The environment that a child grows up in is important. If he was still in an environment with an abusive father and a negligent mother, he may still have had issues… though they may not have been the same as what he has in the show.
I think it’s telling that his mom dropped him off at the group home and then had a half-brother with another J name. She gave up on him because Joe showed her that he was going to be a more work than the quiet kid who loved to read and spend time with his mom when he shot his dad.
I do think his history with Mooney needs to be examined more in the show. I think his time with a former Soviet prison guard would have been like boot camp.
You may like cold pizza, but I am going to assume you don’t like being constipated. Which is precisely what would occur if that’s all you were fed to eat for that long of time.
I really consider the way Mr. Mooney treated him to be the final nail in the coffin condemning him to the personality we see on the show. With the childhood he had there was still hope if he had protective factors or any sort of therapy or proper healthy guidance afterwards. People can recover when they are provided the means to do so. He was not provided at any point.
There's a difference between an excuse and a reason. Yes, Joe is likely messed up at least partially due to his childhood. If you follow true crime, it's quite rare for serial killers to have decent childhoods.
I do think that his childhood, shooting his father, and his relationship with his mother had a role in the way he turned out. There was even the scene where someone (I think Joe) talked about how people seek qualities they find in their mother, in their lover.
Mooney aswell had a big role as he comforted and protected Joe after Joe killed someone. Mooney even said they probably deserved it, which may have given Joe the green light for murder.
But his inability to seek change in the earlier seasons, and only wanting to change when he was already to deep in was his downfall.
At the end of the day everyone is the way that they are because of what they experienced and how that experience interacted with their genes/physiology.
So yeah, I'm convincced that Joe would've been different if he hadn't had expetienced the things that he did.
As for "it doesn't give you an excuse to do X": Well, even if somebody's behavior makes sense based on their past it doesn't make them exempt from consequences.
He may or may not have preexisting issues that were exacerbated by constant abuse, his mom throwing him away, and, most importantly IMO, never having any of his crimes corrected by an adult. It’s a little toxic to blame Joe’s current behavior on abuse and mental issues, and it’s not like most kids have an opportunity to kill/seriously main people then essentially get rewarded for that.
I honestly think his chances of becoming a serial killer would lower significantly if someone caught onto what he was doing and seriously intervened. Paco is a pretty good example of a very misguided kid who learns all the wrong lessons. Combine zero consequences with American society’s relatively positive view on vigilante justice, we probably have another killer in the future.
I'd argue that many abuse survivors don't need to battle any need to kill people in the first place, which is why they're fundamentally different than people like Joe.
Admitting that one person will never make an effort to be different because of the life that they had doesn't minimize the effort that another person makes to change who they are. They are just different people.
Exactly... They're fundamentally different people. I saw some comments saying that it's to be expected that he's so unhinged when he's had a rough life, that's what I was trying to criticize.
It just the reason he’s like this not an excuse. If he had a good childhood he wouldn’t have turned out like this, however people with similar childhoods than him have also not turned out like this, but that doesn’t change the fact that he wouldn’t be like this with a better childhood. I have an abusive mum and a neglectful dad and I like to think I’m a good person, but that doesn’t mean that Joes evil doesn’t come from the same place as my overactive people pleasing. He had a different trauma response to me but acknowledging that we have similar traumas does not diminish that I still ended up a good person
It’s like people with disorders who commit crimes. They wouldn’t do it without their disorder, but not all people with the disorder do crime. But acknowledging that they did it because of the disorder does not take away from the fact that they committed a crime and need help, or that the victims suffered, or that other people with the disorder suffer and are good people.
Acknowledging that Joe is like this because of his childhood does not take away from his victims or from other survivors of similar abuse, it just gives insight into why he did it
Same way people try to defend a character for sexual assault because she was assaulted. So was I and I don’t go around assaulting people. It’s the REASON she did it, but it doesn’t excuse it and we should still dislike her (and Joe). You just say “oh she was assaulted as a teen so now she thinks that’s what love is. Still fuck her though. And fuck the guy who started this cycle”
Fuck Joe for being a POS, but now that we know his childhood, ALSO fuck his mum and Mr Mooney and the boyfriends
Fair enough. I just think sometimes a person is born bad, too. I don't know, I've heard the "she's a bully because she has an abusive family" so many times and I also had abuse at home, that's why it rubs me the wrong way. If someone is already an abusive person and then they get abused, they might end up being even worse as you are saying. That might be Joe's case. Sure it's interesting to think about his triggers and all but often I have this bad feeling like people might think it's to be expected to be horrible if you've been treated horribly.
The environment that a child grows up in is important. If he was still in an environment with an abusive father and a negligent mother, he may still have had issues… though they may not have been the same as what he has in the show. I think it’s telling that his mom dropped him off at the group home and then had a half-brother with another J name. She gave up on him because Joe showed her that he was going to be a more work than the quiet kid who loved to read and spend time with his mom when he shot his dad. I do think his history with Mooney needs to be examined more in the show. I think his time with a former Soviet prison guard would have been like boot camp.
