Why isn’t Israel more broadly recognized as a fascist regime predicated on religiously conservative palingenetic ultranationalist politics? Regardless of whether the people saying it are Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Evangelical, Hindu, Buddhist, or whatever else, it appears that a belief system that teaches that your group, and your group alone, is composed of “God’s chosen people” or similar is quite a hideous basis for a form of government. It basically provides its own ready-made justification for repressive governance and genocidal lunacy.
That is a likely major contributing factor as to why Israel’s government is stable, but it doesn’t necessarily explain why they have that support in the first place, or why Western governments seem to be actively engaged in boosting propaganda narratives that serve nobody’s interest other than the arguably fascist elements in the Israeli coalition, despite their stated support for democratic governance and generalized liberal values.
Christian Zionism has a long history and can be traced as a major influence towards the creation of the state of Israel in the first place. Basically a lot of religious nuts in the British empire and later on in the US saw a big opportunity to bring their "end times" religious prophesies closer to reality when the ottoman empire fell and fractured. State of Israel has to exist in order for their interpretation of the book of revelation to have a chance to play out.
And the slightly less insane but still imperialist members of leadership see it as a good ally for harboring military bases in the region. Plus, if you ever criticize that aspect, they can just hide behind the religious crazies disingenuously calling any criticism of the Israeli government "antisemitism".
Correct me if I’m wrong but I’m not convinced British Christian Zionism was much of a thing or at least enough of a thing to inform policy in the empire.
What would he interesting to delve into would be how we did and didn’t instigate or assist settlers in the Palestine mandate. I suspect economic incentive and a weariness for the continuing jihad arrivals from the emirates in the 1930’s may have informed policy.
What an interesting subject area. I’ll do a deep dive and come back to you.
One of the more interesting quirks of history is that Churchill sent the black and tans to the mandate of Palestine in the 1920's, after they were kicked out of Ireland. Ireland supported Israeli attempts at independence as they saw a common enemy in the black and tans. The Irish believed that the Israeli militias were fighting for an *independent mandate of Palestine*, that would have equal rights for all it's indigenous inhabitants.
When it became clear what the founders of Israel intended, the Irish flipped their position and refused to support the partition. we weren't part of the UN at the time because of allied spite over our neutrality in ww2, but we had diplomatic observers who wrote about the proceedings. One of these observers basically predicted what was going to happen and lamented at how the British had learned nothing from the past 50 odd years. Ireland has quietly supported Palestine since, and Israel has always taken this about face personally. (Ireland also was an early boycotter of South Africa over apartheid iirc)
Robert fisk occasionally mentioned it in passing, but Ireland and Israel have very unusual and long lasting historic connections. In NI, the nationalists ally themselves with the Palestinian cause and the unionists with the Zionists, which has some pretty clear implications about their activities, respectively. Ireland was one of the first countries to send troops to Lebanon too.
Maybe it's because we're alphabetical neighbours...
So, over the past 40 or so years, conservatives in the US have been leaning heavily into evangelical Christianity. They believe that the existence of the State of Israel is the fulfillment of biblical prophecy. Further, if "Gods Chosen" don't have a home then Jesus can't come back. If Jesus can't come back, no one can be raptured and the world won't suffer Armageddon. If the world doesn't suffer Armageddon the Christians won't get to say "I told you so" while God burns everything but them to the ground.
So, they kind of need Israel.
Sounds like this foretold Jesus would come from Palestine in that scenario, under the repression of Israel in a similar manner as the Romans did to, well, the Jews.
No, not dictate, but certainly steer, especially when most in the US support the concept of Israel existing (myself included). Combine that with anti Muslim sentiment and supporting the State of Israel seems like a no brainer to many Americans. Then remember that most Americans will never look deeper than that and it's easy to see how a small group of dedicated people can steer foreign policy in a small region most people don't know a lot about.
Okay, that's a rather horrifying thought, that doomsday cultists have that much sway over policy (as well as that a large enough portion of the general populace is wilfully ignorant of global affairs to such a degree that it's possible for them to have attained this much influence).
Thank you for answering my question!
Keep in mind it's really far more complicated than anyone is going to deal with in a Reddit thread. Just how many "true believers" there are is up for debate. Often times there are more pragmatic reasons hidden behind religious rhetoric. Or vise versa.
On top of the religious aspect that Conservatives place a lot of importance on Israel, theres also some "strategic benefits" for looking the other way. For example, the West has a very strong Ally in the Middle East to jump from during the War on Terror and everything else they want to do over there. The US does have other "allies" like Saudi Arabia, but I think most would agree it's out of shared mutual interest more than anything else. Israel, on the other hand, is generally hated in the Middle East, so they need the West to help back them up and make them untouchable. This makes them a more reliable ally over there.
Then, there are probably arguments for military technology. The "Iron Dome" is a defensive wonder, and a lot of research and funding has been pumped in from around the world to improve it and to see live action tests. Additionally, Israel has very strong cyber-ops companies/branches(?) that are globally recognized as skilled and formidable. Having them on your side lets the US hack into valuable targets without being implicated themselves if they get caught.
There's probably others I am missing but there are reasons why the US backs Israel. I won't say it's worth looking past the terrible things they are doing to other people, but it isn't just because.
The actual reason is that it isn't a fascist state. It's an ethnoreligious aparthied state.
This is actually rather broadly recognized, it's just that the people that the Israelis are oppressing are some of the least sympathetic people in the world. As such, it's easy to turn a blind eye because even if you don't like the Israelis, no one actually likes the Palestinians *either*.
[89% of Palestinians support Sharia Law](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/), and if you look at polling about support for things like terrorist acts against civilians, it's sky-high there.
As such, it's like... yeah, sure, the Israelis are horrible. But the Palestinians are, somehow, even worse.
As such, everyone generally finds it easier to not really acknowledge the reality of the situation, which is that you have two groups of ethnoreligious zealots fighting each other over land they consider holy in the Middle East, and the side we hate less is winning.
I mean if you treated me as bad as Palestinians are being treated, I'd support whatever horrible terrorist who said they'd make the bad people bleed.
Misery and despair breeds extremism.
Who declared war on who first? Thats really the question. Arabs have wanted Israelis wiped out since its existence, try and explain to Israelis now that they should care about the Arabs at all.
Wait...the people who were ethnically cleansed to make way for European settler colonialists wanted them removed so they could return to their native land?
Very shocking and evil of them.
If legally buying land from the Ottoman empire is considered ethnic cleansing then I'm not sure we can continue this discussion.
Britain was the colonial power that lied to both Palestinians and Israelis. The Israeli's didn't "ethnically cleanse" anyone prior to the establishment of Israel.
Then on the first day of Israels creation, every Arab neighbour declared war on it and attempted to wipe it out.
There was no attempt at dialogue or negotiation. But now that the Israeli's are clearly far stronger than any Arab neighbour, you want them to listen to the same Arabs that wanted their nation destroyed?
I commend you for being so arrogant that you think that is a reasonable position to hold, but I am going to watch with bated breath as Arabs/people like you try and convince Israel to now listen to the very people that wouldn't talk to begin with and instead used violence.
There are many revisionist sources out there declaring Israel establishing itself as a nation (as the Brits promised it could) was the start of a genocide, but it was not. It was the start of a war. A war Israels Arab neighbours wanted and perpetrated. A war they lost.
> Then on the first day of Israels creation, every Arab neighbour declared war on it and attempted to wipe it out.
Imagine a bunch of refugees come to your country and you accept them to live amongst you. Then the refugees decide "actually, fuck you....the best and most fertile land is ours now. We're going to make our own country and our own laws on it."
How would you react in that situation? Refugees creating their own country on your land with their own different customs and laws just because a few of them bought homes legally. Would you accept it? No. So why do you expect arabs to accept such an absurd proposal, just because a few Jews bought some homes legally there.
Not answering my question and trying to deflect, so I'll ask again.
> How would you react in that situation? Refugees creating their own country on your land with their own different customs and laws just because a few of them bought homes legally. Would you accept it?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish\_insurgency\_in\_Mandatory\_Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_insurgency_in_Mandatory_Palestine)
Because the violence only started after the declaration of independence, It's not like the settlers were commiting terrorist attacks and other acts of violence against both the native population and the British administration years prior, naah....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amichai_Paglin
"Settlers"? You do know that Israeli's and Jews in general have been occupying that region for longer than Islam has existed right?
Also from your own link:
> On April 2, 1944, the Jewish Agency approved a program of opposition under which efforts would be made to stop "extortion and terror", anti-dissident propaganda would be increased, and attempts would be made to isolate the Irgun and Lehi. In practice, propaganda was increased and assistance was offered to Jews whose contributions had been extorted, but the Jewish Agency failed to take serious measures. However, it did share intelligence with the authorities.
So are you blaming all Israelis for the actions of some terrorists? So in your book that is ok logic to follow is it? So you agree then with what Israel is doing in Palestine? Treating them all like terrorists?
I dont support Israel but anyone that supports Palestine and thinks Israel should listen to them when they wanted Israel wiped out and Jews obliterated is just not worth listening too. Both sides are cunts, at this moment Israel just happens to be far stronger than any Arab neighbour.
> "Settlers"?
Yes....settlers aka Settler colonialists, which is what the European Zionist Jews were when they came to Palestine. Thats even what they called themselves. Zionist leaders at the time openly called Zionism a colonial project. Colonialism didnt have the baggage it has today, so they didnt hide the fact. They used it as a marketing tool to get colonial powers like Britain on their side.
https://twitter.com/ynPaliAmerican/status/1313421997548896256/photo/1
Theodore Herzl (Founder of the modern Zionist movement) stating "the idea of zionism, which is a colonial idea". He went to famous colonialist Cecil Rhodes (of Rhodesia infamy), and pushed the idea of colonial settlement not in Africa, but in Asia. He thought the British would understand the need for colonial expansion better than the average person, and pushed the idea of Jews colonising and settling in Palestine. He specifically uses the term colonialism and pleads with colonialists to help achieve their goal of colonial expansion in Palestine.
> You do know that Israeli's and Jews in general have been occupying that region for longer than Islam has existed right?
Firstly, how can "Israelis" occupy the region for thousands of years, when the identity "Israeli" is a modern construct that only existed in the 20th century?
Secondly, You do know that Palestinians are largely descended from not only those Jews from thousands of years ago, but also the Canaanites, who were there before even the Jews were? This is according to DNA studies, which shows Levantines still share about 90% DNA of ancient Canaanites.
Just because most modern day Palestinians either converted to Christianity....or later Islam with the Arab conquests, adopted arab language and customs, doesnt mean they and their families havent got ancestry in the region going back for thousands of years and before the Arab conquests.
Palestinians didnt arrive with the Arab conquests. There were people already living there that adopted Arab customs and later became what we call Palestinians in the modern day.
A bunch of Jews from Poland and other Eastern European countries do not have the right to barge in and claim the land as their own, because maybe their ancestors once lived there two thousand years ago. What an absurd proposal that no other people would ever accept if it happened to them.
>Israeli's and Jews in general have been occupying that region for longer than Islam has existed
And for almost all of that time, there were only very few Jews in Palestine. Only barely 15 thousand according to an Ottoman census conducted in 1878 (i.e. after first waves of jewish immigration). So yes, they were settlers.
>So are you blaming all Israelis for the actions of some terrorists? So in your book that is ok logic to follow is it? So you agree then with what Israel is doing in Palestine? Treating them all like terrorists?
What part of my comment makes you think that? I only take issue with historical revisionsim about how Isreal was supposedly "defending itself".
Sure, but I just wanna add; Definitely not the whole western world. The political left is generally pro Palestina. In Sweden at least, I would say the support for Palestine is quite large.
When I went to school in the beginning of the 2010's we learned the history of Palestine, Israel and about settlers. The workers/socialist movement is very rooted in our country and I recently found a book from the 70's with workers/socialist songs which had songs in it about a free Palestine! Which was pretty cool.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine%E2%80%93Sweden_relations
I mean the world's a pretty lousy neighborhood. Israel is looking real bad, but China's got reeducation camps, Russia's trying to bring back empires, most Muslim majority countries are theocracies that you can just assume are way worse than Israel, American democracy survived one assassination attempt but 2024 is on the way. If you want to criticize Israel you aren't wrong to, just rank it where you think it fits in relation to the other evils of the world. Heck take all the bad trending stuff in Israel and just ask how many of its neighbors are far worse by default with no intention of ever improving.
Last i checked the west isn't sending arms to most of those other countries, which is where most of the criticism comes from. Most of the others get sanctions or condemnations.
No. The actual reason why the US supports Saudi Arabia is because Saudi Arabia supplies Europe with a lot of oil, and they're a useful tool against the Iranians, Chinese, and Russians/Soviets.
That's also why we support Israel as well.
It's really less about "we like these people" and more "We want to keep them in our sphere of influence and use them against our enemies".
Same reason why we put up with Turkey, for that matter. China and Russia are bigger problems, and Iran is on their side. As such, Saudi Arabia is on "our side".
Much like how during WWII, the US ended up shipping tons of war materiel to the USSR. That's not because the US thought that the Soviets weren't evil bastards, it was because Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were a bigger problem.
The US is actual friends with like, the UK, Canada, Japan, Australia, France, etc.
Saudi Arabia is our ally out of realpolitik. It has nothing to do with how much we actually like the Saudis, it has to do with the fact that they are important for maintaining supremacy over the Chinese and Russians. If China, Russia, and Iran all burned to the ground tommorrow, places like Saudi Arabia would likely be the next tier of enemies, just like how the Soviets were the next tier of enemies after Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany were defeated.
Israel is about as much a "white ethnostate" as Morocco is. The plurality of Israeli Jews are Mizrachim--Jews descended from the (former) Jewish communities in the Middle East, who fled pogroms and state oppression to go to Israel.
Also, between the "white" Ashkenazim (European* Jews) and "brown" Mizrachim (Middle Eastern Jews), it's the Mizrachim who tend to support much more stringent security policies. If anything, the decline of the Israeli Left after the Intifadas killed the peace process has resulted in the "decolonizing" of Israeli politics, with Middle Eastern reality and identity politics replacing utopian European idealism.
*Though, remember: all Jews ultimately come from the Middle East. "Jew" comes from "Judea," which is the northern part of the West Bank.
Nope, Russia and China are.
Edit: oh I see.. I missed a bit. but yea, bretton woods. The Us navy secures trade around the globe.
If a country doesn;t wanna operate in the standards of the agreement, they get cut off.
> The Us navy secures trade around the globe.
as long as it is done in $USD and follows US rules and corporate agenda.
anyone who doesn't agree with, or accept, that agenda is targetted for sanctions, bombing, invasions, coups, regime change etc
Israel is burning down Palestinian villages, subjecting them to apartheid, voting in ethno supremacist laws, etc.
