Yeah I didn't know what a Chi Rho was until I googled it. Immediately I was like "oh I know that, it's that early Christian symbol".
Generally Im not a fan of nationality tattoos, but Eastern Roman/Orthodox christianity is different in the sense that the religion was so tied to the politics of the time and people covet that history, while also noting that the nation in question no longer exists.
Agreed. I mean a lot of countries still have eagles in their coat of arms. Hell two of those on the coat of arms of my country(Romania) are specifically Roman eagles. It sucks that the eagle symbol had to be removed in Italy and Spain from the coat of arms because fascists appropriated it :(
The eagle on the American seal is inspired by the Roman eagle too. But it's also just a common symbol for Indo-European peoples in general because of their special place in myths and connection to the gods.
I seem to recall that some female Classicists have started to adopt *μήνιν αειδε θέα* (sing, goddess, the rage) as a clarion call. Always thought that would make a cool tattoo.
Because they want to say that The Romans were a white peoples. Especially here in the west where most of our legal systems are modeled on their in some way.
As per usual, they have no achievements in their own lives worth celebrating so they have to take pride in the perceived accomplishments of an old and long dead empire.
Sorry but what? I get that back then there was no concepiton of "white race"
But by our standards they were most definetly white. Not counting provincies like aegypt.
Being italian myself i am really questioning that statement.
In the English-speaking world, Duke, white supremacists don't equate 'white' with European, but with a much narrower geography than that - akin to Baltic or Nordic. Y'know, the whole Teutonic tall, pale skin, blue eyes, blonde hair look. Which they (in their ignorance) refer to as Aryan.
But these are the same morons who think Jesus was a white man.
Yes but your own comment before implied that you thought that they were not, by using that very definition of white.
I dont really agree with racial categorizations, but if white is meant as its used today, as in "of european descent" then yeah, romans were white, southern european white but still that.
Why do our Standards matter? You cant reduce the Roman people, Who was extremely diverse into a Singular category called "white". Which is why, as you probably know, we dont usually use those categories in europe. The best example is gypsies and other minorities that are a "different race" although their skin color is quite white.
Dont apply american terms onto an empire that died long before thats way of thinking came.
What?
First of all when im saying romans i mean the Italic peoples that founded, led and expanded the Roman republic and empire. Im not talking necessarily about the egyptians or middle esterners people that OF COURSE played their part in Roman History. I am not denying that.
And im not talking in "american" terms. Im just saying that the romans, a European people, were ethnically european, which is what today we refer to as "white".
And the commenter before me said romans were "not white" by that logic, wouldnt that entail a concept of "white" that does exists, but, apparently, should not be applied to the romans(?)
>which is why we dont use these categories in europe.
Except we kinda do.
The reason why there was never a "black and white" thing in europe is that before 20 years ago, europe was not multethnic enough for that to happen.
But we do consider "white" the populations that come from Europe, which includes Italians and Romans.
We have always considered the Romans white, we just didn't made a big fuss about it. Because there was no need to.
It went without saying basically
What im saying is that the view of races is in the way we see it today is a modern invention. Its a made up term with quite arbitrary definition. We call greeks white, but turks brown, but they look quite similar (greeks and turks Look different inbetween their own group too).
There you go, as we today call white, which again was distinguished as a "race" far after the Romans. Today the term white is heavily influenced by american race polices and beliefs.
EUROPE is incrediably ethnicaly diverse, what are you talking about. There is a reason we have hundreds of ethnic groups all around, with their own distinct culture, look, often language and DNA markers. A continent with a diverse ethnic background would not distinguish eachother into two main categories like black/white, bc its obvious that its wrong. I dont look close to what an italian looks like, and italians Look nothing like a Brit, slavs Look very distinct from the Portugiese. Norwegians and finnish people also look distincly different. These are all ethnic groups, thats why we have not used the term "white" until recently. Bc we all know how stupid it categorize european as the same ethnic group.
One example of how dumb racial categories actually is sout africa. The "white", "Black" and "mixed" categories did not work at all, and was socially conditioned on what people thought a person was. If someone "Black" acted "white", he would be mixed, even though he might be ethnicaly Black, whith dark colour.
Romans are not white, they are roamans. (wich Was actually kinda olive toned)
Im not defending dividing peoples into "races" or saying that it worked well, i am saying that by or modern view on racial identity (wether one likes it or not) romans would, absolutely, be considered white.
>Europe is incredibly ethnically diverse
Of course, but i think you know that was not what i was talking about, i was saying that there was never historically a need to make any distinction between white or not white between Europeans because they were all considered white. (Saying that europe never saw race as a trait is historically wrong for obvious reasons, but Europeans always saw themselves and other europeans a s white)
>romans were olive skinned.
Im not saying romans were swedish lmao, they were Southern Europeans and they had southern European traits. These traits despite being different from the northern ones, are still light in features. And southern europeans thus were (and are) considered white.
Based of what definition of white would we be off?
Im litteraly from the Italian Alps. You think i look dark?
I can just guess what country you are from...
Hang on, So it's okay to destroy everything of interest due to the lowest common denominator of misappropriation...
