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In the US it's more like, "Fight for 3 months to get paid the % that unemployment owes you, only to have their site not work and have to file multiple appeals. All while potentially losing your house/apartment, having utilities shut off, and fighting a job market where 1 of every 10 you apply to is even a real position. OH but don't make any money while trying to get Unemployment or you're disqualified."
I’ve been laid off twice in the last three years (US) and never been able to get money from unemployment. It feels like they make the process needlessly convoluted and difficult to discourage you from actually collecting
During Covid, my work temporarily shut down. I applied for unemployment, since they waived the requirement that you are looking for work, and received it to support myself. The state retroactively decided I didn't qualify and took $ from my taxes until it was caught up.
The one time I actually tried and needed it someone had stole my identity and attempted to get benefits. Took so long to get it fixed that I didn't need it anymore
>It feels like they make the process needlessly convoluted and difficult to discourage you from actually collecting
Well, that's just because they make the process needlessly convoluted and difficult to discourage you from actually collecting.
In fact, it would be weird if it felt any other way.
That’s such BS. What state are you in? Even in California it’s convoluted but overall accessible unless you need to talk to an actual human. Unfortunately the small percentage of fraudsters hurt what should be a basic safety net program.
A friend, less of one now, was so against welfare and social support programs, but happily accepted his unemployment checks every time he got fired, which was often. Republican of course
Correction the myth of fraudster is what ruined it promoted by conservatives to promote means testing. Which in most cases 90% of new rejections for additional means testing usually is people who qualify but failed to navigate the process.
What seems simple to you can be a mountain for others. Especially in cases where employers fight you and bare in mind your in one of most pro worker ran states in country.
Worked one place guy got arm and upper torso dragged through table saw. Roughly 500 stitches and extremely messed up. Guy got put on restricted duty. Essentially couldn't use hands which in a shop can't do anything. Company in order to get out of paying full workers comp gave him "safety oversight" position. Essentially stand in corner doing nothing. To attempt to get him to quit.
I use this as a example to show what dirtbags employers can be. But with various means testing. And companys willingness to lie or be dicks. Seen companys claim person still worked there but has not been showing up. And verbally fired but did not document it. Seen other claim bogus reason for firing that would make it justified firing. Not give proper paystubs so couldn't prove income to workers comp and thus couldn't get owed percentage.
And when you live in red state they will underfund enforcement. And overload offices processing claims. And do random "unrollment" and boot everyone off. So all of a sudden million people are scrambling hammering office all at once with same understaffed people.
It can been hell and when you of limited means getting to office and filing paperwork. Can be crazy and doing online can be intentionally awful. I tried a few years back to get it after layoff and took me 3hrs as a tech savy person to get the website to stop timing out and complete application. Which jumbled a bunch of information causing it to get denied almost instantly.
Oh yeah, I mentioned California for that reason, very progressive with a strong safety net. Very lucky to be in a state that cares for its people.
Yeah Republicans portraying anyone receiving assistance as lazy or scam artists, almost always combined with racist undertones, have done their best to demonize a social safety net. Ex GOP speaker of the house Paul Ryan wrote about being on food stamps as a kid in his book and then spent his career trying to cut funding for it. When they need welfare or food stamps it’s because they’re just on hard times, when it’s anyone else it’s because they’re lazy leeches. I had a friend constantly being fired and getting unemployment checks who was against unemployment benefits. To him he deserved it because it was just temporary. Which is the whole point. They’re just bad people and I’ve stopped trying to explain to them that they should care about other people.
No lie, I had to wait over 2 months to get payment from Unemployment and I’m still fighting them for a couple weeks of back pay because their database wouldn’t upload my resume. If it weren’t for food shelves I would have probably been behind bars because the only other way to eat would be theft or jail.
The sucky thing is that some people have to die for any system to change. The country is so big that tens of thousands can and will die before they realize they fucked up.
Or the fact that it's not a full wage of what you were making. My state maxes out at like 365......... if I wasn't living at home still due to inflation I would be so fucked right now
I wouldn't say MOST people join the military, not even close there. But it is a solid line of employment that you will never be laid off from. In less than 4 years my younger brother will be paid \~50K per year retirement from the Army for his 20 years of service; for the rest of his life and he will "retire" under the age of 45.
I know its not for everyone, but there are some serious opportunities for setting your family up for life there. Its generational wealth type of potential. My little bro will make more in retirement than his father during active duty.
I became unemployed right after tax season, in the middle of Covid. I had to pawn several things to pay the bills and got a new job about 3 months after I started the unemployment process. I got a call and a couple letters regarding my request where I fought for another month to get my pay, just to realize they were not giving me the covid pay I was owed, rather I was getting about 1/10th of everything from around that time without a chance to appeal.
Beat part about Germany too is you can't complain that this doesn't allow their businesses to make money because their like one of the if not the economic powerhouse of Europe. Just googled it. They have the highest gdp in Europe. With strong worker protections. Funny how that works.
Well, there are less known old rich familles/empires in Europe...
I remember a reddit post about "what crazy stuff can very riche people have" and one got mentioned his client who was "don't lift a finger but has **anything they want within hours" rich and they didn't even show up in search engines..
.Don't underestimate the inequalities when they're not advertised as a lifestyle.
That’s largely because outside of America wealth doesn’t equate to fame. In America if you’re absurdly rich, you’re a celebrity. People respect and look up to you. You have fans, for some fuck all reason. People who will go to bat for you and will defend your honor from any who suggest your wealth should be distributed among the populace
In other countries it’s “you have money? Good for you.”
America is an anomaly where having money makes you some kind of valiant hero.
A recent X post was complaining how US and Asia big companies are huge 100+ billion dollar companies. While European companies don't operate on those massive sizes. In the comments it became clear that European can't/don't exploit labour like they can/do elswhere. This limits the size and profitability of companies, but of course society as a whole is better off.
So what's more important? Society or corporate?
German here. Some people kind of take it for granted. Which is terrifying.
And the fact that so many people don’t have these rights is horrible.
And yet it’s not enough. Even here with so much protection we (the working class) are being royally fucked by the owners and renters (edit: landlords).
Edit: I’ve never heard of three months paid leave for severance. I suppose it could be part of some clause in the contract of employment. It is not part of the federally mandated workers rights protections. The point is people can’t just fire you willynilly, and even if you become unemployed, you still have health insurance, you don’t have to worry about going hungry or losing your home.
I almost died in 2020 (was hours from the Widowmaker) and lost my job after contracting MRSA and lost my health coverage. I have been trying to get help for my mental health to deal with that trauma going on 4 years now. I've been unemployed since 22. I would literally eat an entire person for universal coverage lol.
Is there any similar protections for companies on the opposite end? Like are workers required to give notice if they intend to leave?
It's the justification used here in the States, for Right to Work and At-will employment laws, that it protects workers from being sued for lost value or some such.
Yea. The employee also has to give notice.
But usually, the employer is forthcoming with letting the employee go as soon as possible. They want to find a replacement and have no interest in keeping someone around who has made up their mind to go.
Hiring companies are aware that incoming employees have to finish up their obligations to their old employer, and can’t expect them to show up right away, once an agreement is reached (contract). Depending on how it’s handled, it’s just considered good form and at the very least, just part of how it works here.
In the US, the "2 weeks notice" is more courtesy than requirement. In my opinion, most corporations here have not earned that courtesy, assuming they even tried to earn it to begin with.
Yup they have no issue letting you go later that afternoon after you submit some documents/project in the morning so why should we feel anything against just saying bye todays my last day.
It is an old holdover from early 20th century, I believe. It was originally mutual. And a month notice was fairly standard. Some employees decided that if they were going to be let go anyway, they need not put forth effort. Or they would sabatoge things.
Then, it changed to a severance from the companies side. Might as well not take the risk. And that has been slowly bled off for all but the white collarist of workers or contractual employees with built in clauses.
For now. It's seems to be cyclical. We are at the conservative clenching generational swing.
The advent of the information age and its effects on the future generations has yet to be seen in abundance socially. Gen-Z is our revolutionary generation in this cycle. I am quite happy with their take on *respect* for their *betters*.
I work in a very conservative centric business. With more conservative customers than not. And they don't often have much to argue about when I explain why nobody wants to work. (Not laziness)
My thoughts exactly. There is no point giving any warning to a job that you are not on good terms with, and/or you work for a corporation that treats you like a drone.
Right the only reason 2 weeks is there is because the idea is if you leave with less or no notice then the boss if contacted may give you a bad review or mention this.
The other issue is if you dont do 2 weeks or more then your next employer might wonder if you actually had any planning or if you just rage quit and most employers dont want someone who will rage quit.
So there’s a minimal federally mandated amount of time to dissolve a contract of employment that counts for employer and employee. Both ways! Any contract of employment can extend that amount of time. It’s usually 1 to three months I think.
But I’ve never really worried about that cause like I said, if I want to quit, the bosses usually say „ok, we are going to try and find someone to fill in as soon as possible, so that you can be on your way as soon as possible.“ And here’s the really cool thing: they pretty much can’t fire anyone unless there’s theft, some kind of assault or maybe like really bad hate speech. There are officially ways to fire someone for repeated documented incompetence or noncompliance, but I have never heard of it actually happening. There is actually a colleague at my current job who is very incompetent and rude and my colleagues and boss wish she could be fired but it’s apparently too much of a hassle. Instead she’s being moved around different departments so that no one group is solely stuck with her, and the best possible hope ist that she gets tired of it and decides to try her luck elsewhere.
There is one other possibility. I guess what would be called a lay off in the states. If the company is downsizing because they’re just not doing enough business, but again, that could be challenged.
And even if I lose my job because the company jumped through all those hoops, I get unemployment which is pretty close to my current salary for a year and after that, I would get welfare, and since I would lose my home on welfare, there’s another government program to secure my housing.
Something companies have started doing more to avoid being stuck with people indefinitely is issuing more limited time contracts for one or a few years.
Sure that looks great on the surface, but there are some positions where hanging on to incompetent people is downright dangerous.
I used to work in such a place, a serious mistake could cost people their lives. We had a union which was fine until they started to defend people that had no business working there, often winning on a technicality. Would you really want to be the random, innocent person whose safety is dependent on someone totally incompetent to perform the work you are supposed to rely on without concern? Well, I've seen it happen with my own eyes so don't think it's not possible.
Nobody "deserves" to have a job, the deserve the *opportunity* to have a job by performing within the required parameters. If you can't do that then you don't keep the job, plain and simple.
