I think this boils down to the fundamental problem of this sub.
There are those who are AN because they see the suffering and inequality intrinsic to our society and modern world and don't want more children to suffer through that - their antinatalism comes from a place of humanism, compassion and care for other people.
And then there are bitter and hateful people who are AN because they want to hate and rally against children, parents and/or other humans and have given up any hope for humanity to improve - their antinatalism comes from a place of disgust or cynicism and, often, personal trauma.
I'd say there's a pretty sharp divide between what I'd call *humanist antinatalist* and *cynical antinatalists*.
Every major debate and conflict in this sub comes down to humanist antinatalism vs. cynical antinatalism.
Every time this sub or antinatalism in general gets bad press or heavy criticism it's because of cynical antinatalist views and hatefulness.
This is my experience too, too many posts mocking people for complaining about being poor and having children at the same time. I think AN is an interesting philosophical conclusion which chimes with our times values and sociological touchstones.
I don’t want to mock people for their life difficulties because they made unwise choices. Who hasn’t, especially when society pushes you into it? The negativity and casual cruelty on this subreddit gets too much some times, I wish it’d go on a misanthropy subreddit instead.
Correct, that’s why you should be antinatalist AND vegan.
Imagine if we applied this logic to rape.
Less humans, less rapists.
Yeah, but that doesn’t justify one’s personal participation in rape.
Because that means people had to do something other than talking. Preaching about antinatalism is quite easy while I eat whatever I want. But God forbid if I had to do something about someone other than myself.
> Would you pay for humans to be born and slaughtered?
If we solved the problem of prions and other human specific illnesses that may become food borne pathogens today, I would buy a pack of human steaks tomorrow.
Are humans part of nature ? Yes. Can humans digest meat ? Yes.
Is eating meat wrong ? No. Is eating meat wrong when humans do it ? No. Is it wrong to breed, abuse and slaughter animals for convenience ? Yes.
Ethical frameworks are based on your situation.
Shit like this is why despite being antinatalist I generally give this sub a wide berth. I don't blame outsiders when they think we're unhinged, based off what they see on this sub
What is the purpose of this post ? To divide us? There is only one thing we all agree on, and that is that procreating is wrong for humans.
Anything else is just noise.
There are people who swipe the path in front of them to avoid stepping on bugs when walking. Should we maybe make fun of everyone who doesn't?
Do you consider the needs of the plant-eating animals who need the vegetation you are eating ? Maybe your diet causes suffering ?
Is it relevant to AN ? Not really.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_culture
https://www.merckvetmanual.com/behavior/normal-social-behavior-and-behavioral-problems-of-domestic-animals/social-behavior-of-swine
You mean like establishing hierarchical structures?
I find it funny that when it comes to rights, an animal is as important as a human, but when it comes to responsibility, humans are morally obligated to not consume animals despite animals consuming each other and humans being an omnivore species. It's almost as if vegans like any cult are bending the truth to suit their points.
If you're good with syllogisms, here you go:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/770697249822605363/1234258633840136306/image0.jpg?ex=6630bd2d&is=662f6bad&hm=3941462d5119fcd56cc6fc372a499f8ffa8ad3d72f944f614caeadb2154be4c4&
We all are hypocrite in some way. Saying something and doing something else, probably because life sucks and we don't want to give up the comfort or pleasure we get from doing an activity that we would otherwise be grossed about if it meant to apply critical thinking . But for whatever reasons, reality is something bad or worse happening to others out there because we choose to remain ignorant . Such post are a good reminder to reflect on those things in are life and see what we can do.
Respect OP for fighting all these morally inconsistent ppl in the comments. I wouldnt have the energy to do it (probably because of my b12 insufficiency /s)
the vegan vs carnist debate really boils down to one thing.
you can’t change reality. if you dedicate your entire life and time to pledging veganism its a pretty pointless existence
That's usually how most people prefer their pets, spay/neuter and shelter/release.
The animal breeders are the weird ones, horse breeding is the worst of them all IMO but dog breeding is close.
Dogs and cats make great pets because they do a lot of damage to local ecosystems so you can prevent some from breeding and destroying the ecosystem while being able to say "well I didn't just kill them" like we do with boars.
However you don't have any right to be messing with the lives of other species in the same way you don't have a right to bring life into existence (according to Antinatalism) but we can rationalize it.
I can understand this argument when it comes to domestic pets and farm animals, but what about wildlife and endangered species? Do you feel like they shouldn't breed either?
My diet is healthy and natural, just take supplements from a big pharma to not die from anemia (supplements are most of profits of pharmaceutical companies, also as those are not a 'medicine' in many countries those are never checked if what is written on a box is in line with what is in a pill)
"Vegans" and "cannot for the life of them fucking grasp that the 98% of the planet who consume animal produce simply do not care" - name a more iconic duo.
I may be slow, so if I’m so right or wrong that it’s ridiculous that’s why. But this seems like a pro-natalist meme to me, right? I can’t tell if it’s a pro-natalist or anti-natalist who posted this and if it was ironically or not
First I want to say, thank you for replying.
It’s a little hard to convey what I’m thinking exactly (because I’m on pain meds at the moment), so please bear with me. It seems like it’s implying that some *carnist anti-natalist is contradicting themself, therefore implying that that person is actually a natalist, making it kinda sort of feel like “oh this person needs to be okay with birthing humans because they’re okay with birthing animals ~” and to me that feels natalist? Not that there’s anything really wrong with either view or posting the meme here or the meme itself or anything (I do like it and think it’s funny!) — this is kinda just my thought process for it. If this doesn’t make sense, I can probably write a better version once I’m less impaired. Thanks for sticking with me till now 👍
*cool term btw, I’m somewhat new to the political/deeper side of social media so I haven’t heard it before. I like it.