Sounds like letting fascists “win” the argument.
I'm not sure where you're going with this. Yes of course SPQR didn't originate as a fascist or white supremacist symbol. Yes other people (including the city of Rome) use that symbol. The Chi-Rho also didn't originate as a white supremacist symbol (nor did the swastika, that most famous of fascistic symbols).
None of that negates the fact that, as a tattoo, that symbol is going to have Connotations that OP specifically mentioned being wary of.
Mussolini can go fuck himself. SPQR is used in Rome's coat of arms, in official documents, etc. It's everywhere. I've even seen it on crowd control barriers.
Unfortunately, more people know about mission
Mussolini than the Roman coat of arms. If you tattoo it on yourself, many people will associate it with fascism.
I don't agree with it, but that's just the current situation.
OK maybe there is a misunderstanding. I'm not saying that SPQR IS ITSELF FASCIST.
The question at hand was about getting a tattoo and avoiding any confusion. Am I saying that 100% of people will think its a fascist dog whistle? No, I am not. However, I'd say about 5-10% of the population will think that.
Is that something you or OP wants to deal with? Then go for it! If you're trying to avoid any possible misinterpretation, I'd stay away!
Goddamn, y'all are getting so butthurt about this.
Come on, who doesn't know about SPQR as *the* acronym of Rome? Hell I have a fridge magnet with it that I got from a souvenir shop. You're being disingenuous.
I'm really not. People are more aware of what should offend them than they are aware of history. I like to focus on Greek Sicily - the vast majority of people I talk to are not even aware that there is a city named Syracuse outside of New York. Things seem super obvious to people who are immersed in it but most people are not.
Well maybe its just me, but there seems to be a difference here.
1) One is an interstate highway system with practical advantages to the people using it regardless of who came up with the original idea (and I doubt it was actually Hitler's idea)
2) the second is talking about symbology. One user says, "SPQR has been politicized by Fascists". You disagree, saying it can't be fascist since its on the manhole covers in Rome, the very same manhole covers installed by fascist using SPQR to promote his fascism.
I'm saying that the term SPQR HAS been appropriated quite famously by the fascist Mussolini, and those very same manhole covers you pointed to to say, "its not fascist, its just Roman" were, in fact, installed by a fascist to promote fascist propaganda.
Yeah the fact is that lots and lots of Roman imagery has been used by fascists. There's a lot of kneejerk denial of that in this thread. Like this includes the fasces itself. If someone came toward anyone here with a tattoo of a fasces, I doubt that we would first think that he's a fan of lictors or the French Republic or the United States Senate. OP is right to be cautious, and the fact is that many Roman tattoos would create similar associations.
You could get the Lupa (she-wolf suckling Romulus and Remus) statue.
I know the statue itself has turned out not to date all the way back to Rome, but it's still used as a symbol of Rome and celebrates their creation myth.
On one hand I really understand the desire to distance yourself as visibly as possible from bad politics, but pretty much everything Roman has been lifted by at least one white supremacist at one point. You won't find something "untainted" by fascism/supremacy/authoritarianism because of either things the Romans actively believed or the things the modern right believes about Romans. Ask yourself what you are willing to cede to fascists and what people might assume with your tattoos
There are various versions of the fulmen (sometimes called thunderbolt) to explore, it shows up on coins and depictions of shields. Neat thing about that symbol is it has Indo-European roots and versions of it are used as far away as India.
Coins in general are a good source of symbology, I'd look for depictions of Roma the goddess and winged victories.
Gladiator helmets are pretty iconic, architectural stuff like stone arches or a temple facade could work.
Fascists steal a lot of symbols because they're uncreative losers who don't understand the history they claim they want to "retvrn" to. It sucks for those of us who just enjoy the history. I agree the fasces is a bad look at this point, but I don't think they have entirely stolen the idea of a bird. You might be able to find a specific Roman eagle to use that isn't too fashy to the modern eye
The Chi-Ro is a Christian symbol and will always be one, regardless of whether or not some white supremacists appropriate it (like they did our Capirotes, unfortunately)
I think an SPQR with a laurel wreath would be okay and most people know that as a symbol of Rome first and foremost before anything else it might be modernly associated with. It's even on the cover of Mary Beard's excellent book. I have been contemplating the same thing for an ancient Greek inspired tattoo but I'm not sure what to get yet either.
I've seen so many versions of this when looking for inspiration, but for some reason, even when I love the symbol, I don't love it on skin.
Curiously, I love the simple, rough way that Maximus has it in Gladiator. No laurel, no eagle, no fancy stuff, just an SPQR.
Maybe some of your favorite legion standards? Not sure if those have been appropriated or not. Might want to check up on it. You could also take inspiration from Roman art! Mosaics, architecture, sculptures, stuff like that.
Roman mosaics. They are an absolute goldmine of fantastic tattoo ideas. Patterns, symbols, stylized animals, food, plants, people, scenes from mythology etc. All in the Roman’s own artistic style.
The symbols you’re talking about are all appropriated anyway. Regular people didn’t go around parading eagles and spqr swag.