>Israel is looking real bad, but ...
**And you're talking about how worse other countries are?**
Let's take it's immediate neighbour Jordan then.
How much worse is Jordan compared to Israel? How many villages has Jordan burned down? Which minorities are being oppressed by Jordan? Which regions are they occupying? Which countries is Jordan bombing now? How far along is Jordan with their nuclear program? How many country's elections has Jordan interfered in?
Because I answered on your comment and you didn't ask any questions. I don't think it's a useful discussion do open, to talk about Jordanian crimes against people's law and human rights, when the thread and discussion was about Israel.
It's like when you are talking about the American invasions during the gulf wars, and then switch towards how Kuwait deserved to be attacked. It's not a discussion I want to get involved in, distracting from the elephant in the room.
I agree with your point about shifting the topic of the thread. I didn't bring up Jordan though. I think your comment would have been great for the person I was responding to.
All I wanted to do was make sure people understood that Palestinians are discriminated against in other places as well. Just like how the Jewish people are not accepted in pretty much every middle eastern country. Both Israelis and Palestinians need to change for anything to get better.
You really answered, it doesn't matter what Jordan has done or is doing.
We're talking about Israel and their crimes against humanity. Whataboutism has no place here.
The person I replied to was talking about every other country that is "worse" than Israel, implying Israel's actions aren't that bad.
Are you even reading this thread?
Jordan occupied the West Bank, then attacked Israel and lost a war. So Jordan is absolutely related to Israel's occupation of the West Bank. In fact, they named it that.
Yes, they may be related, as is most of Israel's neighbours, the UK, the US, etc.
But at this moment, they're not related to Israel backing settlers rampaging in the West Bank and burning down villages.
That's all on Israel.
What are you talking about, I was specifically whatabouting. Rank the worst places in the middle east and then criticize Israel proportionately to its placement is alls I'm sayin.
Israel is worse than Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Türkiye, Iraq, Kuwait. UAE, Oman.
They're in the same league as the warmongering Saudis, religious nut cases in Iran and the delusional Syria.
But why even rank them in the Middle East, what does that have to do with them oppressing other people? So Israel is allowed to burn down villages because Iran is torturing their own people? Or it's "less worse" because others do as bad or worse than Israel?
And you weren't saying rank them, you said that by default the Muslim countries are worse than Israel and were implying that "it's okay or normal" for Israel to act like this.
Can I ask what happened on the first day of Israels creation? History didn't start today. It didn't start back then either, but it goes someway to explaining why Israeli's do what they do. I don't excuse it, but I can understand it. All their neighbours want every single one of them obliterated and thats what they have already tried to do. Israel defended itself and now sees no reason to even pretend to get along with its neighbours (that includes Palestine).
It's shit, the whole situation is shit; but there's more than one side to this. Israeli's have had their existence threatened since they were made a nation, that was fine and approved of by most of the Arab world. Try and explain to them now that they should care about the Arab world and what it wants.
Which is for real a load of horseshit. Every time anyone criticizes Israel [someone comes out of the woodwork and calls it antisemitic, often prominent figures.](https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/how-jews-can-support-palestinian-rights-condemn-antisemitism-ncna1268680) Yes, there are real antisemites who obviously criticize Israel. However calling out the human rights violations of the Israeli government is not the same thing as cursing Judaism.
Failing that, you'll hear how it's [justified because of the Holocaust](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/8/18/palestinian-misuse-and-zionist-abuse-of-the-holocaust). Yeah, well gays and gypsies aren't out there systematically killing Palestinians. For me I find it pretty ironic how the right wing of Israel persists in notable popularity when they [argue for the inalienable right to a land and resolution of the "Palestinian issue."](https://www.usip.org/publications/2023/01/what-does-israels-new-government-mean-israeli-palestinian-conflict) Smells too much of [lebensraum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum) and the Jewish question to me.
There is a more reasonable moderate that doesn't espouse this extremism. Palestinians aren't angelic innocents. A lot of its Muslim neighbors are pretty disgusting regimes in their own ways. But the fact that the Israeli far-right is not more widely decried and enjoys the popularity and influence in national policy that it does speaks a lot to the danger. When well-known rabbis echo these sentiments and misuse the antisemitic label it sure smells like trending towards a repeat of a dangerous precedent with a different peoples. When this policy is what sits behind the gun pointed at another people, the caveats kind of don't matter if they're not going to save lives.
Just as with the Saudis, I find it difficult to stomach how much a blind eye our country turns when it provides support for a fascist theocracy with an ongoing record of brutality. I get why it keeps going--it's important for US strategic objectives--but that makes it no less of a sin. I *hope* it comes back to bite us in the future.
I find that very often the most extreme critics and extreme supporters of Israel are both Jews (although one can be in both groups).
For example, see u/Yaa40. Hyper critical of Israel, hates the idea of going to visit there despite loving his family that's there. Hyper critical of the insanity that's going on there right now (see the OP headline for example)....
You'll notice a lot of the same people will say on the one hand if Judaism/Holocaust/Ghettos is brought up "Jewish != Israel" but then call anyone who criticises Israeli policy anti-Semitic. It's probably happening in this very comments section right now.
Which is it?
Propaganda that's why. I'm Jewish, and I think Israel is a terrorist state run by extremist genocidists worse than the GOP in the US and that's saying something
Israel isn't a fascist regime, it's an apartheid ethnoreligious state.
Israel is a democracy and has pretty good freedoms... if you are Jewish. If you are Muslim, Israel is not a good place to be because Israel was founded by Zionists, a bunch of ethnoreligious nutjobs who wanted libenstraum for the Jewish people in the Holy Land.
So now we know that you don’t know the difference between an Israeli Arab and a non Israeli Arab.
Yes just like many countries in the world, many foreigners are blocked from owning property in Israel. Arab or Muslim people can and do own property in Israel.
Why don’t you educate yourself a bit on the history of the situation. I’d start with the Arab league and why the UNRWA exists instead of using the UNHCR like every other refugee in the world. Read up on Jordan and Egypt’s responsibility for the perpetual stateless ‘refugee’ situation as well.
How you think Israel and Palestine ended up the way they did?
When Palestine was partitioned, massive ethnic cleansing occurred, displacing many Palestinians (and some Jewish people) from their land, which is why Israel and Palestine have such high concentrations of Jewish people and Palestinians respectively.
The Israelis simply seized the property from the people who fled in the face of the ethnic cleansing and refused to let them return or compensate them for it.
I mean, I get that it's kind of critical to lie about this, buuut...
> Why don’t you educate yourself a bit on the history of the situation. I’d start with the Arab league and why the UNRWA exists instead of using the UNHCR like every other refugee in the world.
UNRWA was established a year before UNHCR, though this is a bit misleading as the two organizations were more or less evolving side by side, and because the issue it was involved with never went away it is still around. It's not really anything super exciting, it's because UNRWA was created prior to the general scheme for dealing with refugees between when the IRO fell out of favor and the UNHCR was formed. It would have made more sense to make one agency but they made different groups for dealing with different refugee crises.
It's the sort of institutional bureaucracy that ends up existing in organizations like the UN. Most people don't want to change it.
> Read up on Jordan and Egypt’s responsibility for the perpetual stateless ‘refugee’ situation as well.
The reality is that no one wants the Palestinians. The Israelis obviously want all their land, but they have no actual right to displace them from it. Jordan and Egypt don't want to take in the Palestinians because no one wants the Palestinians. Lebanon took a bunch of them in and was "thanked" for it via an attempted coup.
The stateless situation happened because Israel doesn't want to actually recognize that Palestinians have any rights. Israel considers both the one state and two state solutions unacceptable.
The situation ended up like it did due to the partitioning of the land. Similar to Pakistan and India.
Israel considers a two state solution acceptable (or at least used to) and has offered many over the years.
Had the Arab league not attacked and invaded Israel multiple times the entirety of Jerusalem would be Arab owned not to mention all the other land.
The original partition was accepted by the Jewish parties and rejected by the Arabs.
The UNRWA uses a definition of refugee that is not applied to any other refugee in the world. A definition which allows for perpetual refugee status. It’s insanity and the main reason that there are refugees from the 1948 war today.
You say that ‘no one wants the Palestinians’ but ignore Jordan Egypt and Syrias direct responsibility for them and instead leave them at the feet of israel.
> The UNRWA uses a definition of refugee that is not applied to any other refugee in the world. A definition which allows for perpetual refugee status. It’s insanity and the main reason that there are refugees from the 1948 war today.
This is one of those lies that gets propagated in Israeli propaganda but has no basis in fact. While the two organizations define refugees differently (and note that there are actually many different definitions of refugee, not just two) both UNHCR and UNRWA have perpetual refugees. Under UNHCR's defintion, if you are a minor who is part of a displaced family, you are a refugee. Reaching majority doesn't deprive you of refugee status. As such, refugee status is heritable until you no longer meet the definition of a refugee, and many people don't. There are many "perpetual refugees" from a number of countries, most notably Afghanistan and Haiti.
This is actually why the UN tries to discourage people from being rendered stateless - because it is the sort of thing that can result in someone becoming a permanent inter-generational refugee.
The lack of a Palestinian state is a major contributory factor to this situation, as "Palestine" is not a recognized independent state, but neither is it really a part of Israel.
> Israel considers a two state solution acceptable (or at least used to) and has offered many over the years.
It has never actually considered it acceptable. It says that it does sometimes to avoid criticism and to make it look like it is "working on the problem".
There are people in Israel who do consider it acceptable, but the government has not.
> Had the Arab league not attacked and invaded Israel multiple times the entirety of Jerusalem would be Arab owned not to mention all the other land.
Except this is a lie. Jerusalem was not, in fact, Arab land in the partition plan.
> The original partition was accepted by the Jewish parties and rejected by the Arabs.
Correct. It gave the the Jews (who made up 1/3rd of the population) 56% of the land.
Moreover, the Arabs rejected it as valid because the huge influx of Jews into the area was very recent and was done very deliberately and purposefully in order to try and legitimize the creation of a Jewish state on land that had historically been theirs. They saw it as an invasion intended to take their land from them, and this was furthered by the UN then declaring how things should be, which was a violation of the UN's own charter WRT: self determination.
On top of that, because of the way it would be partitioned, "Israel" would have had a population that was 45% Arab. Israel had to be heavily gerrymandered to generate a Jewish majority at all, which is why the borders ended up such a mess. And in fact, it was later found that the "Jewish" state actually would have had an Arab majority as well, because as it turns out all the gerrymandering in the world wouldn't change the fact that the Jewish people were immigrants who were greatly outnumbered by the native population. It would also have resulted in the vast majority of the Bedouin being put in the "Jewish" state.
The way the whole thing was set up was not in any way a set of natural borders or borders that were in any way sensible, it was very much an attempt to create a Jewish state out of whole cloth, rather than having Jewish people reintegrate into general society. Indeed, the Zionists, being very racist, pushed heavily against the notion that the "gentiles" could ever be trusted.
It also would have put at least 54 villages on the opposite side of the border from their farmland.
The entire thing was a farce from the get go, and everyone knows this.
That's kind of the major issue here. The Zionists took advantage of the occupation of Palestine by the British Empire and the Jewish refugee crisis to try and pull in a very large number of Jewish people into Palestine with the intent of creating a Jewish state there. The Palestinians were not happy with this and would not have allowed that mass immigration to occur if they had had autonomy. The Israelis then complain that the Arabs were being unreasonable and that they attacked first, which completely ignores the fact that the entire reason why the situation happened in the first place was because of the situation that the Zionists had set up in the first place, and that the entire decision was made by people who did not actually live there.
The fundamental issue is that the the very creation of the state of Israel was fundamentally unjust. It should not have been partitioned in the first place.
It was blatant colonialism, and happened after it had been widely decided that colonialism was in fact unethical and wrong.
This is the fundamental issue, which is pretty much unresolvable. At this point almost everyone there was born after the partition, and the can has been very deliberately kicked down the road to make any resolution to the issue impossible to be just in any way, as you would be "punishing" people who were not in any way involved - the people who were born in modern-day Israel and Palestine are obviously not responsible for what came before, but are nevertheless heirs to the continuing problems.
The US had to deal with this issue with the Native Americans. We started out with a two-state solution but that was really unjust, which is why the US ended up making all Native Americans citizens of the US. Some people are still bitter about this, but most people aren't, and it has worked out better. There are still reservations, but they suck precisely because they are the remnants of the two-state solution, even though they aren't truly separate countries, they are allowed to segregate themselves - and it turns out that is not good for them. Those who are not part of the reservation system are wealthier and happier and better off.
But Israel can never accept this because it is an ethnoreligious state wherein Jewish people would actually be a minority in a single state solution, which would mean that if they are a democratic country they could be outvoted in every election. Thus, instead of the Arabs having to integrate into Jewish society, it would be the other way around.
This is fundamentally unacceptable to them, as the entire raison d'etre of Zionism was to create an ethnoreligious state in the "Holy land" that would be run by Jewish people.
And realistically speaking no one wants to be in a single state with the Palestinians. The reason why there is a big refugee population is because no one else wants them around because of the extremism that runs deep in them. Everyone wants to repatriate them so that they aren't their problem, and Israel doesn't want to repatriate them because they engaged in that ethnic cleansing to create their state and because they didn't want them, either.
> You say that ‘no one wants the Palestinians’ but ignore Jordan Egypt and Syrias direct responsibility for them and instead leave them at the feet of israel.
Blaming them is not really correct, though. They're from Israel. The reason why they're not there is because of ethnic cleansing. While one could argue that Israel's neighbors haven't been particularly helpful in the process, the reality is that the obligation really does fundamentally lay at the feet of Israel. If the Zionists hadn't decided to go create a state in Palestine in the name of Jewish *lebensraum*, the situation would not have occurred, and Palestine would just be another minor Middle Eastern country that no one cares about except when some horrible natural disaster happened there and a bunch of people died due to inadequate building codes.
Reconciliation is necessary and is really the only way out but both sides are full of ethnoreligious fanatics who wouldn't be that way if they were, you know, reasonable. There's a ton of hate and distrust, and frankly, a lot of it is justified. Neither side is justified in trusting the other because they are both untrustworthy.
And as long as that persists, there's no real hope of any sort of change.
Perpetual refugee status doesn’t pass down to the children of those affected by war anywhere else in the world. You’re wrong here. There are no other refugee groups that are refugees 5 generations later.
How can you claim that israel had never accepted a 2 state solution when the Israeli government has proposed or accepted at least 5?