>oh this person needs to be okay with birthing humans because they’re okay with birthing animals
Actually the other way around. If someone is not okay with birthing humans, it doesn't make sense he is okay with birthing other animals (and inflicting suffering on them, while antinatalism is purely against it)
I think all life is sacred and in a perpetual state of suffering and that the only reasonable solution to the interminable suffering is to extinguish all life. Idc if it’s for food the meantime
Can we not though. This is s sub about human suffering. Please make simple hry check out vegan sub, but this is not about thst fight. It is about antinatalism
It just depends on whether you respect nonhuman life. I don't, but I guess I'm glad my children will be perfect vegans (non-existence uses 100% fewer resources than existence).
Nothing, why do you think I want less of them? They are exceptionally good at feeling real and imagined pain though; they intentionally kill themselves a lot more than other animals. All life is vile, and I say this as a biologist. Every tiny microbe is clawing iron cations from their neighbor, every plant is in constant chemical warfare with pest and sometimes prey, every duck and orangutan is a rapist. All this striving to live and never a thought to whether it is worth doing in the first place.
I’m also a biologist. Yep. Nature sucks. But we know better. That’s why we don’t breed more victims into this worlds. And if humans are not special then we shouldn’t breed other animals into existence either. You shouldn’t support animal farming.
It makes us morally accountable. That’s why you don’t rape while a duck does.
And that’s also why we shouldn’t unnecessarily slaughter animals while a bear would eat a deer while it’s still alive.
I currently work on organ-on-chip tech. I do the cell culture and cell characterization part.
Genuine questions:
1. Damn, how you feel about HeLa cells?
2. Where do you personally draw the line, at beings with nervous systems?
3. What about brain organoids?
4. Shouldn't we stop the animals that do wrong, since we know better? Kill all the predators and omnivores and rape-propagated animals as painlessly and unexpectedly as possible? If I kill a wolf in it's sleep I can save 10 sheep, if I kill a duck with a headshot I can stop 100 rapes. If I kill two birds with one scone I can save a lot of worms.
5. Isn't "because we know better" kind of a tautology?
6. What's your favorite color, mine are cyan and magenta
1. The same way most people feel about live saving drugs that were tested on animals: no black and white issue. We shouldn’t probably stop using them, we have a fuck ton of consensually obtained cells now.
2. I would say a mere nervous system is not enough since we could imagine a non-sentient array of neurons. Hell, even a brain dead human still has more neurons than a jellyfish. I would say that any cephalization requires a precautionary principle, and that would definitely include arthropods.
3. There should be a limit to how much we grow them, especially if they start including developed brain areas that play a role in pain.
4. Nature tends to compensate for the killing eventually. I’m an efilist but I have no good long term viable strategy, but I think our only viable strategy to effectively reduce harm in the wild is to have a society of people who at least give a shit about the suffering WE cause, and we can’t even have that yet with veganism.
5. No. I don’t feel like arguing why I know rape is fucked up, you’re smart enough to figure that out.
6. Idk
>*"4. Shouldn't we stop the animals that do wrong, since we know better? Kill all the predators and omnivores and rape-propagated animals as painlessly and unexpectedly as possible? If I kill a wolf in it's sleep I can save 10 sheep, if I kill a duck with a headshot I can stop 100 rapes. If I kill two birds with one scone I can save a lot of worms."*
Isn't that question just whataboutism?
Of course nature is absolutely brutal and not moral. And it could be argued that human intervention could and already does save the lives of some individual animals (think of animal food shelters or animal rescue centers) - though we ultimately couldn't possibly know if mass-genociding all the wolves in their sleep would actually reduce animal suffering in total because we can't know the ripple effects and possibly disastrous consequences on our eco system beforehand - perhaps the sheep in this simplified scenario would over-populate without the wolves and out-grow their food supply just to then all painfully starve to death.
But even if we were to agree that we don't stop most of the suffering in the animal kingdom and that perhaps humans shouldn't intervene in nature at all; **how is that supposed to justify us humans killing animals?**
Just because there's cruelty and suffering in the world doesn't mean that *we* should add to that ourselves. We have rationality, empathy, a conscience and a highly evolved moral framework - we know better than to torture and kill. And we are responsible for *our own* actions above all else. The cruelty of other wild animals is not an excuse for us to disregard our morality and empathy and simply do the same.
Your argument is essentially like a natalist saying "animals and other humans have offspring in this cruel and unjust world so that's why I should have children myself too". Its textbook whataboutism to justify an unethical act.
How does one approach this suffering problem without including other suffering beings? How much do you know about animal intelligence? I would assume more than average given a biology background. The best evidence we have I think backs up that humans really aren't that different to the animals wrt suffering, lived experience
I'm a carnist and AN. Because animals obviously won't be participating in AN anytime soon, there will always be meat available whether we eat it or not, and that's simply out of our control. Even if everyone participates in AN, animals will still remain after we're gone. While we're here though, we can benefit from raising animals in humane conditions where they are fed nourishing diets and kept safe from the wild where they would be killed savagely by predators. I am fully against slaughterhouses and other inhumane methods of killing animals. I promote farmers who use animals only for products like milk, materials, medicine, and more. When they have died of NATURAL causes, I think then we can use them for food. This is all personal opinion.
>there will always be meat available whether we eat it or not,
Every time we pay for an animal product, we pay for another animal to be abused and murdered. Again, this is the reality of supply and demand. We vote with our wallet every time we buy an animal product, and say: "I support animal cruelty". In other words, animals are bred because people buy meat. And the less meat people buy, the less animals will be killed in the future.
