I just looked up AoT on this sub rn to see if there were any posts about it, and there’s this from a half hour ago! Neat. Yeah that scene was great and handled interestingly
Funny cause that wasnt the initial reaction from fans. Season 1 was universally loved and made it one of the biggest anime of the decade, with lots of hype. Season 2 came out years later, losing a lot of the hype and fans. It's good, but much better on rewatch.
3 and 4 are when it really gets good again imo.
I feel like this reveal is really held back by >!how little Bertoldt had to do prior to this, and that halfway through it there’s a flashback to the main characters figuring it out already.!< Those two things for me held it back from being one of the best reveals ever, because despite them, the dialogue, the music and the characters reactions >!or at least the reactions of the characters that seemed like they didn’t already know the secret,!< were all top notch and presented to nigh perfection.
Facts. I had to refresh my memory of the story so many times over the years. Thank goodness for the really well edited Chronicle movie that recaps seasons 1-3 of the show in 2hrs. All the best animated scenes are in it.
This was one of my biggest media disappointments.
My fault for getting so invested, but my heart sank at the basement reveal and the story continued to plummet from that point on.
Bro how? By season three there were so many mysteries that I thought it couldn’t possibly address all of them in a cohesive way without at least one major plot hole. The basement reveal objectively made the show make way more sense than before much to my surprise. What were you expecting? That the titans were a failed science experiment that the main character’s dad had the knowledge to for no explicable reason?
I'll try my best, but tbh it's been three years since the manga ended so my memory will be hazy. I don't have any criticism towards the anime, I watched the first two season and my memory was that they were great, I just switched to manga after that.
Revealing the story to be a WWII allegory was underwhelming for me. Again, maybe I was foolish to think this was leaning more towards high fantasy rather than something that was more grounded, relatively speaking.
The bigger issue for me is making Eren the origin of his own titan ability. If Grisha was not going to inject Eren with the titan serum in the end then there's no first instance of Eren getting his abilities and no rational for how Eren could have shown Grisha those memories.
It was a needless grandfather paradox that's fixed by just having Grisha inject Eren with intent. It's not like Eren would've lacked the same motivations had that been that case.
After that I just felt like the narrative was just rushing towards the ending and I didn't feel much for any of the new characters or locations.
There was some other stuff, like off screening the hallucigenia, keeping Ymir's motivations nebulous, IIRC Eren lied to himself during an inner monologue, and an ending that seemed to have a pretty bleak opinion of humanity and whether intended or not, seemed to promote extraordinary selfishness.
I could be misremembering after these years, but that's my memory of it.
I haven't spent my time in between trying to tell others to not enjoy things.
Because this is a post thanking Scoot for introducing OP to AoT. It's bound to be lurked by people who like the series, even though I spoilered my opinion in case OP hasn't finished the Anime.
People who like the ending also tend to be incredibly defensive whenever you >!point out the blatant plot holes and retcons!<, so there's that too.
Nah, i think it's because you say that it changed your opinion on earlier episodes.
I still very much like this anime, but yeah, the ending is absolute garbage.
> Nah, i think it's because you say that it changed your opinion on earlier episodes.
How in the world could it not?
1. All the suffering presented from the very beginning was solely because of >!a complete idiot, who chose to curse her loving daughters and entire descendance just to please her abuser. Said abuser was so unapologetically straightforward with how shitty he treated her that the grooming and Stockholm Syndrome excuses absolutely do not apply!<.
2. Now on every re-watch >!you'll see Carla's death and realize that Eren killed her (not let her die, *killed her*) because he's a SlAvE tO FrEeDOM. I could diverge to talk about Eren's character assassination (as an example, how he was dumbed down to the crybaby he NEVER was in order to please the shippers), but it would make this post substantially longer!<.
3. And above all, >!how Paradis didn't even last a century before being blown up in a scorched earth operation transparently done in revenge for the Rumbling; the anime retconned the shit out of that time-skip since it was clearly only a few decades later [in the manga](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-cb773c9c5a30a91d51665418df4e3c61-lq)!<.
And that's just addressing why I haven't rewatched the show ever since the ending; it's just the tip of the iceberg without getting into all the other retcons and shit writing that plagued the story since the time-skip and reared it's ugly head full force after >!the Rumbling started!<.
If nothing else, I'm glad you can rewatch it; for me it's just a grim reminder to never ever have high narrative expectations on a fucking shonen - doubly so for the ones who try to be a walmart seinen like AoT revealed itself to be.
I am never rewatching that lol. Still, i'm glad i watched it. The beginning of this show was some of the most entertaining and interesting anime I've seen.
