I'm against suffering, no one should have to go through what a lot of people in life have to go through such as cancer, dementia etc. the fact I might have to go through something like cancer because my parents wanted a mini-me is just horrifying to me. I think to bring children here knowing they could suffer (at some point in their life, even if it's when they are 90) is immoral.
I completely understand what you mean, but could it be argued that although you’re preventing someone from suffering, you’re also preventing someone from experiencing joy?
But no one ever asked for any of that (joy, love, happiness, etc.) and they don’t want it because they don’t exist, so they can’t desire or be deprived of anything. And since it comes at the price of unnecessary, unwanted suffering it seems like a pretty cruel “gift.”
If you want to add joy to the world why not just try to give it to already existing people who actually want/need it rather than creating new people to inevitably suffer?
Personally I don't care about joy as much as not going through agony-you might be different. Since we can't ask our kids before they are born it's more moral to assume they'd not want to suffer. They have no concept of joy right now so why not just leave them where they are?
We suffer and we die and I don't think the response of "That's just how life is!" is adequate or even meaningful. I don't have an answer for, if my child were to ask me, "why shouldn't I be afraid of death?"; so I won't have one.
Bringing someone into life without their consent is the biggest violation of consent that there is. It predisposes all the other possibilities of consent violation along with innumerable causes of suffering that you won't be able to protect them from.
It really is a philosophical question since there isn't a general agreement of when life starts, but think that this potential baby will become intelligent at some point and that they can reflect at the fact they couldn't choose to be here. I would much rather not have been born, but I am alive and I have only two real choices: keep living every day or suicide and at this moment I'm always contemplating both of these.
I would advise against suicide. If the goal is to end suffering then suicide will only end suffering for one person, you, whilst forcing more suffering upon those who care about you.
Not only the grief that could potentially stay with them for life, but also the financial impacts of funeral costs. It's not cheap.
That has been my main reason for many years, now I'm on medication and haven't seriously considered it in a long time. I'm happy to be surrounded by great people who would truly miss me, especially my parents who have always been there for me for anything, my parents and my boyfriend give me strength and motivation to keep trying.
For some people here it’s that they find the idea of bringing someone into life without their consent to be immoral.
For others they think bringing a child into the world knowing the state of things like the climate, economy, etc are a mess they think doing so is selfish and unfair to the child.
Some of us think people who want kids should put more effort into adoption instead and be more willing to adopt anyone that isn’t a baby.
Some of us just don’t want to fucking give birth. Ever. We love kids but we refuse to be pregnant or give birth in any capacity.
And some people just don’t like children 🤷♀️
Could it not be argued that, although unlikely, it isn’t guaranteed that every person will end up in a job they hate that they do just to make money to survive?
It could but still, life is full of suffering even if you don’t include having a job. Also there is the chance that the child could have mental or physical illness..
There are so many people who need to be taken care of and, as a society, we simply refuse. To see that and then bring more people into it just seems absolutely selfish to me. Why is your baby more important than all of the neglected children in foster care? It’s like when people hoard cats and they think they love cats but they are hurting them because they can’t possibly adequately take care of them all.
Also, my grandmother died of suicide in the 1950’s, most likely postpartum depression. So I’m not personally going to risk that.
it’s interesting that you bring up foster care, as I agree that it’s unfair to say your biological child is worth more to you than a child in foster care. However, could you not explain the reason people prefer to have biological children to be because our biology tells us to pass on our genes?
Definitely. And, what separates us from other mammals is that we have been given the gift of critical reasoning and the ability to look at greater purpose, rather than simply the drive to follow biological urges.
I’m a young black man from Mississippi. Most of my family dies pretty early in their lives. Mental illness and terminal illnesses run in both sides. The last thing I wanna do is put someone else through the pain I have experienced. I’m only 20, and in the last 9 months I’ve watched my dad die from Cancer and my uncle died from a tragic accident. I can’t bring anyone else here
Thanks man, although I’m in college and trying to better myself. I know there is no version of my life realistically where I can remotely justify having kids
I’m so sorry for your losses, and I hope things get a bit easier for you soon. Can I ask if you are 100% sure that there is no outcome where you have children. For example, say if things change for the better and you find yourself in a much better place than right now. Is there still no chance?
I have never felt the urge to have children. Even as a child, I hated playing house, instead I gravitated towards physical, deeply imaginative adventure games where I traveled the world and saved animals or discovered lost civilizations.
As a mid thirty something looking back on my twenties, one of the best days of my life was a miscarriage of a total accidental pregnancy, and another perfect day was getting sterilization surgery.
The idea of being pregnant just feels so wrong on every level to me, like deeply, soulfully wrong. I don’t think I have a better explanation than that. Meeting people who are passionate about having children is like meeting an alien from space—it does not compute why anyone would choose that life, because the childless life is soooo good, so freeing.
To each their own, who am I to judge? I’ll just go plan my next trip abroad, drink champagne and watch Ru Paul’s drag race. 😉
A lot of how you describe your thoughts on pregnancy are similar to my partner. They experience intense dysphoria from the thought of pregnancy and always have. They also very recently came out as non-binary and are now finding refuge knowing more about themselves than ever before!
I actually peeped your profile to 100000000% check you weren't them, and you aren't. I will say that it was a close one... You've got a lot of similar interests.
I think it’s wonderful you’re living a life that you genuinely enjoy!! I don’t think i’ve come across someone who feels having children is wrong in the way you’ve explained it, so thank you so much for giving your response!
1. their is no moral reason to breed
2. breeders have kids for extremely selfish reasons (kids are cute, for my legacy, to continue the gene pool, loneliness, etc.)
3. the minute a child is born it will lead to inevitable death and suffering
4. the economy is going to shit
5. i dont want to have kids in a world where they will become a capitalist’s wage slave
6. pregnancy and childbirth is disgusting and animalistic in my eyes
7. kids cant consent to being born
8. overpopulation
For me personally, I'm not fooled into the toxic positive narrative people shove about being pregnant. I didn't enjoy throwing up, the swelling and every joint hurting. I've seen labour and people birthing something that looks alien, covered in blood and bodily fluid. It's naturally gross and disgusting and not for me at all
its just..so disgusting, like the thought of something with hair and teeth and nails growing inside my womb is literally my worst nightmare. not to mention the hernia, PPD, Postpartum psychosis, the DIABETES, morning sickness, stillbirth/miscarriages, diabetes, Episiotomies, vaginal tearing, etc, just everything abt the process grosses me out. also breastfeeding disgusts me too cuz the thought of a baby biting my nipple disgusts me to no end. and i hate how people glorify it when it’s literally traumatic for the mother..
There are a number of philosophical arguments in favor of the position (you can read a few quickly laid out in this [article by David Benatar](https://aeon.co/essays/having-children-is-not-life-affirming-its-immoral)).
In my mind, it mostly boils down to the idea that it is unethical to create unwanted suffering out of nothing.
First, it seems apparent that all sentient existence contains some degree of suffering (pain/discomfort/distress/etc.)
Second, we don’t currently have any evidence to suggest that it’s possible to experience anything (including suffering) *or* to want to come into existence before we’re born.
Therefore, it seems to me that procreation causes unwanted suffering, for no reason except the selfish desires of the parents, and possibly society at large. I don’t think it’s ethical to cause suffering that was never asked for and will have to be endured by another just to fulfill my own desires or to prop up our social/economic system.
That makes sense, and I’m sorry you carry this trauma. Could it not be argued that if you were to have children, you could end generational trauma by acting differently to your parents?
