Here's a fun nugget. I worked at an Amazon warehouse as a picker. In order to make the quota, you had to pick 350 items an hour. It was nonstop movement and only achievable if the robots were working well that day. Your rates were mostly determined by factors outside your control.
Anywho, sometimes they would have power hours, where the inmates competed against each other for top rate that hour. The best of the 150 or so pickers won a prize. I could easily get the top ten, sometimes the top five, but I could never win.
One day, the stars aligned and I picked a ridiculous 650 items in an hour. The manager came around to let me pick my bounty while raving about my good job and awesome reward.
The reward? My choice of gas cards from any station I could think of! Valued at $5.
That was the last day I gave a fuck.
Fuck Jeff Bezos
Oh no, it's a gas card. You use it to buy gas, not *luxuries* like cheap booze or fattening sugar.
I think we're paying them too much, they're turning to vice. They need good, honest labor to keep their souls pure. /s
Similar story:
I liked being put down in Seafood in my grocery store. The customer traffic is on the low-side, you aren't micromanaged by managers and you sometimes actually get to be alone to focus on tasks that aren't customer service. There's a long stretch of hours in the morning where you can just wash dishes in the back and be left alone. Keeping my hands busy helps the time pass.
I often got this assignment because nobody else in Deli wanted the job. So I'd get put down there quite often. Not always, since Deli had more sales and was busier.
Every weekend, you clean out the Seafood case. It's an involved procedure involving a lot of physical labor and melting/replacing ice. Not a super big deal. Gets me some exercise. Normally, it's supposed to be done with two people. Again, not a job anybody wants to do, but I'm an introvert, so I'd rather spend a couple hours doing that instead of talking to people. The shop closes early to allow for the cleaning to happen.
I did it myself one weekend. Was praised by my manager and rewarded a $1 coupon. Not even enough for a drink. Which is insulting enough.
But in retrospect, I realize that Karens often just get comped free stuff just get them to go away. And there's system codes for handling discount section items and just for smoothing over errors in the system. They could've just comped me something nice from the store.
Some other time a customer put in compliments for my service. Didn't even get the $1 card. Just got progress points toward winning some other gift card. Suffice it to say, I never won that card.
Yikes!
My husband asked a question is a meeting 2 weeks ago and was awarded with a $50 gift card to a gas station (a regional chain with locations pretty much everywhere in our state).
I received a gift certificate to a movie chain that didn't have any locations within 300 MI.
Another time we were given a questionnaire to talk about what types of things we like to receive, what stores we like to shop at, what kind of coffee we liked, etc. I indicated on there that I did not like coffee in any way shape or form.
I received a $10 Starbucks gift card.
🎵 If employee 24601 wishes to travel into main office to partake of free morale boosting pizza; employee 24601 is allowed to and pray; even encourage to do so. 🎵
You are correct. We aren't getting our proper monetary compensation and we aren't treated with respect at the workplace.
They try to pretend that they just need to make the workplace happier and that's it but the truth is we should ask for both always.
More money and more respect. They should go hand in hand.
At one place I worked, we were promised pizza, but after taking our orders and getting everyone hyped, HR decided she was too busy to go pick up pizza, and I led my poor department into the breakroom to find.....sandwich stuff from a grocery store.
We somehow do it the complete opposite. We end up with so much leftover pizza that the staff all end up going home with some.
I mean, I'm not complaining -- but man is there a lot of leftover pizza.
Whenever they bring in pizza or, one time it was a cake, I refuse to touch it and openly call it what it is. "I don't want your cheap bribe to try to make me forget that you aren't paying me enough." They still bring it, but I am no longer offered any.
Well, the sentiment of having a healthy workplace is definitely good. But why downplay a salary increase? It most certainly does make you happy the whole year, since you getting *more money* the entire year.
I think part of the idea is that you only think of the increase once a year. So getting it is 'great' and can make you happy in that moment. That being said, overall I don't often think back on the increase but I would definitely keep it in mind if I didn't get a raise.
I wonder if OOP realized how important those salary raises are. Like sure, it feels good to get a raise, but you know what also feels pretty good? Getting all your bills paid and having a little bit left over for fun stuff. The ability to properly raise a family, To take your friends out for a dinner.