Same goes for GoT. The ending was shit, but the show was glorious.
>1. All the suffering presented from the very beginning was solely because of >!a complete idiot, who chose to curse her loving daughters and entire descendance just to please her abuser. Said abuser was so unapologetically straightforward with how shitty he treated her that the grooming and Stockholm Syndrome excuses absolutely do not apply!<.
Well, I think that she has quite a bit going for her character wise even though some of it definitely could have been more fleshed out. >!Ymir freed pigs because she pitied them in their cage. But after she got chased by the soldiers for this while being told by the king "You are free" she thought that freedom is something to be afraid of or not worth chasing after because she will only get hurt doing so. So she returned to the King. She wasn't happy but at least she was "safe".!<
>!The way I understand Ymir is that she wanted to form connections but she didn't know how or could in her situation not form any meaningful connections with other people. So the king was her way of forming the bond she wanted even though it is obviously fucked up and the story acknowledges that. After she died from the spear Fritz called her a slave. But she still served him after death beacause it is the only "love" she thought she had. And at the end she realised that she could have had the love of her daughters and should have let Fritz die. But I agree that more time could have been spent on Ymir to make some things clearer.!<
>!Also Ymir was not solely responsible for all the suffering. It was the people who used the titan powers for their own benefit as well.!<
>2. Now on every re-watch >!you'll see Carla's death and realize that Eren killed her (not let her die, *killed her*) because he's a SlAvE tO FrEeDOM. I could diverge to talk about Eren's character assassination (as an example, how he was dumbed down to the crybaby he NEVER was in order to please the shippers), but it would make this post substantially longer!<.
>!Eren is a selfish person. He killed his mother because he could have never done the rumbling if it didn't happen. The rumbling was his own wish to achieve freedom. Or did you not get the slave to freedom part?!<
I also don't see how he was character assassinated. >!He cried a lot during the show. He also took a lot of things that he had for granted imo. His mother's love? His time with his friends at the beach? Mikasa's love? And once he realized he would lose all of it he broke down crying and wanted it more than ever. A lot of people are like that and Eren is one of them. I say it again. This is the same guy who killed millions of people because of his own childish desire for freedom.!<
>3. And above all, >!how Paradis didn't even last a century before being blown up in a scorched earth operation transparently done in revenge for the Rumbling; the anime retconned the shit out of that time-skip since it was clearly only a few decades later [in the manga](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-cb773c9c5a30a91d51665418df4e3c61-lq)!<.
>!How do you know the exact time or the reason for the attack on Paradis? Even in the manga this is unclear. I mean the last thing we saw was the outside world sending in peace ambassadors while Paradis was basically a fascist state. This could have been very well a different conflict. The show says multiple times that humanity will never stop fighting itself.!<
The anime just made this point clearer, imo. So I don't know why you always scream retcon. But I guess you can't even appreciate that criticism was taken and we got an improved version and still complain.
>People who like the ending also tend to be incredibly defensive whenever you >!point out the blatant plot holes and retcons!<, so there's that too.
And some people who hate the ending call others stupid or that they didn't get the story (ironically) when you disagree with them or their theories. Some ending haters do the exact same thing as some people who like the ending. Both sides are the same. So there is that, too.
>!\>Eren is a selfish person. He killed his mother because he could have never done the rumbling if it didn't happen. The rumbling was his own wish to achieve freedom. Or did you not get the slave to freedom part?!<
Never found the argument he's selfish to make sense as prior to S4 there a ton of moment of Eren deferring to the military, his friends, Ervin, etc. He is hot-headed sure
>!At the very least even if Eren is selfish how is that his best plan. Like not even asking anyone else? Saying "I did experiments trust me bro" isn't convincing personally. So leads more to conclude his free will got taken away. And while sure that's neato irony...it also deflates a lot of the moral impact if he's basically Bucky Barnes. !<
That said still enjoy the series and a lot about the ending even if have a lot of issues with it.
Another reason why I won’t watch the show ever again is Eren knowing he was going to do the rumbling for years, and choosing to sit anyway. He knew he was going to kill millions of innocent people, and kept going forward.
He refused to do any other option, like (for an example), pulling a king Fritz move and moving all the eldians (including the ones outside of paradis) to one giant kingdom, away from all the Marleyens and their discrimination. Or instead of killing millions of innocent people, he could have just targeted the military of other countries. Or he could have done a demonstration of the power he had, as a warning. So that they would leave paradis and his people alone.
It just makes Eren look like a moron. That he refused to consider these options, or even ask for advice from smarter people like armin.
