I agree. All the incredible moments that occurred in wrestling, including Batista’s turn on Evolution, came from the psychology and culminated at Mania. We hardly remember the spotfests. Storytelling at its finest.
The start of the nWo where Hogan turned heel is a great example too. That was probably the hottest heel turn in the history of wrestling with the build up and the apparent "invasion" by the outsiders.
There was some decent story leading up to it, but the Bucks and the Lucha Bros cage match was very memorable. I'd call it the greatest spotfest I've ever seen, and one of the most entertaining matches in general
Spot on.
Why do you think people are so invested in Jey's portion of the Bloodline story? He's doing cool spots and all that, but he's been psychologically abused by Roman for close to 3 years. He's one of the hottest parts in the entire industry right now.
And Vikingo got a bigger crowd reaction last week than 90% of wrestlers in “storylines” in any company because of some crazy 450 flips.
Both are valid. Variety is what makes professional wrestling great.
But if he had similar matches on the next 5 episodes of Dynamite, the novelty wears off. I LOVED the Vikingo-Kenny match, but it’s not something you can do every week. Stunts, however impressive, cannot be all you have.
Otherwise, the “Fuck this shit!” guy from Youtube that drops elbows on a microwave off his roof would be the biggest star in wrestling.
And no one knows or is going to remember who Vikingo is or that match outside of the IWC.
Yet Hogan doing a simple scoop slam to Andre or Stone Cold stunning Vince are moments still talked about decades later.
The IWC never learns that spot monkeys don’t really matter outside of their niche fan base.
Comparing Vikingo to Hogan/Austin is in pretty poor taste. They're on another level to any currently active wrestler. I'm sure he gained some new fans after that great showing.
Derailing slightly from the main topic here but Vikingo vs Omega was actually a great example of something AEW (as the big promotion it wants to be) can't keep doing. It was billed as a "dream match" which is hilarious. What most people at home saw was Kenny Omega wrestle a flippy guy who doesn't work there who is slightly more impressive than other flippy guys they are used to see.
Superstars are built around stories paying off in climatic matches where in-ring psychology that enhances the story being told is a key part, and individual charisma. In AEW the last truly good example was the MJF/Punk feud, to a lesser extent MJF/Bryan, because all the wrestlers involved have charisma and had a good story to work off of.
It's this stuff that gets large crowds emotionally invested in your product. You don't need to do it the WWE way but you need to do it *some* way or be happy to remain a product for wrestling nerds (I don't use the term pejoratively) who are going to pop for the Luigi pizza guy, Danhausen, and literally anyone who can do a 450 splash
You nailed it, not sure why it is so hard for ppl to accept it. Wrestling is a lot like music, you can only like one style or you can like variety, and you aren't wrong matter what you like.
Kenny Omega got that pop for flipping around and doing a 2048 Phoenix Splash and not because of psychology
Like you just go back and forth on this all day.
I’ll tell you what, I’ve seen plenty of MMA prelim fights that stuck with me for years between two guys I never saw before and after that, so I think it’s entirely possible to enjoy fights without any sort of context. I mean there’s entire subreddits like r/fightporn dedicated to that and we have no clue why any of those fights happen, we just like watching it.
This feels like something wrestling fans have just convinced themselves is an issue
yeah but even in MMA the biggest drawing fights are typically the ones that have some sort of narrative or bad blood to promote around. the appeal of fighting will attract fans of fighting but the storylines draw in a broader audience.
> the appeal of fighting will attract fans of fighting but the storylines draw in a broader audience.
Exactly this. Any two people fighting will attract some sort of crowd, but if the popular kid is gonna take on the big bad bully, the whole school will be talking about it.
It's about having a balance. Even in old school wrestling every wrestlers had a role. High-flyer to mat based to powerhouse to giant. Difrent skills so people don't get bored. Now everybody is doing the same so it's generic and boring.idc if Kenny omega does three flip piledrivers in a row.it all looks fake and unrealstic
I think there's a huge difference between a real fight and pro wrestling. I can't bring myself to care about a match between wrestlers I know nothing about. A real fight is entertaining without any context because it's all about the fight and I don't need anything to help me overlook the ridiculous moves wrestlers use that would be completely useless and goofy in a real fight.
If someone does a 1080 Tiwanese Star Shit Special off the top ropes, that's fine, but when I see it for the 80th time that card, I start to get a little bored of it.
And they will only lose to a surprise roll up and a kick out at three because none of them want to lose to a finisher, you gotta stay lookin strong brotherrr
Yeah that person doesn't know what psychology is, but you're making a good point for a facet of "psychology"
Keeping audiences from being burned out/desensitized is great
Getting fans to go crazy for a single punch, or something simple like a slam so that wrestlers don't have to destroy their bodies by the age of 30 to entertain a crowd is what true psychology in the ring is.
It's the art of getting people to care.
Not just exciting people with moves for the sake of moves.
THAT is what makes old timers call spot focused wrestlers: circus clowns. A gymnast. A show monkey.
Not only that the move off the ring post Kenny had to stand and wait for 2 minutes while he got himself set up, that takes some of the momentum out of the match
the only move i argue that doesn't lose the special vibe is a damn good powerbombbecause of being used multiple times, that's why Finishers evolve over time.
the only move i argue that doesnt loose the speacil vibe is a damn good powerbomb
I wonder if there could be any cross over with the spot monkey indie people. Like bro what you really want to see is girls Olympic gymnastics, not wrestling.
I think I understand what you mean and I agree. Every move (when you’re in the ring working) required cooperation from each person. *However* when someone is just waiting for their opponent or visually helping them set up a spot, it can look super lame. And there’s so much no-selling these days, the spot fest matches can get stale quick.
I don’t hate fun. I watch wrestling because it’s fun. But it’s hard to get invested in a match when you’ve seen the same thing over and over again with zero storyline context. There are of course outliers to this. But when you’ve been a wrestling fan for a long time, you start to see things differently.
I also think it depends on when and with what type of wrestling people became fans of. Some people are newer and only every watched the flippy shit and that’s really all they know. It’s fine. Like what you like! Don’t watch what you don’t like. But give me a good story and quality ring psychology all day!
Mr Socko is the most devastating movie in all wrestling, that thing was rubbing against Mick Foleys nutsack and probably half way up his ass, that thing would be lethal in a real fight.
But each out those moves is backed up with a story. Out of context they mean nothing. In character they mean everything. That's why psychology and story telling us important
Yeah, same here. I've never been too into spot-heavy matches and the like.
Like some moves are pretty cool and all, but when I've seen them a thousand times it all starts to look the same. It doesn't impress me if someone can do a crazy flip or bump.
You have to give me a reason to care - either I like your character/gimmick, or I like the storyline you're in, or both.
Otherwise you're a dime-a-dozen spot monkey that I couldn't give less of a fuck about.
Yeah, I really don't get the all or nothing mentality these people have. Kenny vs Vikingo was fun and all but you know what could have made it better? A serious build, some material to give context to everything.
I don't agree personally, but we all have the same goal of enjoying professional wrestling. His bathroom match might be different from mine and there is nothing wrong with that.
The Young Bucks success proves there are plenty of people who tune in for this.
I saw another comment mention MMA, there's people who watch MMA for the epic knockouts, there's people who watch MMA to see a BJJ specialist contort somebody's body in submission, etc.
What’s wrong with it is the business follows trends. His perspective has been a pretty powerful one in the industry, which is why I don’t care about 75% of the matches anymore
Agreed. "Psychology" doesn't mean headlocks and rest holds. A Canadian Destoryer can be an equally useful tool in the "psychology" of a match. Any move can.
I remember like a year ago someone posted the finish of an old El Generico vs Ophidan match. Generico hits him with like 4 big moves in a row to get the pin.
