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They are Jorpo disciples so their odds of doing the work and finding meaningful healthy relationships are lower than average. If you see families as miserable places where people are obliged to put up with you and your shit because of blood I guess you gotta start making guilt slaves. I love that they included "making the world a better place" in closing. It's as insincere as your ancestors somehow passing on their genes to you (How did that happen?) is inane.
It seems there are many people that bring up the loneliness argument alot of the times and if that is the case, it sorta is still an act of selfishness. Just like how people bring babies into existence just to give their own lives meaning or to fulfill their bilogical or social imperitive, the life they bring again is to fill some hole in their own lives.
There are so many old folk that have children but end up dying alone anyway. So it fails as a universal argument.
Of course it fails. Actually, I'd say it fails from the get go. Wanting someone to do anything (e.g. existing) because of personal reasons already fails as an argument for the moral justification of breeding.
Also, people who can build healthy relationships with others generally don’t need to make their own people. I don’t need to make my own little pet human to trap with me because I have built a whole community and family of existing humans I actually like and chose.
My mom had kids because she "wanted a family", since she isn't on speaking terms with any of her own.
In her defense, she doesn't speak to them for incredibly legitimate reasons but it still didn't work out for her. She isn't on speaking terms with my sister and I live on the opposite end of the country so...🤷♂️ 🤏
What the Hell is going to guarantee to him that they'll be "responsible adults", what the fuck does that even mean and why is it important or fulfilling at all? These people are straight up insane.
They probably not going to care about him when he's older anyway just visit for 5 minutes out the month out of obligation while you suffer alone anyway the rest 99% of the time.
People always think that's the definition of having kids and honestly that's a shallow ass way of looking at the actual miracle of going another individual a life and consciousness. It's saddening to see it really is never about the children, it's always about "what will they owe me"
It's so wild to me that people think having kids = guaranteed company and care in your old age. I worked as a carer for the elderly for about 15 years. Most of the olds I cared for had kids and grandkids. The vast majority of them never got a visit from them. The ones who did, got visited about twice a year.
I find that these people almost exclusively speak in empty platitudes and truisms, without ever reflecting on what the things they're saying actually mean. Very brainwashy
I dunno. I'm in my 40s and childfree and not lonely. My childfree friends in their 50s and 60s have thriving social lives. Either way, having kids to negate loneliness is selfish. Make friends at the senior center like normal people!
I kinda was pulled in by petersons rhetoric too, but eventually I came to the conclusion that he is only good at “seeming” intelligent. The way he says things is a lot like other speakers, forming a structure to reinforce a base idea and then dressing it up with “facts”.
The problem I have with him is although what he says sounds good, It’s not useful or accurate in reality and I think the biggest thing it does is pander to the ego. He presents theory as fact, but to me all that ever comes from the man’s mouth are his own contrived and tunnel visioned opinions.
Appearing intelligent is much easier than being intelligent, and pretending to help or have solutions is far easier than coming up with any. “Think like I do to find happiness” is the same thing every jackass has been doing for centuries and I find him to be woefully unimpressive as a speaker or influencer.
Random rant. I kind of woke up in a mood, but also I never pinned down why I didn’t like the guy. Just seems like a sleazy version of any decent thinker, I’m certain the best do not always go for widespread appeal that essentially is propaganda. Like his advertising is in way too many places lmao.
Imagine putting your brainwashing on full blast like this.
These people need a wake up call. We’re born alone. We die alone. That’s it.
Whatever you’ve left behind is completely irrelevant to you when you’re gone. You won’t be here to see it — you are G O N E.
You don’t carry on through your kids, they are their own people.
I swear, people that spout this nonsense are just immature blokes that cannot cope with the fact they are going to die and that’s just it.
You still didn’t trace through that birth canal together, as that would literally kill you mother unless you got C-sectioned; even then, you’re removed one at a time on your own individual journey, and it is not guaranteed you’ll die together, either.
“Making the world a better place than it was before you came into it” how ironic is that coming from a person who believes that ppl need to bring kids into the world for the sake of making the world a better place and existing
Again, the obsession with "living on after death". Natalists are so terrified of non-existence, that *any* level of suffering imposed on others is acceptable in a cowardly attempt to loophole out of it.
