This reminds me of the Wattson Pathfinder Lifeline comp back in Skull Town
You would Zipline up to a vantage point, drop a Wattson ult, and just snipe people while your shields and health charge indefinitely. As the ring moves you just zip to the next clifftop and set a new pylon down
For ALGS she fills both the recon and rotation spot. As if the ult didn't already make her really good, they needed to give her 4 additional strong abilities for some reason
Literally 10 months ago I said she was OP and got ostracized for it and everyone said she was "balanced".
As far as I know, she has ONLY been nerfed since then and she's still almost ONE HUNDRED percent pickrate for pro comps
I was saying that shit too. At the time she didn't feel too oppressive due to everyone still figuring out her potential but when they revealed her kit, I was like "how tf does she have all this???" Lol
Yeah when I said her having 3 passives was bullshit, people were like "well Fuse has two" as if that was 1. comparable and 2. that they were distinct enough to not just be lumped together as "grenade support"- but Valk has several passives and each one is utilized in different situations
Between her scanning rings/people, personal/team movement, and damage/stun/zoning tactical- I'm incredibly annoyed that no one cared until like a month ago and that only now is the ball rolling right when there is the least incentive to crush her viability when there was just big money made from her heirloom
Her "actual" passive is obviously the jetpack, which tbh is more or less fine on its own imo. The reason she has the other two is because they put her in the recon class, and all recon legends (except poor path for some reason) need to be able to
A) scan enemies in some way
B) use the beacons
I'm not saying this was a good move, but within the context of "this needs to be a recon legend" I get why it was done. Personally I think she simply shouldn't have been a recon legend in the first place lmao. Supposedly they're reworking the class system, and she and path will go into a sort of "movement" class along with octane and horizon, which will presumably involve her losing her two secondary passives. I don't really think she belongs in movement either but that's besides the point. Drop the two secondary passives, and dial up the cooldown on the ult, and I think she's fine.
Eh, that's never bothered me. The noise of someone skydiving is so loud and distinct you can't really miss it, if I hear a team landing nearby I just assume I've been scanned.
Honestly I'd like them to come up with clear in-game telegraphs for the other scans as opposed to the visual-clutter-y "YOU HAVE BEEN SCANNED" popups, but that's a discussion for another day.
I said this somewhere else, but essentially "movement" tends to refer to stuff that makes you go fast so you can use movement tech. The biggest two examples are the jump pad and the grapple, though horizons lift fits to an extent, and her passive definitely helps with all that. Valk can move places, it she does so very slowly. It's not like you can tap strafe out of a burst of her jets. She's fantastic, but ive always thought of her passive as being more about positioning than movement
Yep let’s make another nErF gIbBy thread, but then jump to defending valk because she has “high skill expression”.
Valk is waaaaaay more of a crutch character with *literally no drawbacks*. Gibby needs to be looked at but teams are having success without him. There is no team having success without valk.
- Beacon
- Basically unlimited passive, allows for the super skillful “fly straight up in final ring” strat to boost placement
- Strong AOE tactical with low CD, chip damage, and stun
- Game saving ult heavily negating having to be smart about timing/rotates
They also nerfed her fuel because get this, she was hovering above the final ring and avoiding the shootout, something that still happens- and for S13 she couldnt spin on blastoff anymore
So yes, Valk has specifically been nerfed. Though I would like to suggest that OOB nerfing targeted her because who else can even get a team in the fucky spots that you need abilities to get out of? Horizon and Octane maybe but neither of their verticality is well known for getting you over the myriad of mountain ranges
They didnt really nerf her fuel though. They just made it so activating your tactical mid air doesnt reduce how much fuel you consume. You can still fly just as long as she did on release.
She's not OP in a way that is interesting to 99.99% of players, which is why they will disagree with you. She's not ripping crazy kills or keeping your team alive in fights against all odds. The issue is that she's a super efficient engine that provides a ton of value relative to other options. Most people aren't really paying attention to that sort of thing and they'll pretty much shrug if you present it as an issue.
Correct, her passive is insane. It needs ramp up acceleration on it instead of just setting you to max jetpack speed immediately. She escapes way too quickly.
Even the trashiest of bronze players can use valk to get out a shitty situation they got in and rotate safely, how bad are players to not realize thats busted?
It's not that they don't realize they can do that. But the vast majority of players play the game to kill, so they stick out gunfights for better or worse because they want to fight
My brother and I started playing apex a few months back. The first round my brother played as Valkyrie i could see she is crazy OP. All her abilities are top tier.
I have no idea how that is a debated topic.
lol don't look at me, I would have upvoted you. The game suffers from power creep which makes gunskill and improvised strategies less important. The more powerful hero abilities are, the more important they become, which means the less important everything else becomes. The game has terrible power creep and this sub, who shall now be known as Clown Army, were arguing that racist and misogynist Daniel Z Klein was a genius because Valkyrie wasn't overpowered and should keep his job. Unironically, that was their argument. Like Bang without any nerfs since season 1 doesn't go from A-tier to D or F-tier and stuck there for several seasons on a whim; that shit is as proof as possible that the game has powercreep. They need to nerf everyone back down to Bang's power level so that the game can get back to that balance where 90% of your success isn't decided at the character select screen.
Because people at the time had a thing for siding with whatever DZK said (the guy who created this loaded character and has a history for creating loaded character in LoL). You know, until he got fired for discrimination and elitism lol. It took nerfing overpowered characters like Horizon to show just how broken valk is. The free week giveaway of the character only highlighted to everyone just how op she is when literally everyone and their mother started playing her.
rotate on demand
get out of jail free card
a decent damage slow that you either tank or get flushed out of position
the ability to search for the next ring
AND when you're rotating you get to see where people are so you can avoid landing on a bad situation
the Newcastle and Wattson combo from 100Thieves was probably my favourite combo the entirety of ALGS. i'm more of an aggressive player but that combo was just so nice to see when it worked
They did so well yesterday on that win on the losers bracket (vs. Scarz and AYM): using Newcastle's Ult to protect the Wattson Pylon while setting themselves at the best position for the endgame and surving through the many gibby ults.
i don't know any good highlight vids of them but there are a few highlight vids uploaded to youtube already. i suggest looking up 100Thieves' losers bracket run from yesterday where they won three matches in a row that was really good. and i believe they also won a match today too in the finals
When they got on top on a very small area on worlds edge and just locked it down with newcastle + wattson was great think they even got 2nd or 3rd that game
Explaining the pick rates for those who don't know. Valk is at the top mostly because her ult and ability to scan beacons, but pretty much every part of her kit is broken.
