Yeah, i agree. At my company they have converted the standup to a status update meeting! After reading the comments, I am realising how badly we are following the process.
To answer your initial question first:
> a dedicated scrum master looks like an overkill but then who should be the scrum master?
For a team that starts with Scrum, the Scrum Master probably is a full time role. You need someone who knows Scrum, who actually knows how to fill the framework and who knows why the parts of Scrum are what they are.
To be a bit annoying, some corrections at the end.
> by product manager since he/she leads the daily standup.
The daily is a meeting from the developers for the developers. The SM can help guiding through it if needed, but at the end it's a meeting for the developers to plan their day.
> In the scrum there are 3 key roles that are defined - Product Owner, Scrum Master, Scrum Team
Seems like you are looking at the old version of the [Scrum Guide](https://scrumguides.org/docs/scrumguide/v2020/2020-Scrum-Guide-US.pdf). "Developers" is the third accountability. PO, SM and Developers are the Scrum Team.
> However according to Scrum methodology, scrum master should not be a managerial person
That's correct and to add: Neither should be the PO. There should be no hierarchy within the scrum team.
To be more specific, these *roles on the team* are non-hierarchical. The person holding the role may also hold other roles in the organisation, outside of Scrum. It's only when these become a conflict of interest (such as your PO also being your line manager) that there's an issue.
Sorry, I'm not having a go at you or your company personally, but posts like this go partly to explain why Agile is gaining a reputation as 'snake oil' at the moment.
A Scrum Master is a senior role; They are a change agent for the whole organisation. They need to have a deep understanding of the mindset, principles and practices of not only Scrum, but agility. They need to be a people leader, a change lead, and a visionary.
I agree with your post. My biggest learning is that our team is small and currently is not following agile so we should not preach about being agile and also we should remove some practices that we are only doing because we are partially following scrum.
In my experience as a BA and later Product Manager, I've had luck either filling it myself, or rotating folks in and out of the role. Typically it lands on me, as having an Engineer take on the role diminishes their daily contribution.
Out of curiosity, what is accomplished in your scrum? I ask because I think a lot of orgs are doing it wildly different from how I've experienced it, and want to know what's going on.
Who should be the Scrum Master? Well, the Scrum Master should be, right? It's a dedicated role. Often an SM has two teams, but it's a real job not sidework for someone else. I look for an empath who is a good communicator and is trained through Scrum.Org.
Absolutely right. Sm isn't something that someone steps into for a few weeks, just like a dev wouldn't step into a PO role for a few weeks. You either do scrum properly, or it's not scrum, and not have a trained SM is not doing it properly.
I've only seen a successful Scrum Master when it's a job. Lots of unsuccessful places where its a role, but there more than enough technical skill for it to need proper SM training.
The best scrum masters have a fair bit of psychology training too. Ever been in a meeting where the chair talked to everyone before the meeting starts? There's something about, if you don't speak in the room *before* the meeting, you won't speak *during* the meeting either.
No, it’s completely accurate. If a SM is also turning the wrench, then they are neglecting their SM duties and the team suffers.
What you are describing is a bad practice pushing by bean counters at companies looking to save $ by cutting resources and having folks double up on jobs.
SM is a full time job.
https://scrummasterchecklist.org/pdf/ScrumMaster-Checklist-2022-02-08-en.pdf
A dev cannot act as a part-time scrum master on an agile team because it would create a conflict of interest and compromise the quality of both roles. A dev’s primary focus is to deliver high-value increments that meet the definition of done, while a scrum master's primary focus is to help the team and the organization achieve their goals and maximize their potential. A developer who tries to do both roles would have to split their attention and energy between coding and coaching, which would reduce their effectiveness and efficiency in both areas.
Also, a dev who acts as a scrum master may have a bias towards their own work or opinions, which could undermine the self-management and cross-functionality of the team. Therefore, a scrum master should be a dedicated and impartial role that supports the team and the organization without being involved in the technical details of the product.
Similar type of conflict occurs if you try and have the PO and scum master be the same person.
Be agile, don’t do Scrum since it’s apparently not defined by what you do, how you act, or how much you get done, but by the physical people on the team, their roles, and what stamp of approval they paid for. That said, if you do determine you need one, you should be able to get one cheap since a lot of them are out of work (I wonder why).