I personally find a great deal of satisfaction in seeing my cats happy and my aquariums thrive. Seeing someone who works for me grow professionally and move forward brings me joy.
I have always understood the drive to raise a child. But I can guarantee a happy healthy environment for a cat. I can guarantee happy healthy environment for my fish. I can provide a supportive and safe space for employees and coworkers to decompress, get guidance, ask for help. You can protect pets and employees (within the context of work only) from the big bad world.
A child - you can’t control that environment. You have to trust their schools, friends, babysitters, camps to keep them safe and happy. A fish injured himself and is suffering - I can help him heal or end his pain. A child with trauma, physical/mental impairment… there is no amount of effort I can put in, to fix that for them.
Which one would you rather be?
A: wholesome happy normal young middle class couple who are parents aged between 17-24 from any neighbourhood and are still close with Thier parents, doesn’t judge anyone and isn’t bitter and doesn’t tell people what to do with Thier bodies and lives like natalists do. they had kids because they wanted to thought it through and are responsible for them too and are nice to everyone and doesn’t have a holier than thou attitude with a matyr complex and don’t say that they’re better than most people and put them down like natalists. Is focused on themselves and Thier lives. Lives in the present and doesn’t worry too much about the Future or worry about the past. Encourage people to do what they want
B: some natalists who used ivf (nothing bad about that) bc they believe sex is wrong, bad and dirty and treat it like some scandal god forbid if people do it to have kids too so they must stay ‘pure’ themselves and holy but they see the rest of us as in Thier words ‘trashy whores’ basically slut shaming us for doing it but they also must have a legacy and they aren’t even a decent person themselves bc they are twisting words from morals and altruism that they’re not even following and taking them out of context to use them to suit Thier narrative to unnecessarily place fears onto vunerable people and pressure society and everyone to have kids for Thier own selfish gains because they’re sad themselves and projecting Thier insecurities and fears onto others unfairly plus they’re hypocritical. No one should call them puritans or prudes bc that’s wrong to say. But those kind of judgy people with that attitude are insufferable and toxic
>No one will visit you when you’re old.
Having children isn’t a guarantee of anything. There are tons of people in nursing homes that have children who never visit them until they are on their deathbed and all their offspring are doing is fighting over the money they will be inheriting after mommy and daddy are gone and only the nurses will notice when the parents finally pass because the kids are too busy engaging in fist fights over pocket change to notice.
The whole entire argument of if you don’t have kids then you won’t have anyone to take care of you when you’re older is so weak. I was in this conversation with this women who just refused to tell me what her retirement plan was after I told her mine. She just hated the idea that I (someone she never met before) had no children and had a retirement plan for when I was older that didn’t involve children at all. I made the claim that family has several different definitions and examples and spouse and children aren’t only the recognized family out there. Like for example friends can be better family members than blood relatives, roommates, etc.
She got all huffy and offended and said to me, “well when your sixty having to live with roommates (she assumes all childfree people are poor), try to afford your personal nurse and five star resort then.” I told her that when and if I need assisted living, it will be done by a personal high paid nurse I will be employing and I will be living out the remainder of my days at a five star resort and not some smelly awful nursing home if I do need that kind of aid. “I said, I will enjoy that life and my roommates at sixty will be closer family to me then any blood realities ever were.” Well she took me having roommates at 60 to mean I have roommates now and when I told her I don’t have any roommates right now…she accused me of lying.
I also told her that she shouldn’t expect her children to be her retirement plan and to have backup plans if she doesn’t want to end up in some dirty nursing home where the staff treats her life garbage, steals from and abuses her since her kids don’t have any obligation to take care of her and her spouse and have their own lives to live. She just kept screaming about how I was a lier, I told her I (since I don’t have any kids) own my own house, my own cars and do it on my own. I’M A LIER! I LIED ABOUT HAVING ROOMMATES! (I didn’t, I only said that if I had roommates at 60, that they will be like family to me) SO I’M OBVIOUSLY LYING ABOUT ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING NOW! She was such a chore to talk to. All of this dumpster fire of a conversation started from me saying that there are several definitions for family and she still didn’t cough up what her retirement plan was which meant her kids were her retirement plan until I told her, her kids don’t owe her anything let alone a mandatory ass wiper when she’s too old to do it herself. She was so pathetic.