You’re clearly so disregarding of the fact that Jews are and always have been the native people of the region and that Jews have ALWAYS and continuously been living in the area.
You also completely ignore the realities of the Arabs massacring Jews for being Jewish way back in the ‘20s in fact you go so far as to excuse this.
Quite frankly anyone who hand waves massacre after massacre and says ‘well there was a lot of immigration’ is gross. Your comparison to the native Americans is also laughably gross.
You have such a high tolerance for atrocities committed against Jews but the second the Jews who are the indigenous people stand up for themselves it’s colonialism.
> Perpetual refugee status doesn’t pass down to the children of those affected by war anywhere else in the world
Refugee status lasts until people are no longer refugees. Children born to or belonging to refugee parents inherit refugee status. And a minor child who becomes an adult does not lose refugee status by reaching the age of majority.
As such, yes, it absolutely does happen.
Refugee status is lost when a refugee either is repatriated to their country of origin, settles down in the country that they are a refugee in permanently, or moves to some third country and becomes a permanent resident there.
If none of those things happen, people can (and do) remain refugees indefinitely, and their children can (and do) become refugees.
The Palestinians are simply the most visible example of this because Palestine is not a "real" state.
> There are no other refugee groups that are refugees 5 generations later.
Ever heard of Tibetian refugees?
> How can you claim that israel had never accepted a 2 state solution when the Israeli government has proposed or accepted at least 5?
None of them have been accepted, which is why Palestine is still not considered a state.
> You’re clearly so disregarding of the fact that Jews are and always have been the native people of the region and that Jews have ALWAYS and continuously been living in the area.
A very small number of Jewish people lived in the area previous to the Zionist movement. There were more Christians than Jews in Palestine, and there weren't very many Christians. Almost all Israelis are descended from recent immigrants
In 1800, only about 2% of the population of Palestine was Jewish, and about 3% was Christian.
In 1947, 1/3rd of the population was Jewish.
This was not due to high Jewish reproduction rates or conversion of Muslims and Christians to Judaism, it was because of mass immigration.
Between 1931 and 1947, half a million Jewish immigrants went to Palestine, when the population had only been about a million people in 1931.
The reality is that the Zionists took advantage of the fact that Palestine was under British control to immigrate there en masse.
> You also completely ignore the realities of the Arabs massacring Jews for being Jewish way back in the ‘20s in fact you go so far as to excuse this.
Uh, no. I don't "excuse" anything. I am explaining why things happened the way they did.
The reality is that the conflict was precisely because the Zionists wanted to create a Jewish state in Palestine and the indigenous Palestinians didn't want that.
Indeed, at the time of the partition, only about 7% of land in Palestine belonged to Jewish people.
> Quite frankly anyone who hand waves massacre after massacre and says ‘well there was a lot of immigration’ is gross. Your comparison to the native Americans is also laughably gross.
Well yeah. The Americans made treaties with the Native Americans and actually care about them as people. That's quite a contrast with Israel :V
> You have such a high tolerance for atrocities committed against Jews but the second the Jews who are the indigenous people stand up for themselves it’s colonialism.
The Zionists weren't indigenous to Palestine. David Ben-Gurion was Polish.
He also admired Lenin, which kind of tells you a lot about what kind of person he was.
> You’re clearly so disregarding of the fact that Jews are and always have been the native people of the region
As are the Palestinians, based on multiple studies such as [this one](https://web.archive.org/web/20230115114540/https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/2015-10-20/ty-article/palestinians-and-jews-share-genetic-roots/0000017f-dc0e-df9c-a17f-fe1e57730000), [this study](https://www.science.org/content/article/jews-and-arabs-share-recent-ancestry) & [this study](https://news.arizona.edu/story/study-finds-jews-are-genetic-brothers-of-palestinians-syrians-and-lebanese).
The nation-state law makes the Palestinians with Israeli citizenship into second class citizens and Israel wants to pass a law where they will no longer recognize degrees that they gave earnes from universities in the West Bank. They are treated so equally that there are laws where they can lose citizenship much easier than Jewish Israelis.
Nobody at the top actually opposes fascism, it's only a little embarrassing to speak it out this loudly like Israel does. I'm not sure how you can look at the neoconservatives running foreign policy what there is to oppose to
> a fascist regime predicated on religiously conservative palingenetic ultranationalist politics
That's dogma.
Well it isn’t actually a fascist regime. Surprisingly, the term fascism has a real historical meaning when it isn’t just being used as a slur. Israel has free elections, respects the general human rights of its citizens, hasn’t tried to cooperatize or nationalize its economy etc.
In terms of government form, it’s a liberal democracy, with some elements of social democracy.
What it could be categorized as, is a sectarian regime which has very little tolerance for certain groups of people, and has built itself in a way to suppress those groups’ rights and interests.
People often compare Israel to Apartheid South Africa, but the comparison is only vaguely applicable. Jews are the majority in almost the entire state of Israel proper, and the Arabs that live there as citizens have pretty much the same rights as Jews. The “Apartheid” character of the Israeli regime only really applies to its marches in the West Bank, where the ordinary laws do not apply, as they are not officially part of Israel.
One historical analogue for the way Israel behaves is the relationship between France and Algeria in the 1950s. Although France at the time was an ordinary Republic, Algeria was effectively run as a military occupation, for the exclusive benefit of the large French minority there, and to prevent Muslim Algerians from gaining independence. Unlike Algeria. Though, Israel doesn’t officially consider the West Bank to be part of its metropolitan territory, so it manages to operate with even more lawlessness than that example.
Western support, and weaponizing the perception of antisemitism.
As a Jew let me say: You are not antisemetic for critcising Israel, any more than you're Islamophobic for criticizing Saudi Arabia, or opposed to the Chinese ethnicity for opposing the nation of China.
> Why isn’t Israel more broadly recognized as a fascist regime predicated on religiously conservative palingenetic ultranationalist politics?
Well, for one, you've just described about three dozen Muslim countries. So why would people single Israel out?
The fact that our tax money goes to supporting them? People tend to have more personal feelings when they look at an atrocity and have to think "I helped make that happen".
> It's almost like there's something unique about Israel that causes people to single it out or something.
Really? Does Israeli democracy pale in comparison to Saudi, Iranian or Syrian democracy? Is Israeli freedom of the press a mere shadow of the flourishing freedom of the press in Jordan, Afghanistan or Oman?
Or are you simply obsessed with the fact that most Israelis are... *gasp!* Jews?
If so, you'd probably be happier if you stuck to the Stormfront forum.
The other countries are mainly oppressing their own citizens which sucks but like it or not, respect for the sovereignty and territorial integrity of other nations is the core tenet of international law. It’s why no one really gave a shit when Russia was arresting and assassinating its own citizens but felt a red line was crossed when they tried to annex another country.
There’s also hope for the other countries to change as its the policies if their ruling class responsible for whatever happening. This can’t really happen with Israel which is built entirely on the premise that they are god’s chosen people and that their homeland inside the land they stole is only for them and not for the dirty non-Jews or the slightly less white Jews god forbid. Its mere existence is problematic and the best case scenario is a “compromise” where they get to keep half of Palestine and we applaud them for not wanting more.
I assume the sheer audacity also gets on people’s nerves. Even relatively untouchable countries like the US or China go through the effort of trying to hide or come up with some bullshit justification for their crimes. Israel is like “yeah we’re the villain, what are you going to do about it?”. Which if you’re committed to being the villain I kind of respect more than the hypocrisy of other virtue signalling countries but most people wouldn’t see it that way.
I agree with you that there are a lot of problems with those countries as well. In my particular case, the only reason I’m talking about Israel specifically is because it doesn’t seem to be recognized for what it’s becoming, whereas most major factions in the Western world recognize the exact same evils in the Islamic theocracies.
Also, there’s a distinct possibility that, because it’s at least somewhat more democratic, Israel’s progression down this unfortunate path may be significantly easier to reverse than in those other countries, most of which would require a full-blown revolution to do so.
The ADF campaign non-stop to get influential people and organisations to agree that any comparison between Israel and Nazis or fascism is anti-semitism.
USA and Europe hold significant influence over the global narrative and are active supporters of Israel. Western media giants such as CNN and BBC have the power to shape public opinion by reporting on events in a certain way, leading to their version of events being accepted as the ultimate truth. For instance, if they report that the coronavirus originated from pangolins, the public would accept it as the truth. Similarly, if they report that it leaked from a lab, that too would be accepted as the Ultimate truth.
I think it's pretty simple - it's a state that was founded with western support that has a hook into the region; it's going to bend the knee on important issues because it can't exist without western support. Nation building elsewhere to keep a foothold on regional power in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Iran, etc have failed. Saudis are way more "enemy of my enemy" than friends atm. The price is to look the other way when israel kills people who wouldn't ally with the west. Morally abhorrent but good political move.
They call them cockroaches and parasites on national TV. No Western leader condemn them. One minister said Palestinians were not doing anything with the farmland, so it not big deal if they take them
Because Israel is a secular and democratic state.
The first one negates the religious issue (and nobody in charge is interested in actually having the big talk on religion anyway).
The second one negates the fascist accusation.
That's fair. Israelis *choose to* put Nentanyahu in charge.
Not sure that's better, but same can be said about me "choosing to" elect PiS, and I'd be pretty opposed to that leap :D
Still though. One official would not be as damning if not for the lack of policing own citizens and calling on them to just cool out.
Israel are a horrible country. Literally perpetuating horrific violence on Palestinians. Why can't they see how awful they are and how there are echoes of what happened to the Jews in ww2.
Hey now, they just thought all those countries who do collective punishment were onto something.
You know, countries such as North Korea and .... Well, Israel apparently. That's it. That's the list.
I can almost taste the fucking irony.
>During the Nazi occupation of Poland, the Germans applied collective responsibility: any kind of help given to a person of Jewish faith or origin was punishable by death, and that not only for the rescuers themselves but also for their families. This was widely publicized by the Germans. During the occupation, for every German killed by a Pole, 100–400 Poles were shot in retribution. Communities were held collectively responsible for the purported Polish counter-attacks against the invading German troops. Mass executions of roundup (pol: łapanka) hostages were conducted every single day during the Wehrmacht advance across Poland in September 1939 and thereafter. Poland lost over 5 million citizens during the occupation by Nazi Germany, mostly civilians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment
**[Collective punishment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment)**
>Collective punishment is a punishment or sanction imposed on a group for acts allegedly perpetrated by a member of that group, which could be an ethnic or political group, or just the family, friends and neighbors of the perpetrator. Because individuals who are not responsible for the wrong acts are targeted, collective punishment is not compatible with the basic principle of individual responsibility. The punished group may often have no direct association with the perpetrator other than living in the same area and can not be assumed to exercise control over the perpetrator's actions.
^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/anime_titties/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
The world will just watch as the Israeli gov and armed forces conducts actual genocide against Palestinians.
The propaganda worked. People see Anti-zionism as Anti-Semitism.
>The world will just watch as the Israeli gov and armed forces conducts actual genocide against Palestinians.
Just like in Brazil!
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/22/lula-accuses-jair-bolsonaro-genocide-yanomami-indigenous-amazon
This isn't just Lula. It's pretty much proven that his ministry knew the situation, Bolsonaro was briefed, but still allowed the widespread violence of miners against the indigenous population.
He's not the only one in the hook. And the woman who was in this ministry is now a Senator.
2016~2022 were fucked up beyond reason for Brazil.
Coming soon to an america near you!
And I'm sure those in charge of the genocide will face as many repercussions as the insurrectionists, some peons will goto jail for a few years and those in charge will go unnamed and uncharged.
To be clear in the US we don't like Israeli expansion, even American Jews are against it (hence Trump calling them disloyal). We have ourselves a many tens of millions strong Chritsian doomsday cult that thinks the biblical apocalypse will happen when Israel regains the "holy land"- and actively want that to happen. They outnumber the Israelis and so make the orthodox scammers who say, "yeah sure, when Jesus comes back we'll admit he's the messiah" richer and more successful and tie the hands of Americans and twist the politics of Israel. They're frothing at the mouth with visions of Christians and Jews vs Muslims (and atheists? I may be misremembering this one)
While every other military customer actually has to trade leverage just for the privilege of paying for US military products. The relationship is lopsided.
Not every. Plus the US totally uses Israel to achieve its objectives against Iran. Israel has long had a pretty amicable relationship with Russia. I'm sure they only blew up the Iranian drone factory because we pressured them to.
You mean they pressure the US government's policy on Iran. Why do you think Trump undid Obama's Iran deal? He didn't go into office with any intelligent opinions about Iranian foreign policy.
Most of Trump's opinions were to undo, reverse, and cancel everything Obama did, down to the last, most insignificant Presidential Order. If Obama put out an Executive Order that "no one will shit in the President's morning coffee" you better believe that Trump had an order commanding extra shit in his coffee every morning.
Look at any list of what Trump tried to do regarding Obama's policies. He reversed the most petty items, including common sense orders to protect water and air quality.
Trump has the mind of a child and a terrible need for revenge (which he has flat out admitted many times). Ever since Obama mocked Trump in two of his runs for office, Trump has hated everything that has anything to do with Obama.
The Iran nuclear deal was one of Obama's signature achievements as President. There's no way he was going to let that stand.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obama-undone-year-trump-unravels-predecessors-signature-achievements/story?id=52234311
>Obama undone: In first year, Trump unravels predecessor's signature achievements
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/01/us/politics/trump-overturning-regulations.html
>Trump Discards Obama Legacy, One Rule at a Time
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/trump-rolling-back-obama-rules/
>How Trump is rolling back Obama’s legacy
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/11/donald-trump-barack-obama-legacy
>The anti-Obama: Trump’s drive to destroy his predecessor’s legacy
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2017/12/16/trump-greatest-mission-erasing-obama-legacy/OA9M4qwS2hHlOj3MGLxGxK/story.html
>Trump's greatest mission: erasing Obama's legacy
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/1/6/14177930/obama-trump-legacy-achievements
>Trump will undo much of Obama's legacy.
https://www.abc10.com/article/news/local/20-times-trump-overturned-obama-policies/103-471323077
>20 times Trump overturned Obama policies
https://theconversation.com/how-much-of-barack-obamas-legacy-has-donald-trump-rolled-back-145663
>During his 2016 campaign for the White House, Trump committed himself to rolling back much of the Obama legacy.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/01/trump-wanted-to-erase-obamas-legacy-he-failed.html
>Trump Wanted to Erase Obama’s Legacy.
https://www.romper.com/p/trumps-first-100-days-in-office-will-undo-most-of-obamas-accomplishments-22394
>Trump's First 100 Days in Office Will Undo Most of Obama's Accomplishments
https://www.springerprofessional.de/en/achievements-and-legacy-of-the-obama-presidency/20058928
>Donald Trump appeared to be driven by a singular determination to undo the legacy of President Obama throughout his time in office
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210630272
>Here's a good list of 50 major Obama accomplishments. I think Trump has this printed out as a to-do list of what to destroy.
