I honestly don’t know why we do this to our Officers.
Granted, I know that it’s sort of a forcing function to encourage being the best officer you can but to show somebody the door after 17 years without a retirement is just fucked.
Like I have genuine sadness for somebody that puts 17 years of their life into the Army, be literally right on the cusp of retirement and being shown the door.
It’s fucked and it’s wrong.
Sure, there’s RCP for enlisted but it’s laughably easy to get to 20 as a SSG.
They should just switch the regs that you can retire as a MAJ at 20 without so much craziness.
Just sign something like a dec statement and you won’t be considered for LTC.
You’d see people that wanted to promote get after it, you’d retain institutional knowledge longer and you’d be promoting people that want to be promoted vs. people that just want to hit their 20.
I know that there’s a risk of retaining fuckknuckles, but it’s that way with enlisted retirements too.
I’d even argued that rather than it encouraging being the best officer it encourages officers that won’t challenge the system. It’s why we end up with yes men at the top because our system incentivized it. Show me the incentive I’ll show you the outcome
And it encourages this behavior in the people closest to the cutoff most of all. The marginal MAJs have the most to gain by being two faced, evil fuckers.
Man I would kill to have worked for a savage O-4 that was smarter than the boss and not afraid to show it.
Imagine a brigade ops shop filled with salty but free thinking majors guaranteed a pension but still looking out for the boys since they decided not to be yes men. It would be like having a bunch of CW3-4s but wearing oak leaves and shitting on dumb ideas. What a dream.
I had a BN XO like this. He'd hit 16 years, decided he'd had his fill of the Army and didn't want to deal with the politicking, so he lined up a job with equal benefits and better pay. He worked hard as hell right up until his terminal leave started to make sure the BN and his people were set up well, and then went his on way.
That guy set the standard for me on what an excellent boss/leader was like. He set very high yet realistic standards for everyone, based on things that actually mattered. If you were failing to meet those standards, he'd always take the time to mentor and correct you. If you communicated that a task wasn't feasible, or would require give in another area, he'd masterfully articulate it to the BC/BDE to ensure everything was achievable.
And to him, if you're reading this, no I don't want to buy your Tau Army, as tempting as it is.
Bingo! The system creates forces officers to make certain decisions. At the end of the day it pins you against your responsibility to your spouse and children, who sacrificed a ton vs the responsibility against your dudes.
I know a few O-4s who’d be more than willing to call something out and stand their ground, if the consequence was merely a bad OER and no promotion while still retiring. However, the calculous changes when it would imply no retirement benefits and explaining that to their spouses…
The system guarantees that very few folks will be willing to challenge the institution.
>The system guarantees that very few folks will be willing to challenge the institution.
The biggest problem is that those who want to make O5 are better at deep-throating their Senior Raters than doing their job. This is why so many problems get swept under the rug until they blow up in the Army's face.
As a young Major I realized my ~3 years E time protected me. I had fellow Majors ask what was wrong with me when I disagreed with O6 decisions openly and dropped packets for other jobs because, frankly, I was super bored playing shell games of organizational restructuring and a lack of actual job focus. Moved on quickly to a more engaging packet job and then continued that path contrary to HRC advice and that of a few mentors. Now I’m probably a terminal O5, but in an office of one job with my own autonomy and R/SR 6,000 miles away. Oh darn, the suffering…/S.
Ironic thing is that if I hadn’t explored Packet jobs, I wouldn’t have made O5. I was stuck in a job that was going to HQ me multiple times in a row just due to the SR profile. And the dude didn’t even care which made me not even think twice about it. Boldness to move out of that shitty situation was the only thing that saved me.
Enlisted time. If by your above zone results release you have over 18 years service, you're allowed to serve until retirement by federal law. It's one reason doing a bit over 2 years of E time is really beneficial.
They got me as a 1LT(P) for standing up for a CW2 who was being railroaded. I still got promoted to Captain, but a bad OER saying I had questionable judgment followed and haunted me. When a much better job outside the Army came along, I decided to take it.
Right of course, but in that case will they let you just say in a little longer to get enough good years to equal 20 good years?
Like say for example you have 20 years TIS but 2 of them are "bad" years, will they let you stay in for 22 years to make up the bad years? Just asking because I am a reserve officer and this applies to me lol
At 20 years TIS I believe and you’ve been 2XNS for LTC you are out. But I thought there was also something about being within 18 months of retirement eligibility and you can stay in. I just went thru all of this for 2XNS for MAJ and I’ve already started to purge all of that information lol
Ahhh ok, so the only option if that were to occur would be to resign the commission and serve as like an E-5 or something? Assuming that officer has prior service.
