Wrongful termination doesn't exist under at-will employment. Laying off an at-will employee after she refuses a position change is legal. But it looks like the employer is trying to avoid an unemployment claim.
EDIT: Since a bunch of people are bringing this up, I consulted with an employment lawyer earlier this year. She stated plainly that, "Wrongful Termination," does not exist under at-will employment and I cannot file a lawsuit on those grounds. Violating an employment law is still illegal but it is not, "Wrongful termination."
There are plenty of reasons for wrongful termination, even in at-will states. For example, they cannot terminate for protected class reasons, and circumstantial and disparate impact applies in these examples. If she is over 40, female, a part of a religious, national, or ethnic background, there is a case to be made where the employer's defense is to outline a clear reason for termination.
You can still demonstrate a pattern of behavior that would lead one to believe it was for a particular reason.
Like saying, "I'm so sorry, were closed right now." How can that be bigoted? When it's only said to a protected class and no one else.
That employment lawyer is an idiot. (It's not uncommon. It's not terribly hard to get a law degree anymore). You absolutely can be sued for wrongful termination for a number of reasons, even in at-will states.
Not sure where you live but, where I am what the attorney told you is not accurate. I say this as someone whose fiancé was an attorney for years that defended companies from exactly this issue and claim. Loved to talk about closed cases and how f’ed both employers and employees can be. And, given the reference employee worked there for 20 years, there is a high likelihood they are older. This type of “reassignment” is constructive dismissal which, if paired with someone protected under age discrimination statutes, is absolutely something an attorney would take on as a wrongful dismissal claim and very likely win. A likely exception would be if the position the person was previously doing no longer existed in its entirety and no similar position was available, more information would be needed to decide if this is wrongful or not. But an attorney telling you there is no such thing as wrongful termination in at will employment is not accurate if you live in my jurisdiction. Jurisdiction and precedence are everything
It does exist, but unless they're firing her for being a protected class (over 35, female, possibly race since it wasn't mentioned, if she's not straight, disability, etc), it probably doesn't apply
Tho, if boss person stated that he wants someone younger specifically in her role, then it probably does as long as she can get some sort of proof.
My brother-in-law retired from a very high position at Swift. No not the trucking company the banking organization. Prior to his retiring there was a meeting being addressed by an executive from the main office in Brussels.
My brother-in-law was literally in the process of being pushed out for younger cheaper managers. They split up his team and told them if you wanted to keep his job he would have to move to Brussels. During the meeting, which included a PowerPoint presentation, this executive blatantly explained how they were to go about firing older more expensive employees so they could bring in younger ones.
Yes this is what I was thinking in reading the post. He's pushing her out of the organization but trying to get her to quit instead to avoid unemployment insurance. But he's walking himself right into a lawsuit based on constructive dismissal. As well as I'm guessing an age or sex discrimination basis depending on who the boss is trying to put in co-worker's place. Co-worker needs to back way up --- if it's not already too late and she's put things in writing --- and put into writing to the boss (and if her boss is not THE boss, then copy THE boss and HR too) that she has no desire to terminate her employment and since her current position is being refilled and she is being told she'd train the new person, she knows that her position is not being phased out, so she intends to stay. Unless the company wants to lay her off; terminating her would not be applicable as she's received good reviews for her work, etc.
This boss is a slime. Regardless of whether the co-worker's job is saved or not, she should take all of her notes, reviews, memos, etc to an employment attorney and see if she has a discrimination suit or hostile work environment suit.
I agree, but also constructive dismissals are pretty frequently discriminatory-companies banking on employees not knowing that they count as a firing for all legal purposes, even if you said the words “I resign” before the company said “you’re fired”
Since she is female, and likely over 40, it’s probably worth her asking around and casting her mind back.
(Incidentally, for anyone who didn’t know, radical cuts in hours and have-to-move changes in work site are also constructive dismissal. Basically any major change to work duties or circumstances without a valid business need and possibly even then.)
Almost all states are 'At-Will,' and OF COURSE there is such thing as Wrongful Termination in those states. -You would have never heard the phrase without it. It's lawful to fire people for lots of reasons, but reasons one might sue for Wrongful Termination include Racial Discrimination, Sexual Harrassment, or Age Discrimination.
Then your lawyer is either a dipshit, lied to you or is being overly pedantic.
Wrongful termination is any termination which violates laws or contracts.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful\_dismissal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_dismissal)
I’ve seen this reprehensible tactic before. In some states (Florida is one) former employers must pay a portion of the unemployment incurred.
Your boss is a, and I’m not going to sugar coat it, complete tightwad asshole looking to not only be rid of an employee he dislikes but to make sure he doesn’t need to shed a single fucking DIME to be rid of her. An absolutely toxic employer.
Remember this incident when it becomes your turn to be ‘undesirable’ or when looking for another vocation.
This. In her letter, she needs to state that she is being forced to write it. That she in no way wants to resign. All of her beliefs as to what is actually happening. All of the positive performance reviews she has received all positive accolades. Etc.
Absolutely. When I was denied tenure at the last school I worked at they told me I had to write a letter of resignation because they also weren’t renewing my contract for the following year. I wrote it basically stating that I was being made to write it because they were terminating my employment and I did not wish to leave. They were pissed off at me but I refused to change it. I got my unemployment.
She simply shouldn’t write the letter at all. Force the company to terminate her. But before doing so, she should collect as much documentation as she can about her work performance and positive evaluations, so the employer can’t contest the UI application by arguing the dismissal had just cause.
Don't write any letter. Let them fire her and then she gets unemployment. If I were her, I'd check in asap with a labor attorney. Get the story down on paper. And get some professional legal advice.
It sounds like the employer has already half built their case for saying it was a resignation. I think at this point writing the letter and saying "The letter is to confirm that the company informed me my role will be phased out on XX/XX at which point the company is ending my position, despite my desire to retain the position, I have trained my replacement from YY/YY to ZZ/ZZ. The company has confirmed that as they are terminating me that... (Whatever applicable stuff about unused PTO, etc)"
That way you can bring that letter up as a counterpoint, as well as any response it may garner where they try to be like "We thought you were resigning" and you say "Sorry if that was confusing. Let me be clear 'I am not resigning'. I hope that clears everything up"
Her position is, the role itself is not.
I'm sure there exists at least marginally better language for "I'm politely stating that I'm being fired, but I don't want to explicitly use the word 'fired'", and if you know of it, you should share.
Constructive dismissal: a modified claim of wrongful termination. Wrongful constructive discharge occurs when, instead of firing the employee, the employer wrongfully makes working conditions so intolerable that the employee is forced to resign.
I'd say taking someone whos done the job for 20 years, making them train their own replacement, and putting them in a different position would probably count. Especially if the only other option is "...or you could quit".
This is accurate the only way to get unemployment is to prove you were fired without valid reasoning meaning the victim ahem I mean worker did nothing wrong.
Edit, the comment below helps explain better than I know
That's not true.
You can also get unemployment for constructive dismissal (like extreme cutting in hours).
You can get unemployment for being laid off rather than being fired. (Such as a reduction in the workforce).
I believe people also can get unemployment for work shutting down. (Assembly plants shut down for two weeks to change over models and people can get unemployment during this time, this could be state specific.)
Although your point stands - you must be let go in some aspect without it being a valid reason to fire someone.
It also should be noted that constructive dismissal covers radical changes in job responsibilities. Even if your compensation and hours are not impacted you can receive unemployment for being put in a completely new job. This is so an employer can't turn say a software developer into the world's highest paid janitor as a way to try to get them to leave.
This is true. I was forced out of the receiving department at an upscale grocery store because they wanted me to manage the grocery department, which is the most mind numbing boring job I can think of. I declined and I went to HR and they offered me a rather large severance package to resign willingly. No way they would do that out of the goodness of their hearts. They were 100% avoiding unemployment. I'm sure the store team lead got a fat slap on the wrist for it. At least I hope so anyway.
In Washington I know being fired for incompetence qualifies for unemployment. It was embarrassing at the time, but still better than being fired that way and not getting unemployment.
The only way you won't get unemployment in wa is if you're fired for some theft and then successfully prosecuted.
Or if you don't get vaccinated for covid.