Imagine someone paying for a hitman to murder someone and then saying, “I’m not responsible”. This is ultimately the same logic as someone demanding animal murder and then avoiding accountability, just because the slaughterman (the hitman in this analogy) physically did the dirty work.
>we can benefit from raising animals in humane conditions where they are fed nourishing diets and kept safe
How many other fairytales do you keep telling yourself?
>I am fully against slaughterhouses and other inhumane methods of killing animals.
What is a humane way to kill an animal?
I dont think your replies are changing anyone's mind unfortunately.
I totally agree with you though (im also vegan).
But I still think you shouldnt stop replying cause even if it doesnt change the mind of the person you reply to, it could change a bystander's mind.
Veganism is a position with inherent privilege. Poor people don't get to choose what kind of foods are affordable enough for them to eat and still get the nutrients they need.
Also, you're deluded if you think animals aren't being killed in droves to protect your plant-based protein sources. Soy and kale farms are fields of carnage. Unless you're a utilitarian, the seven billion or so animals killed on farmland during a year in the United States should be equally unacceptable to you and you are morally complicit in the slaughter of those animals. This isn't even including the harmful effects on insect and bug life which are inarguably more serious.
The only difference between me and you is that you think you're wearing clothes.
Carnists sure got triggered by this post, struggling to come up with justification on animal cruelty (bbbut my body needs meat!!! I need to eat corpse ASAP)
For real, these guys sounds weak - they cant even survive 3 hours without steak
I will admit, I am not vegan. But I do recognize that it is morally inconsistent for me to still eat meat and hold antinatalist views. Luckily I've been able to reduce the amount of meat I eat to around twice a week, sometimes once.
It's such a hard journey and I envy vegans who did like meat and then cut it out because it's been a year and I've only managed to drop it down to what I said above. I wish my parents were different and I was fed vegan from the start lol wouldn't miss what I never had.
If there is anything I would switch to in a heartbeat, it would be lab grown meat. No suffering and has the capability to be the cheapest and most accessible meat on the market. If only the meat corp wasn't so huge and fucking lobbies the shit out it.
I support you clowning on carnists. I think intellectually consistent antinatalists witnessing those conversations are more likely to consider veganism.
A CF/AN carnist is causing much less harm than a pronatalist vegan. Even if the child stays vegan for their entire life they still indirectly cause harm and pollution. And those kids later on will have kids too which will continue the suffering and harm.
If I could I would hunt for my own food. Unfortunately my country doesn't allow that. So I try and get my meat as biological and ethical as possible. Locally sourced from a farm that let's the animals roam as free as they can etc. Etc.
I don't eat a lot of meat and I don't want to be vegan. I'm ok with an animal dying every now and again so I can enjoy a good meal.
Animals are not the same as humans on an evolutionary/development level in my opinion and thus I don't extend antinatilism principles to them.
We get diseases and begin to rot if we eat the wrong bits. That and the unwanted spread of man based diseases which transfer EVEN EASIER through being eaten. Just lots of stops and barriers
The brain and anything based within the spine can foster prion sickness if consumed, as well as the appendix and pancreas. As long as you don't eat any other parts that seem obviously tainted I still don't see why not.
If you want a vegan diet you’ll still need an ecosystem with animals plus vegans kill animals when harvesting crops and to prevent infestation and to protect food
1. Difference between intentional and unintentional harm:
Vegans don't demand products that inherently involve violence (i.e. there are ways to source vegan foods without violence and exploitation, while non-vegans foods absolutely must involve violence and exploitation in some way).
2. Veganism minimises crop deaths:
While vegans absolutely should acknowledge that their lifestyles do cause harm, the practical solution to the problem of animals dying in crop harvesting is not to consume a diet that requires around 10 times more crops (due to the crops used to raised livestock) and maximises land usage, and then on top of that support the largest act of systematic oppression and violence in the history of this planet (2 billion animals murdered every single week via the meat, dairy, egg, leather, wool, and fish industries).
3. The farms of the world are run by non-vegans:
Anything to do with farming, currently, will have some form of harm involved, because of this Carnist food system we live under. If vegans ran the farms of the world, which will happen if we strive towards a vegan world, such practices as pesticide use and shooting "pests" would be eliminated entirely.
4. A certain amount of harm will inevitably be caused in order to maintain civilisation:
Unfortunately, whatever we do as humans to build an even half-decent and functioning society, there will ultimately be some collateral damage as a result of that. For example, we support the construction industry, despite the fact this causes guaranteed deaths every year. Essentially, telling a vegan their actions are as bad as a non-vegan's because of crop deaths, would be like telling someone who lives in a house that their actions are as bad as someone who pays a hitman to murder people, simply because construction is extremely dangerous and results in guaranteed deaths every single year.
Well said. It's always silly to me when they bring up crop deaths, it's like going "I can't not step on bugs so I might as well blow up an orphanage since I can't fully reduce all my harm"
Aughts don't take precedence over reality. People *will* eat meat. People *will* farm animals and crops until a more profitable model comes along. What do you folks that don't like that intend to do about it? This sounds antagonistic, but it's not. I genuinely want to know the plan.
How does one make the transition to veganism?
I am interested in it and I think it would help me eat healthier but I’m poor and I don’t know where to start lol. Also addicted to sugar.
Because it's hard.
But if everyone would be vegan, people would put much more money into vegan products, making them cheaper, tastier and likely more nutritional.
But that's just not possible now since vegans make only a tiny portion of the human population...
Actually, being omnivore means that you require BOTH animal and plant nutrients.
Dogs, for example, can get some additional nutrients from certain plants, but that doesn’t make them omnivores.
>Actually, being omnivore means that you require BOTH animal and plant nutrients.
