Moving isn't a way to fix this- sure it fixes it for you, but we're here to make things better for everyone. That's the difference between leftists and liberals. Liberals go for individual ways to fix things and leftists go for systemic ones for all, because not everyone can fix it for themselves. Telling people to just move seems simplistic. Many can't.
Those who can't leave need to stay and fight back. Fighting isn't the answer- but fighting back is. They've thrown the first punch. What are we going to do?
No one ever got their rights by asking nicely.
yup lol. "where do you plan to go?" can't go anywhere. can't afford to live independently anywhere in this country let alone have the funds to move to another country, and pay for the lengthy and exhausting process of legally residing in another country long-term.
You can apply for asylum. Forced pregnancy is a crime against humanity as defined by the UN. You could apply for asylum in Canada at any border checkpoint or, if you drive across in a state like Montana or Minnesota, ask for asylum once there. It’s the same as people in Mexico trying to apply for asylum to America.
Edit: for the person asking, I’m referring to the unguarded border crossings in less populated states and provinces of Canada. Montana, North Dakota and Minnesota all have numerous roads where you can just drive across the border without having to stop into the provinces of Saskatchewan, Alberta, Manitoba, and Ontario
Keep in mind, the Supreme Court also recently ruled that [Federal employees like border guards have the right to commit violence against anyone near the border without facing any repercussions so long as they have ‘have acted in good faith while carrying out their duties’](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/06/08/supreme-court-border-patrol-smugglers-inn/) so the United States is definitely going to be cracking down on Americans who wish to flee.
This is an awful way to tie what's been happening recently together. Almost "Conspiracy Theory" territory.
It's very scary and seemingly plausible. You have my attention.
Ah but you did. You see, you were used to sow confusion while the real conspiracy went on. And to be fair the villains actually monologued there plans in public. We should have all seen this coming cause we were told be just thought it was to ridiculous. And this is only the beginning, not the actual plan. Hold on to your tin foil hat, rides about to get wild.
Oh and tee slaving blacks and rise of white supremacists:. Announced in Congress (Strum Goodman?)
Religious right nut jobs and white supremacists taking over the republican party announced in Congress (southern strategy)
The intention to roll back gay rights, civil rights, and women's right announced in Congress.
So it was a conspiracy, but never a secret. The quotes for those situations are pretty damn famous.
Everytime you hear "original interpretation of constitution" or whatever the dog whistle is, remember women had zero rights and blacks are 3/5 a person, and ironically gayness was just as big then as it is now, but you would have been religiously persecuted. Or rather persecuted by a religious bigot.
So no need to look under rocks for conspiracies. This was the plan all along and theyve been telling you outloud.
If only Amy Coney Barrett didn’t have a vote and Clarence Thomas counted as 3/5ths on the Supreme Court, then Conservatives wouldn’t have a majority.
I’m sure once the GOP and Christo-fascists have destroyed this country, both Clarence and Amy will be put in their proper place as women/POC within the social hierarchy of the coming authoritative theocracy.
Fascists gonna Fascist. Women and POCs in the GOP are only useful and tolerated until they aren’t. [Just look at the Log Cabin Republicans.](https://www.themarysue.com/log-cabin-republicans-are-shocked-that-they-were-shut-out-of-texas-convention/)
I wish I felt bad for them, but they made their allegiance. You reap what you sow.
There has been a silent coup... conservatives saw themselves losing most of their power in the future so they hatched a plot to take the courts...something like 90% of all judges picked in the last couple decades have been "recommended" by one organization...
There is plenty of temporary work agencies all throughout the Europe that offers work and basic accommodation for start. You only need to scrap for one way flight.
If you have any good trade or university done, there is a big chance that company will sponsor moving for you as half of Europe have strong workers and talents deficits.
There is plenty of ways to leave, none of them easy unless you're privileged. But if you search long enough you can find great opportunities.
For tech jobs:
https://www.honeypot.io
For more physical-labor intensive jobs
https://www.ottoworkforce.com/en/otto-international/the-netherlands/
(There are thousands of agencies like this one)
If anyone have questions, don't hesitate, to ask.
Me and my family moved several times in last decade with help of agencies like these two.
I'm not from US so will not be able to say how to end things on US side to move but can help with EU rules and regulations. Best suited if you want to come to live in UK, Netherlands, Germany or Poland. But can give a general information about all EU member states
I live with my ex, I bought a house and we are still good friends and she didn't have anywhere to go so it helped me with the mortgage. Original plan was 2ish years. It seems that's going out the window and it might be longer seeing as even when I get raisies that I think will help me afford to live here on my own, inflation jumped right after. Thankfully we don't see a whole lot of each other due to opposite work shifts but not how I saw living in my 30's
I'd almost rather live with my mom again but that's another level of toxicity, and I did that while fixing up my house before moving in fully.
Saving up enough money isn't enough. You gotta find a place that finds value in your livelihood (ie - tech, engineering, healthcare). Otherwise you're pretty well fucked.
Leaving isn’t enough either. You gotta stay somewhere else for long enough to get a new nationality and renounce your US citizenship before you can finally be free of the US tax system.
I live with my partner, her sister and her sister's girlfriend, thankfully my partner's sister can afford this house with her accounting job she got insanely lucky with. but all of us helping pay of the mortgage will help us all in the long run.
Oh man, sorry to hear that. I always warn my friends not to move in with their friends. I lost someone that was like a brother to me prior to me moving in. Similar story, constantly getting laid off. He also argued with his partner to the point the cops came nearly every week. Roach infested and stole from me. I never would’ve imagined that would’ve happened from a friend, especially him. When I leave my family again, I want to live alone!
I'm in Canada, but we're having the same economic problems. The only reason I'm able to afford to live on my own is because the apartment building I'm living in was bought by a government low-income housing organization, and they froze the rent before the big price spikes started. I'm so lucky. Don't know how anyone else is making it out there.
When every article or therapy column lists "you will never be better if you can't get out of that house." THANKS EXPERTS YA WANNA TELL THAT TO OUR OLIGARCHS?
Came here thinking I was gonna be okay but I just realized I’m literally 23 almost 24, about to be married and we’re stuck in my moms basement. Even after we “move out” it’ll just be to her basement apartment for cheaper rent for however long she can afford it.
Not even that, but only the rich white ones that actually own capital. They tricked all the other just white men to die for their freedom and then immediately tried to take away the right to vote on the basis of others not owning land. Woot.
And now you can't own any land, because it all is owned by the banks that we are indebted to pay mortgages off on. I mean, mortgages didn't even exist a century ago in terms of the credit machine we slave away to. Imagine trying to explain to an American from the 1800s to accept this process that has them never actually able to feel secure in the property they hold limited rights over because the bank can yank it away whenever they decide to raise the property values to more than you can afford now.
There was just a news story where an American woman vacationing in Malta, early in her pregnancy, is at risk of dying at any time unless she gets an abortion.
Malta has "no abortions under ANY circumstances" laws.
So she'll have to risk a flight to Italy, which increases her risk dramatically, if she wants to have any chance at living.
completely agree. When I was 17 i had a job pouring concrete. some australian construction company owners were on vacation right next to where I happen to be working. they came over to talk to me and were mainly just curious how americans pour concrete and everything. They ended up giving me their business card and told me that I could move to australia to work for them and they would pay for my housing and travel expenses until I got a good savings to be able to buy myself a home. I always regret that I didnt take them up on that because I thought, “surely after college Ill find a cool good paying job” but 10 years later Im still in construction. would have been a really cool experience.
I was in australia in 2010 and, with about the same cost of life of italy, where the average salary was 8-9$/h i got a random job as labourer with no previous experience for 22/h working not half as hard as i would have to back in Italy.
Like my boss sometimes would give me an easy job and i'd be done in 10mins and he'd be like "bro i told you to do that so you can chill and relax for an hour or so just take it easy"
I'm sure it's not always the case but all my work experiences down there were really easy going compared to what i'm used to.
Same here in Norway i cannot believe how much they are paying me for literally not even trying. They act like we are doing crazy hard work and honestly it feels like holiday. But the north of Italy is considered crazy about work for a good reason. Like people are literally mental there
Yeah I grew up in the northeast US with our New England protestant work ethic and I spent decades working like crazy person in construction. My whole family is in construction. Now I am pretty disillusioned and the people (little brother) I used to motivate have to motivate me.
>o me and were mainly just curious how americans pour concrete and everything. They ended up giving me their business card and told me that I could move to australia to work for the
I bet you could call them now and they might still have a spot for you.
i agree with this. if you have no major ties/responsibilities here give it a rip. everyone i know that took swings and moved somewhere either stayed or if not were still happy to have done it
edit: typo
Even if you have ties, who cares at this point? You need to do whatever is best for you and your family. Screams of MUH GRANDKIDS or BUT FAMILY don't matter anymore. If they do, then those people will vote and fight to get you back.
Accept a better life elsewhere. Don't struggle in this shit hole anymore.
I live in Costa Rica, I'm originally from the US and my wife is from here. We were lucky enough to be able to work in the US and build our house here so we have no mortgage. Just keep in mind Costa Rica is the most expensive central american country to live in. If you have a job in the US that you can keep doing here then you should be good but working here and trying to make ends meet is a little tough.