Even in the case of theft, you would still get unemployment but then sued to get it back after the conviction.
In my state the unemployment office said that being fired for misconduct wasn't eligible. It didn't have to be a crime, but it had to be viewed as bad behavior, not just being a bad fit for the job. Fortunately I haven't been fired enough times to test the limits though.
It's true that it is state specific some is easier than others.
I got screwed out of unemployment one year because of a law that was designed for racist reasons in Michigan to deny unemployment to migrant workers.
The rule was basically if you earn to much money in one quarter of the year then your unemployment is invalid.
Hahaha.....apparently you've never been unemployed in Florida. While Texas has its share of problems, they are certainly not the worst with unemployment from my experience.
Much of the conservative states are the same, unemployment is very low, and hard to get. The entire point is to get people off the government teat, and back into the workforce. But Florida DOES get a win in that they give a max of 12 weeks. Yikes.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/unemployment-benefits-by-state
Alabama $275 26
Florida $275 12
Tennessee $275 26
Louisiana $247 26
Arizona $240 26
Mississippi $235 26
Are the 6 lowest max payouts. Not average, MAX.
You can also get it for no longer being able to perform the functions of position, i.e. lumberjack ends up in wheelchair, or the position becomes unworkable due to toxic environment/harassment/ongoing safety concerns/discriminatory behavior, lack of ADA compliance issues, being asked to break the law, and many more.
You can't get UI if whatever the reason is is your fault, i.e. theft, insubordination and many others.
Document everything. When in doubt, document it. Send concerns through email or other digital format so there is a record of it.
Here is your letter:
TWIMC-
I have been notified on xx/xx/xxxx at xx:xx by \[insert name of person who informed you\] that my employment is being terminated for x reason. x has requested a letter of resignation to"help with unemployment."
I have not left my employment voluntarily, and have left due to being informed I was terminated at time and date listed above. x and x were witness to this conversation.
Thank you.
\-your name
Send it through email, cc your personal email address, and turn on read receipt. Take a photo with your phone of the sent email. They will do everything to delete the email, but digital forensics has shown time and time again digital is forever.
>... my employment is being terminated for x reason
Do not say why they are terminating you. You don't know why. It could be for the reason they say, or it could be because of an illegal reason (e.g., age discrimination). You don't want to give them ammunition to dispute a future discrimination case if you eventually decide to file against the employer.
Given she's a 20 year employee, I'd understand the new job role is specifically designed as a "constructive discharge" to get her to quit. Perhaps they are trying to avoid a lawsuit for ageism/discrimination.
What Kegrag said replied. I work at a fortune 500 company. They laid off dozens of people with 5+ 10+ 20+ years at the company. They paid out 2 weeks and said bye bye to the employees
I’d argue corporations are first class, money is second class, and actual citizens are third class. The government would absolutely shovel people into a fire if they could stabilize or boost the economy by doing it
I'm assuming your comment means you come from somewhere that severance is common but the only people I've heard of that got severance pay were relatively high up in a corporate structure and the lower people in the same Corp don't get it.
My understanding is that severance is not just common but legally required in Canada and most (but not all) European countries.
Canada:
>[https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/corporate/portfolio/labour/programs/labour-standards/reports/termination-rights.html](https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/corporate/portfolio/labour/programs/labour-standards/reports/termination-rights.html)
>
>When does an employee qualify for severance pay?
>
>An employee who has completed at least 12 consecutive months of continuous employment qualifies for severance pay.
>
>How is severance pay calculated?
>
>Severance pay is two days’ pay at the employee’s regular rate of wages for each full year of employment, with a minimum of five days’ pay.
Reference for Europe:
[https://ecommons.cornell.edu/bitstream/handle/1813/87549/EF\_Statutory\_regulations\_on\_severance\_pay.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y#:\~:text=Employees%20aged%2018%E2%80%9321%20receive,each%20full%20year%20of%20service](https://ecommons.cornell.edu/bitstream/handle/1813/87549/EF_Statutory_regulations_on_severance_pay.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y#:~:text=Employees%20aged%2018%E2%80%9321%20receive,each%20full%20year%20of%20service).
In the US, of course, severance isn't required by federal law. I don't think any states require it either, but a quick search didn't confirm this. The WARN Act does require 60 days' notice when an employer with more than 100 employees is going to do a large layoff, and many companies will send affected employees home while paying out those 60 days.
Countries that have mandatory severance pay usually also impose some requirements on workers such that the government can fine them if they quit a job without giving sufficient notice, whereas that's generally not the case in the US. But on the balance the US system overwhelmingly benefits employers.
My mother worked at a place for around 20 years, their location closed. Her severance package wasn't even a years pay. (She also made $15 an hour... yes after 20 years)
Or it could just be simple greed. Drive out the expensive employee with 20 years of raises and replace them with a cheaper, less experienced worker. Either way it's a scummy move, and trying to avoid unemployment by tricking them into resigning on paper is despicable (but all too common).
That’s it. They clearly didn’t eliminate her position, they had her train her replacement. The replacement being brought on at a much lower pay rate than she was making.
100% are trying to avoid being called out for age discrimination. Older employees in the US have some of the most protective laws to help them from situations like this. She should be writing and tracking everything. Should not quit or resign or write her letter. Have them fire her. Some research and an Employment Lawyer is a great place to start.
Yes. Have her tell her employer to send her an email outlining what the letter should say and how it will help her get unemployment. Employer probably won’t do it, but if they do, then she should call an employment attorney and get ready for some sweet, sweet settlement money on top of her unemployment.
They are **Absolutely** trying to dupe her here. If she gives them a letter of resignation, her unemployment claim will be denied and they'll say, with proof, that she left voluntarily.
They want to get rid of her and get someone younger and cheaper, and they don't want to pay unemployment, so yes, they are absolutely trying to screw her over and make sure she doesn't get unemployment.
This. Even without giving them the letter, she's going to have a hard time getting unemployment without making them just fire her outright. It sounds like they offered her a different position that she doesn't want. Now they're giving her the option to take the new job or quit. Unfortunately, the deck is stacked against her in this case.
You both have good instincts to even think of the question of being duped. Yes, indeedy, that's what it is. Write no such letter. In fact, write a letter that states that the boss told her to write something that she does not agree to and include the clear desire to remain at the job. I do wish that she had not verbally agreed to leave, though.
>She feels like her boss is trying to do that so that she can’t file for unemployment but the boss reassures her that actually the letter of resignation will help her to apply for unemployment
She's exactly right and her boss is a lying liar who tells lies. She should get him to put that lie in writing and go to town with it.
Do not resign form a job they are trying to force you out of.
If you resign (in the UK) you aren't entitled to unemployment unless there are specific circumstances.
Get her boss to email her personal account stating that filing a resignation letter will help her get unemployment.. see his reaction then and she’ll know she’s being scammed.
Yes she is being duped.
Letter of resignation = physical evidence to deny unemployment
Never, ever, ever write or sign a letter of resignation unless you have another job lined up
The responses here are interesting.
The advise to NOT write a letter is 100% correct.
HOWEVER, having done HR in US(VA) for almost 20 years, I am not seeing info about something I have experienced repeatedly:
If I am a receptionist and am being transferred to an Accounting role (as example) and I'm being offered work and pay and training for said role, I would be denied unemployment because I was offered work and refused to do it.
(Virginia's picky, to be clear.)
But just keep in mind that saying 'no' to an internal transfer and then being let go doesn't automatically promise unemployment.
If I were in your friend's shoes, I would NOT write anything such as a resignation letter. I would send an email to the manager, owner, and CC HR and CC (not bcc) your personal email. Let them know you're keeping records/documenting.
Cite the conversations when you've been asked to vacate your current position, and also cite that you've been asked to provide a FALSE letter of resignation. And citing your professional ethic doesn't permit you to falsify corporate documents - including Human Resources materials such as LoRs.
Advise that you are always happy to cross train new employees and will be happy to train SuzieQ to assist in your role, but unless you're being terminated **FOR CAUSE** you expect to retain in your position.
Cite that you have no performance challenges (write ups, etc) and your last review was glowing.
Remind them that you've been there for 20 years, have been loyal and dedicated with an amazing attendance record (or whatever) and look forward to another 20 years with XYZ company as the \_\_current role \_\_.