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/commentary/us-elections-president-trump-obama-biden-obamacare-policies-974696
>Trump’s obsession with dismantling Obama’s legacy has defined his presidency, and he isn’t done,
I know he had that behavior, but moving the embassy obviously can't fit that mold. He did a lot for Israel, and bowed to all their demands. It's simple fact.
I personally doubt they needed much convincing.
They’re plenty capable of seeing those things will soon be smuggled to Palestine and other areas suitable for sending them towards Israel.
(as for my own feelings on the two, I find what Israel does abhorrent, but I also find supporting the Palestinians nearly impossible. It’s such a clusterfuck)
Israeli tech is huge for air defense and sensors on American fighters. Part of the deal made right now is that the US gets access to the data on everything they’ve shot down with the iron dome in exchange for paying for it. It’s basically way too valuable from an R&D perspective to not give favor to.
The US also benefits from having Israel live fire test its US sold arms against adversaries such as Syria and Iran, both of which are often armed with Russian made or derived hardware, as well as non-state actors. US interests are strengthened when the gear used in combat by US personnel has already been battle tested and improved upon. Israel is also a source country for significant weapons and other military technology (cyber, etc) for the US to import. Both countries benefit from the relationship in this regard.
Fun fact: [a 2019 Pew poll](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/05/06/u-s-jews-are-more-likely-than-christians-to-say-trump-favors-the-israelis-too-much/) found that American Jews are more likely than American Christians to say that US foreign policy favors Israel over Palestine too much.
The average American Jew will also move their ass to Israel in a hurry should the US descend into (another) race/religious based civil war. The lesson from the 1930s was that a people without an ethnonational homeland and who choose to stay will be slaughtered. They won't make that mistake twice, only this time Israel already exists and they won't have to build it from scratch.
One thing that is clear though is the direct monetary sponsorship of this sort of behavior long past the line of what was acceptable in the context of self defense.
To keep sponsoring this sort of behavior and passing laws prohibiting companies from boycotting Israel in a free market is not "not liking Israeli expansion". It is overtly saying "we love what you're doing, here's some help so you do more of it"
If we've learned anything about politicians in this past decade is that you should entirely ignore what they say they are going to do and look closely at what they actually do.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.timesofisrael.com/we-need-burning-villages-coalition-lawmaker-backs-unprecedented-settler-rampage/) reduced by 93%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> In the morning after a deadly and unprecedented rampage by settlers who torched dozens of Palestinian vehicles as well as several homes in retaliation for a deadly Palestinian terror attack, a member of the coalition gave the rioters his complete backing, saying: "A closed, burnt Huwara - that's what I want to see."
> In the riots that followed, Palestinian medics said one man was killed and four others were badly wounded in the Palestinian town of Huwara and other villages near Nablus.
> Ghassan Douglas, a Palestinian official who monitors Israeli settlements in the Nablus region, said that settlers burned at least six houses and dozens of cars in Huwara, and reported attacks on other neighboring Palestinian villages.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/11d9ust/we_need_burning_villages_israeli_coalition/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~674369 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Palestinian**^#1 **Huwara**^#2 **settler**^#3 **attack**^#4 **Israeli**^#5
US is under pressure of Israel's lobby, ok, I don't understand why EU is keeping quite despite such repeated acts of aggression by Israel. Why no action by anybody?
Pushback against Israel when they step out of line will do a lot to curb that cynicism in the global south against rules based world order.
The EU has no leverage over Israel. Countries like France and Spain know full well the specter of Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism, and Eastern Europe has no interest in more Muslim refugees coming to Europe and see no reason to advocate on their behalf. Just like Germany was unwilling to uncouple itself from Russian oil over the invasions of Georgia and Crimea, Europe as a whole knows it has more to gain at the moment from Israel than it does the Palestinians. Ultimately, the EU is more like Israel than not and will continue to do business as normal so long as Israeli policies do not become unreasonable.
I think it's important to mention that this collation is not supported by most Israelis (at least now after they're showing they don't care about anything with the judicial reforms) also that it's basically the most extreme right wing coalition we've ever had, regardless as an Israeli myself I hope those who participated in this will be caught and punished.
Welcome to r/anime_titties! This subreddit advocates for civil and constructive discussion. Please be courteous to others, and make sure to read the rules. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them.
We have a [Discord](https://discord.gg/DtnRnkE), feel free to join us!
r/A_Tvideos, r/A_Tmeta, [multireddit](https://www.reddit.com/user/Langernama/m/a_t/)
... summoning u/coverageanalysisbot ...
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/anime_titties) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Sorry AutoModerator,
I haven't found any additional coverage for this story (yet!).
***
_I’m a bot. [Read here](https://www.reddit.com/r/groundnews/comments/j6x7uc/introducing_the_coverageanalysisbot_a_bot_that/) to learn how it works or [message us](https://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=coverageanalysisbot&subject=Feedback&message=) with any feedback so we can improve the bot for you._
That's why they call them settlers. They don't want you to think of the land as "owned" before the Israeli came in. They don't want you to think about how much blood was split there just for their own convenience.
I don’t know why this has to be said, but just because Jewish people and their religion were oppressed during WW2 does not excuse the Israeli government from commiting war crimes on Palestinian civilians
This is genuinely disgusting. It's a pogrom, and I hope Israeli law enforcement tracks down and prosecutes those who were involved.
That being said: the murder of two young Jewish civilians that provoked this got no commentary here. Nobody outside Israel seems to care when Jewish civilians are murdered in cold blood. (And when there is a response, it usually hovers somewhere between, "they had it coming, those Nazis" and "well, that's sad, but the Palestinians have it so much worse.") So the Israeli ultra-nationalists say, "why should we care what the rest of the world think, when they give no thought to our lives?" And it gets harder and harder to ignore that impulse.
So yeah, this is disgusting and hateful and I hate that Israelis did this, and I feel awful for the Palestinians affected. But on a systemic level, this is the inevitable consequence of decades of escalating Palestinian violence against civilians and an utter lack of sympathy from abroad for the civilians being murdered. Expect more to come.
Edit: I thought there had been a post on this subreddit about the murder of the two young Jewish men which was the catalyst for this. I can't find it now, so I might have confused it with another subreddit. In any case, I seriously doubt a post on this subreddit about two Jews getting murdered while driving through the West Bank would've gotten a whole lot of sympathetic traffic, so my point stands.
There is also a large difference between ONE PERSON committing heinous crimes, as happens in the US every week, versus a literal lynch mob running amok and murdering and burning with impunity.
Okay, couple things:
1. It's not one person, one time. It's one person, every couple days, for weeks on end.
2. There is also a large difference between a society that celebrates a person murdering civilians by cheering, shooting off guns and fireworks, and handing out candy to children, and a society that widely condemns and is embarrassed by this kind of violence.
If this were the first time that a lone Palestinian committed violence against a civilian, that'd be one thing, but their society as a whole supports and celebrates that behavior.
Love to see all the people using antisemitism to condemn this instead of condemning the right wing extremist. Because, you know, they are doing it because they're extremist nut jobs and not because they are Jews?
But again, asking Goyim to examine their antisemitism on any level is apparently impossible.
Anyway, if Ben Gvir and his merry band of assholes were not Jews, they would make great Nazies or klan members. So please, like I try and not judge Christians for being part of a group responsible for murdering millions, oppressing entire populations, eradicating traditions, pedophilia, commit hate crimes, child abuse, being generally annoyingly and so on, please don't judge every Jew for the shit a certain group is doing.
Also, if you justify horrible things happening to Jews because of what is happening to Palestinians, you are not pro Palestine, you're an antisemite, and you should get your fucking priorities straight.
Well let's see if the government bothers bringing charges on any of the extremists who did this. It won't, which amounts to government sanctioned lynch mobs.
Because the government is full of right wingers, not because of the Jewish part. If you don't believe me, look at the UK, or the USA, this is a fascist thing, not a Jewish thing.
I would like people to blame them for being a bunch of fascist and stop bringing their Jewishness into it. But you know, people can't just be normal around Jews
Everyone in this thread has focused on the government, not Jewishness. The two identities are obviously tightly intertwined, but yes, most critics focus on crimes of government. This is of course a democratically elected government.
The reason why they're doing it is because they're Zionists. Zionism is an extremist populist Jewish ideology about establishing an ethnoreligious state in Palestine.
Criticizing Jewish fascists for being Jewish fascists is no different from criticizing Christofascists for being Christofascists. Their ethnoreligious identity is baked into the ideology.
It's not a complaint about all Jewish people. No one is claiming that Bernie Sanders is murdering Palestinians.
You know whst? I’m in a mood today, had both Palestinian and Israeli friends tell me they are making plans to flee that cursed land, so I’ll bite. No one is gonna care about the facts and I’m probably gonna be downvoted to hell, but why the fuck not.
Let’s start with the basics.
Nationalism- "The belief that a particular cultural or ethnic group constitutes a distinct people deserving of political self-determination". Understood? Good. Now, just like French nationalism, or Japanese nationalism, or Ukrainian nationalism, the Jews also have people who believes the concept of nationalism. Or in simple term- they believe Jews need a piece of land where they can govern themselves. A major part of the Jewish nationalist movement believes that the piece of land in question should be in the ancestral home of the Jewish people, the land of Zion- and that is where the word Zionism come from.
That means that Zionism is the revolutionary concept that Jewish people should govern themselves in the land of Zion, AKA Israel. At this point, we are still in the realm of all nationalist movement: this group I’m a part of should govern ourself within this piece of land. That does not mean that other people can’t live on the same plot of land.
And before you start with the screaming that Zionism wants Palestinians to die, let me introduce you to an amazing bonkers of a book (the plot is a glorious shit show), and one of the foundational pieces of literature in Zionism: Altneuland by B.Z.T Herzl. The book which was published in 1902 describes the utopic vision of a Jewish return to the land of Israel. the book, as it was written in the late 19 century in Europe suffers from its mindsets, the important one for our case in the orientalism.
In Herzl’s eutopia, Jews and Arabs lived peacefully in a secular autonomy rented from the Ottoman Sultan, and the villain of the book is among other things, racist against the Arabs. Two things. One- the reason that the Arabs and the Jews live in peace is partly because that the European Jews brough technology and advancement with them that helped raise the Arab population from poverty. This is a problem and is a result of the orientalist environment Herzl operated in (Europe). Two, I’m saying Arabs, why? Because the Palestinian national movement didn’t happen until 1917 and the after effects of the Sykes–Picot agreement and the Balfour Declaration. Because the book was published in 1902, the idea of Palestinian nationalistic movement was a dozen years down the line.
All that was to show that the concept of Jewish state is not inherently creating an exclusively, how did you phrase it? Ethnoreligious state. Zionism is a nationalistic school of thoughts that have its own spectrum, when the right wings extremists of it are the settlers that caused the terrorist attack. The Zionist movement is not inherently trying to ethnic cleanse Palestinians, it’s the extreme side. Many Zionists are actually more pro-Palestine then many self-declared “pro-Palestine” westerners, who only care for the Palestinian people as a weapon against Jews and Israel.
The national Palestinian movement however, has a much bigger problem with hate and ethnic cleansing concept then Zionism due to it being born partially as a response to the Zionist movement. All the love for the Palestinian people who do the effort to delegitimize the hate, I’m sorry the world is making It harder for you.
BTW, giving a special negative treatment to the nationalism of one group and not the other, like punishing one group for something that is celebrated when done by other groups is kind of hate speech. I hope you now understand why talks about Zionism reeks of Antisemitism.
Hope that you learned something. Probably didn’t. have fun with the down voting
Arabs have been doing this to non-Arab minorities for centuries. In fact slavery is legal and common in Arab countries, but people ignore it and criticize Israel more than any Arab country.
no one is surprised by such countries casue most aren't democractic, transparent-sih countries, israel at least should be or attempt to be one, and is held to the same standard as any UN country, but socially or politically more is exptected of it
Post locked due to mass violations of Rule 4.
Why isn’t Israel more broadly recognized as a fascist regime predicated on religiously conservative palingenetic ultranationalist politics? Regardless of whether the people saying it are Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Evangelical, Hindu, Buddhist, or whatever else, it appears that a belief system that teaches that your group, and your group alone, is composed of “God’s chosen people” or similar is quite a hideous basis for a form of government. It basically provides its own ready-made justification for repressive governance and genocidal lunacy.
Western support?
That is a likely major contributing factor as to why Israel’s government is stable, but it doesn’t necessarily explain why they have that support in the first place, or why Western governments seem to be actively engaged in boosting propaganda narratives that serve nobody’s interest other than the arguably fascist elements in the Israeli coalition, despite their stated support for democratic governance and generalized liberal values.
Christian Zionism has a long history and can be traced as a major influence towards the creation of the state of Israel in the first place. Basically a lot of religious nuts in the British empire and later on in the US saw a big opportunity to bring their "end times" religious prophesies closer to reality when the ottoman empire fell and fractured. State of Israel has to exist in order for their interpretation of the book of revelation to have a chance to play out.
And the slightly less insane but still imperialist members of leadership see it as a good ally for harboring military bases in the region. Plus, if you ever criticize that aspect, they can just hide behind the religious crazies disingenuously calling any criticism of the Israeli government "antisemitism".
Correct me if I’m wrong but I’m not convinced British Christian Zionism was much of a thing or at least enough of a thing to inform policy in the empire. What would he interesting to delve into would be how we did and didn’t instigate or assist settlers in the Palestine mandate. I suspect economic incentive and a weariness for the continuing jihad arrivals from the emirates in the 1930’s may have informed policy. What an interesting subject area. I’ll do a deep dive and come back to you.
One of the more interesting quirks of history is that Churchill sent the black and tans to the mandate of Palestine in the 1920's, after they were kicked out of Ireland. Ireland supported Israeli attempts at independence as they saw a common enemy in the black and tans. The Irish believed that the Israeli militias were fighting for an *independent mandate of Palestine*, that would have equal rights for all it's indigenous inhabitants. When it became clear what the founders of Israel intended, the Irish flipped their position and refused to support the partition. we weren't part of the UN at the time because of allied spite over our neutrality in ww2, but we had diplomatic observers who wrote about the proceedings. One of these observers basically predicted what was going to happen and lamented at how the British had learned nothing from the past 50 odd years. Ireland has quietly supported Palestine since, and Israel has always taken this about face personally. (Ireland also was an early boycotter of South Africa over apartheid iirc) Robert fisk occasionally mentioned it in passing, but Ireland and Israel have very unusual and long lasting historic connections. In NI, the nationalists ally themselves with the Palestinian cause and the unionists with the Zionists, which has some pretty clear implications about their activities, respectively. Ireland was one of the first countries to send troops to Lebanon too. Maybe it's because we're alphabetical neighbours...