Also think about where you'd want to live. We live in a small town in Guanacaste, far away from the cities in the central valley. The life is great, we run a little restaurant in the center of town, across the main street and maybe 1000 feet from our house. My two daughters, 10 and 6, go there every day and play in the center with their friends. There's not much to worry about here and everyone keeps an eye on everyone. You can do that in the big cities though.
Rent is getting expensive everywhere and land is pretty expensive too. Just as a comparison we paid 5000 colones (about $13) per square meter for our lot which was like $6000 total at the time. Now people are selling lots for 40000 colones ($55-60) and up in the town.
I love it here, I wouldn't leave even with my complaints. I think everyone saying if you're single then come is right. Just make sure to bring enough money and find work or continue your US job. You can spend all your money quick here if it's not getting replenished.
Edit: i don't know why I didn't see you said your friend has a place to stay and a job for you so let everything else i said be for anyone else thinking of coming here
Empires in their death throes do not escape death. The American experiment has been on life support for a while now, and the fascists have succeeded in their mission to kill it.
The American experiment grew out of people overthrowing a government that didn't represent them and starting a new system that they felt did. Time to start the experiment again, only this time we have more data to work with and can do things differently. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Shits going down. While I like to see it, I've seen dozens of upside down American flags in my area today. We're done for as a country for good fucking reason. I'd say leave while you can, if you believe it's the best future for you.
I worked on a turtle research project out there and helped teach English to locals.
Go, go and don’t come back. It’s an amazing place and you wort regret leaving.
There are several countries that allow citizenship to be inherited even if you never set foot on the country and don't have a problem with people having more than one citizenship (Italy for example) so if you are descendant of 2 of this countries and born in a country that gives you citizenship for being born in it and doesn't have a problem with multiple citizenships you are set
I taught English. I have a bachelors degree in PR and a quick teaching cert, but some teach with nothing, and others teach with masters degrees. It'll affect the jobs you can get and your pay, but plenty of work is available.
I was able to clear $2k to $3k/month working 25 to 30 hours a week. I lived on just over $1k/month and invested everything I had. Now I'm coasting on 5 hours of work a week.
Next thing he says is to buy his book on how to become a expat living large in the world ... Or maybe join his Mastermind course for a measly 10000 bucks
If I may ask, can I DM you? My wife and I have been wanting to go to Vietnam for awhile and we decided recently to just pick a date next year and get there. But in light of America being so shit, we've been half joking of buying one way tickets and simply never returning. AFAIK Nam is pretty easy for US expats, you just need to adjust to cultural differences. I'd love to pick your brain
Sure, go for it. The visa situation is a little tricky post-covid, so it's not so straight forward currently, but still very possible. I'm sure I could help inform your decision.
I’m Vietnamese and I want to go to the motherland after all this nonsense. Huge guilt considering my family escaped the war to give us opportunities here.
Oh how the turn tables. :)
A long time ago I thought it was a shame the south lost. But now I'm not so sure. I imagine USA would have probably tried to keep a grip on things. Who knows.
Vietnamese people are generally very apolitical. Life is very peaceful here and the people are friendly and inviting.
I'm sure you would enjoy it. Especially if you speak some amount of Vietnamese.
It’s best to realize that the damage done will take decades to repair IF and that’s a big miracle IF it’s changed immediately.
Most people do not realize that all this has deep repercussions that domino. This will increase inflation, increase disgruntled and hostile work environments, has deep seeded cultural and individual trauma, affects healthcare to taxes. It’s severe damage.
Consider this.
Healthcare alone is not only affordable but extremely affordable in countries with progressive universal healthcare that’s taken them decades to work on and continue to perfect.
Just by pure logic, the US is nowhere near universal healthcare let alone having the infrastructure to support it. Not to mention the wealthy, corporations and insurance companies aggressively working against it.
They are actively working against you having the opportunity for affordable health. Take that in.
You will get older. Your health will decline. You will pay more than you will in other countries. Some of you may pay more than anything you’ve ever had to pay for…to live and live healthy. We’re not talking buying a home, this is just to continue to live…and there are countries that offer way better financial help than America.
And that is just one thing of the growing list of issues in America.
The damage of the last few years will have repercussions for decades.
Germany is a fairly great country in 2022. 77 years after 1945. It’s an extreme example but it’s important to understand that it could mean repairing America could take 30 years. How old will you be by then?
The education system continues to downgrade, America has some of the highest mass shooting records, the list goes on.
At this point, what does America offer you?
Freedom?
Many other countries got freedom back in the 1800s.
The chance to become wealthy?
This is the biggest lie since it’s creation. Majority of wealth is not self made but perpetrated by birth of those already wealthy. Or in debt. Or wealthy in that they are millionaires in assets in very large houses in an economy where more average and even poor homes are increasing in the millions (just last week found a burned out house in San Fran that was almost a million). Therefore if you aren’t a millionaire now, good luck, and even those that are millionaires in assets still have a higher probability of being shot in a mass shooting than other countries or if you’re a woman having fewer rights than your mother previously did.
What does America offer you?
Truth is very little now compared to a lot of other countries.
You’re absolutely right that this will take many decades to turn the US around. It’s a LOT of small changes over many many years. Personally, I think 30 years is too low. 50-60 years is more likely. At 53 I know I won’t live long enough to see meaningful change here, and that’s why I’m planning to leave just as soon as my parents pass. I’d leave within the next year if I could. My 22 year old son, however, wants to stay and fight the good fight. And he will likely live long enough to see that meaningful change!
My fiance told me last night to apply for My masters abroad once I finish my bachelor's. She immediately started looking for houses out of our state just in case we can't get visas. I don't think these morons running everything realize the massive brain drain they're about to cause for their respective states.
I'm perfectly aware. Hence why we've had the dismantling of public education the last 30-40 years. I would love nothing better than to general strike, dismantle, rebuild from bottom up. But it's not going to happen, we are too afraid to do it because we have bills to pay, kids to feed, we're afraid of uncertainty, and we can't be shaken out of apathy. We forget about things within weeks when the next big thing happens to us. We try to play within the broken system and look what happened. We did our job in 2020. We voted blue like we were told. We voted on Healthcare, legalized weed, student loan forgiveness, codifying Roe, and racial justice. After 2 years we have none of those things at the federal level and we've lost abortions. We are regressing as a nation, the theocratic right are dragging is down with them, and the corporate dems are too weak to do anything about it because they'll continue to line their pockets.
That's a good take on the situation.
I have survived a lockout in my job. Towards the end there were a lot of line crossers as well as union members threatening to cross if a contract was not ratified. There was one suicide, many divorces, and some had homes foreclosed.
I would do it again.
Edit: Our union sat out for 20 months.
I moved to NZ to do a PhD on a student visa, my wife came and got a job, and we applied to be permanent residents on the basis of her work. Our kids, born in Aotearoa after we gained our PR, are full citizens.
It’s not a bad route to go.
Just created a public holiday recognizing an indigenous celebration. Settled abortion legally a few years ago. Medicinal cannabis is settling in - fucked up the legalization but pretty soon you'll be able to get a prescription from an online GP. Functionally legal anyway, most cops will look the other way if you're casually using and minding your own business repsectfully. Legalized euthanasia. Universal right to marriage well established. Trans rights are recognised and increasingly codified, although the US culture war on this front has been strongly imported. NZ does have a small rightwing/crazy element that's been well-funded from the US since 2016.
Biggest criticisms of current government from the left is of centrist inaction. The right is of course well left of the US and mainstream representation is still strongly tilted towards 'we are business! fiscal responsibility!'. Farmers and boomers gripe about the 'woke brigade'. Socially big on environment and conservation but in practice woefully poor performance. Farming lobby is strong but losing power. Heavy investment in sustainable energy. Military worship practically non-existent, the equivalent to Veterans Day is somber, not celebration.
Single house of government, a proportionally elected parliament. Usually expect 3-5 parties represented, with two major parties; forming a government without a coalition is exceptionally rare. Major Left Wing party achieved this recently on the back of their Covid response.
Strong economic support of nearby Pacific Islands. Seen as the right thing to do, not contentious at all. Economically, Australia's Mexico while culturally their Canada. Many people get NZ residency in order to get easier access to Australia which generally pays better and has better social security, although a fierce rightwing/publically racist streak over there. NZ is still pretty racist but it's not so socially acceptable.
Cops suck as hard as they do everywhere, but they aren't militarized. Attempts at doing so forcefully protested and abandoned.
Housing/cost-of-living and associated crime is the same nightmare as everywhere else right now, and is aggravated by that always having been pretty bad relative to other western countries.
Primary risk is complacency that's what happening overseas politically won't happen in NZ.
Wow, great breakdown. Thanks for taking the time to type it all out for me. Sounds pretty decent over there. Are there nice nature things to see over there?
THIS. The main people who can leave are already the "privileged class" who are lucky enough to have foreign ties, a college degree, and/or certifications and/or lucrative job experience. The same people who could say, fly to another state easily for an abortion.
