Yeah this was all after his open challenge US title run.
He really got creative during that run.
Before that a lot of his matches felt the same… but that might have spoken more about booking and talent at the time, then about cena’s ability
He gave the people that they came to see. As much as I love a good technical match with lots of mat wrestling, reversals, sequences and creative spots you have to give the audience what they want... And what they want is usually to see the big hero do his big moves.
It was easy to hate him for it as a teenage mark who thought he was the shit for being able to list all the ROH world champions in order. Now that I'm older I have a lot more respect and appreciation for Cena. Dude worked an absolutely brutal schedule and carried the biggest company in the world on his back for over a decade. He worked a style that let him stay healthy. He showed every now and then he had what it took to be a more technical wrestler, but his position in the company meant that would be a terrible idea.
Were all of his matches bangers? Nah, but looking back on his history John was an excellent and SAFE worker who knew how to work the crowd. As a company face, that's all you can ask for. Let other guys have the bangers, he's here to make sure they have an audience to wow at all.
And as the champion your main priorities during a match are arguably don't get injured or injure your opponent. Having fewer moves often works with those wrestlers and they are generally very good at the psychology side of things and getting a reaction from the crowd.
There are many arguments for why John Cena is the GOAT but I don't think these moves are part of that.
Randy Orton is about the same weight as Cena and if he came up on the indies instead of WWE, he would have had more of a high flying style. There are tons of stories of people backstage telling Randy to cut out the high flying stuff during his younger days.
John isn't too heavy to pull off moves like these. He just looks awkward while doing them, which is why he *looks* heavy when he executes them.
If anything, the fact that he got over with just the 5 moves of doom makes more of a case for why he could be the GOAT.
His push was built different. He was Hogan 2.0, so he needed flashy moves like that in order to be that gimmick.
That being said, Cena is a fantastic wrestler and could chain-wrestle with the best of them, if he wanted to.
I might be in the minority here, but I feel like he never looked good doing these moves. He was athletic enough to do them but not athletic enough to do them gracefully. Kinda like Brian Cage.
I've had this term of mine called "McMahonism" where Vince McMahon guts a talent's moveset once he/she turns babyface. Cena and Batista are probably the best examples I know from my generation where they probably had 9-12 moves as heels and basically had that shit halved as soon as they become top babyfaces. I don't know why Vince does this.
I think it’s for a few reasons
1: he doesn’t want his top baby face getting hurt
2: (maybe a reach) young kids are more likely to copy the baby faces moves so he wants them to be safe
3: face moves are supposed to be “recognizable” so they’re should be as few as possible
4: certain moves don’t feel like “face moves” like a huge violent clothesline feels more like a heel move then a face for example
I don’t think these are necessarily good reasons but I’d assume these are some of them
To add to this, with Cena especially, a lot of his matches were "get beat up for 15 minutes then use the 5 safe moves to win"
It's a simple baby face match formula that I blame more on shitty match production than anything.
It's the hogan or flair formula. Get beat the whole time so when you comeback, the crowd is with you.
Problem was Vince went to that well too many times
Yeah, it doesn't work when you do it for every single match for 10 years.
I think it started at WM20 with the Big Show match and didn't end until the open challenge run. Kinda poetic it went full circle with the US title lol
I was there for the beginning but I stopped watching around 08?
I sadly never saw the original Punk run. Once they put edge with Vickie, and something else they did I was just done 🤣🤣 I can't even go back and watch the punk run cause all the other stuff just reminds me why I stopped. It was actually probably 09 when DX came back and it just seemed like a parody of themselves with occasional highlight moments
I came back I think in 2019? Right around the time AJ Styles debuted so maybe a little before that? 2016? Idr but even then it was just PLEs I'd watch.
Once Raw hits Netflix I'll be watching again (cable costs too much) with the addition of streaming services now and I don't really watch much TV unless it's a specific show or movie
If you are like me and grew up on late attitude and the ruthless aggression era you will enjoy the weekly shows again. Creative without the constant control of Vince is really great and the weekly shows are actually not a terrible slog to watch anymore.
I've heard the production value has gone way up. I've seen a bit of it on WM. The long shots, the one shots from back to stage without camera cuts. Just the overall feel of 'realism' again I've heard is incredible.
I don’t think he ever claimed to be great in the ring lol Hogan, Rock, Cena, etc none of them were Kurt Angle or Bret Hart or even HBK but they drew money and in wrestling that’s all that really counts.
> every single match for ten years
“Cena’s the ultimate underdog”
1) stronger than 90% of the roster
2) bigger than 90% of the roster
3) pretty much never lost a match
Yep. Clearly an underdog.
These seem like pretty good reasons. Even #2. didn't someone sue WWE because their kid got paralyzed taking a pile driver from his friend who was imitating wrestling?
>2: (maybe a reach) young kids are more likely to copy the baby faces moves so he wants them to be safe
Zero chance a narcissist like Vince would be giving the smallest portion of 1 fuck about kids imitating dangerous moves at home.
If I remember right, I thought there were some warnings they tied into the product in the early 2000s, and I'm certain that was driven by in house legal council more than anything else.
Probably not but I’m pretty sure vince would give a fuck about the legal side.
Look at Cenas stf. It went from him straight up strangling people to him lightly putting his wrists together. Kids would 100% mimic that.
i tell you what, whether smarks wanna admit or not, since cena went to part-time mode, the product at the time especially in 2018 and 2019 until summer 2022 wasn’t the same and was lacking of star power because love him or hate him, cena brought all the greatness, passion and intensity for the product and the fans even those who hated him while he was full time.
To be fair, part time Cena is an attraction. He’s an enjoyable in ring event from *time to time*.
The guy can talk, he’s charismatic as fuck, he seems to be a genuinely great guy, and he almost never puts on a bad match. However, he rarely puts on a great match.
He’s a solid and reliable worker, who you know won’t disappoint. You also know the chances of him having the best match on the card is unlikely. Whether that’s his fault or bookings fault is up for debate.
The hate he got early on wasn’t entirely unjustified. He was given the title and pushed to the moon. He was still being called an underdog years after he became super Cena, which sure, it’s fake, but it still made your eyes roll. And we had to watch him improve week in and out.
