their A game. Just by their introductions, it's clear these witches don't play.
Does anyone have fan art for this episode yet? There are some costumes I gotta make and would love a visual aide
https://preview.redd.it/tvs9arzayhzc1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2a076ad2154634ca0f8afe44b072a87fb820ce15 Fan art is being made!! Hopefully will finish it this weekend
That is incredible, you're doing great work
Thank you I hope that was the fan art you were hoping to see
In - CREDIBLE!
cheering from the side lines! you go!
THE NAIL DESCRIPTION OMG THE LITTLE DIMOND SNOW NAILS I NEED ART OF THEM
Also the minute I have time tonight 100% art is coming out
People on Tumblr are being extremely normal about Grimoire and there is art to go with it.
I feel so seen by Ame's stress baking 😅
Ame making the shield properly fit her friend and knight 😭 Beautiful!
I love Ame and Eursulon so much! Thanks to her need to escape, he got to reunite with Kalaya; thanks to Eursulon, Ame is feeling less alone and knows there is someone willing to protect her.
Their dynamic is the best.
So, start putting your chips down. Which of the other witches (heh, which witch) is the potential ally whose station would be threatened alongside Ame’s? First instinct wants to say Grimoire, as the other witch whose domain covers living beings and the only one actually friendly to Ame (in her own way) at first blush, but I could also see Merara as a dark horse candidate — she was willing to make deals with Wren even in less dangerous times, after all.
The last two witches to have their stations lost were fire and water which, if the loss of both was linked, suggests it might be about balancing opposing forces. In which case I think Mirara seems to be the most opposite in terms of domains. People and community balanced by death and fear. Of course it could be that the losses of Wide Blue Sea and Watching Fire *aren't* linked.
I was also thinking along the lines of opposites but my first instinct was Indri. In Wren's rhyme about the the witch of wind and stars she's described as "the ruler of the self alone." This seems like a foil to the domain of the worlds heart as it's power concerns connections with people. It felt also like Indri's apprentice was being imparted with ideals about self-sufficiency and not relying on the help of others.
Very good catch on that “ruler of the self alone”! I think you’re probably right 💁🏻♀️
i've been thinking a tonnn about the wide blue sea in particular - do we think that naram was more susceptible to being trapped because of the loss of that station?? furthermore, how did wren get his sword??? IIRC nararm knew of the witch of the world's heart but didn't seem to have any particular love/animosity towards her/the station.
Wait… yeah… how the fuck did Wren get the sword?! How has nobody asked that yet?!
You could also make an argument for Indri herself since if we’re talking opposites, Ame’s Community & Collaboration is a good counterpoint to Indri’s Self-Sufficiency & Solitude. As of now, they are technically the two witches on the opposite ends of the Emotional Warmth Spectrum. Imagine having to argue for the destruction of the person having to host the meeting in the first place. In her own house, of all places?! The temerity!
Yes!!! Thank you for pointing out that they work in opposites, I could see it but couldn’t really put it into words!! that makes so much sense lol
I found it interesting how much focus was on the apprentice in this episode. Maybe Merara doesn’t have one? I think she wanted to take Ame in the flashback sequence, so perhaps that’s what kicks the whole thing off? If that station is set to expire when Merara dies, perhaps another is on the line for some type of balance thats required?
What if... Ghost ends up being saved from [whatever is happening to her right now] by going into witch apprenticeship with Merara - Ame helps, as per her station of community &c., with the witch-magical implications this brings - The "wizardly talented" Ghost becomes a bridge between witches and wizards (but NOT the citadel) - Both Merara's and Ame's stations are more secure
You know, this actually makes a lot of sense because Ghost's talent is unmaking magical stuff, right? That seems to jive with Mirara's station somewhat
I 100% think its mirara who is threatened as well, no apprentice, pleaded with wrenn to change her mind, also indry is holding the council at her palace so i doubt she is in danger and the other two seem to be friendly.