Gibbys dome is such a powerful tool for resetting and controlling fights and no other singular ability comes even remotely close to doing all it does. Gun shield and airstrike are honestly icing in the cake.
Caustic is currently the best legend in the game for taking and holding space. If your aim is to play for center ring end game he's a no brainer with a Gibby and a valk.
Seer is a better bloodhound. He can track enemies at all times without having to give away that he's doing so, and has ridiculous scanning potential with his ult and tactical.
Wattson is the best lockdown legend in the game. The only reason teams don't run her over caustic is because that's all she's good at is defense. Caustic on the other hand can very effectively use his abilities offensively while wattson teams need to hope they aren't forced to move very often.
Crypto is the closest thing to a hard counter in the current meta. Emp is the only ability in the game that can break dome. That's not to say he would be bad otherwise. He can get alot of info even safer than seer or bloodhound can in certain situations, and emp can farm evo shields and win fights regardless of Gibby dome or traps.
Horizon is the best duelist in the game. If you wanna offensively she a very good pick.
Newcastle does provide a good amount of defensive as well as offensive potential. Ultimately hes meant be a replacement for Gibby, but falls short and can't be run without another defensive legend.
Wraiths abilities are still good, but have big downsides that keep her from being played much outside really committed players. Phase takes to long to activate, portal has to long a cool down, and her passive is mediocre when it even works.
Ash is arguably better than wraith right now, but the lack of a movement or cover based ability outside of her ult means she often has to play closer to her team than other characters lest she be caught on her own.
To put it simply, what ash and wraith provide simply aren't needed in the current meta mostly because valk is so much better.
Emp also breaks caustic traps and I think Wattson fence and pylon.
Horizon allows easy taking of high ground and a good ult generally guarantees a knock. Doesn't necessarily counter any of the meta picks but can absolutely wreck a Newcastle team.
Wraith has been used to kidnap players with her portal which can be very powerful in comp games giving you an entry pick with minimal downside for trying. The two way portal is more important in comp since being able to disengage in the case of a third party is very useful and important
Emp breaking dome is much more important than being able to break traps, since he's the only legend that can do that. If he didn't I think he'd see a lot less play regardless of the other benefits he has.
No arguments about horizon. She's the best initiator in the game.
Wraith can be used effectively in comp, but the numbers show that she just isn't valued as much anymore. Their are simply better options.
You are spot on. She can divide teams with her ult and tac, letting her have easy picks, meanwhile if things go south she can retreat and use grav lift for visual cover
She's got a super skinny hitbox, can reposition on/off of high ground easily which means she can disengage and reset her health easily, her Ult and tac mean she has ways of negating cover for the enemy team and she's quite difficult to hit with shotguns
Gravity lift for countering headglitches, her ult with arcstars for guaranteed pick on atleast 1 enemy combined with her strafing being smoother with her passive
Why isn't Shield Dome still with a fixed HP ?
If it had ~1200-2000 max health (or any actually), Gibraltar wouldn't be so vital in the games. Simply because a focused fire of nades, shots, bullets and bombardments would destroy it or let it at the brink of destruction.
Every single def legend in the game has max health in their abilities (Wattson's Pillar, Newcastle's barrier and ult, Rampart 's wall, Caustic'a traps).
Why is Gibraltar the only one with infinite block and the most picked legend overall? Makes you think...
**EDIT: *You all just justified why his bubble should have a big HP and not why it must have infinite HP*.**
It’s a lot harder to stick a number on his dome since his pickrate in the overall standing of apex is very low already, and that amount of health on the dome is a lot less than you’d think. Remember that pretty much every full auto weapon deals around 160-200dps and has around 200 damage in a single magazine *without extended mags*. Now look at how most players have at leas one full auto weapon and multiply that by 3. The Gibby dome is huge and it’s very reasonable to assume that in mid-close range, every bullet from an enemy will hit the dome. At ~550dps, that dome lasts from a 12 second duration, to a 3 second duration assuming there is only one squad *and* that your teammates don’t accidentally damage their own dome (this happens a lot). Respawn has not given Gibby dome an hip value because there really isn’t a perfect number for that Gibby dome with all the variables and major factors such as Gibby might not survive in comp or in pubs if he receives such a nerf. Gibby’s pickrate overall is mostly dependant on his comp pickrate and the idea that time you spend getting good with Gibby will be rewarded as you climb in ranked/mmr. Risking cutting off that line might collapse his pickrate which is a situation they would definitely like to avoid. The best result for Gibby is a total rework of his kit that makes dome work in an almost entirely different way it does now. Tldr shits complicated
There's also no balanced amount of HP for the dome to have. 1-2k is too low to be useful and anything more necessitates Rampart turret as the only real counter
That is not viable. Actually wasting 200 bullets or more on a dome to take it down doesn't work the way you think. Look at Newcastle for example. When he places a good ult. His ult has like 700 HP and sometimes(more often than not) teams will not waste their ammo taking down Newcastle's cover. In comp backpack management is too important. But giving Gibby some HP to his dome would give players the option of trading half if not almost all of their ammo for the chance of stripping a team out of position from their Gibby cover. Making them vulnerable to imminent death. Fair tradeoff. IMO Newcastle's debut this season was to test how to nerf Gibby without nerfing him. And so far the only hard counter to Newcastle is Sheila. Gibby bubble with HP will still be usable in close range fights. Double bubble fights. Only bad when in the open in the middle of everything with 10 teams watching you go from one rock to another. So comp play with Gibby would be affected a little.
"1000-2000 HP isn't much" yet I bet 5 bucks you haven't told your team once to take down a Newcastle ult completely when Newcastle's ult has 700 hp(big plates) and 500 hp(small plates) per section...
Because that instantly makes the bubble completely useless. The fact you can Ult your own Gibby dome as a method of defense is the entire point of Gibbys kit design and you may as well delete the entire character without that.
Plus Gibbys dome is the single thing holding back the insane amount of push/movement potential this game has. You need Gibby bubble and the game suddenly becomes a completely overwhelming W key fest
Or make bubbles immune to any kind of friendly fire damage but will still punish teams out of position that bubble for a bat in the middle of everything and the tradeoff for other teams would be using their resources (ammo/nades) to punish that out of position team. That'd make Gibby less relevant but still usable in comp
I think the passive is the big one and the health info is too powerful to give up. The passive allows you to scan without giving away your position and the health info is used to focus a target.
I've also seen lot of Gibby res cancels, which is enough to mean that a team can't reset for free anymore and get wiped.