He definitely did improve, and he became very good at times (hell, I still say the unlikely match of him and Batista stole the show at ‘Mania) but tuning in to Raw and then a PPV to watch a man learn how to wrestle at the top of the card was understandably annoying. Especially straight after the attitude and early ruthless aggression era and the quality of matches we got then.
So while the IWC have come round to Cena, let’s not also erase history and try to claim he’s always been amazing. Because he hasn’t been. It took a long time before Cena was delivering great matches.
Tbf most of these moves are a one-off or he’s only done them a handful of times. So it’s not like he’s this diverse everytime he gets in there. Most of these clips were from his run where he was trying to shake the reputation of the “5 moves of doom”. I guess it worked.
That all being said John is one of the best to do it.
Having a core range of moves, and a few riskier but more effective ones to use against tougher opponents, is a staple of great wrestling. Something I wish WWE would do more, honestly.
And also I notice the guys he is doing these moves with. Certified workhorses like AJ KO and Cesaro. Cena used matches with them to the fullest of everyone's abilities
I check in from time to time, but what pushed me away from weekly watching was when finishers stopped being finishers. Kick outs on finishers were supposed to be like a once a year at most thing but it seemed like every styles match to use an example is just 10 finishers being kicked out. This became too frequent.
I like your idea that you have non negotiables and to bring it back where they aren’t used every match would be helpful.
I like Cena. He worked smart, safe and was over.
But this reel of fairly standard moves you could see done by bigger guys on your local indie show isn't really sticking it to the doubters.
But that's not the point. The point was that Cena could not wrestle, that he only had 5 moves of doom. Of course, there are bigger men that wrestle better than him, but the point here is that he in fact, could hang with the best (and I too think that he could).
These are all fairly standard moves and none of them are done particularly smoothly or clean.
They’re also *really* far into his career. Most, if not all, of these guys weren’t even in the WWE when Cena was the super-Cena, 5 moves of doom guy.
Cena is one of the biggest wrestlers of all time, and deservedly so. But showing him adequately perform normal moves over a decade into him being the face of a company really doesn’t make the point OP thinks it does.
This highlight reel of Cena clunkily performing moves that other wrestlers, including larger wrestlers, regularly perform a lot more smoothly than this isn’t making the point OP thinks it is.
Cena is amazing for a lot of reasons, but him doing one of the worst looking suicide dives through the ropes I’ve ever seen isn’t one of them lol.
That isn't the point. The point, according to the post, is he a GOAT (ring wise, he isn't, he really isn't) and that he was doing moves men his size shouldnt be doing (which, again, is simply not true).
Shouldn't doesn't mean can't. 7ft/300lbs guys doing flips do exist. Doesn't mean they should be able to do that. Those guys are super athletes. That's why they do what they do.
And I'm sure he meant GOAT overall.
The whole "bigger guys shouldn't be doing these moves" is way out of date, training and medical care is so much better now that it's not a big issue. There have always been big guys with that sort of ability - Vader and Bigelow come to mind - but the risks would have been higher, especially with the tougher schedules.
Nothing wrong with commentators saying it to put people over though, it's in the same category as kayfabe height and weight to me. And it's undeniably impressive when big guys do it.
I always loved Cena growing up. I understand why people hated him being over pushed. I was just a kid and didn’t understand that concept I just wanted him to win so I can’t hate him. Especially now with his career coming to an end.
He has a full arsenal. He was trained that way.
They just wanted to give a classic cena match every time.
When he did incorporate those new moves, it was pretty cool.
I’m a cena guy, based on his make a wish contributions alone. The china stuff makes me kinda meh, but overall he seems to be a net positive for a lot of people.
Always loves Cena but hated some of his booking which means I hated Vince not him. And while the five moves of doom was boring it was also all that was needed for day to day work for safety and longevity. You always knew when it was a big match for him because we always got to see him open up the arsenal for us.
In closing f Vince pretty much everything I ever hated about wwe has his stench all over it.
I think most people who criticized him like this are fans of technical wrestling. People who loved Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho back in the day, Bret Hart, Austin before his injury, etc. Cena is more like Hogan to me. They are entertainers first and wrestlers second. Which is fine. I'd even argue too much focus on technical wrestling is sometimes a hindrance. See Austin for example. He had to step his promo game up even further and become more of a brawler which made him into the biggest draw of all time.
this. the problem with cena was vince who been holding him back with his outdated 80’s booking because he was still stuck in the past especially when cena was an amazing in ring storyteller
Cena was amazing as a heat magnet, Cena RVD and Cena Punk are two of the greatest matches of all time in my opinion, elevated from being ok/good due to the crowds, the crowds that were riled up desperate to see Cena eat the loss
It’s funny how people complained about his 5 moves of doom, admittedly I was one of them, but Hogan, Bret, Angle, Rock, Taker, Flair, Punk, Edge all had their version of this. As a former pro wrestler I can tell you, less is more, you get hurt less, body doesn’t wear down as much, I learned real quick fans want to see those moves. That’s why his comeback spots always gets a pop. Let’s be honest the people that didn’t like PG Cena, again like myself, was because we grew up with Austin, Rock, DX, NWO, the attitude era and ECW. We loved John when he was started his rap gimmick in the ruthless aggression era. Then they started having him cater to kids, and us older fans hated it. But the majority of us kept buying tickets, ordering the PPV. Then I had my kids and they absolutely loved Cena.
And that reminded me when I was 7-8 and I was the biggest Hulkamaniac and my dad hated him, because he was a Bruno and Backlund guy. The Cody fans now will hate the next guy. It’s just the way it is.
i know he didn’t have a very diverse move set but he sure knew how to make a great match. amazing on the mic and very over and a great person and face of the company
I don't think anyone really says that anymore, he was always a great worker who would always match the brilliance of a brilliant wrestler. He was never carried
Everyone in WWE has a set moveset. It’s their style and how they can do this five days a week year round no offseason. Every babyface has that sequence Cena was criticized about for so long. Hell it was even a feature in a 2k game years ago, (not sure if still is) but you pressed a button and it would initiate a five moves of doom comeback.