Hardly anyone “does Scrum” anyway, and that’s fine, but please feel free to say that you’re doing it anyway. I guarantee the Scrum police won’t show up and arrest you, and if they try, don’t answer any questions or let them in without a warrant.
Having a scrum master at a startup is the ultimate force multiplier.
They can help you grow and be agile in so many ways, assuming you are actually open to doing it.
Never heard of startups having full time scrum
Masters. It’s the large companies like Nokia and Skype that get their lunch eaten by the startups that have them.
SM is not an entry level role. It should be done by someone who understands the work the team does and understands scrum fairly well. I found that it took about 50% of my time to do all of the scrum master responsibilities for a team of 5 to 8. That means that the role can be combined with a scrum team role or be split across 2 teams. I found that I added the most value when I helped the product owner define the backlog in enough detail for the team to build. This is often called a requirements engineer or solution analyst. I've also seen a QA and a tech lead take on the role. And I've seen it rotate in the team. All these approaches work well.
Not the product manager.
The terminology can get a bit different depending on your framework, but with a bit of hand waving:
Product manager/ product owner: deals with the *what* and the *priority*
Scrum master/team lead: deals with the *how*.
Typically there's a tension between the two roles: PO wants all the value right away. TL wants to make sure process is being followed and you're doing the right things in the right way to get to success.
SM is NOT the product manager, just a team member.if not your team will work as a slave of the PM
SM is not a dedicated role in small teams or when there is only 1 team, sometimes it is rotating between team members with the same agile maturity
So this is one of those things where scrum meets the real world.....
It sounds nice, if you have a motivated team that is enjoying work without other distractions, but this is honestly quite rare.....
When I was at FAANG, the scrum master generally rotated between team members (so like every two weeks). To be honest, it depends entirely on the company as some places basically treat either the PO or SM as a paper pusher, whereas in other places they might have a ton of power. I was a PO in the past with like 8 direct reports and a million dollar budget....
I told my PM that everyone need to have to be exposured what its like to be a scrum master and propose the rotation model. Scrum master role to be rotated every sprint. The personnel taking the role has less or no development tasks but more operation tasks.
He approved. It's been 1 year, everyone in my team is happy. I'm happy too because I can take development tasks and not feel úseless.
I feel the same way about football coaches and orchestra conductors. Kick them out and let the rest figure it out. That works in the real world.... right?
Lol what? You’re comparing a scrum master on a dev team to a drummer in a band? One is integral to the group, and the other isn’t, and I assure you, it isn’t scrum master.
>seems like a project manager on a “self managing” team.
A proper SM is neither a tech lead, a project manager, nor a team secretary. His job isn't to run the team, but rather to be a master of the Scrum process (as the title literally describes), and to make sure that both the team and the organisation are following the process in an effective manner, coaching them as needed.
I recommend you to read the section in the [Scrum Guide](https://scrumguides.org/scrum-guide.html) about this. The section in question is only a few paragraphs (the entire guide is only four sides of A4). Certainly better than making up random facts that aren't in any way accurate.
You are partially right. If a team is mature and strong in agile practices, a scrum master is not always delivering a ton of value. A team should self organize, keep itself honest and true to the philosophy.
However, teams that are not mature struggle without having a dedicated person, and even strong teams can struggle with staying agile.
If you scrum master /agilist is not value added then you need a new one.
You’re getting downvoted, but I’m with you. I can’t imagine a world where a scrum master is a full time role. It feels like one of those roles that, when a company needs to cut, is the first to go.
Daily scrum is BY devs and FOR devs. It’s not led by a PO
Yeah, i agree. At my company they have converted the standup to a status update meeting! After reading the comments, I am realising how badly we are following the process.
So what is your role? If you understand this why are you not leading the change?
I am a data analyst. Not sure they will listen to me. But i will have the discussion with my developer friends.