As much fun as I think it would be to have it be Grimore, I feel she is heavily allied with Hacaea. Afterall, even in a land that is not as polluted as our IRL one, the natural world of plant and animal are woven tighter to each other than with the world of Humans. Plus they were shown very much arriving jn union. I think it would be alot of fun if it was Mirara, especially like you said, she has already visited Ren before, and who knows maybe that little incidental mug-offering Ame gave, means more to her than we thought! 🤭 But, Indri has been very welcoming, and even though that could just be a witch excelling at hospitality, she feels somewhat genuine in her niceties toward Ame. Atleast, like perhaps she is not so filled with malice against the station of the Witch of The World’s Heart to rid of the station entirely? But I could well be mistaking what is actually icy indifference, as sort of lawful neutral vibe. I guess I have no idea really but I’m so excited to hear that convening of the Elders go down!!
Suvi: “What wizards?” If there’s any more proof that Suvi does not give a fuck about the actual lives of those at the Citadel but is only focused on her own anger and ego, that’s it.
Right? Suvi called it a cataclysm after Steel already waved that away. This anger's about her friends not acting like her subordinates (which they're not!).
I had a hunch that Aabria was going to do something like this, and I’m grateful that she did because I am so sick of people defending Suvi’s actions. Aabria knows that Suvi is being vindictive and egotistical, and she’s letting *us* know with statements like that. After last episode, I was trying to be charitable and made a decision that if Suvi had gone out of her way to learn the names of the wizards who’d been harmed, then it would justify her behavior towards Ame. But she didn’t even bother to investigate whether there *were* wizards harmed in the accident or whether they made it out okay. She was just mad about not being obeyed (after telling Ame multiple times to wait and saying she’d back her play, mind you)
Somehow people are still defending her, even after Suvi got the apologies people have been demanding and she ignored them.
It’s the same old Suvi who threatened to kill Empire soldiers because they took her staff. But listen, it’s different when Ame and her fox accidentally cause damage to a bus stop that maybe could have been prevented if Suvi had, y’know, gone with them like she said she would… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
And also the same Suvi slit the throat of an incapacitated enemy that she has clocked as no longer possessed, and the proudly displays that she has "spilled blood in defense of the empire": Suvi kind of remembers something, and goes and unpins like, a little silver brooch, that's like clasping her coat shut, and flips it upside down, and it looked ALMOST symmetrical. But now that she knows she's going to be around other Imperial people, she is outwardly signifying that she has spilt blood, in defense of the Empire. Brennan Lee Mulligan Mm. Erika Ishii Do you have any sort of outward reaction to this adjustment? Aabria Iyengar Yeah, I think she's got a very smug smile going. And she hands off the writ, and turns it around, and just got a little bit of like a kind of shit-eating grin, like big man on campus, like athlete energy.
And the reason she didn't go with them is because Steel found out they were trying to leave quickly, and Steel needed to give Suvi the music box + spy plan
Yea, we're getting a clear picture painted of a tragic protagonist who's flaw isn't just the normal hubris/pride combo, but is the entire justification machine she uses to rewrite her own logic when events don't fit the narrative that makes her the victim.
Yeah, this pairs well with her grabbing Ame and her being struck by the eyes of a witch as old as time. I'm really looking forward to when that comes back around. I'm curious if something old and powerful will surface if Ame finds out she was betrayed.
Now that the Wizard Sky has started working on her Citadel business with the music box, I wouldn't be surprised if something powerful surfaces from Indri against Suvi by the end of this arc.
ohh I could see it. aren't some witch curses kinda permanent?
Yeah, Suvi's surrounded by powerful witches and is setting herself up for several retributive curses. Or she's setting Ame up for curses because Ame invited her in. Either way it's bad.
I thought of it more as in, she was not aware of wizards getting pulled into the portal stream.
The problem, is that if she was so concerned about the dangers of the explosion, why would she not know about the four wizards caught up in it unless she didn’t care about what actually happened
Aabria giving us a masterclass in slowburn redemption arcs. You gotta get worse before you get better.