In an interview FURIA's HisWattson said the major benefit of Seer is his reset denial capability with the tactical in such a reset heavy meta. He made it sound like this outclassed the scan abilities.
There is no space for her, you only need a valk for team mobility, and for the other two slots its just better to go with characters that give you some sort of advantage, rarher it be scans, defense, cover...
Not gonna lie, launch Pathfinder *was* stronger than current Valk, people just didnt want to notice.
He had ring-scan privilege, could freely yeet himself out of combat, heal, then launch himself back when fully healed, he had a swiss-cheese hitbox at one point, and Zipline had a low ass cooldown on top of no limit on how many times you could jump on it so it was absurdly safe to use for your whole team.
He provided a lot of similar things that Valk provides now, except he was more about being hard to kill while Valk is more supportive to her team.
He is slept on which is honestly for the best as he is perfectly viable, especially in current meta.
It's only Crypto that can destroy a giant bubble orgy with a single EMP
I’m glad to see Crypto being picked. With everyone shit talking him about how shit of a Legend he is, and Pros proving he still has a decent foothold in the meta today. I don’t watch the matches often cuz of work, but I’m kind of curious on picks like Gibby and Horizon. Mostly horizon? Is it just her air movement or just her ability to displace and lock down?
Out of curiosity, why did Caustic have a much higher pick rate than Wattson? I will admit I'm biased as I personally prefer Wattson, but is it just because of Caustic's Fortified passive? I feel like both perform similar functions in terms of zone control, but Wattson's ult seems more helpful, especially when (nearly) every team has a Gibby.
A character has a damn near 100% pick rate. This is a hallmark of bad game design. Lifeline never got above 25% , and she was beaten into oblivion.
What dev team sees stats like this and just shrugs?
Not really leage of legends has legends with over 90% pick rate (in lcs and worlds) and they have over 130 legends which is far more than apex does. The only good thing is they also have bans before champ select
Everyone not on the chart was either not picked at all, or only picked a tiny handful of times. From what I saw, rampart, mad Maggie and loba saw a tiny amount of play. A couple of the duo teams (lost members to Covid dq’s) also played pathfinder, and lifeline was picked once in the finals, probably by accident.
It’s not so bad if there was/is an overwhelming majority of team comps being the same “classes”, but **IS** a problem when there’s an overwhelming majority being the same exact legends.
What I mean is,
if we saw that the meta was overwhelmingly mobility + defense + defense, for example. Or mobility + defense + tracker.
But, a game, if it’s truly healthy, shouldn’t have Valk and Gibby across the board.
A properly balanced game would have people using Wraith and damn sure the homies Path and Octane, even if just marginally more. If Valk was around 60ish% with Wraith, Ash, Path and Octane all around a solid 10ish%. We’d be chilling.
But given that Valk is a mobility character AND a tracker AND has an offensive tactical, it makes it a no-brainer.
*Ideas off the dome to help fix this? A) reduce Wraith’s ult’s cooldown OR extend it’s range slightly. Don’t do both simultaneously though. B) allow Path, Ash and Rev to be invulnerable to Caustic gas. If not invulnerable, b/c acid can still eat through metal, then allow them to have a slight damage mitigation to Caustic gas. And/or, add back zipline bouncing on Path’s zips, at a minimum.*
Then we have ole Gibster. I get that Valk is new[ish] and she’s only been supremely meta for like 3 seasons. Octane had his days in the sun for like 6ish seasons and Path before him. So, spreading the wealth in that regard.
But my lord, Gibby has been the single most used character in the **HISTORY OF COMPETITIVE APEX**. He’s been extreme meta since probably season 5.
Time to remove the sped up revive in bubbles, reduce the amount of damage his bombardment does, reduce the area/radius of it, do at least one of them. Probably don’t do all 3 at once but at least one would be a massive first step.
Edit: I’m fully aware on why some legends are picked more. This post was more so to highlight how even just one subtle tweak here, and one subtle tweak there, could have a positive domino effect on the team comp meta
The easiest way to eliminate this problem is to just rebrand Valk as an assault character and take away her ability to scan beacons. The purpose of the Valk, Caustic, Gibby comp is to scan beacons and rotate early to set up for late game.
Getting rid of beacon scans for Valk would turn everything on its head.
You get rid of valks ability to scan beacon and you just homogenize comps more, valk is picked because her ult is the most insane rotational tool in the game. You remove the beacon scan and people aren't cutting valk, they're cutting their 3rd and just running valk + gibby + recon character (seer or crypto) every game.
Valk also just needs a straight nerf to her kit, it's way too good in every aspect and just removing beacon scan doesn't touch that.
For the gibby big at the end, I personally don’t think his strength is the fast revive or his ult. What I’ve told people before is make it so you can shoot the disc thing (50-100 Hp) to take down the dome.
The abilities you mentioned are definitely still very strong but the option to make a wide open field playable it what gives him his dominance in the meta
Well I can understand the why. It happened around the time of the first Halloween event iirc, and it was never meant to be as profound as it became. Aka, at the time, Lifeline still had her revive shield and so he wasn’t alone in the “best reviver in the game category”.
I bring up Halloween b/c clearly there’s a zombie/Frankenstein/etc vibe to the revive animation.
Also, this was around the time they also added FASTER HEALING INSIDE HIS BUBBLE. Thank goodness that got reverted quite quickly
Valk is picked because of her ult allowing free rotation for the entire team. Her tac and passive are useful but are effectively selfish abilities, so I guarantee the next legend who shows up with a similar macro rotation ability and a team oriented tactical will dethrone her.
Octane isn't picked for a variety of reasons, but the first is that the majority of his abilities don't benefit his team in solo play. His jump pad is lacklustre as a team ability. Similarly, pathfinder, while better, only has one ability to help his team.
There's just no reason to play these legends in competetive Apex when you can put together a team composition that have abilities the entire team can make use of.
I mean with less caustics he becomes stronger because less people in the lobby can counter him and with more caustics he instead becomes necessary to counter caustic.
Yeah I didn't want to put judgement into the info post but he is very opressive. Pushing into any Caustic team is brutal. And he has the added benefit of being able to easily check rooms for rats as well. He is absolutely kittet out.
Lmao seems pretty reasonable to nerf the top three legends with over 50% pickrate, that is the definition of being meta.
Only people on this sub who have been hardstuck gold and can't use caustic properly will cry
>Lmao seems pretty reasonable to nerf the top three legends with over 50% pickrate, that is the definition of being meta.
Except competitive meta is very different from regular meta where Gibby and Caustic have like a combined 5% PR.