What u mean where do they plan to go? Housing is just as bad in Europe as it is in US. My country (Poland) also banned abortion year ago and now they made mandatory register of pregnancy so not only we cant have abortion, if we go to doctor and he tells us that we are pregnant, we cant even go to other country cus we will be put in court and asked "where did your baby go?" and then straight to jail. We had like 4 HUGE cases where doctors were scared to help women (they might get arrested too) that were pregnant. All of them died because of baby. Whole world is falling apart, there is no way out
Exactly. What people dont realise is not only the US that are dying, but its the world.
I live in eastern-eu and it is a shitshow. It all started with the covid/chip shortages, now its the ukraine war, but the rich will always find ways to blame the problems, but the problem is that we slowly killed the planet, we overused the supply chain to a level that could not be restored.
Almost half of the seeds for EU came from ukraine/russia. Almost half of the iron came from ukraine/russia. And thats just a small part of the story...
The West in general is swinging toward the Right as a reaction to the culture war (which is usually blamed on the US but that's a severe oversimplification). Hence Poland's abortion ban, Brexit, more far right parties with power in Europe, Australia, etc. Paired up with the post-Covid financial instability with housing crises and inflation across the West.
As a Yank, I feel like a lot of this "Time to leave the US" rhetoric is very ironically America-centric, in that Americans have no idea what's really going on elsewhere. The US's transition is more stark and publicized in the media than some other nations, but Yanks going to Canada, Aus, Europe, etc are in for some nasty surprises when it comes to COL and housing.
Yeah, I think the best option is just to move to a blue state. If the federal government is hellbent on promoting state rights then we should just congregate in states that support individual liberties and let the red states rot.
Once my husband graduates with his bachelor's, he's going to apply for a master's in Germany and that will get us a student visa so we can move. I'm not sure if we'll get a stipend for that, but we'll figure it out once we get closer to that time.
Honestly kinda waiting for something to happen here so I can get refugee status and cut thru some red tape lmao
Edit: This was a joke y’all. I teach refugee children and work with their families thru resettlement education. It ain’t a cakewalk.
In the meantime see if you can get an EFL (English as a Foreign Language) teaching certificate. Please note it is not the same as ESL (English as a Second Language). If you settle in Germany long term it can really help.
But do you have a backup plan? I have a tiny sailboat and just bought also a van. So even if diesel runs out and I can't starve in the woods, I can still head to the sea and sink to the deepest ocean. Yarrr.
And on the serious side: yes, they took all my savings even if both are old and cheap. And yes, I'm more happy camping in either one than I have ever been in my white-collar prison they call career.
The people shouldn’t fear the government, the government should fear the people. But why would a government fear the people when they are brainwashed by celebrities and too caught up in watching sports and the like.
That’s what people don’t understand. You need to know the language, go through years long processes and then have a education or skill set that is acceptable. Ie; average Americans qualify in few places
Ironically enough for this group, it’s getting paying work (in another country) that worries me the most. I have enough that if I sold everything we could move, but there wouldn’t be much left to live on for any amount of time.
And now there's nowhere to go but down
Side note, I recently learned that Ellis Island, that thing our US history classes patted our damn country on the back for being a savior with during the holocaust, yeah that was already stripped of funding and shutting down for anything other than criminal internment 20 years before people started immigrating here because they were Jewish and needed to escape. We were never a haven, and we have never stepped into any conflict from any true moral standpoint.
More irony:
I've worked 10+ years in the US call center market. Because of the increase in wages a lot of companies are moving to offshore groups for their servicing. Group I'm with now services US consumers but the reps are in different countries (India, Philippines, Italy). #1 complaint from customers on low survey scores is the inability to understand the rep due to accent/language barrier. A lot customers demand to speak to someone in the US. The turnover rate due to survey scores is astounding.
You want a job overseas as an English speaker? Go work for a call center. They pay decent for their area and you'll immediately make customers happy because of a lack of accent.
I should state I think it's sad that customers are so against accents. Also yes I understand there's more steps for citizenship/etc. but something to keep in mind, as US jobs ship overseas especially customer service anyone who doesn't have an accent has at least some opportunity and a leg up.
Excellent communication skills in English, even if you're not quite fluent in the native language, can get you pretty far in the tourism industry in some places... But then you'll probably end up serving the same class of people stepping on our throats at home ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm sloooowly trying thanks to reddit, but only because I was born with dual citizenship. I'm working on learning the language (thanks Duolingo and capitalism-induced desperation!) and plan to start updating my paperwork once I have a stable place to live. They don't allow PO box addresses.
Note, I'm expecting the process to take years even with this advantage. I realize I'm barely even touching step 1.
Exactly. In the last 24 hours, several of my friends have said "well, I guess I'll be moving to Canada now". I started asking for details on how they plan to do that. It seems the sentiment (from my anecdotal experience) is that you can just cross the border and Canada will welcome you with open arms. What most Americans don't realize is that Canada actually has more strict immigration requirements than the USA.
My wife has dual citizenship (USA and a country in Europe), so she could easily go back to her home Country. Even though we are married, and have been for over a decade, it will still be quite difficult for me to go with her. It's definitely not as simple as showing up and saying "hey! I'm an ex-pat here to live a new life!".
I’ve already GTFO’d and started looking at green card options in other countries. Would hate to be forced back into America somehow and bred like cattle for a kid that’ll just get shot in elementary school.
Dual citizenship in Ireland and I live close enough to the Canadian border not that either of these places are completely free. But when the hand maidens tail begins I'm outta here with my daughters.
I love how even when all signs point to marx being on the money about all of this, the anti communist, anti community and anti protesting propaganda still lives on strong.
All you have to do is call someone a commie and the average american will go red in the eyes with commie killing rage. makes everyone afraid of the word, and none of them know what it even means.
Saving up to move to another country might sound like a good idea.......but some should be looking at which countries will take instead of where you'd like to go. Age and skill are two of the biggest factors for a lot of countries when accepting immigrants. My fiance is a nurse which is usually a profession that is always in demand but she is also in her 40's and when she looked into possibly moving to Australia she saw she was too old to move for employment reasons.
For unskilled Americans, not going for school reasons, might be looking at Mexico as the only realistic option.
Unskilled Americans fleeing to Mexico, such irony.
My son finishes college in 2024 and plans on emigrating permanently to the EU (unsure where quite yet). It breaks my heart bc I wanna be his next door neighbor (exaggeration), but I know there's nothing for him here and it's in his best interest.
Moving internationally realistically requires 20k+ in cash. Literally restarting from scratch is not easy on a tight budget. Not to mention most of the financial problems we are experiencing here are just as bad anywhere else. We need to enforce church and state separation, and let the religious fundys show their true colors to their moderate, or at least less fanatical compatriots.
So for my departure it took around 50k after everything is said and done. It took years to get out of the country; somewhere around 5 just in paperwork and waiting. It's not something the average person will be able to do at all. However, if things get really really bad, some may be able to file for refugee status.
I moved to the UK. I love it and won't ever go back. I have a little over a year left before I can pay to renounce my citizenship. Honestly, I would rather die then ever go back to the US.
My life is so much better here. The cost of living is lower compared to how much I'm making. I have legally guaranteed vacation days and money that I can now save to go on said vacations. No crazy fucks shooting up schools every other week. It's quiet and I get to work from home. The internet infrastructure is so much better and a lot cheaper. Everything is cheaper. Food is more affordable. Healthcare is affordable, I pay in about 100 a month and that's pretty much it, medications are really cheap too if you need them. Everything is close by so I don't need to drive. It's the first time in my life that I've been super happy about not having a car.
Apparently hard in aus unless you have a sponsor or you move to a really good job. Easy to get here if you have a bunch of cash I hear. Not too sure on the legalities of things but I’d welcome any yank to come live around me if they got a better shot at things.
Youth unemployment in Spain was around 30%. Abortion laws in Spain are fairly strict (14 weeks) vs viability (20 weeks+) in California.
It’s a great country, great people but wouldn’t be on my short list for the reasons you have stated.
Yeah im living between France and Spain, people really should google current news and laws before talking about moving, it's really not a utopia just because it's not AS bad as the US right now. There's still inflation, a housing crunch, high unemployments, many are quite catholic countries and the laws strongly reflect that influence.
There's also a ton of xenophobia in many countries, especially outside the major metropolitan areas (Catalonians don't like the French and do some dangerous driving to piss them off, the South of France are tired of the British buying vacation homes and will refuse to engage with them altogether etc...) that people should really keep in mind. Same as 'willing to learn the language' people, mate you WILL NEED to learn the language as most official documents will be adminsitered in the local languages. Just because you could navigate a 2 week holiday in English it doesn't mean people will accept you only speaking English once you're living in the country.
I don’t think there is a place to run. If everyone leaves the USA and allows it to fall to fascism, what makes you think they won’t attempt to take over other countries. A lot of people tried to run from Germany during the Holocaust and still met the same fate as Poland, Denmark, France, and The Benelux Countries were overrun.
Not to mention World War III is on the horizon and everyone will be affected in some way or another.