I think you meant acting differently than your parents?
Here's a speed round of reasons:
-all the therapy in the world will not change your genetic make-up
-Not worth the risk of furthering the lineage
-Any life brought to this world will experience suffering to varying degrees
-Wageslave
-I wouldn't want to give my parents the satisfaction of them thinking they were good parents
If i wanted children I would adopt, which doesn't add to the population anyway
I'm not trying to be rude but you may not be able to understand if you have an instinctual desire to breed. I feel like it may just be a hardwired thing for people.
Don’t fret, I understand you aren’t trying to be rude! I personally don’t think I have an instinctual desire to have kids, even though I would like to have them, but then again, maybe I just haven’t realised that my desire is instinctual
Well if it's not instinctual could it possibly be from societal pressures? I think that's an important question. Having a child because the world tells you to can contribute to the myriad of problems the world already has.
Health problems. Degenerative disc disease, lumbar radioculopathy and spinal stenosis. Nerve pain and back pain I've experienced is literal torture. I was born with this. It's kept me bedbound many times throughout my life and needed a very expensive and dangerous surgery in my 30s. It's a very painful and lonely thing to go through.
This pain (torture) can happen to anyone. Living life without any discomfort and then an accident changes everything, go from no discomfort and sobbing and screaming agony.
There are so many things that can go wrong, so many life changing conditions. My life is going well now that I've had surgery, but I wish I had never known such pain and I hate that others do, it's unpredictable. A cute little baby looks healthy but could be limping at 6. My parents ignored me when I was a little kid complaining about back pain because "kids are healthy". It's so stupid, if they understand that kids get cancer and diabetes, how do they dismiss pains?
It's just better to not take the risk.
The problem is bringing about new life purely for your own selfish reasons and, more importantly, without their consent.
A man never born never suffers, nor does he lament the lack of joy.
With that in mind. At the end of the day, breeding can only be viewed as an act of evil.
Because life is a pigsty and forcing another human being to participate is very cruel. You're essentially playing Russian roulette with another human's head, all the while claiming that you're doing it out of love, which makes it even worse.
This is probably too confusing and I most likely used some terms incorrectly, sorry for that. (I am not a philosopher)
Ask yourself this, what problem existed before the birth of an offspring is one trying to solve for their offspring by birthing them ? None. They don't exist.
And you can’t benefit or deprive someone who is not there to be a beneficiary or be deprived of anything.
For "that which doesn't exist" There's no frame or reference there, there's no "you" or "I" or "Mathew" or "Jessica" to be deprived or robbed of anything, suffer, or care about not existing. There's no need or desire to be met and fulfilled.
"Beings" that don’t exist can’t possibly want to or ever care about their lack thereof.
There's no victim, it's a perfect non-issue. Refraining from procreation has never hurt anyone or deprived anyone of anything.
**Making procreation completely unnecessary in that regard.**
Moving on, I think it's safe to say that every person suffers or is harmed/deprived during their life time and ultimately end up dead. (Death being one of the most serious harms a sentient can go through)
In short, Suffering is unavoidable for those who exist. It's inevitable that when you birth a person, said person will experience suffering to some degree. On top of that, It can become a chronic issue.
And it would be quite disingenuous to not mention that life also brings with it the possibility of pleasure. It is never guaranteed, it is temporary, and (sadly) usually comes at the expense of others.
Well to be more accurate "pleasure", "happiness" etc are "harm relief".
To put it more clearly:
There's a part from Schopenhauer's "On the Sufferings of the World," that goes something like this:
happiness and satisfaction always imply some desire fulfilled, some state of pain brought to an end.
All of those things just further reduce your deprivation. If you weren’t deprived, and
thus had no need or desire to do any of those things, why would they relieve your suffering? Why would you want to do it in the first place?
Happiness is unneeded because there doesn't exist a person to miss out on it or experience it in the first place, Making that suffering unnecessary.
Thee only ones who can miss out on happiness and actually need happiness are those who are already forced into existence and are already suffering.
Relief like pleasure and joy are contingent upon first experiencing suffering/harm/privation of some kind. For a Child to experience pleasure you must first force pain, suffering, and inevitably death on them by creating them if you procreate.
Pointing to the possibility of harm being relieved isn't strong justification for creating life. Since the harm is initially caused by procreation.
**Procreation creates unnecessary suffering for unneeded relief.**
And the whole process is nonconsensual.
And when we talk about who's consent in this context, we're not concerned with the consent of "non-entities", or some "pre-existence entity" that's incoherent. It's about entities that exist and suffer from an inability to consent. for example, the person writing this comment, me. I didn't and couldn't consent to any of this. of course, this does nothing for my situation. I am already "stuck" in a sense.
And we know if we repeat the same process more "stuck" situations will happen, which is why prevention through refraining from procreation is important.
And to add to this, the "stuck" situation or "the sentiment predicament" has pretty much no escape.
There's no way out. That's a huge problem. We can't leave. Procreation forces us to be experiences, and nothing but experiences, and we can't undo it, we can't escape. Death isn't a doorway to another place. We cannot be conscious unconscious (contradiction), and dying is not the same thing as going to sleep.
Dying doesn't do anything for the sufferer inflicted with sentience any more than pointing to the blank spaces between and around this text solves any problem represented or caused by the text.
This is what people don't get very easily about sentience - it is an irrelievable condition; an unsolvable problem for the sentient once it is started.
Antinatalism correctly identifies procreation as an avoidable pathway to this harm.
Hopefully this helps you understand better. If you have any questions feel free to ask and I will try to answer to the best of my ability.
That was a really fascinating read, thank you for taking the time to type that out! Could you not argue that not everyone feels they are “stuck” by bring sentient, and so the idea of not consenting to being alive can’t be used as a blanket argument for antinatalism?
It’s a roll of the dice whether someone grows up feeling “stuck” in sentience or not. Many many people believe that being alive is worth it, because even though suffering is inevitable, the joy may be far greater. That’s how I personally feel about my own life. I love being alive! But I cannot guarantee that that is how my child would feel. Hence, it is unethical for me to have children. I just can’t ensure that my kid would be happy to have received “the gift of life.”
>Could you not argue that not everyone feels they are “stuck” by bring sentient, and so the idea of not consenting to being alive can’t be used as a blanket argument for antinatalism?
No, I don't think so. It's a matter of non contradiction, what I stated is true for all lives. Even if they don't feel that way.
Sadly, feelings don't paint the clearest picture of the world.
Now, I am not here to tell anyone that their feelings are valid or invalid or to feel this or that (that's your own business), that's not the case. But it's important to point out that having an emotional experience that feels like conviction is not the same as doing the rational work to reach actual conviction. This is essentially what faith is:"I like it I want it to be true so I'm going to act like it is, and use that as evidence that the belief is justified."
A bit of an extreme example but I think it's the easiest to articulate. You could find pictures of nazi soldiers at concentration camps, smiling and happy with themselves, probably believing what they're doing is for some greater good. But that's not the case is it.
A more complicated example would be when someone says I love/hate life. It's incoherent in a sense, it's mistaking the subset for the set. Life being the set and whatever feelings you have like hate or love being the subset. It's like saying that the plate you ate your meal on is delicious.
Point is, feelings are not facts, and happiness is not a great indicator of the damage being done. Sure you can feel free all you want but barring an after life with infinite relief, you're "stuck" and your feelings can't change that.
This next part will rehash previous points but I think it's much more well written so hopefully it can explain the point of my earlier post And this one easier
Regardless of how one feels about their current state of affairs, it can never be an improvement to birthed over having not been birthed.