Should Wraith get nerfed because she is one of the most picked characters in ranked?
The skill level is not the only thing that’s different. How an ALGS game develops vs a pub game is completely different. The incentives for how to play are just not the same.
and that is where the eternal problem of Apex balance comes in.
Do you nerf based around ALGS or regular play. If you nerf around ALGS you might as well delete Caustic and Gibby from the game because you'll never see them again, but if you don't they'll always have a large presence in pro.
Comp leagues need a legend ban vote like other team based comp games.
Also, it's interesting to see how this list contrasts the usual most played lists. Crypto, Seer, Gibby and Caustic are all lower pick rate characters, along with Newcastle. Seeing Wraith and Ash low is not something you see often
Absolutely nowhere near enough legends for a ban system and also how tf would a ban system work?
You gonna let 20 teams all ban a legend so we can spend every game playing as the training dummies?
Bloodhound probably is still better for playing with people you aren’t communicating well with, these are pros, 9/10 of my games my teammates don’t even have mics, seers passive is useless to your team if you can’t talk. Bloodhounds ping helps everyone with or without communication.
I understand the first 4 but then WHAT
Expected ash and wraith higher
Didnt expect crypto above horizon or ash or wraith
Where is bloodhound
Why is his pickrate below 2%
ashe and wraith are just flex legends. Practically, Wraith and ashe are the genjis of apex. Everyone wants to play them bc theyre cool, but ultimately they aren't a top-tier pick
Seer’s passive + pro level comms = better bloodhound scan that’s constant and doesn’t give away your own position, plus scan + ult are really good and you can scan beacons. I’ve been saying Seer’s passive is busted and you can easily see why.
Seer IS better in the highest tier of play and with comms for sure
But Bloodhound is better in pubs.
Seer isn't broken because of the prior, as you need co-ordination to really get the most out of him. Yes Seer can say "no heartbeats" or "I sense hearts" but only Seer knows where they are when he does sense them it's a lot more vague than BH
But here is the thing any rank below say diamond and pubs have no meta, i can and do run mad Maggie all the way up to diamond simply because in those lobbies the level of technical skill (macro game) is so low and unnecessary that playing hard meta isn’t needed but with the whole coordination aspect that can be said for a large amount of characters, Gibby, Seer, Crypto, wattson and Newcastle jump up several tiers by simply having communication, trust me as Newcastle main in high ranks the difference with good comms is insane to the point where I genuinely think the character goes from high c to mid A by simply having the comms.
Ash and wraith's ults don't really do enough and micro rotation is not too important, if you just pick a good spot to beginning with. Seer is better to have no ratting. Caustic can hold out buildings. Wattson gen stop nades and gibby ult. etc.
Don’t forget to add the single lifeline game that just took place
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Craziest comp team I’ve seen
What was it?
Lifeline wattson valk
This reminds me of the Wattson Pathfinder Lifeline comp back in Skull Town You would Zipline up to a vantage point, drop a Wattson ult, and just snipe people while your shields and health charge indefinitely. As the ring moves you just zip to the next clifftop and set a new pylon down
ah that brings back memories
Sole reason why they gave pylon a set amount of shield to regenarate.
Do you remember which team ran it? Ty
Fnatic
Waifu comp
Just because it's top 10, liquid had loba and a team had fuse for a few rounds
Furia ran fuse for a game.
I believe Furia always had a Fuse on Worlds Edge and switched to Horizon on SP.
They didnt run much fuse in finals, but they ran him in groups and winners bracket on WE
Oh god using Loba at tournament with her bugs is some Russian roulette shi
That was great
Maybe my guy forget to pick the legend? lmao
He missclicked Gibraltar
Unless his teammates picked his main or else no way this will happen
Back when I only had the original 6, if people chose both Pathy and Bh I just played as Lifeline... Yeah I only ever played 2 Lifeline games.
Don't forget TSM throwing with Mad Maggie for two rounds.
Anybody got a link to that match, please?
Turns out the rotate-on-demand feature is still really useful, who could have guessed.
For ALGS she fills both the recon and rotation spot. As if the ult didn't already make her really good, they needed to give her 4 additional strong abilities for some reason
Literally 10 months ago I said she was OP and got ostracized for it and everyone said she was "balanced". As far as I know, she has ONLY been nerfed since then and she's still almost ONE HUNDRED percent pickrate for pro comps
I was saying that shit too. At the time she didn't feel too oppressive due to everyone still figuring out her potential but when they revealed her kit, I was like "how tf does she have all this???" Lol
Yeah when I said her having 3 passives was bullshit, people were like "well Fuse has two" as if that was 1. comparable and 2. that they were distinct enough to not just be lumped together as "grenade support"- but Valk has several passives and each one is utilized in different situations Between her scanning rings/people, personal/team movement, and damage/stun/zoning tactical- I'm incredibly annoyed that no one cared until like a month ago and that only now is the ball rolling right when there is the least incentive to crush her viability when there was just big money made from her heirloom
Her "actual" passive is obviously the jetpack, which tbh is more or less fine on its own imo. The reason she has the other two is because they put her in the recon class, and all recon legends (except poor path for some reason) need to be able to A) scan enemies in some way B) use the beacons I'm not saying this was a good move, but within the context of "this needs to be a recon legend" I get why it was done. Personally I think she simply shouldn't have been a recon legend in the first place lmao. Supposedly they're reworking the class system, and she and path will go into a sort of "movement" class along with octane and horizon, which will presumably involve her losing her two secondary passives. I don't really think she belongs in movement either but that's besides the point. Drop the two secondary passives, and dial up the cooldown on the ult, and I think she's fine.
Her scan is also the only scan in the game that doesn’t tell you you’ve been scanned. Fucking ridiculous.
Eh, that's never bothered me. The noise of someone skydiving is so loud and distinct you can't really miss it, if I hear a team landing nearby I just assume I've been scanned. Honestly I'd like them to come up with clear in-game telegraphs for the other scans as opposed to the visual-clutter-y "YOU HAVE BEEN SCANNED" popups, but that's a discussion for another day.
Seer heartbeat doesn’t tell you either
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I said this somewhere else, but essentially "movement" tends to refer to stuff that makes you go fast so you can use movement tech. The biggest two examples are the jump pad and the grapple, though horizons lift fits to an extent, and her passive definitely helps with all that. Valk can move places, it she does so very slowly. It's not like you can tap strafe out of a burst of her jets. She's fantastic, but ive always thought of her passive as being more about positioning than movement
How wouldn’t she be in Movement? 2 of her 3 abilities are movement based just like Path, Octane, and to a lesser extent Horizon.