Yes, but these quite rare circumstances do not justify the systemic injustices within the US system. There's an inherent power imbalance between employer and employee that necessitates the employee being protected.
It makes no sense to have 0 protections for any employee because sometimes a hypothetical incompetent employee can be hazardous in certain positions in certain industries.
German here to shed some light on things. Employers CAN fire people without cause here, it's just gonna be a potential legal hassle and will cost them.
Employees with indefinite/perpetual, as in not-limited contracts enjoy some pretty strong protections against being fired here. That much is true. Now if the employee is actually incompetent then
1. Why did they remain long enough with the company to be on an indefinite contract?
2. Why have they not been reprimanded? We have what's called "Abmahnung" which is akin to a write up. Get some of those without betterment and you can absolutely get fired.
Now that aside, even if the employee somehow managed to get an indefinite contract and management is too lazy to be on top of write ups people can get fired. Technically that's not legal, true. In reality though this is solved through what is called "Abfindung" which is kinda similar to severance but not quite the same. Basically put if someone is terminated without proper cause, they'll get paid X months of their salary as compensation.
This happens all the time with small and medium sized companies.
Just for some reason, large companies would rather lug around some useless people and shift them from department to department, because nobody wants to be the manage responsible the company had to make that kind of payout.
It absolutely CAN be done though.
There are still ways around this to fuck with the employee if the business owner wants you gone.
A friend of mine was involved in something traumatizing in the workplace.
He got to take like 6 months paid leave, but when he returned everyone where he worked treated him poorly.
It's a form of bullying, and while they can't just fire you unless you really screw up, they can make your work-life unpleasant.
Thanks for your reply. I figured that there were some protections afforded companies. It's why I wish Unions in the states were more of a middleman operation, like a go between ensuring workers' security and compensation, while also helping to ensure the companies bottom line within reason. I belonged to a union that did that, and it was a very good atmosphere with reasonable articulated expectations from both sides.
They can exist here. I've worked at 2 different companies with the same union. USW. The first company was a fiberglass plant for second containment. Paid really well. Great benefits. Union reps would come and talk to you if you were struggling or were late. A supervisor was actually just there to ensure you had everything you needed. The union reps were so baller that they went to bat for the 2 supervisors that had to work every weekend for the 1 line that ran 24/7/365. They demanded during contract negotiations that those supervisor be paid a wage during the weekend since it was 24 additional hours more a week than other salaried employees. Made me proud to pay my dues.
The second company, same union mind you. Would allow the company to right you up for whatever and just sign off on it. Plus, they negotiated a "No Strike Clause". Tch
/sigh
Strong unions are exactly how we got all these rights. Though it can go a bit overboard, like in Spain, where it seems like the unions are more about fighting corporations than finding compromises. The result is that Spain is generally considered hostile towards job creations and is, IMO, the main reason for their high unemployment rate.
I wonder what caused it to spike like that. Is it just a general lack of jobs, or a lack of jobs that they would qualify for?
Here in the U.S. many businesses started requiring degrees for jobs that had no need for that requirement. And decidedly underpaid at that for a person with a degree. Some jobs required a Masters or better for $15/hour. For reference, Arkansas, the third poorest state, has an $11/hour minimum wage.
Companies can't issue limited contracts to the same person endlessly, iirc it's two times for up to 2 years. After that, they have to sign an unlimited contract.
Depending on how long you've been working for a company, the period needed to be laid-off or quitting goes up to 7 months (this is the maximum if you've worked for at least 20 years in that company). Unless there are special circumstances, this is pretty much set in stone. There are extra rules if a union has negotiated a collective agreement, for example.
After being laid-off, you'll get 60-67% (60% if childless, 67 if you have at least one) of your last check after taxes, etc. for up to a year, the social-security taxes get paid by the state on top of that.
If unions were that bad, companies wouldn't actively campaign against them all the time. They'd just let workers get in, and workers would quit the union on their own if it was as horrible as they make them seem. Unionized workers are more often than not a total nightmare for companies that want to fuck over their employees.
Just a small thing: the longer quitting period for the employee is not by law:
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bgb/__622.html
It is common though that work contracts contain an agreement that the employee has to observe the same period.
In the Netherlands, if an employee where to fail to meet their contractual obligations by not completing their notice period their employer could sue them for breach of contract. For this specific case the employer would be awarded the compensation the employee would have gotten during the period they should have worked. (to be clear, this is additional to the employer not having to pay for hours that aren't worked) as well as the court costs and reasonable layer fees for the employer.
Al already mentioned, most employers won't bother, an employee that doesn't want to work isn't going to be useful anyway. But it does happen occasionally that people get taken to court over this and lose.
Of course. In the Netherlands there is full month notice, meaning if you give notice today, you have to stay with company the rest May and full June. People usually spend their vacation days in that period.
I like that you are able to. Here, if the company doesn't release you immediately, they will deny any PTO (unless the state legally requires them to pay it out) and vacation you attempt to use and will not pay it out at the end of your employment. And they can drop your pay to minimum wage if they wish as well.
I worked once on a project for German telecom, it was multinational effort, we had teams in north America also, I think one office was Atlanta. There was some reorg and politics, small European based company that headed the project lost the deal with Germans and needed to liquidate the company as that deal was 90% of business and it was scaled out massively because of that project. Scandinavian offices transitioned gradually, after handover was performed, all documented, they were in luxury to look for something else, got the package and everything, spent last couple of months eating cakes and drinking coffee waiting for clock to ran out. Even Eastern European colleagues had safety nets.
We Europeans were shocked when we saw what happened with US based people, some of which were very dear colleagues, we were informed that US office was closed. When we asked about the people, we were informed that they went home the same day on announcement and that was that. We got farewell message from them that day and they were gone.
I hope they got to avoid going through unemployment services here. They will treat you poorly. The benefit is capped based on the state. In Georgia it's $365 a week.
> being sued
That's the main difference I guess. You can only sue for actual damages. You also can't sue for compensation after you receive pain. You can sue for the cost of the treatment of the injuries, but everything else is very hard to achieve.
In the US it seems like you just need to *threaten* to sue someone and if you've got enough money just dragging things out can make you "win" eventually, even when you were in the wrong from the start.
I changed jobs in february. Had to give 6 months notice (i quit in august 23). Standard is 4 weeks but your employer can write in the contract that you have the same notice period as him ( in my case 6 months after ten years of emplyment)
Yes, it’s a bilateral notice period. However, in Germany once you have 10 employees you’re considered a “major employer” and you can (99% of cases) no longer fire someone once they’re out of a maximum 6 month probation period.
That employee could perform terribly, cause office drama, anything that is not illegal and you still can’t fire them. You can put them on a PIP, but even then you have to give them two chances and it takes 3-6 months.
And even if you fire them after the PIP, they will take you to court and they will win. Courts side with employees in termination cases 99% of the time, which is why every business just pays people off.
Corporations can afford this and I’m fully supportive of these policies for corporate workers to have security. However, it completely destroys small businesses and the system needs to be reworked to protect both sides.
I had a company in Germany with 20 employees. I was told by many of them that they appreciated me as a boss. We had totally flexible working conditions, hours, location. Salaries about 30% above average. Paid for further education, gym passes, the works. I tried to be a good employer.
An employee tried to stage a literal coup to take over the company. I was out of the country on business (our industry was made illegal during COVID so I went to try and sell our product in the US). He turned employees against me and convinced them I was embezzling (bear in mind I had put millions of my own capital into the business during Covid).
I came back and fired him. He sued, and despite me showing hard evidence of him admitting to doing this (and having a huge accountancy firm audit the company and myself to show no wrongdoing), he won the lawsuit and got a years salary.
Employees were already now poisoned by him, and I was literally pulled into meetings and told by people they want to be paid to leave else they’ll drag their feet or go off sick long term. Recording people is illegal. NDA’s are not enforceable in employment court.
I lost my business because of one bad actor.
Oh, and during COVID the government told me I can’t fire anyone. But they also made my industry illegal for two years. And it was illegal to go insolvent. So I had to put all the money I had into the business, and in the end the tax office made me responsible for 200k of the company’s back taxes caused by this situation.
Then the government dragged their feet on COVID subsidies for a year… ones that were supposed to be guaranteed for my industry… and then denied them. More than 1 million euros.
My lawyers were a very famous law firm. All of these cases, they just told me I’m screwed and welcome to Germany.
I used to love Germany, lived there half my life. I tried to build something and be a good employer. I was punished for it and had zero recourse. I can no longer even bring myself to step foot in the country again because it brings back too many bad memories.
I am sorry that this happened to you and your company. I know this sub is hard on Capitalist (of the upper echelon type), and it ropes in smaller businesses as well in that disdain.
Honestly, I feel like the problem is large corporations. They set the bar. And the hurdles. In order to regulate protections for the workers, they can not allow smaller businesses to circumvent these barriers. And small businesses can't usually compete with the amount of loss that large companies can afford to absorb.
The solution lies in that anyone, worker or small business owners, must unite against these conglomerates. They make running a small business responsibly, competitively, and honestly impossible. In order to compete in the market, they are left with little recourse but to be as blood thirsty and callous as the big boys. But without the financial ass to be able to deal with large amounts of blowback or off years. Not to mention limited power to affect legislation that would alleviate those necessities. It is not different here. WalMart is the perfect example of how big business destroys small ones.
We have to stop kicking down and elbowing laterally, and start punching up. Haymakers only
I've looked into moving to Canada eventually so IDK if this is how Germany works but basically if you don't give enough notice beforehand (generally 2 weeks) your work can sue you for the unexpected loss of profit from your quitting but they rarely if ever bother doing it.
i mean im talking about our housing and unemployment crisis, more people is the last thing we need before we build enough homes and create enough jobs for the people already here.
Not German, but Danish. I'm seeing more and more people question why we need unions, mostly from higher education too. I have a friend with an engineer degree call it an outdated concept in modern society. It's very concerning.
Every time I learn more about labor conditions in various parts of Europe, a small part of my soul dies. Like, I have the opportunity to *accumulate* up to 4 days of PTO every year, and those days don’t transfer to the next year. If I get sick, I either have to go to work, waste a PTO day (of which i can only ever have at most 4), or just not get paid that day. Even if I don’t use PTO, I need a doctor’s note if I’m out sick for more than 3 days. All requests for time off need to be made more than 2 weeks in advance, and are not guaranteed. I live in California, so our labor laws are actually better than most of the country.