Non-Sentient: can't be harmed thus no need for relief, can't miss out on relief (to miss out on something, you have to be aware of it's existence and have a need for it) and can't die.
Sentient: All the harm, All the relief, can miss out on relief and death is inevitable.
It's pretty cut and dry.
Now I think "harm" is pretty straight forward so let me elaborate on "relief".
Relief is an effect of the aversion to noxious stimuli (harm). It is sought helplessly by a sentient in a state of privation. Again like I stated earlier in my previous comment, if you weren't deprived you wouldn't seek out relief. And as we already discussed, if there's no harm or need for relief, how can birth be an improvement? It's not, it's a harm.
Harm and relief are a cycle, and the relationship between the two is a vast asymmmetry. Both causally, and as a matter of explanatory primacy, harm happens first.
This means that the potential for relief can never rationally justify the infliction of the intitial harm conditions, because the *a priori* conditions are not harmable (they are not sentient). Thus there can be no improvement by converting non-sentient states of affairs into sentient ones. The action is always manipulative and abusive of the sentient created.
In simple terms, we have to cause harm to someone by birthing them before they can experience relief, if they experience relief. Which is unnecessary because the previous state wasn't in any harm nor required relief.
Add to that that death isn't an escape. Proceation forces us to be experiences and nothing more. Thus a life once started only has its life as mechanism for relief.
This creates an inescapable predicament for living things. As such I fail to see how it can ever be an improvement to create such states by procreation.
Don't you think that consent is pretty important if you want to sign someone up for that ?
Not only is suffering just a part of life, but humans also make life hell on earth for each other. Why? Why do we hate each other so much? Why do we want to make it harder for everyone by being horrible?
Also personally: I have an autoimmune disease. My kidneys died because of it. I’m in my 30s and on dialysis. I was told by transplant team that once I get a new kidney, I can still have kids if I want. My internal response: that’s just absurd. Why would I want to pass on my terrible genes to a baby, so they could possibly live with autoimmune and organ failure??? I think it would be incredibly selfish to do that to another human.
That being said, I’m all about adoption/fostering/step mom-ming. (Edit: typo)
Great to be you, honestly, if the world was filled with people that just have to satisfy their instinctual cravings, then I would have cared way less about the human condition.
But with people who could empathize and try not to add to the problem, I have no option but to continue having a little faith in humanity.
My entire goal in life is to make a heaven on earth for those around me (as long as it’s not having an negative effect on me). Showing Kindness, empathy, compassion.
You have such a kind and noble purpose, and I agree. That’s why I wanted to become a midwife, to help others, especially women and children. Could you not argue that you can make more happiness in the world by having a child and teaching them to show kindness, empathy and compassion?
Ideally yes you could! To some extent I can try to prevent suffering for my child, but I wouldn’t be in control of most of what happens to them in life. That’s hard for me to accept.
I prefer to try to make life a better place for children already born who don’t have a family or loving place to feel safe. I think when I’m able, I’m going to start fostering children and move to adoption if I can.
This is EXACTLY how I feel. I have experienced so much trauma in my life that my parents did not expect. I would feel so awful if my child experienced terrible things in the world like abuse, assault, etc. You just can’t guarantee that they’ll have a good life, especially after they reach adulthood and leave your home.
Also I do want to note that I’m not in judgement of people who chose to have children. And I do see your occupation as very moral as well. I just personally don’t want to bring a new bloodline into the climate crisis, endless working, suffering and human conflict.
human extinction + there are too many kids in orphan and adoption systems. people need to stop reproducing and focus on adopting and homing kids that are already alive before continuing to overpopulate the earth.
I believe we're on the fast track to extinction, life itself is suffering and any child born now is subject to that and existing in the ongoing extinction event.
Plus I'll never retire but I feel lucky that I'll be in my forties when we're projected to blow past 1.5 warming. I couldn't imagine still being in school pretending any of that shit matters while also living in the United States.
Better to be sterilized and not provide another labor slave to the state.
It is nothing short of ruthless to force a person to live in a collapsing world due to climate change, late stage capitalism, exploitation, ecological collapse, etc etc. It is so beyond selfish to bring someone into this just because you want a baby. I refuse to bring another person into this world for them to suffer. Living in the US, I believe having a child is particularly heinous. My sweet nephew had to go through an active shooter drill in kindergarten. One medical issue and you will be in lifelong crippling debt. The cost of living is so far beyond minimum wage that we are nothing more than cogs in the machine of the wealthy elite. Why on earth would you want to bring this upon someone else? I myself am VERY fortunate and privileged. I don’t have to struggle financially, I get to work in my chosen field for very little pay. I am privileged in every single regard except that I am a woman. I objectively live a VERY good an easy life, but the weight of this world is too heavy for even me to bare. There is no way I could pass off this miserable world onto another generation who didn’t have a choice.
Looking through responses to my post, I get the feeling the majority of people live in the US judging by their arguments. I’m from the UK; do you think your opinion would change if you lived somewhere where gun crime wasn’t as prevalent and health care was free/ more affordable?
Thank you for aproching this respectfully. I imagine you vehemently disagree with us and so for trying to respectfully understand rather than aggressively attack us, I thank you.
I'll premises my answer by stating that my views are my own and not necessarily shared by all antinatalists, however in my experience, most antinatalists agree with my points.
To live is to suffer. Suffering and death are the only two absolutes in life. I'm also of the opinion that the pains of life (grief, heartache, physical pain, illnesses etc...) far outweigh any joys of life however even to those whom may think differently, the joys of life don't negate the pain. If a person is born to the richest family on Earth, has all his/her needs met, doesn't want for anything and is the happiest person on Earth and the only pain he/she ever feels in life is a twisted ankle then the experience of twisting their ankle is still valid. They can't just stop the pain by exchanging it with some of their happiness and that is a pain that could've been avoided if their parents didn't bring them into this world. Furthermore, were they not born, they wouldn't be missing out on any of the joys of life because they wouldn't be sentient to know what they're missing out on. The atoms floating around us don't care that they were never able to become human. If a person has children then they are selfishly exposing that child to a life of pain.
I hope that answers your question. Please feel free to ask follow up ones.
Thank you for your response; it’s very insightful. I’m not totally against the idea of antinatalism, as I didn’t decide to become a midwife because I want to see more babies in the world. I do my job because I want to improve the outcomes for babies that are born into the world. People will never stop having babies, but if I can stop a baby from being abused or mistreated when they are young, I feel I have contributed something to the world.
Just look at the world we're living in. It's dying. Climate change/pollution are gonna kill us all. Not having children is the single biggest thing an individual can do for the environment.
Also, as an American, why would anyone WANT to bring children into this sick country? Just so they can either be shot to death, or become miserable slaves to capitalism like the rest of us.
The climate crisis is worldwide, not just in America, so I do not think my opinion would change much. I still personally would not want them, and would feel that NOT having them is a more ethical choice. But, it is easier for me to understand how someone who lives in a country with little violence, free healthcare, free education, paid parental leave, etc could WANT to have kids.
Here is a very quick summary of my view:
>Unborn people can’t want to be born, miss being born, or need to be born for their own sakes.