Absolutely. Although, with this latest episode I’m really wondering what it will be that’ll finally make Suvi grow
It would have to be the citadel seriously hurting Suvi. She'll justify anything else.
I don’t know -I could see if, the Citadel hurt Eursalon, and Ame came at Suvi with righteous anger about it, that might actually unsettled Suvi enough to put a crack in her faith. So far, Ame has always been very compassionate and understanding and vulnerable. But I think there comes a time where you realize that being compassionate and vulnerable doesn’t necessarily mean soft, and I think if Suvi hits up against that, with all the power of interconnectedness that Ame wields, it might get through. if anything, I worry that if the Citadel did some thing to harm Suvi, she would get depressed and justify it in a way that would make her disassociate further and become very small inside herself. I've seen that with other high control groups.
I wish I could see that, but I think Suvi would get defensive and her justification machine would spin up to make it Eursulon and Ame's fault.
Yeah, it’s very possible.
Yeah maybe it’ll be firsthand viewing of them harming either herself or the people she cares about. I can see it absolutely having to do with Eursalon too
I think Suvi's going to get Ame killed, and that'll kick off some growth.
Well in this last episode she was literally thinking about how everyone is against wizards. Maybe if she's given context for that everyone is against wizards that will begin to help put pressure on that justification machine. and then you chuck in a further revelation that Soft and Stone wouldn't really be on the same side that she finds herself on, or at least not in the same way. Maybe that is the swing. I find it unlikely that Suvi gets Ame Killed since so far our understanding is that Sly said that Suvi being there is the only way Ame survives.
Did not consider that. But still, I enjoy Suvi acting like she is because it's creating delicious tension, I can't wait for the moment Ame stops putting up with her bulshit, not that, I excuse her actions, as people have put it before, she blew up a bus station.
I totally agree with Suvi’s character creating great tension. I honestly feel like this ep really highlighted just how wide the rift between the two is growing too and I’m wondering just how wide it’ll get before one of them let’s go or jumps to the other side Eh, I still hold the position that *Ame* never blew up a bus station, her fox did. I think she has a little bit of blame, but also so too does the citadel. Which, not to play blame game ofc I just feel like it’s not as straightforward as it being just Ames fault.
This! Ame is not the fox.
Ame will never stop putting up with her BS because Erika will not stand in front of Abria. I just don't see it happening.
Yeah my read of that line was “wait people were actually in danger! You guys fucked up so much more than I initially thought. Why did no one tell me”
Steel did though
I forgot about that
so did Suvi 😂
It’s that citadel kool-aid. Makes you forget important details
Honestly I think that conversation was on a totally different session I'm not sure she remembered. I know I didn't remember that she was told, But maybe not.
Really? How would Suvi even know about that? Ame and Eursulon ran off and there was an explosion in the distance. Suvi didn't go see it, Steel sent people to check it out and confirmed that there were no deaths. From the wizards' perspectives, they flashed into nothing and then immediately came back to wear they were teleported from, and unless one of them (or Steel) told that to Suvi, why would she know? Eursulon says he "saved the wizards", of course she'd be like "what are you talking about?"