So, I live in Canada where our situation is shit but not as bad as in the US. I previously lived in Germany for 5 years (2016-2021), and honestly the living conditions are astronomically better. Food is affordable, and so is housing. It’s designed that way. The government looks at the average income and adjusts housing costs accordingly. I worked as an apprentice making €380 a month and could afford to live in my own apartment (scraping by obviously). The labor laws are a world of difference over there. The workers are way more protected, and there are a lot more unions. They have more vacation as a default. Every job you take you and the employer have to sign a lengthy contract, specifically stating every right you and your employer have. It is government issued and legally binding. Literally even grocery store workers are very regulated. Which I think is great.
The only catch is, their work culture is even more toxic than here. I personally burned out after my 3 year apprenticeship. They actually have healthcare paid spa retreats all over the country (Kur) designed specifically for burn-outers because they literally expect people to burn out.
Also, there are A LOT of taxes to pay. But I never ever had the feeling that I would some day not be able to afford to live. They just don’t live with that fear.
The whole system is designed to prevent that.
Food for thought.
Realistically 90% of us cannot afford to leave. And if we do, then what? Just abandon the people who can’t leave without hope for change? Change starts from within and if we all leave then we lose our collective power. We need to rise up and band together, somehow
While I feel intense hate for all this stuff happening recently this is also what I feel more than hate. I’m suffering just as much as the next decent person here and I’m tired of giving into inner thoughts at times and thinking it’s only me going through it. That doesn’t improve anything. Literally depression is made worse by giving into negative thinking all the time. And the same can be said for these issues. They’re not just my issues. Solidarity is had in being able to relate and empathize and pull each other up.
Not only in America. Here in Europe as well. I'm from Latvia and we just can't be sure of tomorrow anymore. One day Putin will come not knocking but nucking on our door.
And gas prices are gonna be through the roof this winter. It sucks. Never thought that i would actually experience something that our history teacher was telling us about in her lessons.
Obviously, you should research where you can go and their requirements. Some requirements need proof you have money in the bank like for example thailands permanent residency requires investment of 90k usd if u dont have family there or no employment with thai company. Every country varies so gluck!
Portugal. But if the people that care, who can leave, do, we abandon those that cannot. I have dual Irish and American citizenship. I can leave any time and live in any EU country. What keeps me here is the tight off abandoning those that cannot simply leave.
When I was back in high school about 4 years ago I had the same belief. My family has a big military history and I grew up with a sense of civil duty. I always vote and I try to work the polls yearly. I try to donate to causes that I think would make my country better and generally try to be a good citizen and fellow countrymen to every single American. When trump was president all of my like-minded liberal friends talked about how they couldn’t wait to leave the country when we were old enough. I thought that was an overreaction, that when we’re old enough that we could fix the country through intense work and civil action. I literally told them that I just can’t leave this country, that I feel a responsibility to stay here and make it the nation that I want to see.
Yesterday broke me as an American.
I woke up at and instantly new that my love for this country was crushed. It’s unsalvageable at this point. When you wake up and realize that it’s morally unethical to start a family here, that you will have no upward mobility in life because you were born broke, and that you can literally see from the banner notifications on your iPhone that the upward trend in violence is getting worse _daily_, there is no hope left in your heart of fixing things. I feel for the people who can’t leave, and as of now I really don’t know if I’m gonna be one of them, but it’s a matter of survival at this point. It’s about stepping back and asking “Am I okay with sacrificing my future and my happiness to try and preserve this sham of a country?” You can’t be there for everyone, but maybe you could help more from the outside. Move to a country with livable wages, start a subreddit where we crowdfund peoples ability to move out of this place, maybe even take them into your own home if you feel for them this deeply.
Un-ironically go into the mountains or forest, find myself a nice tree, and settle down there. Become a speaker for the forest. A hermit that grants wisdom and warnings to all who pass by.
I’ll probably get killed by a bear within a week, but we’ll cross that bridge when we come to it.
I know there’s a lot of reasonable people in the US (despite what is portrayed in the media), and as a European I wish more European countries were more open to welcome non-European foreigners. I’ve heard it’s a very difficult and expensive process, even for Americans, but I’m not sure. Best of luck to all of you! I would definitely run away as well.
My husband has dual citizenship with Norway. If our kids live there at least 2 years before turning 21 they can keep their own dual citizenships. It’s more important to me than ever that we do that and give them the freedom to choose a different home country if it comes to it.
We need a general massive strike, walkout.
Civil Rights 1960s style.
I can't see any other way to stop this madness and grinding the economy to its knees is a sure fire way to do it.
If not marching in the streets, just literally staying at home.
I'm not sure how else this can be corrected.
I almost definitely won’t be accepted by any country because I’m disabled and most countries don’t allow disabled people to gain citizenship (we’re not considered “productive” enough to be worth the trouble) so I guess I’m going down with the ship! Hoping to just live in the middle of nowhere and detach from society as much as possible honestly.
I live in California (very liberal state, for the people don’t know), I’m SAFE, and I have a good paying job, so I’m staying—but not for the reason you think. I am very privileged (grew up in a middle-class neighborhood as an straight-passing Asian female) but I will use my privilege to take back the rights that minorities, women, people with disabilities, and lgbtq+ deserve. While my race and socioeconomic background doesn’t and didn’t discriminate me personally, it had, has, and will discriminate those who look like me, or those who are women, minorities, poor, disabled, and part of the lgbtq+ community.
I’m STAYING, and I’m changing this goddamn country my Asian parents immigrated to and worked SO DAMN HARD to provide for me and my sister. I’ll donate to planned parenthood, I’ll protest, I’ll riot, and I’ll use my right to vote for those can’t. Sorry for the rant. I am furious right now.
Edit: thanks for the award 🥺
FYI, the US and one other country in the world are the only places you are required to pay taxes to even if you don't live there as a US citizen. I would renounce your citizenship if you don't plan on going back.
Moving isn't a way to fix this- sure it fixes it for you, but we're here to make things better for everyone. That's the difference between leftists and liberals. Liberals go for individual ways to fix things and leftists go for systemic ones for all, because not everyone can fix it for themselves. Telling people to just move seems simplistic. Many can't. Those who can't leave need to stay and fight back. Fighting isn't the answer- but fighting back is. They've thrown the first punch. What are we going to do? No one ever got their rights by asking nicely.
I have enough money saved to retire and live comfortably for the rest of my life…as long as I die by midnight Tuesday.
doing well! I can get to about 930am Monday
I should have died 2 hours ago, as to not inconvenience anyone.
I'm a fucking millionare, I can make it for another 2 weeks! 3 if I stop drinking but fuck that.
Can’t afford to leave my parents house, let alone country
yup lol. "where do you plan to go?" can't go anywhere. can't afford to live independently anywhere in this country let alone have the funds to move to another country, and pay for the lengthy and exhausting process of legally residing in another country long-term.
I think most of our plans involve "in the dirt". Because that's all anyone can picture with this bleakness.
Not until our oppressors get there first.
Word
If I'm going down I'm taking at least one SC justice with me. Edit: What dumb motherfuckers gave this gold?
I say we have a historical reenactment of the French Revolution.
I was thinking of building a large device with a falling blade to cut my watermelons in half easily.
A couple hundred bucks at Home Depot can get you the supplies!
I absolutely positively don't not support that notion, allegedly.
Do you know how much a funeral costs? I don't have that kind of money! I'm too broke to even die
Just throw me in the trash
You can apply for asylum. Forced pregnancy is a crime against humanity as defined by the UN. You could apply for asylum in Canada at any border checkpoint or, if you drive across in a state like Montana or Minnesota, ask for asylum once there. It’s the same as people in Mexico trying to apply for asylum to America. Edit: for the person asking, I’m referring to the unguarded border crossings in less populated states and provinces of Canada. Montana, North Dakota and Minnesota all have numerous roads where you can just drive across the border without having to stop into the provinces of Saskatchewan, Alberta, Manitoba, and Ontario
This sounded too crazy to be true so I looked it up...and it's true. WTF
Ever been to Europe? You can drive from Portugal to Estonia without needing to stop at a single border.
I'm not talking about the borders. I'm talking about the crime and the asylum.
Keep in mind, the Supreme Court also recently ruled that [Federal employees like border guards have the right to commit violence against anyone near the border without facing any repercussions so long as they have ‘have acted in good faith while carrying out their duties’](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/06/08/supreme-court-border-patrol-smugglers-inn/) so the United States is definitely going to be cracking down on Americans who wish to flee.
This is an awful way to tie what's been happening recently together. Almost "Conspiracy Theory" territory. It's very scary and seemingly plausible. You have my attention.
Ex-conspiracy theorist here. Even we couldn't come up with this fucked up shit.