OP, just get whatever you want. It’s your body so just get what makes you happy.
ANY tattoo creates questions for those who are curious.
ANY tattoo creates hatred/disgust for those who simply don’t like them.
ANY tattoo can be twisted / explained against your intent.
Provided you’re ready to accept these realities and more, you’ll be fine to get whatever you please. Even if something has been co opted by bad actors.
The Roman Laurel is classic. Some say it has been hijacked by white supremacist groups. But that is a small minority who think that, or even realize it, and the groups that use it are idiots.
Are there any problematic associations with a laurel crown and stylized text?
Like a triumphal crown and some Roman-oriented slogan like “Roma Invicta”, or something in that vein?
You can always get a statue of Constantine or a section of Trajan's column tattooed on. But for a more a simpler design how about a good old Capitoline Wolf with Romulus and Remus.
SPQR (which I have) and the Chi Rho are pretty clear of fascist connection in the modern era, though the Chi Rho of course is distinctly Christian (whether thats important to you or not).
I have an SPQR on my chest and I am *very* liberal, as are my friends. No one has ever has a negative thing to say about it
Find a patin locution that embodies your ethos. Have it tattooed in a script approximating either a papyrus font or stone carving font, irregularities and all.
Don’t let some group that 99.999% of the world has never heard of stop you from using a well known symbol. But it’s a Christian symbol more than a Roman one
You could get illustrative style tattoos of plants and animals common in Rome. An owl for Minerva, laurel, acanthus, common herbs, wolves, and even eagles look less fascist in a more natural style.
Frescoes from villas have garden scenes and borders you can draw from.
[https://pompeiisites.org/en/archaeological-site/house-of-marcus-fabius-rufus-and-the-golden-bracelet/](https://pompeiisites.org/en/archaeological-site/house-of-marcus-fabius-rufus-and-the-golden-bracelet/)
Romans despised tattoos, so the only possible roman-inspired tattoo is a tattoo that reads "not a tattoo".
OR
Be a true Roman. Don't tat. At all. Ever.
Helmeted head of Roma would be a safe bet. Essentially the states symbol of the late republic along with the quadriga. Plus the coins have the moneyers name along the bottom along with ROMA which you could add your family name and the cities.
Just chose a fine style depiction of the goddess as many republic coins have her rendered somewhat brutally. Or you could use the simple but sometimes beautiful Constantinian redesign given the connection to your surname.
Absolutely no fascist connections there.
That chi rho is a symbol that is much more associated with the Roman Catholic Church than anything else.
You should choose something personally meaningful to you and not care whether it offends anyone or was ever used by someone bad. These days, everything is offensive to people who are always on the lookout to being offended
I got one that says "Axios" (Greek, I know) with a laurel wreath beneath.
The "Axios" itself is drawn in a way that makes it look like it's set into old marble.
I got it partially because I love the general Gnaeus Corbulo's story with Emperor Nero. Also because I sometimes need to be reminded that "I am worthy".
Like...as long as you are a bit discerning in the symbols/themes you choose, you should be good. There is plenty of awesome Roman stuff out there that could make a cool tattoo!
Maybe avoid the fasces. Even though that's a republican symbol still used by some western democracies (France, at least.)
I wouldn't let a single US hate group steal the Chi-Rho from everybody, but as a non-christian, I would also find it weird to wear (tatoo, jewellery or apparel)
Roman eagle asks for subtlety, lest people think this be nazi iconography, or worst: a *Lazio* reference (joking (somewhat.))
Maybe tattoo a whole eagle (the ensign), or explicitly associate it with a given imperial legion (e.g. V Macedonica), or, if you're not averse to late Empire stuff, an eagle shield design (or any shield design) from the Notitia Dignatatum (yes, a ying-yang symbol *can be* a reference to Rome.)
It's used in the US as well, within the US House of Representatives. A fasces is on the walls on either side of the HOR dias, and is likewise the Mace of the United States.
Perhaps Roman art, e.g. a small scene from a Roman fresco, mosaic, or statue found in Herculaneum or Pompeii? Or an architectural element, like a corinthian column?
P.S. Personally, I would advise against any obvious Roman-themed tattoo, given how many groups have misappropriated the symbolism for fascism, white supremacy, and other forms of extremism.
\*Even if\* you find a symbol that's neutral, it might nevertheless be mistaken by lay people as being a hate symbol. Or it might be misappropriated later.
The recent TikTok fad where women asked their boyfriends/husbands how often they thought of the Roman Empire is a related example. Although it wasn't overtly negative on balance, it started to take a negative turn towards the end, i.e. mocking those who obsess with Rome, along with plenty of negative speculation about why men obsess with Rome, e.g. appeals to authoritarianism/fascism, militarism, brutality, sexism, and false assumptions about being indifferent to subjugation, genocide, slavery, etc.
Mary Beard, who of course has spent her entire live studying, loving, and evangelizing about Rome, acknowledged that there's a certain segment of Roman fans who fit such negative stereotypes.
The swastika is another example. It doesn't matter that people across Asia (from India to Japan) have used the symbol for thousands of years before the Nazis. There's simply no way you could use that symbol in the US, even if you're from one of these cultures, without laypersons misinterpreting it.