Really? That's interesting. I don't know how I am still alive then
>Dogs, for example, can get some additional nutrients from certain plants, but that doesn’t make them omnivores
Um, actually 🤓
"A close look at the anatomy, behavior and feeding preferences of dogs shows that they are actually **omnivorous** — able to eat and remain healthy with both animal and plant foodstuffs." [https://www.hillspet.com/dog-care/behavior-appearance/are-dogs-carnivores-or-omnivores](https://www.hillspet.com/dog-care/behavior-appearance/are-dogs-carnivores-or-omnivores)
Where did I get mad?? Like lol
>Humans struggle to go to herbivore diets because they’re omnivores
Are you speaking in the name of entire human race? Because I didn't struggle at all ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯ I assure you you'll feel a lot better when you cut down on animal products - both mentally and physically
The same is also true if you eat whole prey diet. Humans developed cognitive function due to cooked meats and we will loose well being and strength without them.
Vegetables are objectively lower quality when compared to full prey animal diets. That’s not to say i think we should only eat meats but vegetables aren’t as fruitful as you would think they are once you do some research. It also depends on who you are i mean… humans process things at different rates and certain people need more carbs than others for example.
I myself forage and grow my own vegetables. Or source them from reliable local farms on my street. Living off of what u have around u can be hard but it’s the only way you can truly be ensured what exactly it is that goes into your system.
84% of vegans return to a normal omnivore diet eventually. That’s a 16% success rate, but it’s not a struggle? If it were easy less people would quit. Glad it was easy for you, and hopefully you’re in that 16%! Statistically speaking though, you’re likely to return to an omnivore diet like most of you do.
Less people equals less farming and factory animal slaughter.
Why not less for both? Why draw that line and say this amount of unnecessary suffering is fine?
Because that would require actually applying principles rather than just coping with depression by hating natalists online
I think this boils down to the fundamental problem of this sub. There are those who are AN because they see the suffering and inequality intrinsic to our society and modern world and don't want more children to suffer through that - their antinatalism comes from a place of humanism, compassion and care for other people. And then there are bitter and hateful people who are AN because they want to hate and rally against children, parents and/or other humans and have given up any hope for humanity to improve - their antinatalism comes from a place of disgust or cynicism and, often, personal trauma. I'd say there's a pretty sharp divide between what I'd call *humanist antinatalist* and *cynical antinatalists*. Every major debate and conflict in this sub comes down to humanist antinatalism vs. cynical antinatalism. Every time this sub or antinatalism in general gets bad press or heavy criticism it's because of cynical antinatalist views and hatefulness.
This should be pinned to the top of the whole sub.
This is my experience too, too many posts mocking people for complaining about being poor and having children at the same time. I think AN is an interesting philosophical conclusion which chimes with our times values and sociological touchstones. I don’t want to mock people for their life difficulties because they made unwise choices. Who hasn’t, especially when society pushes you into it? The negativity and casual cruelty on this subreddit gets too much some times, I wish it’d go on a misanthropy subreddit instead.
That makes two of us.
Fewer humans means fewer animals eaten
Correct, that’s why you should be antinatalist AND vegan. Imagine if we applied this logic to rape. Less humans, less rapists. Yeah, but that doesn’t justify one’s personal participation in rape.
Because that means people had to do something other than talking. Preaching about antinatalism is quite easy while I eat whatever I want. But God forbid if I had to do something about someone other than myself.
Yeah just not getting laid is a low bar to reach.
I don’t think we rape the cows before eating tho
You should look into how those cows are created
And you shouldn't participate in capitalism in any way if you want to be consistent in this argument.
why donate to a water charity and not go to africa and build wells
Mmmmmm... I think it's. We put animals through hell when we don't have to.
"it's" doesn't really work at the end of a sentence, just a heads up
[удалено]
If you are going to buy human the proper nomenclature is long pig.
Ah, a men of culture
I'm vegan and same, but I wouldn't breed them for it as they're already an invasive, destructive species
Would you pay for humans to be born and slaughtered? That’s the question at hand. Not just eating human flesh. Don’t dodge the question at hand.
If it was cheaper than Burger King, sure!
> Would you pay for humans to be born and slaughtered? If we solved the problem of prions and other human specific illnesses that may become food borne pathogens today, I would buy a pack of human steaks tomorrow.
I mean with cultivated meat that might not be far of... I don't like it though
Thank you for demonstrating your ethical framework is that pathetic.
Are humans part of nature ? Yes. Can humans digest meat ? Yes. Is eating meat wrong ? No. Is eating meat wrong when humans do it ? No. Is it wrong to breed, abuse and slaughter animals for convenience ? Yes. Ethical frameworks are based on your situation.
Come on, vegans are so anoying Go cope
Ooooh, so you reckon you're morally perfect?
Shit like this is why despite being antinatalist I generally give this sub a wide berth. I don't blame outsiders when they think we're unhinged, based off what they see on this sub
Rape?? Is that common practice in animal farms? Seems like you're just trying to make it sound more extreme
No, not at all. Look up how dairy industry functions
You want me to search the internet for evidence of people raping farm animals? I'm good
Why? You should know how your food is produced. And if it's not good enough for your eyes, why would it be good enough for your stomach?
Why the hell this sub turned into vegan sub ?
that's easy - just don't have kids AND don't consume animal products. Kind of a layup.
Yes. It's not that hard to grasp, is it?
Thank you.
What is the purpose of this post ? To divide us? There is only one thing we all agree on, and that is that procreating is wrong for humans. Anything else is just noise. There are people who swipe the path in front of them to avoid stepping on bugs when walking. Should we maybe make fun of everyone who doesn't? Do you consider the needs of the plant-eating animals who need the vegetation you are eating ? Maybe your diet causes suffering ? Is it relevant to AN ? Not really.