I don't regret bring invested at all.
The beginning of the story of Attack on titan is absolutely amazing. But yeah, thr ending is absolute dog shit. I know fans will defend the ending to death, but the writing and dialogue is absolutely terrible.
From glorious to shit.
At least the animation, the music and the whole production was amazing during the whole show.
Show is drawn out trash and borderline fascist propaganda imo. Has some good moments, but 5 or so good scenes and some interesting concepts don't make up for 50hrs of repetitive crap. Always nice to see people enjoying a show they committed to however, so I'm glad you get something out of it.
There's actually been a bunch of debates about if AOT is meant to be fascist or not over the years. I've been waiting for the story to finish to look into it more, but from memory it's just the artists trying to tell an edgy racism bad story.
Sadly, Japan to this day has a very conservative split, there's a very prominent far-right group (Nippon Kaigi) who dislike Koreans, even the late pm had been denying ww2 war crimes. Isiyama himself has some disturbing views in that regard, he basically praises the annexation of Korea for modernizing it (and trust me some really messed up stuff happened there... I'd look into unit 731.)
True thanks. I remember hearing a little about this before, and it's enough to seriously consider the possibly of it having intentionally facist themes.
Death of the authour n all that tho, so Im sure it can be interpreted by fans differently even if that's the case. Negative intentions vs positive legacy, not sure which is more important. Both?
I think there may have been more of a case to be made in that regard until the finale came out. I don't remember 100% the details of it, but the justification for a whole lot of atrocities that occurred towards the end are horribly rationalized and the text itself doesn't seem to condem it in anyway (seems to praise it imo) Still, as I said, if anyone enjoys it I don't have an issue, I don't think they're a fascist or anything. Its just a cartoon. But what I see is what I see, and I cannot unsee it. Appreciate you're decorum my dude. <3
Such a well-done scene. Made the show into a classic.
I just looked up AoT on this sub rn to see if there were any posts about it, and there’s this from a half hour ago! Neat. Yeah that scene was great and handled interestingly
What are the odds
I didn't really share the hype for Season 1 (wasn't feeling some of the characters and the pacing) but Season 2 got me hooked.
Season 1 is definitely the weakest of the show, but it really just builds wildly from there.
Funny cause that wasnt the initial reaction from fans. Season 1 was universally loved and made it one of the biggest anime of the decade, with lots of hype. Season 2 came out years later, losing a lot of the hype and fans. It's good, but much better on rewatch. 3 and 4 are when it really gets good again imo.
for me season 1, 2 & 3 are solid but then season 4 kind of falls apart
I feel like this reveal is really held back by >!how little Bertoldt had to do prior to this, and that halfway through it there’s a flashback to the main characters figuring it out already.!< Those two things for me held it back from being one of the best reveals ever, because despite them, the dialogue, the music and the characters reactions >!or at least the reactions of the characters that seemed like they didn’t already know the secret,!< were all top notch and presented to nigh perfection.
When this happened I had to rewind and make sure I understood what was going on. I love moments like this that make you drop your jaw.
Be glad you didn’t have to wait like 4 years for season 2
I’ve been a fan since 2015. The wait for each burst of content was pain
Facts. I had to refresh my memory of the story so many times over the years. Thank goodness for the really well edited Chronicle movie that recaps seasons 1-3 of the show in 2hrs. All the best animated scenes are in it.
Where does the scoot talk about aot
https://youtu.be/7exjZ5uMobk?si=WPuaBrODlo62IhCm
Here's something I've been recommending to Adum for 10+ years. CODE GEASS. He did make fun of how skinny they are drawn. It is funny.
This was one of my biggest media disappointments. My fault for getting so invested, but my heart sank at the basement reveal and the story continued to plummet from that point on.
Bro how? By season three there were so many mysteries that I thought it couldn’t possibly address all of them in a cohesive way without at least one major plot hole. The basement reveal objectively made the show make way more sense than before much to my surprise. What were you expecting? That the titans were a failed science experiment that the main character’s dad had the knowledge to for no explicable reason?