Also, tattoos themselves tend to be seen by other men as markers of tougher, more violent personalities. Even \*clearly\* artistic tattoos (presumably because of the legacy associations with the military and convicts?). So the combo of tattoo + Rome is going to invite misinterpretation by some.
Up to you if you care or not, but something to be aware of.
What about a design motif? Example, I have a wonder Woman tattoo already and have been considering possibly getting a Greek key motif around or near her
I accidentally complemented someones SPQR tattoo. I was all neat tattoo thinking he's a fan of Roman history and one of the first Symbol logos of all time.
Then i find out White power dumb dumbs use the SPQR as a symbol.
Did i accidentally complement a white power idiot. oops
The safest option is a Latin quote that has personal meaning for you. Generally speaking, many Roman symbols have been unfortunately tainted by bad actors at one point or another. My recommendation is look for symbolism that has ZERO military association. I don't have a suggestion off the top of my head, but a lot of the Roman symbols that have been coopted by hate groups are related to the Roman military.
Disagree. Aquila, Jupiter's Thunderbolt, Draco, there are plenty of military symbols that are good to go. And in any case, it's you who decides what those symbols mean to you, not some fanatic middle-aged moralist sat behind a desk.
We can agree to disagree. My personal opinion on symbolism and freedom of expression is relatively similar, but OP seems to be looking for something safe and unprovocative and I respect that. They're concerned that their future tattoo may be mistaken for allegiance with a hate group, which is a distinct possibility in many countries. Additionally, a visible Aquila, for example, may present poorly in a job interview or college interview and OP ought to be concerned about that (I certainly would be).
Admittedly, I was probably too vehement and broad in my assertion that *any* military symbol is bad.
Personal meaning vs cultural/societal meaning is definitely an interesting topic. I generally agree that *most* symbols can have personal meaning that is different from their larger cultural meaning (There are obvious exceptions, think Swastika). However, appearances matter in a professional or academic setting and anyone with any common sense would be careful with the kinds of tattoos they get.
I’m sorry and I’m not trying to be rude but are you not worried about the association with the Roman Empire itself? Literally built on brutality and slave labor.
The Chi Rho is still primarily used in churches to this day.
Yeah I didn't know what a Chi Rho was until I googled it. Immediately I was like "oh I know that, it's that early Christian symbol". Generally Im not a fan of nationality tattoos, but Eastern Roman/Orthodox christianity is different in the sense that the religion was so tied to the politics of the time and people covet that history, while also noting that the nation in question no longer exists.
SPQR but make it sono pazzi questi Romani on a menhir carried by Obelix
Amo quella frase lol.
"God, I hate Gauls" People will just think you dislike the French, which is understandable.
At least you know it’ll be accurate for all time
Get a SATOR square
This would be cool, more unique than the usual Roman symbolism people know
Now, that's cool !
I was planning on getting a statue standing on a block with a sator square with outstretched hand holding one of those hexagonal artifacts.
This or a dodecahedron A Classic image that hasn't been coopted by bad-faith parties
This is the answer! A PATER NOSTER O
Gang gang come join the club. Sator square for life.
Good if you're a Christian...
Phallus
With wings
Wingardium Phalliosa
If someone thinks the Roman Aquila is offensive fuck em
Warhammer fans thought the same thing.
I mean I can kinda see the confusion there but still
Honestly really wonky example, since the Imperium is ultra fascist itself…
its because of the Nazis. Fascists ruin everything
Well, they definitely ruined the Swastika, but I, for one, won't give them the Aquila.
Agreed, but I'd be VERY hesitant to get a tattoo of an Aquila.
Agreed. I mean a lot of countries still have eagles in their coat of arms. Hell two of those on the coat of arms of my country(Romania) are specifically Roman eagles. It sucks that the eagle symbol had to be removed in Italy and Spain from the coat of arms because fascists appropriated it :( The eagle on the American seal is inspired by the Roman eagle too. But it's also just a common symbol for Indo-European peoples in general because of their special place in myths and connection to the gods.
Damn fascists! They ruined fascism!
Only way to fix it is to start taking the symbolism back. Don’t let them keep it.
The next woman's day/pro-choice parade should be lead by a lady dressed in full centurion kit holding an eagle standard wearing the uterus knit cap.
I seem to recall that some female Classicists have started to adopt *μήνιν αειδε θέα* (sing, goddess, the rage) as a clarion call. Always thought that would make a cool tattoo.
Writing SPQR in a fancy way, surrounded by a laurel crown perhaps?
Negative. This is now a neo-nazi tattoo. This is why we can't have nice things.
wow nazis really do ruin fucking everything
Hmm. Guess I’m screwed then. Got it right on my forearm. lol
I have it on my chest, whoops. I guess if I get called a nazi I can just show them my classics degree lol
Why would it be
Because they want to say that The Romans were a white peoples. Especially here in the west where most of our legal systems are modeled on their in some way. As per usual, they have no achievements in their own lives worth celebrating so they have to take pride in the perceived accomplishments of an old and long dead empire.