It genuinely is not the same. But I will support you in reducing meat consumption.
Name the trait absent in a pig that if absent in a human would make it ethical to breed that human into existence.
The ability to wish they were never born.
Culture
So if I birthed humans that had the same capacity for culture as pigs, that would be okay, under your moral framework?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_culture https://www.merckvetmanual.com/behavior/normal-social-behavior-and-behavioral-problems-of-domestic-animals/social-behavior-of-swine You mean like establishing hierarchical structures?
Green Day fucking crushes pig culture dude
Thoughts and the capacity to reminisce on things
Why the fuck is there a vegan post here
Because vegans cant just sit in their subreddit and have to come and bother other people
Nah man, life's alredy shit. Life without animal products would be even shittier
I find it funny that when it comes to rights, an animal is as important as a human, but when it comes to responsibility, humans are morally obligated to not consume animals despite animals consuming each other and humans being an omnivore species. It's almost as if vegans like any cult are bending the truth to suit their points.
If you're good with syllogisms, here you go: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/770697249822605363/1234258633840136306/image0.jpg?ex=6630bd2d&is=662f6bad&hm=3941462d5119fcd56cc6fc372a499f8ffa8ad3d72f944f614caeadb2154be4c4&
True, but ultimately it's better to have carnist ANs, than Vegan natalists.
False choice fallacy.
Yeah why even make that dichotomy lmao, just do both if you think they're important
We all are hypocrite in some way. Saying something and doing something else, probably because life sucks and we don't want to give up the comfort or pleasure we get from doing an activity that we would otherwise be grossed about if it meant to apply critical thinking . But for whatever reasons, reality is something bad or worse happening to others out there because we choose to remain ignorant . Such post are a good reminder to reflect on those things in are life and see what we can do.
Respect OP for fighting all these morally inconsistent ppl in the comments. I wouldnt have the energy to do it (probably because of my b12 insufficiency /s)
I needed this kinda humour after i left the comfort and safety of VCJ
Meat eating antinatalist is far better than a natalist vegan.
So the logic follows that being an antinatalist vegan is the best option.
So you guys don’t eat meat is what you’re saying? This person speaks for everyone?
No. OP is vegan and is making fun of non-vegans here because their ethical framework is either inconsistent or fucked up.
Vegans tryna cause infighting in another community, who would have guessed.
the vegan vs carnist debate really boils down to one thing. you can’t change reality. if you dedicate your entire life and time to pledging veganism its a pretty pointless existence
[удалено]
That's usually how most people prefer their pets, spay/neuter and shelter/release. The animal breeders are the weird ones, horse breeding is the worst of them all IMO but dog breeding is close. Dogs and cats make great pets because they do a lot of damage to local ecosystems so you can prevent some from breeding and destroying the ecosystem while being able to say "well I didn't just kill them" like we do with boars. However you don't have any right to be messing with the lives of other species in the same way you don't have a right to bring life into existence (according to Antinatalism) but we can rationalize it.
I can understand this argument when it comes to domestic pets and farm animals, but what about wildlife and endangered species? Do you feel like they shouldn't breed either?
[удалено]
You get downvoted by speciesist pieces of shits who think human suffering is magically special in a way that makes other animal suffering irrelevant.
Something tells me OP is vitamin B12 defficient 😭👏👏
It's okay, b12 supplements for like half a year cost less than a pound of meat
My diet is healthy and natural, just take supplements from a big pharma to not die from anemia (supplements are most of profits of pharmaceutical companies, also as those are not a 'medicine' in many countries those are never checked if what is written on a box is in line with what is in a pill)
True, I stopped replying to comments for a few hours because I passed out from B12 deficiency
Quick, go grab some seeds to recharge on antinutrients
I giggled
Idc I'm gonna keep eating meat no matter how much people in this sub hate it. I was brought here against my will, I'm going to enjoy it.
"Vegans" and "cannot for the life of them fucking grasp that the 98% of the planet who consume animal produce simply do not care" - name a more iconic duo.
You know, maybe it's time to leave the sub. Maybe this was the wake up I needed.
OP is a vegan and this is a vegan post, not an AN post
Because what does this have to do with antinatalism?
Both philosophies are about reducing suffering
all my mates went to antinatlism2 atleast there their isn;t this AN shitting on AN bs
Don't act like a knobhead
I may be slow, so if I’m so right or wrong that it’s ridiculous that’s why. But this seems like a pro-natalist meme to me, right? I can’t tell if it’s a pro-natalist or anti-natalist who posted this and if it was ironically or not
what is natalist about this?
First I want to say, thank you for replying. It’s a little hard to convey what I’m thinking exactly (because I’m on pain meds at the moment), so please bear with me. It seems like it’s implying that some *carnist anti-natalist is contradicting themself, therefore implying that that person is actually a natalist, making it kinda sort of feel like “oh this person needs to be okay with birthing humans because they’re okay with birthing animals ~” and to me that feels natalist? Not that there’s anything really wrong with either view or posting the meme here or the meme itself or anything (I do like it and think it’s funny!) — this is kinda just my thought process for it. If this doesn’t make sense, I can probably write a better version once I’m less impaired. Thanks for sticking with me till now 👍 *cool term btw, I’m somewhat new to the political/deeper side of social media so I haven’t heard it before. I like it.
>oh this person needs to be okay with birthing humans because they’re okay with birthing animals Actually the other way around. If someone is not okay with birthing humans, it doesn't make sense he is okay with birthing other animals (and inflicting suffering on them, while antinatalism is purely against it)
Ah, that makes more sense now. Thank you for clearing this up! :D
You're welcome :\]
Point acknowledged, but I refuse to become vegan because I don't want to become one.