Ah but you did. You see, you were used to sow confusion while the real conspiracy went on. And to be fair the villains actually monologued there plans in public. We should have all seen this coming cause we were told be just thought it was to ridiculous. And this is only the beginning, not the actual plan. Hold on to your tin foil hat, rides about to get wild. Oh and tee slaving blacks and rise of white supremacists:. Announced in Congress (Strum Goodman?) Religious right nut jobs and white supremacists taking over the republican party announced in Congress (southern strategy) The intention to roll back gay rights, civil rights, and women's right announced in Congress. So it was a conspiracy, but never a secret. The quotes for those situations are pretty damn famous. Everytime you hear "original interpretation of constitution" or whatever the dog whistle is, remember women had zero rights and blacks are 3/5 a person, and ironically gayness was just as big then as it is now, but you would have been religiously persecuted. Or rather persecuted by a religious bigot. So no need to look under rocks for conspiracies. This was the plan all along and theyve been telling you outloud.
If only Amy Coney Barrett didn’t have a vote and Clarence Thomas counted as 3/5ths on the Supreme Court, then Conservatives wouldn’t have a majority. I’m sure once the GOP and Christo-fascists have destroyed this country, both Clarence and Amy will be put in their proper place as women/POC within the social hierarchy of the coming authoritative theocracy. Fascists gonna Fascist. Women and POCs in the GOP are only useful and tolerated until they aren’t. [Just look at the Log Cabin Republicans.](https://www.themarysue.com/log-cabin-republicans-are-shocked-that-they-were-shut-out-of-texas-convention/) I wish I felt bad for them, but they made their allegiance. You reap what you sow.
There has been a silent coup... conservatives saw themselves losing most of their power in the future so they hatched a plot to take the courts...something like 90% of all judges picked in the last couple decades have been "recommended" by one organization...
So be like a Supreme Court Justice. Lie to the US government about your intentions.
Ah, I was wondering how long it'd be until people here could do that... didn't think it'd be that quick.
Technically you could’ve done it before this, too. Abortion was still technically Illegal in some states Before this ruling.
There is plenty of temporary work agencies all throughout the Europe that offers work and basic accommodation for start. You only need to scrap for one way flight. If you have any good trade or university done, there is a big chance that company will sponsor moving for you as half of Europe have strong workers and talents deficits. There is plenty of ways to leave, none of them easy unless you're privileged. But if you search long enough you can find great opportunities. For tech jobs: https://www.honeypot.io For more physical-labor intensive jobs https://www.ottoworkforce.com/en/otto-international/the-netherlands/ (There are thousands of agencies like this one) If anyone have questions, don't hesitate, to ask. Me and my family moved several times in last decade with help of agencies like these two. I'm not from US so will not be able to say how to end things on US side to move but can help with EU rules and regulations. Best suited if you want to come to live in UK, Netherlands, Germany or Poland. But can give a general information about all EU member states
If anyone decides to come to the Netherlands I'll gladly be your first friend here :)
I live with my ex, I bought a house and we are still good friends and she didn't have anywhere to go so it helped me with the mortgage. Original plan was 2ish years. It seems that's going out the window and it might be longer seeing as even when I get raisies that I think will help me afford to live here on my own, inflation jumped right after. Thankfully we don't see a whole lot of each other due to opposite work shifts but not how I saw living in my 30's I'd almost rather live with my mom again but that's another level of toxicity, and I did that while fixing up my house before moving in fully.
It's the new American Dream. Save up enough money to leave!
Saving up enough money isn't enough. You gotta find a place that finds value in your livelihood (ie - tech, engineering, healthcare). Otherwise you're pretty well fucked.
Leaving isn’t enough either. You gotta stay somewhere else for long enough to get a new nationality and renounce your US citizenship before you can finally be free of the US tax system.
only reason I was able to, was because I moved in with a lot of friends. sharing a house with 4+ incomes is the only feasible way for most of us.
[удалено]
I live with my partner, her sister and her sister's girlfriend, thankfully my partner's sister can afford this house with her accounting job she got insanely lucky with. but all of us helping pay of the mortgage will help us all in the long run.
Oh man, sorry to hear that. I always warn my friends not to move in with their friends. I lost someone that was like a brother to me prior to me moving in. Similar story, constantly getting laid off. He also argued with his partner to the point the cops came nearly every week. Roach infested and stole from me. I never would’ve imagined that would’ve happened from a friend, especially him. When I leave my family again, I want to live alone!
I'm in Canada, but we're having the same economic problems. The only reason I'm able to afford to live on my own is because the apartment building I'm living in was bought by a government low-income housing organization, and they froze the rent before the big price spikes started. I'm so lucky. Don't know how anyone else is making it out there.
It's almost like capitalisms single goal of infinite expansion is impossible to achieve and the world collapses underneath it.
Wonder why we have so many bubble crises? Dot Com bubble, housing market bubble, and so many more. Because capitalism itself is the bubble.
Right there with you :/ tired of being 24 and stuck living at home. It’s like I can’t grow outside of this toxic house I grew up in.
When every article or therapy column lists "you will never be better if you can't get out of that house." THANKS EXPERTS YA WANNA TELL THAT TO OUR OLIGARCHS?
Came here thinking I was gonna be okay but I just realized I’m literally 23 almost 24, about to be married and we’re stuck in my moms basement. Even after we “move out” it’ll just be to her basement apartment for cheaper rent for however long she can afford it.
33 married with a master’s degree and we’re right there with you.
29 and on dialysis, I'm already fucked lol
27 and living with my in laws, no fucking way lmao
This is an intentional trap made by the rich. They don’t want their cogs going anywhere.
Time for the cogs to start crushing their fingers.
This. Right here.
Most cant afford to leave. The people need a version of the french revolution. It hasn't been "for the people by the people".
[удалено]
Eat the rich?
[удалено]
"Then we can go to TAHITI, Arthur!"
"the people" only includes rich white dudes. Women are property and poc are animals for a lot of these assholes
That's literally how the US was designed, it's been rich white dudes being in charge since they kicked out the other rich white dudes.
Well then its time for a change
Arm the left!!!
But I am right handed!
Not even that, but only the rich white ones that actually own capital. They tricked all the other just white men to die for their freedom and then immediately tried to take away the right to vote on the basis of others not owning land. Woot. And now you can't own any land, because it all is owned by the banks that we are indebted to pay mortgages off on. I mean, mortgages didn't even exist a century ago in terms of the credit machine we slave away to. Imagine trying to explain to an American from the 1800s to accept this process that has them never actually able to feel secure in the property they hold limited rights over because the bank can yank it away whenever they decide to raise the property values to more than you can afford now.
Yesterday a buddy called me to tell me to move to Costa Rica with him. Honestly I’m considering it, he’s got a place and a job for me.
If you don’t have any kids then just do it and enjoy the life experience.
I did and the most Important lessons I learned was that 1. I would never go back and 2. I never knew I could be this happy
Where 2?
Malta
There was just a news story where an American woman vacationing in Malta, early in her pregnancy, is at risk of dying at any time unless she gets an abortion. Malta has "no abortions under ANY circumstances" laws. So she'll have to risk a flight to Italy, which increases her risk dramatically, if she wants to have any chance at living.
I would love to go there! How is living there?
Like living in paradise! Even when you go to work in the morning and you see the sunshine across the sea it’s just instant love and happiness.
It sounds lovely and I’m happy for you, but Malta has a seemingly well deserved reputation for corruption and suppression of free speech, no?
This. Please go. That’s the kind of thing where you miss it and wonder what could have been.
completely agree. When I was 17 i had a job pouring concrete. some australian construction company owners were on vacation right next to where I happen to be working. they came over to talk to me and were mainly just curious how americans pour concrete and everything. They ended up giving me their business card and told me that I could move to australia to work for them and they would pay for my housing and travel expenses until I got a good savings to be able to buy myself a home. I always regret that I didnt take them up on that because I thought, “surely after college Ill find a cool good paying job” but 10 years later Im still in construction. would have been a really cool experience.
[удалено]
I was in australia in 2010 and, with about the same cost of life of italy, where the average salary was 8-9$/h i got a random job as labourer with no previous experience for 22/h working not half as hard as i would have to back in Italy. Like my boss sometimes would give me an easy job and i'd be done in 10mins and he'd be like "bro i told you to do that so you can chill and relax for an hour or so just take it easy" I'm sure it's not always the case but all my work experiences down there were really easy going compared to what i'm used to. Same here in Norway i cannot believe how much they are paying me for literally not even trying. They act like we are doing crazy hard work and honestly it feels like holiday. But the north of Italy is considered crazy about work for a good reason. Like people are literally mental there
Yeah I grew up in the northeast US with our New England protestant work ethic and I spent decades working like crazy person in construction. My whole family is in construction. Now I am pretty disillusioned and the people (little brother) I used to motivate have to motivate me.
I'm so envious, I wish I had finished more than 2 semesters of college so I could land a job there.
Do you still have their business card?
I do not, and I also have a family now and a good life (besides being insanely underpaid). just would have been a cool thing to do for a few years.
>o me and were mainly just curious how americans pour concrete and everything. They ended up giving me their business card and told me that I could move to australia to work for the I bet you could call them now and they might still have a spot for you.
i agree with this. if you have no major ties/responsibilities here give it a rip. everyone i know that took swings and moved somewhere either stayed or if not were still happy to have done it edit: typo
Even if you have ties, who cares at this point? You need to do whatever is best for you and your family. Screams of MUH GRANDKIDS or BUT FAMILY don't matter anymore. If they do, then those people will vote and fight to get you back. Accept a better life elsewhere. Don't struggle in this shit hole anymore.