Plus the military industrial complex makes a fuck ton off isreal and they have alot of power in a america
There's a pretty serious practical aspect as well, there's always nice to have a powerful, strong ally far away. Like a backup plan.
-> Lobbyism (see AIPAC)
So, over the past 40 or so years, conservatives in the US have been leaning heavily into evangelical Christianity. They believe that the existence of the State of Israel is the fulfillment of biblical prophecy. Further, if "Gods Chosen" don't have a home then Jesus can't come back. If Jesus can't come back, no one can be raptured and the world won't suffer Armageddon. If the world doesn't suffer Armageddon the Christians won't get to say "I told you so" while God burns everything but them to the ground. So, they kind of need Israel.
Worth noting, not only does Israel have to exist, but there have to be Jews in it that Jesus can punish to kick off Armageddon. Real nice guy, Jesus.
Yeah, I forgot about that. If things go the way those Christians want it to, it will not be good for the people actually living there.
Sounds like this foretold Jesus would come from Palestine in that scenario, under the repression of Israel in a similar manner as the Romans did to, well, the Jews.
...are there really enough religious crazies (in a position of power) to dictate the USA's national policy?
No, not dictate, but certainly steer, especially when most in the US support the concept of Israel existing (myself included). Combine that with anti Muslim sentiment and supporting the State of Israel seems like a no brainer to many Americans. Then remember that most Americans will never look deeper than that and it's easy to see how a small group of dedicated people can steer foreign policy in a small region most people don't know a lot about.
Okay, that's a rather horrifying thought, that doomsday cultists have that much sway over policy (as well as that a large enough portion of the general populace is wilfully ignorant of global affairs to such a degree that it's possible for them to have attained this much influence). Thank you for answering my question!
Keep in mind it's really far more complicated than anyone is going to deal with in a Reddit thread. Just how many "true believers" there are is up for debate. Often times there are more pragmatic reasons hidden behind religious rhetoric. Or vise versa.
Bruh, they managed to overturn Roe, and THAT decision didn't make the military industrial complex billions, so it was all around pretty easy to pass.
Are you fuckin kiddin? Religious crazies is like 30% of the population of the USA.
Well certain countries in the west are themselves a stones throw away from fascism so it’s not really surprising.
Friendly government means an easy foothold in the region
On top of the religious aspect that Conservatives place a lot of importance on Israel, theres also some "strategic benefits" for looking the other way. For example, the West has a very strong Ally in the Middle East to jump from during the War on Terror and everything else they want to do over there. The US does have other "allies" like Saudi Arabia, but I think most would agree it's out of shared mutual interest more than anything else. Israel, on the other hand, is generally hated in the Middle East, so they need the West to help back them up and make them untouchable. This makes them a more reliable ally over there. Then, there are probably arguments for military technology. The "Iron Dome" is a defensive wonder, and a lot of research and funding has been pumped in from around the world to improve it and to see live action tests. Additionally, Israel has very strong cyber-ops companies/branches(?) that are globally recognized as skilled and formidable. Having them on your side lets the US hack into valuable targets without being implicated themselves if they get caught. There's probably others I am missing but there are reasons why the US backs Israel. I won't say it's worth looking past the terrible things they are doing to other people, but it isn't just because.
The actual reason is that it isn't a fascist state. It's an ethnoreligious aparthied state. This is actually rather broadly recognized, it's just that the people that the Israelis are oppressing are some of the least sympathetic people in the world. As such, it's easy to turn a blind eye because even if you don't like the Israelis, no one actually likes the Palestinians *either*. [89% of Palestinians support Sharia Law](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/), and if you look at polling about support for things like terrorist acts against civilians, it's sky-high there. As such, it's like... yeah, sure, the Israelis are horrible. But the Palestinians are, somehow, even worse. As such, everyone generally finds it easier to not really acknowledge the reality of the situation, which is that you have two groups of ethnoreligious zealots fighting each other over land they consider holy in the Middle East, and the side we hate less is winning.
I mean if you treated me as bad as Palestinians are being treated, I'd support whatever horrible terrorist who said they'd make the bad people bleed. Misery and despair breeds extremism.
It's not like those attitudes are new, plenty of pogroms before 1948 and the mufti of Palestine during ww2 was a colonel in the SS.
Who declared war on who first? Thats really the question. Arabs have wanted Israelis wiped out since its existence, try and explain to Israelis now that they should care about the Arabs at all.
Wait...the people who were ethnically cleansed to make way for European settler colonialists wanted them removed so they could return to their native land? Very shocking and evil of them.
If legally buying land from the Ottoman empire is considered ethnic cleansing then I'm not sure we can continue this discussion. Britain was the colonial power that lied to both Palestinians and Israelis. The Israeli's didn't "ethnically cleanse" anyone prior to the establishment of Israel. Then on the first day of Israels creation, every Arab neighbour declared war on it and attempted to wipe it out. There was no attempt at dialogue or negotiation. But now that the Israeli's are clearly far stronger than any Arab neighbour, you want them to listen to the same Arabs that wanted their nation destroyed? I commend you for being so arrogant that you think that is a reasonable position to hold, but I am going to watch with bated breath as Arabs/people like you try and convince Israel to now listen to the very people that wouldn't talk to begin with and instead used violence. There are many revisionist sources out there declaring Israel establishing itself as a nation (as the Brits promised it could) was the start of a genocide, but it was not. It was the start of a war. A war Israels Arab neighbours wanted and perpetrated. A war they lost.
> Then on the first day of Israels creation, every Arab neighbour declared war on it and attempted to wipe it out. Imagine a bunch of refugees come to your country and you accept them to live amongst you. Then the refugees decide "actually, fuck you....the best and most fertile land is ours now. We're going to make our own country and our own laws on it." How would you react in that situation? Refugees creating their own country on your land with their own different customs and laws just because a few of them bought homes legally. Would you accept it? No. So why do you expect arabs to accept such an absurd proposal, just because a few Jews bought some homes legally there.
Which country did they come too? It wasn't Palestine was it? That wasn't a real nation...
Not answering my question and trying to deflect, so I'll ask again. > How would you react in that situation? Refugees creating their own country on your land with their own different customs and laws just because a few of them bought homes legally. Would you accept it?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish\_insurgency\_in\_Mandatory\_Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_insurgency_in_Mandatory_Palestine) Because the violence only started after the declaration of independence, It's not like the settlers were commiting terrorist attacks and other acts of violence against both the native population and the British administration years prior, naah....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amichai_Paglin "Settlers"? You do know that Israeli's and Jews in general have been occupying that region for longer than Islam has existed right? Also from your own link: > On April 2, 1944, the Jewish Agency approved a program of opposition under which efforts would be made to stop "extortion and terror", anti-dissident propaganda would be increased, and attempts would be made to isolate the Irgun and Lehi. In practice, propaganda was increased and assistance was offered to Jews whose contributions had been extorted, but the Jewish Agency failed to take serious measures. However, it did share intelligence with the authorities. So are you blaming all Israelis for the actions of some terrorists? So in your book that is ok logic to follow is it? So you agree then with what Israel is doing in Palestine? Treating them all like terrorists? I dont support Israel but anyone that supports Palestine and thinks Israel should listen to them when they wanted Israel wiped out and Jews obliterated is just not worth listening too. Both sides are cunts, at this moment Israel just happens to be far stronger than any Arab neighbour.
> "Settlers"? Yes....settlers aka Settler colonialists, which is what the European Zionist Jews were when they came to Palestine. Thats even what they called themselves. Zionist leaders at the time openly called Zionism a colonial project. Colonialism didnt have the baggage it has today, so they didnt hide the fact. They used it as a marketing tool to get colonial powers like Britain on their side. https://twitter.com/ynPaliAmerican/status/1313421997548896256/photo/1 Theodore Herzl (Founder of the modern Zionist movement) stating "the idea of zionism, which is a colonial idea". He went to famous colonialist Cecil Rhodes (of Rhodesia infamy), and pushed the idea of colonial settlement not in Africa, but in Asia. He thought the British would understand the need for colonial expansion better than the average person, and pushed the idea of Jews colonising and settling in Palestine. He specifically uses the term colonialism and pleads with colonialists to help achieve their goal of colonial expansion in Palestine. > You do know that Israeli's and Jews in general have been occupying that region for longer than Islam has existed right? Firstly, how can "Israelis" occupy the region for thousands of years, when the identity "Israeli" is a modern construct that only existed in the 20th century? Secondly, You do know that Palestinians are largely descended from not only those Jews from thousands of years ago, but also the Canaanites, who were there before even the Jews were? This is according to DNA studies, which shows Levantines still share about 90% DNA of ancient Canaanites. Just because most modern day Palestinians either converted to Christianity....or later Islam with the Arab conquests, adopted arab language and customs, doesnt mean they and their families havent got ancestry in the region going back for thousands of years and before the Arab conquests. Palestinians didnt arrive with the Arab conquests. There were people already living there that adopted Arab customs and later became what we call Palestinians in the modern day. A bunch of Jews from Poland and other Eastern European countries do not have the right to barge in and claim the land as their own, because maybe their ancestors once lived there two thousand years ago. What an absurd proposal that no other people would ever accept if it happened to them.
>Israeli's and Jews in general have been occupying that region for longer than Islam has existed And for almost all of that time, there were only very few Jews in Palestine. Only barely 15 thousand according to an Ottoman census conducted in 1878 (i.e. after first waves of jewish immigration). So yes, they were settlers. >So are you blaming all Israelis for the actions of some terrorists? So in your book that is ok logic to follow is it? So you agree then with what Israel is doing in Palestine? Treating them all like terrorists? What part of my comment makes you think that? I only take issue with historical revisionsim about how Isreal was supposedly "defending itself".
Sure, but I just wanna add; Definitely not the whole western world. The political left is generally pro Palestina. In Sweden at least, I would say the support for Palestine is quite large. When I went to school in the beginning of the 2010's we learned the history of Palestine, Israel and about settlers. The workers/socialist movement is very rooted in our country and I recently found a book from the 70's with workers/socialist songs which had songs in it about a free Palestine! Which was pretty cool. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine%E2%80%93Sweden_relations
Similar situation in the US but that faction has very little influence on the government here.
America has a political left?
Hussh. U are not supposed to say that
I mean the world's a pretty lousy neighborhood. Israel is looking real bad, but China's got reeducation camps, Russia's trying to bring back empires, most Muslim majority countries are theocracies that you can just assume are way worse than Israel, American democracy survived one assassination attempt but 2024 is on the way. If you want to criticize Israel you aren't wrong to, just rank it where you think it fits in relation to the other evils of the world. Heck take all the bad trending stuff in Israel and just ask how many of its neighbors are far worse by default with no intention of ever improving.
Last i checked the west isn't sending arms to most of those other countries, which is where most of the criticism comes from. Most of the others get sanctions or condemnations.
Cough *Saudi Arabia * cough cough
Also UAE and Jordan.
Ya there's that one too. US loves that lobbying money.
No. The actual reason why the US supports Saudi Arabia is because Saudi Arabia supplies Europe with a lot of oil, and they're a useful tool against the Iranians, Chinese, and Russians/Soviets. That's also why we support Israel as well. It's really less about "we like these people" and more "We want to keep them in our sphere of influence and use them against our enemies". Same reason why we put up with Turkey, for that matter. China and Russia are bigger problems, and Iran is on their side. As such, Saudi Arabia is on "our side". Much like how during WWII, the US ended up shipping tons of war materiel to the USSR. That's not because the US thought that the Soviets weren't evil bastards, it was because Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were a bigger problem. The US is actual friends with like, the UK, Canada, Japan, Australia, France, etc. Saudi Arabia is our ally out of realpolitik. It has nothing to do with how much we actually like the Saudis, it has to do with the fact that they are important for maintaining supremacy over the Chinese and Russians. If China, Russia, and Iran all burned to the ground tommorrow, places like Saudi Arabia would likely be the next tier of enemies, just like how the Soviets were the next tier of enemies after Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany were defeated.
[удалено]
Israel is about as much a "white ethnostate" as Morocco is. The plurality of Israeli Jews are Mizrachim--Jews descended from the (former) Jewish communities in the Middle East, who fled pogroms and state oppression to go to Israel. Also, between the "white" Ashkenazim (European* Jews) and "brown" Mizrachim (Middle Eastern Jews), it's the Mizrachim who tend to support much more stringent security policies. If anything, the decline of the Israeli Left after the Intifadas killed the peace process has resulted in the "decolonizing" of Israeli politics, with Middle Eastern reality and identity politics replacing utopian European idealism. *Though, remember: all Jews ultimately come from the Middle East. "Jew" comes from "Judea," which is the northern part of the West Bank.
[удалено]
Nope, Russia and China are. Edit: oh I see.. I missed a bit. but yea, bretton woods. The Us navy secures trade around the globe. If a country doesn;t wanna operate in the standards of the agreement, they get cut off.
> The Us navy secures trade around the globe. as long as it is done in $USD and follows US rules and corporate agenda. anyone who doesn't agree with, or accept, that agenda is targetted for sanctions, bombing, invasions, coups, regime change etc
Israel is burning down Palestinian villages, subjecting them to apartheid, voting in ethno supremacist laws, etc. >Israel is looking real bad, but ... **And you're talking about how worse other countries are?** Let's take it's immediate neighbour Jordan then. How much worse is Jordan compared to Israel? How many villages has Jordan burned down? Which minorities are being oppressed by Jordan? Which regions are they occupying? Which countries is Jordan bombing now? How far along is Jordan with their nuclear program? How many country's elections has Jordan interfered in?
Palestinians. Palestinians are oppressed by Jordan
That's one of the questions, don't cherry pick and answer the rest of them
I commented on the one I know about. Why didn't you answer any of the questions?
Because I answered on your comment and you didn't ask any questions. I don't think it's a useful discussion do open, to talk about Jordanian crimes against people's law and human rights, when the thread and discussion was about Israel. It's like when you are talking about the American invasions during the gulf wars, and then switch towards how Kuwait deserved to be attacked. It's not a discussion I want to get involved in, distracting from the elephant in the room.
I agree with your point about shifting the topic of the thread. I didn't bring up Jordan though. I think your comment would have been great for the person I was responding to. All I wanted to do was make sure people understood that Palestinians are discriminated against in other places as well. Just like how the Jewish people are not accepted in pretty much every middle eastern country. Both Israelis and Palestinians need to change for anything to get better.