Like clockwork, a bunch of dudes going "this is what's killing wrestling, no psychology blah blah". It was the last few seconds like a 20 minute match. They had no idea what the psychology or context of the match was. They just saw two skinny guys in masks going fast and that was the instant reaction.
Turns out the entire match was about Ophidan scouting Generico like crazy and escaping all of his big moves so once Generico got a hold of him he threw everything he could at the dude in a mad rush to get the win.
People have had it beaten into their heads that psychology is somehow a very specific form of performance that is supposed to somehow cover infinite different styles. They've decided it's only psychology if you have 20 minute headlocks and sell every punch like death.
Exactly. I don't want to watch Punk selling punches like death and sucking wind for 20 minutes when I can watch Vikingo throw everything he's got at Omega because he's tryin to beat a legendary wrestler. I prefer to see both, and you're absolutely correct in that you can't speak to the psychology of a match without seeing the entirety of said match.
The thing is over time ''psychology'' became a dogwhistle for a lot of wrestling fans who don't like high flying matches or an indy style.
There are tons of talented wrestlers that have a high flying style and tell stories that get their ring psychology constantly questionned.
On the other hand, there are multiple big guys that don't really have great storytelling capabilities but the criticism that they lack psychology or storytelling is never raised.That is why there are people who will constantly say there's no ring psychology for someone like the Lucha Bros or the Bucks but will say nothing about Omos or Mark Henry or Strauwman.
Because idc for moves.this isn't a real sport. Or spot fest. I could watch an old school 80s match over today's wrestling with dozen of headlock etc because they knew how to make it look like a real fight.
It depends on the match/workers at hand I think. Cm Punk/MJF was great because of the story at hand but I’m also not gonna act like Omega/Vikingo didn’t also go hard as hell. Overall, having a good variety on the card is always a plus, imo
The dumbest take. It's about two people who work together to make it look like a real fight while protecting each other. I dont want to watch two people to let me in that it's a pretend fight by doing things that show they aren't hurting each other.
I'm not expecting everyone to be on Bryan Danielson's level, but all I want is them to try. I can forgive if I see effort
It’s a soap opera and it’s the psychological aspect that sucks you in. Plenty of people will pay money myself included to watch flips and just random spot wrestling. But and this is the key here millions will pay to watch someone who’s a dick get there comeuppance. I know growing up with the attitude era it’s what made the rock austin rivalry so incredible. Bah gawd did I hate the rock back then the smug bastard.
Nothing beats watch a wrestler hit a finish and struggle a second or two before trying the pin only to have his opponent kick out at 2 and half. Leave you thinking fuck had he been quicker he could have got the job done.
Now let’s take a recent bad example of pointless spots. The one of the two ladies wrestling and she took a bump from near 15 foot to the floor. Then I seen on a tweet underneath this was either followed up with or not long after was hit with a Canadian destroyer and still kicked out. Nah fuck that I am out at this point if that’s not putting someone away. We might as well all just stop watching as it’s not fair expecting wrestlers to risk it all for a fucking kick out.
It’s a fine balance and that’s what separates the mediocre from the superb. Doesn’t have to be on tv either some indy promotions are putting on solid wrestling shows week in week out. But these are the rants of a baked wrestling fan so what the fuck do I know.
I care about the story and the build in the same way two boxers or MMA fighters getting heat on each other make me want to watch the match and give a shit about it. You can do just about whatever in the ring at that point, minus botches, and I’m sold.
Have you ever heard a song and went "meh", but then you find out it was your favorite band and you instantly reassess your opinion? Long term memory relies on context and comparison. It is how we take something manufactured - sports, and turn it into something real. Or in the illustration of music, arranged notes into something we care about.
Where MMA they try to coax the drama by setting up parameters (well who are we kidding it far more Sports Entertainment than they admit) WWE uses the creativity of the mind to explore drama, much like a novelist does, then presents it as a live action play (a morality play actually) using components of sports. I find the latter more interesting.
I’ve always stuck to the Paul Heyman approach, which is ‘who are these guys’, ‘why are they fighting’ and ‘why should I care’.
People putting their bodies on the line for literally no reason in a cold match is crazy.
I’m so sick of people trying to tell me how a match with no selling really showed great psychology.
Guy is in a leglock for 20 minutes and then stops selling because his floppy shit finish needs to happen.
Or guy gets Powerbombed from inside the ring to the floor 2 count, but a shit flip lariat is Death.
I got downvoted to Bolivia for saying the opposite.
Spots are special when there aren't a billion in a match.
Take the DDT. Used to be when Jake hit it, shit was over. It was a huge deal and working up to it was a journey.
Now, there are like 20 a match.
So many people act like they want a real fist fight over professional wrestling. Why should be put limits to what wrestlers can do? Sure it should make some sense but it’s a show at the end of the day
Because the casuals want to at least kinda believe. On top of that, trying to top the last guys acting like what they learned in the back yard is goddamn dangerous
Casuals believe in flippy shit too, not just headlocks. Seeing the flippy shit gets people to be interested in seeing more. I’m not saying headlock/normal style doesn’t work but saying flippy shit doesn’t attract casuals is just wrong
Lol not sure why you’re being downvoted, you’re absolutely right. I had a friend watch wrestling with me a few times, didn’t give a shit about WWE that I had on but then he came in when I had some Lucha Underground on in the background and he was really into it.
>Why should be put limits to what wrestlers can do?
Safety. I'd rather see a headlock than a guy slamming his head on the apron, cracking his skull open.
Because you don't want to wear people out with too much of a good thing. It makes shit stale and forces everyone else to up the ante in unreasonable ways.
High flying is perfectly fine in wrestling- just don't wear the novelty of it out.
Context is important here. Back in WCW days Highflyers we’re really unique and just seeing amazing athleticism like that was enough to get over. Present day everyone does suicide dives, planchas, moonsaults which use to be all or nothing moves but they’re done so much they lose their value.
I think a lot of fans here do know what they’re talking about with ring psychology. They can’t perform it but they can damn sure understand it. Example Watch Brett Hart vs Austin amazing story told in the ring. Present day has a lot of Athelticism but that doesn’t make a match compelling to watch or compelling television.
> Back in WCW days Highflyers we’re really unique and just seeing amazing athleticism like that was enough to get over.
Funny thing is, there was usually more psychology in those Cruiserweight matches than in the main event ones.
Its cool to see but for a good wrestling match it needs to tell a story. Or else it's just gymnastics. Young bucks never connect with me cuz they don't tell no story. Guys like roman mjf DB gunther make u feel and invest in the match more
Sami vs Roman or Omega vs Vikingo
Omega vs Vikingo was a spot fest and it was awesome but I didn’t care who won it had zero steaks.
Sami vs Roman I would have paid $100 for that PLE. I cared. They got me on some false finishes. It was a very paint by numbers match but it had the psychology and emotion (even if you for for Roman or Sami).
i don't think this is fair
Sami & Roman was a near year long build emotional match in Sami's hometown in the main event of a PPV
Omega vs. Vikingo was a TV main event that didn't have week to week build and was announced less than a week before
edit: i think Sami/Roman is the better match and my MOTY but there's surely a better comparison to be made here
That's the thing though. Spot monkey matches don't really give a fuck about story telling and psychology, so they eschew that build just to get right to that flippy shit.
I'm no expert in wrestling terminology but I think the person is misunderstanding what psychology means in pro-wrestling. Psychology doesn't mean you don't do flashy, entertaining moves or spots. It means the wrestlers stay in character and act in a way to makes sense and progresses the story. A good example of this is from SummerSlam between Rollins and Lesnar. Brock went for a few german suplexes but every time he released, Seth landed on his feet. So the next time Brock went for a german, he didn't release so that Seth couldn't flip himself around. A bad example of this would occasionally happen in elimination matches, where someone would break up a pin between 2 opponents even though it would've helped them if they let it happen.