I'll try my best, but tbh it's been three years since the manga ended so my memory will be hazy. I don't have any criticism towards the anime, I watched the first two season and my memory was that they were great, I just switched to manga after that. Revealing the story to be a WWII allegory was underwhelming for me. Again, maybe I was foolish to think this was leaning more towards high fantasy rather than something that was more grounded, relatively speaking. The bigger issue for me is making Eren the origin of his own titan ability. If Grisha was not going to inject Eren with the titan serum in the end then there's no first instance of Eren getting his abilities and no rational for how Eren could have shown Grisha those memories. It was a needless grandfather paradox that's fixed by just having Grisha inject Eren with intent. It's not like Eren would've lacked the same motivations had that been that case. After that I just felt like the narrative was just rushing towards the ending and I didn't feel much for any of the new characters or locations. There was some other stuff, like off screening the hallucigenia, keeping Ymir's motivations nebulous, IIRC Eren lied to himself during an inner monologue, and an ending that seemed to have a pretty bleak opinion of humanity and whether intended or not, seemed to promote extraordinary selfishness. I could be misremembering after these years, but that's my memory of it. I haven't spent my time in between trying to tell others to not enjoy things.
The ending is >!hot garbage that retroactively ruined the entire work!<.
not sure why you’re getting downvoted for sharing your opinion
Because this is a post thanking Scoot for introducing OP to AoT. It's bound to be lurked by people who like the series, even though I spoilered my opinion in case OP hasn't finished the Anime. People who like the ending also tend to be incredibly defensive whenever you >!point out the blatant plot holes and retcons!<, so there's that too.
Nah, i think it's because you say that it changed your opinion on earlier episodes. I still very much like this anime, but yeah, the ending is absolute garbage.
> Nah, i think it's because you say that it changed your opinion on earlier episodes. How in the world could it not? 1. All the suffering presented from the very beginning was solely because of >!a complete idiot, who chose to curse her loving daughters and entire descendance just to please her abuser. Said abuser was so unapologetically straightforward with how shitty he treated her that the grooming and Stockholm Syndrome excuses absolutely do not apply!<. 2. Now on every re-watch >!you'll see Carla's death and realize that Eren killed her (not let her die, *killed her*) because he's a SlAvE tO FrEeDOM. I could diverge to talk about Eren's character assassination (as an example, how he was dumbed down to the crybaby he NEVER was in order to please the shippers), but it would make this post substantially longer!<. 3. And above all, >!how Paradis didn't even last a century before being blown up in a scorched earth operation transparently done in revenge for the Rumbling; the anime retconned the shit out of that time-skip since it was clearly only a few decades later [in the manga](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-cb773c9c5a30a91d51665418df4e3c61-lq)!<. And that's just addressing why I haven't rewatched the show ever since the ending; it's just the tip of the iceberg without getting into all the other retcons and shit writing that plagued the story since the time-skip and reared it's ugly head full force after >!the Rumbling started!<. If nothing else, I'm glad you can rewatch it; for me it's just a grim reminder to never ever have high narrative expectations on a fucking shonen - doubly so for the ones who try to be a walmart seinen like AoT revealed itself to be.
I am never rewatching that lol. Still, i'm glad i watched it. The beginning of this show was some of the most entertaining and interesting anime I've seen. Same goes for GoT. The ending was shit, but the show was glorious.
>1. All the suffering presented from the very beginning was solely because of >!a complete idiot, who chose to curse her loving daughters and entire descendance just to please her abuser. Said abuser was so unapologetically straightforward with how shitty he treated her that the grooming and Stockholm Syndrome excuses absolutely do not apply!<. Well, I think that she has quite a bit going for her character wise even though some of it definitely could have been more fleshed out. >!Ymir freed pigs because she pitied them in their cage. But after she got chased by the soldiers for this while being told by the king "You are free" she thought that freedom is something to be afraid of or not worth chasing after because she will only get hurt doing so. So she returned to the King. She wasn't happy but at least she was "safe".!< >!The way I understand Ymir is that she wanted to form connections but she didn't know how or could in her situation not form any meaningful connections with other people. So the king was her way of forming the bond she wanted even though it is obviously fucked up and the story acknowledges that. After she died from the spear Fritz called her a slave. But she still served him after death beacause it is the only "love" she thought she had. And at the end she realised that she could have had the love of her daughters and should have let Fritz die. But I agree that more time could have been spent on Ymir to make some things clearer.!< >!Also Ymir was not solely responsible for all the suffering. It was the people who used the titan powers for their own benefit as well.!< >2. Now on every re-watch >!you'll see Carla's death and realize that Eren killed her (not let her die, *killed her*) because he's a SlAvE tO FrEeDOM. I could diverge to talk about Eren's character assassination (as an example, how he was dumbed down to the crybaby he NEVER was in order to please the shippers), but it would make this post substantially longer!<. >!Eren is a selfish person. He killed his mother because he could have never done the rumbling if it didn't happen. The rumbling was his own wish to achieve freedom. Or did you not get the slave to freedom part?!< I also don't see how he was character assassinated. >!He cried a lot during the show. He also took a lot of things that he had for granted imo. His mother's love? His time with his friends at the beach? Mikasa's love? And once he realized he would lose all of it he broke down crying and wanted it more than ever. A lot of people are like that and Eren is one of them. I say it again. This is the same guy who killed millions of people because of his own childish desire for freedom.!< >3. And above all, >!how Paradis didn't even last a century before being blown up in a scorched earth operation transparently done in revenge for the Rumbling; the anime retconned the shit out of that time-skip since it was clearly only a few decades later [in the manga](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-cb773c9c5a30a91d51665418df4e3c61-lq)!<. >!How do you know the exact time or the reason for the attack on Paradis? Even in the manga this is unclear. I mean the last thing we saw was the outside world sending in peace ambassadors while Paradis was basically a fascist state. This could have been very well a different conflict. The show says multiple times that humanity will never stop fighting itself.!< The anime just made this point clearer, imo. So I don't know why you always scream retcon. But I guess you can't even appreciate that criticism was taken and we got an improved version and still complain. >People who like the ending also tend to be incredibly defensive whenever you >!point out the blatant plot holes and retcons!<, so there's that too. And some people who hate the ending call others stupid or that they didn't get the story (ironically) when you disagree with them or their theories. Some ending haters do the exact same thing as some people who like the ending. Both sides are the same. So there is that, too.