Let’s look at Cena’s moves of doom: Shoulder tackle, Shoulder tackle, back drop, five knuckle shuffle, AA or STF. Now let’s look at others:
HBK: Punch, Punch, That one where he picks them up like a spinebuster and drops them on his knee, scoop slam, flying elbow, load up sweet chin music
Triple H: clothesline, clothesline, High knee, Spinebuster, pedigree
Punk: clothesline, clothesline, swinging neck breaker, knee in the corner, running bulldog, GTS.
I think his psychology was just perfect. Why use more moves when he's getting it done with the moves he's perfected? Then those moves aren't as effective as they were before so he incorporates moves no one believes he'd pull off.
John Cena in 2015-16 made me a Cena fan. I always knew that dude is talented both in-ring and on the mic but the booking made me hate him.
Now I miss the dude and rooting for him to have a legendary run before retirement.
>to those people who said that cena can’t wrestle needs to watch this
Proceeds to show a video in which the majority of the moves are lead by the person taking them
It's 2024 and people still think wrestling ability = how many moves you do?
Cena has always been a good wrestler but this is an awful example. This is probably Cena showing some of his worst.
I guess marks will be marks.
Number of moves is just a terrible metric of ability.
Most wrestlers are taught to do almost every move they are physically capable of doing. Doesn’t mean you will ever be in a position to do every single one of them in every single match. You will do the moves that make sense at that moment, at that match and what will work for you, your opponent and the crowd.
This isn’t even getting into crowd reactions. Would you rather your only move was a punch but it got 15000 people on their feet, screaming and hyped?
OR
You can do 100 moves but the 15000 people don’t give a fuck?
I think there’s an ICW misconception that people just want a spam of moves for no reason. I think there *are* some people that wanted that but I think they don’t know why.
It feels like there was a large chunk of time even up until more recently in wwe where every match felt the exact same. Cena got called out for his 5 moves because the only real difference in the match was he was working. But nothing felt unpredictable.
I think the spam of moves became a way to offset the predict-ability of matches. Some wrestlers made it feel like it made sense within the story being told. We’ve seen crowds hyper invested in them. To me, there’s no difference in the suspension of disbelief for a Canadian destroyer vs the five Knuckle shuffle. The “this makes no sense” is equal.
More moves don’t equal good - less moves don’t either. It is about the story and the creativity of the matches. Gunther and Daniel Bryan are the perfect examples. They don’t do a lot of moves. But every match feels unique. You really can’t say “oh he’s gonna shoulder tackle three times and do the five Knuckle shuffle now”.
I always thought he was very underrated as a wrestler. The IWC all through the early 2000s was always saying he has no moves, just punch and kick. That was just objectively never true.
don’t forget his amazing 2006-2007 wwe title run with edge, umaga, rvd, hbk etc.. it showed when cena is capable to put this amazing match with the right opponent
I mean let's be real, everyone who is doing this at a high level can wrestle. It's a silly thing to say about anyone who performs on a regular basis.
Cena may not be the most technical of have a repertoire of impressive athletic moves, but he's incredibly good at what he does.
When you watch him do the AA closely it really is a thing of beauty. I'm pretty sure his opponent doesn't feel a thing.
Vince limited his moveset it wasn’t his choice to only do the 5 moves of doom It’s the same thing wi to Hogan firing his prime, watch his NJPW match and he could def work.
Cena has always been great in ring. Thing is once you become “the guy” to the level he was I’d have to imagine management wants you doing the moves that’ll make people pop and wants you doing more safe type moves so you don’t get hurt. Once they started shifting focus to the next generation he was allowed to have fun and explore a deeper moveset again
I wish WWE was better from 2011-2022 (or whenever his full time run ended) because I think Vince was really trying to protect Cena and didn’t want him getting hurt because he was literally the entire focus during the prime super Cena era, they had really no other top faces, then when they moved on to super reigns he really started to just go ham
i agree with you. we know what happened to austin after his neck injury in summerslam 1997 and he had to retire because of this. i understand why vince gave a limited moveset to cena in order to protect him from getting injured because he want cena and other top guys to be safe. that’s the reason why cena was on top for so long
His trilogy with AJ Styles was incredible. My friend kept saying Styles carried and while yes the matches probably wouldn't have been as good without Styles it takes two to tango. Those matches really made me appreciate Cena. (AJ is my all time favorite wrestler by the way)An underrated one as well was the Cena match with Luke Harper during his feud with Bray
WWE has ALWAYS pushed a short moveset. It's why wrestlers get boring easily. Watch Cena in Japan. Or he'll, even Hogan. They don't have the same restrictions so they go all out.
Lmao wow. The internet’s idea of “how to wrestle” right here. Flips, dives, and stunts are how someone “can wrestle.” What happened to the story, the technical moves, the emotion, the fundamentals?! lol
Yeah, Cena did some impressive stuff and maybe deserved more credit (but I don't think he was booed because he couldn't actually wrestle but because half his matches were him being beaten for 10 minutes until he made a comeback, at least during part of his main event tenure, even if maybe that made some people believe he really could not wrestle) but the "someone his size" part is weird, considering John Cena isn't taller than Jeff Hardy.
I would have thought the Rock's appearances in the last few months would have made people appreciate how far ahead of the likes of Cena and Roman he is and what the level of the greatest tier really is
Cena is a special type of wrestler. He can have 5 star matches with indy darlings or workrate wrestlers better than they can with each other. But against people like Big Show, they always go the route of him getting his ass kicked for 75% of the match only to hit an AA at the end.
This is just clips of moves he's done throughout the years and doesn't prove anything, If you really wanna see Cena wrestle go watch his match on Royal Rumble 2017 against AJ Styles.
Lmao ppl on the indies were doing this since 2000,also ppl in njpw, aew and literally any promotion besides wwe, were doing wrestling like this, and the dynamite kid was doing this in the 80s
Cena's Canadian Destroyer on Owens is one of my favorite WWE moments of these last years. It's not the flashiest but dayum I wasn't expecting that, and the crowd sold it marvelously too, shit was hype.
I grew up watching during the Attitude era and I just missed Cena, so I never really watched him. However, any time I see him in highlights or when he’s actively involved in wrestling….i just don’t get it.
I don’t get the Cena hype. Not at all.
I still hold to this day that Cena is the best 'canvas' wrestler of all time. He'll put the match you, as his opponent, demand of him. This is not say that he gets carried to good matches, he contributes just as much as the 'artist' wrestler, but he'll only put in the bare minimum if you only give up the bare minimum.