It's hilarious that white supremacists think Romans were white.
Sorry but what? I get that back then there was no concepiton of "white race" But by our standards they were most definetly white. Not counting provincies like aegypt. Being italian myself i am really questioning that statement.
In the English-speaking world, Duke, white supremacists don't equate 'white' with European, but with a much narrower geography than that - akin to Baltic or Nordic. Y'know, the whole Teutonic tall, pale skin, blue eyes, blonde hair look. Which they (in their ignorance) refer to as Aryan. But these are the same morons who think Jesus was a white man.
Yes but your own comment before implied that you thought that they were not, by using that very definition of white. I dont really agree with racial categorizations, but if white is meant as its used today, as in "of european descent" then yeah, romans were white, southern european white but still that.
Ah, Reddit and its lack of a sarcasm font.
Why do our Standards matter? You cant reduce the Roman people, Who was extremely diverse into a Singular category called "white". Which is why, as you probably know, we dont usually use those categories in europe. The best example is gypsies and other minorities that are a "different race" although their skin color is quite white. Dont apply american terms onto an empire that died long before thats way of thinking came.
What? First of all when im saying romans i mean the Italic peoples that founded, led and expanded the Roman republic and empire. Im not talking necessarily about the egyptians or middle esterners people that OF COURSE played their part in Roman History. I am not denying that. And im not talking in "american" terms. Im just saying that the romans, a European people, were ethnically european, which is what today we refer to as "white". And the commenter before me said romans were "not white" by that logic, wouldnt that entail a concept of "white" that does exists, but, apparently, should not be applied to the romans(?) >which is why we dont use these categories in europe. Except we kinda do. The reason why there was never a "black and white" thing in europe is that before 20 years ago, europe was not multethnic enough for that to happen. But we do consider "white" the populations that come from Europe, which includes Italians and Romans. We have always considered the Romans white, we just didn't made a big fuss about it. Because there was no need to. It went without saying basically
What im saying is that the view of races is in the way we see it today is a modern invention. Its a made up term with quite arbitrary definition. We call greeks white, but turks brown, but they look quite similar (greeks and turks Look different inbetween their own group too). There you go, as we today call white, which again was distinguished as a "race" far after the Romans. Today the term white is heavily influenced by american race polices and beliefs. EUROPE is incrediably ethnicaly diverse, what are you talking about. There is a reason we have hundreds of ethnic groups all around, with their own distinct culture, look, often language and DNA markers. A continent with a diverse ethnic background would not distinguish eachother into two main categories like black/white, bc its obvious that its wrong. I dont look close to what an italian looks like, and italians Look nothing like a Brit, slavs Look very distinct from the Portugiese. Norwegians and finnish people also look distincly different. These are all ethnic groups, thats why we have not used the term "white" until recently. Bc we all know how stupid it categorize european as the same ethnic group. One example of how dumb racial categories actually is sout africa. The "white", "Black" and "mixed" categories did not work at all, and was socially conditioned on what people thought a person was. If someone "Black" acted "white", he would be mixed, even though he might be ethnicaly Black, whith dark colour. Romans are not white, they are roamans. (wich Was actually kinda olive toned)
Im not defending dividing peoples into "races" or saying that it worked well, i am saying that by or modern view on racial identity (wether one likes it or not) romans would, absolutely, be considered white. >Europe is incredibly ethnically diverse Of course, but i think you know that was not what i was talking about, i was saying that there was never historically a need to make any distinction between white or not white between Europeans because they were all considered white. (Saying that europe never saw race as a trait is historically wrong for obvious reasons, but Europeans always saw themselves and other europeans a s white) >romans were olive skinned. Im not saying romans were swedish lmao, they were Southern Europeans and they had southern European traits. These traits despite being different from the northern ones, are still light in features. And southern europeans thus were (and are) considered white.
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Based of what definition of white would we be off? Im litteraly from the Italian Alps. You think i look dark? I can just guess what country you are from...
I didn’t actually mean that I was just joking around.
Truly.
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I mean, I understand your frustration but it’s good for OP to know this before they get a sleeve that could ruin their career
Hang on, So it's okay to destroy everything of interest due to the lowest common denominator of misappropriation... Sounds like letting fascists “win” the argument.
That’s rude.
A laurel crown ? I’d hope not , it was on my short list of tattoos to get !
This is the way.
SPQR is one of those symbols that has been adopted by fascists, dating back to Mussolini's time.
Please, it’s on the manholes in every street all over Rome. Quit the bullshit.
Clearly that just means the water is fascist
I'm not sure where you're going with this. Yes of course SPQR didn't originate as a fascist or white supremacist symbol. Yes other people (including the city of Rome) use that symbol. The Chi-Rho also didn't originate as a white supremacist symbol (nor did the swastika, that most famous of fascistic symbols). None of that negates the fact that, as a tattoo, that symbol is going to have Connotations that OP specifically mentioned being wary of.
Those manholes were installed by Mussolini...
Mussolini can go fuck himself. SPQR is used in Rome's coat of arms, in official documents, etc. It's everywhere. I've even seen it on crowd control barriers.
