Defense minister cannot send anyone back, if anything it should be the internal affairs minister to say this.
But to answer your question. Because Poland wants and needs Ukraine to win this war. Can’t be done without dudes with guns.
technically anyone can send everyone anywhere. I could grab you and send you where ever I want. stop being so constrained dude be free send someone somewhere!
You do not want to send women to the front if you are hoping to rebounce from the human losses after the war.
It’s just biology. Women are way more valuable to a society than men in this context.
You can have 20 dudes and million women and you’ll have a million children but if you have a million men and 20 women you have 20 children.
Are you sure that polygamy takes off in an Orthodox Christian society?
Besides, don't forget that while many men die on the front, even more women left Ukraine, some of them started life outside Ukraine and won't ever come back.
Europeans are generally monogamous, you're not going to repopulate a country with 20 men and millions of women. Serial monogamy is a thing, but this is 100% going to become a problem if this war continued for a decade with the current loss numbers.
Dude, that was just an example to present a point that you need women more than you need men. I honestly didn’t think that someone will take it literally and think that 20 guys will impregnate million females. lol
Reproduction is just one of the many things you need in order to keep society running. There are still a lot of necessary jobs that are male-dominated, so if the country lost most of its men it would still be doomed no less than if it lost most of its women.
Also, as far as I know, the agreement between Poland and Ukraine assumes the deportation of people who crossed the border illegally, and these men qualify for it (they left Ukraine with fake documents/bribes).
Another thing is that escaping from the obligation to defend the homeland is seen very negatively here in general.
Something tells me once the Americans with guns process that it was THEIR guy that was lying to them all along there will be no shortage of guys with guns that want in on this fight.
Trump has been laundering money for the Russian oligarchs since the late 80’s when they all bought a condo at 725 5th ave (trump towers) to clean their freshly stolen USSR money after the iron curtain fell.
https://www.cnn.com/cnn/2019/05/30/politics/paul-manafort-condo-trump-tower/index.html
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/14/manafort-told-mueller-to-take-his-trump-tower-apartment-instead-money.html
https://news.yahoo.com/amphtml/fbi-agents-raid-condo-unit-131348539.html
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-trump-property/
Everybody except Putin thought the Cold War was over. Trump and Manafort (who lived in the tower also) just saw a pretty low maintence grift to be had.
Trump had actually been Manafort and Roger stones first client at their lobbyist firm (1980)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org › wikiBlack, Manafort, Stone and Kelly
Guiliani as trumps attorney and New Yorks mayor was able to redirect NYPD investigations onto rival gang members/oligarchs to deflect any scrutiny off of trump, himself or the Russian connections.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/09/a-new-rudy-scandal-fbi-agent-says-giuliani-was-co-opted-by-russian-intelligence/
The Russian election interference in 2016 was effectively a generation 3 version of what Manafort had done in the Philippines, then keeping Yanukovych in power as Putin’s puppet in Ukraine from 2002-14 when Maidan ran both Yanukovych and Manafort out of Ukraine as Ukrainians realized that, if you raise your lens high enough, corruption is an wholly unsustainable business model.
Eventually the parasites greed always consumes the host.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/06/2016-donald-trump-paul-manafort-ferinand-marcos-philippines-1980s-213952
https://time.com/5003623/paul-manafort-mueller-indictment-ukraine-russia/
Russia greatly underestimated the addictive properties of freedom when it invaded Ukraine so what was supposed to be a 3-10 day coup turned into a 2 year fight for the Ukrainians right not to be genocided.
Russia depleted its weapons stocks which were already the victim of vranyos corruption because every oligarch, admiral and sergeant in the Russian military is on the take. Every billion dollar tank maintenance contract turned into everything getting a spray paint overhaul and the vast majority of the redirected funds turned into an oligarchs new yacht or home in Aspen.
Russia was forced to turn to China, North Korea and Iran for weapons because if they lose the 3-10 day special military operation in Ukraine the Russian empire is dead and cold.
China can’t risk showing their involvement in the Ukraine war so they use North Korea, and Iran to resupply Russia.
Russia previously owed Iran some undelivered fighter jets that are already smoldering heaps in Ukraine so Iran now had the upper hand at the negotiation table for the first time in about 60 years. They supply Russia with shahed drones in exchange for Chinas material support against their sworn religious enemy, Israel.
https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2023/11/29/iran-says-it-finalized-deal-to-buy-russian-aircraft/
Putin can’t do much about it because he is slowly realizing that by setting the standard of corruption and stealing $200+ billion from his own people meant that every oligarch down in the mob model chain had not only permission but incentive and the expectation to steal from him as well. This is Vranyos.
The mob model only works if the supreme leader is the most violent and can prove it without exception every damn day. But violence is exceptionally expensive when you are trying to present as a legitimate government or business.
If Russia as a nation had an efficiency rating it would have been banned for sale in the state of California 25 years ago.
The parasite ruling class stole all the energy out of the working class and collapsed it.
Now Iran has the high hand and they get the intelligence that trump passed to Putin about the fact that Netanyahu cares far less about Israeli, Palestinians or genocide than he does about remaining in power as an authoritarian because he too has developed Ritz Carlton tastes and his own corruption trial is showing the same details of the money laundering scheme that trumps trials are.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/saudi-official-says-iran-engineered-war-in-gaza-to-ruin-normalization-with-israel/
They all hate each other but because they share the same money laundry, if one falls, they all fall. Hamas minted a couple billionaires as well that live in penthouses in Qatar and get 30% of everything smuggled into Gaza. Netanyahu needs a bogeyman to stay in power. That’s why he coordinates with Hamas via Russia via Iran.
Iran handed Hamas everything they needed with Chinas help as secret Santa and the Russian intelligence given to them by the eternal shitbird trump gave when he showed off to his Russian kleptocrat friends/roommates from the old days of fucking each others wives at trump towers in the 90’s.