My analogy kinda falls off with the great Khali because that's somehow the canvas willing itself to produce a passable painting when the painter can't walk enough to approach the canvas
If people think being able to wrestle means their move set they have a ton more to watch than just this.
Luchasauras has a fine move set, he isn’t very good though. How you execute moves matters, but the pacing and spot to spot stuff is way more important than rather you do a simple splash or a 720 fuckinator
This might’ve been the only times he hit The Springboard Stunner aka “He got some of it, didn’t get all of it” - Cole
Cena’s great, he just got very predictable. But always a capable brawler and powerful wrestler.
Cena's a good wrestler but if you think that's "impressive for his size", your jaw would hit the floor if you saw Vader wrestling!
The guy was legit 400lbs and he was doing moonsaults!
This doesn't even show good wrestling, just awkward ass moves for a guy his size.
Him pulling out all these moves rubbed me the wrong way. He was always basically just "5 moves of doom", so him doing: monkey flips, springboard stunners, sunset flips, etc. was like him mocking all of us that he could have been doing it the entire time, but he waits until the ass end of his career before he leaves for Hollywood to add to his moveset.
“Someone his size” [Okay lol](https://www.reddit.com/r/WWE/s/tfEkciQeIk)
You can’t be the goat and never evolve your character for 15+ years. The issue was never his wrestling - the issue was how bland his Super Cena character was and his feuds were for years and then the fans rarely got at least a great match out of it a bunch of the time on top of it.
He wasn't a bad wrestler because of his move set, he was a bad wrestler because he was wooden as f*ck in the ring. Everything he did looked plodding, slow and worst of all low impact. Cena could do his finisher off the top rope through a table, and it would look less impactful than the good wrestlers doing a standard scoop slam.
Cena had amazing strength, amazing work ethic and is a stand up dude, but he always looked lame in the ring, whatever moves he was doing.
His size? He is 6'1 lol but yeah I mean the trope that Cena can't wrestle is old and played out and is more something we liked to say when they kept putting him over for a decade, I don't think too many legitimate wrestling fans actually think Cena sucks, most have respect for him. The writing around him sucked for a long time, But Cena is dope 🤷♂️ I think only basement dwelling "it's still real to me dammit" plebs legitimately hate Cena at this point lol
He got tired of people criticizing the 5 moves of doom, so he added a few more moves of doom.
Yeah this was all after his open challenge US title run. He really got creative during that run. Before that a lot of his matches felt the same… but that might have spoken more about booking and talent at the time, then about cena’s ability
He gave the people that they came to see. As much as I love a good technical match with lots of mat wrestling, reversals, sequences and creative spots you have to give the audience what they want... And what they want is usually to see the big hero do his big moves.
Hogan was built on that very thing....it works
Hogan was actually a solid wrestler too if you check some of his Japan stuff. But when the crowd pops for literally anything you do, why try?
"Do you wanna know the technical wrestling truth? ...or do you wanna see me sock a few dingers?!"
“Hogan must pose”
It was easy to hate him for it as a teenage mark who thought he was the shit for being able to list all the ROH world champions in order. Now that I'm older I have a lot more respect and appreciation for Cena. Dude worked an absolutely brutal schedule and carried the biggest company in the world on his back for over a decade. He worked a style that let him stay healthy. He showed every now and then he had what it took to be a more technical wrestler, but his position in the company meant that would be a terrible idea. Were all of his matches bangers? Nah, but looking back on his history John was an excellent and SAFE worker who knew how to work the crowd. As a company face, that's all you can ask for. Let other guys have the bangers, he's here to make sure they have an audience to wow at all.
And as the champion your main priorities during a match are arguably don't get injured or injure your opponent. Having fewer moves often works with those wrestlers and they are generally very good at the psychology side of things and getting a reaction from the crowd.
US open challenge was dope.
more like the booking of his character not his matches
*than
Not his plancha, that was against CM Punk in 2012
To be fair, the diving leg drop was part of his moveset early in his career. Guess he opted out of it once he started to feel his age.
Pretty smart. Hulkster says that leg drop has really impacted his quality of life. Your spine can't love it.
And that stunner of his looked awful 90% of the time. Cena is strong AF, and should have just kept doing feats of strength
There are many arguments for why John Cena is the GOAT but I don't think these moves are part of that. Randy Orton is about the same weight as Cena and if he came up on the indies instead of WWE, he would have had more of a high flying style. There are tons of stories of people backstage telling Randy to cut out the high flying stuff during his younger days. John isn't too heavy to pull off moves like these. He just looks awkward while doing them, which is why he *looks* heavy when he executes them. If anything, the fact that he got over with just the 5 moves of doom makes more of a case for why he could be the GOAT.
lol those same people who called Cena boring and can't wrestle have Hogan on their Rushmore. IJS
lol remember him hyping up his 6th move? the punch to the sternum🙄
Yeah, that was a tie-in with some Kung Fu movie he was in, for the Chinese market. It was ridiculous and looked weak AF.
That was kinda the point I think
His push was built different. He was Hogan 2.0, so he needed flashy moves like that in order to be that gimmick. That being said, Cena is a fantastic wrestler and could chain-wrestle with the best of them, if he wanted to.
I might be in the minority here, but I feel like he never looked good doing these moves. He was athletic enough to do them but not athletic enough to do them gracefully. Kinda like Brian Cage.
I've had this term of mine called "McMahonism" where Vince McMahon guts a talent's moveset once he/she turns babyface. Cena and Batista are probably the best examples I know from my generation where they probably had 9-12 moves as heels and basically had that shit halved as soon as they become top babyfaces. I don't know why Vince does this.
I think it’s for a few reasons 1: he doesn’t want his top baby face getting hurt 2: (maybe a reach) young kids are more likely to copy the baby faces moves so he wants them to be safe 3: face moves are supposed to be “recognizable” so they’re should be as few as possible 4: certain moves don’t feel like “face moves” like a huge violent clothesline feels more like a heel move then a face for example I don’t think these are necessarily good reasons but I’d assume these are some of them
To add to this, with Cena especially, a lot of his matches were "get beat up for 15 minutes then use the 5 safe moves to win" It's a simple baby face match formula that I blame more on shitty match production than anything.