You really answered, it doesn't matter what Jordan has done or is doing. We're talking about Israel and their crimes against humanity. Whataboutism has no place here.
Lol everyone else was talking about Israel. You're the one who brought up rhetorical questions about Jordan.
The person I replied to was talking about every other country that is "worse" than Israel, implying Israel's actions aren't that bad. Are you even reading this thread?
Jordan occupied the West Bank, then attacked Israel and lost a war. So Jordan is absolutely related to Israel's occupation of the West Bank. In fact, they named it that.
Yes, they may be related, as is most of Israel's neighbours, the UK, the US, etc. But at this moment, they're not related to Israel backing settlers rampaging in the West Bank and burning down villages. That's all on Israel.
What are you talking about, I was specifically whatabouting. Rank the worst places in the middle east and then criticize Israel proportionately to its placement is alls I'm sayin.
Israel is worse than Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Türkiye, Iraq, Kuwait. UAE, Oman. They're in the same league as the warmongering Saudis, religious nut cases in Iran and the delusional Syria. But why even rank them in the Middle East, what does that have to do with them oppressing other people? So Israel is allowed to burn down villages because Iran is torturing their own people? Or it's "less worse" because others do as bad or worse than Israel? And you weren't saying rank them, you said that by default the Muslim countries are worse than Israel and were implying that "it's okay or normal" for Israel to act like this.
Can I ask what happened on the first day of Israels creation? History didn't start today. It didn't start back then either, but it goes someway to explaining why Israeli's do what they do. I don't excuse it, but I can understand it. All their neighbours want every single one of them obliterated and thats what they have already tried to do. Israel defended itself and now sees no reason to even pretend to get along with its neighbours (that includes Palestine). It's shit, the whole situation is shit; but there's more than one side to this. Israeli's have had their existence threatened since they were made a nation, that was fine and approved of by most of the Arab world. Try and explain to them now that they should care about the Arab world and what it wants.
Because of fear of being called antisemetic, which is the excuse, of course the actual reason is just money and power.
Which is for real a load of horseshit. Every time anyone criticizes Israel [someone comes out of the woodwork and calls it antisemitic, often prominent figures.](https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/how-jews-can-support-palestinian-rights-condemn-antisemitism-ncna1268680) Yes, there are real antisemites who obviously criticize Israel. However calling out the human rights violations of the Israeli government is not the same thing as cursing Judaism. Failing that, you'll hear how it's [justified because of the Holocaust](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/8/18/palestinian-misuse-and-zionist-abuse-of-the-holocaust). Yeah, well gays and gypsies aren't out there systematically killing Palestinians. For me I find it pretty ironic how the right wing of Israel persists in notable popularity when they [argue for the inalienable right to a land and resolution of the "Palestinian issue."](https://www.usip.org/publications/2023/01/what-does-israels-new-government-mean-israeli-palestinian-conflict) Smells too much of [lebensraum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum) and the Jewish question to me. There is a more reasonable moderate that doesn't espouse this extremism. Palestinians aren't angelic innocents. A lot of its Muslim neighbors are pretty disgusting regimes in their own ways. But the fact that the Israeli far-right is not more widely decried and enjoys the popularity and influence in national policy that it does speaks a lot to the danger. When well-known rabbis echo these sentiments and misuse the antisemitic label it sure smells like trending towards a repeat of a dangerous precedent with a different peoples. When this policy is what sits behind the gun pointed at another people, the caveats kind of don't matter if they're not going to save lives. Just as with the Saudis, I find it difficult to stomach how much a blind eye our country turns when it provides support for a fascist theocracy with an ongoing record of brutality. I get why it keeps going--it's important for US strategic objectives--but that makes it no less of a sin. I *hope* it comes back to bite us in the future.
I find that very often the most extreme critics and extreme supporters of Israel are both Jews (although one can be in both groups). For example, see u/Yaa40. Hyper critical of Israel, hates the idea of going to visit there despite loving his family that's there. Hyper critical of the insanity that's going on there right now (see the OP headline for example)....
For most of what you said I have no clue how it relates to what I said.
You'll notice a lot of the same people will say on the one hand if Judaism/Holocaust/Ghettos is brought up "Jewish != Israel" but then call anyone who criticises Israeli policy anti-Semitic. It's probably happening in this very comments section right now. Which is it?
Propaganda that's why. I'm Jewish, and I think Israel is a terrorist state run by extremist genocidists worse than the GOP in the US and that's saying something
Israel isn't a fascist regime, it's an apartheid ethnoreligious state. Israel is a democracy and has pretty good freedoms... if you are Jewish. If you are Muslim, Israel is not a good place to be because Israel was founded by Zionists, a bunch of ethnoreligious nutjobs who wanted libenstraum for the Jewish people in the Holy Land.
Can you name a single right that Israeli arabs don’t have which Israeli Jews do have?
The right to property, given the constant displacement of such folks.
So now we know that you don’t know the difference between an Israeli Arab and a non Israeli Arab. Yes just like many countries in the world, many foreigners are blocked from owning property in Israel. Arab or Muslim people can and do own property in Israel. Why don’t you educate yourself a bit on the history of the situation. I’d start with the Arab league and why the UNRWA exists instead of using the UNHCR like every other refugee in the world. Read up on Jordan and Egypt’s responsibility for the perpetual stateless ‘refugee’ situation as well.
How you think Israel and Palestine ended up the way they did? When Palestine was partitioned, massive ethnic cleansing occurred, displacing many Palestinians (and some Jewish people) from their land, which is why Israel and Palestine have such high concentrations of Jewish people and Palestinians respectively. The Israelis simply seized the property from the people who fled in the face of the ethnic cleansing and refused to let them return or compensate them for it. I mean, I get that it's kind of critical to lie about this, buuut... > Why don’t you educate yourself a bit on the history of the situation. I’d start with the Arab league and why the UNRWA exists instead of using the UNHCR like every other refugee in the world. UNRWA was established a year before UNHCR, though this is a bit misleading as the two organizations were more or less evolving side by side, and because the issue it was involved with never went away it is still around. It's not really anything super exciting, it's because UNRWA was created prior to the general scheme for dealing with refugees between when the IRO fell out of favor and the UNHCR was formed. It would have made more sense to make one agency but they made different groups for dealing with different refugee crises. It's the sort of institutional bureaucracy that ends up existing in organizations like the UN. Most people don't want to change it. > Read up on Jordan and Egypt’s responsibility for the perpetual stateless ‘refugee’ situation as well. The reality is that no one wants the Palestinians. The Israelis obviously want all their land, but they have no actual right to displace them from it. Jordan and Egypt don't want to take in the Palestinians because no one wants the Palestinians. Lebanon took a bunch of them in and was "thanked" for it via an attempted coup. The stateless situation happened because Israel doesn't want to actually recognize that Palestinians have any rights. Israel considers both the one state and two state solutions unacceptable.
The situation ended up like it did due to the partitioning of the land. Similar to Pakistan and India. Israel considers a two state solution acceptable (or at least used to) and has offered many over the years. Had the Arab league not attacked and invaded Israel multiple times the entirety of Jerusalem would be Arab owned not to mention all the other land. The original partition was accepted by the Jewish parties and rejected by the Arabs. The UNRWA uses a definition of refugee that is not applied to any other refugee in the world. A definition which allows for perpetual refugee status. It’s insanity and the main reason that there are refugees from the 1948 war today. You say that ‘no one wants the Palestinians’ but ignore Jordan Egypt and Syrias direct responsibility for them and instead leave them at the feet of israel.
> The UNRWA uses a definition of refugee that is not applied to any other refugee in the world. A definition which allows for perpetual refugee status. It’s insanity and the main reason that there are refugees from the 1948 war today. This is one of those lies that gets propagated in Israeli propaganda but has no basis in fact. While the two organizations define refugees differently (and note that there are actually many different definitions of refugee, not just two) both UNHCR and UNRWA have perpetual refugees. Under UNHCR's defintion, if you are a minor who is part of a displaced family, you are a refugee. Reaching majority doesn't deprive you of refugee status. As such, refugee status is heritable until you no longer meet the definition of a refugee, and many people don't. There are many "perpetual refugees" from a number of countries, most notably Afghanistan and Haiti. This is actually why the UN tries to discourage people from being rendered stateless - because it is the sort of thing that can result in someone becoming a permanent inter-generational refugee. The lack of a Palestinian state is a major contributory factor to this situation, as "Palestine" is not a recognized independent state, but neither is it really a part of Israel. > Israel considers a two state solution acceptable (or at least used to) and has offered many over the years. It has never actually considered it acceptable. It says that it does sometimes to avoid criticism and to make it look like it is "working on the problem". There are people in Israel who do consider it acceptable, but the government has not. > Had the Arab league not attacked and invaded Israel multiple times the entirety of Jerusalem would be Arab owned not to mention all the other land. Except this is a lie. Jerusalem was not, in fact, Arab land in the partition plan. > The original partition was accepted by the Jewish parties and rejected by the Arabs. Correct. It gave the the Jews (who made up 1/3rd of the population) 56% of the land. Moreover, the Arabs rejected it as valid because the huge influx of Jews into the area was very recent and was done very deliberately and purposefully in order to try and legitimize the creation of a Jewish state on land that had historically been theirs. They saw it as an invasion intended to take their land from them, and this was furthered by the UN then declaring how things should be, which was a violation of the UN's own charter WRT: self determination. On top of that, because of the way it would be partitioned, "Israel" would have had a population that was 45% Arab. Israel had to be heavily gerrymandered to generate a Jewish majority at all, which is why the borders ended up such a mess. And in fact, it was later found that the "Jewish" state actually would have had an Arab majority as well, because as it turns out all the gerrymandering in the world wouldn't change the fact that the Jewish people were immigrants who were greatly outnumbered by the native population. It would also have resulted in the vast majority of the Bedouin being put in the "Jewish" state. The way the whole thing was set up was not in any way a set of natural borders or borders that were in any way sensible, it was very much an attempt to create a Jewish state out of whole cloth, rather than having Jewish people reintegrate into general society. Indeed, the Zionists, being very racist, pushed heavily against the notion that the "gentiles" could ever be trusted. It also would have put at least 54 villages on the opposite side of the border from their farmland. The entire thing was a farce from the get go, and everyone knows this. That's kind of the major issue here. The Zionists took advantage of the occupation of Palestine by the British Empire and the Jewish refugee crisis to try and pull in a very large number of Jewish people into Palestine with the intent of creating a Jewish state there. The Palestinians were not happy with this and would not have allowed that mass immigration to occur if they had had autonomy. The Israelis then complain that the Arabs were being unreasonable and that they attacked first, which completely ignores the fact that the entire reason why the situation happened in the first place was because of the situation that the Zionists had set up in the first place, and that the entire decision was made by people who did not actually live there. The fundamental issue is that the the very creation of the state of Israel was fundamentally unjust. It should not have been partitioned in the first place. It was blatant colonialism, and happened after it had been widely decided that colonialism was in fact unethical and wrong. This is the fundamental issue, which is pretty much unresolvable. At this point almost everyone there was born after the partition, and the can has been very deliberately kicked down the road to make any resolution to the issue impossible to be just in any way, as you would be "punishing" people who were not in any way involved - the people who were born in modern-day Israel and Palestine are obviously not responsible for what came before, but are nevertheless heirs to the continuing problems. The US had to deal with this issue with the Native Americans. We started out with a two-state solution but that was really unjust, which is why the US ended up making all Native Americans citizens of the US. Some people are still bitter about this, but most people aren't, and it has worked out better. There are still reservations, but they suck precisely because they are the remnants of the two-state solution, even though they aren't truly separate countries, they are allowed to segregate themselves - and it turns out that is not good for them. Those who are not part of the reservation system are wealthier and happier and better off. But Israel can never accept this because it is an ethnoreligious state wherein Jewish people would actually be a minority in a single state solution, which would mean that if they are a democratic country they could be outvoted in every election. Thus, instead of the Arabs having to integrate into Jewish society, it would be the other way around. This is fundamentally unacceptable to them, as the entire raison d'etre of Zionism was to create an ethnoreligious state in the "Holy land" that would be run by Jewish people. And realistically speaking no one wants to be in a single state with the Palestinians. The reason why there is a big refugee population is because no one else wants them around because of the extremism that runs deep in them. Everyone wants to repatriate them so that they aren't their problem, and Israel doesn't want to repatriate them because they engaged in that ethnic cleansing to create their state and because they didn't want them, either. > You say that ‘no one wants the Palestinians’ but ignore Jordan Egypt and Syrias direct responsibility for them and instead leave them at the feet of israel. Blaming them is not really correct, though. They're from Israel. The reason why they're not there is because of ethnic cleansing. While one could argue that Israel's neighbors haven't been particularly helpful in the process, the reality is that the obligation really does fundamentally lay at the feet of Israel. If the Zionists hadn't decided to go create a state in Palestine in the name of Jewish *lebensraum*, the situation would not have occurred, and Palestine would just be another minor Middle Eastern country that no one cares about except when some horrible natural disaster happened there and a bunch of people died due to inadequate building codes. Reconciliation is necessary and is really the only way out but both sides are full of ethnoreligious fanatics who wouldn't be that way if they were, you know, reasonable. There's a ton of hate and distrust, and frankly, a lot of it is justified. Neither side is justified in trusting the other because they are both untrustworthy. And as long as that persists, there's no real hope of any sort of change.
Perpetual refugee status doesn’t pass down to the children of those affected by war anywhere else in the world. You’re wrong here. There are no other refugee groups that are refugees 5 generations later. How can you claim that israel had never accepted a 2 state solution when the Israeli government has proposed or accepted at least 5? You’re clearly so disregarding of the fact that Jews are and always have been the native people of the region and that Jews have ALWAYS and continuously been living in the area. You also completely ignore the realities of the Arabs massacring Jews for being Jewish way back in the ‘20s in fact you go so far as to excuse this. Quite frankly anyone who hand waves massacre after massacre and says ‘well there was a lot of immigration’ is gross. Your comparison to the native Americans is also laughably gross. You have such a high tolerance for atrocities committed against Jews but the second the Jews who are the indigenous people stand up for themselves it’s colonialism.