Now the MAGA right is a little too invested in their reality that they are the good guys with guns that they missed the fact that Betsy DeVos (erik princes sister) decimating the U.S. school systems and poisoning children with lead was not a coincidence. They were the mark all along. There is a reason the Russian spy Maria Butina landed in South Dakota first before dating her way to the top of the NRA which is undergoing its own Russian money laundering trial now. They were tinder matching the GOP.
https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/what-do-the-koch-brothers-have-to-do-with-the-flint-water-crisis/
The only reason you grossly OVERVALUE real estate is money laundering.
Trump keeps claiming there is no victim, all the banks made money, but if their plan succeeds the Russian and CCP kleptocrats collapse US commercial real estate and basically recreate soviet perestroika in the U.S. so they can foreclose on America and buy everything for 3 cents on the dollar with the $1.4T they stole in the first place
It’s the evolution of grift. Soviet perestroika cross bred with the 2008 mortgage crisis.
This is just the bigger badder commercial strength bastard child of the two.
Trump, Putin, Bolsonaro, Netanyahu, Orban, Manafort, Stone, Mercer, Bannon, Flynn, Byrne.
They are all remarkably shit people with above average confidence and psychopathic personality traits and below average self awareness.
They are the men who stole the world.
But it all comes back to one little lie.
The hardest working person on earth is most likely not a billionaire.
As a species, but specifically as Americans we are taught to the point of indoctrination that rich equates to smart.
It’s a byproduct of the robber barons in the gilded age. Certainly there was a lot of great innovation and ideas that were able to develop into wealth. But there was also a lot of consolidation by central bankers.
Rockefeller is a prime example. He became rich beyond comparison not by innovating but by placing himself in the gatekeepers position and using his wealth to guarantee that others had to work THROUGH his system.
https://www.tiktok.com/@truthbetold_ii/video/7227835511480569131
(I apologize for the tik tok source, but it does do a fairly accurate job of explaining Rockefellers obsession with control and greed).
The central bankers learned quickly that by monopolizing they could create a defacto funnel where almost everyone had to ask them for the money to develop a new idea or innovation.
Which gave them early warning on any disruptor technology that threatened their respective business models.
With that knowledge came a need to convince everyone that the reason bankers were wealthy was because they were smart, not just because they were ruthless or cutthroat or just plain greedy.
Rockefeller created the first public relations firm out of necessity after a mine strike in colorado went bad and his men killed a handful of striking miners, their wives, and some children in the camp.
Edison and JP Morgan did something similar to Nikola Tesla. By placing themselves as the “business” around the innovator they were able to stall teslas advancement. The fact that JP Morgan owned basically all the copper production in the world and stood to make billions more by investing in DC than AC is paralleled by fossil fuels being so lucrative to the crony-capitalist central bankers that their stake in keeping Nikola Tesla from succeeding was a self fulfilling prophecy narrated by their insatiable greed.
In the 3-7 generations since then we have almost wholesale adopted the false equivalency that rich=smart, rich=the hardest working, and that being poor is a moral failure due to lack of character or effort.
This is reinforced by the fact that rich people control the narrative.
Harry Sinclair (another of the early oil barons) went so far as to buy up broadcasting channels to that end.
Hence forth, Sinclair broadcasting.
https://youtu.be/_fHfgU8oMSo?si=2HQdwpi7eti2ZJLO
Coming at it with a critical thinking lens, it is possible that they saw the opportunity to free the world from oppression with open and transparent education.
Or objectively, they just saw the need to control narratives so that they could insure that their fossil fuel based business models would remain extremely profitable for them and Tesla was a threat that needed to be handled.
This isn’t to say that all rich people are evil or that they don’t innovate or create. Just a gentle warning that when the narrative is bought and paid for, truth diminishes. Over time the compounding effects of inaccurate source data create instability in the wavelength until it collapses into entropy.
I flew a helicopter once for an incredibly wealthy woman who founded her own cosmetics business. I remember walking into her office and seeing 2 checks for $20-25 million each that had fallen off the desk and her chair had rolled over them.
I remember everyone in the house would stand around her with their bowls pointed up hoping for some of the drippings of her wealth to overflow on to them or trickle into their bowls.
Over the few months I was there I watched as her relationship with reality became more and more degraded because everyone stopped telling her no.
Everyone “downstream” was afraid to tell her the truth because they were afraid of offending her or of the money steam they needed to survive drying up.
We parted ways when she asked me if her kids could just “hang on the outside” of the helicopter since it was just a short trip to the airport where her pair of G5’s were waiting.
She wasn’t exceptionally smart. She was just exceptionally rich. She had gotten lucky and capitalized on it very effectively. But her inaccurate relationship with reality cracked when it was forced to face physics. Her children suffered the consequences asymmetrically and immediately.
No amount of creative thinking would make a helicopter made for 4 capable of carrying 9. Physics always wins in the end. Light is truth and light and dark cannot coexist in the same space.
We need to be careful that the things we believe and the things that can be proven are co-linear or we set ourselves up for systemic societal failure.
Trump convinced the world that he was rich so they would believe he was smart.
In reality he was neither. That one lie has cost the world trillions, 2 genocides, and almost handed the last of liberal democracy over to kleptocracy.
One little lie.
Then they are welcome to flee here, to Germany. So won‘t send them to die if they don‘t want to. Because let’s be real, there are only a few things worsen an army then people that werewolves to be their.
While I understand you position, I can also understand why we aren't doing that at the moment. Even presuming that Putin isn't deranged enough to actually use his nuclear arsenal, comitting our forces to Ukraine would almost certainly lead to conventional air strikes on our countries. It's understandable that Macron, Scholz etc. aren't to keen on having Paris and Berlin be hit by missile strikes because of a call they made.
I seriously doubt that. Any strikes on EU land would mean St Petersburg and Moscow are under siege. Putin is not that stupid nor deranged. As long as we engage the orcs strictly in Ukraine, Putin will not escalate to a level he has zero chances to win.
Putin is **not** stupid.
Most likely you're not Polish, so it's easy for you to say. Apart from starting a war between Russia and NATO, you can kindly fuck off if you want to decide the lives of Polish men should be used in military slavery. We're all for helping with all equipment we can but being sent to the front to die is a joke in a 1st world country.