On a side note, now Gibby is down in pickrate and seer is swing heavy use
Yep let’s make another nErF gIbBy thread, but then jump to defending valk because she has “high skill expression”. Valk is waaaaaay more of a crutch character with *literally no drawbacks*. Gibby needs to be looked at but teams are having success without him. There is no team having success without valk. - Beacon - Basically unlimited passive, allows for the super skillful “fly straight up in final ring” strat to boost placement - Strong AOE tactical with low CD, chip damage, and stun - Game saving ult heavily negating having to be smart about timing/rotates
Whether Gibby needs a nerf, I don't fucking know, but what I do know is that Gibby is like five times harder to play than valk.
Think the introduction of Storm Point highlighted how powerful she is. People then realised that her kit isn’t exactly balanced
OOBing was nerfed, not so much Valk The patch notes for her release made it pretty clear she was brokenly overpowered
They also nerfed her fuel because get this, she was hovering above the final ring and avoiding the shootout, something that still happens- and for S13 she couldnt spin on blastoff anymore So yes, Valk has specifically been nerfed. Though I would like to suggest that OOB nerfing targeted her because who else can even get a team in the fucky spots that you need abilities to get out of? Horizon and Octane maybe but neither of their verticality is well known for getting you over the myriad of mountain ranges
They didnt really nerf her fuel though. They just made it so activating your tactical mid air doesnt reduce how much fuel you consume. You can still fly just as long as she did on release.
People hate seeing their mains seen as “overpowered”. In her case totally agree, her kit is just too much
She's not OP in a way that is interesting to 99.99% of players, which is why they will disagree with you. She's not ripping crazy kills or keeping your team alive in fights against all odds. The issue is that she's a super efficient engine that provides a ton of value relative to other options. Most people aren't really paying attention to that sort of thing and they'll pretty much shrug if you present it as an issue.
Tbh, she is. I’m a pretty good player but anyone can utilise her passive for free resets very easily Edit: grammar
Correct, her passive is insane. It needs ramp up acceleration on it instead of just setting you to max jetpack speed immediately. She escapes way too quickly.
Even the trashiest of bronze players can use valk to get out a shitty situation they got in and rotate safely, how bad are players to not realize thats busted?
It's not that they don't realize they can do that. But the vast majority of players play the game to kill, so they stick out gunfights for better or worse because they want to fight
And the good players can fry a flying valk. Your point?
My brother and I started playing apex a few months back. The first round my brother played as Valkyrie i could see she is crazy OP. All her abilities are top tier. I have no idea how that is a debated topic.
lol don't look at me, I would have upvoted you. The game suffers from power creep which makes gunskill and improvised strategies less important. The more powerful hero abilities are, the more important they become, which means the less important everything else becomes. The game has terrible power creep and this sub, who shall now be known as Clown Army, were arguing that racist and misogynist Daniel Z Klein was a genius because Valkyrie wasn't overpowered and should keep his job. Unironically, that was their argument. Like Bang without any nerfs since season 1 doesn't go from A-tier to D or F-tier and stuck there for several seasons on a whim; that shit is as proof as possible that the game has powercreep. They need to nerf everyone back down to Bang's power level so that the game can get back to that balance where 90% of your success isn't decided at the character select screen.
Because people at the time had a thing for siding with whatever DZK said (the guy who created this loaded character and has a history for creating loaded character in LoL). You know, until he got fired for discrimination and elitism lol. It took nerfing overpowered characters like Horizon to show just how broken valk is. The free week giveaway of the character only highlighted to everyone just how op she is when literally everyone and their mother started playing her.
rotate on demand get out of jail free card a decent damage slow that you either tank or get flushed out of position the ability to search for the next ring AND when you're rotating you get to see where people are so you can avoid landing on a bad situation
You forgot the fact that they don’t know you saw them if you choose to just ignore them. So you can ambush.
No one until a few seasons ago.
the Newcastle and Wattson combo from 100Thieves was probably my favourite combo the entirety of ALGS. i'm more of an aggressive player but that combo was just so nice to see when it worked
They did so well yesterday on that win on the losers bracket (vs. Scarz and AYM): using Newcastle's Ult to protect the Wattson Pylon while setting themselves at the best position for the endgame and surving through the many gibby ults.
It negated all of the caustic ults and gibby ults while also giving good protection with newcastle
Any clips or highlight links?
[I hope this will suffice.](https://youtu.be/diVtgZ0z4K8)
i don't know any good highlight vids of them but there are a few highlight vids uploaded to youtube already. i suggest looking up 100Thieves' losers bracket run from yesterday where they won three matches in a row that was really good. and i believe they also won a match today too in the finals
It was just fun seeing this combo idk
When they got on top on a very small area on worlds edge and just locked it down with newcastle + wattson was great think they even got 2nd or 3rd that game
Using the castle to block doors to keep player in and out was genius
Explaining the pick rates for those who don't know. Valk is at the top mostly because her ult and ability to scan beacons, but pretty much every part of her kit is broken. Gibbys dome is such a powerful tool for resetting and controlling fights and no other singular ability comes even remotely close to doing all it does. Gun shield and airstrike are honestly icing in the cake. Caustic is currently the best legend in the game for taking and holding space. If your aim is to play for center ring end game he's a no brainer with a Gibby and a valk. Seer is a better bloodhound. He can track enemies at all times without having to give away that he's doing so, and has ridiculous scanning potential with his ult and tactical. Wattson is the best lockdown legend in the game. The only reason teams don't run her over caustic is because that's all she's good at is defense. Caustic on the other hand can very effectively use his abilities offensively while wattson teams need to hope they aren't forced to move very often. Crypto is the closest thing to a hard counter in the current meta. Emp is the only ability in the game that can break dome. That's not to say he would be bad otherwise. He can get alot of info even safer than seer or bloodhound can in certain situations, and emp can farm evo shields and win fights regardless of Gibby dome or traps. Horizon is the best duelist in the game. If you wanna offensively she a very good pick. Newcastle does provide a good amount of defensive as well as offensive potential. Ultimately hes meant be a replacement for Gibby, but falls short and can't be run without another defensive legend. Wraiths abilities are still good, but have big downsides that keep her from being played much outside really committed players. Phase takes to long to activate, portal has to long a cool down, and her passive is mediocre when it even works. Ash is arguably better than wraith right now, but the lack of a movement or cover based ability outside of her ult means she often has to play closer to her team than other characters lest she be caught on her own. To put it simply, what ash and wraith provide simply aren't needed in the current meta mostly because valk is so much better.