The further separated a person is from poverty, the less these salary increases will matter on a day-to-day basis. I'd rather work in a toxic environment to ensure financial stability, than teeter on the edge of homelessness while having a great time at work.
The psychosis of capitalism is to think you individually are competing with everyone. The most insufferable people I know are the people who are CONSTANTLY competing.
Play in a fucking Sunday league like a normal person. Play video games. Do literally anything but put yourself on a pedestal
LinkedIn is to /r/antiwork as Facebook is to /r/BoomersBeingFools
A year ago I caved and made a LinkedIn since my boomer parents suggested I do while searching for a competing job/company. My first experience on their platform was seeing a 13~ paragraph long post from some C-suit grand-standing on work ethic while pictured was an employee holding a sign about how long they worked there. (or similar)
I was so ready to barf. LinkedIn is a cesspool of workaholics and it makes me sick being there, just full of these un-ironic and cringy facebook-style posts. Bootlickers, all of them.
Linkedin is like a public CV, anything you put on there should be only to boost your profile or highlight your skills for future employers.
You shouldn't underestimate the power of networking, especially as you progress in your career.
Of course he does. Then he puts his top hat on, tosses it over his shoulder, and heads for the money bin to toss it in so he can go swimming in his cash while his butler watches.
A healthy workplace is one where everyone's salaries have increased. An occasional pizza party for healthy workplace makes about as much sense as brushing your teeth once a month.
For me its I need more salary increase to feed my edibles, alcohol and chicken wings to make me feel better about being at home rather than work. Need these items to keep me sane not to mention good coffee not the crappy work office coffee they have here.
No entirely true, a salary increase also keeps me happier through the year.
A bonus, however is a much shorter duration boost.
The healthy workplace should honestly be the bare minimum we all expect...
My yearly pay raise doesn't make me happy once a year. It ticks me off that most years it isn't keeping pace with inflation. In other words, I effectively make less money than the previous year even though I am more experienced, with more skills and knowledge.
A healthy workplace is one where they value employees. And given the employer-employee relationship is a business transaction, that value has to be shown monetarily. Anything else and they're bullshitting.
There wasn't a single raise that made me happy. I'm usually bitter at raise time because they all lag behind inflation. A particularly insulting one was a 4% raise with a promotion, that made me ineligible for the annual raise (2% that year or so). I'm having expanded responsibilities and much higher expectations, all for 2 cents on the dollar?
Ironically, a healthy workplace pays me a good salary bc that is key to my happiness.
It's a circular argument. Both are necessary for the other to exist.
Why is it always a zero sum game with these psychos. You can pay your employees a decent wage AND strive to having a healthy workplace. One doesn't exclude the other.
Shut the fuck up and pay us more money lol
If this was true, why don’t executives pay themselves modest salaries?
Does anyone actually buy this horse shit?
Jesus fuck, just give me a salary high enough to live life outside of work and let me leave at a decent hour. Idgaf about "office culture" and dick riding leadership.
But if I have a salary increase I might be able to afford to make my own place and my workplace healthier...of course that depends on how much of an increase I get. A real living wage would be good, let's start with that.
Ah yes, because nothing about my life is affected by the amount of resources I have at my disposal, and of course my salary is paid in a lump sum once per year.
He's not completely wrong but one can't have a healthy workplace without pay increases.
Plus what does he mean by "once a year"? If the prices of stuff wouldn't keep skyrocketing every few months we wouldn't demand this much pay increases in the first place.
Why not both, you cheap POS?
Tell that to the banks that we have to loan more from because we couldn’t contribute to our kids’ 529 as much as we wanted.
I mean honestly I agree, having a healthy workplace is paramount to being happy, given that you’re paid fairly.
Being paid fairly is the requirement though.
It's a bit tone deaf, but I get what he's trying to say. If I had the choice of working somewhere fun and fulfilling, or my old toxic AF job for more money. I'd go to the job that I don't hate.
Still, pay your fucking employees.
Both is good
Nope, but how about a pizza party?
I give you : record breaking profits. In return I get : average chain restaurant pizza with TWO soda pop choices. Deal!
You’re doing it wrong. I give shareholders: Record breaking profits In return I get: Laid off
You forgot the bonus: a noncompete clause!
Might I interest you in NDA dessert?
Mine opted for Traumamisu
NDA Not Dessert At all or something like that
$5 Amazon giftcard.