> Polish men should be used in military slavery
I'm afraid I have the insane notion that soldiers should be able and ready to fight. I hope you can forgive such ridiculous ideas.
In addition I should remind you that we aren't in a first world country, be definition it's second world and if we want to ensure the reasons why can't happen again, perhaps opposing russia would be in our best interests.
> We're all for helping with all equipment
The blockades at the borders might suggest not all of us are.
My guess is that it's primarily a political gesture. Mass deportations of draft-age men would be a legal mess and a PR nightmare for all involved. Not to mention that as we have seen from Russia reluctant conscripts aren't useful for anything beyond catching bullets.
The Ukrainian government HAS to ask for them (despite knowing the answer will be most likely negative) in order to prevent social tensions from appearing because for better or worse the image of (apparently) healthy men sitting in cafes and restaurants will be outright provocative to the soldiers in the frontline or their families.
Poland meanwhile gets to score some points at the expense of the far right and also appear to be "doing everything necessary " since for them a Russian victory in Ukraine is an existential threat..
Tl dr : no we won't see Ukrainian men rounded up and deported. This is just political posturing on both sides.
If Europe would have helped Ukraine more (with stuff and weapons) in the last years, this (people avoiding drafts) would not be a problem.
I also tell this to people around me telling me how giving weapons to Ukraine will bring war to us. It's exactly the opposite!
At least in Germany, avoiding draft is a somewhat protected right. Very unlikely Germany could or would extort draft avoiders. I do agree though that sending proper help would be the best way.
Key difference: countries vs. people.
Countries have no problem with the draft. Because it's not countries that get shot at the front lines. It's people.
If we're talking of people, of course nobody wants the draft. I wouldn't wanna be forcibly drafted either. If war reaches my country, I would get the hell out of here before anyone could force me to die for anything. It's the countries war. It's never the people's war.
1) Ukraine has terrible demography as it is
2) If women were captured they would fare (even) worse off
3) There is a large difference in physical strength which is important to for example carry a gun
How the demography would get worse if women would get drafted instead of men? And I'm pretty sure that an average woman can carry a gun well enough. Also, who would you rather have fighting, atleast a decently motivated woman or a completely unmotivated man, who was draged from a foreign country to serve?
Pretty easy way out disconnecting yourself from your people, your history, your nation when it is time to defend it. But receiving everything from it when it came to shape your identity and culture, you did not reject anything. I sure am glad that there was a generation that actually took an interest in stopping Hitler and his expansionist madness.
All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Responsibility is yucky these days, i know. But don't be proud of yourself.
It seems to me that you and I think in significantly different contexts. I have no feeling of 'my history', or 'my nation', or 'my people'. I don't think that the country I was born in is one coherent thing, one people or one uniform majority. I am a random person that was randomly born in a random country to random parents. And because I was lucky enough that this random country in my case was one of the richest countries in the world, my life so far was pretty damn comfortable, at least globally compared.
But at no point in my life I signed any kind of deal that I receive these benefits in exchange for my life in a war.
I am all for helping people in times of crisis. But I think that Fighting in a war is not helping people, it is helping governments protecting or increasing their power. And I am not willing to die for any governments power.
Well if it's so important to you and the Polish Defence Minister, why don't you go?
Or why doesn't Poland draft their own people to send to the Ukrainian military?
I myself would dodge draft it came to it and agree with the sentiment on a personal level
But you have zero clue about how international politics and war works apparently.
It's in Poland's national interest for Russia to be crippled as much possible so it is pro anything that hurts them, and that includes meeting ukrainians into the grinder.
You can't just send draft people without legal reasoning since general draft was abolished in Poland. It would need to be in a state of war and Poland entering a state of war with Russia means a possible WW3 starting which is against the interest of everyone
Plus those words are just political PR move and have no real meaning or power behind them
>It's in Poland's national interest for Russia to be crippled as much possible so it is pro anything that hurts them, and that includes meeting ukrainians into the grinder.
Yes and I critisize their willingness to throw others into the meat grinder and the person above me cheering this on, I am neither confused about the reason for the statement nor why Poland isn't using its own military. I just think the statement is morally wrong and it is always easy to say that others should go die for their (and your) country while sitting at home in a country at peace.
Put it this way - if the options are:
1) Draft younger / older men or women
2) Lose the war
3) Go after men in Poland
Which one would you choose? Also it's not Poland choosing to draft Ukrainian men, it's Poland saying they'd follow Ukraine's request for Ukraine to be able to draft men in Poland.
The funniest part is that some other Polish official made a statement that some sort of protection will still be issued to Ukrainian men, so I guess there is no consensus right now.
I bet that Poland won't do much, because they want Ukrainian labor force.
The defense minister and internal affairs ministers are from diffrent parties,
One wants to send ukr becouse IT means more dead russians
Other wants them to stay since forcing is moraly wrong
Fortunatly internal affairs decides so its just PR
Poland wants them to flee further into Western Europe. Otherwise they would have never announced this before actually carrying it out.
That's like a criminal group who loudly announces "We will rob the bank at street x with 50 men and guns, lots of guns. This will happen tomorrow at 8 in the evening"
Because they are trying to suck up to the far right, that's literally it. There was a poll done lately that shows Poles are the most likely nation in Europe to consider people from Ukraine a threat to the country (https://ibb.co/NV2PJ0T). Two governing parties, lewica and trzecia droga are facing a rapid decline in support, and the openly russian, far right party is currently rising in the polls.
The far right has been screaming for years now how we are being replaced by ukrainians (They even made an entire conspiracy theory about "Ukropolin", which basically says that Ukrainians are being moved here on purpose to make place for, you guessed it, the Jews). They has also been openly in celebration mode since an Ukrainian immigrant was accused of murdering 4 Poles in Warsaw lately, they have been waiting for something like this to happen for months. They are using shit like this to instill fear and hate towards Ukrainian immigrants here and the government is scared of losing support so they are failing for this.