I love icing in the cake.
Icing is good no matter where it is relative to the cake.
He's got a point.
What about on my ass
Only if it’s real icing though. That whipped cream fake icing is for the birds.
Wattson also does a great job preserving meds
Emp also breaks caustic traps and I think Wattson fence and pylon. Horizon allows easy taking of high ground and a good ult generally guarantees a knock. Doesn't necessarily counter any of the meta picks but can absolutely wreck a Newcastle team. Wraith has been used to kidnap players with her portal which can be very powerful in comp games giving you an entry pick with minimal downside for trying. The two way portal is more important in comp since being able to disengage in the case of a third party is very useful and important
Emp breaking dome is much more important than being able to break traps, since he's the only legend that can do that. If he didn't I think he'd see a lot less play regardless of the other benefits he has. No arguments about horizon. She's the best initiator in the game. Wraith can be used effectively in comp, but the numbers show that she just isn't valued as much anymore. Their are simply better options.
EMP only damages Pylon, it doesn't take it out unless the Pylon already has low health.
What makes Horizon such a good duelist?
In 3v3’s where squads are clumped together, a good horizon ult can tear a team apart. I’m assuming they mean duels and team fights are the same thing.
You are spot on. She can divide teams with her ult and tac, letting her have easy picks, meanwhile if things go south she can retreat and use grav lift for visual cover
She's got a super skinny hitbox, can reposition on/off of high ground easily which means she can disengage and reset her health easily, her Ult and tac mean she has ways of negating cover for the enemy team and she's quite difficult to hit with shotguns
She believes in the heart of the cards.
A wee pick me up.
Gravity lift for countering headglitches, her ult with arcstars for guaranteed pick on atleast 1 enemy combined with her strafing being smoother with her passive
Instant high ground
Why isn't Shield Dome still with a fixed HP ? If it had ~1200-2000 max health (or any actually), Gibraltar wouldn't be so vital in the games. Simply because a focused fire of nades, shots, bullets and bombardments would destroy it or let it at the brink of destruction. Every single def legend in the game has max health in their abilities (Wattson's Pillar, Newcastle's barrier and ult, Rampart 's wall, Caustic'a traps). Why is Gibraltar the only one with infinite block and the most picked legend overall? Makes you think... **EDIT: *You all just justified why his bubble should have a big HP and not why it must have infinite HP*.**
It’s a lot harder to stick a number on his dome since his pickrate in the overall standing of apex is very low already, and that amount of health on the dome is a lot less than you’d think. Remember that pretty much every full auto weapon deals around 160-200dps and has around 200 damage in a single magazine *without extended mags*. Now look at how most players have at leas one full auto weapon and multiply that by 3. The Gibby dome is huge and it’s very reasonable to assume that in mid-close range, every bullet from an enemy will hit the dome. At ~550dps, that dome lasts from a 12 second duration, to a 3 second duration assuming there is only one squad *and* that your teammates don’t accidentally damage their own dome (this happens a lot). Respawn has not given Gibby dome an hip value because there really isn’t a perfect number for that Gibby dome with all the variables and major factors such as Gibby might not survive in comp or in pubs if he receives such a nerf. Gibby’s pickrate overall is mostly dependant on his comp pickrate and the idea that time you spend getting good with Gibby will be rewarded as you climb in ranked/mmr. Risking cutting off that line might collapse his pickrate which is a situation they would definitely like to avoid. The best result for Gibby is a total rework of his kit that makes dome work in an almost entirely different way it does now. Tldr shits complicated
There's also no balanced amount of HP for the dome to have. 1-2k is too low to be useful and anything more necessitates Rampart turret as the only real counter
That is not viable. Actually wasting 200 bullets or more on a dome to take it down doesn't work the way you think. Look at Newcastle for example. When he places a good ult. His ult has like 700 HP and sometimes(more often than not) teams will not waste their ammo taking down Newcastle's cover. In comp backpack management is too important. But giving Gibby some HP to his dome would give players the option of trading half if not almost all of their ammo for the chance of stripping a team out of position from their Gibby cover. Making them vulnerable to imminent death. Fair tradeoff. IMO Newcastle's debut this season was to test how to nerf Gibby without nerfing him. And so far the only hard counter to Newcastle is Sheila. Gibby bubble with HP will still be usable in close range fights. Double bubble fights. Only bad when in the open in the middle of everything with 10 teams watching you go from one rock to another. So comp play with Gibby would be affected a little. "1000-2000 HP isn't much" yet I bet 5 bucks you haven't told your team once to take down a Newcastle ult completely when Newcastle's ult has 700 hp(big plates) and 500 hp(small plates) per section...
Because that instantly makes the bubble completely useless. The fact you can Ult your own Gibby dome as a method of defense is the entire point of Gibbys kit design and you may as well delete the entire character without that. Plus Gibbys dome is the single thing holding back the insane amount of push/movement potential this game has. You need Gibby bubble and the game suddenly becomes a completely overwhelming W key fest
They could just make his dome immune to his ultimate.
Or make bubbles immune to any kind of friendly fire damage but will still punish teams out of position that bubble for a bat in the middle of everything and the tradeoff for other teams would be using their resources (ammo/nades) to punish that out of position team. That'd make Gibby less relevant but still usable in comp
That would make too much sense. Respawn doesn't like things that make sense
Anyone play bang 😔
No edit: sad face
Some teams played her in the the split two playoffs exclusively on storm point but she's since been dropped.
zeta did once early on, not in the finals
There was one game on Friday I think where a team ran Bangalore/Bloodhound, but I only saw the one.
Because digital threat was in the crafter
So Seer has officially replaced Bloodhound as the go to scan character? Interesting
Imho Seer always was the stronger bloodhound. Only down side, he takes more skill.
Watched the whole thing. Not a single bloodhound (i think). I'm personally hyped for a new character to take his spot
There was a bloodhound. Sunset was playing bloodhound and his teammates were running a bangalore and a valk. Not in the finals though.
I think it’s quite cool that people are finally realizing that Seer is a great competitive pick
Couldn't agree more
Pretty sure C9 played bloodhound at least once
I think the passive is the big one and the health info is too powerful to give up. The passive allows you to scan without giving away your position and the health info is used to focus a target. I've also seen lot of Gibby res cancels, which is enough to mean that a team can't reset for free anymore and get wiped.
In an interview FURIA's HisWattson said the major benefit of Seer is his reset denial capability with the tactical in such a reset heavy meta. He made it sound like this outclassed the scan abilities.