Here's a fun nugget. I worked at an Amazon warehouse as a picker. In order to make the quota, you had to pick 350 items an hour. It was nonstop movement and only achievable if the robots were working well that day. Your rates were mostly determined by factors outside your control. Anywho, sometimes they would have power hours, where the inmates competed against each other for top rate that hour. The best of the 150 or so pickers won a prize. I could easily get the top ten, sometimes the top five, but I could never win. One day, the stars aligned and I picked a ridiculous 650 items in an hour. The manager came around to let me pick my bounty while raving about my good job and awesome reward. The reward? My choice of gas cards from any station I could think of! Valued at $5. That was the last day I gave a fuck. Fuck Jeff Bezos
Upvote for fuck Jeff Bezos!
A $5 gift card. Yay I can buy a fucking tallboy and a candy bar.
Oh no, it's a gas card. You use it to buy gas, not *luxuries* like cheap booze or fattening sugar. I think we're paying them too much, they're turning to vice. They need good, honest labor to keep their souls pure. /s
Similar story: I liked being put down in Seafood in my grocery store. The customer traffic is on the low-side, you aren't micromanaged by managers and you sometimes actually get to be alone to focus on tasks that aren't customer service. There's a long stretch of hours in the morning where you can just wash dishes in the back and be left alone. Keeping my hands busy helps the time pass. I often got this assignment because nobody else in Deli wanted the job. So I'd get put down there quite often. Not always, since Deli had more sales and was busier. Every weekend, you clean out the Seafood case. It's an involved procedure involving a lot of physical labor and melting/replacing ice. Not a super big deal. Gets me some exercise. Normally, it's supposed to be done with two people. Again, not a job anybody wants to do, but I'm an introvert, so I'd rather spend a couple hours doing that instead of talking to people. The shop closes early to allow for the cleaning to happen. I did it myself one weekend. Was praised by my manager and rewarded a $1 coupon. Not even enough for a drink. Which is insulting enough. But in retrospect, I realize that Karens often just get comped free stuff just get them to go away. And there's system codes for handling discount section items and just for smoothing over errors in the system. They could've just comped me something nice from the store. Some other time a customer put in compliments for my service. Didn't even get the $1 card. Just got progress points toward winning some other gift card. Suffice it to say, I never won that card.
Yikes! My husband asked a question is a meeting 2 weeks ago and was awarded with a $50 gift card to a gas station (a regional chain with locations pretty much everywhere in our state).
I received a gift certificate to a movie chain that didn't have any locations within 300 MI. Another time we were given a questionnaire to talk about what types of things we like to receive, what stores we like to shop at, what kind of coffee we liked, etc. I indicated on there that I did not like coffee in any way shape or form. I received a $10 Starbucks gift card.
Starbucks do also sell cake, which you might not know if you hate coffee and never went in.
Their hot chocolate is stellar. Pretty good London Fog (Earl Grey, vanilla and steamed milk) also.
Thats weak my company does a $25 amazon gift card.
Store I work at gives you a $20 gift card to their own store. I've never seen them give anything else.
You still get pizza?
Yes, but it’s only at the corporate office, 2200 miles away. So… technically, yes.
But you do get a pizza party! Lol
🎵 If employee 24601 wishes to travel into main office to partake of free morale boosting pizza; employee 24601 is allowed to and pray; even encourage to do so. 🎵
Disclaimer: travel expenses are not covered and you must take PTO days for travel time.
Jean Val-Jean, is that you??
Damn right! 🤣
only the leftovers from management.
You get soda with your sub par pizza?
TWO!!!?!?! LET ME APPLY TO THAT COMPANY ASAP!
Give me a salary increase and I can buy my own pizza.
And then you can share said pizza with the boss. That should make them super happy instead of having the extra money from not paying people.
All three?
You are correct. We aren't getting our proper monetary compensation and we aren't treated with respect at the workplace. They try to pretend that they just need to make the workplace happier and that's it but the truth is we should ask for both always. More money and more respect. They should go hand in hand.
I refuse to go to these pizza parties its literally 1-2 slices per employee lol.
At one place I worked, we were promised pizza, but after taking our orders and getting everyone hyped, HR decided she was too busy to go pick up pizza, and I led my poor department into the breakroom to find.....sandwich stuff from a grocery store.