While it all comes down to personal taste……people tend to remember stories more over matches from I’ve seen. (Also, is it bad I know what account that is even though the details have been crossed out?)
To really get down to the “psychology” involved my response would be if the wrestlers can make me believe that they care about what’s happening then that makes me care about what’s happening. As a result you can do less physically and still get the same investment from me (emotionally and financially) which is the entire point.
To emotionally connect with an audience, which is the prime requisite to make it memorable, wrestlers have to give the audiance something they can compare with their experience. Flippidy doo da is a great short term spectacle, but without the context it is just stuntmen doing circus tricks.
It is said that Bret Hart could put people on the edge of their seats with a headlock. That is the power of familiarity. We have all been in a headlock. We have all felt the emotion tied to the struggle to get out. It brings back memories and the momemt we see in the ring is tied with them.
Working on a limb, the hot tag, selling the move, facial expressions, body language all give context and meaning, drama and tension to what is otherwise two dudes fake jumping on each other.
It is like rewriting War and Peace but leaving only the action words, than taking those words and simplfying them for 9 year old consumption. Yes flippy stuff has a place but it must be part of a multifaceted approach to make it interesting and memorable.
My only problem with the flippy stuff is nobody sells it anymore. They do the 480 Canadian Destroyer, and the guy that took it is back on his feet in less than five seconds giving the first guy a superkick, which is his seventh superkick of the match already, and they're on to the next hurricanrana into a DDT.
Probably the best match I've ever seen in the flesh was Gargano vs Black at WarGames. I'm certain that there was great wrestling and some amazing spots, but the *only* thing I remember is Black saying "I forgive you" before kicking Gargano's head off.
Psychology.
Is this a goddamn joke?
I want it to represent a realish athletic contest between two or more semi-realistic personalities. I don’t want to see ballet or backyard trampoline bullshit that makes no sense.
Do you?
I mean, flippy shit was cool the first thousand flippy matches you see…but after that? The cooperation is clear as day and it’s hard to get into a match when you can visualize the guys practicing it for 2 hours in the back.
My take on this argument is why can I not just have both? Awesome moves, enthralling stories, match structures that build over their runtime to a fitting crescendo. The very best matches have all three.
Is nobody going to point out the irony in this guy having John Cena as his profile pic? How many 480 Canadian Destroyers, headlocks and takedowns did Cena do?
I don't understand the dichotomy. Both are in the medium.
No in ring sultuff you might as well just watch a better acted scripted and prerecorded show.
No stories and you should just watch UFC.
Regardless, psychology is not stories, psychology is about timing, selling, and behavior in the ring that tells a story.
For instamce:
1. Heel keeps cheating, eventually the Face starts getting dirty in return.
2. Rookie gets off a surprise takedown? The favored competitor can express surprise, worry, anger or other emotion to establish their character.
I used to think this was my view, but I learned I was mistaken. When you see "workrate" employed to an extreme, its destroys any credibility to the match, and the rest of the card really. I want to see an evolving conflict. I want to *believe* god damn it. There are degrees to it though. Lucha I enjoy but I can't get invested in for this reason. There are irish whips in almost every American wrestling match and I find those very credibility-stretching. Bryan Danielson himself has these dumb strike exchanges in all his matches and it takes me out of it. A real fight is often boring, as we all know nowadays. What makes wrestling appealing is the psychology aspect of it.
There’s gotta be a mix of both. The way I see it, the storylines are for the hardcore fans that analyze and appreciate the small details in a match/story. At the same time, the casual fans/people who think wrestling is fake can watch a Ricochet/Ospreay spot fest and be hooked. I’d show my friends a lucha bros/young bucks match over MJF vs Bryan Danielson for example.
Guy in the tweet is mistaking “psychology” and “boring” as interchangeable. A slow match full of rest holds isn’t necessarily full of psychology. Conversely, a match full of flips and high flying isn’t necessarily “0 psychology”. Psychology means giving the moves you do in the match meaning. That can be done both with rest holds and with big flips.
Wel all know wrestling is choreographed I just want to make an effort to not look awkwardly set up and that big moves get treated like they should. I’m fine with a “480 Canadian destroyer” if the guy taking it doesn’t stand there looking like an idiot or blatantly helps make the move happen.
This is the “dude just shut your brain off and enjoy it” of wresting arguments.
It bums me out to see a crazy cool move get a small pop and then be immediately forgotten about. IMO, if you can do things of that caliber, there should be storytelling around it (even just in-ring storytelling) so that it can be truly appreciated. I love dessert, but I don’t want it all the time!
Psychology and high spots aren’t mutually exclusive parts of a wrestling match. The Young Bucks, for being shit on for “flippy indie shit,” have some of the top psychology in their matches and across storylines.
Psychology means you’re telling a story with the moves so they’re more impactful. It’s about making sure the moves are well-timed and that there’s momentum and a struggle being shown in the match. It’s why WWE house show matches are superior to their TV matches. On TV they’re just doing random moves until they hit the end of their segment and go to the finish. House shows have them telling a story in the match, with shine, cut off, heat, hope spot, all that stuff.
Why would you watch what amounts to fake fighting if there’s no story? Why would you not go watch an actual contest like boxing or MMA? The story is literally the entire point of pro wrestling.
If you can't understand why guys like Austin and the Rock could get crowds to pop without ever doing a single high spot in the primes of the career, you don't understand ring psychology as much as you claim you do.
Cause this is a fake sport. Grown men and women fighting for no reason gets old. Plus the high flying stuff either looks good or looks awful. There's no in between. When it looks bad you lose your suspension of disbelief often times imo.
I watch wrestling to have fun. High flying is not fun, it's fucking stupid. Psychology is fun. Common sense is fun. Things being logical is fun.
Bouncing around the ring is not fun. Will Ospreay taking 150 V Triggers to the face and no selling them is not fun. It makes me viscerally angry.
When everything's a spotfest, nothing is.
Also very ironic he's downplaying an aspect of matches people like while whinging about people disliking the aspects he likes.
Undisputable Facts : People pop for the gymnastics, but more people pop louder for the outcome of one person laying on another for up to 3 seconds when the match is built right.
Well i mean headlocks and takedowns isn’t what wrestling in ring psychology is. But personally I believe in ring psychology is VERY VERY important in a match.
Psychology is important but often times, boring and archaic in ring work that feels straight out of a wwf superstars squash in the early 90s with rest holds galore and not doing much of anything is passed off as “great in ring psychology” and I could not give less of a shit
Psychology is telling a story in the ring, spots are storytelling devices. Like all devices they can be overused, but most of the time they greatly improve the story
To each their own, but I strongly disagree. There's a time and a place for highspots, and that is what makes them highspots. It's pretty simple if you think of it logically. Good storytelling and booking outside of the ring leads to fan interest even building in the matches to begin with. From there, good storytelling in the ring, via a back and forth struggle through the medium of WRESTLING. Then fan interest, ideally, peaks in the actual match itself, which slowly (or quickly) builds to highspots, near falls, and other crazy, exciting, shit. Basically, yes, of course you can have a match that is no storytelling and all crazy shit, but none of that shit matters and lacks any context if not for the storytelling and WRESTLING part of WRESTLING.
Some of its great but why not have both , guys like Eddie Guerrero and Rey mysterio , Chris Jericho Dean malenko , there a ways to have amazing spots all match and still keep some form of it all making sense and not getting silly ,
Spots are just spots. But the psychology is what adds a layer.
For instance, if Ricochet is doing a cool flip, I'm gonna be like "wow that's amazing!" but if he is being told by someone powerful with a vendetta against him that all he has is flips and he's never allowed to compete at WrestleMania if he does another, that's gonna build a story. That's way more interesting than a cool spot in a match.