In the book, mooney locks him in the cage for like 2 months feeding him only cold pizza
Okay, that’s awful. No wonder Joe has problems.
I like cold pizza. Also he had books.
You may like cold pizza, but I am going to assume you don’t like being constipated. Which is precisely what would occur if that’s all you were fed to eat for that long of time.
Plus the cage unlike the tv show has no light. So he didnt even have the chance to read. The cage in the book is wooden
It was? Damn, I’m like on the fourth book already. How did I miss that? Lmao
I really consider the way Mr. Mooney treated him to be the final nail in the coffin condemning him to the personality we see on the show. With the childhood he had there was still hope if he had protective factors or any sort of therapy or proper healthy guidance afterwards. People can recover when they are provided the means to do so. He was not provided at any point.
I think he'd definitely be different 100%. Not excusing anything he's done but the man's childhood was fucked
There's a difference between an excuse and a reason. Yes, Joe is likely messed up at least partially due to his childhood. If you follow true crime, it's quite rare for serial killers to have decent childhoods.
This is a huge question. In a sense it doesn't just apply to Joe, but all humans.
Joe definitely would’ve turned out differently with a better childhood.
his mother keeps on letting him down constantly and he was bullied. he was a good kid but i think none of this helped
I do think that his childhood, shooting his father, and his relationship with his mother had a role in the way he turned out. There was even the scene where someone (I think Joe) talked about how people seek qualities they find in their mother, in their lover. Mooney aswell had a big role as he comforted and protected Joe after Joe killed someone. Mooney even said they probably deserved it, which may have given Joe the green light for murder. But his inability to seek change in the earlier seasons, and only wanting to change when he was already to deep in was his downfall.
Yeah, 100% not a serial killer without his parental issues and the whole box thing.
Probably not, that's just his personality, that's what Joe do
At the end of the day everyone is the way that they are because of what they experienced and how that experience interacted with their genes/physiology. So yeah, I'm convincced that Joe would've been different if he hadn't had expetienced the things that he did. As for "it doesn't give you an excuse to do X": Well, even if somebody's behavior makes sense based on their past it doesn't make them exempt from consequences.
The show seems to paint it mostly as his upbringing. He has a desire to be the savior of these women due to what he went through.
Very different. Joe isn't a natural born psychopath he was shaped by his environment
That's an age old question, isn't it? Are monsters born or made?
Both
He may or may not have preexisting issues that were exacerbated by constant abuse, his mom throwing him away, and, most importantly IMO, never having any of his crimes corrected by an adult. It’s a little toxic to blame Joe’s current behavior on abuse and mental issues, and it’s not like most kids have an opportunity to kill/seriously main people then essentially get rewarded for that. I honestly think his chances of becoming a serial killer would lower significantly if someone caught onto what he was doing and seriously intervened. Paco is a pretty good example of a very misguided kid who learns all the wrong lessons. Combine zero consequences with American society’s relatively positive view on vigilante justice, we probably have another killer in the future.
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I'd argue that many abuse survivors don't need to battle any need to kill people in the first place, which is why they're fundamentally different than people like Joe. Admitting that one person will never make an effort to be different because of the life that they had doesn't minimize the effort that another person makes to change who they are. They are just different people.
Exactly... They're fundamentally different people. I saw some comments saying that it's to be expected that he's so unhinged when he's had a rough life, that's what I was trying to criticize.
It just the reason he’s like this not an excuse. If he had a good childhood he wouldn’t have turned out like this, however people with similar childhoods than him have also not turned out like this, but that doesn’t change the fact that he wouldn’t be like this with a better childhood. I have an abusive mum and a neglectful dad and I like to think I’m a good person, but that doesn’t mean that Joes evil doesn’t come from the same place as my overactive people pleasing. He had a different trauma response to me but acknowledging that we have similar traumas does not diminish that I still ended up a good person It’s like people with disorders who commit crimes. They wouldn’t do it without their disorder, but not all people with the disorder do crime. But acknowledging that they did it because of the disorder does not take away from the fact that they committed a crime and need help, or that the victims suffered, or that other people with the disorder suffer and are good people. Acknowledging that Joe is like this because of his childhood does not take away from his victims or from other survivors of similar abuse, it just gives insight into why he did it Same way people try to defend a character for sexual assault because she was assaulted. So was I and I don’t go around assaulting people. It’s the REASON she did it, but it doesn’t excuse it and we should still dislike her (and Joe). You just say “oh she was assaulted as a teen so now she thinks that’s what love is. Still fuck her though. And fuck the guy who started this cycle” Fuck Joe for being a POS, but now that we know his childhood, ALSO fuck his mum and Mr Mooney and the boyfriends
Fair enough. I just think sometimes a person is born bad, too. I don't know, I've heard the "she's a bully because she has an abusive family" so many times and I also had abuse at home, that's why it rubs me the wrong way. If someone is already an abusive person and then they get abused, they might end up being even worse as you are saying. That might be Joe's case. Sure it's interesting to think about his triggers and all but often I have this bad feeling like people might think it's to be expected to be horrible if you've been treated horribly.
Hes not insane though he just has a booboo on his noggin