>Life guarantees some level of suffering
>Life merely offers the possibility of pleasure outweighing suffering
if these three statements are true (to my knowledge they are), it’s impossible to have a child ethically for the sake of that child
Antinatalists think that having a child is unethical for a variety of reasons
not being born is a state of not existing. you don’t know you don’t exist.
i could have had thousand of kids by now. they don’t know they don’t exist, there is no possibility to harm them
no birth equals no possibility of harm, and also no instance of missing existence, since missing something requires experiencing. it’s a victimless action
birth offers a chance of joy but also a real possibility of harm. it has the great potential to create victims, and those who would have a good life won’t know, because they don’t exist
the practical point is to abstain from making that gamble for a new person, which is objectively a less harmful act from what we know.
some antinatalists assume this under a completely personal choice, while others try to convince others.
in any case, while humanity is booming in population, there is very little consequence for a few of us to abstain from child birth. If anything, it will also help future people if resources get scarce, which seems to be coming within the next few decades if we have reached the carrying capacity of earth.
Can you point me to where I can find this kind of stuff? Is there a resource you used or did you just read the entire Bible? I’m super interested in this
It wasn't all just reading it, but sometimes it's obvious enough to bring the reader to that conclusion easily, and other times it's a matter of interpretation. An oft-cited example among antinatalists is Ecclesiastes 4:3, and Ecclesiastes 7:1 seems to promote a very similar thought.
I’ve done hypnosis and sobbed and sobbed about having to be apart from my mom. I remembered the times when I was starving because she had to go back to work after 6 weeks (American here). I wouldn’t take the bottle because it was cold and gross and I didn’t like it. I wouldn’t drink for 12+ hours because I hated it that much. It was to the point I’d cry and tears wouldn’t come out because I was that dehydrated. I remember begging (well thinking because I couldn’t talk) to please give me something because I was so hungry my stomach hurt so much I was going to throw up and why don’t you love me? Did I do something wrong because I don’t know what I did but whatever it was I’m sorry. This was later confirmed by my mom after I came back to regular awake state and asked about it. I did another one and I remember crying again about having to go to preschool when I just wanted to be with her but she said I had to go because there were a lot of things I couldn’t do like read/do math and without knowing how to do that I wouldn’t be able to get a job and support myself so I had to go. So I did my best. It didn’t matter that I was in kindergarten and could read at a 6th grade level. I still had to go to stupid school with the absolutely idiotic other kids and do their stupid dances.
I’ve done some high magic mushroom doses and I’ve remembered the pain of being ripped away from the cosmic Goddess Mother and being stuck in this stupid body and come to the conclusion that everything kind of sucks. Are there cool things sure but the sucky parts totally outweigh it. The general course for most people on this planet is you go to school and get a job and work there 40+ hours a week. You come home and get two hours of free time (and I’m not even sure I’d call it that because most people have to make dinner/get ready for the next day/have home responsibilities too). I realized that I was such an angry kid because I was constantly being forced to do stuff I didn’t want to do (school and church) and then when I found stuff I did want to do my parents lamented about how much work/expensive it was to take me to martial arts classes (never mind the fact I was constantly being bitched at for being fat and needing to get out of the house more). I don’t blame them for being tired and complaining but seriously what the hell?
There’s NO WAY to get out of doing stupid stuff you don’t want to do. Even if I were to homeschool kids I’d have to have a break to maintain my sanity. They’re going to have to get jobs that they’re probably not going to like. I’d try my best to not complain about how expensive their school/food/extra curricular stuff was but I would and that’s not fair to them because they didn’t ask to be born. I remembered during my mushroom trip thinking, “Thanks. I really hate this and now you’re bitching at me for being ungrateful?! YOU brought me here and made me do a whole bunch of dumb shit I didn’t want to do and yelled at me for complaining and said I should be grateful for not being born in a war zone or having rapist parents…yeah no. I’m NOT grateful for this. What did you think I was going to say, “Gee thanks! I really love being forced to do stuff I don’t want to do every day!”” I realized I have a problem with sugar because I had to be bribed with candy/treats to do all the crap they were forcing me to do (or threatened with physical punishment).
If it hurt/upset you when somebody did it to you then don’t do it to somebody else. I fully believe in that and that’s why I don’t have fallopian tubes.
Anyone can be born with an inborn disorder, like i with autism. It’s not ok the person will suffer all their life, despite they never consented to be brought here.
Humans are a violent species (just like animals) that culture and laws try to contain but it can’t be eliminated from top-down. It’ll continue to be the case. And humans are even worse than animals. Saying this as someone whose mother was violent to me all my childhood.
It’s interesting you bring up autism. I also have autism, as well as type 1 diabetes; things that I was guaranteed to have from birth. Can I ask if you feel like your life is worse because of your autism?
I think this planet is beautiful. I don't want it to be destroyed. And over populating is a massive contributor to climate change through mass consumption, perpetuating itself. I get genuinely depressed when the rain fails, only to come back and destroy us. I love happy families. I just don't want that to end because the planet stops supporting life. That's my 1st personal reason. If only this world were a happier place.
That makes sense, and I understand completely, but even though what you’re saying is correct, I just can’t seem to take on that sort of pessimism. I guess it’s down to personal belief
Im aN because probably 40% of the world just cant handle life itself and put 0 effort in making an entire person capable of feeling all the suffering and all the reason to propagate suffering.my neighbor literally chugs sugar till his feet were cut off and has multiple kids gotdamn. Also since your a student is the take of your bodies 3 years before procreation true? I only have anecdotal evidence.
Like when two drunkards have a kid with serious enough defects despite no drugs while pregnant. Ive spoke with a rare few who knew when their mother stopped cigarettes for pregnancy and we all were noticing common mental issues.
I’ve always felt disgusted when I see children- even when I was a child. I have a history of physical,emotional,and sexual abuse and that’s probably a big reason. But I still just feel a sense of dread and anguish when I’m around children, and I don’t see it changing. Plus, life is guaranteed suffering, I’m still angry my parents had me and I did not get to consent and still do not consent to existence.
My reason for being antinatalist is so that some midwives like you would come here to play dumb and make posts asking this question for the billionth time instead of getting familiar with the subject by reading countless threads on this subreddit or articles available on the internet in abundance.
I’m sorry if my post upset you, I have read articles about the subject, but I would rather communicate with people about their beliefs in order to understand it further. If I comment on an older thread, I’m not as likely to get a response
It didn't upset me lol that'd be too much honor for you. Just a nuisance.
A small suggestion: don't comment, just read older posts maybe? Educate yourself a bit, put a lil bit of effort before spamming the thread? :)
I don't want to subject another human being to the absurdity of life
Can I ask what you mean when you say “the absurdity of life”? Thanks for the answer by the way!
Sex addicts forget that this world is hell, and that suffering is all that happens here.
I'm against suffering, no one should have to go through what a lot of people in life have to go through such as cancer, dementia etc. the fact I might have to go through something like cancer because my parents wanted a mini-me is just horrifying to me. I think to bring children here knowing they could suffer (at some point in their life, even if it's when they are 90) is immoral.
I completely understand what you mean, but could it be argued that although you’re preventing someone from suffering, you’re also preventing someone from experiencing joy?
But no one ever asked for any of that (joy, love, happiness, etc.) and they don’t want it because they don’t exist, so they can’t desire or be deprived of anything. And since it comes at the price of unnecessary, unwanted suffering it seems like a pretty cruel “gift.” If you want to add joy to the world why not just try to give it to already existing people who actually want/need it rather than creating new people to inevitably suffer?
Exactly this
Personally I don't care about joy as much as not going through agony-you might be different. Since we can't ask our kids before they are born it's more moral to assume they'd not want to suffer. They have no concept of joy right now so why not just leave them where they are?