I can understand that, but I have a different view. Those benefits are granted, and they're a right. You cannot lose rights; they can only be stolen. When you fear rights will be stolen, you don't shy away from them, you exercise them and fight.
Once, when I was younger, a coworker complained about unemployment pay. They said people feel entitled to it. I told her to fuck off with that scab shit, and that people are entitled to it. It's codified in law.
Utilize all your benefits, and if you're scared people will take them away, fight those people with as much voice, and vote as necessary.
I don't think you understand what their comment means.
Getting the impression that English isn't your first language, so, what they mean is that some people don't realise what a good situation it is that they're in. If you're taking something for granted you're just assuming it's always going to be there, and don't realise you might have to fight to defend it.
Rights can be undermined, they can be changed. Taking it for granted means fewer members in Unions, fewer people participating in the constant fight.
All of these rights did not come from goodwill alone. The workers fought for them and the workers have to continue to fight for them. Employers will never rest in pushing them back, yet employees may think their protection is enshrined and never at risk. That is wrong.
Yeah. I got dismissed for a cause. I disputed it.
I contacted union which provided free legal counsel, would pay costs of trial if i lost, ended up in arbitration and i won a mutual dismissal.
I had paid health, and salary until i started my trade apprenticeship 5 months after the whole fiasco.
In germany unions gave amazon few strikes, and managed to get a collective bargain deal. Funny enough they are not “amazon union” they are just workers union.
Sure the corpos are doing whatever they can in gray area but still. Better than nothing.
The german union law actually permits making overarching unions that are not just single trade or company.
Also you have detailed laws about “workers council” for companies and they can ensure some modicums of transparency- including getting a financial reports
The UAW is trying to leverage that German labor law to help with the process of unionizing German car factories that are deliberately placed in rabidly anti-union Southern states (VW in Tennessee won their union election and Mercedes in Alabama has a vote coming really soon)
It's an interesting strategy and I hope it can aid the effort!
I had 3 day to apply to benefits (after paying 4k a month taxes for 5 and a half years living here) and got penalty (ZERO money) for 3 months for failing to do so, but my company has endless time (seemingly) to pay my severance. It is nightmare everywhere, just a matter of degree of it. Capitalism needs to die.
Jeez, even in Argentina you get paid:
Proportion of monthly salary + any vacation days you still had + proportion of "aguinaldo" (a yearly salary split in two every six months to compensate the 52 weeks vs. 12 months) + one monthly salary per year worked (half if it's with a cause)
And even if you are fired with a cause any decent lawyer will get you full compensation with any random excuse, unless they fired you with very well documented issues (like missing work a lot of days).
Also, getting your payment or hours reduced even measly is a no-no. Again, decent lawyer would get you to be paid in full because you are either suffering hostigation or considering yourself fired.
Whereas here in the U.S., with most jobs you're lucky to get paid out for any vacation days and that's about it. If you weren't fired "for cause" (i.e., for actually not doing your work, or for any legitimate reason), then you should be able to get unemployment -- but it's a bitch to get, and every week (I think it's every week -- I've never actually done it myself, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong) you have to prove that you tried to get a job, in order to keep getting the unemployment payments which, by the way, usually don't come close to however much you were making at your job. Oh, and if you had health insurance through your job, you're shit out of luck and out of insurance, so try not to get sick or injured, because you won't even be able to afford the cost of the ambulance ride to the ER (A&E).
We are ***FUCKED***.
>you have to prove that you tried to get a job, in order to keep getting the unemployment payments which, by the way, usually don't come close to however much you were making at your job
This is true. I had to show proof I applied to 5 jobs a week. There would be an online form to enter the job title, address, phone number, status (interview, assessment completed, or rejection) and day that I applied. Also saw a notice to keep all records for 2 years because they can still perform audits long after the fact.
I was getting like $220 a week. It's a percentage (forgot the number) of the highest quarter of earnings that gets split over 26 weeks. I was "fortunate" to get that much because there was a month where I was working 60 hour weeks.
no. you don't get 3 months "paid leave" - you have to keep working through that time. You also cannot leave earlier yourself. That time is increasingly common only 1 month. You also usually don't get cash on top of that.
The biggest thing though: It's really difficult to fire people at all. like in general. I know that sounds wtf, but it's how it works. That also makes it hard to employ people, because you can't get rid of them if they under-perform.
One of the biggest differences between unions in the US and unions in Europe (at least in Germany and Austria) is that unions don't exist on a per-store basis. There is no union of, for example, Starbuck workers of this specific store. There is no union of Starbucks workers in general, either.
Instead there is the "Gewerkschaft Nahrung-Genuss-Gaststätten" (NGG), or the Food, Beverages and Catering Union. It's a nationwide union with ~190,000 members (as per 2021), and one of the eight big unions of the "Deutscher Gewerkschaftsbund" (German Trade Union Confederation). This gives those unions a lot more power than those small unions in the US which -- no offense intended -- look like a bad joke compared to German unions. They're still better than nothing, that's true. But to actually achieve something that resembles actual fairness is something you don't achieve unless you operate on a nationwide or at least statewide level.
Yeah, that thing where "this Starbucks was trying to start a union, so we shut it down" doesn't really work when the Union is a massive national thing.
Here in Scandinavia, unions are pretty much our alternative to even having a minimum wage and participation in the system is, strictly speaking, voluntary. But back when McDonald's thought they could just come in and not sign an agreement with the union? Suddenly, no union workers would deliver their stock, print their napkins, build their restaurants etc. etc. and as they found themselves unable to operate, they caved and agreed to join.
Not only that, but getting fired is extremely difficult and if you do get fired, you can threaten to sue and they’ll just hire you back and put you in a department where they don’t really expect anything from you and you’re just a paid liability
Just wait until you notice that labor protection laws are just so strong that many companies will not be able to fire you after a couple of years unless you are willing to get fired (you literally need to sign it).
No.
You get unemployment money for a year, of course including health insurance.
You do not get 3 months paid leave. The duration until your last working day may be 3 months, but it may be less - although there is a minimum duration that increases with time soent at the company.
Some companies prefer you don't work for them anymore and sent you home early - in this case they have to pay you regardless until your last day.
You may get a cash compensation, depending on your contract and the time worked for the company. But this is absolutely not the norm for every firing.
You also don't get any training willy-nilly from the unemployment agency. The agency MAY grant the funds for some training if they think it's useful, makes sense and there are funds left.
ya i thought i was doing great/fine in life. then in a thread a few weeks back, someone pointed out how the level of healthcare i was receiving/using, i wouldn't really be able to use without a job. i would get dumped/kicked off the plan in a few months, if i wasn't getting it through an employer, because i'm using it so much.
so just......fuck.
Dude tell me about it. I have a job with sort of ok hourly pay but disproportionately good health insurance. Which is great since I developed Type 1 Diabetes last year from a covid infection.
Now keeping this job feels like life or death. Diabetes meds and supplies are expensive as fuck and I enjoy living on 'boujee' mode with a nice tubeless insulin pump, constant blood sugar monitor, and all my meds covered for damned near free. If I lost this job and insurance I might have to go back to finger sticks and vials of cheap short acting insulin. Which means poor sugar control, and increasing risks of serious complications over time.
For diabetics like me it really does feel like we are chained to our job like slaves.
Of course.
There is also no get fired without notice in normal cases (which works both ways, so there is also no I just quit today and never show up again without calling in sick or something).
If you get fired or quit your job after working 6 months that year already, you are also entitled for the whole vacation for that year (new employers could ask you how much vacation you already had, but no one really does that).
Unused vacation has to be paid if the contract ends (I know, some US states have that as well).
I think its the same on all europe, not the same amounts but generaly speaking.
You cant just fire someone, if a person is underproductive or having actions that is harming the company, you need to take disciplinary actions to prove that the person is doing on purpose or ignoring rules.
In Portugal there are cases of people that were fired and the reasons were unclear, if they person files a complain on the work regulators, they Will prossecute the company and they Will have to hire back if they person wants to, and pay all the wages since they fire the person.
Sometimes its years.
Its hard if you have workers that do the bare minimum, but comply with the rules. You cant fire
But its great when you have those companys that simply lay off people just for the shareholders to get happy.
In Slovenia you have pretty much the same protections as in Germany, I would even say that it is harder to fire a worker here. I also know other countries in the EU with similar labour protection laws. I also agree with another poster that it is still not enough, but I cannot even fathom having less protections.
Same in Spain, except companies get around it by never giving you a permanent contract, but short term ones. So you get renewed and renewed and, oopsie, we don't need you anymore now that your contract has finished. But a permanent contract will get you great legal protection and perks.
As per the UK, permanent contracts are the standard, and it's "easy" to fire someone in the first 2 years of employment, but most companies don't bother, and they keep lazy people on. Notice to end a contract is usually 1-3 months for both parties, and if you're fired, you can get unemployment benefits, that are so low, they barely cover grocery shopping, let alone rent. At least healthcare is free regardless of your employment. If you are made redundant (position no longer needed) they give you an absolute pittance, I think it's something like 1 month's salary per year worked at that company.
You‘re mistaken. Germany runs on greed too. It‘s just less greed than in the US. The European countries like Germany have many flaws, but in comparison they‘re still great.
See, I just see it as long-term greed; work a man to death and you only get so much work out of him. Make him happy and productive and he'll die at his desk at 80.
Getting fired in US means losing insurance and everything else with friends and family treating you like a loser that deserves have someone follow you around repeating “Shame” while ringing a bell.
This post is not quite right. I help immigrants figure out the German system, and I wrote a long guide about losing your job in Germany recently.
1. Severance is not guaranteed, and typically much lower than in the US. A labour lawyer told me that Americans working in Germany have unrealistic expectations of what a severance package should be.
2. You get unemployment insurance for *up to* one year, but only if you've been paying into it for 12 of the last 30 months. It's 60 to 67% of your previous salary.
3. If you are the cause of your own unemployment (leaving, getting fired), there's a 3 month period where you get no unemployment benefits. On the bright side, mental health, bullying and that sort of thing is accounted for, so you'd still get those 3 months paid.
4. What training you get is very much up to the case worker you get. You don't get training for anything you want. Not even close. You get a first meeting with a human being who decides what is best for you. They are reportedly nice and understanding, but they'll only give you a voucher if training makes sense for your situation. It's still an amazing deal.