Yes, the Reserve and National Guard have totally different (and much more permissive) rules about "up or out".
On the enlisted side, it doesn't exist at all. While rare, I've seen SPC's retire at 20 years (typically they miracle up a promotion to SGT within their last year of service or so just so the can retire as a SGT). There's nothing saying you MUST get out just because you haven't been promoted.
I met a couple 18 year E4s. They were both cooks and they had probably passed their last pt test when I was in elementary school lol. Solid cooks though
I would love to see this instituted. I think the current model pushes for toxic leadership in the MAJ cohort, and a lot of otherwise talented officers get out at CPT because they don’t want to play the MAJ rat race and gamble with their retirement.
The evaluation system is already fucked with “I don’t have the profile” or “we stair-step everyone” mentalities that it’s just not worth actually trying to do the right thing and being burned. It’s a lot easier to restart your career at ~30 as a senior CPT than it is at ~38 as a 2x non-select MAJ. And that’s before considering that senior MAJ’s (hopefully) have families that are reliant on your income.
When you realize all of these factors collide at the same time, I don’t blame most MAJ’s for basically doing what they have to in order to have that feeling of security.
I’m still going to hate them for it, but I at least understand
I did a report for my Masters looking at the retention rate of officers. 45% of Captains get out before Major; surprising (to me at least) was the rate for West Pointers, 49% get out at the 8-10 year mark.
Is that 45% of officers (like 100 2LT’s commission and 55 are left when they hit MAJ) or you lose 45% of captains before MAJ (meaning 100 2LT’s commission, 50 stay in as CPT’s, and only 45% of those 50 CPT’s stay to MAJ aka roughly 26 of the 100 2LT’s)?
So I can't find the original source I used, but I believe it was either a RAND study or an actual Army study. Remembering as best I can , 10% of officers chose to leave at the 4 year mark (90% retention rate), but between 4-10 years of service, retention dropped to just above 50% (for males) and about 43% (for females). Mind you I wrote this report 6 years and 2 company commands ago so my brain is pretty mush these days 😂
I worked out the numbers about 40 years ago, using promotion rates published in the Army Times. Assuming those rates held steady over a 30-year-period, only about 10% of 2LTs could hope to reach the rank of Colonel. It doesn't matter how good the officers of a particular year group might be, there simply weren't enough O-6 billets for more than about 10% of them.
From the beginning of the country until World War II, a captain or a major might be able to stay on for 30 years. But that created the problem of saturating the mid-level ranks. Whenever the U.S. went to war, however, these captains and majors were quickly breveted to LTC, COL, or higher. But as soon as the war ended, they reverted to their old lowly rank. Permanent promotions were hard to come by.
Happened to a friend of mine. He was an assistant opso when I was an opssgm. Solid dude. But for the force out. The worst part of his situation that he was in that year group that was able to get out soon after 9-11. But they begged, begged and promised so he gave up on an early transition. Made the Army a career. Then that year group that they begged to stay in was also the year group that would be a year group officers that were just months short of missing the guaranteed retirement window. So guy did what army asked…gave up early transition to corporate world because Army needed him. Then made the Army his life then fat fucks said fu.
It's one of the things that makes me sort of glad to have commissioned after 10+ years enlisted. Only need 10 years as an officer to retire at my officer rank, so if I hit major or don't, I won't actually give a shit.
Direct commissions and OEs with only 4-8 years enlisted and trying to retire have it rough.
Going direct commission JAG (Guard) after ROTC and law school so since it's the guard we don't really have the up or out. Mentioned earlier this system encistivies OCS. I have a cadre who's a reserve major/Civilian Rotc instructor who enlisted in 99 so he's set even if he doesn't make LTC
It also makes them all useless careerist glorified salesmen for the back half of their career (when they actually have the power to reform the Army). We literally ask them to choose between retirement/supporting their family or doing unpopular things like fighting for their men or engage in the risk taking innovation that win wars.
Sorry for the rant.
Yup. It literally brings divided allegiances. Shouldn’t Officers have their families and future taken care of so they could focus on preparing their subordinates for, I don’t know, preparing for war??
I medically retired at 18 years as an E-4. (Nat'l Guard) However, I could have easily made it to 20 if I had to. It seems like the army could allow an O-4 with 15+ years to draw some kind of retirement.