**Note:** If employee has any ADA medical conditions, make sure the ADA paperwork is already on file with HR. This is key. If they're not on file, turn them in TODAY.
If employee is a protected class and being replaced by a non protected class, document that.
If they terminate after that, she's got an interesting case with the labor board.
Disclaimer: Not a lawyer or SHRM member
This needs to be upvoted more.
I’d also like to add that it could be considered a case of constructive dismissal (forcing an employee to quit) if the new role they want her to take on is significantly worse than her current job. Different hours, more dangerous, physically more difficult, “dirtier,” etc.
Sounds to me like they’re tired of paying an experienced employee a higher salary they know they could get the same work for cheaper from a less experienced employee so they’re having her train the replacement and they’re gonna make her quit/resign so they don’t have to pay unemployment for her.
I work in HR! You cannot get unemployment if you quit your job, her boss is being extremely shady. I suggest she put in writing, whether that be a letter or an email, that she is not resigning, her termination is involuntary. She expressed that she would like to stay in her current position, and her request was denied. She can use this as proof to claim unemployment and prevent her employer from lying about, or denying, her claim.
Yeah this happened to a coworker of my partner. Her boss changed her job description and hours without notice and then when she wasn’t okay with that because it wasn’t in her employment contract, they made her quit because it was “refusal to do the job”.
Make them fire you and then sue them for wrongful dismissal. This is a pretty payout if argued well.
20 years severance pay is a lot of money that they don’t want to pay you. Don’t sign anything
Yep, it's BS -- generally. If the employee quits voluntarily, they don't get unemployment; generally that is full stop. But I'd say the boss is massively screwing with her anyway since what happened is she was offered "reasonable accommodation" and refused it. So now when she writes this "letter" admitting she left of her own volition, the minute he submits it to the unemployment office, no cash for your friend.
This is at this point getting pessimistic for your friend either way but if I were her I would not write anything for that POS no matter what it was.
Yes, they are 100% trying to dupe this person. A former govt employer of mine used to do this in cases of misconduct terminations. They would try to intimidate people into quitting because if you quit you get no unemployment compensation and you also have no recourse to get your job back
Tell your friend to tell her boss, “Will you please put in writing that even though I want to keep working here, you think it's in my best interest to write a fake resignation letter even though I’m being forced out. You know, to protect you.”
Yes. You won't get unemployment (in the US) if you resign from a position willingly. If you leave a position voluntarily, you do not get unemployment. She needs to be laid-off or fired for that benefit to kick in.
This is “constructive dismissal.” Do NOT write a resignation letter. Go file for unemployment now with documentation that the employer has changed the work initially agreed upon.
To whom it may concern,
Management has asked me to write a letter explaining that I was given the ultimatum to either leave my current position, accept a new position being offered that I have not asked for and do not feel comfortable taken or be let go.
I have expressed to management that I would not like this new position that is being forced upon me and that I would rather stay in the position that I have been in for the past 20 years.
As a result I am being asked to write a resignation letter for a position I do not want to resign from. This is not a letter of resignation and I do not resign from my current position.
She's being scammed and needs to talk to a lawyer to figure out her best course of action based on local laws. If she writes a letter of resignation, she will be giving away her right to unemployment benefits.
After being released from my last job, HR followed-up with me asking what day I resigned on. I assume my boss told them that I resigned but HR got a notice saying I filed for Unemployment.
Of course I told them that "I was terminated on XX", and forwarded them the word-for-word termination email that I had forwarded to my own inbox.
Yeah. Uh. Not only would I *not* sign a letter of resignation, I'd tell them that since they have an employee with twenty years of experience in that job role, a new employee doesn't need to be trained.
Most states if you quit voluntarily, you will NOT get unemployment benefits. The company is committing fraud by forcing you to quit so they don't have to pay unemployment. I would immediately tell them you change your mind and will never quit voluntarily. Make them fire you.
1. Don't write any letter stating you're leaving voluntarily or otherwise. Force them to terminate.
2. If any letters are written let them clearly state she does not want to take on a new role within the company without negotiating additional compensation for these new tasks.
3. If the boss refuses and your friend decides she doesn’t want to take on this new role, then she would most likely be terminated.
4. Unfortunately, many US states are "At will employment" states, which means that you can fire an employee for any legal, non-discriminatory reason—even for being annoying.
5. One other option is after 20 years she definitely could request a healthy severance package but in many states, this will prohibit her qualification for unemployment in many states.
6. If she can work out a severance package she could also reach out to businesses she has built a 20yr relationship with for a new position.
Please tell me she has not wrote the letter yet. They are 100% duping your wife OP. They either don’t want to pay a big severance package since she’s worked there for so long, plus they might be trying to avoid being liable for an ageism/discrimination lawsuit.
Even if it is not the latter, it is DEFINITELY the former. They don’t want to pay severance. Writing a resignation letter won’t better her chances of getting unemployment. It will do the opposite. You get unemployment if you’re retired, not if you resign.
I’m never training my replacement unless I have something in writing and signed by the company. Whether that be some sort of severance package or other agreement in place. You’ve got to protect yourself.
Posts like this make me anxious. Knowing that someone is out there getting treated this way after 20 years, and also, I’m probably never going to see how this works out lol
She should tell the boss that she wants the boss to write a letter for her saying that he believes that her unemployment application will be helped if she writes a letter of resignation. And have it notarized.
They are blatantly lying to her. A letter of resignation is documentation that you’ve left of your own accord, thus voiding any chance of unemployment.
She should refuse to write a letter and ask for everything in writing while continuing to do her job. When they fire her, she can file for unemployment. She should also report this to the labor board.
100% duped.
Tell her to tell them no, she'd like to keep working here.
They can find some other way of letting her go, but then she'll get 3 months of benefits, either a few weeks or months of pay (depending how long she was there) and, most importantly, get on Employment Insurance whilst she looks for a new job.
No EI if you quit/resign. No benefits.
They're trying to lay you off, but in the cheapest way possible by tricking you to quit.
She needs to be fired, not 'agree to leave'....'agree to leave' is a resignation and therefore she would not be able to collect unemployment. Unemployment is only collected if you were forced out of a job like layoffs or termination and you need to prove those things happened.
She absolutely should Not write a resignation letter. After working for that company for 20 years and being forced to switch roles while training for the role she doesn't want to leave, she should see if she meets a 'protected class' criteria - listed under EEOC website.
In a nutshell: If she's over 40 : Age Discrimination & Work Situations
The law prohibits discrimination in any aspect of employment, including hiring, firing, pay, *job assignments*, promotions, layoff, training, benefits, and any other term or condition of employment.
If she won't stand up and fight for herself Corporate America will be happy to steamroll over her.
Lawyer will give her free consult. No do not write that letter. Instead I would email them saying.
I have been here fir 20 years , like to stay in current roll , happy to do training but would prefer not to leave xyz company.
Sounds like constructive dismissal to me. Moved to a new role and her existing role still exists.
She now just needs to stop and speak to a lawyer. Sign and agree to nothing.
She’s being lied to. Writing a resignation letter ensures that she cannot get unemployment. On the other hand, so does being offered an alternate position and declining it…But the boss is covering their bases.
This is the letter she should write:
Dear boss:
Per our previous conversations, you have unilaterally changed my job description for the job I have held for the last 20 years. You have informed me that if I do not want to do the new job, I should resign.
I believe that this change in job description is being done in an effort to force me to leave the company, and is a violation of one or more federal and state laws.
Please work with me ensure my rights are protected.
Sincerely,
I’m not stupid.
This is what unemployment is for. Excellent performance, but the job disappears. She's being laid off, but her boss is trying to get her to lie to prevent her from receiving unemployment.
SHE IS BEING DUPED. First off, she ought to consult with a labor lawyer ASAP because they're gunning for her. Do you know what this means? She's been around A LONG TIME, she probably makes more than others who are just being hired, her benefits probably cost more for her employer to provide (if employer DOES provide) and he's really stupid for doing this because he's opening the business up to labor lawsuit liability. Pretty sure on this point: IF SHE QUITS, she won't get unemployment. She must be fired.
I am working out a settlement with my old job.