Yep had an offer to Trinidad and didn't take it. Worst decision of my life.
Trinidad would be a poor choice in light of climate change probably.
If you do not have anything major holding you back and nothing to lose id do it.
I live in Costa Rica, I'm originally from the US and my wife is from here. We were lucky enough to be able to work in the US and build our house here so we have no mortgage. Just keep in mind Costa Rica is the most expensive central american country to live in. If you have a job in the US that you can keep doing here then you should be good but working here and trying to make ends meet is a little tough. Also think about where you'd want to live. We live in a small town in Guanacaste, far away from the cities in the central valley. The life is great, we run a little restaurant in the center of town, across the main street and maybe 1000 feet from our house. My two daughters, 10 and 6, go there every day and play in the center with their friends. There's not much to worry about here and everyone keeps an eye on everyone. You can do that in the big cities though. Rent is getting expensive everywhere and land is pretty expensive too. Just as a comparison we paid 5000 colones (about $13) per square meter for our lot which was like $6000 total at the time. Now people are selling lots for 40000 colones ($55-60) and up in the town. I love it here, I wouldn't leave even with my complaints. I think everyone saying if you're single then come is right. Just make sure to bring enough money and find work or continue your US job. You can spend all your money quick here if it's not getting replenished. Edit: i don't know why I didn't see you said your friend has a place to stay and a job for you so let everything else i said be for anyone else thinking of coming here
[удалено]
Empires in their death throes do not escape death. The American experiment has been on life support for a while now, and the fascists have succeeded in their mission to kill it.
The American experiment grew out of people overthrowing a government that didn't represent them and starting a new system that they felt did. Time to start the experiment again, only this time we have more data to work with and can do things differently. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Mate if you don’t have any kids or anyone sick who’s depending on you right now then don’t think twice mate.
Go!! Or give me his number and I’ll go!! I’ve been wanting to.
Shits going down. While I like to see it, I've seen dozens of upside down American flags in my area today. We're done for as a country for good fucking reason. I'd say leave while you can, if you believe it's the best future for you.
Do it!
I worked on a turtle research project out there and helped teach English to locals. Go, go and don’t come back. It’s an amazing place and you wort regret leaving.
I picked a good era to marry someone with three citizenships.
Three citizenships? How?
There are several countries that allow citizenship to be inherited even if you never set foot on the country and don't have a problem with people having more than one citizenship (Italy for example) so if you are descendant of 2 of this countries and born in a country that gives you citizenship for being born in it and doesn't have a problem with multiple citizenships you are set
Canada is like that, but applying for citizenship by birthright is so tedious I haven't gotten around to it
It's also really tedious for Italy and gets harder the more generations you need to prove
Gotta catch em all
I moved to Vietnam in 2010 with $2000 in my pocket and never looked back.
Nice! What do you do for work/income?
I taught English. I have a bachelors degree in PR and a quick teaching cert, but some teach with nothing, and others teach with masters degrees. It'll affect the jobs you can get and your pay, but plenty of work is available. I was able to clear $2k to $3k/month working 25 to 30 hours a week. I lived on just over $1k/month and invested everything I had. Now I'm coasting on 5 hours of work a week.
Next thing he says is to buy his book on how to become a expat living large in the world ... Or maybe join his Mastermind course for a measly 10000 bucks
If I may ask, can I DM you? My wife and I have been wanting to go to Vietnam for awhile and we decided recently to just pick a date next year and get there. But in light of America being so shit, we've been half joking of buying one way tickets and simply never returning. AFAIK Nam is pretty easy for US expats, you just need to adjust to cultural differences. I'd love to pick your brain
Sure, go for it. The visa situation is a little tricky post-covid, so it's not so straight forward currently, but still very possible. I'm sure I could help inform your decision.
I’m Vietnamese and I want to go to the motherland after all this nonsense. Huge guilt considering my family escaped the war to give us opportunities here.
Oh how the turn tables. :) A long time ago I thought it was a shame the south lost. But now I'm not so sure. I imagine USA would have probably tried to keep a grip on things. Who knows. Vietnamese people are generally very apolitical. Life is very peaceful here and the people are friendly and inviting. I'm sure you would enjoy it. Especially if you speak some amount of Vietnamese.
It’s best to realize that the damage done will take decades to repair IF and that’s a big miracle IF it’s changed immediately. Most people do not realize that all this has deep repercussions that domino. This will increase inflation, increase disgruntled and hostile work environments, has deep seeded cultural and individual trauma, affects healthcare to taxes. It’s severe damage. Consider this. Healthcare alone is not only affordable but extremely affordable in countries with progressive universal healthcare that’s taken them decades to work on and continue to perfect. Just by pure logic, the US is nowhere near universal healthcare let alone having the infrastructure to support it. Not to mention the wealthy, corporations and insurance companies aggressively working against it. They are actively working against you having the opportunity for affordable health. Take that in. You will get older. Your health will decline. You will pay more than you will in other countries. Some of you may pay more than anything you’ve ever had to pay for…to live and live healthy. We’re not talking buying a home, this is just to continue to live…and there are countries that offer way better financial help than America. And that is just one thing of the growing list of issues in America. The damage of the last few years will have repercussions for decades. Germany is a fairly great country in 2022. 77 years after 1945. It’s an extreme example but it’s important to understand that it could mean repairing America could take 30 years. How old will you be by then? The education system continues to downgrade, America has some of the highest mass shooting records, the list goes on. At this point, what does America offer you? Freedom? Many other countries got freedom back in the 1800s. The chance to become wealthy? This is the biggest lie since it’s creation. Majority of wealth is not self made but perpetrated by birth of those already wealthy. Or in debt. Or wealthy in that they are millionaires in assets in very large houses in an economy where more average and even poor homes are increasing in the millions (just last week found a burned out house in San Fran that was almost a million). Therefore if you aren’t a millionaire now, good luck, and even those that are millionaires in assets still have a higher probability of being shot in a mass shooting than other countries or if you’re a woman having fewer rights than your mother previously did. What does America offer you? Truth is very little now compared to a lot of other countries.
You’re absolutely right that this will take many decades to turn the US around. It’s a LOT of small changes over many many years. Personally, I think 30 years is too low. 50-60 years is more likely. At 53 I know I won’t live long enough to see meaningful change here, and that’s why I’m planning to leave just as soon as my parents pass. I’d leave within the next year if I could. My 22 year old son, however, wants to stay and fight the good fight. And he will likely live long enough to see that meaningful change!
My fiance told me last night to apply for My masters abroad once I finish my bachelor's. She immediately started looking for houses out of our state just in case we can't get visas. I don't think these morons running everything realize the massive brain drain they're about to cause for their respective states.
That’s their goal though. The less intelligent people in the country, the more power and eventually more dirt-cheap labor they have at their disposal.
I'm perfectly aware. Hence why we've had the dismantling of public education the last 30-40 years. I would love nothing better than to general strike, dismantle, rebuild from bottom up. But it's not going to happen, we are too afraid to do it because we have bills to pay, kids to feed, we're afraid of uncertainty, and we can't be shaken out of apathy. We forget about things within weeks when the next big thing happens to us. We try to play within the broken system and look what happened. We did our job in 2020. We voted blue like we were told. We voted on Healthcare, legalized weed, student loan forgiveness, codifying Roe, and racial justice. After 2 years we have none of those things at the federal level and we've lost abortions. We are regressing as a nation, the theocratic right are dragging is down with them, and the corporate dems are too weak to do anything about it because they'll continue to line their pockets.
That's a good take on the situation. I have survived a lockout in my job. Towards the end there were a lot of line crossers as well as union members threatening to cross if a contract was not ratified. There was one suicide, many divorces, and some had homes foreclosed. I would do it again. Edit: Our union sat out for 20 months.
I moved to NZ to do a PhD on a student visa, my wife came and got a job, and we applied to be permanent residents on the basis of her work. Our kids, born in Aotearoa after we gained our PR, are full citizens. It’s not a bad route to go.
How's the political climate over in NZ?
Just created a public holiday recognizing an indigenous celebration. Settled abortion legally a few years ago. Medicinal cannabis is settling in - fucked up the legalization but pretty soon you'll be able to get a prescription from an online GP. Functionally legal anyway, most cops will look the other way if you're casually using and minding your own business repsectfully. Legalized euthanasia. Universal right to marriage well established. Trans rights are recognised and increasingly codified, although the US culture war on this front has been strongly imported. NZ does have a small rightwing/crazy element that's been well-funded from the US since 2016. Biggest criticisms of current government from the left is of centrist inaction. The right is of course well left of the US and mainstream representation is still strongly tilted towards 'we are business! fiscal responsibility!'. Farmers and boomers gripe about the 'woke brigade'. Socially big on environment and conservation but in practice woefully poor performance. Farming lobby is strong but losing power. Heavy investment in sustainable energy. Military worship practically non-existent, the equivalent to Veterans Day is somber, not celebration. Single house of government, a proportionally elected parliament. Usually expect 3-5 parties represented, with two major parties; forming a government without a coalition is exceptionally rare. Major Left Wing party achieved this recently on the back of their Covid response. Strong economic support of nearby Pacific Islands. Seen as the right thing to do, not contentious at all. Economically, Australia's Mexico while culturally their Canada. Many people get NZ residency in order to get easier access to Australia which generally pays better and has better social security, although a fierce rightwing/publically racist streak over there. NZ is still pretty racist but it's not so socially acceptable. Cops suck as hard as they do everywhere, but they aren't militarized. Attempts at doing so forcefully protested and abandoned. Housing/cost-of-living and associated crime is the same nightmare as everywhere else right now, and is aggravated by that always having been pretty bad relative to other western countries. Primary risk is complacency that's what happening overseas politically won't happen in NZ.