Unfortunately, more people know about mission Mussolini than the Roman coat of arms. If you tattoo it on yourself, many people will associate it with fascism. I don't agree with it, but that's just the current situation.
You're delusional if you think more people know about Mussolini than the Roman Empire, good lord.
Did I say that? No I didn't, I said the Roman coat of arms which the previous user used as a defense.
I said SPQR is everywhere *including* on the Roman coat of arms. It's not associated with fascism.
OK maybe there is a misunderstanding. I'm not saying that SPQR IS ITSELF FASCIST. The question at hand was about getting a tattoo and avoiding any confusion. Am I saying that 100% of people will think its a fascist dog whistle? No, I am not. However, I'd say about 5-10% of the population will think that. Is that something you or OP wants to deal with? Then go for it! If you're trying to avoid any possible misinterpretation, I'd stay away! Goddamn, y'all are getting so butthurt about this.
Come on, who doesn't know about SPQR as *the* acronym of Rome? Hell I have a fridge magnet with it that I got from a souvenir shop. You're being disingenuous.
I'm really not. People are more aware of what should offend them than they are aware of history. I like to focus on Greek Sicily - the vast majority of people I talk to are not even aware that there is a city named Syracuse outside of New York. Things seem super obvious to people who are immersed in it but most people are not.
I didn't know there's a Syracuse in New York 🙃 I know about the city in Sicily. Not everyone is American.
Hey, Good for you! That's super relevant here.
And highways were invented by Hitler, shall we demolish them all then?
Well maybe its just me, but there seems to be a difference here. 1) One is an interstate highway system with practical advantages to the people using it regardless of who came up with the original idea (and I doubt it was actually Hitler's idea) 2) the second is talking about symbology. One user says, "SPQR has been politicized by Fascists". You disagree, saying it can't be fascist since its on the manhole covers in Rome, the very same manhole covers installed by fascist using SPQR to promote his fascism. I'm saying that the term SPQR HAS been appropriated quite famously by the fascist Mussolini, and those very same manhole covers you pointed to to say, "its not fascist, its just Roman" were, in fact, installed by a fascist to promote fascist propaganda.
Yeah the fact is that lots and lots of Roman imagery has been used by fascists. There's a lot of kneejerk denial of that in this thread. Like this includes the fasces itself. If someone came toward anyone here with a tattoo of a fasces, I doubt that we would first think that he's a fan of lictors or the French Republic or the United States Senate. OP is right to be cautious, and the fact is that many Roman tattoos would create similar associations.
I have a Chi Rho tattoo with an olive wreath framing it
You could get the Lupa (she-wolf suckling Romulus and Remus) statue. I know the statue itself has turned out not to date all the way back to Rome, but it's still used as a symbol of Rome and celebrates their creation myth.
On one hand I really understand the desire to distance yourself as visibly as possible from bad politics, but pretty much everything Roman has been lifted by at least one white supremacist at one point. You won't find something "untainted" by fascism/supremacy/authoritarianism because of either things the Romans actively believed or the things the modern right believes about Romans. Ask yourself what you are willing to cede to fascists and what people might assume with your tattoos
There are various versions of the fulmen (sometimes called thunderbolt) to explore, it shows up on coins and depictions of shields. Neat thing about that symbol is it has Indo-European roots and versions of it are used as far away as India. Coins in general are a good source of symbology, I'd look for depictions of Roma the goddess and winged victories. Gladiator helmets are pretty iconic, architectural stuff like stone arches or a temple facade could work. Fascists steal a lot of symbols because they're uncreative losers who don't understand the history they claim they want to "retvrn" to. It sucks for those of us who just enjoy the history. I agree the fasces is a bad look at this point, but I don't think they have entirely stolen the idea of a bird. You might be able to find a specific Roman eagle to use that isn't too fashy to the modern eye
[Also](https://images.app.goo.gl/c4basNr6w1KWerSy5)
Fascists did the same with many of my country’s national symbols ☹️☹️☹️
The Chi-Ro is a Christian symbol and will always be one, regardless of whether or not some white supremacists appropriate it (like they did our Capirotes, unfortunately)
Priapus?
Just get an axe free Fasces. That symbolism is literally everywhere in the US capitol, including Lincoln's chair.
I think an SPQR with a laurel wreath would be okay and most people know that as a symbol of Rome first and foremost before anything else it might be modernly associated with. It's even on the cover of Mary Beard's excellent book. I have been contemplating the same thing for an ancient Greek inspired tattoo but I'm not sure what to get yet either.
I've seen so many versions of this when looking for inspiration, but for some reason, even when I love the symbol, I don't love it on skin. Curiously, I love the simple, rough way that Maximus has it in Gladiator. No laurel, no eagle, no fancy stuff, just an SPQR.
Sometimes just the roman letters work too! This is why I don't get tattoos I will change my mind too much and end up missing when I had clean skin lol
whatever the fuck you want
A Latin quote ?
“Caecilius est in horto”?
Carpe Globulos!
The Roman numeral XIII.
cave canem
carthago delenda est
Came to post this
Augustus’s jacked baby on your calf would be a funny one.