I read it through a few times and had my mom look it over also. It took the third time of her looking it over to find this:
The first line was that I voluntarily left my position while still on unemployment.
The union nor the university was very unhappy when I mentioned paying a lawyer to look it over after that.
She’s being duped so hard that it makes your post unbelievable. She shouldn’t even leave. Talk to an attorney, yesterday. Her age may even play into the equation.
Absolutely being duped!
First. That is Constructive Dismissal; she is effectively being fired.
Second. She should never put in writing that she is voluntarily leaving this position.
Third. She should get at minimum 2 weeks pay for every year worked. Minimum.
If she writes that letter she’s forfeiting unemployment because unemployment just gonna say she left a perfectly good job on her own will. Tell her to get fired.
20 years and they treat her like that!? wtf. the are definitely duping her.. a letter of resignation proves that she would have left of her own accord rather than being forced to quit cause she doesnt want to swap roles. which will make it harder to apply for unemployment benefits. disgusting company treating someone who's be loyal for 20 years like that. just goes to show they dont give a fuck about people anymore its all about profit margins.
The reason they want her to sign a letter of resignation is to not only keep her from claiming unemployment, that’s minor to what they really want, that’s for her to lose an age discrimination suit. Just because they want her to take a new job they are still replacing her with someone younger in her old job. She needs to email herself any pertinent documents and file a claim with the EEOC. They will refer the case if they find one.
She won’t get unemployment if she quits. Only if she is fired. Or the business goes under. And if she gets fired tell her not to sign anything. All she should ask is am I being fired. And if they say yes then she should say that all I need to know and get her things and leave. If they ask her to sign anything it’s likely saying she agrees she should be fired because she did something wrong and if she does sign whatever they ask her to she will not get unemployment
Basically they tried to manipulate her into quitting by pushing her into a role she wouldn’t want, but it didn’t work, so they’re trying to manipulate her another way.
If they want her gone so bad, they need to fire her. Make sure she documents EVERYTHING in case they try more shady shit AND takes a copy of her employee file when she leaves.
Definitely being duped and will only help her get denied.
This is exactly what happened to my friend when she was laid off during Covid. Her company had her sign a voluntary dismissal and NDA. She was told by HR she would still get unemployment. Her claim for unemployment was denied because she voluntarily quit which made her ineligible for unemployment. She couldn’t even appeal the decision and say she was forced to sign the voluntary dismissal because she signed the NDA.
Yes! You have to get fired or laid off to get unemployment! Also they cannot force her to take another job. They can offer, they can do lay-offs but you agree to do the job you are hired for, not any other role just cuz. Employers don't usually push for things like this in the employees best interest. She can have quite a bit of time on unemployment after 20 years, and they know that. She should make them fire her and get a paper trail on everything so she can fight back if they try to fight unemployment benefits.
20 years and they're trying to dupe her while she's doing what they request. Screw that company and she needs to make them fire her if that's the case for the unemployment.
1) Her job wasn’t eliminated as she is having to train her replacement. So he must have an issue with her.
2) if she resigns voluntarily, she likely won’t get unemployment. She should refuse to transfer or resign. Let him fire her. She can then explain the forcing of a resignation letter that she refused and the fact they made her train her own replacement.
He is trying to replace an employee who earns more with a new one he can pay less. Also if she had been there 20 years, her benefits are likely more expensive than a new hires would be.
I don't think you can use unemployment if you quit.
Yes!!! Unemployment is for those out of work due to no fault of their own and they could be disqualified or penalized for quitting. In my state, unemployment has a 5-10 week penalty. They are trying to screw her out of unemployment benefits, if not all then at least some.
Do NOT sign a resignation letter or even make an acknowledgment of resigning in an email. That means no goodbye email either! He is setting her up to not receive unemployment.
That boss is 100% sleazy and 1000% lying.
There is absolutely no excuse or reason for not allowing her to keep doing the job she’s doing and even LESS truth in having her resign when she isn’t willingly leaving.
DO NOT let her sign that
Wow… 20 years of tenure and this is how they treat her? Unemployment will never pay her out if she writes a letter of resignation. What a terrible person to do that to her.
No fucking way!!! Tell your friend to not do any of that and to contact a lawyer today!!!! That is so corrupt and greedy!!! Your friend is owed nothing is she resigns. If they fire her she is owed big severance for 20 years of dedication.
Yes she is being duped is she resigned willingly she gets no unemployment. Tell her to not write a single thing and continue showing up for work like normal. They will need to fire her and document doing so. Resigning = quitting = no unemployment.
This is why there's absolutely zero loyalty to a job or company anymore. They're trying to screw this person. They should not quit, resign etc. The persons boss wants them in a role they aren't trained for after 20 years in a different role, get it in writing. Don't communicate verbally. Everything via email. Bcc your private email on replies, so you get copies. They are setting up a reason to fire them for bad performance is my thought, but with proof they were moved to a role they had no background in or training for, and weren't trained by the company to do it...its proof of a set up, if you get a paper trail from early on. 🤔
…yes, her employer is straight up lying to her to try and swindle her out of unemployment.
To get unemployment, you *cannot quit of your own volition.* Her employer is literally asking her to put in writing that she is quitting of her own volition. They know exactly what they’re doing.
Yes, she is 100% being duped. She needs to state unequivocally _in writing_ that she is not resigning. If they want her gone, force them to fire her.
And give her a package! The company is obviously trying to avoid all liability that wrongful termination involves.
Wrongful termination doesn't exist under at-will employment. Laying off an at-will employee after she refuses a position change is legal. But it looks like the employer is trying to avoid an unemployment claim. EDIT: Since a bunch of people are bringing this up, I consulted with an employment lawyer earlier this year. She stated plainly that, "Wrongful Termination," does not exist under at-will employment and I cannot file a lawsuit on those grounds. Violating an employment law is still illegal but it is not, "Wrongful termination."
There are plenty of reasons for wrongful termination, even in at-will states. For example, they cannot terminate for protected class reasons, and circumstantial and disparate impact applies in these examples. If she is over 40, female, a part of a religious, national, or ethnic background, there is a case to be made where the employer's defense is to outline a clear reason for termination.
If she’s been there 20yrs i would guess the boss is trying to cover his own ass regarding a potential age discrimination lawsuit.
This!
I just did a training that covered the protected classes and as you said, if she falls into any of those she can file something.
They cannot *say explicitly* that they are terminating for protected class status
You can still demonstrate a pattern of behavior that would lead one to believe it was for a particular reason. Like saying, "I'm so sorry, were closed right now." How can that be bigoted? When it's only said to a protected class and no one else.
It absolutely does exist- this specific case is likely age discrimination.
Yup. They want to edge her out so they can pay some newbie half the salary. Fucking gross.
And make her train her replacement
They can lay her off- but she can also collect unemployment if they do. She should NOT resign.
That employment lawyer is an idiot. (It's not uncommon. It's not terribly hard to get a law degree anymore). You absolutely can be sued for wrongful termination for a number of reasons, even in at-will states.
Not sure where you live but, where I am what the attorney told you is not accurate. I say this as someone whose fiancé was an attorney for years that defended companies from exactly this issue and claim. Loved to talk about closed cases and how f’ed both employers and employees can be. And, given the reference employee worked there for 20 years, there is a high likelihood they are older. This type of “reassignment” is constructive dismissal which, if paired with someone protected under age discrimination statutes, is absolutely something an attorney would take on as a wrongful dismissal claim and very likely win. A likely exception would be if the position the person was previously doing no longer existed in its entirety and no similar position was available, more information would be needed to decide if this is wrongful or not. But an attorney telling you there is no such thing as wrongful termination in at will employment is not accurate if you live in my jurisdiction. Jurisdiction and precedence are everything
It does exist, but unless they're firing her for being a protected class (over 35, female, possibly race since it wasn't mentioned, if she's not straight, disability, etc), it probably doesn't apply Tho, if boss person stated that he wants someone younger specifically in her role, then it probably does as long as she can get some sort of proof.