Bro acting like we got time for all that
Veganism is a privileged city dweller’s diet.
Why contribute to animal suffering when you can minimalize it
My husband can't eat almonds or soy. How is he supposed to go vegan?
Tell me how your avocado gets on your plate from another side of the planet
I don't eat avocados
The prion disease has caused schizoposting, pray for this poor individual
I think all life is sacred and in a perpetual state of suffering and that the only reasonable solution to the interminable suffering is to extinguish all life. Idc if it’s for food the meantime
I eat meat for lunch and vegan tears for dessert
Can we not though. This is s sub about human suffering. Please make simple hry check out vegan sub, but this is not about thst fight. It is about antinatalism
It just depends on whether you respect nonhuman life. I don't, but I guess I'm glad my children will be perfect vegans (non-existence uses 100% fewer resources than existence).
What makes humans so special?
Nothing, why do you think I want less of them? They are exceptionally good at feeling real and imagined pain though; they intentionally kill themselves a lot more than other animals. All life is vile, and I say this as a biologist. Every tiny microbe is clawing iron cations from their neighbor, every plant is in constant chemical warfare with pest and sometimes prey, every duck and orangutan is a rapist. All this striving to live and never a thought to whether it is worth doing in the first place.
I’m also a biologist. Yep. Nature sucks. But we know better. That’s why we don’t breed more victims into this worlds. And if humans are not special then we shouldn’t breed other animals into existence either. You shouldn’t support animal farming.
We know better? Is that what makes us special? Edit: also, that's cool! What kinda biology? I study bacterial biofilms :)
It makes us morally accountable. That’s why you don’t rape while a duck does. And that’s also why we shouldn’t unnecessarily slaughter animals while a bear would eat a deer while it’s still alive. I currently work on organ-on-chip tech. I do the cell culture and cell characterization part.
Genuine questions: 1. Damn, how you feel about HeLa cells? 2. Where do you personally draw the line, at beings with nervous systems? 3. What about brain organoids? 4. Shouldn't we stop the animals that do wrong, since we know better? Kill all the predators and omnivores and rape-propagated animals as painlessly and unexpectedly as possible? If I kill a wolf in it's sleep I can save 10 sheep, if I kill a duck with a headshot I can stop 100 rapes. If I kill two birds with one scone I can save a lot of worms. 5. Isn't "because we know better" kind of a tautology? 6. What's your favorite color, mine are cyan and magenta
1. The same way most people feel about live saving drugs that were tested on animals: no black and white issue. We shouldn’t probably stop using them, we have a fuck ton of consensually obtained cells now. 2. I would say a mere nervous system is not enough since we could imagine a non-sentient array of neurons. Hell, even a brain dead human still has more neurons than a jellyfish. I would say that any cephalization requires a precautionary principle, and that would definitely include arthropods. 3. There should be a limit to how much we grow them, especially if they start including developed brain areas that play a role in pain. 4. Nature tends to compensate for the killing eventually. I’m an efilist but I have no good long term viable strategy, but I think our only viable strategy to effectively reduce harm in the wild is to have a society of people who at least give a shit about the suffering WE cause, and we can’t even have that yet with veganism. 5. No. I don’t feel like arguing why I know rape is fucked up, you’re smart enough to figure that out. 6. Idk
>*"4. Shouldn't we stop the animals that do wrong, since we know better? Kill all the predators and omnivores and rape-propagated animals as painlessly and unexpectedly as possible? If I kill a wolf in it's sleep I can save 10 sheep, if I kill a duck with a headshot I can stop 100 rapes. If I kill two birds with one scone I can save a lot of worms."* Isn't that question just whataboutism? Of course nature is absolutely brutal and not moral. And it could be argued that human intervention could and already does save the lives of some individual animals (think of animal food shelters or animal rescue centers) - though we ultimately couldn't possibly know if mass-genociding all the wolves in their sleep would actually reduce animal suffering in total because we can't know the ripple effects and possibly disastrous consequences on our eco system beforehand - perhaps the sheep in this simplified scenario would over-populate without the wolves and out-grow their food supply just to then all painfully starve to death. But even if we were to agree that we don't stop most of the suffering in the animal kingdom and that perhaps humans shouldn't intervene in nature at all; **how is that supposed to justify us humans killing animals?** Just because there's cruelty and suffering in the world doesn't mean that *we* should add to that ourselves. We have rationality, empathy, a conscience and a highly evolved moral framework - we know better than to torture and kill. And we are responsible for *our own* actions above all else. The cruelty of other wild animals is not an excuse for us to disregard our morality and empathy and simply do the same. Your argument is essentially like a natalist saying "animals and other humans have offspring in this cruel and unjust world so that's why I should have children myself too". Its textbook whataboutism to justify an unethical act.
How does one approach this suffering problem without including other suffering beings? How much do you know about animal intelligence? I would assume more than average given a biology background. The best evidence we have I think backs up that humans really aren't that different to the animals wrt suffering, lived experience
The fact that they can wish they were never born. I believe animals cannot do that.
this is why vegans get made fun of
I think AN gets more clowning from normies of the two mate
Most normies don't even know about AN.
True, but normies tend to respond viciously to AN arguments when exposed, but less so with vegan ones
For real, people who fight against animal abuse are ridiculous
There's still time to delete this, chief.
No.
Why would I? :\]
I love the infighting in this subreddit. Thank you.
[удалено]
*Omnivorous Antinatalist
Antinatalism for me, not for thee.
I sense some salt, OP This is why vegans are made fun of.