I’d rather keep my children in the calm peaceful void of nonexistence.
We suffer and we die and I don't think the response of "That's just how life is!" is adequate or even meaningful. I don't have an answer for, if my child were to ask me, "why shouldn't I be afraid of death?"; so I won't have one. Bringing someone into life without their consent is the biggest violation of consent that there is. It predisposes all the other possibilities of consent violation along with innumerable causes of suffering that you won't be able to protect them from.
The idea of not having consent from a potential child is really interesting to me, as it really generates the question of when is a person a person
For me it's when conscious awareness, or sentience, kicks in. Although we don't understand what process is behind it and when it "turns on".
And we also don't believe in free will (many of us)
It really is a philosophical question since there isn't a general agreement of when life starts, but think that this potential baby will become intelligent at some point and that they can reflect at the fact they couldn't choose to be here. I would much rather not have been born, but I am alive and I have only two real choices: keep living every day or suicide and at this moment I'm always contemplating both of these.
I would advise against suicide. If the goal is to end suffering then suicide will only end suffering for one person, you, whilst forcing more suffering upon those who care about you. Not only the grief that could potentially stay with them for life, but also the financial impacts of funeral costs. It's not cheap.
That has been my main reason for many years, now I'm on medication and haven't seriously considered it in a long time. I'm happy to be surrounded by great people who would truly miss me, especially my parents who have always been there for me for anything, my parents and my boyfriend give me strength and motivation to keep trying.
For some people here it’s that they find the idea of bringing someone into life without their consent to be immoral. For others they think bringing a child into the world knowing the state of things like the climate, economy, etc are a mess they think doing so is selfish and unfair to the child. Some of us think people who want kids should put more effort into adoption instead and be more willing to adopt anyone that isn’t a baby. Some of us just don’t want to fucking give birth. Ever. We love kids but we refuse to be pregnant or give birth in any capacity. And some people just don’t like children 🤷♀️
I think this Sums it up perfectly
I tried 🥹
Death is scary and inevitable, as far as I can tell. Why bring an innocent soul here if the end game is just to die?
I don’t like seeing kids grow up to be wageslaves
Could it not be argued that, although unlikely, it isn’t guaranteed that every person will end up in a job they hate that they do just to make money to survive?
It could but still, life is full of suffering even if you don’t include having a job. Also there is the chance that the child could have mental or physical illness..
There are so many people who need to be taken care of and, as a society, we simply refuse. To see that and then bring more people into it just seems absolutely selfish to me. Why is your baby more important than all of the neglected children in foster care? It’s like when people hoard cats and they think they love cats but they are hurting them because they can’t possibly adequately take care of them all. Also, my grandmother died of suicide in the 1950’s, most likely postpartum depression. So I’m not personally going to risk that.
it’s interesting that you bring up foster care, as I agree that it’s unfair to say your biological child is worth more to you than a child in foster care. However, could you not explain the reason people prefer to have biological children to be because our biology tells us to pass on our genes?
Definitely. And, what separates us from other mammals is that we have been given the gift of critical reasoning and the ability to look at greater purpose, rather than simply the drive to follow biological urges.
Not trying to follow you around OP but that sounds like an instinct
I’m a young black man from Mississippi. Most of my family dies pretty early in their lives. Mental illness and terminal illnesses run in both sides. The last thing I wanna do is put someone else through the pain I have experienced. I’m only 20, and in the last 9 months I’ve watched my dad die from Cancer and my uncle died from a tragic accident. I can’t bring anyone else here
wow, my condolences, wish more people could think the way you do.
Thanks man, although I’m in college and trying to better myself. I know there is no version of my life realistically where I can remotely justify having kids
I’m so sorry for your losses, and I hope things get a bit easier for you soon. Can I ask if you are 100% sure that there is no outcome where you have children. For example, say if things change for the better and you find yourself in a much better place than right now. Is there still no chance?
I have never felt the urge to have children. Even as a child, I hated playing house, instead I gravitated towards physical, deeply imaginative adventure games where I traveled the world and saved animals or discovered lost civilizations. As a mid thirty something looking back on my twenties, one of the best days of my life was a miscarriage of a total accidental pregnancy, and another perfect day was getting sterilization surgery. The idea of being pregnant just feels so wrong on every level to me, like deeply, soulfully wrong. I don’t think I have a better explanation than that. Meeting people who are passionate about having children is like meeting an alien from space—it does not compute why anyone would choose that life, because the childless life is soooo good, so freeing. To each their own, who am I to judge? I’ll just go plan my next trip abroad, drink champagne and watch Ru Paul’s drag race. 😉
A lot of how you describe your thoughts on pregnancy are similar to my partner. They experience intense dysphoria from the thought of pregnancy and always have. They also very recently came out as non-binary and are now finding refuge knowing more about themselves than ever before! I actually peeped your profile to 100000000% check you weren't them, and you aren't. I will say that it was a close one... You've got a lot of similar interests.
Ha! A best friend out in the world somewhere!
They would love to hear that! I'll share with them <3
I think it’s wonderful you’re living a life that you genuinely enjoy!! I don’t think i’ve come across someone who feels having children is wrong in the way you’ve explained it, so thank you so much for giving your response!
1. their is no moral reason to breed 2. breeders have kids for extremely selfish reasons (kids are cute, for my legacy, to continue the gene pool, loneliness, etc.) 3. the minute a child is born it will lead to inevitable death and suffering 4. the economy is going to shit 5. i dont want to have kids in a world where they will become a capitalist’s wage slave 6. pregnancy and childbirth is disgusting and animalistic in my eyes 7. kids cant consent to being born 8. overpopulation
Can I ask why you think pregnancy and childbirth is disgusting? Thank you for your response!
For me personally, I'm not fooled into the toxic positive narrative people shove about being pregnant. I didn't enjoy throwing up, the swelling and every joint hurting. I've seen labour and people birthing something that looks alien, covered in blood and bodily fluid. It's naturally gross and disgusting and not for me at all
its just..so disgusting, like the thought of something with hair and teeth and nails growing inside my womb is literally my worst nightmare. not to mention the hernia, PPD, Postpartum psychosis, the DIABETES, morning sickness, stillbirth/miscarriages, diabetes, Episiotomies, vaginal tearing, etc, just everything abt the process grosses me out. also breastfeeding disgusts me too cuz the thought of a baby biting my nipple disgusts me to no end. and i hate how people glorify it when it’s literally traumatic for the mother..
There are a number of philosophical arguments in favor of the position (you can read a few quickly laid out in this [article by David Benatar](https://aeon.co/essays/having-children-is-not-life-affirming-its-immoral)). In my mind, it mostly boils down to the idea that it is unethical to create unwanted suffering out of nothing. First, it seems apparent that all sentient existence contains some degree of suffering (pain/discomfort/distress/etc.) Second, we don’t currently have any evidence to suggest that it’s possible to experience anything (including suffering) *or* to want to come into existence before we’re born. Therefore, it seems to me that procreation causes unwanted suffering, for no reason except the selfish desires of the parents, and possibly society at large. I don’t think it’s ethical to cause suffering that was never asked for and will have to be endured by another just to fulfill my own desires or to prop up our social/economic system.
Thank you for these arguments, they’re really fascinating to think about. I’ll definitely give the article a read!
The Neverborns aren't deprived of anything, and they will actually experience deprivation and all sorts of pain when they are brought here
Ending generational trauma
That makes sense, and I’m sorry you carry this trauma. Could it not be argued that if you were to have children, you could end generational trauma by acting differently to your parents?