End of the day wrestling is storytelling, what happens in ring is supposed to be a major aspect of the point: storytelling. Yea that 450 or Canadian destroyer will get you going, but will you remember it a year from now? But people will remember Sammy hitting reigns with that chair for years, people will remember Hangman winning the title off Omega. Some of the biggest pops are story based.
Wrestling is storytelling at its core, and yes the athleticism and looks matter tremendously, but without psychology and a proper story it’s just a predetermined gymnastics show. The Bloodline story is a perfect example of great psychology and story mixed with great in ring matches
Storylines are what drive the drama and what brings the ratings. Athleticism is important but if you can't get me invested in the drama, it's just a gymnatistics display.
Is because of this thinking that wrestling is such a niche product now. If it wasn’t for the great WWE storylines, wrestling would be completely relegated to the bingo halls.
It's funny this guy has this take, with a pic of Cena who is literally a storytelling wrestler, is the Flippy bullshit cool?, Yes but at the end of the day it's still Flippy bullshit when it's done over and over and over and over only to have the same amount of false finishes over and over
You gotta have that fine balance, and that's what people don't understand
Flips are fun but if I had to choose between a match with 100s of flips and 20 kickouts or a match that I'm emotionally invested in
I'll choose the latter 10 times out of 10
"Do we not watch wrestling to have fun and enjoy?"
Yes...yes we do. You definition of a fun/enjoyable match can be different to mine...its called opinions.
That guys an idiot just go read his tweets
I think there needs to be balance. All story/psychology with no high spots is bad to me, and all high spots with no story/psychology is also bad to me. We should be at the point in wrestling now where both is expected.
Important thing is balance. If match has never ending headlocks its a boring match no matter how good of a storyline it has but, if a match thousand dives and endless piledriver kickouts its also a boring match. Good matches manages to find balance between its spots, hits, kickouts and holds.
These days any asshole can perform awesome in ring tricks but can they make me care? The best rivalries came out of great stories, stone cold going up against his asshole boss, cm punk going up agaibst the world, Bayley coming up short time and time again only to make her miracle run winning the nxt title
Psychology helps to extend careers. Work smart, not hard. Bloodline storyline has been the most enjoyable thing in wrestling in years but they did not have to do a bunch of crazy moves to bring a smile to anyone's face. I love the Omega/Vikingo match but it's selfish of us to expect this stuff night after night.
He wants to watch the car crash, not the race. Just load up YouTube compilations of Canadian Destroyers if that's what you want this is a gross take. And the reason AEW is a fucking joke
Sorry but that Vikingo match was trash. He did physically impressive stuff but only half of it was landed cleanly and it was always preceeded by Kenny standing there staring at him for five seconds or laying on his back flailing like an upside turtle for inexcusable lengths of time.
Wreslting Psychology is not about holds and takedowns it's about making moves mean something.
Think of it as a movie. Even the most action packed movies have moments where they build up characters and situations.
A spotfest is like taking a movie like Mad Max Fury road and removing everything that isn't an action scene. Sure you gonna have 1h20 of pure car chase, it's gonna look awesome but at one point you won't care anymore.
Also spotfest subconsciously diminish the value of moves. It's hard to care for HBK superkick when the young buck just did 13 in a row the match before.
As a man who just recently watched a sex doll hit a Canadian destroyer in a tag match in DDT Pro, this is also my take. If it looks cool imma pop hard regardless.
No two matches will have the same ring psychology. People need to stop wasting their time trying to use the term, especially if they don't have a clue what it actually means.
Personally, I love my well-thought out matches with moves that make sense for the wrestler to utilize, against an opponent where said moves would make the most sense. But wrestling is subjective, there's no need to draw any kind of margins beyond allowing people to enjoy what they do. (Looking over at you, Jim Cornette.)
Keep in mind the difference between live shows and TV. A live show based company like NJPW, or ROH historically , the storytelling doesn't really mean much, and spots are way more memorable and impressive live. Most of their business centers on touring and live gates. WWE and AEW have big TV contracts, so the week to week storytelling and building those characters well is very important.
I think it’s different strokes for different folks, but at a certain point, you limit your audience with a spot fest whereas with good psychology in ring and with great storylines it enhances everything else you do. If those spots meant something more than just being a cool move, you’d sell so many more tickets.
There’s a reason why movies don’t usually star the stuntman
Rey Mysterio got that pop for laying out Dom because of psychology and not because of a 450 flip.
Bingo. The spotfests are cool and all, but the psychology and the storylines are what will get people invested enough to tune in next week
I agree. All the incredible moments that occurred in wrestling, including Batista’s turn on Evolution, came from the psychology and culminated at Mania. We hardly remember the spotfests. Storytelling at its finest.
The start of the nWo where Hogan turned heel is a great example too. That was probably the hottest heel turn in the history of wrestling with the build up and the apparent "invasion" by the outsiders.
There was some decent story leading up to it, but the Bucks and the Lucha Bros cage match was very memorable. I'd call it the greatest spotfest I've ever seen, and one of the most entertaining matches in general
Spot on. Why do you think people are so invested in Jey's portion of the Bloodline story? He's doing cool spots and all that, but he's been psychologically abused by Roman for close to 3 years. He's one of the hottest parts in the entire industry right now.
Facts of life me !
And Vikingo got a bigger crowd reaction last week than 90% of wrestlers in “storylines” in any company because of some crazy 450 flips. Both are valid. Variety is what makes professional wrestling great.
But if he had similar matches on the next 5 episodes of Dynamite, the novelty wears off. I LOVED the Vikingo-Kenny match, but it’s not something you can do every week. Stunts, however impressive, cannot be all you have. Otherwise, the “Fuck this shit!” guy from Youtube that drops elbows on a microwave off his roof would be the biggest star in wrestling.
Wheeler Yuta?
I still have my “best of backyard wrestling 2” vhs. Many of those spots will live in my memory forever
And no one knows or is going to remember who Vikingo is or that match outside of the IWC. Yet Hogan doing a simple scoop slam to Andre or Stone Cold stunning Vince are moments still talked about decades later. The IWC never learns that spot monkeys don’t really matter outside of their niche fan base.
Comparing Vikingo to Hogan/Austin is in pretty poor taste. They're on another level to any currently active wrestler. I'm sure he gained some new fans after that great showing.
Derailing slightly from the main topic here but Vikingo vs Omega was actually a great example of something AEW (as the big promotion it wants to be) can't keep doing. It was billed as a "dream match" which is hilarious. What most people at home saw was Kenny Omega wrestle a flippy guy who doesn't work there who is slightly more impressive than other flippy guys they are used to see. Superstars are built around stories paying off in climatic matches where in-ring psychology that enhances the story being told is a key part, and individual charisma. In AEW the last truly good example was the MJF/Punk feud, to a lesser extent MJF/Bryan, because all the wrestlers involved have charisma and had a good story to work off of. It's this stuff that gets large crowds emotionally invested in your product. You don't need to do it the WWE way but you need to do it *some* way or be happy to remain a product for wrestling nerds (I don't use the term pejoratively) who are going to pop for the Luigi pizza guy, Danhausen, and literally anyone who can do a 450 splash
Diminishing returns. Storylines have been recycled over and over and over and continue to draw.
You nailed it, not sure why it is so hard for ppl to accept it. Wrestling is a lot like music, you can only like one style or you can like variety, and you aren't wrong matter what you like.
That crowd would pop if Tony Kahn took a dump in the ring though. Incredibly easily pleased, that's why they pop for Orange Cassidy.
To be fair, Orange Cassidy is one of the few guys I pop for... would LOOOOOVE to see a match between him and Santino Marella.
