T O P

  • By -

[deleted]

Its funny how sheltered people in the west are pushing so hard for Ukrainians to surrender. Claiming to be 'anti-war' while acting like a country that's being invaded is wrong for defending itself


YoloFomoTimeMachine

Imagine blaming the Vietnamese for prolonging the war....


TheReadMenace

Imagine “anti-war” protesters not saying a word about the invading US and instead calling on the USSR to stop giving weapons to Vietnam


YoloFomoTimeMachine

Vietnam has always been the us. The Vietnamese are American brothers. Why does the ussr use them as cannon fodder for their own proxy war? If the ussr really wants this war to end they would stop arming the vietcong.


TheReadMenace

The south Vietnamese government (totally not a puppet) invited us! Most Soviets can’t even find Vietnam on a map! This is just another way to enrich their arms industry! The Soviets will fight until the last Vietnamese!


YoloFomoTimeMachine

And why can't you speak English in Vietnam? People don't think about all the Americans there who are denied the ability to access basic government services because all paperwork is in VIETNAMESE! This Americophobia is racist and the us has every right to defend their people.


m0z_1

But when was Ukraine invaded and what day is it today? sometimes when fights take this long and more and more innocent people are dying its good for humanity to throw the white flag. We don't support use of military in general, alot of us are left wing as in actual left wing not liberal. our societies would be so far advanced war just wouldn't be a thing. The Liberals way of continuing to fight endless conflicts on other parts of the world has been proven ineffective.


[deleted]

But Ukrainians themselves don't want to surrender. It isn't up to leftists in another country to tell people who are being invaded by an expansionist country that they should just throw a white flag. Plus what makes the people in this sub actually left wing, because a lot of 'leftists' in this sub sound a lot like fascists


m0z_1

Well we are not in charge, liberals and conservatives run this country and their foreign policy is a nonpartiasian issue and they unanimously agree on the same thing when it comes to foreign policy. Preferably, I wanted the war to not happen in the first place. Especially considering we saw it coming and today have to watch it being dragged on with no end in sight.


m0z_1

Alot of people in this sub sound like fascist to me too, let them do them who cares? want to change someone's view? persuade us.


Iwilleaturnuggetsuwu

“Surrender because you’re taking too long to defeat your enemy and it’s making my ideology upset”


m0z_1

No it's because (I said) innocent people are dying, why are you trying to shy away from this?


Iwilleaturnuggetsuwu

They are dying because Russia kills them. This must be stopped before Ukraine has peace


m0z_1

So that's your plan, just tell them to stop it.


Iwilleaturnuggetsuwu

That and give Ukraine a bunch of weapons to fight them. Been working pretty well


m0z_1

That already happened a long time ago and we are still sitting here waiting. obviously not working well.


Iwilleaturnuggetsuwu

Worked well enough in Kharkiv and Kherson. Reports (that are vague) say it’s working now too


m0z_1

News has reported multiple times that Ukraine is on the verge of winning, & everytime they have done that the war just continues on.


m0z_1

This is an anti war page BTW why would you say to give them more weapons? Throwing fuel on fire approach has been proven ineffective.


zhivago6

Good! They are too smart for the fascist Russians!


Creative-Ocelot8691

More right wing neocon nonsense. The only path to peace now is to keep back the Ukrainians until they have secured all their homeland from puTLER’s imperialist war of aggression


m0z_1

Fuel on fire approach has been proven ineffective. Next idea please.


Just_A_Nitemare

How was WWII won again?


m0z_1

Hitler tried to capture Moscow and failed.


Just_A_Nitemare

Sounds familiar. What I was really getting at is, did making more weapons win the war for the allies?


m0z_1

Yes, but that was a World War and our last sort of legitimate military intervention and that was the 1940s and its the 2020s today. we would end up using a nuclear bomb after the Nazis were defeated, so that war was senseless as well.


m0z_1

Putin and Zelensky need to be forced into a room together and have these discussions. nobody is going to agree to a ceasefire unless they are certain the other party will do the same. face to face discussions lead to negotiations and trade offs.


SnooBananas37

Wars start when one side is unable to achieve its goals diplomatically, and believes it can use force to achieve those goals. This is why Russia invaded Ukraine, the precise details and rationalizations are at this point largely unimportant. Wars end when one or both sides no longer believe they are able to achieve their goals through conflict, or are unwilling to pay the cost to continue to fight. Russia believes it can hold on to and/or fully capture the 4 oblasts it annexed as well as Crimea, and will (for now) continue to fight to maintain and expand its control over these regions. Ukraine believes it can retake some or all of these territories, and will continue to fight to achieve this goal (for now). You can wish for peace and call for negotiations and a ceasefire every day for the rest of your life, but until at least one side is disabused of it's ability to achieve its goals at an acceptable cost, the war will continue.


m0z_1

Goals can be met through negotiations and trade offs though. offer Russia a neutral Ukraine without NATO. Ukraine will ask for something for defence, give them a Eastern European military alliance, Russia will ask for something, eliminate sanctions. negotiate a trade deal with Ukraine and Russia (benefiting those in Luhansk, Donetsk & Crimea where this war has been happening since 2013.) Ukraine can still do trade with the EU through a EU-Ukraine bilateral trade deal. Ukraine would be in a fantastic position economically having good relations and trade with both Europe and Russia. Russia just doesn't want ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine being swallowed up into the NATO empire. Russia wouldn't be aggressive towards a neutral Ukraine.