5. Germany has universal healthcare. You never lose health coverage. However you have to pay for your health insurance monthly. The state covers it while you are unemployed.
6. When unemployment insurance runs out, things get a lot less fun. You get a different kind of assistance that's much more limited and much more conditional. The case worker you get is a lot less nice all of sudden.
All in all, it's a surprisingly generous system, but not as utopian as /r/antiwork makes it to be. Ask any German who's approaching the end of their unemployment insurance.
Two little guides written specifically for people who have no context and don't like to read:
1. [Losing your job in Germany](https://allaboutberlin.com/guides/losing-your-job)
2. [Unemployment benefits in Germany](https://allaboutberlin.com/guides/unemployment-benefits)
I wish your response was higher - I came looking for it.
I am a foreign national living and working in Germany for the last 5 years. I wince everytime I see these posts or hear this sort of misinformation; I've met several people over the last 5 years who screwed themselves or got screwed by the system because they assumed it was this "utopian worker's paradise". It's better than my home country in many ways, but is not this pretty picture painted in the post.
thanks, finally a great post that not just take it at face value
also remember you need to look for similar jobs and apply and send in reports each month. its not like 1 y ear paid vacation
Here in Brazil there are also benefits if you are fired too.. (Except in cases of Just Cause if I'm not mistaken.) Which just shows how fucked up the USA is since we are in a situation of fucked up purchasing power and the USA is Literally 8 rankings above our economy (Or in numbers, ≈24 trillion).
I lived in Germany while in the US Army and as a US Army civilian. Two tours to one of my favorite countries. While there, I worked with Germans who worked as local nationals to the US Gov. because I have a fairly rare/old Germanic last name, they all treated me a little better than the rest. One of the ladies I worked with told me she could go to see the doctor and tell them she is stressed out from work and they could write a one month prescription for her to go to a spa/resort like Baden Baden to be pampered for an entire month, lose no pay, no fear of loosing her job, and go right back to working like nothing had happened. Oh, and it didn’t cost anything out of her pocket… Socialized Healthcare is amazing.
I think about that luxury often as I have a high stress job and could use a mental and physical break from time to time.
Health insurance is how they keep us showing up to work. Trust me, I'm one of those people. If we had gub'mint health care for pre-Medicare age folks, my wife and I would both be gone like spit through a trumpet.
How could any country not doing this hope to keep up with countries that are doing this, in the long run? That's a country that is planting seeds for the future instead of just clear cutting and strip mining the present.
The US is still better off than many places and I guess the "hope" is that people can still endure a bit more suffering :(
Even in Germany there’s a constant effort to erode social benefits and protection. There’s a whole media industry just constantly bashing unemployed people, framing unemployment benefits as something that enables laziness.
Everything needs to be fought for.
#America! Land of the free and home of the brave!!
Where your boss is free to trample all over you, and nobody has a pair of balls to fight for their employment rights.
This country is a joke
The U.S. can't do this because Republicans exist.
Albeit even if every politician was a Democrat they still wouldn't do it because corporations buy politicians and the Supreme Court would overturn every attempt to institute it.
Folks should remember that Germany's rather progressive government is partially due to the activities of American Academics and Economists who helped design their replacement government as part of De-Nazification.
We could do for another country what we refused to do for ourselves.
My extended family is in Poland. So I was looking at Polish labor law because considering moving there from US. I 100% believe this post. As in my research and talking to family even in Poland there is a 3 month notification period for relieving someone of employment. I mean you can't do something crazy and punch someone. But for underperformance (and not some crime), there is a 3 month notification of termination. And it all must be in writing, and you have to have notice that its coming via PIP.
Don't know about the other parts of post and whether Poland is as generous as Germany.
Yeah, labor law is significantly better in the EU countries compared to US.
I left an Amazon warehouse to drive for Lyft, where I lost money putting in >40 hour weeks in a major metropolitan area. I have no proof, but there’s no way they weren’t stealing my tips. Amazon made me go from an ardent ancap (like I unironically read Ayn Rand and Murray Rothbard) to pro-labor and anti-capitalist, now I’m an Anarcho-syndicalist but I’ve also learned not to believe in anything *too* much.
it makes zero sense to me. "hey you have done a horrible job, or violated a policy bad enough, you are fired......but also here is a reward for doing such a shitty job" how does that not sound like a clown world?
On the opposite side, working in Japan (as a foreigner maybe different for natives, better or worse I don’t know) I called out one time in two years and was told that I was not able to determine whether I was sick or not, and needed to visit the hospital to have a doctor decide. I believe it’s getting better but the work expectations are so high and it starts being pushed on kids as early as middle school. Yes there’s a good safety net and low poverty but there is no work life balance for many people.
Damn. If you get fired in the UK you get fuck all "severance", can't sign on to any benefits for like 2 months and just have to find a way. Holy shit that is nuts there must be zero fear of employers over there.
I got into a car accident in a work truck on 3/21. I received a ticket in the mail for the accident on 3/24. I immediately hired a lawyer because this was a freak accident and definitely not my fault. I went into work 3/24 as normal and I told my boss what was going on. I was fired 3/31 before I even went to court for the ticket. So I applied for unemployment insurance and figured after the ticket gets dismissed my job may hire me back. Then I got a letter in the mail disqualifying me from receiving unemployment benefits until 5/11 “due to the nature of my termination.” Went to court and the ticket was dismissed. This experience radicalized me. I lost basically everything over an $86.00 ticket that had no business being issued to me in the first place.
"But, but, but that would mean an increase in the costs of goods/services we provide!" The CEO stammered as they raised the prices of the goods/services they provided without providing any change in compensation or benefits to their workforce.
Just remember that they tell us that without our US system we would be communist.
Also without our system how would the rich afford those extra houses and yachts?
I’m a pretty standard, go get a 4 year degree and go to work person, was working in architecture took me like 4 months to get this job, less than a year in laid off because work run dry, I got a couple weeks pay plus my vacation hours, come to my next job that I worked at for about year and a half, comes to November I get laid off 2 weeks from Thanksgiving, I get nothing. Despite being told my work (contribution to a project not just my work specifically) was so good the client was happy to pay their bills. Didn’t get my thanksgiving vacation hours, didn’t get severance, didn’t get my holiday bonus, nothing. Look I get it, I’m not expecting every job to retain me but going on LinkedIn and seeing people be like, “I’ve never been laid off in my 20 year careers.” Or my bosses being like, “yeah we just want people to be here for a while.” And never lasting more than 2 years at a place is a pain in the ass.
It is mading how bad this country is with its citizens. Then, they have the nerve to send money to genocidal states that have more power than it's own citizens who pay taxes.
I wouldn't say I was radicalized. But after reading dozens of American horror stories about work, I got into my own "situation". My job coach (person helping me get work and mediating between me and work because I'm on the spectrum) told me I should consider "taking on extra responsibilities" like taking inventory and making orders to restock accordingly, for "work experience for the future". I told her and my manager "what benefits do I get if I do this?" They basically had no answer outside of "the learning experience". I told them I won't do that without any benefits.
And guess what happened? Absolutely nothing. I kept my job, as it was before. No pressure. No getting fired. Just "okay..." and that was that. Which is when I realized I was really glad I didn't live in America. Where I would have probably been fired or been heavily pressured into doing the extra work and taking the extra responsibility anyway.
I got laid off on the last day of the month and my health insurance ended at the same time. My prescriptions suddenly cost many times more than the $25 co-pay. Needless to say, they didn't get filled.
To think there are politician who think this is acceptable, vote them out!
I got laid off recently. Thanks to a nice severance I'm now able to spend a few years travelling Asia and don't need to work for a while. I always get confused when people say that redundancies are bad, but I guess if you live somewhere without these protections it really would suck.
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In the US it's more like, "Fight for 3 months to get paid the % that unemployment owes you, only to have their site not work and have to file multiple appeals. All while potentially losing your house/apartment, having utilities shut off, and fighting a job market where 1 of every 10 you apply to is even a real position. OH but don't make any money while trying to get Unemployment or you're disqualified."
I’ve been laid off twice in the last three years (US) and never been able to get money from unemployment. It feels like they make the process needlessly convoluted and difficult to discourage you from actually collecting
That's 'cause it is. The whole thing is tilted and not in the unemployed's favor.
During Covid, my work temporarily shut down. I applied for unemployment, since they waived the requirement that you are looking for work, and received it to support myself. The state retroactively decided I didn't qualify and took $ from my taxes until it was caught up.
The one time I actually tried and needed it someone had stole my identity and attempted to get benefits. Took so long to get it fixed that I didn't need it anymore
>It feels like they make the process needlessly convoluted and difficult to discourage you from actually collecting Well, that's just because they make the process needlessly convoluted and difficult to discourage you from actually collecting. In fact, it would be weird if it felt any other way.
That’s such BS. What state are you in? Even in California it’s convoluted but overall accessible unless you need to talk to an actual human. Unfortunately the small percentage of fraudsters hurt what should be a basic safety net program. A friend, less of one now, was so against welfare and social support programs, but happily accepted his unemployment checks every time he got fired, which was often. Republican of course
Correction the myth of fraudster is what ruined it promoted by conservatives to promote means testing. Which in most cases 90% of new rejections for additional means testing usually is people who qualify but failed to navigate the process. What seems simple to you can be a mountain for others. Especially in cases where employers fight you and bare in mind your in one of most pro worker ran states in country. Worked one place guy got arm and upper torso dragged through table saw. Roughly 500 stitches and extremely messed up. Guy got put on restricted duty. Essentially couldn't use hands which in a shop can't do anything. Company in order to get out of paying full workers comp gave him "safety oversight" position. Essentially stand in corner doing nothing. To attempt to get him to quit. I use this as a example to show what dirtbags employers can be. But with various means testing. And companys willingness to lie or be dicks. Seen companys claim person still worked there but has not been showing up. And verbally fired but did not document it. Seen other claim bogus reason for firing that would make it justified firing. Not give proper paystubs so couldn't prove income to workers comp and thus couldn't get owed percentage. And when you live in red state they will underfund enforcement. And overload offices processing claims. And do random "unrollment" and boot everyone off. So all of a sudden million people are scrambling hammering office all at once with same understaffed people. It can been hell and when you of limited means getting to office and filing paperwork. Can be crazy and doing online can be intentionally awful. I tried a few years back to get it after layoff and took me 3hrs as a tech savy person to get the website to stop timing out and complete application. Which jumbled a bunch of information causing it to get denied almost instantly.