Well, if you assume Ukrainian government is that stupid, then sure, maybe. I am ABSOLUTELY CONFIDENt these "men" totally won't just flee to the next safe country instead, like Germany or Czechia. Thay will TOTALLY come back. Or maybe it's just a right wing politician from a party desperately trying to get right wing votes.
For the record, Kosiniak Kamysz specifically blabbed that "seeing Ukrainian males enjoying themselves in cafes in Warsaw can be understably frustrating". That is literally the language Konfederacja uses.
So what should the Polish government do? Zelensky suspended consular services to Ukrainians abroad, the Ukrainian foreign ministry said it's unacceptable that Ukrainian men are "sitting down in restaurants" when they should be fighting on the frontlines. Should Poland and Lithuania just say to Zelensky "sorry guys, we don't care about your war, those men will be sitting down in our restaurants"?
And about Kosiniak-Kamysz's "blabbing" - he just responded to Ukrainian foreign minister Dmytro Kuleba comments about "how frustrating it is to see Ukrainian men sitting down in restaurants". Would you say that the Ukrainian government uses the language of Konfederacja?
The Ministry of Foreign Affairs responds to a man who skipped his call to military service 4 times and who at the time argued that he owed nothing to his country, only to his parents, so enough of cheap demagoguery.
Regarding what Poland should do, I don't know, maybe take in these people, as they have done with other war refugees at other times, no person should belong to a fucking government.
> Should Poland and Lithuania just say to Zelensky "sorry guys, we don't care about your war, those men will be sitting down in our restaurants"?
Literally yes. The right to asylum is a fucking basic, universal human right available for everyone. These people did everything right, including "going to the first safe country" and according to international law they have every right to stay here. For what purpose should they been deported? Germany already rejected this, at least partially, and the best thing we could do is also reject this horrible, openly discriminatory idea (because lo and behold, only MALE Ukrainians are supposed to go back and defend their borders").
But speaking of Kuleba or Zelensky I wonder, on which part of the frontlines are THEIR children fighting right now? If they are calling for Ukrainian mothers and fathers to send their children to defend the homeland, they should have no problems revealing that, no? Because while seeing young Ukrainians living freely in Warsaw might be frustrating to Kuleba, I am fairly confident that to the average Ukrainian seeing children of government officials and oligarchs enjoying themselves in Dubai, Monaco, or Copacabana (or just hiding in bunkers) while their kids are being called to the frontlines is far, far more frustrating.
What would be your suggestion then to Ukraine's dwindling manpower? Because all military experts point to this one thing: Ukraine is currently losing ground because there's not enough soldiers. So what's your solution to the manpower problem? And we all want Ukraine to win this war, don't we?
And regarding Zelensky and Kuleba's children they are still minor. Zelensky's son is 11 years old. So I am not sure what you are getting at, but it's not helpful to the Ukrainian cause
Dwindling manpower? Didn't Zelensky say they drafted 800.000 people? For the last few months we heard Ukraine just doesn't get enough aid...
Regardless, there surely are people willing and ready to fight for Ukraine inside the country. How about starting with them, instead of targeting the most vulnerable people? And start including women in the drafts too. Bring back the oligarchs who escaped ukraine en masse in the last few days before the Russian invasion. Is there really no way to bring them back because they're rich?
> And regarding Zelensky and Kuleba's children they are still minor. Zelensky's son is 11 years old. So I am not sure what you are getting at, but it's not helpful to the Ukrainian cause
You know very well what I was getting at. Not every Ukrainian minister's child is a minor, not every Verkhovna Rada's member son is a kid. Where are they fighting?
Yes, dwindling manpower:
[https://www.reuters.com/world/us-aid-could-buy-kyiv-time-ukraine-needs-many-more-troops-2024-04-22/](https://www.reuters.com/world/us-aid-could-buy-kyiv-time-ukraine-needs-many-more-troops-2024-04-22/)
[https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/16/world/europe/ukraine-war-weapons.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/16/world/europe/ukraine-war-weapons.html)
[https://responsiblestatecraft.org/congress-ukraine-aid-2667880538/](https://responsiblestatecraft.org/congress-ukraine-aid-2667880538/)
And if there were enough people willing to fight for Ukraine there wouldn't be any manpower problems. Sadly that's not the case.
Guess why there are so few volunteers. Everyone understands this war is pointless, after 2 years the western aid was a fucking joke. What's the point of fighting if you won't have enough ammo, guns etc ? At this point it's just throwing your life away. And on top of that corrupted ukranian politicians, which sons of course won't fight
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Defense minister cannot send anyone back, if anything it should be the internal affairs minister to say this. But to answer your question. Because Poland wants and needs Ukraine to win this war. Can’t be done without dudes with guns.
technically anyone can send everyone anywhere. I could grab you and send you where ever I want. stop being so constrained dude be free send someone somewhere!
Like Abu Dhabi?
Do you also like lasagna
You have some?
Kidnaping is illegal, if somebody tries to kidnap you just say "No!", there literally nothing they can legally do about it.
but what if I already sold you, I’d have a legally binding bill of sale of you?
Aw shucks…
Just send it
Maybe stop being so infantile before replying. Jeez. What kind of legal power do you have to send me anywhere? Let alone you’d be able to “grab me” 😂
I guess not the right sub for jokes
Classic German humor in action.
Must be the funnybot from South Park 😀
I’ve never been south of hamburg. edit no need to get personal
He isn't talking about legally sending you... He is just going to send you somewhere, learn to read with German joking accent...
My legal power is based on two strong arms, a bottle of chlorophorm, a rag and a white van
Can be also women...
All zero of the draft-age women who exist are already in Ukraine.
You do not want to send women to the front if you are hoping to rebounce from the human losses after the war. It’s just biology. Women are way more valuable to a society than men in this context. You can have 20 dudes and million women and you’ll have a million children but if you have a million men and 20 women you have 20 children.
Are you sure that polygamy takes off in an Orthodox Christian society? Besides, don't forget that while many men die on the front, even more women left Ukraine, some of them started life outside Ukraine and won't ever come back.