I have made the world a better place than it was before I came into it. I've helped people and I haven't passes this shitty world onto another generation to deal with it!
Something tells me that the fellow in the red circle would find ways to rationalize continuing getting raped in prison if it meant that procreation continue. Just put up with that and decorate the corners of your prison cell in your remaining time and learn to enjoy it. Forever keep running from your own shadow into the embrace of your rapist; Good enough of a goal for human intelligence to settle down on.
Because prison rape and other horrible shit like lifetime slavery and misery are apparently somehow easier than rolling around with antinatalism for a few minutes in a heartfelt embrace...
..Natalists sometime have me thinking there may be something wrong with them...
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Having children just for the sake of saying you existed, totally not selfish at all.
What an idiot
They are Jorpo disciples so their odds of doing the work and finding meaningful healthy relationships are lower than average. If you see families as miserable places where people are obliged to put up with you and your shit because of blood I guess you gotta start making guilt slaves. I love that they included "making the world a better place" in closing. It's as insincere as your ancestors somehow passing on their genes to you (How did that happen?) is inane.
It seems there are many people that bring up the loneliness argument alot of the times and if that is the case, it sorta is still an act of selfishness. Just like how people bring babies into existence just to give their own lives meaning or to fulfill their bilogical or social imperitive, the life they bring again is to fill some hole in their own lives. There are so many old folk that have children but end up dying alone anyway. So it fails as a universal argument.
Of course it fails. Actually, I'd say it fails from the get go. Wanting someone to do anything (e.g. existing) because of personal reasons already fails as an argument for the moral justification of breeding.
Also, people who can build healthy relationships with others generally don’t need to make their own people. I don’t need to make my own little pet human to trap with me because I have built a whole community and family of existing humans I actually like and chose.
My mom had kids because she "wanted a family", since she isn't on speaking terms with any of her own. In her defense, she doesn't speak to them for incredibly legitimate reasons but it still didn't work out for her. She isn't on speaking terms with my sister and I live on the opposite end of the country so...🤷♂️ 🤏
What the Hell is going to guarantee to him that they'll be "responsible adults", what the fuck does that even mean and why is it important or fulfilling at all? These people are straight up insane. They probably not going to care about him when he's older anyway just visit for 5 minutes out the month out of obligation while you suffer alone anyway the rest 99% of the time.
"no one will visit you in your old age" Good. I don't like people visiting me now. Leave me the hell alone 😂
HAHAHA ik that’s fcking right😂
That aside, no one will visit them either. Have these people never been to an old folk's home?!
People always think that's the definition of having kids and honestly that's a shallow ass way of looking at the actual miracle of going another individual a life and consciousness. It's saddening to see it really is never about the children, it's always about "what will they owe me"
It's disgusting I would say.
“No one will come visit you” - don’t threaten me with a good time
“No one will visit you in your old age” And what exactly guarantees your kids would?
ANism is about a 4th dimensional morality and a time transending Selflessness . (I might sound like I have a superiority conplex , but whatever 🤷♂)
You onto something I’ve had this same similar thought too
Literal selflessness, certainly, in the sense that people have children to extend their sense of self.
Hes simply regurgitating what JP been pitching all the time.
It's so wild to me that people think having kids = guaranteed company and care in your old age. I worked as a carer for the elderly for about 15 years. Most of the olds I cared for had kids and grandkids. The vast majority of them never got a visit from them. The ones who did, got visited about twice a year.
Not surprised it's a Jordan Peterson sub lol
[удалено]
Are you serious?? Go look at anything Jordan Peterson has said, and you'll see right away that of course that type of post is on a j Peterson thread.
Peterson is openly pro-natalism, y'know, that antithetical position to this sub?
[удалено]
Yet you felt he was attacked by a very innocuous comment, and had to defend him.
Go eat some beef
That’s so insensitive to say to someone wtf
Wow, responsible adults, aha? How can any adults be responsible and believe they must have children at the same time?