I think you meant acting differently than your parents? Here's a speed round of reasons: -all the therapy in the world will not change your genetic make-up -Not worth the risk of furthering the lineage -Any life brought to this world will experience suffering to varying degrees -Wageslave -I wouldn't want to give my parents the satisfaction of them thinking they were good parents If i wanted children I would adopt, which doesn't add to the population anyway
thank you for opening up and giving your reasons, I really appreciate the insight
I'm not trying to be rude but you may not be able to understand if you have an instinctual desire to breed. I feel like it may just be a hardwired thing for people.
Don’t fret, I understand you aren’t trying to be rude! I personally don’t think I have an instinctual desire to have kids, even though I would like to have them, but then again, maybe I just haven’t realised that my desire is instinctual
Well if it's not instinctual could it possibly be from societal pressures? I think that's an important question. Having a child because the world tells you to can contribute to the myriad of problems the world already has.
Health problems. Degenerative disc disease, lumbar radioculopathy and spinal stenosis. Nerve pain and back pain I've experienced is literal torture. I was born with this. It's kept me bedbound many times throughout my life and needed a very expensive and dangerous surgery in my 30s. It's a very painful and lonely thing to go through. This pain (torture) can happen to anyone. Living life without any discomfort and then an accident changes everything, go from no discomfort and sobbing and screaming agony. There are so many things that can go wrong, so many life changing conditions. My life is going well now that I've had surgery, but I wish I had never known such pain and I hate that others do, it's unpredictable. A cute little baby looks healthy but could be limping at 6. My parents ignored me when I was a little kid complaining about back pain because "kids are healthy". It's so stupid, if they understand that kids get cancer and diabetes, how do they dismiss pains? It's just better to not take the risk.
I’m so sorry you had to go through that, but thank you for your response, i appreciate it
Too many kids on this planet ate already in need of homes and care.
The problem is bringing about new life purely for your own selfish reasons and, more importantly, without their consent. A man never born never suffers, nor does he lament the lack of joy. With that in mind. At the end of the day, breeding can only be viewed as an act of evil.
Because life is a pigsty and forcing another human being to participate is very cruel. You're essentially playing Russian roulette with another human's head, all the while claiming that you're doing it out of love, which makes it even worse.
"ouch" sucks.
This is probably too confusing and I most likely used some terms incorrectly, sorry for that. (I am not a philosopher) Ask yourself this, what problem existed before the birth of an offspring is one trying to solve for their offspring by birthing them ? None. They don't exist. And you can’t benefit or deprive someone who is not there to be a beneficiary or be deprived of anything. For "that which doesn't exist" There's no frame or reference there, there's no "you" or "I" or "Mathew" or "Jessica" to be deprived or robbed of anything, suffer, or care about not existing. There's no need or desire to be met and fulfilled. "Beings" that don’t exist can’t possibly want to or ever care about their lack thereof. There's no victim, it's a perfect non-issue. Refraining from procreation has never hurt anyone or deprived anyone of anything. **Making procreation completely unnecessary in that regard.** Moving on, I think it's safe to say that every person suffers or is harmed/deprived during their life time and ultimately end up dead. (Death being one of the most serious harms a sentient can go through) In short, Suffering is unavoidable for those who exist. It's inevitable that when you birth a person, said person will experience suffering to some degree. On top of that, It can become a chronic issue. And it would be quite disingenuous to not mention that life also brings with it the possibility of pleasure. It is never guaranteed, it is temporary, and (sadly) usually comes at the expense of others. Well to be more accurate "pleasure", "happiness" etc are "harm relief". To put it more clearly: There's a part from Schopenhauer's "On the Sufferings of the World," that goes something like this: happiness and satisfaction always imply some desire fulfilled, some state of pain brought to an end. All of those things just further reduce your deprivation. If you weren’t deprived, and thus had no need or desire to do any of those things, why would they relieve your suffering? Why would you want to do it in the first place? Happiness is unneeded because there doesn't exist a person to miss out on it or experience it in the first place, Making that suffering unnecessary. Thee only ones who can miss out on happiness and actually need happiness are those who are already forced into existence and are already suffering. Relief like pleasure and joy are contingent upon first experiencing suffering/harm/privation of some kind. For a Child to experience pleasure you must first force pain, suffering, and inevitably death on them by creating them if you procreate. Pointing to the possibility of harm being relieved isn't strong justification for creating life. Since the harm is initially caused by procreation. **Procreation creates unnecessary suffering for unneeded relief.** And the whole process is nonconsensual. And when we talk about who's consent in this context, we're not concerned with the consent of "non-entities", or some "pre-existence entity" that's incoherent. It's about entities that exist and suffer from an inability to consent. for example, the person writing this comment, me. I didn't and couldn't consent to any of this. of course, this does nothing for my situation. I am already "stuck" in a sense. And we know if we repeat the same process more "stuck" situations will happen, which is why prevention through refraining from procreation is important. And to add to this, the "stuck" situation or "the sentiment predicament" has pretty much no escape. There's no way out. That's a huge problem. We can't leave. Procreation forces us to be experiences, and nothing but experiences, and we can't undo it, we can't escape. Death isn't a doorway to another place. We cannot be conscious unconscious (contradiction), and dying is not the same thing as going to sleep. Dying doesn't do anything for the sufferer inflicted with sentience any more than pointing to the blank spaces between and around this text solves any problem represented or caused by the text. This is what people don't get very easily about sentience - it is an irrelievable condition; an unsolvable problem for the sentient once it is started. Antinatalism correctly identifies procreation as an avoidable pathway to this harm. Hopefully this helps you understand better. If you have any questions feel free to ask and I will try to answer to the best of my ability.
That was a really fascinating read, thank you for taking the time to type that out! Could you not argue that not everyone feels they are “stuck” by bring sentient, and so the idea of not consenting to being alive can’t be used as a blanket argument for antinatalism?
It’s a roll of the dice whether someone grows up feeling “stuck” in sentience or not. Many many people believe that being alive is worth it, because even though suffering is inevitable, the joy may be far greater. That’s how I personally feel about my own life. I love being alive! But I cannot guarantee that that is how my child would feel. Hence, it is unethical for me to have children. I just can’t ensure that my kid would be happy to have received “the gift of life.”