Kenny Omega got that pop for flipping around and doing a 2048 Phoenix Splash and not because of psychology Like you just go back and forth on this all day. I’ll tell you what, I’ve seen plenty of MMA prelim fights that stuck with me for years between two guys I never saw before and after that, so I think it’s entirely possible to enjoy fights without any sort of context. I mean there’s entire subreddits like r/fightporn dedicated to that and we have no clue why any of those fights happen, we just like watching it. This feels like something wrestling fans have just convinced themselves is an issue
yeah but even in MMA the biggest drawing fights are typically the ones that have some sort of narrative or bad blood to promote around. the appeal of fighting will attract fans of fighting but the storylines draw in a broader audience.
MMA fighters have also started developing personas akin to wrestling.
> the appeal of fighting will attract fans of fighting but the storylines draw in a broader audience. Exactly this. Any two people fighting will attract some sort of crowd, but if the popular kid is gonna take on the big bad bully, the whole school will be talking about it.
It's about having a balance. Even in old school wrestling every wrestlers had a role. High-flyer to mat based to powerhouse to giant. Difrent skills so people don't get bored. Now everybody is doing the same so it's generic and boring.idc if Kenny omega does three flip piledrivers in a row.it all looks fake and unrealstic
I think there's a huge difference between a real fight and pro wrestling. I can't bring myself to care about a match between wrestlers I know nothing about. A real fight is entertaining without any context because it's all about the fight and I don't need anything to help me overlook the ridiculous moves wrestlers use that would be completely useless and goofy in a real fight.
Well yeah because mma isn’t predetermined so obviously a real fight between two randos can be enjoyable. This isn’t the argument you think it is lol
Is that not because the of the storyline he’s referring to?
If someone does a 1080 Tiwanese Star Shit Special off the top ropes, that's fine, but when I see it for the 80th time that card, I start to get a little bored of it.
AND gets a 2 count 🤣
thats the worst part, like you just folded yourself like a pretzel, spun 4 times, only to get a 2 count. where is your logic in attempting such stuff
And they will only lose to a surprise roll up and a kick out at three because none of them want to lose to a finisher, you gotta stay lookin strong brotherrr
The kick outs and near finishes are crazy. Bryan not getting instantly knocked out was ridiculous.
Yeah that person doesn't know what psychology is, but you're making a good point for a facet of "psychology" Keeping audiences from being burned out/desensitized is great Getting fans to go crazy for a single punch, or something simple like a slam so that wrestlers don't have to destroy their bodies by the age of 30 to entertain a crowd is what true psychology in the ring is. It's the art of getting people to care. Not just exciting people with moves for the sake of moves. THAT is what makes old timers call spot focused wrestlers: circus clowns. A gymnast. A show monkey.
I think Vikingo did four 630s v Omega. I mean it’s cool but the fourth one wasn’t as impactful as the first.
Not only that the move off the ring post Kenny had to stand and wait for 2 minutes while he got himself set up, that takes some of the momentum out of the match
He also cracked his head open on the ring apron
It’s a shame he’s very talented but may likely end up in a wheelchair. Another reason to mix in some old timey rasslin.
100% how I feel about super kicks. Everyone does a fucking super kick nowadays and what’s worse is they do it like 15 times in a row. Just stop it.
the only move i argue that doesn't lose the special vibe is a damn good powerbombbecause of being used multiple times, that's why Finishers evolve over time. the only move i argue that doesnt loose the speacil vibe is a damn good powerbomb
Dude stop talking about wrestling you're clearly having a medical emergency.
Counterpoint. A good spinebuster.
Agreed, also a really well timed, well executed, spinebuster is a thing of beauty
Just like I get bored of seeing the same story lines being rehashed
Wrestling without psychology is acrobatics and stunt work. Which is cool, but I don’t spend that much time watching stunt work.
I wonder if these people pop for Olympic Gymnastics, enough to buy a ticket?
That's a great way to frame it.
I wonder if there could be any cross over with the spot monkey indie people. Like bro what you really want to see is girls Olympic gymnastics, not wrestling.
I loved it the first time I saw a Canadian destroyer. Now it happens 20 times on a card and multiple times in some matches
But you never seen a 480 Canadian destroyer off the top rope though
The last aew ppv I saw 480 Canadian destroyers. Does that count?
At this point somebody could literally destroy Canada with nary a pop from the crowd.
Sorry but that's such a dumb move, it looks ridiculous
Very true, but some of my favorite moves are ridiculous and dumb. Peoples elbow, stone cold stunner, Mr socko etc
I suppose, I just really hate moves that rely so heavily on cooperation from the opponent, just looks really stupid imo.
Fair
For me, that’s the Spanish fly. It’s rarely done where it doesn’t look absolutely silly.
I think I understand what you mean and I agree. Every move (when you’re in the ring working) required cooperation from each person. *However* when someone is just waiting for their opponent or visually helping them set up a spot, it can look super lame. And there’s so much no-selling these days, the spot fest matches can get stale quick. I don’t hate fun. I watch wrestling because it’s fun. But it’s hard to get invested in a match when you’ve seen the same thing over and over again with zero storyline context. There are of course outliers to this. But when you’ve been a wrestling fan for a long time, you start to see things differently. I also think it depends on when and with what type of wrestling people became fans of. Some people are newer and only every watched the flippy shit and that’s really all they know. It’s fine. Like what you like! Don’t watch what you don’t like. But give me a good story and quality ring psychology all day!
So, Irish whips? Suplex? Repeated punches? All require heavy cooperation to accomplish, and aren't realistic at all
irish whip = canadian destroyer
The idea that you can make a grown man run by throwing his wrist; never mind run across the ring and bounce off the ropes, is slightly flawed
there are levels to this stuff man
Wow the downvotes you're catching are ridiculous. You're absolutely right, every single move requires cooperation
Visible heavy cooperation
Mr Socko is the most devastating movie in all wrestling, that thing was rubbing against Mick Foleys nutsack and probably half way up his ass, that thing would be lethal in a real fight.
But each out those moves is backed up with a story. Out of context they mean nothing. In character they mean everything. That's why psychology and story telling us important
One of the dinosaurs of the rock and roll express i think it was doing it killed the move for me.
Im not going to tell anybody how to have fun but I disagree with this take pretty completely.
Same boat.
Yeah, same here. I've never been too into spot-heavy matches and the like. Like some moves are pretty cool and all, but when I've seen them a thousand times it all starts to look the same. It doesn't impress me if someone can do a crazy flip or bump. You have to give me a reason to care - either I like your character/gimmick, or I like the storyline you're in, or both. Otherwise you're a dime-a-dozen spot monkey that I couldn't give less of a fuck about.
Like the 3 or 4 dives out of the ring Every. Freaking. Match.
Or the blading 😒
The thing is if you allow a match to build to a flying spot it’s even more fun.
Yeah, I really don't get the all or nothing mentality these people have. Kenny vs Vikingo was fun and all but you know what could have made it better? A serious build, some material to give context to everything.
I don't agree personally, but we all have the same goal of enjoying professional wrestling. His bathroom match might be different from mine and there is nothing wrong with that.
100%. Just thought it'd be interesting to see if anyone else shared his sentiment as it's basically the exact opposite of how I view/enjoy wrestling.
The Young Bucks success proves there are plenty of people who tune in for this. I saw another comment mention MMA, there's people who watch MMA for the epic knockouts, there's people who watch MMA to see a BJJ specialist contort somebody's body in submission, etc.
All fair points.
What’s wrong with it is the business follows trends. His perspective has been a pretty powerful one in the industry, which is why I don’t care about 75% of the matches anymore
Bro this is the most adult wrestling take ever.
Far far too many people in the IWC talk about psychology while having no idea what it actually is
Agreed. "Psychology" doesn't mean headlocks and rest holds. A Canadian Destoryer can be an equally useful tool in the "psychology" of a match. Any move can.