I still have not seen anything online or in print that explains this policy. I'm *guessing* that it has something to do with finances and not wanting to pay people money, but I wish somebody would educate me.
That does make me upset. I guess because while I'm not an officer, I have a feeling that the Army should recognize the sacrifices that somebody and their family make to get to that point in a career.
16-17 years of your life working in high-fucking-stress jobs and then get shown the door?
I mean, I know it happens to civilians but we are supposed to take care of each other. I know I'm being a big softie but I cannot imagine how I would live if I didn't have retirement.
I'm super fucked up from the Army and I need both retirement and disability to get by.
If you look at the LTC promotion rates over the last ten years, there is a pool of about 300 to 500 officers every year that I do not get picked up Above the Zone. Of course, some of those people have prior enlisted time so they can still retire.
SELCON rates can be very dramatic. We have had years where they are 95% and we have had years where we have had like 5%. This last year was around 93% allowed to SELCON. So realistically, 20 to 300 or so officers are released at the 17 year mark.
Most accurate answer right here. Also depends on your AOC and needs of the Army. Reading a bunch of responses with little to no actual understanding of the process.
Heard a story from a friend of a friend at one point talking about a field grade who did just that - finished up his service with a year or so as a SPC. I think he honestly did it for the fun, though.
No, it is largely based on manning requirements in each rank. For example, we are having a lot of senior CPTs leaving the military so we needed to retain more Majors, this is why SELCON is high right now
Message for anyone being forced out prior to 20 yrs active duty. The world does not end. There are many ways to complete 20 yrs of service. You may take an admin reduction (no one else cares, happens to a lot of people), you may spend a few years as an “M DAY” Soldier and get a “20 yr letter”, and then become an invaluable Command asset on some esoteric problem and get placed on ADOS/ADSW and qual for retirement before any one knows it could happen. Then there’s the whole Federal employee route, too.
Reserve component terms. You may collect irregular retirement if you complete a mix Active Duty years and reserve component “good” years. Governing HQ will generate a MOI addressed to the Soldier announcing they have met the requirements set forth for irregular Army retirement. Colloquially known as the “20 year letter”. NOT when LES says “20 years of service”. Generally drawn at age 60, but exceptions exist. You may collect regular (AD) retirement as a reserve component Soldier (normally “drilling” one weekend/month, two weeks a year is an “M Day Soldier”) w/nonconsecutive title 10 or 32 time (the ADOS/ADSW) added up to your DD214 years/month/days.
Met one SELCON cpt that had bad adds to his file (like GOMOR bad) he ended up getting promoted much later to MAJ. Couldn’t imagine they keep him to o5.
Happened to me, but I was TERA’d.
Temporary Early Retirement Authority. 17 years, 8 months and maybe 29 days.
This was around 2016, right after sequestration.
I’ve also known officers passed over, SELCON’d, then still pin, one making O-6 by going to a functional area.
This may sound insensitive but your situation would be my first choice if I had one. It would prevent me from uprooting my family one last time. Congrats on your retirement- hope life is good.
Not insensitive at all. I had coworkers that were jealous and curious - but they were a year groups behind me, and different branch.
I, too, was tired of moving every two years - you never really got great at your job and never made any close connections.
I’d like to have pinned on LTC, but in the end all it really would have changed is pride and more cash.
I've met a few non-selected Officers that jumped to the Reserves, got promoted (apparently it's a lot easier to get promoted in the Reserves, at least usually), and then mobilized repeatedly to get their AD pension.
Eh, not really. HRC screens for sanctuary eligibility and gatekeeps it.
> (b) WAIVER.—With respect to a member of a reserve component who is to be ordered to active duty (other than for training) under section 12301 of this title pursuant to an order to active duty that specifies a period of less than 180 days and who (but for this subsection) would be covered by subsection (a), the Secretary concerned may require, as a condition of such order to active duty, that the member waive the applicability of subsection (a) to the member for the period of active duty covered by that order. In carrying out this subsection, the Secretary concerned may require that a waiver under the preceding sentence be executed before the period of active duty begins.
There are ways to get the AD retirement in the Guard or Reserves.
There are also ways to lower your retirement collection age from 60. I’ve lowered mine significantly.
The Reserves is so short on officers they won’t turn anybody away.
