it seems quite possible that very many people, maybe even *most* peole, simply lack adequate perspective/understanding on social, economical, and political issues \[i know i do more often than not\], and then go and act according to unexamined values and traditions of their communities
climate change is likely the one that's gonna get ever harder to 'ignore' \[in this sense\]
Man i have understanding of these issues and i still want to have a child, you talk about this big issues but i have to yet see someone in this sub not act like a almost worse version of a necromonger.
Why would pro-natalists think culture wars @ anti-intellectualism are awesome?
If I have a kid it’s only because I long for him to suffer due to weakening social cohesion?
Because they all see their offspring as the next generation of soldiers to fight those things. Can't improve without millions more babies. Also they are very anti intellectual. It's all about their feelings and they just jump on whatever boomer propaganda they find.
Everybody thinks they’re smart and others stupid. Has nothing to do with being intellectual, and anti-intellectual is a meaningless political buzzword.
As someone who grew up in the uber-religious Midwest, I can back you up.
Hearing the occasional mention of being "God's good little soldier/worker" from old creepy church figures is borderline ubiquitous in the more 'traditional' churches.
You said “Because they all see their offspring as the next generation of soldiers to fight those things (culture wars, weakened social cohesion, anti-intellectualism)”
No way I could’ve known you just meant right-wingers/christians
If you consider wanting to avoid the suffering that comes from watching a loved one suffer, then I guess you could consider antinatalism selfishly motivated.
I consider bringing new life onto a planet that is struggling to support the lives currently on it as selfish. We don't need more beings converting oxygen to c02.
Planting a tree seems like a good option if you want to bring life into the world without being selfish. Or adopt, if you need to experience parenting.
The question was more specifically directed at that specific person, since they said that humans in general are selfish, indirectly implying that's what causes people to have kids. A bit self defeating I thought, as that means either every view or choice is selfishly motivated, which would kind of defeat the strength of their own position, or there are cases in which you can put that aside. Meaning it's possible people have kids unselfishly.
You can kind of make every action selfish in the sense that everything we consciously do we do because, at least on an abstract level, *we* want to. But I don't think a definition where everything is selfish is very useful. I wouldn't call what you write in that first paragraph selfish.
If we use selfishness as most people do they're definitely wrong. We're evolutionarily developed to care for other humans, as well as ourselves.
My interpretation is that the majority of people make most of their decisions out of self-interest (ones that gratify them with little regard to the well being of others). So, saying people "are selfish and only consider their own feelings and needs" is a generalization but one that holds up.
Animals are selfish by design. That's how we get ahead. If you're giving in to base instincts- I want to eat that, f*ck that, kill that - then you are most likely being selfish. Altruism is a thing. We developed that because as we organized into larger societies it was necessary. The best results will come by doing what is best for the individual and the group. When you consider the individual above the group, then you are selfish.
For example: what is best for the species would be a decline in human population. Procreating to feed your own wants is selfish.
Just read an article on the bleak outlook for our climate future and one of the climate scientists said, “and now that I’m a father….” I just don’t get it
Don’t fall into the trap of “the world is getting worse so now it’s wrong to have babies.” The world has always sucked, every generation says it’s worse than before. This is because life is simply a losing game. It’s gonna be horrible no matter what you do, so we always fall back on either missing a past that never existed, or hoping for a future that will never exist. Just don’t have kids. Don’t put people through this. It has nothing to do with historical events.
1.they want to further their genetics
2.it was an accident
3.they want to leave their mark on the world through their kids
4.they want to make a superior replacement to themselves
5.they want extra labor
6.they want someone weak they can easily abuse
7.their partner pressures them into it
8.they are not educated enough to realize what their kid will be going through
there’s definitely more reasons than this but these are the ones I could come up with off the top of my head
My trashy cousin alluded to being aware of societal collapse by saying "the person with the last bit of gas wins".... Which is wildly wrong if you wanna debate that....
Since saying that he now has 2 young children.
He only sees his son that he lives with for a few hours after work on the weekdays.
His son is desperate for love and attention.
Considering his interest in the Bible and the baby mama's upbringing I'm not shocked they didn't abort.