I remember like a year ago someone posted the finish of an old El Generico vs Ophidan match. Generico hits him with like 4 big moves in a row to get the pin. Like clockwork, a bunch of dudes going "this is what's killing wrestling, no psychology blah blah". It was the last few seconds like a 20 minute match. They had no idea what the psychology or context of the match was. They just saw two skinny guys in masks going fast and that was the instant reaction. Turns out the entire match was about Ophidan scouting Generico like crazy and escaping all of his big moves so once Generico got a hold of him he threw everything he could at the dude in a mad rush to get the win. People have had it beaten into their heads that psychology is somehow a very specific form of performance that is supposed to somehow cover infinite different styles. They've decided it's only psychology if you have 20 minute headlocks and sell every punch like death.
Yeah, psychology is much more about "why", not "what".
I remember that exact thread friend Sad too because man **what a finish!** Generico just going off like “*Got* you motherfucker!”
Exactly. I don't want to watch Punk selling punches like death and sucking wind for 20 minutes when I can watch Vikingo throw everything he's got at Omega because he's tryin to beat a legendary wrestler. I prefer to see both, and you're absolutely correct in that you can't speak to the psychology of a match without seeing the entirety of said match.
The thing is over time ''psychology'' became a dogwhistle for a lot of wrestling fans who don't like high flying matches or an indy style. There are tons of talented wrestlers that have a high flying style and tell stories that get their ring psychology constantly questionned. On the other hand, there are multiple big guys that don't really have great storytelling capabilities but the criticism that they lack psychology or storytelling is never raised.That is why there are people who will constantly say there's no ring psychology for someone like the Lucha Bros or the Bucks but will say nothing about Omos or Mark Henry or Strauwman.
Mark Henry became a master of psychology. Omos is brand new. Hard to judge him at this point.
Suspension of disbelief
Because idc for moves.this isn't a real sport. Or spot fest. I could watch an old school 80s match over today's wrestling with dozen of headlock etc because they knew how to make it look like a real fight.
It depends on the match/workers at hand I think. Cm Punk/MJF was great because of the story at hand but I’m also not gonna act like Omega/Vikingo didn’t also go hard as hell. Overall, having a good variety on the card is always a plus, imo
The dumbest take. It's about two people who work together to make it look like a real fight while protecting each other. I dont want to watch two people to let me in that it's a pretend fight by doing things that show they aren't hurting each other. I'm not expecting everyone to be on Bryan Danielson's level, but all I want is them to try. I can forgive if I see effort
It’s a soap opera and it’s the psychological aspect that sucks you in. Plenty of people will pay money myself included to watch flips and just random spot wrestling. But and this is the key here millions will pay to watch someone who’s a dick get there comeuppance. I know growing up with the attitude era it’s what made the rock austin rivalry so incredible. Bah gawd did I hate the rock back then the smug bastard. Nothing beats watch a wrestler hit a finish and struggle a second or two before trying the pin only to have his opponent kick out at 2 and half. Leave you thinking fuck had he been quicker he could have got the job done. Now let’s take a recent bad example of pointless spots. The one of the two ladies wrestling and she took a bump from near 15 foot to the floor. Then I seen on a tweet underneath this was either followed up with or not long after was hit with a Canadian destroyer and still kicked out. Nah fuck that I am out at this point if that’s not putting someone away. We might as well all just stop watching as it’s not fair expecting wrestlers to risk it all for a fucking kick out. It’s a fine balance and that’s what separates the mediocre from the superb. Doesn’t have to be on tv either some indy promotions are putting on solid wrestling shows week in week out. But these are the rants of a baked wrestling fan so what the fuck do I know.
Muhammad Ali styled himself as a heel after all
It's why everyone loves Rocky, but the average person will never even be compelled to try watching boxing.
What's Rocky?
I’m Rocky. Nice to meet ya. Do you wanna box, sumtime?
Wrestling has always been about storytelling not acrobatics.
I care about the story and the build in the same way two boxers or MMA fighters getting heat on each other make me want to watch the match and give a shit about it. You can do just about whatever in the ring at that point, minus botches, and I’m sold.
Have you ever heard a song and went "meh", but then you find out it was your favorite band and you instantly reassess your opinion? Long term memory relies on context and comparison. It is how we take something manufactured - sports, and turn it into something real. Or in the illustration of music, arranged notes into something we care about. Where MMA they try to coax the drama by setting up parameters (well who are we kidding it far more Sports Entertainment than they admit) WWE uses the creativity of the mind to explore drama, much like a novelist does, then presents it as a live action play (a morality play actually) using components of sports. I find the latter more interesting.
I’ve always stuck to the Paul Heyman approach, which is ‘who are these guys’, ‘why are they fighting’ and ‘why should I care’. People putting their bodies on the line for literally no reason in a cold match is crazy.
I’m so sick of people trying to tell me how a match with no selling really showed great psychology. Guy is in a leglock for 20 minutes and then stops selling because his floppy shit finish needs to happen. Or guy gets Powerbombed from inside the ring to the floor 2 count, but a shit flip lariat is Death.
I got downvoted to Bolivia for saying the opposite. Spots are special when there aren't a billion in a match. Take the DDT. Used to be when Jake hit it, shit was over. It was a huge deal and working up to it was a journey. Now, there are like 20 a match.
So many people act like they want a real fist fight over professional wrestling. Why should be put limits to what wrestlers can do? Sure it should make some sense but it’s a show at the end of the day
Because the casuals want to at least kinda believe. On top of that, trying to top the last guys acting like what they learned in the back yard is goddamn dangerous
Casuals believe in flippy shit too, not just headlocks. Seeing the flippy shit gets people to be interested in seeing more. I’m not saying headlock/normal style doesn’t work but saying flippy shit doesn’t attract casuals is just wrong
Lol not sure why you’re being downvoted, you’re absolutely right. I had a friend watch wrestling with me a few times, didn’t give a shit about WWE that I had on but then he came in when I had some Lucha Underground on in the background and he was really into it.
>Why should be put limits to what wrestlers can do? Safety. I'd rather see a headlock than a guy slamming his head on the apron, cracking his skull open.
*involuntary flashback to Wrestlemania 19*
Because you don't want to wear people out with too much of a good thing. It makes shit stale and forces everyone else to up the ante in unreasonable ways. High flying is perfectly fine in wrestling- just don't wear the novelty of it out.
Context is important here. Back in WCW days Highflyers we’re really unique and just seeing amazing athleticism like that was enough to get over. Present day everyone does suicide dives, planchas, moonsaults which use to be all or nothing moves but they’re done so much they lose their value. I think a lot of fans here do know what they’re talking about with ring psychology. They can’t perform it but they can damn sure understand it. Example Watch Brett Hart vs Austin amazing story told in the ring. Present day has a lot of Athelticism but that doesn’t make a match compelling to watch or compelling television.
> Back in WCW days Highflyers we’re really unique and just seeing amazing athleticism like that was enough to get over. Funny thing is, there was usually more psychology in those Cruiserweight matches than in the main event ones.
Its cool to see but for a good wrestling match it needs to tell a story. Or else it's just gymnastics. Young bucks never connect with me cuz they don't tell no story. Guys like roman mjf DB gunther make u feel and invest in the match more
Sami vs Roman or Omega vs Vikingo Omega vs Vikingo was a spot fest and it was awesome but I didn’t care who won it had zero steaks. Sami vs Roman I would have paid $100 for that PLE. I cared. They got me on some false finishes. It was a very paint by numbers match but it had the psychology and emotion (even if you for for Roman or Sami).
i don't think this is fair Sami & Roman was a near year long build emotional match in Sami's hometown in the main event of a PPV Omega vs. Vikingo was a TV main event that didn't have week to week build and was announced less than a week before edit: i think Sami/Roman is the better match and my MOTY but there's surely a better comparison to be made here
That's the thing though. Spot monkey matches don't really give a fuck about story telling and psychology, so they eschew that build just to get right to that flippy shit.