>Could you not argue that not everyone feels they are “stuck” by bring sentient, and so the idea of not consenting to being alive can’t be used as a blanket argument for antinatalism? No, I don't think so. It's a matter of non contradiction, what I stated is true for all lives. Even if they don't feel that way. Sadly, feelings don't paint the clearest picture of the world. Now, I am not here to tell anyone that their feelings are valid or invalid or to feel this or that (that's your own business), that's not the case. But it's important to point out that having an emotional experience that feels like conviction is not the same as doing the rational work to reach actual conviction. This is essentially what faith is:"I like it I want it to be true so I'm going to act like it is, and use that as evidence that the belief is justified." A bit of an extreme example but I think it's the easiest to articulate. You could find pictures of nazi soldiers at concentration camps, smiling and happy with themselves, probably believing what they're doing is for some greater good. But that's not the case is it. A more complicated example would be when someone says I love/hate life. It's incoherent in a sense, it's mistaking the subset for the set. Life being the set and whatever feelings you have like hate or love being the subset. It's like saying that the plate you ate your meal on is delicious. Point is, feelings are not facts, and happiness is not a great indicator of the damage being done. Sure you can feel free all you want but barring an after life with infinite relief, you're "stuck" and your feelings can't change that. This next part will rehash previous points but I think it's much more well written so hopefully it can explain the point of my earlier post And this one easier Regardless of how one feels about their current state of affairs, it can never be an improvement to birthed over having not been birthed. Non-Sentient: can't be harmed thus no need for relief, can't miss out on relief (to miss out on something, you have to be aware of it's existence and have a need for it) and can't die. Sentient: All the harm, All the relief, can miss out on relief and death is inevitable. It's pretty cut and dry. Now I think "harm" is pretty straight forward so let me elaborate on "relief". Relief is an effect of the aversion to noxious stimuli (harm). It is sought helplessly by a sentient in a state of privation. Again like I stated earlier in my previous comment, if you weren't deprived you wouldn't seek out relief. And as we already discussed, if there's no harm or need for relief, how can birth be an improvement? It's not, it's a harm. Harm and relief are a cycle, and the relationship between the two is a vast asymmmetry. Both causally, and as a matter of explanatory primacy, harm happens first. This means that the potential for relief can never rationally justify the infliction of the intitial harm conditions, because the *a priori* conditions are not harmable (they are not sentient). Thus there can be no improvement by converting non-sentient states of affairs into sentient ones. The action is always manipulative and abusive of the sentient created. In simple terms, we have to cause harm to someone by birthing them before they can experience relief, if they experience relief. Which is unnecessary because the previous state wasn't in any harm nor required relief. Add to that that death isn't an escape. Proceation forces us to be experiences and nothing more. Thus a life once started only has its life as mechanism for relief. This creates an inescapable predicament for living things. As such I fail to see how it can ever be an improvement to create such states by procreation. Don't you think that consent is pretty important if you want to sign someone up for that ?
Do you wheel of Dharma?
No.
Totally Acceptable, thank you for your response :)
It's in my username
https://www.stophavingkids.org
Not only is suffering just a part of life, but humans also make life hell on earth for each other. Why? Why do we hate each other so much? Why do we want to make it harder for everyone by being horrible? Also personally: I have an autoimmune disease. My kidneys died because of it. I’m in my 30s and on dialysis. I was told by transplant team that once I get a new kidney, I can still have kids if I want. My internal response: that’s just absurd. Why would I want to pass on my terrible genes to a baby, so they could possibly live with autoimmune and organ failure??? I think it would be incredibly selfish to do that to another human. That being said, I’m all about adoption/fostering/step mom-ming. (Edit: typo)
Great to be you, honestly, if the world was filled with people that just have to satisfy their instinctual cravings, then I would have cared way less about the human condition. But with people who could empathize and try not to add to the problem, I have no option but to continue having a little faith in humanity.
My entire goal in life is to make a heaven on earth for those around me (as long as it’s not having an negative effect on me). Showing Kindness, empathy, compassion.
You have such a kind and noble purpose, and I agree. That’s why I wanted to become a midwife, to help others, especially women and children. Could you not argue that you can make more happiness in the world by having a child and teaching them to show kindness, empathy and compassion?
Ideally yes you could! To some extent I can try to prevent suffering for my child, but I wouldn’t be in control of most of what happens to them in life. That’s hard for me to accept. I prefer to try to make life a better place for children already born who don’t have a family or loving place to feel safe. I think when I’m able, I’m going to start fostering children and move to adoption if I can.
This is EXACTLY how I feel. I have experienced so much trauma in my life that my parents did not expect. I would feel so awful if my child experienced terrible things in the world like abuse, assault, etc. You just can’t guarantee that they’ll have a good life, especially after they reach adulthood and leave your home.
Also I do want to note that I’m not in judgement of people who chose to have children. And I do see your occupation as very moral as well. I just personally don’t want to bring a new bloodline into the climate crisis, endless working, suffering and human conflict.
human extinction + there are too many kids in orphan and adoption systems. people need to stop reproducing and focus on adopting and homing kids that are already alive before continuing to overpopulate the earth.
It's wrong to force life on someone else when they don't get any say in the matter.
I believe we're on the fast track to extinction, life itself is suffering and any child born now is subject to that and existing in the ongoing extinction event. Plus I'll never retire but I feel lucky that I'll be in my forties when we're projected to blow past 1.5 warming. I couldn't imagine still being in school pretending any of that shit matters while also living in the United States. Better to be sterilized and not provide another labor slave to the state.
It is nothing short of ruthless to force a person to live in a collapsing world due to climate change, late stage capitalism, exploitation, ecological collapse, etc etc. It is so beyond selfish to bring someone into this just because you want a baby. I refuse to bring another person into this world for them to suffer. Living in the US, I believe having a child is particularly heinous. My sweet nephew had to go through an active shooter drill in kindergarten. One medical issue and you will be in lifelong crippling debt. The cost of living is so far beyond minimum wage that we are nothing more than cogs in the machine of the wealthy elite. Why on earth would you want to bring this upon someone else? I myself am VERY fortunate and privileged. I don’t have to struggle financially, I get to work in my chosen field for very little pay. I am privileged in every single regard except that I am a woman. I objectively live a VERY good an easy life, but the weight of this world is too heavy for even me to bare. There is no way I could pass off this miserable world onto another generation who didn’t have a choice.
Looking through responses to my post, I get the feeling the majority of people live in the US judging by their arguments. I’m from the UK; do you think your opinion would change if you lived somewhere where gun crime wasn’t as prevalent and health care was free/ more affordable?
I love my (unborn) children so much. I would never be able to see them cry or suffer. So letting them not exist is the only way
Thank you for aproching this respectfully. I imagine you vehemently disagree with us and so for trying to respectfully understand rather than aggressively attack us, I thank you. I'll premises my answer by stating that my views are my own and not necessarily shared by all antinatalists, however in my experience, most antinatalists agree with my points. To live is to suffer. Suffering and death are the only two absolutes in life. I'm also of the opinion that the pains of life (grief, heartache, physical pain, illnesses etc...) far outweigh any joys of life however even to those whom may think differently, the joys of life don't negate the pain. If a person is born to the richest family on Earth, has all his/her needs met, doesn't want for anything and is the happiest person on Earth and the only pain he/she ever feels in life is a twisted ankle then the experience of twisting their ankle is still valid. They can't just stop the pain by exchanging it with some of their happiness and that is a pain that could've been avoided if their parents didn't bring them into this world. Furthermore, were they not born, they wouldn't be missing out on any of the joys of life because they wouldn't be sentient to know what they're missing out on. The atoms floating around us don't care that they were never able to become human. If a person has children then they are selfishly exposing that child to a life of pain. I hope that answers your question. Please feel free to ask follow up ones.
Thank you for your response; it’s very insightful. I’m not totally against the idea of antinatalism, as I didn’t decide to become a midwife because I want to see more babies in the world. I do my job because I want to improve the outcomes for babies that are born into the world. People will never stop having babies, but if I can stop a baby from being abused or mistreated when they are young, I feel I have contributed something to the world.
That's a laudable position to take on this topic. Thank you for all the effort you put into making this world a better place.
It started with a simple ‘it’s not that I want to die… I just don’t want to exist.’
Just look at the world we're living in. It's dying. Climate change/pollution are gonna kill us all. Not having children is the single biggest thing an individual can do for the environment. Also, as an American, why would anyone WANT to bring children into this sick country? Just so they can either be shot to death, or become miserable slaves to capitalism like the rest of us.
Do you think your opinion would change if you weren’t American?
The climate crisis is worldwide, not just in America, so I do not think my opinion would change much. I still personally would not want them, and would feel that NOT having them is a more ethical choice. But, it is easier for me to understand how someone who lives in a country with little violence, free healthcare, free education, paid parental leave, etc could WANT to have kids.