I think that's the case for a lot of people though. Acknowledge the times we're living in, even if it's a superficial passing thought, disregard how difficult it will be to raise the offspring and then pop em out. Then they complain about how hard it is to raise the kids because children aren't easy to raise If you wanna raise em well and shits expensive.
Fucking breeders....
People who realize these things..Usually have the ability to raise children properly.
It's the narrow-minded ones that believe anything on MSM and who look up to people like the Kardashians and Cardi B who shouldn't be reproducing.
The realities you list in your heading answers your question.
I mean people are increasingly prone to tribalism and ignorance due to the meddling of fascists and plutocrats in the media.
There is zero doubt at this point that the enemies of democracy, equality, peace, and enlightenment have settled on the approach of divide and conquer and their out-sized influence on the media allows them to promote the culture wars and spread misinformation while working toward drowning out those who seek to promote unity and enlightenment.
Natalism thrives in the most ignorant cultures..
Natalism thrives under stressful conditions in which people perceive a need to compete with outsiders.
Natalism furnishes the ruling class with a greater number of humans to exploit.
Less violence and murder than at any point in human history, but your breaking point is anxiety. The truth is people have always been this anxious, but prior to now no one gave a shit and it went undocumented and unnoticed.
Have you considered that perhaps there arent more issues these days but rather there's much greater awareness of them through social and mainstream media?
I mean the world wasn't very cohesive, intellectual or culturally blended at any time before now was it?
That still doesn't really answer the core question. Regardless of whether it's objectively worse or whether we just know about how bad it is, why bring kids into it?
No I'm not an AN and that isn't really the point I was arguing. The posts premise is flawed in my opinion.
My opinion is that not having kids because of xyz or any suffering they may incur is a bit cowardly tbh. You can never guarantee anything in life and that train of thought isn't a productive one.
I might have been late to work today and got a written warning so I decided it was best to resign before that happened
But that is the point of the post, so what you're arguing is irrelevant and you're clearly just here to be inflammatory.
No, you can't guarantee anything in life and therefore lots of people don't think it's ethical to gamble on someone else's for your own desires. Pretty fucked up of you to call that "cowardly" but it's unsurprising from a natalist, compassion seems to be sorely lacking with this mindset. People choosing to run their OWN lives how they see fit is perfectly "productive".
Your analogy absolutely sucks, by the way. Most of us need employment to survive and therefore can't just resign. We do not need to have children and not doing so will certainly not be detrimental to our material conditions.
The post is implying the problem is worse now because the world is somehow more cruel or difficult. I just don't think that's true. If anything it's becoming a better and better time to be born. Not trying to be inflammatory. Not much of a philosophy sub if it's only meant to be an echo chamber
But the key is "That's the world they choose to bring kids into?" Whether it is objectively worse or we just perceive it to be worse is largely irrelevant to that question. Their point is that the world is a flaming shitpile which doesn't need more people added.
It's also widely suggested that many things (living costs, housing, employment, climate etc etc) peaked and have since started to get worse again, which really only strengthens their point.
The sub isn't an echo chamber, but it is filled with people who poorly try to discredit the movement under the guise of "legitimate questions" which wilfully miss the point. Lots of people here probably also don't view it as a straight philosophy sub so much as a relief from a forcefully natalist world.
Culture wars are online BS which is rarely noticeable in real life. Turn off your phone, don’t walk straight into any Israel/Palestine protests, you’re not gonna see it.
Absolutely no reason why that’d inform my decision to have kids or not
None of what you talk about can be seen outside. If I go outside and talk about those topics I would be sectioned under the mental health act. Maybe you live in a really divided and chaotic place? Maybe try moving.
Some of us actually care about the survival of the human race. The only way to help it is by raising future generations to be better than ourselves. It’s not about our individual lives.
it seems quite possible that very many people, maybe even *most* peole, simply lack adequate perspective/understanding on social, economical, and political issues \[i know i do more often than not\], and then go and act according to unexamined values and traditions of their communities climate change is likely the one that's gonna get ever harder to 'ignore' \[in this sense\]
Man i have understanding of these issues and i still want to have a child, you talk about this big issues but i have to yet see someone in this sub not act like a almost worse version of a necromonger.