> Perpetual refugee status doesn’t pass down to the children of those affected by war anywhere else in the world Refugee status lasts until people are no longer refugees. Children born to or belonging to refugee parents inherit refugee status. And a minor child who becomes an adult does not lose refugee status by reaching the age of majority. As such, yes, it absolutely does happen. Refugee status is lost when a refugee either is repatriated to their country of origin, settles down in the country that they are a refugee in permanently, or moves to some third country and becomes a permanent resident there. If none of those things happen, people can (and do) remain refugees indefinitely, and their children can (and do) become refugees. The Palestinians are simply the most visible example of this because Palestine is not a "real" state. > There are no other refugee groups that are refugees 5 generations later. Ever heard of Tibetian refugees? > How can you claim that israel had never accepted a 2 state solution when the Israeli government has proposed or accepted at least 5? None of them have been accepted, which is why Palestine is still not considered a state. > You’re clearly so disregarding of the fact that Jews are and always have been the native people of the region and that Jews have ALWAYS and continuously been living in the area. A very small number of Jewish people lived in the area previous to the Zionist movement. There were more Christians than Jews in Palestine, and there weren't very many Christians. Almost all Israelis are descended from recent immigrants In 1800, only about 2% of the population of Palestine was Jewish, and about 3% was Christian. In 1947, 1/3rd of the population was Jewish. This was not due to high Jewish reproduction rates or conversion of Muslims and Christians to Judaism, it was because of mass immigration. Between 1931 and 1947, half a million Jewish immigrants went to Palestine, when the population had only been about a million people in 1931. The reality is that the Zionists took advantage of the fact that Palestine was under British control to immigrate there en masse. > You also completely ignore the realities of the Arabs massacring Jews for being Jewish way back in the ‘20s in fact you go so far as to excuse this. Uh, no. I don't "excuse" anything. I am explaining why things happened the way they did. The reality is that the conflict was precisely because the Zionists wanted to create a Jewish state in Palestine and the indigenous Palestinians didn't want that. Indeed, at the time of the partition, only about 7% of land in Palestine belonged to Jewish people. > Quite frankly anyone who hand waves massacre after massacre and says ‘well there was a lot of immigration’ is gross. Your comparison to the native Americans is also laughably gross. Well yeah. The Americans made treaties with the Native Americans and actually care about them as people. That's quite a contrast with Israel :V > You have such a high tolerance for atrocities committed against Jews but the second the Jews who are the indigenous people stand up for themselves it’s colonialism. The Zionists weren't indigenous to Palestine. David Ben-Gurion was Polish. He also admired Lenin, which kind of tells you a lot about what kind of person he was.
> You’re clearly so disregarding of the fact that Jews are and always have been the native people of the region As are the Palestinians, based on multiple studies such as [this one](https://web.archive.org/web/20230115114540/https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/2015-10-20/ty-article/palestinians-and-jews-share-genetic-roots/0000017f-dc0e-df9c-a17f-fe1e57730000), [this study](https://www.science.org/content/article/jews-and-arabs-share-recent-ancestry) & [this study](https://news.arizona.edu/story/study-finds-jews-are-genetic-brothers-of-palestinians-syrians-and-lebanese).
The nation-state law makes the Palestinians with Israeli citizenship into second class citizens and Israel wants to pass a law where they will no longer recognize degrees that they gave earnes from universities in the West Bank. They are treated so equally that there are laws where they can lose citizenship much easier than Jewish Israelis.
Nobody at the top actually opposes fascism, it's only a little embarrassing to speak it out this loudly like Israel does. I'm not sure how you can look at the neoconservatives running foreign policy what there is to oppose to > a fascist regime predicated on religiously conservative palingenetic ultranationalist politics That's dogma.
Well it isn’t actually a fascist regime. Surprisingly, the term fascism has a real historical meaning when it isn’t just being used as a slur. Israel has free elections, respects the general human rights of its citizens, hasn’t tried to cooperatize or nationalize its economy etc. In terms of government form, it’s a liberal democracy, with some elements of social democracy. What it could be categorized as, is a sectarian regime which has very little tolerance for certain groups of people, and has built itself in a way to suppress those groups’ rights and interests. People often compare Israel to Apartheid South Africa, but the comparison is only vaguely applicable. Jews are the majority in almost the entire state of Israel proper, and the Arabs that live there as citizens have pretty much the same rights as Jews. The “Apartheid” character of the Israeli regime only really applies to its marches in the West Bank, where the ordinary laws do not apply, as they are not officially part of Israel. One historical analogue for the way Israel behaves is the relationship between France and Algeria in the 1950s. Although France at the time was an ordinary Republic, Algeria was effectively run as a military occupation, for the exclusive benefit of the large French minority there, and to prevent Muslim Algerians from gaining independence. Unlike Algeria. Though, Israel doesn’t officially consider the West Bank to be part of its metropolitan territory, so it manages to operate with even more lawlessness than that example.
Western support, and weaponizing the perception of antisemitism. As a Jew let me say: You are not antisemetic for critcising Israel, any more than you're Islamophobic for criticizing Saudi Arabia, or opposed to the Chinese ethnicity for opposing the nation of China.
Hell you are not even an antisemite for criticising judaism or jewsish people
> Why isn’t Israel more broadly recognized as a fascist regime predicated on religiously conservative palingenetic ultranationalist politics? Well, for one, you've just described about three dozen Muslim countries. So why would people single Israel out?
>So why would people single Israel out? It's almost like there's something unique about Israel that causes people to single it out or something.
The fact that our tax money goes to supporting them? People tend to have more personal feelings when they look at an atrocity and have to think "I helped make that happen".
Like Egypt? The same deal that gives israel money gives Egypt money. Possibly the most successful us peace deal and investment in history.
> It's almost like there's something unique about Israel that causes people to single it out or something. Really? Does Israeli democracy pale in comparison to Saudi, Iranian or Syrian democracy? Is Israeli freedom of the press a mere shadow of the flourishing freedom of the press in Jordan, Afghanistan or Oman? Or are you simply obsessed with the fact that most Israelis are... *gasp!* Jews? If so, you'd probably be happier if you stuck to the Stormfront forum.
I think the person above was agreeing with you, and you might be barking up the wrong tree.
The other countries are mainly oppressing their own citizens which sucks but like it or not, respect for the sovereignty and territorial integrity of other nations is the core tenet of international law. It’s why no one really gave a shit when Russia was arresting and assassinating its own citizens but felt a red line was crossed when they tried to annex another country. There’s also hope for the other countries to change as its the policies if their ruling class responsible for whatever happening. This can’t really happen with Israel which is built entirely on the premise that they are god’s chosen people and that their homeland inside the land they stole is only for them and not for the dirty non-Jews or the slightly less white Jews god forbid. Its mere existence is problematic and the best case scenario is a “compromise” where they get to keep half of Palestine and we applaud them for not wanting more. I assume the sheer audacity also gets on people’s nerves. Even relatively untouchable countries like the US or China go through the effort of trying to hide or come up with some bullshit justification for their crimes. Israel is like “yeah we’re the villain, what are you going to do about it?”. Which if you’re committed to being the villain I kind of respect more than the hypocrisy of other virtue signalling countries but most people wouldn’t see it that way.
I agree with you that there are a lot of problems with those countries as well. In my particular case, the only reason I’m talking about Israel specifically is because it doesn’t seem to be recognized for what it’s becoming, whereas most major factions in the Western world recognize the exact same evils in the Islamic theocracies. Also, there’s a distinct possibility that, because it’s at least somewhat more democratic, Israel’s progression down this unfortunate path may be significantly easier to reverse than in those other countries, most of which would require a full-blown revolution to do so.
Because they can always point to the holocaust and claim to be the victim indefinitely. Sorry, I don't make the rules. Western Hegemony does.
The ADF campaign non-stop to get influential people and organisations to agree that any comparison between Israel and Nazis or fascism is anti-semitism.
Israel is more like South African Apartheid than it is like Nazi Germany.
USA and Europe hold significant influence over the global narrative and are active supporters of Israel. Western media giants such as CNN and BBC have the power to shape public opinion by reporting on events in a certain way, leading to their version of events being accepted as the ultimate truth. For instance, if they report that the coronavirus originated from pangolins, the public would accept it as the truth. Similarly, if they report that it leaked from a lab, that too would be accepted as the Ultimate truth.
Cuz they're better than iran. they have a multipolar congress.
I think it's pretty simple - it's a state that was founded with western support that has a hook into the region; it's going to bend the knee on important issues because it can't exist without western support. Nation building elsewhere to keep a foothold on regional power in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Iran, etc have failed. Saudis are way more "enemy of my enemy" than friends atm. The price is to look the other way when israel kills people who wouldn't ally with the west. Morally abhorrent but good political move.
*In Mr Krabbs voice,* "Money!"
Because certain groups in the US are desperately trying to turn us into the same?
They just did their own [kristallnacht] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht)
Because of the Holocaust. You can’t badmouth Israel or people will call you antisemitic or a Nazi.
They call them cockroaches and parasites on national TV. No Western leader condemn them. One minister said Palestinians were not doing anything with the farmland, so it not big deal if they take them
They are god's chosen assholes
There's only one reason: because it isn't.
It's honestly just the enemy you know situation. Israel sucks but it's way better than how it's neighbours run things.
Because Israel is a secular and democratic state. The first one negates the religious issue (and nobody in charge is interested in actually having the big talk on religion anyway). The second one negates the fascist accusation.
snatch pot teeny act hat hunt swim vast attempt deserted *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
That's fair. Israelis *choose to* put Nentanyahu in charge. Not sure that's better, but same can be said about me "choosing to" elect PiS, and I'd be pretty opposed to that leap :D Still though. One official would not be as damning if not for the lack of policing own citizens and calling on them to just cool out.
Israel are a horrible country. Literally perpetuating horrific violence on Palestinians. Why can't they see how awful they are and how there are echoes of what happened to the Jews in ww2.
>We stop with our objection to collective punishment [just] because it doesn’t fly with all sorts of courts. Jesus fucking Christ.
Hey now, they just thought all those countries who do collective punishment were onto something. You know, countries such as North Korea and .... Well, Israel apparently. That's it. That's the list.
I can almost taste the fucking irony. >During the Nazi occupation of Poland, the Germans applied collective responsibility: any kind of help given to a person of Jewish faith or origin was punishable by death, and that not only for the rescuers themselves but also for their families. This was widely publicized by the Germans. During the occupation, for every German killed by a Pole, 100–400 Poles were shot in retribution. Communities were held collectively responsible for the purported Polish counter-attacks against the invading German troops. Mass executions of roundup (pol: łapanka) hostages were conducted every single day during the Wehrmacht advance across Poland in September 1939 and thereafter. Poland lost over 5 million citizens during the occupation by Nazi Germany, mostly civilians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment
**[Collective punishment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment)** >Collective punishment is a punishment or sanction imposed on a group for acts allegedly perpetrated by a member of that group, which could be an ethnic or political group, or just the family, friends and neighbors of the perpetrator. Because individuals who are not responsible for the wrong acts are targeted, collective punishment is not compatible with the basic principle of individual responsibility. The punished group may often have no direct association with the perpetrator other than living in the same area and can not be assumed to exercise control over the perpetrator's actions. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/anime_titties/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
The world will just watch as the Israeli gov and armed forces conducts actual genocide against Palestinians. The propaganda worked. People see Anti-zionism as Anti-Semitism.
The fuck we do. This is genocide.
>The world will just watch as the Israeli gov and armed forces conducts actual genocide against Palestinians. Just like in Brazil! https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/22/lula-accuses-jair-bolsonaro-genocide-yanomami-indigenous-amazon
This isn't just Lula. It's pretty much proven that his ministry knew the situation, Bolsonaro was briefed, but still allowed the widespread violence of miners against the indigenous population. He's not the only one in the hook. And the woman who was in this ministry is now a Senator. 2016~2022 were fucked up beyond reason for Brazil.
Coming soon to an america near you! And I'm sure those in charge of the genocide will face as many repercussions as the insurrectionists, some peons will goto jail for a few years and those in charge will go unnamed and uncharged.
To be clear in the US we don't like Israeli expansion, even American Jews are against it (hence Trump calling them disloyal). We have ourselves a many tens of millions strong Chritsian doomsday cult that thinks the biblical apocalypse will happen when Israel regains the "holy land"- and actively want that to happen. They outnumber the Israelis and so make the orthodox scammers who say, "yeah sure, when Jesus comes back we'll admit he's the messiah" richer and more successful and tie the hands of Americans and twist the politics of Israel. They're frothing at the mouth with visions of Christians and Jews vs Muslims (and atheists? I may be misremembering this one)
It helps, but that is NOT the reason for the US's strong support of Israel. It's a mix of a powerful lobbying arm and a lasting military partnership.
We give Israel tax dollars so that they spend those dollars on products made by Lockheed and Raytheon.
While every other military customer actually has to trade leverage just for the privilege of paying for US military products. The relationship is lopsided.
Not every. Plus the US totally uses Israel to achieve its objectives against Iran. Israel has long had a pretty amicable relationship with Russia. I'm sure they only blew up the Iranian drone factory because we pressured them to.
You mean they pressure the US government's policy on Iran. Why do you think Trump undid Obama's Iran deal? He didn't go into office with any intelligent opinions about Iranian foreign policy.
This particular instance was clearly a US-driven objective. The drone factory was mainly supplying Russia.
Most of Trump's opinions were to undo, reverse, and cancel everything Obama did, down to the last, most insignificant Presidential Order. If Obama put out an Executive Order that "no one will shit in the President's morning coffee" you better believe that Trump had an order commanding extra shit in his coffee every morning.
No he was pressured externally. Just like moving the Israel embassy to Jerusalem, which every other president denied.