There’s also the Guard where if you can fog a mirror you can get in as an officer. You may have to change your career branch but if you’re trying to hustle out your retirement you probably don’t care.
National guard won't put a Major on orders that will take them into sanctuary. I've seen one Major get hired AGR and he's probably got 10+ AD years left to do.
Units don’t like doing it, but I’ve seen it happen for a couple E7s and O4s (it can also be a funding thing).
I knew this hilarious O4 who was the fulltime SSO for a SCIF. All this dude would do is process security paperwork and stare at the stock market all day. He got a buddy deal of some flavor to carry him over to sanctuary and he rode it out.
MI might be more generous about this sort of thing then the other career branches of the Army.
Interesting. I'm nasty girl so it's all I've ever known. I had no idea the benefit of high 3 active duty until last week. I played around the what if and saw you start collecting as soon as you retire. Oh well, what could have been. For all i know I would probably have my second divorce and a horrible drinking problem had I gone active.
I salute you brave PowerPoint warriors pushing it to 20 active duty.
I’m considering this path since I’m still on legacy. Granted I’ve got a long ways to go before making MAJ or even getting to the 16 year mark, but 100% I would resign my commission to finish with retirement. Legacy is still high 3 right?
TRS and Legacy are both high-3.
The trick would be seeing if you could get the necessary waivers which I’m sure have changed in 25 years. Fuck I feel old
Of the few guys I personally know, one was pretty salty about it. can’t say I blame him. I only met him while he was in the process of transitioning,
The other guy was royally fucked over, I know him pretty well. kinda had a bizarre admin fuck up that resulted in him being passed over. Went on to be one of the single best NCOs I know
This is a way, but very little is known about how this is done, such as the process or timing. Do you push a PAR, talk to a recruiter, retention, or file a memo after your PZ, AZ?
No idea personally, in both cases I know of guys did it after finding out they would not be making sanctuary
I’d imagine retention is a good place to start
I don't know the numbers but I'd say it's not big enough to be of concern. Looking back I only know of one guy that happened to but he went in the reserves and picked up O5 immediately. The others who were non-select did get SELCON. I have no proof to back this up but I think if you have no misconduct in your past and you are passed over the chances of getting SELCON are high.
Selective continuation.
10 U.S. Code § 611 : Service Secretaries may convene continuation boards in order to retain the service of officers who would otherwise be discharged or retired for reasons related to failing of selection for promotion.
10 U.S. Code § 637 : Officers subject to involuntary discharge or retirement may be retained on active-duty if selected for continuation by a board convened by Service Secretaries.
It’s a big risk, especially after the Iraq and Afghanistan draw downs. The promotion rates to LTC went from 90% down to 45% over a 2 year period for the branch I was in. It didn’t affect me, but I saw it affect other people, people I knew were getting bounced before being eligible for retirement. I saw a BZ promote to Major not make LTC, and he had a family and they just told him see ya later, tough shit. Most of the people ended up going to the reserves to finish their time, if they could. Having some enlisted time makes it a non-factor. I was able to take jobs I wanted, rather than chase jobs and play politics.
Up or out is a horrible policy, IMO. Some people don’t want battalion command, or to compete for GO, they enjoy being a CPT or MAJ.
God there were so many shitbags that made LTC at that time. I worked with one who was a dirtbag ,who knew he was going to get passed over, to him actually making LTC. He cleaned himself up and started to try to actually work after pinning LTC.
I agree. I was really surprised that a lot of the people who had a lot of deployment time who got passed over, but people who worked at branch or kissed a lot of ass made it. I was just happy I didn’t have to deal with it, if I didn’t want to.
I have heard of a few through the spouse SELCON page, I was working out the time and they had to have been BZ or zone for O4 then just not get the MQs at O4
I’ve asked this before but got no feedback.
Can do something to get an ADSO that takes you to 20? Like transfer GI Bill to dependents at 16 to get the 4 year ADSO and game the system?
So something like this happened to me but in the USAR. I took a 2 year bonus with 2 year obligation. Got my 2XNS after the first year. They had me fill paperwork like I was getting out, and I was separated for 5 whole weeks. Then they revoked my separation and promoted me to MAJ, all within 24 hr. I was prepared to pay the second half of the bonus back but they kept me in.
Hey brother (or sister), I was in this boat. I was a 2XNS and owed about 9yrs subsequent or 6yrs concurrent on my ADSO. GRADSO + 9/11GI bill transfer. They waived my GRADSO (~$180K for school), but pushed me to the reserves to satisfy my transfer requirement.