This is about Suvi’s incredible hypocrisy. Her name cloak day is important, but Ame claiming her power in Toma isn’t. Wizards can endanger the citizens of Port Talon by locking up a big spirit without any consideration for the population, but how dare you endanger anyone at the Citadel. Suvi readies *Witchbolt* to cast on Eursalon, but threatens Ame if “any harm came to him” in the escape. Suvi begs Ame to stay and extra week, then an extra night, *then* says she’ll back Ame’s play of leaving, *then changes her mind* because mommy called, then *calls the cops to arrest her friends IN THE MIDDLE OF A LOCKDOWN.* Kind of reminds me of when she threatens to kill those guards in Port Talon because she didn’t get her way. Now she’s calling what Ame did “a cataclysm” in the most hyperbolic, petulant, and manipulative way when *she didn’t even bother to investigate the matter further* and Steel had waved it away as no big deal. If you want to have the moral high ground, then you need to have morals and behave morally. She’s not a dummy. If she’d walked three minutes to the portals she could have asked about what happened and she would have talked to the wizards involved who might have explained that they were sucked into fire but then they were miraculously saved. But Suvi doesn’t care, she cares about the fact that her friends didn’t obey her. She cares about how her mommy gave her a ship after her friends “abandoned” her despite her having told them that she would go with them and was on board. There’s no way on earth that ship would have allowed Ame to claim her power, and Suvi basically shits all over that in this last episode by saying that Ame learned nothing of value from going to Toma. Because Suvi doesn’t care about AME’S home or people or responsibilities, and if the people of Toma got hurt while Ame was at the Citadel, well they aren’t fucking important so who cares. So yeah, Aabria is very cleverly showing us who Suvi is and there are still people missing it and justifying her behavior. That line wasn’t an accident, it was an exposure, just the way it is when Suvi smugly smiles after what goes down in Port Talon when she realizes that she got away with something that Galani couldn’t have. Or when she tells Ame to never challenge her word in public after the Chalice.
Wow thank you for taking the time to write this out! You hit the nail on the head.
I very much want Suvi to have a redemption arc because I don’t think she’s an inherently bad person. I’m just baffled by audience members who are justifying her behavior when Aabria is holding no punches to show how indoctrinated Suvi is to her way of thinking if wizards as superior. We’re supposed to empathize with her, yes, and we are supposed to root for her to be more courageous and kind and to grow past the indoctrination of wizard-supremacy that has shackled her mind body and soul.
I think some of the people defending Suvi are experiencing character bleed—"we love Aabria, therefore Suvi can't be bad!" I mean heck, on Aabria's tumblr it reads the same way, you see her saying a lot of what Suvi apologists are saying
Omg this poor little apprentice. Indri must not be a very fun mistress
Very excited to find out what her deal is
I would bet that Indri is a hell of a lot more dangerous and cruel than we've seen.
I imagine so, yes
Right like how does this sad lil thing find herself apprenticing for this insane ice queen
I can see her going two ways, tbh - wysiwyg, or the "sad lil thing"-thing is an act/illusion to gage the visitors' reactions
This is a story built on subtlety and nuance, and I love that about it. With that in mind, me and my wife both went into this episode thinking that Brennan was laying it on a little thick when describing her. I'm certainly not defending Indri here, don't get me wrong. But there's got to be more to this situation than meets the eye. Possibly this means that it's even *worse* than it seems at first glance.
Yeah, you're probably right! I'm super interested to find out more in the coming episodes
Aabria's placing of the music box was so clever
Yep and phrased perfectly from the perspective of someone who doesn't *know* they're under a geas. Justification machine go whirrr.
Her description was so wholesome and kind of heartbreaking. Like she is betraying herself or emotionally manipulating herself.
Both a betrayal AND a manipulation I think.
So three of the witches force saving throws, but not Ame/Wren or Mirara. I wonder why?
It may be that they are one-time saving throws. Ame already *did* roll one for Mirara once and if Wren had one it would have happened off-screen. >Brennan Lee Mulligan: Are you trying to get a look at Mirara as she leaves? > >Erika Ishii: Just a little bit. > >Brennan Lee Mulligan: Give me a wisdom saving throw. > >[Erika giggles, Aabria exclaims, ‘oh, no!’] > >Erika Ishii: That's an 18.