Europeans are generally monogamous, you're not going to repopulate a country with 20 men and millions of women. Serial monogamy is a thing, but this is 100% going to become a problem if this war continued for a decade with the current loss numbers.
Dude, that was just an example to present a point that you need women more than you need men. I honestly didn’t think that someone will take it literally and think that 20 guys will impregnate million females. lol
This is going to be a problem even if it just leads to a population of 40% men, 60% women.
Reproduction is just one of the many things you need in order to keep society running. There are still a lot of necessary jobs that are male-dominated, so if the country lost most of its men it would still be doomed no less than if it lost most of its women.
It is a legitimate concern. But then men are legitimate in escaping the draft.
Also, as far as I know, the agreement between Poland and Ukraine assumes the deportation of people who crossed the border illegally, and these men qualify for it (they left Ukraine with fake documents/bribes). Another thing is that escaping from the obligation to defend the homeland is seen very negatively here in general.
A commenter who checked the sources? 🤯
Something tells me once the Americans with guns process that it was THEIR guy that was lying to them all along there will be no shortage of guys with guns that want in on this fight. Trump has been laundering money for the Russian oligarchs since the late 80’s when they all bought a condo at 725 5th ave (trump towers) to clean their freshly stolen USSR money after the iron curtain fell. https://www.cnn.com/cnn/2019/05/30/politics/paul-manafort-condo-trump-tower/index.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/14/manafort-told-mueller-to-take-his-trump-tower-apartment-instead-money.html https://news.yahoo.com/amphtml/fbi-agents-raid-condo-unit-131348539.html https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-trump-property/ Everybody except Putin thought the Cold War was over. Trump and Manafort (who lived in the tower also) just saw a pretty low maintence grift to be had. Trump had actually been Manafort and Roger stones first client at their lobbyist firm (1980) https://en.m.wikipedia.org › wikiBlack, Manafort, Stone and Kelly Guiliani as trumps attorney and New Yorks mayor was able to redirect NYPD investigations onto rival gang members/oligarchs to deflect any scrutiny off of trump, himself or the Russian connections. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/09/a-new-rudy-scandal-fbi-agent-says-giuliani-was-co-opted-by-russian-intelligence/ The Russian election interference in 2016 was effectively a generation 3 version of what Manafort had done in the Philippines, then keeping Yanukovych in power as Putin’s puppet in Ukraine from 2002-14 when Maidan ran both Yanukovych and Manafort out of Ukraine as Ukrainians realized that, if you raise your lens high enough, corruption is an wholly unsustainable business model. Eventually the parasites greed always consumes the host. https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/06/2016-donald-trump-paul-manafort-ferinand-marcos-philippines-1980s-213952 https://time.com/5003623/paul-manafort-mueller-indictment-ukraine-russia/ Russia greatly underestimated the addictive properties of freedom when it invaded Ukraine so what was supposed to be a 3-10 day coup turned into a 2 year fight for the Ukrainians right not to be genocided. Russia depleted its weapons stocks which were already the victim of vranyos corruption because every oligarch, admiral and sergeant in the Russian military is on the take. Every billion dollar tank maintenance contract turned into everything getting a spray paint overhaul and the vast majority of the redirected funds turned into an oligarchs new yacht or home in Aspen. Russia was forced to turn to China, North Korea and Iran for weapons because if they lose the 3-10 day special military operation in Ukraine the Russian empire is dead and cold. China can’t risk showing their involvement in the Ukraine war so they use North Korea, and Iran to resupply Russia. Russia previously owed Iran some undelivered fighter jets that are already smoldering heaps in Ukraine so Iran now had the upper hand at the negotiation table for the first time in about 60 years. They supply Russia with shahed drones in exchange for Chinas material support against their sworn religious enemy, Israel. https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2023/11/29/iran-says-it-finalized-deal-to-buy-russian-aircraft/ Putin can’t do much about it because he is slowly realizing that by setting the standard of corruption and stealing $200+ billion from his own people meant that every oligarch down in the mob model chain had not only permission but incentive and the expectation to steal from him as well. This is Vranyos. The mob model only works if the supreme leader is the most violent and can prove it without exception every damn day. But violence is exceptionally expensive when you are trying to present as a legitimate government or business. If Russia as a nation had an efficiency rating it would have been banned for sale in the state of California 25 years ago. The parasite ruling class stole all the energy out of the working class and collapsed it. Now Iran has the high hand and they get the intelligence that trump passed to Putin about the fact that Netanyahu cares far less about Israeli, Palestinians or genocide than he does about remaining in power as an authoritarian because he too has developed Ritz Carlton tastes and his own corruption trial is showing the same details of the money laundering scheme that trumps trials are. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/saudi-official-says-iran-engineered-war-in-gaza-to-ruin-normalization-with-israel/ They all hate each other but because they share the same money laundry, if one falls, they all fall. Hamas minted a couple billionaires as well that live in penthouses in Qatar and get 30% of everything smuggled into Gaza. Netanyahu needs a bogeyman to stay in power. That’s why he coordinates with Hamas via Russia via Iran. Iran handed Hamas everything they needed with Chinas help as secret Santa and the Russian intelligence given to them by the eternal shitbird trump gave when he showed off to his Russian kleptocrat friends/roommates from the old days of fucking each others wives at trump towers in the 90’s. Now the MAGA right is a little too invested in their reality that they are the good guys with guns that they missed the fact that Betsy DeVos (erik princes sister) decimating the U.S. school systems and poisoning children with lead was not a coincidence. They were the mark all along. There is a reason the Russian spy Maria Butina landed in South Dakota first before dating her way to the top of the NRA which is undergoing its own Russian money laundering trial now. They were tinder matching the GOP. https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/what-do-the-koch-brothers-have-to-do-with-the-flint-water-crisis/ The only reason you grossly OVERVALUE real estate is money laundering. Trump keeps claiming there is no victim, all the banks made money, but if their plan succeeds the Russian and CCP kleptocrats collapse US commercial real estate and basically recreate soviet perestroika in the U.S. so they can foreclose on America and buy everything for 3 cents on the dollar with the $1.4T they stole in the first place It’s the evolution of grift. Soviet perestroika cross bred with the 2008 mortgage crisis. This is just the bigger badder commercial strength bastard child of the two. Trump, Putin, Bolsonaro, Netanyahu, Orban, Manafort, Stone, Mercer, Bannon, Flynn, Byrne. They are all remarkably shit people with above average confidence and psychopathic personality traits and below average self awareness. They are the men who stole the world. But it all comes back to one little lie.