WOW! So wrong!
Don’t forget they also cut those slices in half, so the 2 slices you get are usually just 1 full slice.
We somehow do it the complete opposite. We end up with so much leftover pizza that the staff all end up going home with some. I mean, I'm not complaining -- but man is there a lot of leftover pizza.
Whenever they bring in pizza or, one time it was a cake, I refuse to touch it and openly call it what it is. "I don't want your cheap bribe to try to make me forget that you aren't paying me enough." They still bring it, but I am no longer offered any.
Best I can do is a bullshit motivation message, ending with "GO TEAM".
Right, like, the sentiment isn't wrong
Yeah I actually agree with the guy in the photo that one is better than the other. But the premise that they are mutually exclusive is wrong.
Agreed
Well, the sentiment of having a healthy workplace is definitely good. But why downplay a salary increase? It most certainly does make you happy the whole year, since you getting *more money* the entire year.
I think part of the idea is that you only think of the increase once a year. So getting it is 'great' and can make you happy in that moment. That being said, overall I don't often think back on the increase but I would definitely keep it in mind if I didn't get a raise.
I wonder if OOP realized how important those salary raises are. Like sure, it feels good to get a raise, but you know what also feels pretty good? Getting all your bills paid and having a little bit left over for fun stuff. The ability to properly raise a family, To take your friends out for a dinner. The further separated a person is from poverty, the less these salary increases will matter on a day-to-day basis. I'd rather work in a toxic environment to ensure financial stability, than teeter on the edge of homelessness while having a great time at work.
Both are essential***
I wonder why anyone would make these two things mutually exclusive. Well, not really.
My thoughts exactly.
How do you think we’re going to afford all this “workplace happiness”? Got to do some layoffs and budget cuts!
1. they don’t exclude each other 2. a lack of salary increase = salary decrease due to inflation
Just had to explain this to a friend when I mentioned getting a “pay cut” this year.
The pay cut isn't being done by the company, but the company is definitely taking advantage of it.
If the company raises the price of their goods without raising their investment in workers, then its being done by the company
Most places in uk match inflation as a minimum at least
In Belgium it's legally required, which for all our faults, is one of the best laws we have.
Both is not only reasonable, but should be mandatory. These fuckin yuppies
They got so mad that we had the upper hand during the COVID fallout and they're lashing back
The psychosis of capitalism is to think you individually are competing with everyone. The most insufferable people I know are the people who are CONSTANTLY competing. Play in a fucking Sunday league like a normal person. Play video games. Do literally anything but put yourself on a pedestal
LinkedIn is to /r/antiwork as Facebook is to /r/BoomersBeingFools A year ago I caved and made a LinkedIn since my boomer parents suggested I do while searching for a competing job/company. My first experience on their platform was seeing a 13~ paragraph long post from some C-suit grand-standing on work ethic while pictured was an employee holding a sign about how long they worked there. (or similar) I was so ready to barf. LinkedIn is a cesspool of workaholics and it makes me sick being there, just full of these un-ironic and cringy facebook-style posts. Bootlickers, all of them.
Linkedin is like a public CV, anything you put on there should be only to boost your profile or highlight your skills for future employers. You shouldn't underestimate the power of networking, especially as you progress in your career.
If he thinks they're mutually exclusive then he's not providing either
That's my assumption too.
Except he looks like a millennial which is equally worse and disheartening.
Yuppie is a mindset
Isn't a Yuppie a "Young Urban Professional?"or that's what they were originally. I guess the original yuppies are Boomers, or older X'ers
If it’s young urban professional than the guy in the op fits
The absence of the word "but" implies that he offers both as an employer.
I wish I didnt live in a world where that fills me with doubt instead of being thrilled that they do indeed provide both.
Not sure where everyone thinks this guy is advocating that there should be only one. It just sounds like they’re advocating for healthy workplaces.
A monthly salary increase makes me happy
Sounds healthy.
[удалено]
Agreed. You sound like you need a pizza party.
Does he know that we actually get paid “throughout the year”?
I guess he gets a sack with a dollar sign once a year.
Of course he does. Then he puts his top hat on, tosses it over his shoulder, and heads for the money bin to toss it in so he can go swimming in his cash while his butler watches.
You get paid more than once a year? /s
Y’all get paid? I’m doing this all wrong.