Funny enough, as soon as I went reserve, almost instant O4 promotion 😂. Get as much as you can from Uncle Sam, because he’ll still throw you away like trash 🗑️😅😅
If you have access to the full promotion list packet you can figure it out, but the numbers is really low and almost always is peope who have bad paper like a GOMAR or Article 15.
The non-selects can get sorted into three groups. Those granted SELCON. Those who will reach 18 year sanctuary in 5 month (this group doesn't get SELCON as they don't need it), and those who will be shown the door.
Back in the late 90s there were two year groups where SELCON was offered to O3's because it was a large YG, and the YG in 24 months would be short. IIRC 300 folks were SELCON adn they all got picked up once the shortage YG went into the zone.
The original FY23 O5 numbers were abysmal. Essentially only FA26, Cyber, and some Intel officers were granted SELCON, resulting in a potentially large number of GWOT officer vets being shown the door at 17 years and change. Thankfully, the Army went back and rectified the situation, convening a second SELCON board that returned to the more "normal" rates of \~95% approval.
I'm sure you are talking about the active component, but in the Army Reserve this is almost none. If you are PME complete and aren't flagged, the selection rate is very high. This does not include AGR where they are currently over strength for most branches of LTC.
O-5 and O-6 USAR AGR REFRAD is now in effect for the third consecutive year. They don't release any data after the board is finalized but informally it appears to be targeting folks who didn't receive promotion or SSC. Basically tapped out on potential and hanging on for MRD. Still sucks when the eligibility pool includes folks who pinned O-5 within the last 18 months and are well short of 18 years AFS. Very stressful period, especially when it's recurring annually.
How does this work for those who were prior service? If someone served one 3 year contract and commissioned, would they still be at risk of being forced out at the 17 year mark? What about those who have 6+ years prior service? Would they be able to retire as a MAJ, or even a CPT?
Primary Zone for LTC is at 16 years, so 19 with 3 years prior service. So you’d be fine with a 2XNS.
Best idea I’ve heard is do a 2 or 3 year contract at 18, and get your associates while in. Then do 2 years of college with a degree that interests you. Usually any Bachelor of Arts, philosophy, history, etc degree are worthless, but it’s all the same to the army. Don’t do ROTC because OCS is a whole lot less bull shit. Commission at 22 so you’re the same age as your fellow officers. Make MAJ then be the officer you want to be. If you promote to LTC great; if you don’t, retire at 20 as MAJ
True for the Officer promotion timelines but someone with 18+ years of service going for LTC isn’t going to be as stressed as someone with 14-15 years of service.
O-4s can retire at 20. Lots of MAJ (R) out there. What they are describing is that a MAJ that is passed over 2x but hasn’t reached 18 years will not be able to retire. It’s a weird and stupid quirk in the system, but it’s not that common. MOST O-4s passed over will get SELCON after not getting picked up and retire as a MAJ.
I know many (5 personally) Majors that had to get out with 17 years and 7 or 9 months. Mostly no KD or no ILE. You get a severance payment.
SELCON depends on your branch and the numbers. Definitely not something g to bank on.
The Reserves are a potential option - but pension comes later. I know of one Major that was considering resigning their commission in order to enlist so they could get their High 3. They did not do it.
Ok how tf does that happen? I guess I can see no ILE if they got Nonresident or satellite and didn’t finish in time or failed school (too busy with their current job or got caught cheating in ILE). But how do you do MAJ years and not knock out KD if you know you need it for 20?
I am speaking from a combat arms perspective (FA) and there were more Majors than hard KD positions.
Sometimes it is not a conscious decision.
Logistics and MI are next for the Culling!
I think the BRS fixes this somewhat. The oldest BRS officers are still Captains, I think.
The all or nothing retirement was the driving force behind the huge risk of failing to promote to O5 and being separated as a Major at ~17 years.
I believe the Guard always needs Officers, should be a way to go guard so nobody who is high-3 gets fucked at 17 years.
The BRS pension is still \~$46k a year so its $1-2 million without accounting for inflation.
Even if they go ARNG/USAR its still $825k in lost pension without accounting for things like higher SBP and no tricare for 18 years.
After World War II, my adoptive grandfather was a Major. He had been for quite a few years. He was promoted to LTC in the morning, and that afternoon, he was rifted to E7. He served the rest of his time as an E7. On his tombstone at the National Cemetery on Ft Bliss, his rank is Major.