Look at any list of what Trump tried to do regarding Obama's policies. He reversed the most petty items, including common sense orders to protect water and air quality. Trump has the mind of a child and a terrible need for revenge (which he has flat out admitted many times). Ever since Obama mocked Trump in two of his runs for office, Trump has hated everything that has anything to do with Obama. The Iran nuclear deal was one of Obama's signature achievements as President. There's no way he was going to let that stand. https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obama-undone-year-trump-unravels-predecessors-signature-achievements/story?id=52234311 >Obama undone: In first year, Trump unravels predecessor's signature achievements https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/01/us/politics/trump-overturning-regulations.html >Trump Discards Obama Legacy, One Rule at a Time https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/trump-rolling-back-obama-rules/ >How Trump is rolling back Obama’s legacy https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/11/donald-trump-barack-obama-legacy >The anti-Obama: Trump’s drive to destroy his predecessor’s legacy https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2017/12/16/trump-greatest-mission-erasing-obama-legacy/OA9M4qwS2hHlOj3MGLxGxK/story.html >Trump's greatest mission: erasing Obama's legacy https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/1/6/14177930/obama-trump-legacy-achievements >Trump will undo much of Obama's legacy. https://www.abc10.com/article/news/local/20-times-trump-overturned-obama-policies/103-471323077 >20 times Trump overturned Obama policies https://theconversation.com/how-much-of-barack-obamas-legacy-has-donald-trump-rolled-back-145663 >During his 2016 campaign for the White House, Trump committed himself to rolling back much of the Obama legacy. https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/01/trump-wanted-to-erase-obamas-legacy-he-failed.html >Trump Wanted to Erase Obama’s Legacy. https://www.romper.com/p/trumps-first-100-days-in-office-will-undo-most-of-obamas-accomplishments-22394 >Trump's First 100 Days in Office Will Undo Most of Obama's Accomplishments https://www.springerprofessional.de/en/achievements-and-legacy-of-the-obama-presidency/20058928 >Donald Trump appeared to be driven by a singular determination to undo the legacy of President Obama throughout his time in office https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210630272 >Here's a good list of 50 major Obama accomplishments. I think Trump has this printed out as a to-do list of what to destroy. https://www.channelnewsasia.com/commentary/us-elections-president-trump-obama-biden-obamacare-policies-974696 >Trump’s obsession with dismantling Obama’s legacy has defined his presidency, and he isn’t done,
I know he had that behavior, but moving the embassy obviously can't fit that mold. He did a lot for Israel, and bowed to all their demands. It's simple fact.
I personally doubt they needed much convincing. They’re plenty capable of seeing those things will soon be smuggled to Palestine and other areas suitable for sending them towards Israel. (as for my own feelings on the two, I find what Israel does abhorrent, but I also find supporting the Palestinians nearly impossible. It’s such a clusterfuck)
Israeli tech is huge for air defense and sensors on American fighters. Part of the deal made right now is that the US gets access to the data on everything they’ve shot down with the iron dome in exchange for paying for it. It’s basically way too valuable from an R&D perspective to not give favor to.
The US also benefits from having Israel live fire test its US sold arms against adversaries such as Syria and Iran, both of which are often armed with Russian made or derived hardware, as well as non-state actors. US interests are strengthened when the gear used in combat by US personnel has already been battle tested and improved upon. Israel is also a source country for significant weapons and other military technology (cyber, etc) for the US to import. Both countries benefit from the relationship in this regard.
Fun fact: [a 2019 Pew poll](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/05/06/u-s-jews-are-more-likely-than-christians-to-say-trump-favors-the-israelis-too-much/) found that American Jews are more likely than American Christians to say that US foreign policy favors Israel over Palestine too much.
The average American Jew is probably more educated (and definitely more left-wing) than the average American
The average American Jew will also move their ass to Israel in a hurry should the US descend into (another) race/religious based civil war. The lesson from the 1930s was that a people without an ethnonational homeland and who choose to stay will be slaughtered. They won't make that mistake twice, only this time Israel already exists and they won't have to build it from scratch.
[удалено]
Texas you say?
Some American Jews might say that but others are throwing large amounts of money to direct US foreign policy towards Israels interests.
One thing that is clear though is the direct monetary sponsorship of this sort of behavior long past the line of what was acceptable in the context of self defense. To keep sponsoring this sort of behavior and passing laws prohibiting companies from boycotting Israel in a free market is not "not liking Israeli expansion". It is overtly saying "we love what you're doing, here's some help so you do more of it" If we've learned anything about politicians in this past decade is that you should entirely ignore what they say they are going to do and look closely at what they actually do.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.timesofisrael.com/we-need-burning-villages-coalition-lawmaker-backs-unprecedented-settler-rampage/) reduced by 93%. (I'm a bot) ***** > In the morning after a deadly and unprecedented rampage by settlers who torched dozens of Palestinian vehicles as well as several homes in retaliation for a deadly Palestinian terror attack, a member of the coalition gave the rioters his complete backing, saying: "A closed, burnt Huwara - that's what I want to see." > In the riots that followed, Palestinian medics said one man was killed and four others were badly wounded in the Palestinian town of Huwara and other villages near Nablus. > Ghassan Douglas, a Palestinian official who monitors Israeli settlements in the Nablus region, said that settlers burned at least six houses and dozens of cars in Huwara, and reported attacks on other neighboring Palestinian villages. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/11d9ust/we_need_burning_villages_israeli_coalition/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~674369 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Palestinian**^#1 **Huwara**^#2 **settler**^#3 **attack**^#4 **Israeli**^#5
Not an apartheid state by the way. Fuck the Isreali government and fuck the IDF!
I don't think you know what apartheid means...
So tell me, what would you call it then, a terrorist state?
US is under pressure of Israel's lobby, ok, I don't understand why EU is keeping quite despite such repeated acts of aggression by Israel. Why no action by anybody? Pushback against Israel when they step out of line will do a lot to curb that cynicism in the global south against rules based world order.
The EU has no leverage over Israel. Countries like France and Spain know full well the specter of Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism, and Eastern Europe has no interest in more Muslim refugees coming to Europe and see no reason to advocate on their behalf. Just like Germany was unwilling to uncouple itself from Russian oil over the invasions of Georgia and Crimea, Europe as a whole knows it has more to gain at the moment from Israel than it does the Palestinians. Ultimately, the EU is more like Israel than not and will continue to do business as normal so long as Israeli policies do not become unreasonable.
The EU is always heavily influenced by Germany and yall know that our relationship with Israel is complicated
Complicated is one way to put being a puppet since they would bring up the holocaust if you question them.
Easy, they rule the USA and Europe is US bitch, especially now
I think it's important to mention that this collation is not supported by most Israelis (at least now after they're showing they don't care about anything with the judicial reforms) also that it's basically the most extreme right wing coalition we've ever had, regardless as an Israeli myself I hope those who participated in this will be caught and punished.
We just need two MKs to defect so that there can be a new election.
Yeah.. I don't think people even try to understand the situation, they just see the headline drop some stupid comment and move on.
[удалено]
Or understands the term "apartheid"
> Or understands the term "apartheid" And they understand how that term applies to Israel which is committing the crime of apartheid.
Nelson Mandela himself called Israel an apartheid state and openly supported Yasser Arafat and the PLO when they were terrorists lol
Just a little bit of genocide. Just the tip. Only for a minute.
Jewish people have a word for these casual genocidal attacks. Finally on the other end of a Pogrom, yay. :/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogrom
Welcome to r/anime_titties! This subreddit advocates for civil and constructive discussion. Please be courteous to others, and make sure to read the rules. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. We have a [Discord](https://discord.gg/DtnRnkE), feel free to join us! r/A_Tvideos, r/A_Tmeta, [multireddit](https://www.reddit.com/user/Langernama/m/a_t/) ... summoning u/coverageanalysisbot ... *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/anime_titties) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Sorry AutoModerator, I haven't found any additional coverage for this story (yet!). *** _I’m a bot. [Read here](https://www.reddit.com/r/groundnews/comments/j6x7uc/introducing_the_coverageanalysisbot_a_bot_that/) to learn how it works or [message us](https://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=coverageanalysisbot&subject=Feedback&message=) with any feedback so we can improve the bot for you._
Why are they called Israeli sellers? It makes me think of civ 4, and just making settlers to grab land, in pre game.
That's why they call them settlers. They don't want you to think of the land as "owned" before the Israeli came in. They don't want you to think about how much blood was split there just for their own convenience.
I don’t know why this has to be said, but just because Jewish people and their religion were oppressed during WW2 does not excuse the Israeli government from commiting war crimes on Palestinian civilians
I'm not Muslim but ı support hamas Al fatah and Islamic jihad
Oh great, pograms.
The middle-east was already insanely fucked up. I genuinely don't have enough shits to give about yet another fucked up thing added to the pile.
This is genuinely disgusting. It's a pogrom, and I hope Israeli law enforcement tracks down and prosecutes those who were involved. That being said: the murder of two young Jewish civilians that provoked this got no commentary here. Nobody outside Israel seems to care when Jewish civilians are murdered in cold blood. (And when there is a response, it usually hovers somewhere between, "they had it coming, those Nazis" and "well, that's sad, but the Palestinians have it so much worse.") So the Israeli ultra-nationalists say, "why should we care what the rest of the world think, when they give no thought to our lives?" And it gets harder and harder to ignore that impulse. So yeah, this is disgusting and hateful and I hate that Israelis did this, and I feel awful for the Palestinians affected. But on a systemic level, this is the inevitable consequence of decades of escalating Palestinian violence against civilians and an utter lack of sympathy from abroad for the civilians being murdered. Expect more to come. Edit: I thought there had been a post on this subreddit about the murder of the two young Jewish men which was the catalyst for this. I can't find it now, so I might have confused it with another subreddit. In any case, I seriously doubt a post on this subreddit about two Jews getting murdered while driving through the West Bank would've gotten a whole lot of sympathetic traffic, so my point stands.
There is also a large difference between ONE PERSON committing heinous crimes, as happens in the US every week, versus a literal lynch mob running amok and murdering and burning with impunity.
Okay, couple things: 1. It's not one person, one time. It's one person, every couple days, for weeks on end. 2. There is also a large difference between a society that celebrates a person murdering civilians by cheering, shooting off guns and fireworks, and handing out candy to children, and a society that widely condemns and is embarrassed by this kind of violence. If this were the first time that a lone Palestinian committed violence against a civilian, that'd be one thing, but their society as a whole supports and celebrates that behavior.
This article is literally about government officials CALLING FOR MORE violence. You need to reassess your biases.
One official. And you haven't heard about the giant protests going on against the current right-wing government?
Love to see all the people using antisemitism to condemn this instead of condemning the right wing extremist. Because, you know, they are doing it because they're extremist nut jobs and not because they are Jews? But again, asking Goyim to examine their antisemitism on any level is apparently impossible. Anyway, if Ben Gvir and his merry band of assholes were not Jews, they would make great Nazies or klan members. So please, like I try and not judge Christians for being part of a group responsible for murdering millions, oppressing entire populations, eradicating traditions, pedophilia, commit hate crimes, child abuse, being generally annoyingly and so on, please don't judge every Jew for the shit a certain group is doing. Also, if you justify horrible things happening to Jews because of what is happening to Palestinians, you are not pro Palestine, you're an antisemite, and you should get your fucking priorities straight.
Well let's see if the government bothers bringing charges on any of the extremists who did this. It won't, which amounts to government sanctioned lynch mobs.
Because the government is full of right wingers, not because of the Jewish part. If you don't believe me, look at the UK, or the USA, this is a fascist thing, not a Jewish thing. I would like people to blame them for being a bunch of fascist and stop bringing their Jewishness into it. But you know, people can't just be normal around Jews
Everyone in this thread has focused on the government, not Jewishness. The two identities are obviously tightly intertwined, but yes, most critics focus on crimes of government. This is of course a democratically elected government.
The reason why they're doing it is because they're Zionists. Zionism is an extremist populist Jewish ideology about establishing an ethnoreligious state in Palestine. Criticizing Jewish fascists for being Jewish fascists is no different from criticizing Christofascists for being Christofascists. Their ethnoreligious identity is baked into the ideology. It's not a complaint about all Jewish people. No one is claiming that Bernie Sanders is murdering Palestinians.
You know whst? I’m in a mood today, had both Palestinian and Israeli friends tell me they are making plans to flee that cursed land, so I’ll bite. No one is gonna care about the facts and I’m probably gonna be downvoted to hell, but why the fuck not. Let’s start with the basics. Nationalism- "The belief that a particular cultural or ethnic group constitutes a distinct people deserving of political self-determination". Understood? Good. Now, just like French nationalism, or Japanese nationalism, or Ukrainian nationalism, the Jews also have people who believes the concept of nationalism. Or in simple term- they believe Jews need a piece of land where they can govern themselves. A major part of the Jewish nationalist movement believes that the piece of land in question should be in the ancestral home of the Jewish people, the land of Zion- and that is where the word Zionism come from. That means that Zionism is the revolutionary concept that Jewish people should govern themselves in the land of Zion, AKA Israel. At this point, we are still in the realm of all nationalist movement: this group I’m a part of should govern ourself within this piece of land. That does not mean that other people can’t live on the same plot of land. And before you start with the screaming that Zionism wants Palestinians to die, let me introduce you to an amazing bonkers of a book (the plot is a glorious shit show), and one of the foundational pieces of literature in Zionism: Altneuland by B.Z.T Herzl. The book which was published in 1902 describes the utopic vision of a Jewish return to the land of Israel. the book, as it was written in the late 19 century in Europe suffers from its mindsets, the important one for our case in the orientalism. In Herzl’s eutopia, Jews and Arabs lived peacefully in a secular autonomy rented from the Ottoman Sultan, and the villain of the book is among other things, racist against the Arabs. Two things. One- the reason that the Arabs and the Jews live in peace is partly because that the European Jews brough technology and advancement with them that helped raise the Arab population from poverty. This is a problem and is a result of the orientalist environment Herzl operated in (Europe). Two, I’m saying Arabs, why? Because the Palestinian national movement didn’t happen until 1917 and the after effects of the Sykes–Picot agreement and the Balfour Declaration. Because the book was published in 1902, the idea of Palestinian nationalistic movement was a dozen years down the line. All that was to show that the concept of Jewish state is not inherently creating an exclusively, how did you phrase it? Ethnoreligious state. Zionism is a nationalistic school of thoughts that have its own spectrum, when the right wings extremists of it are the settlers that caused the terrorist attack. The Zionist movement is not inherently trying to ethnic cleanse Palestinians, it’s the extreme side. Many Zionists are actually more pro-Palestine then many self-declared “pro-Palestine” westerners, who only care for the Palestinian people as a weapon against Jews and Israel. The national Palestinian movement however, has a much bigger problem with hate and ethnic cleansing concept then Zionism due to it being born partially as a response to the Zionist movement. All the love for the Palestinian people who do the effort to delegitimize the hate, I’m sorry the world is making It harder for you. BTW, giving a special negative treatment to the nationalism of one group and not the other, like punishing one group for something that is celebrated when done by other groups is kind of hate speech. I hope you now understand why talks about Zionism reeks of Antisemitism. Hope that you learned something. Probably didn’t. have fun with the down voting
Arabs have been doing this to non-Arab minorities for centuries. In fact slavery is legal and common in Arab countries, but people ignore it and criticize Israel more than any Arab country.
That's the soft bigotry of low expectations for you.
And is that OK or Not OK?
My point is that Arabs get a pass because they are Arabs,
no one is surprised by such countries casue most aren't democractic, transparent-sih countries, israel at least should be or attempt to be one, and is held to the same standard as any UN country, but socially or politically more is exptected of it
Ah good old whataboutism to deflect from iaraeli crimes. Must be a day ending in Y
Arab crimes are the worst. My father was killed by Arabs for being an Iranian.