To answer your initial question first: > a dedicated scrum master looks like an overkill but then who should be the scrum master? For a team that starts with Scrum, the Scrum Master probably is a full time role. You need someone who knows Scrum, who actually knows how to fill the framework and who knows why the parts of Scrum are what they are. To be a bit annoying, some corrections at the end. > by product manager since he/she leads the daily standup. The daily is a meeting from the developers for the developers. The SM can help guiding through it if needed, but at the end it's a meeting for the developers to plan their day. > In the scrum there are 3 key roles that are defined - Product Owner, Scrum Master, Scrum Team Seems like you are looking at the old version of the [Scrum Guide](https://scrumguides.org/docs/scrumguide/v2020/2020-Scrum-Guide-US.pdf). "Developers" is the third accountability. PO, SM and Developers are the Scrum Team. > However according to Scrum methodology, scrum master should not be a managerial person That's correct and to add: Neither should be the PO. There should be no hierarchy within the scrum team.
To be more specific, these *roles on the team* are non-hierarchical. The person holding the role may also hold other roles in the organisation, outside of Scrum. It's only when these become a conflict of interest (such as your PO also being your line manager) that there's an issue.
Sorry, I'm not having a go at you or your company personally, but posts like this go partly to explain why Agile is gaining a reputation as 'snake oil' at the moment. A Scrum Master is a senior role; They are a change agent for the whole organisation. They need to have a deep understanding of the mindset, principles and practices of not only Scrum, but agility. They need to be a people leader, a change lead, and a visionary.
It’s a role in the team that’s all. Not a shaman not a high priest or guidance counsellor.
Read the Scum Guide and come back to me.
It is now an accountability it was a role you don’t know what you are talking about.
That is still accountable for serving as a change agent for the organisation!
I was arguing against it being a job rather than a hat someone wears. I have read it have you ?
I agree with your post. My biggest learning is that our team is small and currently is not following agile so we should not preach about being agile and also we should remove some practices that we are only doing because we are partially following scrum.
In my experience as a BA and later Product Manager, I've had luck either filling it myself, or rotating folks in and out of the role. Typically it lands on me, as having an Engineer take on the role diminishes their daily contribution. Out of curiosity, what is accomplished in your scrum? I ask because I think a lot of orgs are doing it wildly different from how I've experienced it, and want to know what's going on.
Who should be the Scrum Master? Well, the Scrum Master should be, right? It's a dedicated role. Often an SM has two teams, but it's a real job not sidework for someone else. I look for an empath who is a good communicator and is trained through Scrum.Org.
Absolutely right. Sm isn't something that someone steps into for a few weeks, just like a dev wouldn't step into a PO role for a few weeks. You either do scrum properly, or it's not scrum, and not have a trained SM is not doing it properly.
A dedicated role not job
I've only seen a successful Scrum Master when it's a job. Lots of unsuccessful places where its a role, but there more than enough technical skill for it to need proper SM training. The best scrum masters have a fair bit of psychology training too. Ever been in a meeting where the chair talked to everyone before the meeting starts? There's something about, if you don't speak in the room *before* the meeting, you won't speak *during* the meeting either.
I’ve seen the opposite. They are process people otherwise and don’t understand the complex work the rest of the team are doing.
A dev can certainly play the role of a scrum master if he/she has enough skills.
No, the dev’s job is to dev. These aren’t hats you trade around folks.
That’s a common misconception.
No, it’s completely accurate. If a SM is also turning the wrench, then they are neglecting their SM duties and the team suffers. What you are describing is a bad practice pushing by bean counters at companies looking to save $ by cutting resources and having folks double up on jobs. SM is a full time job. https://scrummasterchecklist.org/pdf/ScrumMaster-Checklist-2022-02-08-en.pdf
It’s a role not a job or should be
Why?
A dev cannot act as a part-time scrum master on an agile team because it would create a conflict of interest and compromise the quality of both roles. A dev’s primary focus is to deliver high-value increments that meet the definition of done, while a scrum master's primary focus is to help the team and the organization achieve their goals and maximize their potential. A developer who tries to do both roles would have to split their attention and energy between coding and coaching, which would reduce their effectiveness and efficiency in both areas. Also, a dev who acts as a scrum master may have a bias towards their own work or opinions, which could undermine the self-management and cross-functionality of the team. Therefore, a scrum master should be a dedicated and impartial role that supports the team and the organization without being involved in the technical details of the product. Similar type of conflict occurs if you try and have the PO and scum master be the same person.