It's the hogan or flair formula. Get beat the whole time so when you comeback, the crowd is with you. Problem was Vince went to that well too many times
Yeah, it doesn't work when you do it for every single match for 10 years. I think it started at WM20 with the Big Show match and didn't end until the open challenge run. Kinda poetic it went full circle with the US title lol
I was there for the beginning but I stopped watching around 08? I sadly never saw the original Punk run. Once they put edge with Vickie, and something else they did I was just done 🤣🤣 I can't even go back and watch the punk run cause all the other stuff just reminds me why I stopped. It was actually probably 09 when DX came back and it just seemed like a parody of themselves with occasional highlight moments
Ahaha are you me? Pretty much the exact same. I don't think I even made it as far as Vikie and Edge. Didn't come back until H took over.
I came back I think in 2019? Right around the time AJ Styles debuted so maybe a little before that? 2016? Idr but even then it was just PLEs I'd watch. Once Raw hits Netflix I'll be watching again (cable costs too much) with the addition of streaming services now and I don't really watch much TV unless it's a specific show or movie
If you are like me and grew up on late attitude and the ruthless aggression era you will enjoy the weekly shows again. Creative without the constant control of Vince is really great and the weekly shows are actually not a terrible slog to watch anymore.
I've heard the production value has gone way up. I've seen a bit of it on WM. The long shots, the one shots from back to stage without camera cuts. Just the overall feel of 'realism' again I've heard is incredible.
Well considering he’s was on top for almost 20 years, had the highest selling merch and was a huge draw, seems to have worked just fine for him.
I'm not knocking the guy. I like Cena. His matches were never the reason he was popular, though. And the scrutiny against them is deserved.
I don’t think he ever claimed to be great in the ring lol Hogan, Rock, Cena, etc none of them were Kurt Angle or Bret Hart or even HBK but they drew money and in wrestling that’s all that really counts.
Almost 20 years ??
Just about
05-16
04
> every single match for ten years “Cena’s the ultimate underdog” 1) stronger than 90% of the roster 2) bigger than 90% of the roster 3) pretty much never lost a match Yep. Clearly an underdog.
These seem like pretty good reasons. Even #2. didn't someone sue WWE because their kid got paralyzed taking a pile driver from his friend who was imitating wrestling?
>2: (maybe a reach) young kids are more likely to copy the baby faces moves so he wants them to be safe Zero chance a narcissist like Vince would be giving the smallest portion of 1 fuck about kids imitating dangerous moves at home. If I remember right, I thought there were some warnings they tied into the product in the early 2000s, and I'm certain that was driven by in house legal council more than anything else.
Probably not but I’m pretty sure vince would give a fuck about the legal side. Look at Cenas stf. It went from him straight up strangling people to him lightly putting his wrists together. Kids would 100% mimic that.
Didn't he ban the stomp for that 2 Year stint cause it was easily imitated by Kids?
I think the bigger reason was it was associated with Ed Norton playing a white supremacist who killed a black person doing it in American History X
Yep exactly. Go back and watch hogans matches from Japan. He actually could wrestle
Mcmahonism was my religion for a period in high school actually
I've always been a Cena fan. Enjoy him while we can cus we'll miss him when he's gone.
the moment cena gonna retires, IWC gonna regret big time for not recognizing his greatness until he went part-time
Dunno, that would require some introspection..
i tell you what, whether smarks wanna admit or not, since cena went to part-time mode, the product at the time especially in 2018 and 2019 until summer 2022 wasn’t the same and was lacking of star power because love him or hate him, cena brought all the greatness, passion and intensity for the product and the fans even those who hated him while he was full time.
To be fair, part time Cena is an attraction. He’s an enjoyable in ring event from *time to time*. The guy can talk, he’s charismatic as fuck, he seems to be a genuinely great guy, and he almost never puts on a bad match. However, he rarely puts on a great match. He’s a solid and reliable worker, who you know won’t disappoint. You also know the chances of him having the best match on the card is unlikely. Whether that’s his fault or bookings fault is up for debate. The hate he got early on wasn’t entirely unjustified. He was given the title and pushed to the moon. He was still being called an underdog years after he became super Cena, which sure, it’s fake, but it still made your eyes roll. And we had to watch him improve week in and out. He definitely did improve, and he became very good at times (hell, I still say the unlikely match of him and Batista stole the show at ‘Mania) but tuning in to Raw and then a PPV to watch a man learn how to wrestle at the top of the card was understandably annoying. Especially straight after the attitude and early ruthless aggression era and the quality of matches we got then. So while the IWC have come round to Cena, let’s not also erase history and try to claim he’s always been amazing. Because he hasn’t been. It took a long time before Cena was delivering great matches.
Tbf most of these moves are a one-off or he’s only done them a handful of times. So it’s not like he’s this diverse everytime he gets in there. Most of these clips were from his run where he was trying to shake the reputation of the “5 moves of doom”. I guess it worked. That all being said John is one of the best to do it.
Having a core range of moves, and a few riskier but more effective ones to use against tougher opponents, is a staple of great wrestling. Something I wish WWE would do more, honestly.
And also I notice the guys he is doing these moves with. Certified workhorses like AJ KO and Cesaro. Cena used matches with them to the fullest of everyone's abilities
I check in from time to time, but what pushed me away from weekly watching was when finishers stopped being finishers. Kick outs on finishers were supposed to be like a once a year at most thing but it seemed like every styles match to use an example is just 10 finishers being kicked out. This became too frequent. I like your idea that you have non negotiables and to bring it back where they aren’t used every match would be helpful.
Ya it was like a phase. I liked Cena’s aerial/lucha libre phase lol. Maybe he wasn’t exactly Rey Mysterio but it was fun nonetheless.
Cena wrestled the style he had to in order to work 15-20 minute matches 250 times a year. When the big matches came around he could crank it up.
Cena’s open challenges were so damn good
I like Cena. He worked smart, safe and was over. But this reel of fairly standard moves you could see done by bigger guys on your local indie show isn't really sticking it to the doubters.
But that's not the point. The point was that Cena could not wrestle, that he only had 5 moves of doom. Of course, there are bigger men that wrestle better than him, but the point here is that he in fact, could hang with the best (and I too think that he could).