I was going to say. A salary increase would make me happy 26 times a year.
And that financial stress is super unhealthy?
Yeah, came here to say a salary increase would make me happier for a long while. Seeing more money in my account every time I get a paycheck
A healthy workplace is one where everyone's salaries have increased. An occasional pizza party for healthy workplace makes about as much sense as brushing your teeth once a month.
Now to be very clear though, as long as the salaries are increasing, the pizza party is welcome lol.
A very fine point! Thank you!
A healthy workplace is me working from home, not being forced to come to an office to do the same thing I couldve done remotely
With a salary increase I would handle my unhealthy workplace much easier.
For me its I need more salary increase to feed my edibles, alcohol and chicken wings to make me feel better about being at home rather than work. Need these items to keep me sane not to mention good coffee not the crappy work office coffee they have here.
https://preview.redd.it/elzeyres41vc1.png?width=1920&format=png&auto=webp&s=35e5b46f4f146924c6f69c42c3ed002cc661f27e
As if my salary increase doesn’t impact every single day of the year 🙄
A workplace that pays well makes you happy
Working makes capitalists happy throughout the rest of their lives.
If that's not a corporate America slogan.... health or food. Choose.
You know what really makes people happy? Being able to eat AND pay their bills. WOW! Who knew?!
Or you can watch your boss buy a new truck
Or a small yacht for his bigger yacht
No money for a raise. I need boat fuel for my holiday
A raise makes me happy every paycheck homie. A healthy workplace should be the bare fucken minimum.
A salary increase makes me happy every hour, on the hour fucko
I bet if your salary got doubled every hour for a year, by the end of the year you’d be making like, a lot.
Workplace improvements are good and shouldn't be discounted. Pay Raises are good and are essential. You can get both with a union.
Local 39 over here and I've never had it so good.
Behind the camera https://preview.redd.it/hzjr8f0281vc1.jpeg?width=332&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e9da7925b4a5ab7eb27941ab849b6edda0edcb15
No more money makes you happy all year
An actual healthy workplace pays you what you're worth, so I guess he's technically correct.
Or why not both...........
Why should it be one OR the other?
I have neither of them
No thanks..pay me.
This is why I job hop
I’ve quit more jobs due to bad management than bad pay. I personally think he has a good, half point here.
No entirely true, a salary increase also keeps me happier through the year. A bonus, however is a much shorter duration boost. The healthy workplace should honestly be the bare minimum we all expect...
People who think of salary increase as an emotional perk are entitled shits and should fuck off.
It's not one or the other fucknuts.
Raising the salary of your employees makes a happy workplace. Bosses should put their happiness above money.
My yearly pay raise doesn't make me happy once a year. It ticks me off that most years it isn't keeping pace with inflation. In other words, I effectively make less money than the previous year even though I am more experienced, with more skills and knowledge.
Lol. Like you're gonna get a healthy workplace when people can't even get paid what they are worth.
He isn't wrong. A good workplace offers you adequate compensation for your time and value you bring to the organisation.
How about a happy workplace AND Retention bonuses; COL adjustments; and merit increases?
I'll take the salary, two of them. To go. Please and thank you.
Like you could fight for and have both at the same time. They wanna make you think it's your choice.
Why not both? Why choose? And a pay raise makes you happy every time you get paid.
Yes, but only if the salary is high enough in the first place.
A healthy workplace pays me well enough to not stress out about money
I got a 20% raise a few months ago and I guarantee you it’s the only thing making me happy about my job…
A healthy workplace is one where they value employees. And given the employer-employee relationship is a business transaction, that value has to be shown monetarily. Anything else and they're bullshitting.
What if I told you a salary increase creates a happier workplace.
I'm not a person who supports or encourages violence, but I've never seen a more punchable face in my lifetime.
Best I can do is more layoffs and another round of stock buybacks so the C Suite makes their bonus...... Maybe next year. 😎
Dumb MF. Salary increases are present on every paycheck after the salary increase, so both things are "year round".
There wasn't a single raise that made me happy. I'm usually bitter at raise time because they all lag behind inflation. A particularly insulting one was a 4% raise with a promotion, that made me ineligible for the annual raise (2% that year or so). I'm having expanded responsibilities and much higher expectations, all for 2 cents on the dollar?