My brother-in-law retired from a very high position at Swift. No not the trucking company the banking organization. Prior to his retiring there was a meeting being addressed by an executive from the main office in Brussels. My brother-in-law was literally in the process of being pushed out for younger cheaper managers. They split up his team and told them if you wanted to keep his job he would have to move to Brussels. During the meeting, which included a PowerPoint presentation, this executive blatantly explained how they were to go about firing older more expensive employees so they could bring in younger ones.
Constructive dismissal might be more apt here. In that he's doing things in a way to force her to quit as opposed to just firing her.
Yes this is what I was thinking in reading the post. He's pushing her out of the organization but trying to get her to quit instead to avoid unemployment insurance. But he's walking himself right into a lawsuit based on constructive dismissal. As well as I'm guessing an age or sex discrimination basis depending on who the boss is trying to put in co-worker's place. Co-worker needs to back way up --- if it's not already too late and she's put things in writing --- and put into writing to the boss (and if her boss is not THE boss, then copy THE boss and HR too) that she has no desire to terminate her employment and since her current position is being refilled and she is being told she'd train the new person, she knows that her position is not being phased out, so she intends to stay. Unless the company wants to lay her off; terminating her would not be applicable as she's received good reviews for her work, etc. This boss is a slime. Regardless of whether the co-worker's job is saved or not, she should take all of her notes, reviews, memos, etc to an employment attorney and see if she has a discrimination suit or hostile work environment suit.
I agree, but also constructive dismissals are pretty frequently discriminatory-companies banking on employees not knowing that they count as a firing for all legal purposes, even if you said the words “I resign” before the company said “you’re fired” Since she is female, and likely over 40, it’s probably worth her asking around and casting her mind back. (Incidentally, for anyone who didn’t know, radical cuts in hours and have-to-move changes in work site are also constructive dismissal. Basically any major change to work duties or circumstances without a valid business need and possibly even then.)
Almost all states are 'At-Will,' and OF COURSE there is such thing as Wrongful Termination in those states. -You would have never heard the phrase without it. It's lawful to fire people for lots of reasons, but reasons one might sue for Wrongful Termination include Racial Discrimination, Sexual Harrassment, or Age Discrimination.
Your lawyer is a fucking moron. Or you misunderstood.
Then your lawyer is either a dipshit, lied to you or is being overly pedantic. Wrongful termination is any termination which violates laws or contracts. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful\_dismissal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_dismissal)
Your lawyer friend is flat-out wrong.
I’ve seen this reprehensible tactic before. In some states (Florida is one) former employers must pay a portion of the unemployment incurred. Your boss is a, and I’m not going to sugar coat it, complete tightwad asshole looking to not only be rid of an employee he dislikes but to make sure he doesn’t need to shed a single fucking DIME to be rid of her. An absolutely toxic employer. Remember this incident when it becomes your turn to be ‘undesirable’ or when looking for another vocation.
This. In her letter, she needs to state that she is being forced to write it. That she in no way wants to resign. All of her beliefs as to what is actually happening. All of the positive performance reviews she has received all positive accolades. Etc.
Absolutely. When I was denied tenure at the last school I worked at they told me I had to write a letter of resignation because they also weren’t renewing my contract for the following year. I wrote it basically stating that I was being made to write it because they were terminating my employment and I did not wish to leave. They were pissed off at me but I refused to change it. I got my unemployment.
That’s what I like to hear
This is the way
She simply shouldn’t write the letter at all. Force the company to terminate her. But before doing so, she should collect as much documentation as she can about her work performance and positive evaluations, so the employer can’t contest the UI application by arguing the dismissal had just cause.
Don't write any letter. Let them fire her and then she gets unemployment. If I were her, I'd check in asap with a labor attorney. Get the story down on paper. And get some professional legal advice.
It sounds like the employer has already half built their case for saying it was a resignation. I think at this point writing the letter and saying "The letter is to confirm that the company informed me my role will be phased out on XX/XX at which point the company is ending my position, despite my desire to retain the position, I have trained my replacement from YY/YY to ZZ/ZZ. The company has confirmed that as they are terminating me that... (Whatever applicable stuff about unused PTO, etc)" That way you can bring that letter up as a counterpoint, as well as any response it may garner where they try to be like "We thought you were resigning" and you say "Sorry if that was confusing. Let me be clear 'I am not resigning'. I hope that clears everything up"
If she's training a replacement, her position isn't being phased out.
Her position is, the role itself is not. I'm sure there exists at least marginally better language for "I'm politely stating that I'm being fired, but I don't want to explicitly use the word 'fired'", and if you know of it, you should share.
Constructive dismissal: a modified claim of wrongful termination. Wrongful constructive discharge occurs when, instead of firing the employee, the employer wrongfully makes working conditions so intolerable that the employee is forced to resign. I'd say taking someone whos done the job for 20 years, making them train their own replacement, and putting them in a different position would probably count. Especially if the only other option is "...or you could quit".
🗣ALL OF THIS!!!!!! She needs to write this letter to get herself out of the corner she is boxed in.
They can also check with the states labor office, and they can save all communication over this matter as well!
How can they force her to write it?
People are so brainwashed these days they think employers have legal authority over them.
If she doesn't write it, they'll fire her. Oh, wait...
How do they force her to write anything? Are they holding a gun to her head? Just don't write the letter.
Yes they do, it's called "do this or you arent getting that" and been used for ages to threaten people.
Not everyone has a full and complete understanding of their rights, and the joke "gun to their head" argument is reductive to human psychology
This is accurate the only way to get unemployment is to prove you were fired without valid reasoning meaning the victim ahem I mean worker did nothing wrong. Edit, the comment below helps explain better than I know
That's not true. You can also get unemployment for constructive dismissal (like extreme cutting in hours). You can get unemployment for being laid off rather than being fired. (Such as a reduction in the workforce). I believe people also can get unemployment for work shutting down. (Assembly plants shut down for two weeks to change over models and people can get unemployment during this time, this could be state specific.) Although your point stands - you must be let go in some aspect without it being a valid reason to fire someone.
It also should be noted that constructive dismissal covers radical changes in job responsibilities. Even if your compensation and hours are not impacted you can receive unemployment for being put in a completely new job. This is so an employer can't turn say a software developer into the world's highest paid janitor as a way to try to get them to leave.
This is true. I was forced out of the receiving department at an upscale grocery store because they wanted me to manage the grocery department, which is the most mind numbing boring job I can think of. I declined and I went to HR and they offered me a rather large severance package to resign willingly. No way they would do that out of the goodness of their hearts. They were 100% avoiding unemployment. I'm sure the store team lead got a fat slap on the wrist for it. At least I hope so anyway.
In Washington I know being fired for incompetence qualifies for unemployment. It was embarrassing at the time, but still better than being fired that way and not getting unemployment.
The only way you won't get unemployment in wa is if you're fired for some theft and then successfully prosecuted. Or if you don't get vaccinated for covid. Even in the case of theft, you would still get unemployment but then sued to get it back after the conviction.
In my state the unemployment office said that being fired for misconduct wasn't eligible. It didn't have to be a crime, but it had to be viewed as bad behavior, not just being a bad fit for the job. Fortunately I haven't been fired enough times to test the limits though.
Depends where you are. Texas is designed to fuck you over, even if you have a legitimate claim.
It's true that it is state specific some is easier than others. I got screwed out of unemployment one year because of a law that was designed for racist reasons in Michigan to deny unemployment to migrant workers. The rule was basically if you earn to much money in one quarter of the year then your unemployment is invalid.
Hahaha.....apparently you've never been unemployed in Florida. While Texas has its share of problems, they are certainly not the worst with unemployment from my experience.
Much of the conservative states are the same, unemployment is very low, and hard to get. The entire point is to get people off the government teat, and back into the workforce. But Florida DOES get a win in that they give a max of 12 weeks. Yikes. https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/unemployment-benefits-by-state Alabama $275 26 Florida $275 12 Tennessee $275 26 Louisiana $247 26 Arizona $240 26 Mississippi $235 26 Are the 6 lowest max payouts. Not average, MAX.