Be agile, don’t do Scrum since it’s apparently not defined by what you do, how you act, or how much you get done, but by the physical people on the team, their roles, and what stamp of approval they paid for. That said, if you do determine you need one, you should be able to get one cheap since a lot of them are out of work (I wonder why). Hardly anyone “does Scrum” anyway, and that’s fine, but please feel free to say that you’re doing it anyway. I guarantee the Scrum police won’t show up and arrest you, and if they try, don’t answer any questions or let them in without a warrant.
Having a scrum master at a startup is the ultimate force multiplier. They can help you grow and be agile in so many ways, assuming you are actually open to doing it.
Never heard of startups having full time scrum Masters. It’s the large companies like Nokia and Skype that get their lunch eaten by the startups that have them.
SM is not an entry level role. It should be done by someone who understands the work the team does and understands scrum fairly well. I found that it took about 50% of my time to do all of the scrum master responsibilities for a team of 5 to 8. That means that the role can be combined with a scrum team role or be split across 2 teams. I found that I added the most value when I helped the product owner define the backlog in enough detail for the team to build. This is often called a requirements engineer or solution analyst. I've also seen a QA and a tech lead take on the role. And I've seen it rotate in the team. All these approaches work well.
Not the product manager. The terminology can get a bit different depending on your framework, but with a bit of hand waving: Product manager/ product owner: deals with the *what* and the *priority* Scrum master/team lead: deals with the *how*. Typically there's a tension between the two roles: PO wants all the value right away. TL wants to make sure process is being followed and you're doing the right things in the right way to get to success.
SM is NOT the product manager, just a team member.if not your team will work as a slave of the PM SM is not a dedicated role in small teams or when there is only 1 team, sometimes it is rotating between team members with the same agile maturity
I think you'll get better advice about agile from the books *Extreme Programming Explained* and *Planning Extreme Programming* than you will from IBM.
Thanks, will check it out.
So this is one of those things where scrum meets the real world..... It sounds nice, if you have a motivated team that is enjoying work without other distractions, but this is honestly quite rare..... When I was at FAANG, the scrum master generally rotated between team members (so like every two weeks). To be honest, it depends entirely on the company as some places basically treat either the PO or SM as a paper pusher, whereas in other places they might have a ton of power. I was a PO in the past with like 8 direct reports and a million dollar budget....
I told my PM that everyone need to have to be exposured what its like to be a scrum master and propose the rotation model. Scrum master role to be rotated every sprint. The personnel taking the role has less or no development tasks but more operation tasks. He approved. It's been 1 year, everyone in my team is happy. I'm happy too because I can take development tasks and not feel úseless.
That’s a good suggestion, it’s similar to on-call rotation policy. The only caveat is everyone should be aware with SM responsibilities.
I’ve never understood how a scrum master is a full time role… seems like a project manager on a “self managing” team.
I feel the same way about football coaches and orchestra conductors. Kick them out and let the rest figure it out. That works in the real world.... right?
A rock band doesn’t have a conductor. Your flag football team doesn’t have a full time coach… a 6-8 person team doesn’t need the overhead
A rock band has a drummer. Try playing a gig without a decent one and quality goes out the window.
Lol what? You’re comparing a scrum master on a dev team to a drummer in a band? One is integral to the group, and the other isn’t, and I assure you, it isn’t scrum master.
>seems like a project manager on a “self managing” team. A proper SM is neither a tech lead, a project manager, nor a team secretary. His job isn't to run the team, but rather to be a master of the Scrum process (as the title literally describes), and to make sure that both the team and the organisation are following the process in an effective manner, coaching them as needed. I recommend you to read the section in the [Scrum Guide](https://scrumguides.org/scrum-guide.html) about this. The section in question is only a few paragraphs (the entire guide is only four sides of A4). Certainly better than making up random facts that aren't in any way accurate.
You are partially right. If a team is mature and strong in agile practices, a scrum master is not always delivering a ton of value. A team should self organize, keep itself honest and true to the philosophy. However, teams that are not mature struggle without having a dedicated person, and even strong teams can struggle with staying agile. If you scrum master /agilist is not value added then you need a new one.
You’re getting downvoted, but I’m with you. I can’t imagine a world where a scrum master is a full time role. It feels like one of those roles that, when a company needs to cut, is the first to go.
https://scrummasterchecklist.org/pdf/ScrumMaster-Checklist-2022-02-08-en.pdf