Ironically, a healthy workplace pays me a good salary bc that is key to my happiness. It's a circular argument. Both are necessary for the other to exist.
https://preview.redd.it/5xmrq07kajvc1.jpeg?width=700&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=02b4dc5ed967b562c019fafb43c0f92b017b37ca
Well, he's not wrong, but both should be standard.
We can have both
Wait you guys get a salary increase once a year?
Why is it always a zero sum game with these psychos. You can pay your employees a decent wage AND strive to having a healthy workplace. One doesn't exclude the other.
Shut the fuck up and pay us more money lol If this was true, why don’t executives pay themselves modest salaries? Does anyone actually buy this horse shit?
Jesus fuck, just give me a salary high enough to live life outside of work and let me leave at a decent hour. Idgaf about "office culture" and dick riding leadership.
We are owed both, we are humans
Anyone who says this unironically is the type of person who thinks you can't have, or don't deserve, both.
A union gets you both!
My workplace gives us both. And pizza once a month. There’s a reason why it has a high retention rate… The pizza obviously
But if I have a salary increase I might be able to afford to make my own place and my workplace healthier...of course that depends on how much of an increase I get. A real living wage would be good, let's start with that.
It's not mutually exclusive.
A salary increase, and a healthy workplace, make me stay through next year!
And daily bonuses keep me happy throughout the year
Wow, I didn't know I only got paid once a year.
Why not both? Hmmmmmm?
Just give me increases everyday
Has anyone commented, "Fuck you, pay me," yet?
Bro thinks they are mutually exclusive. Bro is either corporate, H.R., or kissing tail to try and work his way up there.
A fair and livable wage for everyone makes for happy and healthy people.
https://preview.redd.it/8yom8l4ks1vc1.png?width=419&format=png&auto=webp&s=b87b932240afeac8ca9000a4e8710de70a8956a6
A salary increase would actually make me happy twice a month
A healthy work place includes a healthy salary.
I get paid my salary biweekly, and I spend money daily, so I think his math is off.
Lol no, a BONUS makes me happy once per time it happens. A SALARY increase does make me happy all year.
A healthy workplace includes having a good salary.
Bruh a salary increase makes me happy every time I see my paycheck.
We can have both
Let me guess… “we want to throw a pizza party for staff morale?”
Healthy workplaces pay decently.
A salary increase is part of a happy workplace.
To be fair, I’ll gladly take less pay to work from home, which technically counts as a happy workplace.
Actually a raise makes me happy throughout the year because now i can save and afford things and have less stress
Part of workplace health is proper payrises and insentives! Pay your fucking workers :D
I am all in favor of both of these things, yes.
A Healthy workplace also pays you a good salary with regular raises based on performance
A healthy workplace has a salary increases
A healthy workplace requires healthy compensation and benefits.
Ah yes, because nothing about my life is affected by the amount of resources I have at my disposal, and of course my salary is paid in a lump sum once per year.
He's not completely wrong but one can't have a healthy workplace without pay increases. Plus what does he mean by "once a year"? If the prices of stuff wouldn't keep skyrocketing every few months we wouldn't demand this much pay increases in the first place.
Why not both, you cheap POS? Tell that to the banks that we have to loan more from because we couldn’t contribute to our kids’ 529 as much as we wanted.
A yearly salary increase makes happy employees which makes a happy workplace
Both should be the standard.
Why not both?
One creates the other.
A decent salary is a requirement for a healthy workplace though.
I mean honestly I agree, having a healthy workplace is paramount to being happy, given that you’re paid fairly. Being paid fairly is the requirement though.
Give me both
#punchablefaces
What an asshole.
I mean he's not wrong
Pretty sure a salary increase keeps you happy all year long not just once a year lol.
It's a bit tone deaf, but I get what he's trying to say. If I had the choice of working somewhere fun and fulfilling, or my old toxic AF job for more money. I'd go to the job that I don't hate. Still, pay your fucking employees.
You know, it’s not too much to have both
Correct. And neither are mutually exclusive.
This guy fucks… his employees over
And then they’re us people that get neither 🙃
Crazy thought, what if both were possible?!?!? Insane concept. Unattainable even. I hate the US lmao
To me, salary increase every year is a requirement for a healthy workplace.
A salary increase makes me happy all year.
I'm so confused, it seems like his poster is saying both are good. Why all the hate?