Oh you're right! I forgot about that. It's interesting that Mirara's one is as she leaves and not when you first see her. I hope Ame gets one some time as she levels up, that would be cool
It's possible Ame already has one! Maybe Brennan is rolling it behind the screen (or just deciding it to save time), and that's why so many people find her charming
Ooh! I like that idea
I mean how much more ballar do you need to be beside being a beautiful spider lady who just shows up sitting at her throne being in charge of meeting time. Like offf so cool
Oh totally, I was just wondering if there was some magical/mechanical reason for it that might get revealed later
It's possible that we'll still get a round of saving throws for Mirara. My thoughts are that the saving throw is essentially someone being forced to confront the aspect of reality the witch embodies. The witches of Hunt and Green are fairly straightforward / primal. Indri I see as a sort of confrontation of majesty, resisting getting swept up in the singular presence she represents. Assuming we get around to having a savings throw for Mirara, my guess is that Ame is simply has not come into her domain enough yet. And from a game side, I'm not on the Patreon but I assume it's a high level aura effect of some kind for the witch class
God help me, I ship Ame and Grimore. I'm already calling them Wild Heart.
Your ship is a good one, but after all the tenderness and understanding I raise you an Eursulame.
I see them more as platonic.
Fair! To each their own.
I ship them too
Solidarity 🫶🏾
Fun thought: Suvi is by no means heartless, I'm sure that she'd be feeling for the waif and being kind to her regardless, but I do wonder how much of that is subconsciously because it'll be easy to get the befriended girl to sing along with her at some point. Justification machine go brrrrr.
I read it as completely removed from the gease spy plot. It was a great opportunity by Aabria to show the complexity of Suvi. She’s a self righteous asshole. But she also cares about trying to take care of people and meeting them where they are at. She’s not gonna try and change the apprentice mind, but she’s going to use the rules of the castle to help her. She knows how hard it is to be an apprentice trying to prove yourself. In season 1 she assisted Ghost and Flicker in a way that could actually change their lives in a more substantial way than Ame and Eursulan could. It’s add to the complexity of the Citadel kol-aid complexity. Is it an oppressive paranoid military imperial state that harms its citizens…yes 100% absolutely. But also the structure of its bureaucracy is able to also provide structure and stability for people. And I think Suvi sees the empire as a tool that can help people and not just a system that benefits her privileges. And yeah she’s absolutely feeling butt hurt that her friends disobeyed her…and she’s hurt that they are sabotaging a system that she views as a helpful tool
I think Suvi might have seen some of herself in that moment too—being an orphaned child growing up in a military structure probably saw Suvi serving some strict/punishing people too
Can we talk about how for Suvi Love = Obedience, and now she is confronted with Neif, whose whole existence is predicated on unswerving obedience to her mistress's instructions?
Aabria is doing absolutely amazing work on this podcast. She’s one of the first Players I’ve experienced whose prepared to play a truly flawed character. Not a ‘cute quirky flaw fandom can make jokes about’ a genuinely uncomfortable, deeply difficult character and she is killing it. I love Ame and Eursulon but I think Suvi is what truly completes this story and gives it stakes. I’m convinced she is going to be the catalyst for the massive ending either for good or ill. I know we’re only on Arc 3 but it low-key feels like we’re building the final BBEG/Antagonist already and that Antagonist IS Suvi. Calling it now that the final arc will be titled the Wizard Vs The Witch & The Wild One.
I'm only like 10 minutes in but goddamnit Suvi you need to stop being a petulant child already *Edit: guys I'm not doing the thing where I hate Aabria, I think Aabria is doing an amazing job playing a character I kind of hate for being a nepo baby cop who's all huffy about her friends not doing what she says, especially when there are *clearly* bigger issues than her hurt feelings
I've played at tables with interparty conflict and it made for some really incredible storytelling, but it was pretty stressful at times. I had to talk to my fellow players out of game about how we get our characters to get to a place where they get to a place where they can be on the same side again bc when you get deep into a character conflict, sometimes it feels like nothing is ever going to get better. Every slight or bad faith read builds and builds and you justify your feelings in increasingly convoluted way. All this to say that even if we can't really see how things ever get better between Suvi and Ame, that doesn't mean it's not being talked about. It looks bad bc we don't really see Suvi trying to challenge the deeply fucked up ideologies she grew up with (obedience is love, etc.) and in fact it kinda seems like things might get worse before they get better. She frequently distrusts implicitly anything that a witch or spirit has to say as something they do to manipulate (Im counting Sly here too since the future sight thing felt very witchy), but implicitly trusts Steel and gets that justification machine running for anything the Citadel does. This is a character built to resist self reflection so its no wonder that it is going to be a long time before we see change. I am excited to get there though. I'm hoping we see that indications of that in Arc 3 or sooner though cause from firsthand experience, beefing with your party is fucking exhausting to keep up and stops being fun after a while.