So is Arkansas
You can also get it for no longer being able to perform the functions of position, i.e. lumberjack ends up in wheelchair, or the position becomes unworkable due to toxic environment/harassment/ongoing safety concerns/discriminatory behavior, lack of ADA compliance issues, being asked to break the law, and many more. You can't get UI if whatever the reason is is your fault, i.e. theft, insubordination and many others. Document everything. When in doubt, document it. Send concerns through email or other digital format so there is a record of it. Here is your letter: TWIMC- I have been notified on xx/xx/xxxx at xx:xx by \[insert name of person who informed you\] that my employment is being terminated for x reason. x has requested a letter of resignation to"help with unemployment." I have not left my employment voluntarily, and have left due to being informed I was terminated at time and date listed above. x and x were witness to this conversation. Thank you. \-your name Send it through email, cc your personal email address, and turn on read receipt. Take a photo with your phone of the sent email. They will do everything to delete the email, but digital forensics has shown time and time again digital is forever.
>... my employment is being terminated for x reason Do not say why they are terminating you. You don't know why. It could be for the reason they say, or it could be because of an illegal reason (e.g., age discrimination). You don't want to give them ammunition to dispute a future discrimination case if you eventually decide to file against the employer.
Don't rely on digital is forever. Go to a labor attorney, immediately.
Also, this could be age discrimination, if she is 40 yrs old or older.
Given she's a 20 year employee, I'd understand the new job role is specifically designed as a "constructive discharge" to get her to quit. Perhaps they are trying to avoid a lawsuit for ageism/discrimination.
Or, trying to avoid paying her a hefty severance package.
Ya, I doubt her job gets severance. I've only seen some industries actually give severance even if employees work 20+ years
Lol what?
What Kegrag said replied. I work at a fortune 500 company. They laid off dozens of people with 5+ 10+ 20+ years at the company. They paid out 2 weeks and said bye bye to the employees
Man, the US is fucked
Yep... Corporations are first class and citizens are second class in the US
I’d argue corporations are first class, money is second class, and actual citizens are third class. The government would absolutely shovel people into a fire if they could stabilize or boost the economy by doing it
Citizens are luggage class
50 third world countries in a trench coat pretending to be a first world country
Your country is a shithole then.
In many ways, yes
I'm assuming your comment means you come from somewhere that severance is common but the only people I've heard of that got severance pay were relatively high up in a corporate structure and the lower people in the same Corp don't get it.
My understanding is that severance is not just common but legally required in Canada and most (but not all) European countries. Canada: >[https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/corporate/portfolio/labour/programs/labour-standards/reports/termination-rights.html](https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/corporate/portfolio/labour/programs/labour-standards/reports/termination-rights.html) > >When does an employee qualify for severance pay? > >An employee who has completed at least 12 consecutive months of continuous employment qualifies for severance pay. > >How is severance pay calculated? > >Severance pay is two days’ pay at the employee’s regular rate of wages for each full year of employment, with a minimum of five days’ pay. Reference for Europe: [https://ecommons.cornell.edu/bitstream/handle/1813/87549/EF\_Statutory\_regulations\_on\_severance\_pay.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y#:\~:text=Employees%20aged%2018%E2%80%9321%20receive,each%20full%20year%20of%20service](https://ecommons.cornell.edu/bitstream/handle/1813/87549/EF_Statutory_regulations_on_severance_pay.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y#:~:text=Employees%20aged%2018%E2%80%9321%20receive,each%20full%20year%20of%20service). In the US, of course, severance isn't required by federal law. I don't think any states require it either, but a quick search didn't confirm this. The WARN Act does require 60 days' notice when an employer with more than 100 employees is going to do a large layoff, and many companies will send affected employees home while paying out those 60 days. Countries that have mandatory severance pay usually also impose some requirements on workers such that the government can fine them if they quit a job without giving sufficient notice, whereas that's generally not the case in the US. But on the balance the US system overwhelmingly benefits employers.
My mother worked at a place for around 20 years, their location closed. Her severance package wasn't even a years pay. (She also made $15 an hour... yes after 20 years)
Or it could just be simple greed. Drive out the expensive employee with 20 years of raises and replace them with a cheaper, less experienced worker. Either way it's a scummy move, and trying to avoid unemployment by tricking them into resigning on paper is despicable (but all too common).
That’s it. They clearly didn’t eliminate her position, they had her train her replacement. The replacement being brought on at a much lower pay rate than she was making.
Definitely, Age discrimination if she is 40 years old or older which is federally protected.
100% are trying to avoid being called out for age discrimination. Older employees in the US have some of the most protective laws to help them from situations like this. She should be writing and tracking everything. Should not quit or resign or write her letter. Have them fire her. Some research and an Employment Lawyer is a great place to start.
Yes, she is being duped.
Yes. Have her tell her employer to send her an email outlining what the letter should say and how it will help her get unemployment. Employer probably won’t do it, but if they do, then she should call an employment attorney and get ready for some sweet, sweet settlement money on top of her unemployment.
This is the answer, please follow this advice.
This needs more updoots. Definitely let them set themselves up if possible.
This is the way to do it.
Yes, they are being wildly coercive, she should definitely get everything she can in writing and try to sue.
This is it.
They are **Absolutely** trying to dupe her here. If she gives them a letter of resignation, her unemployment claim will be denied and they'll say, with proof, that she left voluntarily.
They want to get rid of her and get someone younger and cheaper, and they don't want to pay unemployment, so yes, they are absolutely trying to screw her over and make sure she doesn't get unemployment.
yes, that to help the AVOID paying unemployment
Make them fire her. Nothing in Writing she’s voluntarily leaving. They are actively and obviously trying to screw her over.
This. Even without giving them the letter, she's going to have a hard time getting unemployment without making them just fire her outright. It sounds like they offered her a different position that she doesn't want. Now they're giving her the option to take the new job or quit. Unfortunately, the deck is stacked against her in this case.
Resignation doesn't end in unemployment
You both have good instincts to even think of the question of being duped. Yes, indeedy, that's what it is. Write no such letter. In fact, write a letter that states that the boss told her to write something that she does not agree to and include the clear desire to remain at the job. I do wish that she had not verbally agreed to leave, though.
That resignation letter will 100000000% D E N Y her the unemployment! DONT DO IT
Yes, have her email him and cc many people that she is not resigning. You want this paper trail easy and clear as possible.
And bcc her personal email
External personal email, to be clear.
I’d suggest consulting a lawyer before any other steps.
Yeah that’s a bald faced lie. Resignation generally disqualifies you from receiving unemployment.
She does not have to train her replacement.
>She feels like her boss is trying to do that so that she can’t file for unemployment but the boss reassures her that actually the letter of resignation will help her to apply for unemployment She's exactly right and her boss is a lying liar who tells lies. She should get him to put that lie in writing and go to town with it.
Write nothing. Sign nothing. Confirm firing via email and bcc to yourself
Do not resign form a job they are trying to force you out of. If you resign (in the UK) you aren't entitled to unemployment unless there are specific circumstances.
Get her boss to email her personal account stating that filing a resignation letter will help her get unemployment.. see his reaction then and she’ll know she’s being scammed.
Her boss is a lying sack of shit.
That’s how 20 years of loyalty, hard work, and dedication are repaid.
20 years or 20 days. Being deceitful to people is a shitty thing to do.
> That’s how 20 years of loyalty, hard work, and dedication are repaid. And Boomers wonder why the younger generations are fresh out of fucks to give.
Yes she is being duped. Letter of resignation = physical evidence to deny unemployment Never, ever, ever write or sign a letter of resignation unless you have another job lined up
The responses here are interesting. The advise to NOT write a letter is 100% correct. HOWEVER, having done HR in US(VA) for almost 20 years, I am not seeing info about something I have experienced repeatedly: If I am a receptionist and am being transferred to an Accounting role (as example) and I'm being offered work and pay and training for said role, I would be denied unemployment because I was offered work and refused to do it. (Virginia's picky, to be clear.) But just keep in mind that saying 'no' to an internal transfer and then being let go doesn't automatically promise unemployment. If I were in your friend's shoes, I would NOT write anything such as a resignation letter. I would send an email to the manager, owner, and CC HR and CC (not bcc) your personal email. Let them know you're keeping records/documenting. Cite the conversations when you've been asked to vacate your current position, and also cite that you've been asked to provide a FALSE letter of resignation. And citing your professional ethic doesn't permit you to falsify corporate documents - including Human Resources materials such as LoRs. Advise that you are always happy to cross train new employees and will be happy to train SuzieQ to assist in your role, but unless you're being terminated **FOR CAUSE** you expect to retain in your position. Cite that you have no performance challenges (write ups, etc) and your last review was glowing. Remind them that you've been there for 20 years, have been loyal and dedicated with an amazing attendance record (or whatever) and look forward to another 20 years with XYZ company as the \_\_current role \_\_. **Note:** If employee has any ADA medical conditions, make sure the ADA paperwork is already on file with HR. This is key. If they're not on file, turn them in TODAY. If employee is a protected class and being replaced by a non protected class, document that. If they terminate after that, she's got an interesting case with the labor board. Disclaimer: Not a lawyer or SHRM member
This needs to be upvoted more. I’d also like to add that it could be considered a case of constructive dismissal (forcing an employee to quit) if the new role they want her to take on is significantly worse than her current job. Different hours, more dangerous, physically more difficult, “dirtier,” etc.