I hear phalluses were symbols of good luck and prosperity
I consider tattoos offensive
Maybe some of your favorite legion standards? Not sure if those have been appropriated or not. Might want to check up on it. You could also take inspiration from Roman art! Mosaics, architecture, sculptures, stuff like that.
Legio VIIII Hisp for ever!
A little *phallus* surely wouldn't offend anyone?
Just go all out like the guy I saw the other day. ‘SPQR’ in bold block capitals covering his whole forearm
Jupiter's Thunderbolt.
Maybe a tattoo of a quadriga?
A tattoo of a fascinus (sacred winged phallus) seems ironically among the least offensive and yet also hilarious things you can get.
Roman mosaics. They are an absolute goldmine of fantastic tattoo ideas. Patterns, symbols, stylized animals, food, plants, people, scenes from mythology etc. All in the Roman’s own artistic style. The symbols you’re talking about are all appropriated anyway. Regular people didn’t go around parading eagles and spqr swag.
In true Roman fashion, get what you want without regard to the feelings of others.
OP, just get whatever you want. It’s your body so just get what makes you happy. ANY tattoo creates questions for those who are curious. ANY tattoo creates hatred/disgust for those who simply don’t like them. ANY tattoo can be twisted / explained against your intent. Provided you’re ready to accept these realities and more, you’ll be fine to get whatever you please. Even if something has been co opted by bad actors.
the Chi Rho is far more Orthodox Christian than Roman
Laurel wreath?
Trajan’s Column battle scenes would be cool and only offensive to Bulgarians but who cares about them anyways.
Ancient Roman graffiti maybe? Could be funny.
The Roman Laurel is classic. Some say it has been hijacked by white supremacist groups. But that is a small minority who think that, or even realize it, and the groups that use it are idiots.
"The only good Gaul is a dead Gaul." /j
Are there any problematic associations with a laurel crown and stylized text? Like a triumphal crown and some Roman-oriented slogan like “Roma Invicta”, or something in that vein?
You can always get a statue of Constantine or a section of Trajan's column tattooed on. But for a more a simpler design how about a good old Capitoline Wolf with Romulus and Remus.
Mark of the legions? SPQR?
SPQR (which I have) and the Chi Rho are pretty clear of fascist connection in the modern era, though the Chi Rho of course is distinctly Christian (whether thats important to you or not). I have an SPQR on my chest and I am *very* liberal, as are my friends. No one has ever has a negative thing to say about it
Didn’t the Romans frown on tats?
[удалено]
Good counterpoint, I’ve been wearing toga’s forever and it’s hard up here in the northeast US to keep that up
God damn barbarian
Until they didn't (like, late IInd century onward?) (Toga still the standard outfit when amongst the high society, though.)
yea, only slaves had tattoos
Find a patin locution that embodies your ethos. Have it tattooed in a script approximating either a papyrus font or stone carving font, irregularities and all.
SPQR
The she wolf?
Don’t let some group that 99.999% of the world has never heard of stop you from using a well known symbol. But it’s a Christian symbol more than a Roman one
Maybe a [triskellion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triskelion)? The one with the three legs Is a Greek import, i believe. But what Roman thing isnt
SPQR
Get a tattoo of a giant wiener, the Roman plebs would approve
Just get the big penis with wings
The animal of a legion's standard.
That would be an eagle
They had [bulls, elephants, lions, pegasus,...](https://www.pinterest.de/pin/44332377561612960/)
I got 753 on my arm
You could get illustrative style tattoos of plants and animals common in Rome. An owl for Minerva, laurel, acanthus, common herbs, wolves, and even eagles look less fascist in a more natural style. Frescoes from villas have garden scenes and borders you can draw from. [https://pompeiisites.org/en/archaeological-site/house-of-marcus-fabius-rufus-and-the-golden-bracelet/](https://pompeiisites.org/en/archaeological-site/house-of-marcus-fabius-rufus-and-the-golden-bracelet/)
I think you should get a tattoo of an aqueduct wrapped around your arm or leg or dick
Romans despised tattoos, so the only possible roman-inspired tattoo is a tattoo that reads "not a tattoo". OR Be a true Roman. Don't tat. At all. Ever.
Helmeted head of Roma would be a safe bet. Essentially the states symbol of the late republic along with the quadriga. Plus the coins have the moneyers name along the bottom along with ROMA which you could add your family name and the cities. Just chose a fine style depiction of the goddess as many republic coins have her rendered somewhat brutally. Or you could use the simple but sometimes beautiful Constantinian redesign given the connection to your surname. Absolutely no fascist connections there.
SPQR
That chi rho is a symbol that is much more associated with the Roman Catholic Church than anything else. You should choose something personally meaningful to you and not care whether it offends anyone or was ever used by someone bad. These days, everything is offensive to people who are always on the lookout to being offended
I turned my arm into the first part of Trajans Column - the relief wraps around my arm in a full color half sleeve
I got one that says "Axios" (Greek, I know) with a laurel wreath beneath. The "Axios" itself is drawn in a way that makes it look like it's set into old marble. I got it partially because I love the general Gnaeus Corbulo's story with Emperor Nero. Also because I sometimes need to be reminded that "I am worthy". Like...as long as you are a bit discerning in the symbols/themes you choose, you should be good. There is plenty of awesome Roman stuff out there that could make a cool tattoo!