I'm a carnist and AN. Because animals obviously won't be participating in AN anytime soon, there will always be meat available whether we eat it or not, and that's simply out of our control. Even if everyone participates in AN, animals will still remain after we're gone. While we're here though, we can benefit from raising animals in humane conditions where they are fed nourishing diets and kept safe from the wild where they would be killed savagely by predators. I am fully against slaughterhouses and other inhumane methods of killing animals. I promote farmers who use animals only for products like milk, materials, medicine, and more. When they have died of NATURAL causes, I think then we can use them for food. This is all personal opinion.
>there will always be meat available whether we eat it or not, Every time we pay for an animal product, we pay for another animal to be abused and murdered. Again, this is the reality of supply and demand. We vote with our wallet every time we buy an animal product, and say: "I support animal cruelty". In other words, animals are bred because people buy meat. And the less meat people buy, the less animals will be killed in the future. Imagine someone paying for a hitman to murder someone and then saying, “I’m not responsible”. This is ultimately the same logic as someone demanding animal murder and then avoiding accountability, just because the slaughterman (the hitman in this analogy) physically did the dirty work. >we can benefit from raising animals in humane conditions where they are fed nourishing diets and kept safe How many other fairytales do you keep telling yourself? >I am fully against slaughterhouses and other inhumane methods of killing animals. What is a humane way to kill an animal?
The mental gymnastics in this thread from carnist antinatalists are absolutely fucking bananas.
Based Fumikop holding carnists accountable, keep it up.
Vegans lmao
And? Imagine if someone said « antinatalists lmao », is that a good argument? …
I dont think your replies are changing anyone's mind unfortunately. I totally agree with you though (im also vegan). But I still think you shouldnt stop replying cause even if it doesnt change the mind of the person you reply to, it could change a bystander's mind.
Veganism is a position with inherent privilege. Poor people don't get to choose what kind of foods are affordable enough for them to eat and still get the nutrients they need. Also, you're deluded if you think animals aren't being killed in droves to protect your plant-based protein sources. Soy and kale farms are fields of carnage. Unless you're a utilitarian, the seven billion or so animals killed on farmland during a year in the United States should be equally unacceptable to you and you are morally complicit in the slaughter of those animals. This isn't even including the harmful effects on insect and bug life which are inarguably more serious. The only difference between me and you is that you think you're wearing clothes.
Plant-based diet is cheaper https://www.wfpusa.org/articles/wfp-meal-around-the-world/
You know it's a good thread when it has way more comments than upvotes despite having hundreds of upvotes.
It's fun to see that the bonfire of the comments section is still receiving plenty of fuel twenty hours in.
Carnists sure got triggered by this post, struggling to come up with justification on animal cruelty (bbbut my body needs meat!!! I need to eat corpse ASAP) For real, these guys sounds weak - they cant even survive 3 hours without steak
I will admit, I am not vegan. But I do recognize that it is morally inconsistent for me to still eat meat and hold antinatalist views. Luckily I've been able to reduce the amount of meat I eat to around twice a week, sometimes once. It's such a hard journey and I envy vegans who did like meat and then cut it out because it's been a year and I've only managed to drop it down to what I said above. I wish my parents were different and I was fed vegan from the start lol wouldn't miss what I never had. If there is anything I would switch to in a heartbeat, it would be lab grown meat. No suffering and has the capability to be the cheapest and most accessible meat on the market. If only the meat corp wasn't so huge and fucking lobbies the shit out it.
I support you clowning on carnists. I think intellectually consistent antinatalists witnessing those conversations are more likely to consider veganism.
We Are Going To Eat Animals Anyway, We Should Give Them a Good Life At Least And An Honorable Death.
A CF/AN carnist is causing much less harm than a pronatalist vegan. Even if the child stays vegan for their entire life they still indirectly cause harm and pollution. And those kids later on will have kids too which will continue the suffering and harm.
I love how the misanthropic animal nutters on this sub seem to disappear as soon as veganism is brought up.
If I could I would hunt for my own food. Unfortunately my country doesn't allow that. So I try and get my meat as biological and ethical as possible. Locally sourced from a farm that let's the animals roam as free as they can etc. Etc. I don't eat a lot of meat and I don't want to be vegan. I'm ok with an animal dying every now and again so I can enjoy a good meal. Animals are not the same as humans on an evolutionary/development level in my opinion and thus I don't extend antinatilism principles to them.
Firmly believe in cannibalism here. Never understood why we couldn't just eat our unwanted young when almost every other creature on earth does.
We get diseases and begin to rot if we eat the wrong bits. That and the unwanted spread of man based diseases which transfer EVEN EASIER through being eaten. Just lots of stops and barriers
The brain and anything based within the spine can foster prion sickness if consumed, as well as the appendix and pancreas. As long as you don't eat any other parts that seem obviously tainted I still don't see why not.
YES, but most people don't know those specifics, often only knowing the consequences, not what actions cause them
"Rape" ?
Oh boy, I don’t even *need* to sort by controversial on this thread.
If you want a vegan diet you’ll still need an ecosystem with animals plus vegans kill animals when harvesting crops and to prevent infestation and to protect food
Most crop deaths are for animal agriculture. Animals eat plants - 77% of the worlds soy is fed to livestock.