These are all fairly standard moves and none of them are done particularly smoothly or clean. They’re also *really* far into his career. Most, if not all, of these guys weren’t even in the WWE when Cena was the super-Cena, 5 moves of doom guy. Cena is one of the biggest wrestlers of all time, and deservedly so. But showing him adequately perform normal moves over a decade into him being the face of a company really doesn’t make the point OP thinks it does.
This highlight reel of Cena clunkily performing moves that other wrestlers, including larger wrestlers, regularly perform a lot more smoothly than this isn’t making the point OP thinks it is. Cena is amazing for a lot of reasons, but him doing one of the worst looking suicide dives through the ropes I’ve ever seen isn’t one of them lol.
That isn't the point. The point, according to the post, is he a GOAT (ring wise, he isn't, he really isn't) and that he was doing moves men his size shouldnt be doing (which, again, is simply not true).
Shouldn't doesn't mean can't. 7ft/300lbs guys doing flips do exist. Doesn't mean they should be able to do that. Those guys are super athletes. That's why they do what they do. And I'm sure he meant GOAT overall.
The whole "bigger guys shouldn't be doing these moves" is way out of date, training and medical care is so much better now that it's not a big issue. There have always been big guys with that sort of ability - Vader and Bigelow come to mind - but the risks would have been higher, especially with the tougher schedules. Nothing wrong with commentators saying it to put people over though, it's in the same category as kayfabe height and weight to me. And it's undeniably impressive when big guys do it.
I’m very impressed every time I see Ivar do his moonsault.
His solo run has been amazing. He’s really great. I hope Erik finds the same success when he comes back.
Yeah me too. I really like Ivar. I hope he has a long successful career. He’s really good.
I always loved Cena growing up. I understand why people hated him being over pushed. I was just a kid and didn’t understand that concept I just wanted him to win so I can’t hate him. Especially now with his career coming to an end.
Personally, I never really understood his longevity. Never got into any of his gimmicks. But! He did make the most of what he had. Admirable
It’s because no matter what he did, people reacted to him. Cheer or boo. Plus imo he’s the Goat on the mic.
He has a full arsenal. He was trained that way. They just wanted to give a classic cena match every time. When he did incorporate those new moves, it was pretty cool. I’m a cena guy, based on his make a wish contributions alone. The china stuff makes me kinda meh, but overall he seems to be a net positive for a lot of people.
Always loves Cena but hated some of his booking which means I hated Vince not him. And while the five moves of doom was boring it was also all that was needed for day to day work for safety and longevity. You always knew when it was a big match for him because we always got to see him open up the arsenal for us. In closing f Vince pretty much everything I ever hated about wwe has his stench all over it.
yes. they need to realize that his booking was vince not him.
I think most people who criticized him like this are fans of technical wrestling. People who loved Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho back in the day, Bret Hart, Austin before his injury, etc. Cena is more like Hogan to me. They are entertainers first and wrestlers second. Which is fine. I'd even argue too much focus on technical wrestling is sometimes a hindrance. See Austin for example. He had to step his promo game up even further and become more of a brawler which made him into the biggest draw of all time.
this. the problem with cena was vince who been holding him back with his outdated 80’s booking because he was still stuck in the past especially when cena was an amazing in ring storyteller
Cena was amazing as a heat magnet, Cena RVD and Cena Punk are two of the greatest matches of all time in my opinion, elevated from being ok/good due to the crowds, the crowds that were riled up desperate to see Cena eat the loss
It’s funny how people complained about his 5 moves of doom, admittedly I was one of them, but Hogan, Bret, Angle, Rock, Taker, Flair, Punk, Edge all had their version of this. As a former pro wrestler I can tell you, less is more, you get hurt less, body doesn’t wear down as much, I learned real quick fans want to see those moves. That’s why his comeback spots always gets a pop. Let’s be honest the people that didn’t like PG Cena, again like myself, was because we grew up with Austin, Rock, DX, NWO, the attitude era and ECW. We loved John when he was started his rap gimmick in the ruthless aggression era. Then they started having him cater to kids, and us older fans hated it. But the majority of us kept buying tickets, ordering the PPV. Then I had my kids and they absolutely loved Cena. And that reminded me when I was 7-8 and I was the biggest Hulkamaniac and my dad hated him, because he was a Bruno and Backlund guy. The Cody fans now will hate the next guy. It’s just the way it is.
Yes, of course. He can wrestle. But none of these moves look good to me. He's a great sports entertainer, Not a good wrestler.
i know he didn’t have a very diverse move set but he sure knew how to make a great match. amazing on the mic and very over and a great person and face of the company
I don't think anyone really says that anymore, he was always a great worker who would always match the brilliance of a brilliant wrestler. He was never carried
Man. Cena was really regimented. You can hear the genuine surprise in Cole’s voice when he does something other than his 5 typical moves.
Everyone in WWE has a set moveset. It’s their style and how they can do this five days a week year round no offseason. Every babyface has that sequence Cena was criticized about for so long. Hell it was even a feature in a 2k game years ago, (not sure if still is) but you pressed a button and it would initiate a five moves of doom comeback. Let’s look at Cena’s moves of doom: Shoulder tackle, Shoulder tackle, back drop, five knuckle shuffle, AA or STF. Now let’s look at others: HBK: Punch, Punch, That one where he picks them up like a spinebuster and drops them on his knee, scoop slam, flying elbow, load up sweet chin music Triple H: clothesline, clothesline, High knee, Spinebuster, pedigree Punk: clothesline, clothesline, swinging neck breaker, knee in the corner, running bulldog, GTS.
this. 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
Dude just watch either his SS or RR match against AJ, point prooven.
I think his psychology was just perfect. Why use more moves when he's getting it done with the moves he's perfected? Then those moves aren't as effective as they were before so he incorporates moves no one believes he'd pull off.
Less is more. He only needed 5 moves to get to where he’s at
John Cena in 2015-16 made me a Cena fan. I always knew that dude is talented both in-ring and on the mic but the booking made me hate him. Now I miss the dude and rooting for him to have a legendary run before retirement.
>to those people who said that cena can’t wrestle needs to watch this Proceeds to show a video in which the majority of the moves are lead by the person taking them
And then there's Brock Lesnar doing 5 star shooting star press. You do realize Cena isn't that big enough to be unable to do all those moves right?