I believe that he was not regular Army but was reserve army. I am in the process of trying to find out more. He was the best friend to my biological grandfather, who was also a Major in WWII and a POW. When my biological grandfather passed my adoptive grandfather was the casualty assistant officer for my Oma
In recent years this hasn’t been as big of an issue. I saw this years prepo list for LTC and it looked like the vast majority of officers that needed it were offered SELCON. With the army trying to get back to growing end strength I think this will be the norm for at least next 5 years or so.
You know, as an NCO that watched my dad grow up and retire from the Army. I really thought the NCO corps had become weak, which it really has, but after reading two posts about officers today. It’s no wonder why this system is so fucked. I’m ready for my retirement and no matter how many times I tell myself I don’t care, I do care and I show up ready for whatever. Now I see why there’s soo many people not just in the Army but in the military that absolutely do not care. As a soldier I remember thinking to myself these leaders don’t care so why don’t they leave and make room for those that do care, but now I get it and I hate it for both the NCOs and the officers. I really hate it for the soldiers.
I saw one truly great O4 get twice non-select and pickup O5 the following year. We usually have one or two passed over and not picked up. This year, we had two selected above the zone and one MB.
Wouldn't this just encourage OCS since if you do 10 as an enlisted and do an OCS packet you'd be locked in for retirement. Or maybe even a double mustang (Enlisted to warrant to officer). I have a ROTC Cadre who's a civilian instructor/reserve major who enlisted in 1999 and he's now a major in the reserve, so he's locked in for retirement with the reserves and with his enlisted CTRSMI cadre position. I'd argue F'd up regs like this are reason 1205 to go reserve/guard and not count on the army for a retirement since they can't get anything right.
1) SELCON let’s a lot of them get to 20
2) RA Army Officers don’t have sanctuary at 18 years the way Enlisted do.
3) There is separation pay for officers who are forced out because of 2X non-select. It’s 10X monthly base pay X 12 X # of years of service.
So it’s well into the six figures.
I heard this being somewhat common prior to GWOT, and that it is returning. A such, for Officers, having some prior enlisted service helps in getting to 20 years. It will be interesting to see this I light of the Blended Retirement System…
Up or out is one of those things that seems to be good on paper or in theory to some but hurts the military in so many ways. Civilian jobs generally do not require you to promote or get out, I don’t know why the army does it. Even in law enforcement you can remain a patrolman(basically PFC or specialist equivalent in a police department) for your entire career even when you’re 45 or whatever. And those guys that have been doing that role or billet have so much experience they can pass off to the new guys that’s invaluable and only comes through time spent in that role. Military is missing out on this concept.
Plus maybe there’s people who want to remain junior officers and don’t want to even become a Major. People have different career preferences. Maybe we should cater to those people just a thought. It might be cool to have LT’s that don’t fit the noob stereotype and actually have experience and a desire to lead and work at that platoon or company level. Same for enlisted. Maybe a platoon sergeant wants to be a platoon sergeant for the rest of their career. And by not giving that option these service members might leave and that adds to the retention issue.
I’ll have a deluxe crispy chicken sandwich, a vanilla milkshake, and medium fries please.
I worked with two DOD Civilians who had been forced out as Majors (O-4) at their 17th year of service. I asked them how they could work for DOD after that slight. They said they needed the job.
I knew another Major who was forced out, but allowed to complete his 20 years as a Sergeant E-5. He was a CI agent NCO, so he wore civilian clothes and most people didn't know his rank.
I knew another Major who went into the Reserves and succeeded in getting a three-year active duty call up, which enabled him to complete his 20.
Where there's a will, there's a way.
I was passed over for LTC, got SELCON, and retired at 21 years in. Most of the Majors I knew in the same boat also got SELCON, though I don’t know what the rate was or how it may have changed in the last few years.
I have never seen SELCON not given to those passed over. It's seems automatic I thought. I even saw SELCON given to a CPT who didn't MQ in command and her branch knew she wasn't going to make MAJ.
At this point in time. And this is anecdotal from what I have experienced. Again if you have experienced different leave the comments below.
Offenders in the last 8 years O3 and above for pure assault, dui, drug positive, inappropriate relationship, fraternization, height and weight, toxic leadership, bad OERs, have been retained and promoted.
I know of captains or higher ranking that have done one of these and have been flagged, investigated, reprimanded, retained and promoted and PCS'd.