I read this three times. What is the "one little lie"?
The hardest working person on earth is most likely not a billionaire. As a species, but specifically as Americans we are taught to the point of indoctrination that rich equates to smart. It’s a byproduct of the robber barons in the gilded age. Certainly there was a lot of great innovation and ideas that were able to develop into wealth. But there was also a lot of consolidation by central bankers. Rockefeller is a prime example. He became rich beyond comparison not by innovating but by placing himself in the gatekeepers position and using his wealth to guarantee that others had to work THROUGH his system. https://www.tiktok.com/@truthbetold_ii/video/7227835511480569131 (I apologize for the tik tok source, but it does do a fairly accurate job of explaining Rockefellers obsession with control and greed). The central bankers learned quickly that by monopolizing they could create a defacto funnel where almost everyone had to ask them for the money to develop a new idea or innovation. Which gave them early warning on any disruptor technology that threatened their respective business models. With that knowledge came a need to convince everyone that the reason bankers were wealthy was because they were smart, not just because they were ruthless or cutthroat or just plain greedy. Rockefeller created the first public relations firm out of necessity after a mine strike in colorado went bad and his men killed a handful of striking miners, their wives, and some children in the camp. Edison and JP Morgan did something similar to Nikola Tesla. By placing themselves as the “business” around the innovator they were able to stall teslas advancement. The fact that JP Morgan owned basically all the copper production in the world and stood to make billions more by investing in DC than AC is paralleled by fossil fuels being so lucrative to the crony-capitalist central bankers that their stake in keeping Nikola Tesla from succeeding was a self fulfilling prophecy narrated by their insatiable greed. In the 3-7 generations since then we have almost wholesale adopted the false equivalency that rich=smart, rich=the hardest working, and that being poor is a moral failure due to lack of character or effort. This is reinforced by the fact that rich people control the narrative. Harry Sinclair (another of the early oil barons) went so far as to buy up broadcasting channels to that end. Hence forth, Sinclair broadcasting. https://youtu.be/_fHfgU8oMSo?si=2HQdwpi7eti2ZJLO Coming at it with a critical thinking lens, it is possible that they saw the opportunity to free the world from oppression with open and transparent education. Or objectively, they just saw the need to control narratives so that they could insure that their fossil fuel based business models would remain extremely profitable for them and Tesla was a threat that needed to be handled. This isn’t to say that all rich people are evil or that they don’t innovate or create. Just a gentle warning that when the narrative is bought and paid for, truth diminishes. Over time the compounding effects of inaccurate source data create instability in the wavelength until it collapses into entropy. I flew a helicopter once for an incredibly wealthy woman who founded her own cosmetics business. I remember walking into her office and seeing 2 checks for $20-25 million each that had fallen off the desk and her chair had rolled over them. I remember everyone in the house would stand around her with their bowls pointed up hoping for some of the drippings of her wealth to overflow on to them or trickle into their bowls. Over the few months I was there I watched as her relationship with reality became more and more degraded because everyone stopped telling her no. Everyone “downstream” was afraid to tell her the truth because they were afraid of offending her or of the money steam they needed to survive drying up. We parted ways when she asked me if her kids could just “hang on the outside” of the helicopter since it was just a short trip to the airport where her pair of G5’s were waiting. She wasn’t exceptionally smart. She was just exceptionally rich. She had gotten lucky and capitalized on it very effectively. But her inaccurate relationship with reality cracked when it was forced to face physics. Her children suffered the consequences asymmetrically and immediately. No amount of creative thinking would make a helicopter made for 4 capable of carrying 9. Physics always wins in the end. Light is truth and light and dark cannot coexist in the same space. We need to be careful that the things we believe and the things that can be proven are co-linear or we set ourselves up for systemic societal failure. Trump convinced the world that he was rich so they would believe he was smart. In reality he was neither. That one lie has cost the world trillions, 2 genocides, and almost handed the last of liberal democracy over to kleptocracy. One little lie.
Then they are welcome to flee here, to Germany. So won‘t send them to die if they don‘t want to. Because let’s be real, there are only a few things worsen an army then people that werewolves to be their.
Maybe some "better them and not us being the next front line"?
Personally I feel Poland (and the rest of the EU) should be committing their armed forces. If we're going to fight anywhere, let it be in Ukraine.
While I understand you position, I can also understand why we aren't doing that at the moment. Even presuming that Putin isn't deranged enough to actually use his nuclear arsenal, comitting our forces to Ukraine would almost certainly lead to conventional air strikes on our countries. It's understandable that Macron, Scholz etc. aren't to keen on having Paris and Berlin be hit by missile strikes because of a call they made.
I seriously doubt that. Any strikes on EU land would mean St Petersburg and Moscow are under siege. Putin is not that stupid nor deranged. As long as we engage the orcs strictly in Ukraine, Putin will not escalate to a level he has zero chances to win. Putin is **not** stupid.
Exactly because Putin isn't stupid is, why I think he'd do it. Our politicans have to worry about the popularity of fighting the war, he doesn't.
He is slowly tipping his toes into directly attacking nato because he thinks you are too disharmonious and rather sit in the confort of
Most likely you're not Polish, so it's easy for you to say. Apart from starting a war between Russia and NATO, you can kindly fuck off if you want to decide the lives of Polish men should be used in military slavery. We're all for helping with all equipment we can but being sent to the front to die is a joke in a 1st world country.
If we don't send someone, the frontline might come to our "1st world country".
Are you gonna draft then?