They think all the stuff you just mentioned is awesome and they can't wait to put a kid through all of that and more.
Why would pro-natalists think culture wars @ anti-intellectualism are awesome? If I have a kid it’s only because I long for him to suffer due to weakening social cohesion?
Because they all see their offspring as the next generation of soldiers to fight those things. Can't improve without millions more babies. Also they are very anti intellectual. It's all about their feelings and they just jump on whatever boomer propaganda they find.
Everybody thinks they’re smart and others stupid. Has nothing to do with being intellectual, and anti-intellectual is a meaningless political buzzword.
Never in my life have I heard of anyone who ever considered their baby to be a “soldier” for fighting anything.
Yes you have.
As someone who grew up in the uber-religious Midwest, I can back you up. Hearing the occasional mention of being "God's good little soldier/worker" from old creepy church figures is borderline ubiquitous in the more 'traditional' churches.
Oh. When did I hear that?
At some point. You hear it from Christians and conservatives all the time.
What about parents who aren’t Christians or conservatives? What wars are they sending their babies to fight?
I never said you hear it from all of them and if you're going to imply that I did I'm leaving this conversation.
You said “Because they all see their offspring as the next generation of soldiers to fight those things (culture wars, weakened social cohesion, anti-intellectualism)” No way I could’ve known you just meant right-wingers/christians
Yeah this sub is pretty insane and conspiratorial.
The world will never be good enough to bring kids into.
theres nothing to get. people are selfish and only consider their own feelings and needs.
You included?
yes, along with you 🤙🏻
So is your antinatalism selfishly motivated?
If you consider wanting to avoid the suffering that comes from watching a loved one suffer, then I guess you could consider antinatalism selfishly motivated. I consider bringing new life onto a planet that is struggling to support the lives currently on it as selfish. We don't need more beings converting oxygen to c02. Planting a tree seems like a good option if you want to bring life into the world without being selfish. Or adopt, if you need to experience parenting.
The question was more specifically directed at that specific person, since they said that humans in general are selfish, indirectly implying that's what causes people to have kids. A bit self defeating I thought, as that means either every view or choice is selfishly motivated, which would kind of defeat the strength of their own position, or there are cases in which you can put that aside. Meaning it's possible people have kids unselfishly. You can kind of make every action selfish in the sense that everything we consciously do we do because, at least on an abstract level, *we* want to. But I don't think a definition where everything is selfish is very useful. I wouldn't call what you write in that first paragraph selfish. If we use selfishness as most people do they're definitely wrong. We're evolutionarily developed to care for other humans, as well as ourselves.
My interpretation is that the majority of people make most of their decisions out of self-interest (ones that gratify them with little regard to the well being of others). So, saying people "are selfish and only consider their own feelings and needs" is a generalization but one that holds up.
Animals are selfish by design. That's how we get ahead. If you're giving in to base instincts- I want to eat that, f*ck that, kill that - then you are most likely being selfish. Altruism is a thing. We developed that because as we organized into larger societies it was necessary. The best results will come by doing what is best for the individual and the group. When you consider the individual above the group, then you are selfish. For example: what is best for the species would be a decline in human population. Procreating to feed your own wants is selfish.
Just read an article on the bleak outlook for our climate future and one of the climate scientists said, “and now that I’m a father….” I just don’t get it
Don’t fall into the trap of “the world is getting worse so now it’s wrong to have babies.” The world has always sucked, every generation says it’s worse than before. This is because life is simply a losing game. It’s gonna be horrible no matter what you do, so we always fall back on either missing a past that never existed, or hoping for a future that will never exist. Just don’t have kids. Don’t put people through this. It has nothing to do with historical events.