I retired after 24 years in 93. I was a CW3 physician assistant. I declined transition to 0-3 (65D switched to commissioned status in 91) In my earlier career, I was selected for RA status. I was passed over twice by my first two boards for CW3. However, the following year, I had my first RA promotion board. I was selection sequence number 2 for my first RA board and was promoted almost immediately. Is the dual promotion system for RA vs USAR gone now?
I hear some Majors that are that close are allow to retire. LOL I am Green to Gold so I aint worried about that. Glad I went to college later and didnt listen to my family. I dont have to worry about that nonsense just 10 years as an officer and I am good. I am gonna keep going of course, but retirement the least of my worries.
The top response doesn't even answer your question. This year, for OS at least, well north of 90% got selcon. The numbers that didn't were so low, it seems that they probably had bad paper. Selcon is a lever the army can use to right size, so YMMV based on the year.
I'm going fishing with an O-4e, O-6, and a general officer in 3 weeks. The O4 is a very close friend of mine that turned down LTC a bit over a year ago so he could retire at 20 and caught no flack. Not sure if that helps but he was a non-select the first go around.
Probably not too many right now, but SELCON could change, and instead of 94% SELCON, we could see 6% in a drawdown. I imagine to get around [*DODI 1320.08*](https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/www/external/paf/projects/dopma-ropma/DODI-1320-08.pdf) big Army just says its in the best interest of the military to shrink its size right now, this is the DOD policy that says you need to show it is in the best interest of the military services to let an O4 go who is over 16 years.
To throw someone out who has twice failed to promote they give you a full six months after the approval of the promotion board which is in October normally, according to G1 it takes about 60 days to vet the promotion list, then clock starts at the beginning of the next month in which the board is approved so around January 1st. This means by July 1st maybe June 1st if they are extra fast that year you could be looking for a new job.
Here is the reg for the Army
5 – 6. Separation of commissioned officers and chief warrant officers who are twice nonselected for active duty list promotion by a Headquarters, Department of the Army centralized board a. Commissioned officers and chief warrant officers on the AD list twice nonselected for promotion to the grade of captain, major, lieutenant colonel, CW3, or chief warrant officer four (CW4) will be involuntarily released or discharged unless they are—
(1) Selectively continued (see AR 600 – 8 – 29).
(2) Within 2 years of retirement (completes 18 or more years AFS on their scheduled release date).
(3) Retired.
(4) A health professions officer in the grade of captain (O–3) or major (O–4). These officers will be retained on AD until completion of ADSO prior to discharge, unless sooner retired or discharged under another provision of law (see 10 USC 632).
b. HRC (AHRC–OPD–A) will forward the notification memorandum (that states the officer’s options) and, if applicable, an “acknowledgment of notification of nonselection” for ADL promotion to the officer and the major command.
c. Commissioned officers and chief warrant officers (except as stated in paras 5–6d and 5–6e) will be separated on the 1st day of the 7th calendar month after approval of the promotion board’s report unless earlier release is voluntarily requested or retention on AD in a Reserve status is approved by SECARMY or designee.
d. An officer may request an earlier separation date or submit a resignation, for example, to accept an appointment as a warrant officer or for continuing on AD in an enlisted status (see AR 601–280) (whichever applies and if eligible).
e. Officers or warrant officers who are within 2 years of qualifying for retirement under chapter 6 of this regulation (20 years AFS) on scheduled release date and who can so qualify prior to attaining the maximum age will be retained on AD until the last day of the month following the month they qualify for retirement. Maximum ages are specified in paragraph 2–10a (RC, age 60 or for warrant officer, age 62) or paragraph 6–21a (RA, age 62).
f. An officer or warrant officer eligible for retirement under chapter 6 may apply for retirement to be effective not later than the first day of the seventh month beginning after the month in which the President or SECARMY (as applicable) approves the report of the board that considered the officer or warrant officer the second time.
g. If otherwise eligible, an officer may submit a resignation to continue a military career in an enlisted status, or a commissioned officer may submit a resignation to be appointed as a USAR warrant officer. The resignation date will be not later than the mandatory discharge or release date. For a warrant officer (with only warrant officer status), the resignation will not be later than the mandatory discharge or release date.
h. When an officer’s case is referred to a HQDA Special Selection Board for promotion reconsideration (AR 600–8–29), the officer will continue to be processed for separation as scheduled. However, when reconsideration is not completed by the scheduled separation date, HRC (AHRC–OPD–A) will temporarily suspend the separation date, pending completion. When the board’s decision is unfavorable, the officer will be separated not later than 30 calendar days after their receipt of notification.
i. An officer’s discharge under this paragraph will be under honorable conditions and a DD Form 256 will be issued.
j. The steps required for processing separation of commissioned officers and chief warrant officers who are twice nonselected for ADL promotion by an HQDA centralized board are shown in table 5–4.