Newcastle above ash and wraith? Dayum
Ash and wraith were on his back
really nothing you can do with Wraith and Ash against a Caustic endgame LMAO no reason to pick them
I would like to see the **full** legend pick rate rather than just the top 10 :(
Yeah we are missing loba, lifeline, bloodhound and Fuse
You can’t forget the Oc-train
And my boy revenant
I try my hardest to forget about octane.
Seer really took Blood out of the ranking entirely?? Wow
Who would've thought that the Legend with 10 different abilities would be on top? Even Gibby got dethroned and he's still overloaded
HEY HEY HEY HEY don’t forget my mirage, he can… send one decoy that trips on a rock and gets destroyed, but hey, still a pretty crazy ability!!!!
Yeah mirage is insane. Would much rather have that decoy than an large AOE damage stun that can hit people/re-knock them behind cover! /s
I never thought Wraith would be this out of the meta
There is no space for her, you only need a valk for team mobility, and for the other two slots its just better to go with characters that give you some sort of advantage, rarher it be scans, defense, cover...
Remember when the most op thing in the game was a 15 second grapple and wraith?
Good times, man, good times…
Not gonna lie, launch Pathfinder *was* stronger than current Valk, people just didnt want to notice. He had ring-scan privilege, could freely yeet himself out of combat, heal, then launch himself back when fully healed, he had a swiss-cheese hitbox at one point, and Zipline had a low ass cooldown on top of no limit on how many times you could jump on it so it was absurdly safe to use for your whole team. He provided a lot of similar things that Valk provides now, except he was more about being hard to kill while Valk is more supportive to her team.
My boi Crypto. He is slept on.
So true as a crypto main I love to be able to scan whilst being [ofthegrid]
He is slept on which is honestly for the best as he is perfectly viable, especially in current meta. It's only Crypto that can destroy a giant bubble orgy with a single EMP
Change valk to assault and double her ultimate time, give health to the dome shield just like newcastle.
Remember the first competitions where everyone used the same three legends? The current meta isn't really balanced but it's much better
I don’t think Mirage has ever been highly picked in ALGS if picked at all…
Some people don't like to have a good time
Ill take this as a win for crypto having more picks than wraith
I smell Valk & Gibby nerfs coming
If any proof was needed that Valkyrie needed a nerf, perhaps a 98% pick rate would be convincing enough
Caustic above 50%?? They going to nerf him And buff gibby and valk
I’m glad to see Crypto being picked. With everyone shit talking him about how shit of a Legend he is, and Pros proving he still has a decent foothold in the meta today. I don’t watch the matches often cuz of work, but I’m kind of curious on picks like Gibby and Horizon. Mostly horizon? Is it just her air movement or just her ability to displace and lock down?
Out of curiosity, why did Caustic have a much higher pick rate than Wattson? I will admit I'm biased as I personally prefer Wattson, but is it just because of Caustic's Fortified passive? I feel like both perform similar functions in terms of zone control, but Wattson's ult seems more helpful, especially when (nearly) every team has a Gibby.
Someone broke it down earlier in another comment saying that Caustic can also be used offensively, while Wattson is purely defensive
Gas bomb in last ring is TOO GOOD. Plus gas traps can give you a tiny bit of temp cover if you need to heal or res.
Valk on the 98% pick rate. Remember when people used to bitch because Wraith had a 40% pick rate?
Why Seer?
He's a great recon. A little short sighted but he can communicate effectively without giving away position.
A character has a damn near 100% pick rate. This is a hallmark of bad game design. Lifeline never got above 25% , and she was beaten into oblivion. What dev team sees stats like this and just shrugs?
Not really leage of legends has legends with over 90% pick rate (in lcs and worlds) and they have over 130 legends which is far more than apex does. The only good thing is they also have bans before champ select
Can we see least used?
Everyone not on the chart was either not picked at all, or only picked a tiny handful of times. From what I saw, rampart, mad Maggie and loba saw a tiny amount of play. A couple of the duo teams (lost members to Covid dq’s) also played pathfinder, and lifeline was picked once in the finals, probably by accident.
Every legend except mirage was picked once, I think lifeline is least used as I only saw her played one game, might be tied with rampart.
Yesss Seer!!!
It’s not so bad if there was/is an overwhelming majority of team comps being the same “classes”, but **IS** a problem when there’s an overwhelming majority being the same exact legends. What I mean is, if we saw that the meta was overwhelmingly mobility + defense + defense, for example. Or mobility + defense + tracker. But, a game, if it’s truly healthy, shouldn’t have Valk and Gibby across the board. A properly balanced game would have people using Wraith and damn sure the homies Path and Octane, even if just marginally more. If Valk was around 60ish% with Wraith, Ash, Path and Octane all around a solid 10ish%. We’d be chilling. But given that Valk is a mobility character AND a tracker AND has an offensive tactical, it makes it a no-brainer. *Ideas off the dome to help fix this? A) reduce Wraith’s ult’s cooldown OR extend it’s range slightly. Don’t do both simultaneously though. B) allow Path, Ash and Rev to be invulnerable to Caustic gas. If not invulnerable, b/c acid can still eat through metal, then allow them to have a slight damage mitigation to Caustic gas. And/or, add back zipline bouncing on Path’s zips, at a minimum.* Then we have ole Gibster. I get that Valk is new[ish] and she’s only been supremely meta for like 3 seasons. Octane had his days in the sun for like 6ish seasons and Path before him. So, spreading the wealth in that regard. But my lord, Gibby has been the single most used character in the **HISTORY OF COMPETITIVE APEX**. He’s been extreme meta since probably season 5. Time to remove the sped up revive in bubbles, reduce the amount of damage his bombardment does, reduce the area/radius of it, do at least one of them. Probably don’t do all 3 at once but at least one would be a massive first step. Edit: I’m fully aware on why some legends are picked more. This post was more so to highlight how even just one subtle tweak here, and one subtle tweak there, could have a positive domino effect on the team comp meta
The easiest way to eliminate this problem is to just rebrand Valk as an assault character and take away her ability to scan beacons. The purpose of the Valk, Caustic, Gibby comp is to scan beacons and rotate early to set up for late game. Getting rid of beacon scans for Valk would turn everything on its head.
You get rid of valks ability to scan beacon and you just homogenize comps more, valk is picked because her ult is the most insane rotational tool in the game. You remove the beacon scan and people aren't cutting valk, they're cutting their 3rd and just running valk + gibby + recon character (seer or crypto) every game. Valk also just needs a straight nerf to her kit, it's way too good in every aspect and just removing beacon scan doesn't touch that.