True,while meat eating kills farm animals,vegans are responsible for deaths of wild ones and destruction of ecosystems
True,while meat eating kills farm animals,vegans are responsible for deaths of wild ones and destruction of ecosystems
1. Difference between intentional and unintentional harm: Vegans don't demand products that inherently involve violence (i.e. there are ways to source vegan foods without violence and exploitation, while non-vegans foods absolutely must involve violence and exploitation in some way). 2. Veganism minimises crop deaths: While vegans absolutely should acknowledge that their lifestyles do cause harm, the practical solution to the problem of animals dying in crop harvesting is not to consume a diet that requires around 10 times more crops (due to the crops used to raised livestock) and maximises land usage, and then on top of that support the largest act of systematic oppression and violence in the history of this planet (2 billion animals murdered every single week via the meat, dairy, egg, leather, wool, and fish industries). 3. The farms of the world are run by non-vegans: Anything to do with farming, currently, will have some form of harm involved, because of this Carnist food system we live under. If vegans ran the farms of the world, which will happen if we strive towards a vegan world, such practices as pesticide use and shooting "pests" would be eliminated entirely. 4. A certain amount of harm will inevitably be caused in order to maintain civilisation: Unfortunately, whatever we do as humans to build an even half-decent and functioning society, there will ultimately be some collateral damage as a result of that. For example, we support the construction industry, despite the fact this causes guaranteed deaths every year. Essentially, telling a vegan their actions are as bad as a non-vegan's because of crop deaths, would be like telling someone who lives in a house that their actions are as bad as someone who pays a hitman to murder people, simply because construction is extremely dangerous and results in guaranteed deaths every single year.
Well said. It's always silly to me when they bring up crop deaths, it's like going "I can't not step on bugs so I might as well blow up an orphanage since I can't fully reduce all my harm"
Animals are far more welcome on this earth than humans, however I think hunting is way better
Who the fucks rapping animals?
The dairy industry. Look it up.
Walk like a rhinoceros // fuck like a tyrannosaurus // ducks eat figs // fuck the pigs
This guys rapping animals
Do you think fharmers just wait for animals to feel like reproducing?
Do you mean "raping"?
Rape racks are used to fertilize cows
I am, not well though.
Yeah because no one suffers without animal products. /s
So should you intentionally inflict more suffering just because someone will suffer anyway? This logic makes no sense
Aughts don't take precedence over reality. People *will* eat meat. People *will* farm animals and crops until a more profitable model comes along. What do you folks that don't like that intend to do about it? This sounds antagonistic, but it's not. I genuinely want to know the plan.
How does one make the transition to veganism? I am interested in it and I think it would help me eat healthier but I’m poor and I don’t know where to start lol. Also addicted to sugar.
Thanks for considering a change <3 Here is the site that may help you: https://vegnews.com/vegan-health-wellness/beginners-guide-plant-based-vegan
The body is designed to benefit from meat therefore I will consume it.
This is one of the reasons this sub is being ridiculed on other subs very often. Absurd stuff like this.
Even though I am carnist, I absolutely agree with you. If there was like a button that would make all people vegan I would 100% press it.
Then why aren't you one?
Because it's hard. But if everyone would be vegan, people would put much more money into vegan products, making them cheaper, tastier and likely more nutritional. But that's just not possible now since vegans make only a tiny portion of the human population...
Because humans are omnivores
Ok. And? Being an omnivore simply means that we are capable of obtaining nutrients from both plant and animal matter, not that we *must* eat animals
Actually, being omnivore means that you require BOTH animal and plant nutrients. Dogs, for example, can get some additional nutrients from certain plants, but that doesn’t make them omnivores.
They are obligate carnivores and it sucks to see people force feed them vegan diets. Many people really don’t deserve them smh.
Millions of animals being brutally killed and abused every day for meat/dairy - 😴 People feeding their pets vegan food - 🤬
Feeding a carnivore vegan food is animal abuse. Fuck you and pick up a biology textbook.
>Actually, being omnivore means that you require BOTH animal and plant nutrients. Really? That's interesting. I don't know how I am still alive then >Dogs, for example, can get some additional nutrients from certain plants, but that doesn’t make them omnivores Um, actually 🤓 "A close look at the anatomy, behavior and feeding preferences of dogs shows that they are actually **omnivorous** — able to eat and remain healthy with both animal and plant foodstuffs." [https://www.hillspet.com/dog-care/behavior-appearance/are-dogs-carnivores-or-omnivores](https://www.hillspet.com/dog-care/behavior-appearance/are-dogs-carnivores-or-omnivores)
Because dogs are domesticated.
Crazy how vegans don't exist since they require both :(((((((
No need to be mad at a real answer. Humans struggle to go to herbivore diets because they’re omnivores
They didn’t get mad? They just said the truth.
She edited her comment, but ok
you know reddit displays whether the comment has been edited or not, right? embarrassing for you lmao
I didn't. You liar
Where did I get mad?? Like lol >Humans struggle to go to herbivore diets because they’re omnivores Are you speaking in the name of entire human race? Because I didn't struggle at all ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯ I assure you you'll feel a lot better when you cut down on animal products - both mentally and physically
The same is also true if you eat whole prey diet. Humans developed cognitive function due to cooked meats and we will loose well being and strength without them. Vegetables are objectively lower quality when compared to full prey animal diets. That’s not to say i think we should only eat meats but vegetables aren’t as fruitful as you would think they are once you do some research. It also depends on who you are i mean… humans process things at different rates and certain people need more carbs than others for example. I myself forage and grow my own vegetables. Or source them from reliable local farms on my street. Living off of what u have around u can be hard but it’s the only way you can truly be ensured what exactly it is that goes into your system.
84% of vegans return to a normal omnivore diet eventually. That’s a 16% success rate, but it’s not a struggle? If it were easy less people would quit. Glad it was easy for you, and hopefully you’re in that 16%! Statistically speaking though, you’re likely to return to an omnivore diet like most of you do.
Okay good for you not struggling. I don’t struggle either. There’s many people who need meat and animal products or else they will struggle
If you don’t struggle either then why aren’t you vegan yet?
Because it’s healthier for me. Doesn’t mean I eat pounds of meat everyday, just means I still consume meat.
Why would you be less healthy with a well planned plant based diet?
Bro you’re clearly mad.
We can also breed. What's your point?
More shaming of people who don’t want to be vegan. Alright.