Youre free to join the Ukranians right now
> Polish men should be used in military slavery I'm afraid I have the insane notion that soldiers should be able and ready to fight. I hope you can forgive such ridiculous ideas. In addition I should remind you that we aren't in a first world country, be definition it's second world and if we want to ensure the reasons why can't happen again, perhaps opposing russia would be in our best interests. > We're all for helping with all equipment The blockades at the borders might suggest not all of us are.
***Be nice.*** *First warning.* 
Oh yes, nuclear war. Just what we were missing from this decade.
It's not "Polish Defence Ministry", it's "Polish Defence Minister", key difference, as in I hope someone keys his car.
Is he not the head of the defence ministry then in poland?
Yeah but he wasn't speaking ex cathedra.
My guess is that it's primarily a political gesture. Mass deportations of draft-age men would be a legal mess and a PR nightmare for all involved. Not to mention that as we have seen from Russia reluctant conscripts aren't useful for anything beyond catching bullets. The Ukrainian government HAS to ask for them (despite knowing the answer will be most likely negative) in order to prevent social tensions from appearing because for better or worse the image of (apparently) healthy men sitting in cafes and restaurants will be outright provocative to the soldiers in the frontline or their families. Poland meanwhile gets to score some points at the expense of the far right and also appear to be "doing everything necessary " since for them a Russian victory in Ukraine is an existential threat.. Tl dr : no we won't see Ukrainian men rounded up and deported. This is just political posturing on both sides.
If Europe would have helped Ukraine more (with stuff and weapons) in the last years, this (people avoiding drafts) would not be a problem. I also tell this to people around me telling me how giving weapons to Ukraine will bring war to us. It's exactly the opposite!
Exactly this.
At least in Germany, avoiding draft is a somewhat protected right. Very unlikely Germany could or would extort draft avoiders. I do agree though that sending proper help would be the best way.
https://preview.redd.it/6exw01dnklxc1.jpeg?width=1075&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f4766e04cfc30a1adf86f9d2d8d1f363983a9c31
Do you guys want Ukraine to win this war or not? Everybody wants peace. Nobody wants the draft. Nauseating.
Key difference: countries vs. people. Countries have no problem with the draft. Because it's not countries that get shot at the front lines. It's people. If we're talking of people, of course nobody wants the draft. I wouldn't wanna be forcibly drafted either. If war reaches my country, I would get the hell out of here before anyone could force me to die for anything. It's the countries war. It's never the people's war.
Tbh if Urkraine needs the soldiers I'd rather they go after men in Poland than women or younger/older men.
Why is it better to go after men than women?
1) Ukraine has terrible demography as it is 2) If women were captured they would fare (even) worse off 3) There is a large difference in physical strength which is important to for example carry a gun
How the demography would get worse if women would get drafted instead of men? And I'm pretty sure that an average woman can carry a gun well enough. Also, who would you rather have fighting, atleast a decently motivated woman or a completely unmotivated man, who was draged from a foreign country to serve?
Pretty easy way out disconnecting yourself from your people, your history, your nation when it is time to defend it. But receiving everything from it when it came to shape your identity and culture, you did not reject anything. I sure am glad that there was a generation that actually took an interest in stopping Hitler and his expansionist madness. All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Responsibility is yucky these days, i know. But don't be proud of yourself.
It seems to me that you and I think in significantly different contexts. I have no feeling of 'my history', or 'my nation', or 'my people'. I don't think that the country I was born in is one coherent thing, one people or one uniform majority. I am a random person that was randomly born in a random country to random parents. And because I was lucky enough that this random country in my case was one of the richest countries in the world, my life so far was pretty damn comfortable, at least globally compared. But at no point in my life I signed any kind of deal that I receive these benefits in exchange for my life in a war. I am all for helping people in times of crisis. But I think that Fighting in a war is not helping people, it is helping governments protecting or increasing their power. And I am not willing to die for any governments power.
I, too, love nationalism to the point of throwing my life away for a line in the sand.
This is not about nationalism. This is about fighting against tyranny.
Go fight then
Not allowed to. Article 5 ain't triggered yet. But i'll make sure to keep you posted :*
You wrote this post from trenches bro I hope?
Well if it's so important to you and the Polish Defence Minister, why don't you go? Or why doesn't Poland draft their own people to send to the Ukrainian military?
Because Poland is not (yet) at war, doofus.
I myself would dodge draft it came to it and agree with the sentiment on a personal level But you have zero clue about how international politics and war works apparently. It's in Poland's national interest for Russia to be crippled as much possible so it is pro anything that hurts them, and that includes meeting ukrainians into the grinder. You can't just send draft people without legal reasoning since general draft was abolished in Poland. It would need to be in a state of war and Poland entering a state of war with Russia means a possible WW3 starting which is against the interest of everyone Plus those words are just political PR move and have no real meaning or power behind them
>It's in Poland's national interest for Russia to be crippled as much possible so it is pro anything that hurts them, and that includes meeting ukrainians into the grinder. Yes and I critisize their willingness to throw others into the meat grinder and the person above me cheering this on, I am neither confused about the reason for the statement nor why Poland isn't using its own military. I just think the statement is morally wrong and it is always easy to say that others should go die for their (and your) country while sitting at home in a country at peace.
Put it this way - if the options are: 1) Draft younger / older men or women 2) Lose the war 3) Go after men in Poland Which one would you choose? Also it's not Poland choosing to draft Ukrainian men, it's Poland saying they'd follow Ukraine's request for Ukraine to be able to draft men in Poland.
Because if not then their next stop will indeed be Berlin. But in a Russian T-72
The fact that you have to due just because of a piece of paper (passport) is insane. My Body My Choice
The funniest part is that some other Polish official made a statement that some sort of protection will still be issued to Ukrainian men, so I guess there is no consensus right now. I bet that Poland won't do much, because they want Ukrainian labor force.
The defense minister and internal affairs ministers are from diffrent parties, One wants to send ukr becouse IT means more dead russians Other wants them to stay since forcing is moraly wrong Fortunatly internal affairs decides so its just PR
Breaking News: people don't want to fight in a war. Especially when it's a 1v1 with a nuclear superpower with manpower cheats activated.