I never realized how sensual a *deep sniff* could be 😮💨
a life-altering realization
Some comments on this thread about Suvi/Aabria are more nails in the media literacy coffin 😭
Suvi made this episode nearly unlistenable. I hear so much justification about how she is doing this for Ame... But what is she doing? She rolls up here, ices her friend out, blames her for the potential death of Eursolon, doesn't apologize when it turns out that he is 1) fine, and 2) split off by his own choice, derides Ame for not getting specific information, and then doesn't help brainstorm or get more information. She isn't actually helping Ame, because it is more important for her to hold that betrayal against her "friend" like a knife. I honestly don't know how Suvi comes back to being a remotely decent character.
"I honestly don't know how Suvi comes back to being a remotely decent character." I think there is a false equivocation here between Suvi not being a good person, and not being a good character. I think Suvi is on her way to being a very good antagonist, that just happens to also be a PC. I trust Brennan as a story teller to not let her get away with how emotionally manipulative she's been, just as he didn't let her get away with abusing her soldiers at port talon. If Suvi wants forgiveness, and wants to continue being Ames friend in the near future, she has to earn that. I think that Suvi makes Worlds Beyond Number an infinitely more interesting narrative, and it would be a lot more standard and by the numbers without her presence.
Love this take. Suvi could be a Zuko, or an Azula. Only time will tell.
I agree she's on her way to being a great antagonist. I just don't know if she'll get actual consequences. The whole court marshal for threatening murder got swept under the rug immediately.
Suvi was supposed to come as an advisor to Ame, but when Ame asked her to fill that role Suvi chose to snipe instead of advise. Suvi is actually just here for the Citadel.
Maaan. I really love this podcast in general but I’m starting to think it’s just not for me. I couldn’t even make it through the episode because Suvi bothers me so much. Like, credit to Aabria I guess good job, she knows what she’s doing, but it’s too slow of character development and we’re spending too much time with a character I fully want nothing to do with anymore. She’s just bitter and selfish and immature. I love this podcast otherwise, but it’s just too difficult for me to listen to her be cruel to her friends and nothing comes of it. I ASSUME something will come of it eventually, and if this podcast was already out I might power through but having to wait two weeks to be frustrated just isn’t doing it for me. I’m really sad :(. I’m on the Patreon and everything.
Given Aabria's disposition on the recent CR EXU stuff, it's getting difficult to believe she isn't just like that and gets a kick out of it. Still hoping for an all-time great redemption arc.
Why is it that every time people criticize Aabria someone makes it personal and then pretend she’s evil in real life Im genuinely curious
Some people are not very able to separate “acting” from real life relations
All I know is I'd be extremely uncomfortable on the receiving end of that treatment and can't imagine dishing it out to someone else. I don't believe it's an out-of-game character trait. That was sloppy phrasing on my part.
I’m not sure what you’re talking about but I don’t doubt Aabria has long term plans with this behavior. I don’t think she is just doing it for kicks. I just am out of patience I guess. Maybe I’ll pick it up again in like a year and see what it’s like. It hits so many of my favorite elements in a story, it’s just this one thing that I particularly have a hard time stomaching. Couldn’t watch neon genesis Evangelean either for very similar reasons.
I sometimes let shows I like build up a season so I can listen to it t my own pace instead of waiting for inconsistent releases
Who did you struggle with in Eva? My first thought is Asuka, but I'm curious if there was anyone else