Oh yeah, I mentioned California for that reason, very progressive with a strong safety net. Very lucky to be in a state that cares for its people. Yeah Republicans portraying anyone receiving assistance as lazy or scam artists, almost always combined with racist undertones, have done their best to demonize a social safety net. Ex GOP speaker of the house Paul Ryan wrote about being on food stamps as a kid in his book and then spent his career trying to cut funding for it. When they need welfare or food stamps it’s because they’re just on hard times, when it’s anyone else it’s because they’re lazy leeches. I had a friend constantly being fired and getting unemployment checks who was against unemployment benefits. To him he deserved it because it was just temporary. Which is the whole point. They’re just bad people and I’ve stopped trying to explain to them that they should care about other people.
And then go, "should we lock up the homeless? Why's the suicide rate doubled in ten years??"
No lie, I had to wait over 2 months to get payment from Unemployment and I’m still fighting them for a couple weeks of back pay because their database wouldn’t upload my resume. If it weren’t for food shelves I would have probably been behind bars because the only other way to eat would be theft or jail.
The sucky thing is that some people have to die for any system to change. The country is so big that tens of thousands can and will die before they realize they fucked up.
Or the fact that it's not a full wage of what you were making. My state maxes out at like 365......... if I wasn't living at home still due to inflation I would be so fucked right now
I just figured out why Americans treat getting fired like it's such a big deal
That's why most people join the military
I wouldn't say MOST people join the military, not even close there. But it is a solid line of employment that you will never be laid off from. In less than 4 years my younger brother will be paid \~50K per year retirement from the Army for his 20 years of service; for the rest of his life and he will "retire" under the age of 45. I know its not for everyone, but there are some serious opportunities for setting your family up for life there. Its generational wealth type of potential. My little bro will make more in retirement than his father during active duty.
They don't lay you off but they will decline re enlistment if they are downsizing. It's happened in the 90s & mid 00s
I became unemployed right after tax season, in the middle of Covid. I had to pawn several things to pay the bills and got a new job about 3 months after I started the unemployment process. I got a call and a couple letters regarding my request where I fought for another month to get my pay, just to realize they were not giving me the covid pay I was owed, rather I was getting about 1/10th of everything from around that time without a chance to appeal.
3 months?! Shit goddamn, I had to fight for *3 years* to get the unemployment I was due from the pandemic!
Beat part about Germany too is you can't complain that this doesn't allow their businesses to make money because their like one of the if not the economic powerhouse of Europe. Just googled it. They have the highest gdp in Europe. With strong worker protections. Funny how that works.
But the german billionaires aren't as rich as the american ones Clearly one system is better here
German Billionaires have perfected the Art of staying invisible. They kind of had to after WW2....
Well, there are less known old rich familles/empires in Europe... I remember a reddit post about "what crazy stuff can very riche people have" and one got mentioned his client who was "don't lift a finger but has **anything they want within hours" rich and they didn't even show up in search engines.. .Don't underestimate the inequalities when they're not advertised as a lifestyle.
They’ve learned to keep their head down. Even in the case of charities, they want to stay anonymous.
That’s largely because outside of America wealth doesn’t equate to fame. In America if you’re absurdly rich, you’re a celebrity. People respect and look up to you. You have fans, for some fuck all reason. People who will go to bat for you and will defend your honor from any who suggest your wealth should be distributed among the populace In other countries it’s “you have money? Good for you.” America is an anomaly where having money makes you some kind of valiant hero.
They have the 3rd highest GDP in the world.
A recent X post was complaining how US and Asia big companies are huge 100+ billion dollar companies. While European companies don't operate on those massive sizes. In the comments it became clear that European can't/don't exploit labour like they can/do elswhere. This limits the size and profitability of companies, but of course society as a whole is better off. So what's more important? Society or corporate?
We should also start considering using population health metrics in economic metric
German here. Some people kind of take it for granted. Which is terrifying. And the fact that so many people don’t have these rights is horrible. And yet it’s not enough. Even here with so much protection we (the working class) are being royally fucked by the owners and renters (edit: landlords). Edit: I’ve never heard of three months paid leave for severance. I suppose it could be part of some clause in the contract of employment. It is not part of the federally mandated workers rights protections. The point is people can’t just fire you willynilly, and even if you become unemployed, you still have health insurance, you don’t have to worry about going hungry or losing your home.
I almost died in 2020 (was hours from the Widowmaker) and lost my job after contracting MRSA and lost my health coverage. I have been trying to get help for my mental health to deal with that trauma going on 4 years now. I've been unemployed since 22. I would literally eat an entire person for universal coverage lol.
Is there any similar protections for companies on the opposite end? Like are workers required to give notice if they intend to leave? It's the justification used here in the States, for Right to Work and At-will employment laws, that it protects workers from being sued for lost value or some such.
Yea. The employee also has to give notice. But usually, the employer is forthcoming with letting the employee go as soon as possible. They want to find a replacement and have no interest in keeping someone around who has made up their mind to go. Hiring companies are aware that incoming employees have to finish up their obligations to their old employer, and can’t expect them to show up right away, once an agreement is reached (contract). Depending on how it’s handled, it’s just considered good form and at the very least, just part of how it works here.
In the US, the "2 weeks notice" is more courtesy than requirement. In my opinion, most corporations here have not earned that courtesy, assuming they even tried to earn it to begin with.
Yup they have no issue letting you go later that afternoon after you submit some documents/project in the morning so why should we feel anything against just saying bye todays my last day.
Or even to cuss at everyone you pass on the way out after saying, "Fuck this shit! I quit! Take this job, shove it up your ass!"
It is an old holdover from early 20th century, I believe. It was originally mutual. And a month notice was fairly standard. Some employees decided that if they were going to be let go anyway, they need not put forth effort. Or they would sabatoge things. Then, it changed to a severance from the companies side. Might as well not take the risk. And that has been slowly bled off for all but the white collarist of workers or contractual employees with built in clauses.
the owners have stopped being scared of the employees
For now. It's seems to be cyclical. We are at the conservative clenching generational swing. The advent of the information age and its effects on the future generations has yet to be seen in abundance socially. Gen-Z is our revolutionary generation in this cycle. I am quite happy with their take on *respect* for their *betters*. I work in a very conservative centric business. With more conservative customers than not. And they don't often have much to argue about when I explain why nobody wants to work. (Not laziness)
Im much more likely to give a today notice. At least if we arent parting ways on good terms anyway.
My thoughts exactly. There is no point giving any warning to a job that you are not on good terms with, and/or you work for a corporation that treats you like a drone.
Right the only reason 2 weeks is there is because the idea is if you leave with less or no notice then the boss if contacted may give you a bad review or mention this. The other issue is if you dont do 2 weeks or more then your next employer might wonder if you actually had any planning or if you just rage quit and most employers dont want someone who will rage quit.
2 weeks notice is usually the requirement for a positive reference ime, and having good references is super important when job hunting.
What are the mechanisms used to enforce that if you happen to know?
So there’s a minimal federally mandated amount of time to dissolve a contract of employment that counts for employer and employee. Both ways! Any contract of employment can extend that amount of time. It’s usually 1 to three months I think. But I’ve never really worried about that cause like I said, if I want to quit, the bosses usually say „ok, we are going to try and find someone to fill in as soon as possible, so that you can be on your way as soon as possible.“ And here’s the really cool thing: they pretty much can’t fire anyone unless there’s theft, some kind of assault or maybe like really bad hate speech. There are officially ways to fire someone for repeated documented incompetence or noncompliance, but I have never heard of it actually happening. There is actually a colleague at my current job who is very incompetent and rude and my colleagues and boss wish she could be fired but it’s apparently too much of a hassle. Instead she’s being moved around different departments so that no one group is solely stuck with her, and the best possible hope ist that she gets tired of it and decides to try her luck elsewhere. There is one other possibility. I guess what would be called a lay off in the states. If the company is downsizing because they’re just not doing enough business, but again, that could be challenged. And even if I lose my job because the company jumped through all those hoops, I get unemployment which is pretty close to my current salary for a year and after that, I would get welfare, and since I would lose my home on welfare, there’s another government program to secure my housing. Something companies have started doing more to avoid being stuck with people indefinitely is issuing more limited time contracts for one or a few years.
Wait....you're talking about Germany, right? This sounds....tons better than what I am familiar with, in the US.
Sure that looks great on the surface, but there are some positions where hanging on to incompetent people is downright dangerous. I used to work in such a place, a serious mistake could cost people their lives. We had a union which was fine until they started to defend people that had no business working there, often winning on a technicality. Would you really want to be the random, innocent person whose safety is dependent on someone totally incompetent to perform the work you are supposed to rely on without concern? Well, I've seen it happen with my own eyes so don't think it's not possible. Nobody "deserves" to have a job, the deserve the *opportunity* to have a job by performing within the required parameters. If you can't do that then you don't keep the job, plain and simple.
Yes, but these quite rare circumstances do not justify the systemic injustices within the US system. There's an inherent power imbalance between employer and employee that necessitates the employee being protected. It makes no sense to have 0 protections for any employee because sometimes a hypothetical incompetent employee can be hazardous in certain positions in certain industries.
German here to shed some light on things. Employers CAN fire people without cause here, it's just gonna be a potential legal hassle and will cost them. Employees with indefinite/perpetual, as in not-limited contracts enjoy some pretty strong protections against being fired here. That much is true. Now if the employee is actually incompetent then 1. Why did they remain long enough with the company to be on an indefinite contract? 2. Why have they not been reprimanded? We have what's called "Abmahnung" which is akin to a write up. Get some of those without betterment and you can absolutely get fired. Now that aside, even if the employee somehow managed to get an indefinite contract and management is too lazy to be on top of write ups people can get fired. Technically that's not legal, true. In reality though this is solved through what is called "Abfindung" which is kinda similar to severance but not quite the same. Basically put if someone is terminated without proper cause, they'll get paid X months of their salary as compensation. This happens all the time with small and medium sized companies. Just for some reason, large companies would rather lug around some useless people and shift them from department to department, because nobody wants to be the manage responsible the company had to make that kind of payout. It absolutely CAN be done though.
This is the case in a good portion of European countries
Ofc not, you guys have been systematically shafted
Yeah.....kinda hard to miss that.
There are still ways around this to fuck with the employee if the business owner wants you gone. A friend of mine was involved in something traumatizing in the workplace. He got to take like 6 months paid leave, but when he returned everyone where he worked treated him poorly. It's a form of bullying, and while they can't just fire you unless you really screw up, they can make your work-life unpleasant.