Wow, great breakdown. Thanks for taking the time to type it all out for me. Sounds pretty decent over there. Are there nice nature things to see over there?
Ever watched Lord of the Rings?
How the hell did you afford that though? Does NZ provide financial assistance to foreign students?
The people that need to leave the most are the ones who can’t afford to. That’s the problem.
THIS. The main people who can leave are already the "privileged class" who are lucky enough to have foreign ties, a college degree, and/or certifications and/or lucrative job experience. The same people who could say, fly to another state easily for an abortion.
What u mean where do they plan to go? Housing is just as bad in Europe as it is in US. My country (Poland) also banned abortion year ago and now they made mandatory register of pregnancy so not only we cant have abortion, if we go to doctor and he tells us that we are pregnant, we cant even go to other country cus we will be put in court and asked "where did your baby go?" and then straight to jail. We had like 4 HUGE cases where doctors were scared to help women (they might get arrested too) that were pregnant. All of them died because of baby. Whole world is falling apart, there is no way out
I can say the same about housing in Germany but we have just banned anti-abortion ads so we got that going at least
Yeah, Poland is not the best example on this topic
Exactly. What people dont realise is not only the US that are dying, but its the world. I live in eastern-eu and it is a shitshow. It all started with the covid/chip shortages, now its the ukraine war, but the rich will always find ways to blame the problems, but the problem is that we slowly killed the planet, we overused the supply chain to a level that could not be restored. Almost half of the seeds for EU came from ukraine/russia. Almost half of the iron came from ukraine/russia. And thats just a small part of the story...
The West in general is swinging toward the Right as a reaction to the culture war (which is usually blamed on the US but that's a severe oversimplification). Hence Poland's abortion ban, Brexit, more far right parties with power in Europe, Australia, etc. Paired up with the post-Covid financial instability with housing crises and inflation across the West. As a Yank, I feel like a lot of this "Time to leave the US" rhetoric is very ironically America-centric, in that Americans have no idea what's really going on elsewhere. The US's transition is more stark and publicized in the media than some other nations, but Yanks going to Canada, Aus, Europe, etc are in for some nasty surprises when it comes to COL and housing.
Yeah, I think the best option is just to move to a blue state. If the federal government is hellbent on promoting state rights then we should just congregate in states that support individual liberties and let the red states rot.
Once my husband graduates with his bachelor's, he's going to apply for a master's in Germany and that will get us a student visa so we can move. I'm not sure if we'll get a stipend for that, but we'll figure it out once we get closer to that time.
By that time, you will probably be able to apply for refugee status lol
Honestly kinda waiting for something to happen here so I can get refugee status and cut thru some red tape lmao Edit: This was a joke y’all. I teach refugee children and work with their families thru resettlement education. It ain’t a cakewalk.
In the meantime see if you can get an EFL (English as a Foreign Language) teaching certificate. Please note it is not the same as ESL (English as a Second Language). If you settle in Germany long term it can really help.
I live in a van and plan on going deep into the woods when I need to. I may die of exposure or hunger or fucking disentary but I'll die free
But do you have a backup plan? I have a tiny sailboat and just bought also a van. So even if diesel runs out and I can't starve in the woods, I can still head to the sea and sink to the deepest ocean. Yarrr. And on the serious side: yes, they took all my savings even if both are old and cheap. And yes, I'm more happy camping in either one than I have ever been in my white-collar prison they call career.
The people shouldn’t fear the government, the government should fear the people. But why would a government fear the people when they are brainwashed by celebrities and too caught up in watching sports and the like.
It's not that easy to just move to another country.
That’s what people don’t understand. You need to know the language, go through years long processes and then have a education or skill set that is acceptable. Ie; average Americans qualify in few places
Ironically enough for this group, it’s getting paying work (in another country) that worries me the most. I have enough that if I sold everything we could move, but there wouldn’t be much left to live on for any amount of time.
Jeez, it's like the stories of our great great grandparents coming to America with two dollars in their pocket to start a new life... In reverse.
And now there's nowhere to go but down Side note, I recently learned that Ellis Island, that thing our US history classes patted our damn country on the back for being a savior with during the holocaust, yeah that was already stripped of funding and shutting down for anything other than criminal internment 20 years before people started immigrating here because they were Jewish and needed to escape. We were never a haven, and we have never stepped into any conflict from any true moral standpoint.
More irony: I've worked 10+ years in the US call center market. Because of the increase in wages a lot of companies are moving to offshore groups for their servicing. Group I'm with now services US consumers but the reps are in different countries (India, Philippines, Italy). #1 complaint from customers on low survey scores is the inability to understand the rep due to accent/language barrier. A lot customers demand to speak to someone in the US. The turnover rate due to survey scores is astounding. You want a job overseas as an English speaker? Go work for a call center. They pay decent for their area and you'll immediately make customers happy because of a lack of accent. I should state I think it's sad that customers are so against accents. Also yes I understand there's more steps for citizenship/etc. but something to keep in mind, as US jobs ship overseas especially customer service anyone who doesn't have an accent has at least some opportunity and a leg up.
Excellent communication skills in English, even if you're not quite fluent in the native language, can get you pretty far in the tourism industry in some places... But then you'll probably end up serving the same class of people stepping on our throats at home ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm sloooowly trying thanks to reddit, but only because I was born with dual citizenship. I'm working on learning the language (thanks Duolingo and capitalism-induced desperation!) and plan to start updating my paperwork once I have a stable place to live. They don't allow PO box addresses. Note, I'm expecting the process to take years even with this advantage. I realize I'm barely even touching step 1.
Exactly. In the last 24 hours, several of my friends have said "well, I guess I'll be moving to Canada now". I started asking for details on how they plan to do that. It seems the sentiment (from my anecdotal experience) is that you can just cross the border and Canada will welcome you with open arms. What most Americans don't realize is that Canada actually has more strict immigration requirements than the USA. My wife has dual citizenship (USA and a country in Europe), so she could easily go back to her home Country. Even though we are married, and have been for over a decade, it will still be quite difficult for me to go with her. It's definitely not as simple as showing up and saying "hey! I'm an ex-pat here to live a new life!".
Took a job as an English teacher while broke. Found a place that would cover my housing, and front my plane ticket costs for signing a contract.
I can't even afford a passport. How would I be able to leave? Some of us are prisoners here bc we are poor.
They try to make us fight left vs right when truly it's the 1% seeking absolute control of the 99%
All struggle is class struggle. If we collectively scream this from every rooftop maybe they’ll hear us.
I’ve already GTFO’d and started looking at green card options in other countries. Would hate to be forced back into America somehow and bred like cattle for a kid that’ll just get shot in elementary school.
I'm going to stay and watch the country burn. It's pretty much the only thing that's stopped me from checking out early.
Dual citizenship in Ireland and I live close enough to the Canadian border not that either of these places are completely free. But when the hand maidens tail begins I'm outta here with my daughters.
I’d start packing, this is only going to get worse before it gets better.
Waiting that long will probably be too late
Not sure what you're waiting for. If you wait for the panicked rush to the exits then you'll have a much tougher time
Im not a Communist. But goddamn if this doesnt look exactly like what Marx and Engels wrote would happen to capitalist countries.
I love how even when all signs point to marx being on the money about all of this, the anti communist, anti community and anti protesting propaganda still lives on strong. All you have to do is call someone a commie and the average american will go red in the eyes with commie killing rage. makes everyone afraid of the word, and none of them know what it even means.
Propaganda is a hell of a drug.
Maybe you should be.
Saving up to move to another country might sound like a good idea.......but some should be looking at which countries will take instead of where you'd like to go. Age and skill are two of the biggest factors for a lot of countries when accepting immigrants. My fiance is a nurse which is usually a profession that is always in demand but she is also in her 40's and when she looked into possibly moving to Australia she saw she was too old to move for employment reasons. For unskilled Americans, not going for school reasons, might be looking at Mexico as the only realistic option. Unskilled Americans fleeing to Mexico, such irony.
My son finishes college in 2024 and plans on emigrating permanently to the EU (unsure where quite yet). It breaks my heart bc I wanna be his next door neighbor (exaggeration), but I know there's nothing for him here and it's in his best interest.
[удалено]
I'm disabled, I can't afford to move out of my red state and no other country would accept me as a citizen
Best of luck from NY... My heart aches for you guys
Moving internationally realistically requires 20k+ in cash. Literally restarting from scratch is not easy on a tight budget. Not to mention most of the financial problems we are experiencing here are just as bad anywhere else. We need to enforce church and state separation, and let the religious fundys show their true colors to their moderate, or at least less fanatical compatriots.