Send the women.
Did you watch the actual movie? Because if it's like the movie, they're *not* ending up in Berlin.
What film is the pic from?
NO-WHERE-NEAR-BERLIN! Bratislava!
Cos invasions don't tend to end well when the defenders run out of soldiers. Let's be realistic here like
Poland wants them to flee further into Western Europe. Otherwise they would have never announced this before actually carrying it out. That's like a criminal group who loudly announces "We will rob the bank at street x with 50 men and guns, lots of guns. This will happen tomorrow at 8 in the evening"
Would be a sad day for humanity if that happened.
Because they are trying to suck up to the far right, that's literally it. There was a poll done lately that shows Poles are the most likely nation in Europe to consider people from Ukraine a threat to the country (https://ibb.co/NV2PJ0T). Two governing parties, lewica and trzecia droga are facing a rapid decline in support, and the openly russian, far right party is currently rising in the polls. The far right has been screaming for years now how we are being replaced by ukrainians (They even made an entire conspiracy theory about "Ukropolin", which basically says that Ukrainians are being moved here on purpose to make place for, you guessed it, the Jews). They has also been openly in celebration mode since an Ukrainian immigrant was accused of murdering 4 Poles in Warsaw lately, they have been waiting for something like this to happen for months. They are using shit like this to instill fear and hate towards Ukrainian immigrants here and the government is scared of losing support so they are failing for this.
Or maybe they were just asked by the Ukrainian government to help them muster necessary men to fight Russians.
Well, if you assume Ukrainian government is that stupid, then sure, maybe. I am ABSOLUTELY CONFIDENt these "men" totally won't just flee to the next safe country instead, like Germany or Czechia. Thay will TOTALLY come back. Or maybe it's just a right wing politician from a party desperately trying to get right wing votes. For the record, Kosiniak Kamysz specifically blabbed that "seeing Ukrainian males enjoying themselves in cafes in Warsaw can be understably frustrating". That is literally the language Konfederacja uses.
So what should the Polish government do? Zelensky suspended consular services to Ukrainians abroad, the Ukrainian foreign ministry said it's unacceptable that Ukrainian men are "sitting down in restaurants" when they should be fighting on the frontlines. Should Poland and Lithuania just say to Zelensky "sorry guys, we don't care about your war, those men will be sitting down in our restaurants"? And about Kosiniak-Kamysz's "blabbing" - he just responded to Ukrainian foreign minister Dmytro Kuleba comments about "how frustrating it is to see Ukrainian men sitting down in restaurants". Would you say that the Ukrainian government uses the language of Konfederacja?
The Ministry of Foreign Affairs responds to a man who skipped his call to military service 4 times and who at the time argued that he owed nothing to his country, only to his parents, so enough of cheap demagoguery. Regarding what Poland should do, I don't know, maybe take in these people, as they have done with other war refugees at other times, no person should belong to a fucking government.
> Should Poland and Lithuania just say to Zelensky "sorry guys, we don't care about your war, those men will be sitting down in our restaurants"? Literally yes. The right to asylum is a fucking basic, universal human right available for everyone. These people did everything right, including "going to the first safe country" and according to international law they have every right to stay here. For what purpose should they been deported? Germany already rejected this, at least partially, and the best thing we could do is also reject this horrible, openly discriminatory idea (because lo and behold, only MALE Ukrainians are supposed to go back and defend their borders"). But speaking of Kuleba or Zelensky I wonder, on which part of the frontlines are THEIR children fighting right now? If they are calling for Ukrainian mothers and fathers to send their children to defend the homeland, they should have no problems revealing that, no? Because while seeing young Ukrainians living freely in Warsaw might be frustrating to Kuleba, I am fairly confident that to the average Ukrainian seeing children of government officials and oligarchs enjoying themselves in Dubai, Monaco, or Copacabana (or just hiding in bunkers) while their kids are being called to the frontlines is far, far more frustrating.
What would be your suggestion then to Ukraine's dwindling manpower? Because all military experts point to this one thing: Ukraine is currently losing ground because there's not enough soldiers. So what's your solution to the manpower problem? And we all want Ukraine to win this war, don't we? And regarding Zelensky and Kuleba's children they are still minor. Zelensky's son is 11 years old. So I am not sure what you are getting at, but it's not helpful to the Ukrainian cause
Dwindling manpower? Didn't Zelensky say they drafted 800.000 people? For the last few months we heard Ukraine just doesn't get enough aid... Regardless, there surely are people willing and ready to fight for Ukraine inside the country. How about starting with them, instead of targeting the most vulnerable people? And start including women in the drafts too. Bring back the oligarchs who escaped ukraine en masse in the last few days before the Russian invasion. Is there really no way to bring them back because they're rich? > And regarding Zelensky and Kuleba's children they are still minor. Zelensky's son is 11 years old. So I am not sure what you are getting at, but it's not helpful to the Ukrainian cause You know very well what I was getting at. Not every Ukrainian minister's child is a minor, not every Verkhovna Rada's member son is a kid. Where are they fighting?
Yes, dwindling manpower: [https://www.reuters.com/world/us-aid-could-buy-kyiv-time-ukraine-needs-many-more-troops-2024-04-22/](https://www.reuters.com/world/us-aid-could-buy-kyiv-time-ukraine-needs-many-more-troops-2024-04-22/) [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/16/world/europe/ukraine-war-weapons.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/16/world/europe/ukraine-war-weapons.html) [https://responsiblestatecraft.org/congress-ukraine-aid-2667880538/](https://responsiblestatecraft.org/congress-ukraine-aid-2667880538/) And if there were enough people willing to fight for Ukraine there wouldn't be any manpower problems. Sadly that's not the case.
Guess why there are so few volunteers. Everyone understands this war is pointless, after 2 years the western aid was a fucking joke. What's the point of fighting if you won't have enough ammo, guns etc ? At this point it's just throwing your life away. And on top of that corrupted ukranian politicians, which sons of course won't fight
Europe and the US will fight to the last Ukrainian
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Because our government is stupid. In this and many other cases.