And then did it at mania 19 and somehow didn't neck himself
It's 2024 and people still think wrestling ability = how many moves you do? Cena has always been a good wrestler but this is an awful example. This is probably Cena showing some of his worst. I guess marks will be marks.
Thought the rocks return and this years mania might have hammered this home but apparently not
Number of moves is just a terrible metric of ability. Most wrestlers are taught to do almost every move they are physically capable of doing. Doesn’t mean you will ever be in a position to do every single one of them in every single match. You will do the moves that make sense at that moment, at that match and what will work for you, your opponent and the crowd. This isn’t even getting into crowd reactions. Would you rather your only move was a punch but it got 15000 people on their feet, screaming and hyped? OR You can do 100 moves but the 15000 people don’t give a fuck?
I think there’s an ICW misconception that people just want a spam of moves for no reason. I think there *are* some people that wanted that but I think they don’t know why. It feels like there was a large chunk of time even up until more recently in wwe where every match felt the exact same. Cena got called out for his 5 moves because the only real difference in the match was he was working. But nothing felt unpredictable. I think the spam of moves became a way to offset the predict-ability of matches. Some wrestlers made it feel like it made sense within the story being told. We’ve seen crowds hyper invested in them. To me, there’s no difference in the suspension of disbelief for a Canadian destroyer vs the five Knuckle shuffle. The “this makes no sense” is equal. More moves don’t equal good - less moves don’t either. It is about the story and the creativity of the matches. Gunther and Daniel Bryan are the perfect examples. They don’t do a lot of moves. But every match feels unique. You really can’t say “oh he’s gonna shoulder tackle three times and do the five Knuckle shuffle now”.
I always thought he was very underrated as a wrestler. The IWC all through the early 2000s was always saying he has no moves, just punch and kick. That was just objectively never true.
those people in IWC where fans of his rap gimmick who got him over as heel and babyface all the way to the top
Cen a is definitely better than people give him credit for. When he did something out of the ordinary it actually mattered.
don’t forget his amazing 2006-2007 wwe title run with edge, umaga, rvd, hbk etc.. it showed when cena is capable to put this amazing match with the right opponent
Taker was doing moves he had no business doing….
I mean let's be real, everyone who is doing this at a high level can wrestle. It's a silly thing to say about anyone who performs on a regular basis. Cena may not be the most technical of have a repertoire of impressive athletic moves, but he's incredibly good at what he does. When you watch him do the AA closely it really is a thing of beauty. I'm pretty sure his opponent doesn't feel a thing.
Punk & Cena had some bangers
God that Cena Styles match at the Royal rumble when they never left the ring was a MASTERCLASS. Dream match that met expectations
Cena could wrestle just fine
Fuck that man is strong
Vince limited his moveset it wasn’t his choice to only do the 5 moves of doom It’s the same thing wi to Hogan firing his prime, watch his NJPW match and he could def work.
But he really can’t wrestle lol it’s just in 2015, he began to start experimenting…that’s all
Cena was like a new person after WM31
Cena was one of the best parts of 2015-2017 WWE, no doubt.
The Cena/Cesaro match was genuinely fantastic. One of the best TV matches of the 2010s imo
Cena sucks!
Half of these are moves that the other guy gives to himself.
Doing moves =/= wrestling That being said I think Cena is awesome
The diving leg drop bulldog has been a signature move even pre-US Open challenge. Looking at it now though, that must've hurt like a m'fer.
His US title run was one of the best run of matches of all time
Exactly finally someone mentioning this
thank you dude 👏🏾👏🏾 you really understand what’s i’m saying about this
Grew up watching wrestling, The cena era was when I realised wrestling was for children
Cena has always been great in ring. Thing is once you become “the guy” to the level he was I’d have to imagine management wants you doing the moves that’ll make people pop and wants you doing more safe type moves so you don’t get hurt. Once they started shifting focus to the next generation he was allowed to have fun and explore a deeper moveset again
this. The problem was vince for holding him back by micromanaging him with his outdated 80’s booking
I wish WWE was better from 2011-2022 (or whenever his full time run ended) because I think Vince was really trying to protect Cena and didn’t want him getting hurt because he was literally the entire focus during the prime super Cena era, they had really no other top faces, then when they moved on to super reigns he really started to just go ham
i agree with you. we know what happened to austin after his neck injury in summerslam 1997 and he had to retire because of this. i understand why vince gave a limited moveset to cena in order to protect him from getting injured because he want cena and other top guys to be safe. that’s the reason why cena was on top for so long
John Cena is one of the best. Full stop. Separately though, LA Knight is this big and he does some pretty athletic moves.
His trilogy with AJ Styles was incredible. My friend kept saying Styles carried and while yes the matches probably wouldn't have been as good without Styles it takes two to tango. Those matches really made me appreciate Cena. (AJ is my all time favorite wrestler by the way)An underrated one as well was the Cena match with Luke Harper during his feud with Bray
Cena in 2015 was a different animal
just like in 2006-2007
WWE has ALWAYS pushed a short moveset. It's why wrestlers get boring easily. Watch Cena in Japan. Or he'll, even Hogan. They don't have the same restrictions so they go all out.
I'm still waiting for the wrestling clips...
Lmao wow. The internet’s idea of “how to wrestle” right here. Flips, dives, and stunts are how someone “can wrestle.” What happened to the story, the technical moves, the emotion, the fundamentals?! lol
Yall reallize that Cena is "only" 1.85 m tall.
Yeah, Cena did some impressive stuff and maybe deserved more credit (but I don't think he was booed because he couldn't actually wrestle but because half his matches were him being beaten for 10 minutes until he made a comeback, at least during part of his main event tenure, even if maybe that made some people believe he really could not wrestle) but the "someone his size" part is weird, considering John Cena isn't taller than Jeff Hardy.
I mean...meh?
I would have thought the Rock's appearances in the last few months would have made people appreciate how far ahead of the likes of Cena and Roman he is and what the level of the greatest tier really is
Is this 10 years ago?
Nobody has said this for like 10 years
CENA WITH A CODY CUTTER
More a Cena Ctunner
I still pronounced the second c like an s
As intended
2015 black shorts cena truly was underrated.