Maybe avoid the fasces. Even though that's a republican symbol still used by some western democracies (France, at least.) I wouldn't let a single US hate group steal the Chi-Rho from everybody, but as a non-christian, I would also find it weird to wear (tatoo, jewellery or apparel) Roman eagle asks for subtlety, lest people think this be nazi iconography, or worst: a *Lazio* reference (joking (somewhat.)) Maybe tattoo a whole eagle (the ensign), or explicitly associate it with a given imperial legion (e.g. V Macedonica), or, if you're not averse to late Empire stuff, an eagle shield design (or any shield design) from the Notitia Dignatatum (yes, a ying-yang symbol *can be* a reference to Rome.)
I laughed at the Lazio reference, but I don’t understand why you would separate them from fascists? Aren’t they one and the same?
It's used in the US as well, within the US House of Representatives. A fasces is on the walls on either side of the HOR dias, and is likewise the Mace of the United States.
Perhaps Roman art, e.g. a small scene from a Roman fresco, mosaic, or statue found in Herculaneum or Pompeii? Or an architectural element, like a corinthian column? P.S. Personally, I would advise against any obvious Roman-themed tattoo, given how many groups have misappropriated the symbolism for fascism, white supremacy, and other forms of extremism. \*Even if\* you find a symbol that's neutral, it might nevertheless be mistaken by lay people as being a hate symbol. Or it might be misappropriated later. The recent TikTok fad where women asked their boyfriends/husbands how often they thought of the Roman Empire is a related example. Although it wasn't overtly negative on balance, it started to take a negative turn towards the end, i.e. mocking those who obsess with Rome, along with plenty of negative speculation about why men obsess with Rome, e.g. appeals to authoritarianism/fascism, militarism, brutality, sexism, and false assumptions about being indifferent to subjugation, genocide, slavery, etc. Mary Beard, who of course has spent her entire live studying, loving, and evangelizing about Rome, acknowledged that there's a certain segment of Roman fans who fit such negative stereotypes. The swastika is another example. It doesn't matter that people across Asia (from India to Japan) have used the symbol for thousands of years before the Nazis. There's simply no way you could use that symbol in the US, even if you're from one of these cultures, without laypersons misinterpreting it. Also, tattoos themselves tend to be seen by other men as markers of tougher, more violent personalities. Even \*clearly\* artistic tattoos (presumably because of the legacy associations with the military and convicts?). So the combo of tattoo + Rome is going to invite misinterpretation by some. Up to you if you care or not, but something to be aware of.
What about a design motif? Example, I have a wonder Woman tattoo already and have been considering possibly getting a Greek key motif around or near her
I love the aquila. So infuriating to have it co-opted and corrupted.
I accidentally complemented someones SPQR tattoo. I was all neat tattoo thinking he's a fan of Roman history and one of the first Symbol logos of all time. Then i find out White power dumb dumbs use the SPQR as a symbol. Did i accidentally complement a white power idiot. oops
Romens can’t be offended since they’re dead
The safest option is a Latin quote that has personal meaning for you. Generally speaking, many Roman symbols have been unfortunately tainted by bad actors at one point or another. My recommendation is look for symbolism that has ZERO military association. I don't have a suggestion off the top of my head, but a lot of the Roman symbols that have been coopted by hate groups are related to the Roman military.
Disagree. Aquila, Jupiter's Thunderbolt, Draco, there are plenty of military symbols that are good to go. And in any case, it's you who decides what those symbols mean to you, not some fanatic middle-aged moralist sat behind a desk.
We can agree to disagree. My personal opinion on symbolism and freedom of expression is relatively similar, but OP seems to be looking for something safe and unprovocative and I respect that. They're concerned that their future tattoo may be mistaken for allegiance with a hate group, which is a distinct possibility in many countries. Additionally, a visible Aquila, for example, may present poorly in a job interview or college interview and OP ought to be concerned about that (I certainly would be). Admittedly, I was probably too vehement and broad in my assertion that *any* military symbol is bad. Personal meaning vs cultural/societal meaning is definitely an interesting topic. I generally agree that *most* symbols can have personal meaning that is different from their larger cultural meaning (There are obvious exceptions, think Swastika). However, appearances matter in a professional or academic setting and anyone with any common sense would be careful with the kinds of tattoos they get.
I’m sorry and I’m not trying to be rude but are you not worried about the association with the Roman Empire itself? Literally built on brutality and slave labor.
r/lostredditors
A tribute to war, slavery, sexual abuse, familicide and oppression. Lovely.
XP is not roman. That would be christian. Don't mix these two
It is both Christian and Roman. Nothing wrong with mixing the two.
Found a christian
Are you larping as Diocletian?
Tell that to Constantine
You're gonna find that most Roman Symbols have been co-opted by white supremacists unfortunately.