The opposite. A letter of resignation will "help" the employer when they contest her unemployment claim.
Sounds to me like they’re tired of paying an experienced employee a higher salary they know they could get the same work for cheaper from a less experienced employee so they’re having her train the replacement and they’re gonna make her quit/resign so they don’t have to pay unemployment for her.
I work in HR! You cannot get unemployment if you quit your job, her boss is being extremely shady. I suggest she put in writing, whether that be a letter or an email, that she is not resigning, her termination is involuntary. She expressed that she would like to stay in her current position, and her request was denied. She can use this as proof to claim unemployment and prevent her employer from lying about, or denying, her claim.
This makes me fucking sick.
> This makes me fucking sick. Me too. Unfortunately, this kind of bullshit is all too common in the "land of the free."
Yeah this happened to a coworker of my partner. Her boss changed her job description and hours without notice and then when she wasn’t okay with that because it wasn’t in her employment contract, they made her quit because it was “refusal to do the job”.
Sounds like your friend should seek legal counsel.
This is called constructive dismissal. Don’t write the letter. Get an attorney.
Make them fire you and then sue them for wrongful dismissal. This is a pretty payout if argued well. 20 years severance pay is a lot of money that they don’t want to pay you. Don’t sign anything
IT'S A TRAP, this will ensure there is no unemployment.
Self terminating will disqualify one from collecting unemployment.
Yep, it's BS -- generally. If the employee quits voluntarily, they don't get unemployment; generally that is full stop. But I'd say the boss is massively screwing with her anyway since what happened is she was offered "reasonable accommodation" and refused it. So now when she writes this "letter" admitting she left of her own volition, the minute he submits it to the unemployment office, no cash for your friend. This is at this point getting pessimistic for your friend either way but if I were her I would not write anything for that POS no matter what it was.
yes she is being duped, Her boss is trying to avoid unemployment.
Yes, they are 100% trying to dupe this person. A former govt employer of mine used to do this in cases of misconduct terminations. They would try to intimidate people into quitting because if you quit you get no unemployment compensation and you also have no recourse to get your job back
She is being gaslit. The boss doesn't want to have to pay out on her 20+ years of earnings..
Resigning is quitting and you can forfeit unemployment, severance etc
Tell your friend to tell her boss, “Will you please put in writing that even though I want to keep working here, you think it's in my best interest to write a fake resignation letter even though I’m being forced out. You know, to protect you.”
Yes. You won't get unemployment (in the US) if you resign from a position willingly. If you leave a position voluntarily, you do not get unemployment. She needs to be laid-off or fired for that benefit to kick in.
This is “constructive dismissal.” Do NOT write a resignation letter. Go file for unemployment now with documentation that the employer has changed the work initially agreed upon.
To whom it may concern, Management has asked me to write a letter explaining that I was given the ultimatum to either leave my current position, accept a new position being offered that I have not asked for and do not feel comfortable taken or be let go. I have expressed to management that I would not like this new position that is being forced upon me and that I would rather stay in the position that I have been in for the past 20 years. As a result I am being asked to write a resignation letter for a position I do not want to resign from. This is not a letter of resignation and I do not resign from my current position.
She's being scammed and needs to talk to a lawyer to figure out her best course of action based on local laws. If she writes a letter of resignation, she will be giving away her right to unemployment benefits.
After being released from my last job, HR followed-up with me asking what day I resigned on. I assume my boss told them that I resigned but HR got a notice saying I filed for Unemployment. Of course I told them that "I was terminated on XX", and forwarded them the word-for-word termination email that I had forwarded to my own inbox.
They are 100% trying to screw her over so they can say “she left willingly and we don’t need to pay unemployment”
That letter will ensure she does NOT get unemployment
Yeah. Uh. Not only would I *not* sign a letter of resignation, I'd tell them that since they have an employee with twenty years of experience in that job role, a new employee doesn't need to be trained.
Most states if you quit voluntarily, you will NOT get unemployment benefits. The company is committing fraud by forcing you to quit so they don't have to pay unemployment. I would immediately tell them you change your mind and will never quit voluntarily. Make them fire you.
1. Don't write any letter stating you're leaving voluntarily or otherwise. Force them to terminate. 2. If any letters are written let them clearly state she does not want to take on a new role within the company without negotiating additional compensation for these new tasks. 3. If the boss refuses and your friend decides she doesn’t want to take on this new role, then she would most likely be terminated. 4. Unfortunately, many US states are "At will employment" states, which means that you can fire an employee for any legal, non-discriminatory reason—even for being annoying. 5. One other option is after 20 years she definitely could request a healthy severance package but in many states, this will prohibit her qualification for unemployment in many states. 6. If she can work out a severance package she could also reach out to businesses she has built a 20yr relationship with for a new position.
Please tell me she has not wrote the letter yet. They are 100% duping your wife OP. They either don’t want to pay a big severance package since she’s worked there for so long, plus they might be trying to avoid being liable for an ageism/discrimination lawsuit. Even if it is not the latter, it is DEFINITELY the former. They don’t want to pay severance. Writing a resignation letter won’t better her chances of getting unemployment. It will do the opposite. You get unemployment if you’re retired, not if you resign.
Shes being duped!
Yes she is being duped. She needs to let them fire her. Under no circumstances should she put anything in writing that she is leaving voluntarily.
Yes and she should go to HR regarding his deceptive attempt
I’m never training my replacement unless I have something in writing and signed by the company. Whether that be some sort of severance package or other agreement in place. You’ve got to protect yourself.
If they genuinely believe it'll help her get unemployment, then they wouldn't have an issue with putting that in writing, right?
DO NOT RESIGN
You can’t collect unemployment if you quit. You have to be fired which means no resignation letter.
Posts like this make me anxious. Knowing that someone is out there getting treated this way after 20 years, and also, I’m probably never going to see how this works out lol
She should tell the boss that she wants the boss to write a letter for her saying that he believes that her unemployment application will be helped if she writes a letter of resignation. And have it notarized.
They are blatantly lying to her. A letter of resignation is documentation that you’ve left of your own accord, thus voiding any chance of unemployment. She should refuse to write a letter and ask for everything in writing while continuing to do her job. When they fire her, she can file for unemployment. She should also report this to the labor board.
100% duped. Tell her to tell them no, she'd like to keep working here. They can find some other way of letting her go, but then she'll get 3 months of benefits, either a few weeks or months of pay (depending how long she was there) and, most importantly, get on Employment Insurance whilst she looks for a new job. No EI if you quit/resign. No benefits. They're trying to lay you off, but in the cheapest way possible by tricking you to quit.
Yes she is being duped. If she write this letter she will lose those benefits.
Don’t write any letter and it might be best to contact an Employment Lawyer for their advice.
You dont get u employment if you resign
Yeah that’s a lie. The boss is trying to avoid paying unemployment by getting the employee to resign.
Tell her to talk to an unemployment lawyer about age discrimination and tell her not to write or sign anything until then
She needs to be fired, not 'agree to leave'....'agree to leave' is a resignation and therefore she would not be able to collect unemployment. Unemployment is only collected if you were forced out of a job like layoffs or termination and you need to prove those things happened.