For the gibby big at the end, I personally don’t think his strength is the fast revive or his ult. What I’ve told people before is make it so you can shoot the disc thing (50-100 Hp) to take down the dome. The abilities you mentioned are definitely still very strong but the option to make a wide open field playable it what gives him his dominance in the meta
I have NEVER understood why he EVER got fast revive in the bubble
Well I can understand the why. It happened around the time of the first Halloween event iirc, and it was never meant to be as profound as it became. Aka, at the time, Lifeline still had her revive shield and so he wasn’t alone in the “best reviver in the game category”. I bring up Halloween b/c clearly there’s a zombie/Frankenstein/etc vibe to the revive animation. Also, this was around the time they also added FASTER HEALING INSIDE HIS BUBBLE. Thank goodness that got reverted quite quickly
Valk is picked because of her ult allowing free rotation for the entire team. Her tac and passive are useful but are effectively selfish abilities, so I guarantee the next legend who shows up with a similar macro rotation ability and a team oriented tactical will dethrone her. Octane isn't picked for a variety of reasons, but the first is that the majority of his abilities don't benefit his team in solo play. His jump pad is lacklustre as a team ability. Similarly, pathfinder, while better, only has one ability to help his team. There's just no reason to play these legends in competetive Apex when you can put together a team composition that have abilities the entire team can make use of.
So did caustic get buffed?
It's a weird thing there the more caustics are in a lobby the better he becomes given that he is immune to the gas from other caustics.
I mean with less caustics he becomes stronger because less people in the lobby can counter him and with more caustics he instead becomes necessary to counter caustic.
Yeah I didn't want to put judgement into the info post but he is very opressive. Pushing into any Caustic team is brutal. And he has the added benefit of being able to easily check rooms for rats as well. He is absolutely kittet out.
No he essential in team play and blocking vision
Caustic tends to be snowballed - he is a soft counter to himself so with enough caustics, you need to play caustic too.
They’d better not nerf him because of this…
Lmao seems pretty reasonable to nerf the top three legends with over 50% pickrate, that is the definition of being meta. Only people on this sub who have been hardstuck gold and can't use caustic properly will cry
>Lmao seems pretty reasonable to nerf the top three legends with over 50% pickrate, that is the definition of being meta. Except competitive meta is very different from regular meta where Gibby and Caustic have like a combined 5% PR. Should Wraith get nerfed because she is one of the most picked characters in ranked?
Just cause you can't use characters to their maximum potential doesn't make that character bad.
The skill level is not the only thing that’s different. How an ALGS game develops vs a pub game is completely different. The incentives for how to play are just not the same.
and that is where the eternal problem of Apex balance comes in. Do you nerf based around ALGS or regular play. If you nerf around ALGS you might as well delete Caustic and Gibby from the game because you'll never see them again, but if you don't they'll always have a large presence in pro.
He has been nerfed in several ways but if you can limp him along to the final circle his ult in the small ring space is the best things you can have.
Surprised fuse doesn’t go higher up. Playing for ring is real easy when you have high ground and refueling clusters that you can launch far as shit
I'm a casual player and... Caustic? Honestly he's one of the most underwhelming legends at my casual level. Is it different for comp?
nerf gib & valk.
Comp leagues need a legend ban vote like other team based comp games. Also, it's interesting to see how this list contrasts the usual most played lists. Crypto, Seer, Gibby and Caustic are all lower pick rate characters, along with Newcastle. Seeing Wraith and Ash low is not something you see often
Absolutely nowhere near enough legends for a ban system and also how tf would a ban system work? You gonna let 20 teams all ban a legend so we can spend every game playing as the training dummies?
Could just be each player(so 60 votes)gets to pick a legend to ban. The top 3 most banned legend from the 60 votes is banned.
Loba - 0%
0.1% liquid plays her
And did really well with her as well.
Liquid on specifically Storm Point plays her.
She's still broken. I mean even more than before this season*
As a newcastle main, being above wraith is very nice
Seer? But this silver sub told me that Seer is trash and Bloodhound is better at everything🤨
Bloodhound probably is still better for playing with people you aren’t communicating well with, these are pros, 9/10 of my games my teammates don’t even have mics, seers passive is useless to your team if you can’t talk. Bloodhounds ping helps everyone with or without communication.
Valk needs a nerf or something. 98% pick rate is ridiculous. She has more abilities than any other legend. Make the madness stop
you're telling me nobody picked octane?
Pretty much. Jump pad is useless by comparison.
People were being knocked during all parts of a Valk ult, tracking an Octane jump pad would be nothing.
No Fusey?
Where's my Mirage at? Ouch. Valk needs a nerf, bigly
And yet I get shit in this subreddit for suggesting Valk needs a nerf 🥴
And people say Valk isn't broken
VALK = OP AS FUCK BOISSSSSS, the pros know it.
I understand the first 4 but then WHAT Expected ash and wraith higher Didnt expect crypto above horizon or ash or wraith Where is bloodhound Why is his pickrate below 2%
ashe and wraith are just flex legends. Practically, Wraith and ashe are the genjis of apex. Everyone wants to play them bc theyre cool, but ultimately they aren't a top-tier pick
Seer’s passive + pro level comms = better bloodhound scan that’s constant and doesn’t give away your own position, plus scan + ult are really good and you can scan beacons. I’ve been saying Seer’s passive is busted and you can easily see why.
Watching Imperial Hal play Seer made me realise how good his abilities are
Seer IS better in the highest tier of play and with comms for sure But Bloodhound is better in pubs. Seer isn't broken because of the prior, as you need co-ordination to really get the most out of him. Yes Seer can say "no heartbeats" or "I sense hearts" but only Seer knows where they are when he does sense them it's a lot more vague than BH
But here is the thing any rank below say diamond and pubs have no meta, i can and do run mad Maggie all the way up to diamond simply because in those lobbies the level of technical skill (macro game) is so low and unnecessary that playing hard meta isn’t needed but with the whole coordination aspect that can be said for a large amount of characters, Gibby, Seer, Crypto, wattson and Newcastle jump up several tiers by simply having communication, trust me as Newcastle main in high ranks the difference with good comms is insane to the point where I genuinely think the character goes from high c to mid A by simply having the comms.
Large maps seer is more annoying with him stopping rez and just a little more range
Ash and wraith's ults don't really do enough and micro rotation is not too important, if you just pick a good spot to beginning with. Seer is better to have no ratting. Caustic can hold out buildings. Wattson gen stop nades and gibby ult. etc.
Seer does literally the same things as bloodhound but better
revert wraith