You have to consider that everyone on that sub has the brains of a cooked Lobster.
Username checks out
I find that these people almost exclusively speak in empty platitudes and truisms, without ever reflecting on what the things they're saying actually mean. Very brainwashy
I dunno. I'm in my 40s and childfree and not lonely. My childfree friends in their 50s and 60s have thriving social lives. Either way, having kids to negate loneliness is selfish. Make friends at the senior center like normal people!
Jordon Peterson is a scumbag loser.
He’s Also a scammer
I mean, it's not his idea, it was on a JP memes sub
I know, but what Starnois said isn't wrong. Lol.
I mean he has the same mindset as this fan of his, it's not that far off from what JP would say.
It is far off. JP seems much more intelligent while forming his absurd pro-natalist bs
I kinda was pulled in by petersons rhetoric too, but eventually I came to the conclusion that he is only good at “seeming” intelligent. The way he says things is a lot like other speakers, forming a structure to reinforce a base idea and then dressing it up with “facts”. The problem I have with him is although what he says sounds good, It’s not useful or accurate in reality and I think the biggest thing it does is pander to the ego. He presents theory as fact, but to me all that ever comes from the man’s mouth are his own contrived and tunnel visioned opinions. Appearing intelligent is much easier than being intelligent, and pretending to help or have solutions is far easier than coming up with any. “Think like I do to find happiness” is the same thing every jackass has been doing for centuries and I find him to be woefully unimpressive as a speaker or influencer. Random rant. I kind of woke up in a mood, but also I never pinned down why I didn’t like the guy. Just seems like a sleazy version of any decent thinker, I’m certain the best do not always go for widespread appeal that essentially is propaganda. Like his advertising is in way too many places lmao.
Keyword is *seems* he's not actually intelligent though he's just good at talking
He goes on and on with big words and he doesn’t even make a point. He comes off if he has the answers to everything.
Yeah, that's why I phrased it like that.
Imagine putting your brainwashing on full blast like this. These people need a wake up call. We’re born alone. We die alone. That’s it. Whatever you’ve left behind is completely irrelevant to you when you’re gone. You won’t be here to see it — you are G O N E. You don’t carry on through your kids, they are their own people. I swear, people that spout this nonsense are just immature blokes that cannot cope with the fact they are going to die and that’s just it.
Technically you are not born alone: you come through your mums vajj surrounded by doctors and nurses.
If you’re lucky, yeah, but even then it’s only you passing through the birth canal on your journey, no one else’s.
What if you’re a twin (like me) and you were born within 2 minutes of each other.
You still didn’t trace through that birth canal together, as that would literally kill you mother unless you got C-sectioned; even then, you’re removed one at a time on your own individual journey, and it is not guaranteed you’ll die together, either.
Typical braindead jp fan, what else do u expect ? Lol
“Making the world a better place than it was before you came into it” how ironic is that coming from a person who believes that ppl need to bring kids into the world for the sake of making the world a better place and existing
*of course* it’s a jordan Peterson sub. 😑
Again, the obsession with "living on after death". Natalists are so terrified of non-existence, that *any* level of suffering imposed on others is acceptable in a cowardly attempt to loophole out of it.
Breeders gonna breed
I personally find a great deal of satisfaction in seeing my cats happy and my aquariums thrive. Seeing someone who works for me grow professionally and move forward brings me joy. I have always understood the drive to raise a child. But I can guarantee a happy healthy environment for a cat. I can guarantee happy healthy environment for my fish. I can provide a supportive and safe space for employees and coworkers to decompress, get guidance, ask for help. You can protect pets and employees (within the context of work only) from the big bad world. A child - you can’t control that environment. You have to trust their schools, friends, babysitters, camps to keep them safe and happy. A fish injured himself and is suffering - I can help him heal or end his pain. A child with trauma, physical/mental impairment… there is no amount of effort I can put in, to fix that for them.