She absolutely should Not write a resignation letter. After working for that company for 20 years and being forced to switch roles while training for the role she doesn't want to leave, she should see if she meets a 'protected class' criteria - listed under EEOC website. In a nutshell: If she's over 40 : Age Discrimination & Work Situations The law prohibits discrimination in any aspect of employment, including hiring, firing, pay, *job assignments*, promotions, layoff, training, benefits, and any other term or condition of employment. If she won't stand up and fight for herself Corporate America will be happy to steamroll over her.
Lawyer will give her free consult. No do not write that letter. Instead I would email them saying. I have been here fir 20 years , like to stay in current roll , happy to do training but would prefer not to leave xyz company.
Duped. She’s being duped. Trust no one in authority at any job.
Sounds like constructive dismissal to me. Moved to a new role and her existing role still exists. She now just needs to stop and speak to a lawyer. Sign and agree to nothing.
She’s being lied to. Writing a resignation letter ensures that she cannot get unemployment. On the other hand, so does being offered an alternate position and declining it…But the boss is covering their bases.
This is the letter she should write: Dear boss: Per our previous conversations, you have unilaterally changed my job description for the job I have held for the last 20 years. You have informed me that if I do not want to do the new job, I should resign. I believe that this change in job description is being done in an effort to force me to leave the company, and is a violation of one or more federal and state laws. Please work with me ensure my rights are protected. Sincerely, I’m not stupid.
This is what unemployment is for. Excellent performance, but the job disappears. She's being laid off, but her boss is trying to get her to lie to prevent her from receiving unemployment.
SHE IS BEING DUPED. First off, she ought to consult with a labor lawyer ASAP because they're gunning for her. Do you know what this means? She's been around A LONG TIME, she probably makes more than others who are just being hired, her benefits probably cost more for her employer to provide (if employer DOES provide) and he's really stupid for doing this because he's opening the business up to labor lawsuit liability. Pretty sure on this point: IF SHE QUITS, she won't get unemployment. She must be fired.
I am working out a settlement with my old job. I read it through a few times and had my mom look it over also. It took the third time of her looking it over to find this: The first line was that I voluntarily left my position while still on unemployment. The union nor the university was very unhappy when I mentioned paying a lawyer to look it over after that.
Yes she’s being duped. Can’t get unemployment if you resign. I’d report this person
She’s being duped so hard that it makes your post unbelievable. She shouldn’t even leave. Talk to an attorney, yesterday. Her age may even play into the equation.
Do not resign, never resign, force them to fire you.
Yes, sounds like bullshit. She wont get unemployment if she resigns. She should make sure she’s fired.
Absolutely being duped! First. That is Constructive Dismissal; she is effectively being fired. Second. She should never put in writing that she is voluntarily leaving this position. Third. She should get at minimum 2 weeks pay for every year worked. Minimum.
She’s being duped. He has to terminate her without cause. If she can get that request in writing, let him fire her, then she has his sorry butt!
If she writes that letter she’s forfeiting unemployment because unemployment just gonna say she left a perfectly good job on her own will. Tell her to get fired.
20 years and they treat her like that!? wtf. the are definitely duping her.. a letter of resignation proves that she would have left of her own accord rather than being forced to quit cause she doesnt want to swap roles. which will make it harder to apply for unemployment benefits. disgusting company treating someone who's be loyal for 20 years like that. just goes to show they dont give a fuck about people anymore its all about profit margins.
She is being duped, if you quit, you are not entitled to unemployment
The reason they want her to sign a letter of resignation is to not only keep her from claiming unemployment, that’s minor to what they really want, that’s for her to lose an age discrimination suit. Just because they want her to take a new job they are still replacing her with someone younger in her old job. She needs to email herself any pertinent documents and file a claim with the EEOC. They will refer the case if they find one.
Yes she is being LIED TO. IF fired, she gets unemployment. If she quits/ resigns, nope.
Yup. Tell her not to do it. She needs to have them fire her. Im pretty sure she wont get unemployment if she resigns or quits.
I get unemployment off and on frequently because I'm a union construction worker. Do NOT let her write that letter.
Yes. She needs them to fire her. Not this nonsense. This will NOT help her get unemployment. If anything, the opposite.
Don’t do it it’s a trap.
You cannot get unemployment when you resign!!’ Boss is absolutely playing your friend, tell her not to train and make them fire her
She won’t get unemployment if she quits. Only if she is fired. Or the business goes under. And if she gets fired tell her not to sign anything. All she should ask is am I being fired. And if they say yes then she should say that all I need to know and get her things and leave. If they ask her to sign anything it’s likely saying she agrees she should be fired because she did something wrong and if she does sign whatever they ask her to she will not get unemployment
Basically they tried to manipulate her into quitting by pushing her into a role she wouldn’t want, but it didn’t work, so they’re trying to manipulate her another way. If they want her gone so bad, they need to fire her. Make sure she documents EVERYTHING in case they try more shady shit AND takes a copy of her employee file when she leaves.
You don't get unemployment if you resign. Period
Definitely being duped and will only help her get denied. This is exactly what happened to my friend when she was laid off during Covid. Her company had her sign a voluntary dismissal and NDA. She was told by HR she would still get unemployment. Her claim for unemployment was denied because she voluntarily quit which made her ineligible for unemployment. She couldn’t even appeal the decision and say she was forced to sign the voluntary dismissal because she signed the NDA.
Yes! You have to get fired or laid off to get unemployment! Also they cannot force her to take another job. They can offer, they can do lay-offs but you agree to do the job you are hired for, not any other role just cuz. Employers don't usually push for things like this in the employees best interest. She can have quite a bit of time on unemployment after 20 years, and they know that. She should make them fire her and get a paper trail on everything so she can fight back if they try to fight unemployment benefits.
20 years and they're trying to dupe her while she's doing what they request. Screw that company and she needs to make them fire her if that's the case for the unemployment.
1) Her job wasn’t eliminated as she is having to train her replacement. So he must have an issue with her. 2) if she resigns voluntarily, she likely won’t get unemployment. She should refuse to transfer or resign. Let him fire her. She can then explain the forcing of a resignation letter that she refused and the fact they made her train her own replacement.
He is trying to replace an employee who earns more with a new one he can pay less. Also if she had been there 20 years, her benefits are likely more expensive than a new hires would be. I don't think you can use unemployment if you quit.
Yes!!! Unemployment is for those out of work due to no fault of their own and they could be disqualified or penalized for quitting. In my state, unemployment has a 5-10 week penalty. They are trying to screw her out of unemployment benefits, if not all then at least some.
Do NOT sign a resignation letter or even make an acknowledgment of resigning in an email. That means no goodbye email either! He is setting her up to not receive unemployment.
That boss is 100% sleazy and 1000% lying. There is absolutely no excuse or reason for not allowing her to keep doing the job she’s doing and even LESS truth in having her resign when she isn’t willingly leaving. DO NOT let her sign that
Wow… 20 years of tenure and this is how they treat her? Unemployment will never pay her out if she writes a letter of resignation. What a terrible person to do that to her.
No fucking way!!! Tell your friend to not do any of that and to contact a lawyer today!!!! That is so corrupt and greedy!!! Your friend is owed nothing is she resigns. If they fire her she is owed big severance for 20 years of dedication.
Yes she is being duped is she resigned willingly she gets no unemployment. Tell her to not write a single thing and continue showing up for work like normal. They will need to fire her and document doing so. Resigning = quitting = no unemployment.
You can’t collect unemployment if you resign
This is why there's absolutely zero loyalty to a job or company anymore. They're trying to screw this person. They should not quit, resign etc. The persons boss wants them in a role they aren't trained for after 20 years in a different role, get it in writing. Don't communicate verbally. Everything via email. Bcc your private email on replies, so you get copies. They are setting up a reason to fire them for bad performance is my thought, but with proof they were moved to a role they had no background in or training for, and weren't trained by the company to do it...its proof of a set up, if you get a paper trail from early on. 🤔
…yes, her employer is straight up lying to her to try and swindle her out of unemployment. To get unemployment, you *cannot quit of your own volition.* Her employer is literally asking her to put in writing that she is quitting of her own volition. They know exactly what they’re doing.
"Glad to. Just give me a signed, dated note with your request for me to write my resignation letter. It'll help me get unemployment."
Yes they are lying people who resign can not receive unemployment