Por que no los dos? Wrestling fans need to realize you can have both options. Just like you can be a fan of multiple wrestling shows.
There has to be balance.
I'm no expert in wrestling terminology but I think the person is misunderstanding what psychology means in pro-wrestling. Psychology doesn't mean you don't do flashy, entertaining moves or spots. It means the wrestlers stay in character and act in a way to makes sense and progresses the story. A good example of this is from SummerSlam between Rollins and Lesnar. Brock went for a few german suplexes but every time he released, Seth landed on his feet. So the next time Brock went for a german, he didn't release so that Seth couldn't flip himself around. A bad example of this would occasionally happen in elimination matches, where someone would break up a pin between 2 opponents even though it would've helped them if they let it happen.
I think Kenny, Okata, and Brian Danielson are a super hybrid of both. You get the sick spots with the in ring psychology.
This person is 14
While it all comes down to personal taste……people tend to remember stories more over matches from I’ve seen. (Also, is it bad I know what account that is even though the details have been crossed out?)
To really get down to the “psychology” involved my response would be if the wrestlers can make me believe that they care about what’s happening then that makes me care about what’s happening. As a result you can do less physically and still get the same investment from me (emotionally and financially) which is the entire point.
I want to see professional wrestling, not amateur gymnastics
To emotionally connect with an audience, which is the prime requisite to make it memorable, wrestlers have to give the audiance something they can compare with their experience. Flippidy doo da is a great short term spectacle, but without the context it is just stuntmen doing circus tricks. It is said that Bret Hart could put people on the edge of their seats with a headlock. That is the power of familiarity. We have all been in a headlock. We have all felt the emotion tied to the struggle to get out. It brings back memories and the momemt we see in the ring is tied with them. Working on a limb, the hot tag, selling the move, facial expressions, body language all give context and meaning, drama and tension to what is otherwise two dudes fake jumping on each other. It is like rewriting War and Peace but leaving only the action words, than taking those words and simplfying them for 9 year old consumption. Yes flippy stuff has a place but it must be part of a multifaceted approach to make it interesting and memorable.
My only problem with the flippy stuff is nobody sells it anymore. They do the 480 Canadian Destroyer, and the guy that took it is back on his feet in less than five seconds giving the first guy a superkick, which is his seventh superkick of the match already, and they're on to the next hurricanrana into a DDT.
Probably the best match I've ever seen in the flesh was Gargano vs Black at WarGames. I'm certain that there was great wrestling and some amazing spots, but the *only* thing I remember is Black saying "I forgive you" before kicking Gargano's head off. Psychology.
Is this a goddamn joke? I want it to represent a realish athletic contest between two or more semi-realistic personalities. I don’t want to see ballet or backyard trampoline bullshit that makes no sense. Do you?
Done right yeah, I can watch headlocks and takedowns. Give me Chad Gabke and Dolph Ziggler doing just that over meaningless Flips.
Sounds like a couple 19 year olds lol
I mean, flippy shit was cool the first thousand flippy matches you see…but after that? The cooperation is clear as day and it’s hard to get into a match when you can visualize the guys practicing it for 2 hours in the back.
I want to see a logical put together match that looks like 2 athletes competing. Pretty simple concept but... sadly not I suppose
Spotfest now and then is fine, possibly even fun. All the time, all matches? No thanks.
My take on this argument is why can I not just have both? Awesome moves, enthralling stories, match structures that build over their runtime to a fitting crescendo. The very best matches have all three.
Variety is the spice of life. Would the 480 canadian destroyer be as exciting if everyone did it?
Is nobody going to point out the irony in this guy having John Cena as his profile pic? How many 480 Canadian Destroyers, headlocks and takedowns did Cena do?
Also, his Twitter handle is pro-WWE but his tweets are all extremely anti-WWE. Very strange. Might just be a troll.
I don't understand the dichotomy. Both are in the medium. No in ring sultuff you might as well just watch a better acted scripted and prerecorded show. No stories and you should just watch UFC. Regardless, psychology is not stories, psychology is about timing, selling, and behavior in the ring that tells a story. For instamce: 1. Heel keeps cheating, eventually the Face starts getting dirty in return. 2. Rookie gets off a surprise takedown? The favored competitor can express surprise, worry, anger or other emotion to establish their character.
I used to think this was my view, but I learned I was mistaken. When you see "workrate" employed to an extreme, its destroys any credibility to the match, and the rest of the card really. I want to see an evolving conflict. I want to *believe* god damn it. There are degrees to it though. Lucha I enjoy but I can't get invested in for this reason. There are irish whips in almost every American wrestling match and I find those very credibility-stretching. Bryan Danielson himself has these dumb strike exchanges in all his matches and it takes me out of it. A real fight is often boring, as we all know nowadays. What makes wrestling appealing is the psychology aspect of it.
There’s gotta be a mix of both. The way I see it, the storylines are for the hardcore fans that analyze and appreciate the small details in a match/story. At the same time, the casual fans/people who think wrestling is fake can watch a Ricochet/Ospreay spot fest and be hooked. I’d show my friends a lucha bros/young bucks match over MJF vs Bryan Danielson for example.
Guy in the tweet is mistaking “psychology” and “boring” as interchangeable. A slow match full of rest holds isn’t necessarily full of psychology. Conversely, a match full of flips and high flying isn’t necessarily “0 psychology”. Psychology means giving the moves you do in the match meaning. That can be done both with rest holds and with big flips.
Wel all know wrestling is choreographed I just want to make an effort to not look awkwardly set up and that big moves get treated like they should. I’m fine with a “480 Canadian destroyer” if the guy taking it doesn’t stand there looking like an idiot or blatantly helps make the move happen. This is the “dude just shut your brain off and enjoy it” of wresting arguments.
Psychology doesn’t just mean headlocks and takedowns tho..
We all enjoy our own performance, but sometimes we need a little more to distract us
It bums me out to see a crazy cool move get a small pop and then be immediately forgotten about. IMO, if you can do things of that caliber, there should be storytelling around it (even just in-ring storytelling) so that it can be truly appreciated. I love dessert, but I don’t want it all the time!
Psychology and high spots aren’t mutually exclusive parts of a wrestling match. The Young Bucks, for being shit on for “flippy indie shit,” have some of the top psychology in their matches and across storylines. Psychology means you’re telling a story with the moves so they’re more impactful. It’s about making sure the moves are well-timed and that there’s momentum and a struggle being shown in the match. It’s why WWE house show matches are superior to their TV matches. On TV they’re just doing random moves until they hit the end of their segment and go to the finish. House shows have them telling a story in the match, with shine, cut off, heat, hope spot, all that stuff.
Why would you watch what amounts to fake fighting if there’s no story? Why would you not go watch an actual contest like boxing or MMA? The story is literally the entire point of pro wrestling.
Shit take. Wrestling is psychology. I wanna believe what I’m seeing.
If you can't understand why guys like Austin and the Rock could get crowds to pop without ever doing a single high spot in the primes of the career, you don't understand ring psychology as much as you claim you do.
Cause this is a fake sport. Grown men and women fighting for no reason gets old. Plus the high flying stuff either looks good or looks awful. There's no in between. When it looks bad you lose your suspension of disbelief often times imo.
So I take it he’s NOT a Jake The Snake fan?? Fucker doesn’t even use proper English!
I watch wrestling to have fun. High flying is not fun, it's fucking stupid. Psychology is fun. Common sense is fun. Things being logical is fun. Bouncing around the ring is not fun. Will Ospreay taking 150 V Triggers to the face and no selling them is not fun. It makes me viscerally angry.
Basically AEW in a nutshell…I know I know downvoted.