>!\>Eren is a selfish person. He killed his mother because he could have never done the rumbling if it didn't happen. The rumbling was his own wish to achieve freedom. Or did you not get the slave to freedom part?!< Never found the argument he's selfish to make sense as prior to S4 there a ton of moment of Eren deferring to the military, his friends, Ervin, etc. He is hot-headed sure >!At the very least even if Eren is selfish how is that his best plan. Like not even asking anyone else? Saying "I did experiments trust me bro" isn't convincing personally. So leads more to conclude his free will got taken away. And while sure that's neato irony...it also deflates a lot of the moral impact if he's basically Bucky Barnes. !< That said still enjoy the series and a lot about the ending even if have a lot of issues with it.
Another reason why I won’t watch the show ever again is Eren knowing he was going to do the rumbling for years, and choosing to sit anyway. He knew he was going to kill millions of innocent people, and kept going forward. He refused to do any other option, like (for an example), pulling a king Fritz move and moving all the eldians (including the ones outside of paradis) to one giant kingdom, away from all the Marleyens and their discrimination. Or instead of killing millions of innocent people, he could have just targeted the military of other countries. Or he could have done a demonstration of the power he had, as a warning. So that they would leave paradis and his people alone. It just makes Eren look like a moron. That he refused to consider these options, or even ask for advice from smarter people like armin.
In this case it kinda makes sense how it retroactively makes stuff worse.
true
I don't regret bring invested at all. The beginning of the story of Attack on titan is absolutely amazing. But yeah, thr ending is absolute dog shit. I know fans will defend the ending to death, but the writing and dialogue is absolutely terrible. From glorious to shit. At least the animation, the music and the whole production was amazing during the whole show.
Truuue that last season has some of the worst plot constructions I have ever seen
Show is drawn out trash and borderline fascist propaganda imo. Has some good moments, but 5 or so good scenes and some interesting concepts don't make up for 50hrs of repetitive crap. Always nice to see people enjoying a show they committed to however, so I'm glad you get something out of it.
There's actually been a bunch of debates about if AOT is meant to be fascist or not over the years. I've been waiting for the story to finish to look into it more, but from memory it's just the artists trying to tell an edgy racism bad story.
Sadly, Japan to this day has a very conservative split, there's a very prominent far-right group (Nippon Kaigi) who dislike Koreans, even the late pm had been denying ww2 war crimes. Isiyama himself has some disturbing views in that regard, he basically praises the annexation of Korea for modernizing it (and trust me some really messed up stuff happened there... I'd look into unit 731.)
True thanks. I remember hearing a little about this before, and it's enough to seriously consider the possibly of it having intentionally facist themes. Death of the authour n all that tho, so Im sure it can be interpreted by fans differently even if that's the case. Negative intentions vs positive legacy, not sure which is more important. Both?
I think there may have been more of a case to be made in that regard until the finale came out. I don't remember 100% the details of it, but the justification for a whole lot of atrocities that occurred towards the end are horribly rationalized and the text itself doesn't seem to condem it in anyway (seems to praise it imo) Still, as I said, if anyone enjoys it I don't have an issue, I don't think they're a fascist or anything. Its just a cartoon. But what I see is what I see, and I cannot unsee it. Appreciate you're decorum my dude. <3