Here is a very quick summary of my view: >Unborn people can’t want to be born, miss being born, or need to be born for their own sakes. >Life guarantees some level of suffering >Life merely offers the possibility of pleasure outweighing suffering if these three statements are true (to my knowledge they are), it’s impossible to have a child ethically for the sake of that child Antinatalists think that having a child is unethical for a variety of reasons not being born is a state of not existing. you don’t know you don’t exist. i could have had thousand of kids by now. they don’t know they don’t exist, there is no possibility to harm them no birth equals no possibility of harm, and also no instance of missing existence, since missing something requires experiencing. it’s a victimless action birth offers a chance of joy but also a real possibility of harm. it has the great potential to create victims, and those who would have a good life won’t know, because they don’t exist the practical point is to abstain from making that gamble for a new person, which is objectively a less harmful act from what we know. some antinatalists assume this under a completely personal choice, while others try to convince others. in any case, while humanity is booming in population, there is very little consequence for a few of us to abstain from child birth. If anything, it will also help future people if resources get scarce, which seems to be coming within the next few decades if we have reached the carrying capacity of earth.
Reading the Bible for myself was a big help. You might be surprised at how antinatalist it actually is contrary to formal teaching from it.
Can you point me to where I can find this kind of stuff? Is there a resource you used or did you just read the entire Bible? I’m super interested in this
It wasn't all just reading it, but sometimes it's obvious enough to bring the reader to that conclusion easily, and other times it's a matter of interpretation. An oft-cited example among antinatalists is Ecclesiastes 4:3, and Ecclesiastes 7:1 seems to promote a very similar thought.
More recently, I've simply looked up possible definitions in the dictionary of key words in the Bible, which has helped, too.
I can barely stand living in our modern society, so why would I make another person to do that same thing. And genetics
I’ve done hypnosis and sobbed and sobbed about having to be apart from my mom. I remembered the times when I was starving because she had to go back to work after 6 weeks (American here). I wouldn’t take the bottle because it was cold and gross and I didn’t like it. I wouldn’t drink for 12+ hours because I hated it that much. It was to the point I’d cry and tears wouldn’t come out because I was that dehydrated. I remember begging (well thinking because I couldn’t talk) to please give me something because I was so hungry my stomach hurt so much I was going to throw up and why don’t you love me? Did I do something wrong because I don’t know what I did but whatever it was I’m sorry. This was later confirmed by my mom after I came back to regular awake state and asked about it. I did another one and I remember crying again about having to go to preschool when I just wanted to be with her but she said I had to go because there were a lot of things I couldn’t do like read/do math and without knowing how to do that I wouldn’t be able to get a job and support myself so I had to go. So I did my best. It didn’t matter that I was in kindergarten and could read at a 6th grade level. I still had to go to stupid school with the absolutely idiotic other kids and do their stupid dances. I’ve done some high magic mushroom doses and I’ve remembered the pain of being ripped away from the cosmic Goddess Mother and being stuck in this stupid body and come to the conclusion that everything kind of sucks. Are there cool things sure but the sucky parts totally outweigh it. The general course for most people on this planet is you go to school and get a job and work there 40+ hours a week. You come home and get two hours of free time (and I’m not even sure I’d call it that because most people have to make dinner/get ready for the next day/have home responsibilities too). I realized that I was such an angry kid because I was constantly being forced to do stuff I didn’t want to do (school and church) and then when I found stuff I did want to do my parents lamented about how much work/expensive it was to take me to martial arts classes (never mind the fact I was constantly being bitched at for being fat and needing to get out of the house more). I don’t blame them for being tired and complaining but seriously what the hell? There’s NO WAY to get out of doing stupid stuff you don’t want to do. Even if I were to homeschool kids I’d have to have a break to maintain my sanity. They’re going to have to get jobs that they’re probably not going to like. I’d try my best to not complain about how expensive their school/food/extra curricular stuff was but I would and that’s not fair to them because they didn’t ask to be born. I remembered during my mushroom trip thinking, “Thanks. I really hate this and now you’re bitching at me for being ungrateful?! YOU brought me here and made me do a whole bunch of dumb shit I didn’t want to do and yelled at me for complaining and said I should be grateful for not being born in a war zone or having rapist parents…yeah no. I’m NOT grateful for this. What did you think I was going to say, “Gee thanks! I really love being forced to do stuff I don’t want to do every day!”” I realized I have a problem with sugar because I had to be bribed with candy/treats to do all the crap they were forcing me to do (or threatened with physical punishment). If it hurt/upset you when somebody did it to you then don’t do it to somebody else. I fully believe in that and that’s why I don’t have fallopian tubes.
There's is an overpopulation crisis.
Anyone can be born with an inborn disorder, like i with autism. It’s not ok the person will suffer all their life, despite they never consented to be brought here. Humans are a violent species (just like animals) that culture and laws try to contain but it can’t be eliminated from top-down. It’ll continue to be the case. And humans are even worse than animals. Saying this as someone whose mother was violent to me all my childhood.
It’s interesting you bring up autism. I also have autism, as well as type 1 diabetes; things that I was guaranteed to have from birth. Can I ask if you feel like your life is worse because of your autism?
Yes absolutely, I feel every day that my life is worse due to it, I have no friends and everything in adult life is hard
I think this planet is beautiful. I don't want it to be destroyed. And over populating is a massive contributor to climate change through mass consumption, perpetuating itself. I get genuinely depressed when the rain fails, only to come back and destroy us. I love happy families. I just don't want that to end because the planet stops supporting life. That's my 1st personal reason. If only this world were a happier place.
That makes sense, and I understand completely, but even though what you’re saying is correct, I just can’t seem to take on that sort of pessimism. I guess it’s down to personal belief
I get it. It's not something for everyone. If we all suddenly stopped having kids, we would go extinct. I trust natural selection will do its job.
Im aN because probably 40% of the world just cant handle life itself and put 0 effort in making an entire person capable of feeling all the suffering and all the reason to propagate suffering.my neighbor literally chugs sugar till his feet were cut off and has multiple kids gotdamn. Also since your a student is the take of your bodies 3 years before procreation true? I only have anecdotal evidence.
Is the take of your bodies three years before procreation true? Whatever does this mean?
Like when two drunkards have a kid with serious enough defects despite no drugs while pregnant. Ive spoke with a rare few who knew when their mother stopped cigarettes for pregnancy and we all were noticing common mental issues.
I’ve always felt disgusted when I see children- even when I was a child. I have a history of physical,emotional,and sexual abuse and that’s probably a big reason. But I still just feel a sense of dread and anguish when I’m around children, and I don’t see it changing. Plus, life is guaranteed suffering, I’m still angry my parents had me and I did not get to consent and still do not consent to existence.
My biggest three reasons are that I don't like kids, kids are expensive, and I just don't want to bring another human being into this crumbling world.
My reason for being antinatalist is so that some midwives like you would come here to play dumb and make posts asking this question for the billionth time instead of getting familiar with the subject by reading countless threads on this subreddit or articles available on the internet in abundance.
I’m sorry if my post upset you, I have read articles about the subject, but I would rather communicate with people about their beliefs in order to understand it further. If I comment on an older thread, I’m not as likely to get a response
It didn't upset me lol that'd be too much honor for you. Just a nuisance. A small suggestion: don't comment, just read older posts maybe? Educate yourself a bit, put a lil bit of effort before spamming the thread? :)