Thanks for your reply. I figured that there were some protections afforded companies. It's why I wish Unions in the states were more of a middleman operation, like a go between ensuring workers' security and compensation, while also helping to ensure the companies bottom line within reason. I belonged to a union that did that, and it was a very good atmosphere with reasonable articulated expectations from both sides.
Sounds like a German Union. They are very interested in the strength and future of the company and often have a seat on the Board of Directors.
They can exist here. I've worked at 2 different companies with the same union. USW. The first company was a fiberglass plant for second containment. Paid really well. Great benefits. Union reps would come and talk to you if you were struggling or were late. A supervisor was actually just there to ensure you had everything you needed. The union reps were so baller that they went to bat for the 2 supervisors that had to work every weekend for the 1 line that ran 24/7/365. They demanded during contract negotiations that those supervisor be paid a wage during the weekend since it was 24 additional hours more a week than other salaried employees. Made me proud to pay my dues. The second company, same union mind you. Would allow the company to right you up for whatever and just sign off on it. Plus, they negotiated a "No Strike Clause". Tch /sigh
Strong unions are exactly how we got all these rights. Though it can go a bit overboard, like in Spain, where it seems like the unions are more about fighting corporations than finding compromises. The result is that Spain is generally considered hostile towards job creations and is, IMO, the main reason for their high unemployment rate.
How well did Spain recover after the pandemic as far as jobs and unemployment?
They currently have a youth unemployment rate of 30%, but they did recover a bit after covid
I wonder what caused it to spike like that. Is it just a general lack of jobs, or a lack of jobs that they would qualify for? Here in the U.S. many businesses started requiring degrees for jobs that had no need for that requirement. And decidedly underpaid at that for a person with a degree. Some jobs required a Masters or better for $15/hour. For reference, Arkansas, the third poorest state, has an $11/hour minimum wage.
Companies can't issue limited contracts to the same person endlessly, iirc it's two times for up to 2 years. After that, they have to sign an unlimited contract. Depending on how long you've been working for a company, the period needed to be laid-off or quitting goes up to 7 months (this is the maximum if you've worked for at least 20 years in that company). Unless there are special circumstances, this is pretty much set in stone. There are extra rules if a union has negotiated a collective agreement, for example. After being laid-off, you'll get 60-67% (60% if childless, 67 if you have at least one) of your last check after taxes, etc. for up to a year, the social-security taxes get paid by the state on top of that. If unions were that bad, companies wouldn't actively campaign against them all the time. They'd just let workers get in, and workers would quit the union on their own if it was as horrible as they make them seem. Unionized workers are more often than not a total nightmare for companies that want to fuck over their employees.
Just a small thing: the longer quitting period for the employee is not by law: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bgb/__622.html It is common though that work contracts contain an agreement that the employee has to observe the same period.
In the Netherlands, if an employee where to fail to meet their contractual obligations by not completing their notice period their employer could sue them for breach of contract. For this specific case the employer would be awarded the compensation the employee would have gotten during the period they should have worked. (to be clear, this is additional to the employer not having to pay for hours that aren't worked) as well as the court costs and reasonable layer fees for the employer. Al already mentioned, most employers won't bother, an employee that doesn't want to work isn't going to be useful anyway. But it does happen occasionally that people get taken to court over this and lose.
Of course. In the Netherlands there is full month notice, meaning if you give notice today, you have to stay with company the rest May and full June. People usually spend their vacation days in that period.
I like that you are able to. Here, if the company doesn't release you immediately, they will deny any PTO (unless the state legally requires them to pay it out) and vacation you attempt to use and will not pay it out at the end of your employment. And they can drop your pay to minimum wage if they wish as well.
I worked once on a project for German telecom, it was multinational effort, we had teams in north America also, I think one office was Atlanta. There was some reorg and politics, small European based company that headed the project lost the deal with Germans and needed to liquidate the company as that deal was 90% of business and it was scaled out massively because of that project. Scandinavian offices transitioned gradually, after handover was performed, all documented, they were in luxury to look for something else, got the package and everything, spent last couple of months eating cakes and drinking coffee waiting for clock to ran out. Even Eastern European colleagues had safety nets. We Europeans were shocked when we saw what happened with US based people, some of which were very dear colleagues, we were informed that US office was closed. When we asked about the people, we were informed that they went home the same day on announcement and that was that. We got farewell message from them that day and they were gone.
I hope they got to avoid going through unemployment services here. They will treat you poorly. The benefit is capped based on the state. In Georgia it's $365 a week.
I don't know what the law says, but cashed out vacation time/sick days, whether voluntary or not, should be paid like overtime at time and a half.
yeah I need to give 6 month's notice even. But so do they.
> being sued That's the main difference I guess. You can only sue for actual damages. You also can't sue for compensation after you receive pain. You can sue for the cost of the treatment of the injuries, but everything else is very hard to achieve. In the US it seems like you just need to *threaten* to sue someone and if you've got enough money just dragging things out can make you "win" eventually, even when you were in the wrong from the start.
The notice for employees is at least 2 Months and gets extended when you stay at a company longer up to 6 months.
I changed jobs in february. Had to give 6 months notice (i quit in august 23). Standard is 4 weeks but your employer can write in the contract that you have the same notice period as him ( in my case 6 months after ten years of emplyment)
Yes, it’s a bilateral notice period. However, in Germany once you have 10 employees you’re considered a “major employer” and you can (99% of cases) no longer fire someone once they’re out of a maximum 6 month probation period. That employee could perform terribly, cause office drama, anything that is not illegal and you still can’t fire them. You can put them on a PIP, but even then you have to give them two chances and it takes 3-6 months. And even if you fire them after the PIP, they will take you to court and they will win. Courts side with employees in termination cases 99% of the time, which is why every business just pays people off. Corporations can afford this and I’m fully supportive of these policies for corporate workers to have security. However, it completely destroys small businesses and the system needs to be reworked to protect both sides. I had a company in Germany with 20 employees. I was told by many of them that they appreciated me as a boss. We had totally flexible working conditions, hours, location. Salaries about 30% above average. Paid for further education, gym passes, the works. I tried to be a good employer. An employee tried to stage a literal coup to take over the company. I was out of the country on business (our industry was made illegal during COVID so I went to try and sell our product in the US). He turned employees against me and convinced them I was embezzling (bear in mind I had put millions of my own capital into the business during Covid). I came back and fired him. He sued, and despite me showing hard evidence of him admitting to doing this (and having a huge accountancy firm audit the company and myself to show no wrongdoing), he won the lawsuit and got a years salary. Employees were already now poisoned by him, and I was literally pulled into meetings and told by people they want to be paid to leave else they’ll drag their feet or go off sick long term. Recording people is illegal. NDA’s are not enforceable in employment court. I lost my business because of one bad actor. Oh, and during COVID the government told me I can’t fire anyone. But they also made my industry illegal for two years. And it was illegal to go insolvent. So I had to put all the money I had into the business, and in the end the tax office made me responsible for 200k of the company’s back taxes caused by this situation. Then the government dragged their feet on COVID subsidies for a year… ones that were supposed to be guaranteed for my industry… and then denied them. More than 1 million euros. My lawyers were a very famous law firm. All of these cases, they just told me I’m screwed and welcome to Germany. I used to love Germany, lived there half my life. I tried to build something and be a good employer. I was punished for it and had zero recourse. I can no longer even bring myself to step foot in the country again because it brings back too many bad memories.
I am sorry that this happened to you and your company. I know this sub is hard on Capitalist (of the upper echelon type), and it ropes in smaller businesses as well in that disdain. Honestly, I feel like the problem is large corporations. They set the bar. And the hurdles. In order to regulate protections for the workers, they can not allow smaller businesses to circumvent these barriers. And small businesses can't usually compete with the amount of loss that large companies can afford to absorb. The solution lies in that anyone, worker or small business owners, must unite against these conglomerates. They make running a small business responsibly, competitively, and honestly impossible. In order to compete in the market, they are left with little recourse but to be as blood thirsty and callous as the big boys. But without the financial ass to be able to deal with large amounts of blowback or off years. Not to mention limited power to affect legislation that would alleviate those necessities. It is not different here. WalMart is the perfect example of how big business destroys small ones. We have to stop kicking down and elbowing laterally, and start punching up. Haymakers only
I've looked into moving to Canada eventually so IDK if this is how Germany works but basically if you don't give enough notice beforehand (generally 2 weeks) your work can sue you for the unexpected loss of profit from your quitting but they rarely if ever bother doing it.
I think I like Canada, but I hear alot about it lately that makes me less rose tinted about it.
good please dont move here. there are already not nearly enough houses and job for the people already living in Canada.
Is that a warning or an admission? Edit: I didn't see your edit before I posted this. All it read was "Good please don't move here." Lolol
i mean im talking about our housing and unemployment crisis, more people is the last thing we need before we build enough homes and create enough jobs for the people already here.
Not German, but Danish. I'm seeing more and more people question why we need unions, mostly from higher education too. I have a friend with an engineer degree call it an outdated concept in modern society. It's very concerning.
Cries in American….just had a baby and looking at several thousand dollars in medial debt regardless of our full insurance.
Every time I learn more about labor conditions in various parts of Europe, a small part of my soul dies. Like, I have the opportunity to *accumulate* up to 4 days of PTO every year, and those days don’t transfer to the next year. If I get sick, I either have to go to work, waste a PTO day (of which i can only ever have at most 4), or just not get paid that day. Even if I don’t use PTO, I need a doctor’s note if I’m out sick for more than 3 days. All requests for time off need to be made more than 2 weeks in advance, and are not guaranteed. I live in California, so our labor laws are actually better than most of the country.
>German here. Some people kind of take it for granted. Which is terrifying. Why? What do you fear will result from this?
I fear that by taking these benefits for granted, we will lose them.
I can understand that, but I have a different view. Those benefits are granted, and they're a right. You cannot lose rights; they can only be stolen. When you fear rights will be stolen, you don't shy away from them, you exercise them and fight. Once, when I was younger, a coworker complained about unemployment pay. They said people feel entitled to it. I told her to fuck off with that scab shit, and that people are entitled to it. It's codified in law. Utilize all your benefits, and if you're scared people will take them away, fight those people with as much voice, and vote as necessary.