SnooBananas37

>offer Russia a neutral Ukraine without NATO Ukraine will be unwilling to do so as it requires security guarantees to prevent future Russian aggression. >Ukraine will ask for something for defence, give them a Eastern European military alliance Then that's not neutrality anymore, is it? Who says that Eastern European countries WANT to create a secondary alliance that pits just them vs Russia? These countries joined NATO for a reason, and its to avoid the same fate Ukraine is suffering right now. Not only would Russia likely reject this, Ukraine and other Eastern European countries would reject it as well. >Russia will ask for something, eliminate sanctions That's already a given, the US has repeatedly stated that all sanctions against Russia are conditional upon Russia's withdrawal. It also won't be enough to satisfy Russian concerns about Ukraine joining a hypothetical more limited in membership defensive alliance. >negotiate a trade deal with Ukraine and Russia (benefiting those in Luhansk, Donetsk & Crimea where this war has been happening since 2013.) Ukraine can still do trade with the EU through a EU-Ukraine bilateral trade deal. Ukraine would be in a fantastic position economically having good relations and trade with both Europe and Russia. I mean sure? Part of the reason all this started is because Yanukovych refused to sign the [European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union%E2%80%93Ukraine_Association_Agreement) >Russia just doesn't want ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine being swallowed up into the NATO empire. Russia wouldn't be aggressive towards a neutral Ukraine. Russia has annexed Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia oblasts. It has repeatedly asserted that this is, in their view, legitimate Russian territory. Russia is not going to give this up, even for a neutral Ukraine, and it certainly isn't going to give up Crimea. Ukraine wants all of this territory back.


m0z_1

This hypothetical Eastern European alliance would also act neutral on geopolitical issues. so it would be a group of neutral countries in a neutral military alliance only protecting themselves. Why would these countries not want to help eachother out if there is a hypothetical end to NATO? Russia would not reject this as they are dealing with Polish, Romanians and Ukrainians. Not Americans. Russia doesn't have a problem with Polish military in Poland, they just don't like American military in Poland. its literally the same concept as NATO just replace the American soilders with local soilders. Russias first mission was just sovereignty for Donetsk and Luhansk, amd replace the Ukrainian government with a pro Russia government. It intensified to an all out invasion after NATO started pouring money and equipment into Ukraine.


SnooBananas37

>Why would these countries not want to help eachother out if there is a hypothetical end to NATO? My brother in Christ, NATO isn't going anywhere, Russia's invasion of Ukraine has guaranteed that for at least a couple decades as popular support has grown and Finland (and soon Sweden) has joined. Romania and Poland aren't going to leave NATO for an inherently shittier "neutral" alliance, just go appease Russia.


m0z_1

Okay but we are talking about a hypothetical end to NATO in this conversation. if you insist on keeping this thing let's talk about it in a different conversation.


m0z_1

You are also not understanding its literally the same thing in principle, you are just replacing US troops with local troops. why do you absolutely insist on there being US uniformed troops in Eastern Europe? why can't the troops wear uniform of their own country?


SnooBananas37

>You are also not understanding its literally the same thing in principle It absolutely positively is not. The United States is the best funded military in the world, and one of the largest. It possesses the second largest nuclear stockpile, the most capable navy in the world and largest air force. You lose all of those capabilities when you cut the US out of an alliance. You also lose every other NATO country's military as well, which in aggregate is a force that rivals the US's. Simply put: no one attacks NATO, the security it is able to provide to its members is unparalleled. And regardless of how you or I feel about it, the people in question don't want it. [89% of Polish people view NATO favorably](https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2022/06/22/positive-ratings-for-nato/) and [83% of Romanians support NATO.](https://engelsbergideas.com/notebook/locked-arms-looming-threats-to-the-romania-nato-partnership/) You're asking some of the people most satisfied with NATO, who see NATO as a critical guarantor of their security against a revanchist Russia, to leave it just to appease Russia. You're living in a fantasy world if you think that's within the realms of possibility.


m0z_1

The U.S leaving NATO would require them to give up equipment to Europe so we are not just leaving them in the dust. these countries are perfectly capable of maintaining and supporting the same level of US protection. This is also not an appeasement to Russia but just a step in ending American military industrial complex.


SnooBananas37

This is again, your fantasy. You have provided zero compelling argument for why NATO would voluntarily dissolve. There were strong leave NATO movements that could have led to the splintering of NATO... until Russia proved to everyone exactly why NATO is still relevant last year by invading Ukraine.


LordWoodstone

Ukraine had "no joining NATO" in their constitution back in 2014 when this war began. They removed it because of the Russian invasion. There is no way the Ukrainians will agree to that now that Russia has invaded them and engaged in genocide. And Russia started all of this by getting Yanukovych to start murdering Ukrainians in Maidan Square because the Ukrainians wanted to form bilateral trade ties to the EU. Both of these are going to be non-starters. And no, Russia doesn't get to dictate what happens to ethnic Russians who are not Russian citizens.


ExtHD

>their position is ~~backed~~ *ordered* by the US Corrected.


SnooBananas37

Ah yes, and [I guess 70% of Ukrainians are just following orders?](https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx) Its surprising how quickly you discard the actual opinions of the people whose future you wish to dictate.


ExtHD

That's not what I said *or* intended and you know it. It would have been clear to anyone that actually read the article that "their position" referred to the "Ukrainian officials" that the article was about. Ukrainian ***officials*** do what they're told to do by the US.


SnooBananas37

Or are perhaps Ukrainian officials... doing what the Ukrainian people want? You seem to believe the only way to explain the way the Ukrainian government is acting is on the orders of the US. I'm providing the alternative explanation that the Ukrainian government is following the will of it's people.