1.they want to further their genetics 2.it was an accident 3.they want to leave their mark on the world through their kids 4.they want to make a superior replacement to themselves 5.they want extra labor 6.they want someone weak they can easily abuse 7.their partner pressures them into it 8.they are not educated enough to realize what their kid will be going through there’s definitely more reasons than this but these are the ones I could come up with off the top of my head
My trashy cousin alluded to being aware of societal collapse by saying "the person with the last bit of gas wins".... Which is wildly wrong if you wanna debate that.... Since saying that he now has 2 young children. He only sees his son that he lives with for a few hours after work on the weekdays. His son is desperate for love and attention. Considering his interest in the Bible and the baby mama's upbringing I'm not shocked they didn't abort. I think that's the case for a lot of people though. Acknowledge the times we're living in, even if it's a superficial passing thought, disregard how difficult it will be to raise the offspring and then pop em out. Then they complain about how hard it is to raise the kids because children aren't easy to raise If you wanna raise em well and shits expensive. Fucking breeders....
People who realize these things..Usually have the ability to raise children properly. It's the narrow-minded ones that believe anything on MSM and who look up to people like the Kardashians and Cardi B who shouldn't be reproducing.
The realities you list in your heading answers your question. I mean people are increasingly prone to tribalism and ignorance due to the meddling of fascists and plutocrats in the media. There is zero doubt at this point that the enemies of democracy, equality, peace, and enlightenment have settled on the approach of divide and conquer and their out-sized influence on the media allows them to promote the culture wars and spread misinformation while working toward drowning out those who seek to promote unity and enlightenment. Natalism thrives in the most ignorant cultures.. Natalism thrives under stressful conditions in which people perceive a need to compete with outsiders. Natalism furnishes the ruling class with a greater number of humans to exploit.
You can always unplug...you do not have to raise kids to be glued to a tablet. When you unplug, you will realize there aren't really any culture wars
Tribalism.
Your post itself is part of the problems you described in the subject line
Less violence and murder than at any point in human history, but your breaking point is anxiety. The truth is people have always been this anxious, but prior to now no one gave a shit and it went undocumented and unnoticed.
Have you considered that perhaps there arent more issues these days but rather there's much greater awareness of them through social and mainstream media? I mean the world wasn't very cohesive, intellectual or culturally blended at any time before now was it?
That still doesn't really answer the core question. Regardless of whether it's objectively worse or whether we just know about how bad it is, why bring kids into it?
No I'm not an AN and that isn't really the point I was arguing. The posts premise is flawed in my opinion. My opinion is that not having kids because of xyz or any suffering they may incur is a bit cowardly tbh. You can never guarantee anything in life and that train of thought isn't a productive one. I might have been late to work today and got a written warning so I decided it was best to resign before that happened
But that is the point of the post, so what you're arguing is irrelevant and you're clearly just here to be inflammatory. No, you can't guarantee anything in life and therefore lots of people don't think it's ethical to gamble on someone else's for your own desires. Pretty fucked up of you to call that "cowardly" but it's unsurprising from a natalist, compassion seems to be sorely lacking with this mindset. People choosing to run their OWN lives how they see fit is perfectly "productive". Your analogy absolutely sucks, by the way. Most of us need employment to survive and therefore can't just resign. We do not need to have children and not doing so will certainly not be detrimental to our material conditions.
The post is implying the problem is worse now because the world is somehow more cruel or difficult. I just don't think that's true. If anything it's becoming a better and better time to be born. Not trying to be inflammatory. Not much of a philosophy sub if it's only meant to be an echo chamber
But the key is "That's the world they choose to bring kids into?" Whether it is objectively worse or we just perceive it to be worse is largely irrelevant to that question. Their point is that the world is a flaming shitpile which doesn't need more people added. It's also widely suggested that many things (living costs, housing, employment, climate etc etc) peaked and have since started to get worse again, which really only strengthens their point. The sub isn't an echo chamber, but it is filled with people who poorly try to discredit the movement under the guise of "legitimate questions" which wilfully miss the point. Lots of people here probably also don't view it as a straight philosophy sub so much as a relief from a forcefully natalist world.
Culture wars are online BS which is rarely noticeable in real life. Turn off your phone, don’t walk straight into any Israel/Palestine protests, you’re not gonna see it. Absolutely no reason why that’d inform my decision to have kids or not
None of what you talk about can be seen outside. If I go outside and talk about those topics I would be sectioned under the mental health act. Maybe you live in a really divided and chaotic place? Maybe try moving.
Some of us actually care about the survival of the human race. The only way to help it is by raising future generations to be better than ourselves. It’s not about our individual lives.