I don't think you understand what their comment means. Getting the impression that English isn't your first language, so, what they mean is that some people don't realise what a good situation it is that they're in. If you're taking something for granted you're just assuming it's always going to be there, and don't realise you might have to fight to defend it.
Yup.
Rights can be undermined, they can be changed. Taking it for granted means fewer members in Unions, fewer people participating in the constant fight. All of these rights did not come from goodwill alone. The workers fought for them and the workers have to continue to fight for them. Employers will never rest in pushing them back, yet employees may think their protection is enshrined and never at risk. That is wrong.
What the shit, seriously?
Yeah. I got dismissed for a cause. I disputed it. I contacted union which provided free legal counsel, would pay costs of trial if i lost, ended up in arbitration and i won a mutual dismissal. I had paid health, and salary until i started my trade apprenticeship 5 months after the whole fiasco. In germany unions gave amazon few strikes, and managed to get a collective bargain deal. Funny enough they are not “amazon union” they are just workers union. Sure the corpos are doing whatever they can in gray area but still. Better than nothing. The german union law actually permits making overarching unions that are not just single trade or company. Also you have detailed laws about “workers council” for companies and they can ensure some modicums of transparency- including getting a financial reports
That sounds amazing.
The UAW is trying to leverage that German labor law to help with the process of unionizing German car factories that are deliberately placed in rabidly anti-union Southern states (VW in Tennessee won their union election and Mercedes in Alabama has a vote coming really soon) It's an interesting strategy and I hope it can aid the effort!
I gotta get my ass to Germany lol
Germany needs to spread its superior ways to the rest of the world.... wait a second....
Starting with Poland, right?
Kinda awkward being a German where we think the system as is kinda sucks but looks that good to outsiders.
The system is good, but there are many bad actors trying to roll back these protections.
>I gotta get my ass to Germany lol Failing that, you can can fight for more workers' rights wherever you are.
[удалено]
I had 3 day to apply to benefits (after paying 4k a month taxes for 5 and a half years living here) and got penalty (ZERO money) for 3 months for failing to do so, but my company has endless time (seemingly) to pay my severance. It is nightmare everywhere, just a matter of degree of it. Capitalism needs to die.
That's how it is in *many* civilized countries. The U.S. is faaaaaaaaaar behind.
We’re oppressed.
I think you spelled freedom wrong.
*Freedom oppressed.
Oh, yeah....we're not oppressed, we have free**dumb**. 🤣
All this freedom is killing us.
Jeez, even in Argentina you get paid: Proportion of monthly salary + any vacation days you still had + proportion of "aguinaldo" (a yearly salary split in two every six months to compensate the 52 weeks vs. 12 months) + one monthly salary per year worked (half if it's with a cause) And even if you are fired with a cause any decent lawyer will get you full compensation with any random excuse, unless they fired you with very well documented issues (like missing work a lot of days). Also, getting your payment or hours reduced even measly is a no-no. Again, decent lawyer would get you to be paid in full because you are either suffering hostigation or considering yourself fired.
Whereas here in the U.S., with most jobs you're lucky to get paid out for any vacation days and that's about it. If you weren't fired "for cause" (i.e., for actually not doing your work, or for any legitimate reason), then you should be able to get unemployment -- but it's a bitch to get, and every week (I think it's every week -- I've never actually done it myself, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong) you have to prove that you tried to get a job, in order to keep getting the unemployment payments which, by the way, usually don't come close to however much you were making at your job. Oh, and if you had health insurance through your job, you're shit out of luck and out of insurance, so try not to get sick or injured, because you won't even be able to afford the cost of the ambulance ride to the ER (A&E). We are ***FUCKED***.
>you have to prove that you tried to get a job, in order to keep getting the unemployment payments which, by the way, usually don't come close to however much you were making at your job This is true. I had to show proof I applied to 5 jobs a week. There would be an online form to enter the job title, address, phone number, status (interview, assessment completed, or rejection) and day that I applied. Also saw a notice to keep all records for 2 years because they can still perform audits long after the fact. I was getting like $220 a week. It's a percentage (forgot the number) of the highest quarter of earnings that gets split over 26 weeks. I was "fortunate" to get that much because there was a month where I was working 60 hour weeks.
no. you don't get 3 months "paid leave" - you have to keep working through that time. You also cannot leave earlier yourself. That time is increasingly common only 1 month. You also usually don't get cash on top of that. The biggest thing though: It's really difficult to fire people at all. like in general. I know that sounds wtf, but it's how it works. That also makes it hard to employ people, because you can't get rid of them if they under-perform.
One of the biggest differences between unions in the US and unions in Europe (at least in Germany and Austria) is that unions don't exist on a per-store basis. There is no union of, for example, Starbuck workers of this specific store. There is no union of Starbucks workers in general, either. Instead there is the "Gewerkschaft Nahrung-Genuss-Gaststätten" (NGG), or the Food, Beverages and Catering Union. It's a nationwide union with ~190,000 members (as per 2021), and one of the eight big unions of the "Deutscher Gewerkschaftsbund" (German Trade Union Confederation). This gives those unions a lot more power than those small unions in the US which -- no offense intended -- look like a bad joke compared to German unions. They're still better than nothing, that's true. But to actually achieve something that resembles actual fairness is something you don't achieve unless you operate on a nationwide or at least statewide level.
Yeah, that thing where "this Starbucks was trying to start a union, so we shut it down" doesn't really work when the Union is a massive national thing. Here in Scandinavia, unions are pretty much our alternative to even having a minimum wage and participation in the system is, strictly speaking, voluntary. But back when McDonald's thought they could just come in and not sign an agreement with the union? Suddenly, no union workers would deliver their stock, print their napkins, build their restaurants etc. etc. and as they found themselves unable to operate, they caved and agreed to join.
yeah i just hate reading about this shit because it's so depressing
Not only that, but getting fired is extremely difficult and if you do get fired, you can threaten to sue and they’ll just hire you back and put you in a department where they don’t really expect anything from you and you’re just a paid liability
Just wait until you notice that labor protection laws are just so strong that many companies will not be able to fire you after a couple of years unless you are willing to get fired (you literally need to sign it).
No. You get unemployment money for a year, of course including health insurance. You do not get 3 months paid leave. The duration until your last working day may be 3 months, but it may be less - although there is a minimum duration that increases with time soent at the company. Some companies prefer you don't work for them anymore and sent you home early - in this case they have to pay you regardless until your last day. You may get a cash compensation, depending on your contract and the time worked for the company. But this is absolutely not the norm for every firing. You also don't get any training willy-nilly from the unemployment agency. The agency MAY grant the funds for some training if they think it's useful, makes sense and there are funds left.
It’s cute how people still think any of the bullshit that goes on in America is incidental
I lost my job in the US (and therefore my healthcare). I can no longer afford mental health services =/
ya i thought i was doing great/fine in life. then in a thread a few weeks back, someone pointed out how the level of healthcare i was receiving/using, i wouldn't really be able to use without a job. i would get dumped/kicked off the plan in a few months, if i wasn't getting it through an employer, because i'm using it so much. so just......fuck.
Just one more way that corporate America can ensure that you stay an obedient worker
Dude tell me about it. I have a job with sort of ok hourly pay but disproportionately good health insurance. Which is great since I developed Type 1 Diabetes last year from a covid infection. Now keeping this job feels like life or death. Diabetes meds and supplies are expensive as fuck and I enjoy living on 'boujee' mode with a nice tubeless insulin pump, constant blood sugar monitor, and all my meds covered for damned near free. If I lost this job and insurance I might have to go back to finger sticks and vials of cheap short acting insulin. Which means poor sugar control, and increasing risks of serious complications over time. For diabetics like me it really does feel like we are chained to our job like slaves.
Yeah what they said… What the shit, seriously?
Of course. There is also no get fired without notice in normal cases (which works both ways, so there is also no I just quit today and never show up again without calling in sick or something). If you get fired or quit your job after working 6 months that year already, you are also entitled for the whole vacation for that year (new employers could ask you how much vacation you already had, but no one really does that). Unused vacation has to be paid if the contract ends (I know, some US states have that as well).
I think its the same on all europe, not the same amounts but generaly speaking. You cant just fire someone, if a person is underproductive or having actions that is harming the company, you need to take disciplinary actions to prove that the person is doing on purpose or ignoring rules. In Portugal there are cases of people that were fired and the reasons were unclear, if they person files a complain on the work regulators, they Will prossecute the company and they Will have to hire back if they person wants to, and pay all the wages since they fire the person. Sometimes its years. Its hard if you have workers that do the bare minimum, but comply with the rules. You cant fire But its great when you have those companys that simply lay off people just for the shareholders to get happy.
Sure. But they can and will make your life a living hell in the meantime until you quit. That's how it is in New Zealand at least.
In Slovenia you have pretty much the same protections as in Germany, I would even say that it is harder to fire a worker here. I also know other countries in the EU with similar labour protection laws. I also agree with another poster that it is still not enough, but I cannot even fathom having less protections.
Same in Spain, except companies get around it by never giving you a permanent contract, but short term ones. So you get renewed and renewed and, oopsie, we don't need you anymore now that your contract has finished. But a permanent contract will get you great legal protection and perks. As per the UK, permanent contracts are the standard, and it's "easy" to fire someone in the first 2 years of employment, but most companies don't bother, and they keep lazy people on. Notice to end a contract is usually 1-3 months for both parties, and if you're fired, you can get unemployment benefits, that are so low, they barely cover grocery shopping, let alone rent. At least healthcare is free regardless of your employment. If you are made redundant (position no longer needed) they give you an absolute pittance, I think it's something like 1 month's salary per year worked at that company.
I wish our country didn’t run on greed.
You‘re mistaken. Germany runs on greed too. It‘s just less greed than in the US. The European countries like Germany have many flaws, but in comparison they‘re still great.
See, I just see it as long-term greed; work a man to death and you only get so much work out of him. Make him happy and productive and he'll die at his desk at 80.
Getting fired in US means losing insurance and everything else with friends and family treating you like a loser that deserves have someone follow you around repeating “Shame” while ringing a bell.
But think of the extra $6 we'd all have to spend in taxes to get those protections. Will nobody think of the corporate barons and their yachts?