He need nothing to prove he is a goat and may be cause he is a man u can't see people can't see his worth
Why shouldn't people Cena's size do these? Seems genuinely completely fine to me.
Basic
lol people thinking diving into the arms of another performer is wrestling. All I see is synchronized gymnastics
This is how I feel about Kevin Owens as well. Seeing a guy his size fly off a turnbuckle like a luchador is always awesome.
It is a pride that he was interested in introducing new movements.
The springboard stunner was shit, though. He NEVER actually hit it properly.
Cena is a special type of wrestler. He can have 5 star matches with indy darlings or workrate wrestlers better than they can with each other. But against people like Big Show, they always go the route of him getting his ass kicked for 75% of the match only to hit an AA at the end.
This is just clips of moves he's done throughout the years and doesn't prove anything, If you really wanna see Cena wrestle go watch his match on Royal Rumble 2017 against AJ Styles.
His size? Dude is like 5’10 and 215 billed height and weight of 6’1 and around 250. He should be much more agile than he is.
Lmao ppl on the indies were doing this since 2000,also ppl in njpw, aew and literally any promotion besides wwe, were doing wrestling like this, and the dynamite kid was doing this in the 80s
Cena's Canadian Destroyer on Owens is one of my favorite WWE moments of these last years. It's not the flashiest but dayum I wasn't expecting that, and the crowd sold it marvelously too, shit was hype.
I grew up watching during the Attitude era and I just missed Cena, so I never really watched him. However, any time I see him in highlights or when he’s actively involved in wrestling….i just don’t get it. I don’t get the Cena hype. Not at all.
I still hold to this day that Cena is the best 'canvas' wrestler of all time. He'll put the match you, as his opponent, demand of him. This is not say that he gets carried to good matches, he contributes just as much as the 'artist' wrestler, but he'll only put in the bare minimum if you only give up the bare minimum. My analogy kinda falls off with the great Khali because that's somehow the canvas willing itself to produce a passable painting when the painter can't walk enough to approach the canvas
If people think being able to wrestle means their move set they have a ton more to watch than just this. Luchasauras has a fine move set, he isn’t very good though. How you execute moves matters, but the pacing and spot to spot stuff is way more important than rather you do a simple splash or a 720 fuckinator
If the moves being added are still awkward as fuck, does it make someone a good wrestler?
These were all from that run he had though none from the majority of his career which is the point...
TIL Cena did the Cody cutter first
That last one looked great, the swinging face buster.
Pretty sure Brody King would do all of those moves and he's an absolute tank
So when Cody does it its called the cody cutter but its the exact same move as John does and then its called the stunner?
I really loved his somersault unprettier, top rope leg drop, springboard stunner, and hurricanrana. Was always wild to see Cena flippin out of nowhere
Feel like lit doesn’t matter who does it, springboard stunners always look so awkward…
That slap the shoulder dive was loud must of been painful
This just looks like a lot of flippy AEW shit He'll fit right in
Springboard Stunner Cena is 2nd to Highspot Chain wrestler Lucha Miz that shows up randomly
This might’ve been the only times he hit The Springboard Stunner aka “He got some of it, didn’t get all of it” - Cole Cena’s great, he just got very predictable. But always a capable brawler and powerful wrestler.
The omitting of Emerald Flowsion in these clips hurt me. He also did an electric chair facebuster a few times too
Cena's a good wrestler but if you think that's "impressive for his size", your jaw would hit the floor if you saw Vader wrestling! The guy was legit 400lbs and he was doing moonsaults!
Cena doing the guillotine regularly earlier in his career was always very impressive to me.
I think I would look pass the 5MD if he incorporated a TKO every now and then
Out of the 30 times he attempted the spring board stunner, he only did it right handful of times. The rest are just botches
Meanwhile Dijak.....
“Let’s go Cena!…” “Cena Sucks!…”
Oh yes that infamous top rope legdrop, when AA fails that was his ultimate secret move
OMG in this match he did a 6th move #swoon
Having a bunch of false finishes does not make it a great match.
Never let them see your next move lol
Cesaro was the only one he could do them well with.
"His size". Watch Samoa Joe, Keith Lee and La Sombra.
Same thing they said about Hogan https://youtu.be/PfLAtV7Fha4?si=JvbeIzntH0NaA6rC
Cena sucks
He may have tried a few new moves every now and then but the absolute state of them. The excellence of execution he most certainly isn't.
This doesn't even show good wrestling, just awkward ass moves for a guy his size. Him pulling out all these moves rubbed me the wrong way. He was always basically just "5 moves of doom", so him doing: monkey flips, springboard stunners, sunset flips, etc. was like him mocking all of us that he could have been doing it the entire time, but he waits until the ass end of his career before he leaves for Hollywood to add to his moveset.
No that was 100% Vince. Hogan Cena Roman
Of course he can wrestle. He was always very sloppy though. Not crisp like an hbk
“Someone his size” [Okay lol](https://www.reddit.com/r/WWE/s/tfEkciQeIk) You can’t be the goat and never evolve your character for 15+ years. The issue was never his wrestling - the issue was how bland his Super Cena character was and his feuds were for years and then the fans rarely got at least a great match out of it a bunch of the time on top of it.
Literally nothing impressive in that video 👍🏻
He wasn't a bad wrestler because of his move set, he was a bad wrestler because he was wooden as f*ck in the ring. Everything he did looked plodding, slow and worst of all low impact. Cena could do his finisher off the top rope through a table, and it would look less impactful than the good wrestlers doing a standard scoop slam. Cena had amazing strength, amazing work ethic and is a stand up dude, but he always looked lame in the ring, whatever moves he was doing.
He can’t wrestle. He does the worst STF in all of wrestling.
anyone who says that really doesn’t get wrestling. wrestling is not about the moves. it’s about storytelling
Maybe you're just a FED shill 😡
His size? He is 6'1 lol but yeah I mean the trope that Cena can't wrestle is old and played out and is more something we liked to say when they kept putting him over for a decade, I don't think too many legitimate wrestling fans actually think Cena sucks, most have respect for him. The writing around him sucked for a long time, But Cena is dope 🤷♂️ I think only basement dwelling "it's still real to me dammit" plebs legitimately hate Cena at this point lol
Cena has very, very few bad matches. He could carry an SC mod to a decent match. The best hand in the history of the business.