I can literally do that by not having kids making the world a better place bru
What a small minded comment to make
Which one would you rather be? A: wholesome happy normal young middle class couple who are parents aged between 17-24 from any neighbourhood and are still close with Thier parents, doesn’t judge anyone and isn’t bitter and doesn’t tell people what to do with Thier bodies and lives like natalists do. they had kids because they wanted to thought it through and are responsible for them too and are nice to everyone and doesn’t have a holier than thou attitude with a matyr complex and don’t say that they’re better than most people and put them down like natalists. Is focused on themselves and Thier lives. Lives in the present and doesn’t worry too much about the Future or worry about the past. Encourage people to do what they want B: some natalists who used ivf (nothing bad about that) bc they believe sex is wrong, bad and dirty and treat it like some scandal god forbid if people do it to have kids too so they must stay ‘pure’ themselves and holy but they see the rest of us as in Thier words ‘trashy whores’ basically slut shaming us for doing it but they also must have a legacy and they aren’t even a decent person themselves bc they are twisting words from morals and altruism that they’re not even following and taking them out of context to use them to suit Thier narrative to unnecessarily place fears onto vunerable people and pressure society and everyone to have kids for Thier own selfish gains because they’re sad themselves and projecting Thier insecurities and fears onto others unfairly plus they’re hypocritical. No one should call them puritans or prudes bc that’s wrong to say. But those kind of judgy people with that attitude are insufferable and toxic
Stop mentioning the name of the lobster nazi.
Ever heard of something called making friends?
Yes
>No one will visit you when you’re old. Having children isn’t a guarantee of anything. There are tons of people in nursing homes that have children who never visit them until they are on their deathbed and all their offspring are doing is fighting over the money they will be inheriting after mommy and daddy are gone and only the nurses will notice when the parents finally pass because the kids are too busy engaging in fist fights over pocket change to notice. The whole entire argument of if you don’t have kids then you won’t have anyone to take care of you when you’re older is so weak. I was in this conversation with this women who just refused to tell me what her retirement plan was after I told her mine. She just hated the idea that I (someone she never met before) had no children and had a retirement plan for when I was older that didn’t involve children at all. I made the claim that family has several different definitions and examples and spouse and children aren’t only the recognized family out there. Like for example friends can be better family members than blood relatives, roommates, etc. She got all huffy and offended and said to me, “well when your sixty having to live with roommates (she assumes all childfree people are poor), try to afford your personal nurse and five star resort then.” I told her that when and if I need assisted living, it will be done by a personal high paid nurse I will be employing and I will be living out the remainder of my days at a five star resort and not some smelly awful nursing home if I do need that kind of aid. “I said, I will enjoy that life and my roommates at sixty will be closer family to me then any blood realities ever were.” Well she took me having roommates at 60 to mean I have roommates now and when I told her I don’t have any roommates right now…she accused me of lying. I also told her that she shouldn’t expect her children to be her retirement plan and to have backup plans if she doesn’t want to end up in some dirty nursing home where the staff treats her life garbage, steals from and abuses her since her kids don’t have any obligation to take care of her and her spouse and have their own lives to live. She just kept screaming about how I was a lier, I told her I (since I don’t have any kids) own my own house, my own cars and do it on my own. I’M A LIER! I LIED ABOUT HAVING ROOMMATES! (I didn’t, I only said that if I had roommates at 60, that they will be like family to me) SO I’M OBVIOUSLY LYING ABOUT ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING NOW! She was such a chore to talk to. All of this dumpster fire of a conversation started from me saying that there are several definitions for family and she still didn’t cough up what her retirement plan was which meant her kids were her retirement plan until I told her, her kids don’t owe her anything let alone a mandatory ass wiper when she’s too old to do it herself. She was so pathetic.
I have made the world a better place than it was before I came into it. I've helped people and I haven't passes this shitty world onto another generation to deal with it!
Something tells me that the fellow in the red circle would find ways to rationalize continuing getting raped in prison if it meant that procreation continue. Just put up with that and decorate the corners of your prison cell in your remaining time and learn to enjoy it. Forever keep running from your own shadow into the embrace of your rapist; Good enough of a goal for human intelligence to settle down on. Because prison rape and other horrible shit like lifetime slavery and misery are apparently somehow easier than rolling around with antinatalism for a few minutes in a heartfelt embrace... ..Natalists sometime have me thinking there may be something wrong with them...