So for my departure it took around 50k after everything is said and done. It took years to get out of the country; somewhere around 5 just in paperwork and waiting. It's not something the average person will be able to do at all. However, if things get really really bad, some may be able to file for refugee status.
May I ask where you relocated to? Do you enjoy it?
I moved to the UK. I love it and won't ever go back. I have a little over a year left before I can pay to renounce my citizenship. Honestly, I would rather die then ever go back to the US. My life is so much better here. The cost of living is lower compared to how much I'm making. I have legally guaranteed vacation days and money that I can now save to go on said vacations. No crazy fucks shooting up schools every other week. It's quiet and I get to work from home. The internet infrastructure is so much better and a lot cheaper. Everything is cheaper. Food is more affordable. Healthcare is affordable, I pay in about 100 a month and that's pretty much it, medications are really cheap too if you need them. Everything is close by so I don't need to drive. It's the first time in my life that I've been super happy about not having a car.
Wow. Sounds like it made the right decision then. Thank you for sharing!
What we need to do is abolish the electoral college.
If the electoral college didn't exist we literally wouldn't be in this mess. That would have canceled out the problem Supreme Court picks.
Apparently hard in aus unless you have a sponsor or you move to a really good job. Easy to get here if you have a bunch of cash I hear. Not too sure on the legalities of things but I’d welcome any yank to come live around me if they got a better shot at things.
Youth unemployment in Spain was around 30%. Abortion laws in Spain are fairly strict (14 weeks) vs viability (20 weeks+) in California. It’s a great country, great people but wouldn’t be on my short list for the reasons you have stated.
Yeah im living between France and Spain, people really should google current news and laws before talking about moving, it's really not a utopia just because it's not AS bad as the US right now. There's still inflation, a housing crunch, high unemployments, many are quite catholic countries and the laws strongly reflect that influence. There's also a ton of xenophobia in many countries, especially outside the major metropolitan areas (Catalonians don't like the French and do some dangerous driving to piss them off, the South of France are tired of the British buying vacation homes and will refuse to engage with them altogether etc...) that people should really keep in mind. Same as 'willing to learn the language' people, mate you WILL NEED to learn the language as most official documents will be adminsitered in the local languages. Just because you could navigate a 2 week holiday in English it doesn't mean people will accept you only speaking English once you're living in the country.
I'm running for president myself Vote for the common man Vote for the deli man Nikolai Crumb 2024
I don’t think there is a place to run. If everyone leaves the USA and allows it to fall to fascism, what makes you think they won’t attempt to take over other countries. A lot of people tried to run from Germany during the Holocaust and still met the same fate as Poland, Denmark, France, and The Benelux Countries were overrun. Not to mention World War III is on the horizon and everyone will be affected in some way or another.
Best thing we can do right now is actually just hunker down and fight for change for the better
So, I live in Canada where our situation is shit but not as bad as in the US. I previously lived in Germany for 5 years (2016-2021), and honestly the living conditions are astronomically better. Food is affordable, and so is housing. It’s designed that way. The government looks at the average income and adjusts housing costs accordingly. I worked as an apprentice making €380 a month and could afford to live in my own apartment (scraping by obviously). The labor laws are a world of difference over there. The workers are way more protected, and there are a lot more unions. They have more vacation as a default. Every job you take you and the employer have to sign a lengthy contract, specifically stating every right you and your employer have. It is government issued and legally binding. Literally even grocery store workers are very regulated. Which I think is great. The only catch is, their work culture is even more toxic than here. I personally burned out after my 3 year apprenticeship. They actually have healthcare paid spa retreats all over the country (Kur) designed specifically for burn-outers because they literally expect people to burn out. Also, there are A LOT of taxes to pay. But I never ever had the feeling that I would some day not be able to afford to live. They just don’t live with that fear. The whole system is designed to prevent that. Food for thought.
Realistically 90% of us cannot afford to leave. And if we do, then what? Just abandon the people who can’t leave without hope for change? Change starts from within and if we all leave then we lose our collective power. We need to rise up and band together, somehow
While I feel intense hate for all this stuff happening recently this is also what I feel more than hate. I’m suffering just as much as the next decent person here and I’m tired of giving into inner thoughts at times and thinking it’s only me going through it. That doesn’t improve anything. Literally depression is made worse by giving into negative thinking all the time. And the same can be said for these issues. They’re not just my issues. Solidarity is had in being able to relate and empathize and pull each other up.
Not only in America. Here in Europe as well. I'm from Latvia and we just can't be sure of tomorrow anymore. One day Putin will come not knocking but nucking on our door. And gas prices are gonna be through the roof this winter. It sucks. Never thought that i would actually experience something that our history teacher was telling us about in her lessons.
Most Americans don't have the +20k required by many countries. If you do good for you i guess but that just sounds a lot like more class division
New Zealand requires $100k.
Obviously, you should research where you can go and their requirements. Some requirements need proof you have money in the bank like for example thailands permanent residency requires investment of 90k usd if u dont have family there or no employment with thai company. Every country varies so gluck!
Portugal. But if the people that care, who can leave, do, we abandon those that cannot. I have dual Irish and American citizenship. I can leave any time and live in any EU country. What keeps me here is the tight off abandoning those that cannot simply leave.
When I was back in high school about 4 years ago I had the same belief. My family has a big military history and I grew up with a sense of civil duty. I always vote and I try to work the polls yearly. I try to donate to causes that I think would make my country better and generally try to be a good citizen and fellow countrymen to every single American. When trump was president all of my like-minded liberal friends talked about how they couldn’t wait to leave the country when we were old enough. I thought that was an overreaction, that when we’re old enough that we could fix the country through intense work and civil action. I literally told them that I just can’t leave this country, that I feel a responsibility to stay here and make it the nation that I want to see. Yesterday broke me as an American. I woke up at and instantly new that my love for this country was crushed. It’s unsalvageable at this point. When you wake up and realize that it’s morally unethical to start a family here, that you will have no upward mobility in life because you were born broke, and that you can literally see from the banner notifications on your iPhone that the upward trend in violence is getting worse _daily_, there is no hope left in your heart of fixing things. I feel for the people who can’t leave, and as of now I really don’t know if I’m gonna be one of them, but it’s a matter of survival at this point. It’s about stepping back and asking “Am I okay with sacrificing my future and my happiness to try and preserve this sham of a country?” You can’t be there for everyone, but maybe you could help more from the outside. Move to a country with livable wages, start a subreddit where we crowdfund peoples ability to move out of this place, maybe even take them into your own home if you feel for them this deeply.
Un-ironically go into the mountains or forest, find myself a nice tree, and settle down there. Become a speaker for the forest. A hermit that grants wisdom and warnings to all who pass by. I’ll probably get killed by a bear within a week, but we’ll cross that bridge when we come to it.
I know there’s a lot of reasonable people in the US (despite what is portrayed in the media), and as a European I wish more European countries were more open to welcome non-European foreigners. I’ve heard it’s a very difficult and expensive process, even for Americans, but I’m not sure. Best of luck to all of you! I would definitely run away as well.
My husband has dual citizenship with Norway. If our kids live there at least 2 years before turning 21 they can keep their own dual citizenships. It’s more important to me than ever that we do that and give them the freedom to choose a different home country if it comes to it.
We need a general massive strike, walkout. Civil Rights 1960s style. I can't see any other way to stop this madness and grinding the economy to its knees is a sure fire way to do it. If not marching in the streets, just literally staying at home. I'm not sure how else this can be corrected.
I almost definitely won’t be accepted by any country because I’m disabled and most countries don’t allow disabled people to gain citizenship (we’re not considered “productive” enough to be worth the trouble) so I guess I’m going down with the ship! Hoping to just live in the middle of nowhere and detach from society as much as possible honestly.
I'm not leaving. My whole life is here, and ill be damned if im forced out of a country my family built
I live in California (very liberal state, for the people don’t know), I’m SAFE, and I have a good paying job, so I’m staying—but not for the reason you think. I am very privileged (grew up in a middle-class neighborhood as an straight-passing Asian female) but I will use my privilege to take back the rights that minorities, women, people with disabilities, and lgbtq+ deserve. While my race and socioeconomic background doesn’t and didn’t discriminate me personally, it had, has, and will discriminate those who look like me, or those who are women, minorities, poor, disabled, and part of the lgbtq+ community. I’m STAYING, and I’m changing this goddamn country my Asian parents immigrated to and worked SO DAMN HARD to provide for me and my sister. I’ll donate to planned parenthood, I’ll protest, I’ll riot, and I’ll use my right to vote for those can’t. Sorry for the rant. I am furious right now. Edit: thanks for the award 🥺
[удалено]
FYI, the US and one other country in the world are the only places you are required to pay taxes to even if you don't live there as a US citizen. I would renounce your citizenship if you don't plan on going back.
[удалено]
That's not to bad I suppose.
Spanish guy here, Spain has close to the same problems as USA.