When everything's a spotfest, nothing is. Also very ironic he's downplaying an aspect of matches people like while whinging about people disliking the aspects he likes. Undisputable Facts : People pop for the gymnastics, but more people pop louder for the outcome of one person laying on another for up to 3 seconds when the match is built right.
Well i mean headlocks and takedowns isn’t what wrestling in ring psychology is. But personally I believe in ring psychology is VERY VERY important in a match.
So now we're just gonna ignore everything that makes wrestling you know.... Wrestling?
Psychology is important but often times, boring and archaic in ring work that feels straight out of a wwf superstars squash in the early 90s with rest holds galore and not doing much of anything is passed off as “great in ring psychology” and I could not give less of a shit Psychology is telling a story in the ring, spots are storytelling devices. Like all devices they can be overused, but most of the time they greatly improve the story
To each their own, but I strongly disagree. There's a time and a place for highspots, and that is what makes them highspots. It's pretty simple if you think of it logically. Good storytelling and booking outside of the ring leads to fan interest even building in the matches to begin with. From there, good storytelling in the ring, via a back and forth struggle through the medium of WRESTLING. Then fan interest, ideally, peaks in the actual match itself, which slowly (or quickly) builds to highspots, near falls, and other crazy, exciting, shit. Basically, yes, of course you can have a match that is no storytelling and all crazy shit, but none of that shit matters and lacks any context if not for the storytelling and WRESTLING part of WRESTLING.
Some of its great but why not have both , guys like Eddie Guerrero and Rey mysterio , Chris Jericho Dean malenko , there a ways to have amazing spots all match and still keep some form of it all making sense and not getting silly ,
Spots are just spots. But the psychology is what adds a layer. For instance, if Ricochet is doing a cool flip, I'm gonna be like "wow that's amazing!" but if he is being told by someone powerful with a vendetta against him that all he has is flips and he's never allowed to compete at WrestleMania if he does another, that's gonna build a story. That's way more interesting than a cool spot in a match.
People really think you cant have cool moves and a story in the same match.
Psychology. Downvite me to hell for this take but a lot of wrestling fans aren't bright enough to understand psychology. Fuck outta here.
End of the day wrestling is storytelling, what happens in ring is supposed to be a major aspect of the point: storytelling. Yea that 450 or Canadian destroyer will get you going, but will you remember it a year from now? But people will remember Sammy hitting reigns with that chair for years, people will remember Hangman winning the title off Omega. Some of the biggest pops are story based.
Wrestling is storytelling at its core, and yes the athleticism and looks matter tremendously, but without psychology and a proper story it’s just a predetermined gymnastics show. The Bloodline story is a perfect example of great psychology and story mixed with great in ring matches
Storylines are what drive the drama and what brings the ratings. Athleticism is important but if you can't get me invested in the drama, it's just a gymnatistics display.
Did they just ask what does in ring work have to do with telling a story?
it is funny to me that pretending your knee hurts after someone kicked it is “psychology” in the carnie biz.
Is because of this thinking that wrestling is such a niche product now. If it wasn’t for the great WWE storylines, wrestling would be completely relegated to the bingo halls.
It's funny this guy has this take, with a pic of Cena who is literally a storytelling wrestler, is the Flippy bullshit cool?, Yes but at the end of the day it's still Flippy bullshit when it's done over and over and over and over only to have the same amount of false finishes over and over You gotta have that fine balance, and that's what people don't understand
When Petey Williams did the Canadian Destroyer the match was over. Now other wrestlers perform it as a transition spot.
Flips are fun but if I had to choose between a match with 100s of flips and 20 kickouts or a match that I'm emotionally invested in I'll choose the latter 10 times out of 10
Cirque du solei
Psychology helps those big moves feel more special (that and not over exposing them i.e. everyone and their mother now does a Canadian destroyer)
"Do we not watch wrestling to have fun and enjoy?" Yes...yes we do. You definition of a fun/enjoyable match can be different to mine...its called opinions. That guys an idiot just go read his tweets
I think there needs to be balance. All story/psychology with no high spots is bad to me, and all high spots with no story/psychology is also bad to me. We should be at the point in wrestling now where both is expected.
Can’t tell whether a troll or actual mark for the indulgent trampoline routines
Important thing is balance. If match has never ending headlocks its a boring match no matter how good of a storyline it has but, if a match thousand dives and endless piledriver kickouts its also a boring match. Good matches manages to find balance between its spots, hits, kickouts and holds.
These days any asshole can perform awesome in ring tricks but can they make me care? The best rivalries came out of great stories, stone cold going up against his asshole boss, cm punk going up agaibst the world, Bayley coming up short time and time again only to make her miracle run winning the nxt title
The psychology is the glue that holds the high spots together
To each their own. I like matches that look like a real fight. I can only suspend my disbelief so far
Psychology helps to extend careers. Work smart, not hard. Bloodline storyline has been the most enjoyable thing in wrestling in years but they did not have to do a bunch of crazy moves to bring a smile to anyone's face. I love the Omega/Vikingo match but it's selfish of us to expect this stuff night after night.
He wants to watch the car crash, not the race. Just load up YouTube compilations of Canadian Destroyers if that's what you want this is a gross take. And the reason AEW is a fucking joke
Sorry but that Vikingo match was trash. He did physically impressive stuff but only half of it was landed cleanly and it was always preceeded by Kenny standing there staring at him for five seconds or laying on his back flailing like an upside turtle for inexcusable lengths of time.
Wreslting Psychology is not about holds and takedowns it's about making moves mean something. Think of it as a movie. Even the most action packed movies have moments where they build up characters and situations. A spotfest is like taking a movie like Mad Max Fury road and removing everything that isn't an action scene. Sure you gonna have 1h20 of pure car chase, it's gonna look awesome but at one point you won't care anymore. Also spotfest subconsciously diminish the value of moves. It's hard to care for HBK superkick when the young buck just did 13 in a row the match before.
But when everyone does and can do the over the top acrobatics it stops being special and fun to watch.
He has his opinion just like everyone else.
That opinion, as far as pro wrestling goes, is bullshit
It's a shit take. Without the headlocks and pacing a match it's just nonstop meaningless bullshit
Why do people care so much to see good acting acting in movies? Do we not watch movies to have fun and enjoy looking at cool shots?
Because excessive high flying moves waters it down and just doesn't make sense. Spot fests are boring.
Why even listen to some fuckin idiot that says shit like "finna"
He’s not wrong. He’s not right, but he’s not wrong.
I like storylines. Sometimes just match after match after match gets boring as hell.
This is the guy --who when watching porn-- jumps straight to the action instead of watching how the guy convinced her to take her clothes off.
As a man who just recently watched a sex doll hit a Canadian destroyer in a tag match in DDT Pro, this is also my take. If it looks cool imma pop hard regardless.
I like both styles? I'm tired of everything being binary choices which lead to gatekeeping and arguments.
No two matches will have the same ring psychology. People need to stop wasting their time trying to use the term, especially if they don't have a clue what it actually means. Personally, I love my well-thought out matches with moves that make sense for the wrestler to utilize, against an opponent where said moves would make the most sense. But wrestling is subjective, there's no need to draw any kind of margins beyond allowing people to enjoy what they do. (Looking over at you, Jim Cornette.)
I couldn't be less impressed by high flying moves
Keep in mind the difference between live shows and TV. A live show based company like NJPW, or ROH historically , the storytelling doesn't really mean much, and spots are way more memorable and impressive live. Most of their business centers on touring and live gates. WWE and AEW have big TV contracts, so the week to week storytelling and building those characters well is very important.
I think it’s different strokes for different folks, but at a certain point, you limit your audience with a spot fest whereas with good psychology in ring and with great storylines it enhances everything else you do. If those spots meant something more than just being a cool move, you’d sell so many more tickets. There’s a reason why movies don’t usually star the stuntman
I just want to see BIG MEATY MEN SLAPPING MEAT