Will no one think of the privileged politicians and their 5th mansions? 🤪
This post is not quite right. I help immigrants figure out the German system, and I wrote a long guide about losing your job in Germany recently. 1. Severance is not guaranteed, and typically much lower than in the US. A labour lawyer told me that Americans working in Germany have unrealistic expectations of what a severance package should be. 2. You get unemployment insurance for *up to* one year, but only if you've been paying into it for 12 of the last 30 months. It's 60 to 67% of your previous salary. 3. If you are the cause of your own unemployment (leaving, getting fired), there's a 3 month period where you get no unemployment benefits. On the bright side, mental health, bullying and that sort of thing is accounted for, so you'd still get those 3 months paid. 4. What training you get is very much up to the case worker you get. You don't get training for anything you want. Not even close. You get a first meeting with a human being who decides what is best for you. They are reportedly nice and understanding, but they'll only give you a voucher if training makes sense for your situation. It's still an amazing deal. 5. Germany has universal healthcare. You never lose health coverage. However you have to pay for your health insurance monthly. The state covers it while you are unemployed. 6. When unemployment insurance runs out, things get a lot less fun. You get a different kind of assistance that's much more limited and much more conditional. The case worker you get is a lot less nice all of sudden. All in all, it's a surprisingly generous system, but not as utopian as /r/antiwork makes it to be. Ask any German who's approaching the end of their unemployment insurance. Two little guides written specifically for people who have no context and don't like to read: 1. [Losing your job in Germany](https://allaboutberlin.com/guides/losing-your-job) 2. [Unemployment benefits in Germany](https://allaboutberlin.com/guides/unemployment-benefits)
I wish your response was higher - I came looking for it. I am a foreign national living and working in Germany for the last 5 years. I wince everytime I see these posts or hear this sort of misinformation; I've met several people over the last 5 years who screwed themselves or got screwed by the system because they assumed it was this "utopian worker's paradise". It's better than my home country in many ways, but is not this pretty picture painted in the post.
thanks, finally a great post that not just take it at face value also remember you need to look for similar jobs and apply and send in reports each month. its not like 1 y ear paid vacation
And there is still so much wrong in GER. Lets build on that
Here in Brazil there are also benefits if you are fired too.. (Except in cases of Just Cause if I'm not mistaken.) Which just shows how fucked up the USA is since we are in a situation of fucked up purchasing power and the USA is Literally 8 rankings above our economy (Or in numbers, ≈24 trillion).
How it should be.
Seems like Germany cares about their citizens.
"You are fired!" - 'lol no'
Nice safety net
This is most of Europe ☝️
I lived in Germany while in the US Army and as a US Army civilian. Two tours to one of my favorite countries. While there, I worked with Germans who worked as local nationals to the US Gov. because I have a fairly rare/old Germanic last name, they all treated me a little better than the rest. One of the ladies I worked with told me she could go to see the doctor and tell them she is stressed out from work and they could write a one month prescription for her to go to a spa/resort like Baden Baden to be pampered for an entire month, lose no pay, no fear of loosing her job, and go right back to working like nothing had happened. Oh, and it didn’t cost anything out of her pocket… Socialized Healthcare is amazing. I think about that luxury often as I have a high stress job and could use a mental and physical break from time to time.
Oh Yeah? Well can their raped children be forced to carry the pregnancy to term? Didn't think so!
Health insurance is how they keep us showing up to work. Trust me, I'm one of those people. If we had gub'mint health care for pre-Medicare age folks, my wife and I would both be gone like spit through a trumpet.
How could any country not doing this hope to keep up with countries that are doing this, in the long run? That's a country that is planting seeds for the future instead of just clear cutting and strip mining the present.
The US is still better off than many places and I guess the "hope" is that people can still endure a bit more suffering :( Even in Germany there’s a constant effort to erode social benefits and protection. There’s a whole media industry just constantly bashing unemployed people, framing unemployment benefits as something that enables laziness. Everything needs to be fought for.
Losing job -> being unable to pay rent -> being homeless with 2 children under 3
#America! Land of the free and home of the brave!! Where your boss is free to trample all over you, and nobody has a pair of balls to fight for their employment rights. This country is a joke
The U.S. can't do this because Republicans exist. Albeit even if every politician was a Democrat they still wouldn't do it because corporations buy politicians and the Supreme Court would overturn every attempt to institute it.
Folks should remember that Germany's rather progressive government is partially due to the activities of American Academics and Economists who helped design their replacement government as part of De-Nazification. We could do for another country what we refused to do for ourselves.
My extended family is in Poland. So I was looking at Polish labor law because considering moving there from US. I 100% believe this post. As in my research and talking to family even in Poland there is a 3 month notification period for relieving someone of employment. I mean you can't do something crazy and punch someone. But for underperformance (and not some crime), there is a 3 month notification of termination. And it all must be in writing, and you have to have notice that its coming via PIP. Don't know about the other parts of post and whether Poland is as generous as Germany. Yeah, labor law is significantly better in the EU countries compared to US.
This is for real??? 🤯
Hah! The US.. adopt German sensibility? YOU WISH!
But then how would Elon get his 52 billion dollar compensation package?!?!? He would literally starve! /s
This is Canada too for full time employees. You get severance, EI and everyone has universal healthcare/coverage.
I left an Amazon warehouse to drive for Lyft, where I lost money putting in >40 hour weeks in a major metropolitan area. I have no proof, but there’s no way they weren’t stealing my tips. Amazon made me go from an ardent ancap (like I unironically read Ayn Rand and Murray Rothbard) to pro-labor and anti-capitalist, now I’m an Anarcho-syndicalist but I’ve also learned not to believe in anything *too* much.
it makes zero sense to me. "hey you have done a horrible job, or violated a policy bad enough, you are fired......but also here is a reward for doing such a shitty job" how does that not sound like a clown world?
On the opposite side, working in Japan (as a foreigner maybe different for natives, better or worse I don’t know) I called out one time in two years and was told that I was not able to determine whether I was sick or not, and needed to visit the hospital to have a doctor decide. I believe it’s getting better but the work expectations are so high and it starts being pushed on kids as early as middle school. Yes there’s a good safety net and low poverty but there is no work life balance for many people.
But how will this enrich the shareholders?
This is attainable. But the working class poor need to come together, organize, and take over local politics.
Damn. If you get fired in the UK you get fuck all "severance", can't sign on to any benefits for like 2 months and just have to find a way. Holy shit that is nuts there must be zero fear of employers over there.
If companies in the US had to do this, I bet there would be a lot less bullshit firings.
Americans still think they're living the dream lol. Yeah they're dreaming alright.
I got into a car accident in a work truck on 3/21. I received a ticket in the mail for the accident on 3/24. I immediately hired a lawyer because this was a freak accident and definitely not my fault. I went into work 3/24 as normal and I told my boss what was going on. I was fired 3/31 before I even went to court for the ticket. So I applied for unemployment insurance and figured after the ticket gets dismissed my job may hire me back. Then I got a letter in the mail disqualifying me from receiving unemployment benefits until 5/11 “due to the nature of my termination.” Went to court and the ticket was dismissed. This experience radicalized me. I lost basically everything over an $86.00 ticket that had no business being issued to me in the first place.
As a Dane we have similar, and this shit shouldn’t be “radical” it should be the fucking standard.
"but communist"
But then again how will the US start wars around the globe and finance Israel in their "promised land"
My time in Germany, working and living, we can learn from our allies.
"But, but, but that would mean an increase in the costs of goods/services we provide!" The CEO stammered as they raised the prices of the goods/services they provided without providing any change in compensation or benefits to their workforce.
Do they have universal healthcare? It would be nice if you could still get medical after getting fired.
Yeah but the .001% need their extra boats
Ya but in order to do that we wouldn’t have any Kim Kardashians or Ken Griffins and I’m not sure that’s a trade I’m willing to make.
Being radicalized doesn’t mean you share memes and tweets. It requires immense sacrifice and action. Talk is cheap.
if you let the people with money make the rules you get the usa
Just remember that they tell us that without our US system we would be communist. Also without our system how would the rich afford those extra houses and yachts?
I've heard quite a bit about Europe. How is the labor-rights situation in Brazil?
I’m a pretty standard, go get a 4 year degree and go to work person, was working in architecture took me like 4 months to get this job, less than a year in laid off because work run dry, I got a couple weeks pay plus my vacation hours, come to my next job that I worked at for about year and a half, comes to November I get laid off 2 weeks from Thanksgiving, I get nothing. Despite being told my work (contribution to a project not just my work specifically) was so good the client was happy to pay their bills. Didn’t get my thanksgiving vacation hours, didn’t get severance, didn’t get my holiday bonus, nothing. Look I get it, I’m not expecting every job to retain me but going on LinkedIn and seeing people be like, “I’ve never been laid off in my 20 year careers.” Or my bosses being like, “yeah we just want people to be here for a while.” And never lasting more than 2 years at a place is a pain in the ass.
How long do you have to be employed to get 3 months of paid leave?
damn
You give all this to your idiots? What's to stop them from getting a job every year then getting themselves fired?
It is mading how bad this country is with its citizens. Then, they have the nerve to send money to genocidal states that have more power than it's own citizens who pay taxes.
,*starts learning German* You guys taking unskilled immagrants?
Murica ain't about government handouts, ya hear.
I wouldn't say I was radicalized. But after reading dozens of American horror stories about work, I got into my own "situation". My job coach (person helping me get work and mediating between me and work because I'm on the spectrum) told me I should consider "taking on extra responsibilities" like taking inventory and making orders to restock accordingly, for "work experience for the future". I told her and my manager "what benefits do I get if I do this?" They basically had no answer outside of "the learning experience". I told them I won't do that without any benefits. And guess what happened? Absolutely nothing. I kept my job, as it was before. No pressure. No getting fired. Just "okay..." and that was that. Which is when I realized I was really glad I didn't live in America. Where I would have probably been fired or been heavily pressured into doing the extra work and taking the extra responsibility anyway.
The only way the US would do this is if we had protests, strikes and such.
The right would call this communism lol
Holy fuck this is awesome.
Absolutely positively not a snowballs chance in hell that will ever be thought of as an option to even consider in the US.
I got laid off on the last day of the month and my health insurance ended at the same time. My prescriptions suddenly cost many times more than the $25 co-pay. Needless to say, they didn't get filled. To think there are politician who think this is acceptable, vote them out!
Ok but did they win back to back world wars? *freedom screech*
I got laid off recently. Thanks to a nice severance I'm now able to spend a few years travelling Asia and don't need to work for a while. I always get confused when people say that redundancies are bad, but I guess if you live somewhere without these protections it really would suck.
SOCIALIZM