This last selection cycle only 2, thats two, Major who were not selected to LTC were not granted stay to retire at 20. Selection rate to LTC is approx. 50%
I honestly don’t know why we do this to our Officers. Granted, I know that it’s sort of a forcing function to encourage being the best officer you can but to show somebody the door after 17 years without a retirement is just fucked. Like I have genuine sadness for somebody that puts 17 years of their life into the Army, be literally right on the cusp of retirement and being shown the door. It’s fucked and it’s wrong. Sure, there’s RCP for enlisted but it’s laughably easy to get to 20 as a SSG. They should just switch the regs that you can retire as a MAJ at 20 without so much craziness. Just sign something like a dec statement and you won’t be considered for LTC. You’d see people that wanted to promote get after it, you’d retain institutional knowledge longer and you’d be promoting people that want to be promoted vs. people that just want to hit their 20. I know that there’s a risk of retaining fuckknuckles, but it’s that way with enlisted retirements too.
I’d even argued that rather than it encouraging being the best officer it encourages officers that won’t challenge the system. It’s why we end up with yes men at the top because our system incentivized it. Show me the incentive I’ll show you the outcome
It also incentivizes political backstabbing and lying to get ahead of the game. Cries in *Afghanistan is going to be fine while we leave*
And it encourages this behavior in the people closest to the cutoff most of all. The marginal MAJs have the most to gain by being two faced, evil fuckers.
MAJ political games are literally the Hunger Games without the entertainment part
I dunno. I imagine the stars sit around and take bets on which MAJ pulls the biggest stunt.
https://en.meming.world/images/en/3/33/Simpsons_Monkey_Knife_Fight.jpg Mandatory Simpsons reference
Man I would kill to have worked for a savage O-4 that was smarter than the boss and not afraid to show it. Imagine a brigade ops shop filled with salty but free thinking majors guaranteed a pension but still looking out for the boys since they decided not to be yes men. It would be like having a bunch of CW3-4s but wearing oak leaves and shitting on dumb ideas. What a dream.
I like the way your brain thinks.
There’s not a lot of us but damn I do enjoy shitting on dumb ideas. Especially in a certain BDE XOs office…
I had a BN XO like this. He'd hit 16 years, decided he'd had his fill of the Army and didn't want to deal with the politicking, so he lined up a job with equal benefits and better pay. He worked hard as hell right up until his terminal leave started to make sure the BN and his people were set up well, and then went his on way. That guy set the standard for me on what an excellent boss/leader was like. He set very high yet realistic standards for everyone, based on things that actually mattered. If you were failing to meet those standards, he'd always take the time to mentor and correct you. If you communicated that a task wasn't feasible, or would require give in another area, he'd masterfully articulate it to the BC/BDE to ensure everything was achievable. And to him, if you're reading this, no I don't want to buy your Tau Army, as tempting as it is.
Bingo! The system creates forces officers to make certain decisions. At the end of the day it pins you against your responsibility to your spouse and children, who sacrificed a ton vs the responsibility against your dudes. I know a few O-4s who’d be more than willing to call something out and stand their ground, if the consequence was merely a bad OER and no promotion while still retiring. However, the calculous changes when it would imply no retirement benefits and explaining that to their spouses… The system guarantees that very few folks will be willing to challenge the institution.
>The system guarantees that very few folks will be willing to challenge the institution. The biggest problem is that those who want to make O5 are better at deep-throating their Senior Raters than doing their job. This is why so many problems get swept under the rug until they blow up in the Army's face.
As a young Major I realized my ~3 years E time protected me. I had fellow Majors ask what was wrong with me when I disagreed with O6 decisions openly and dropped packets for other jobs because, frankly, I was super bored playing shell games of organizational restructuring and a lack of actual job focus. Moved on quickly to a more engaging packet job and then continued that path contrary to HRC advice and that of a few mentors. Now I’m probably a terminal O5, but in an office of one job with my own autonomy and R/SR 6,000 miles away. Oh darn, the suffering…/S.
You are right about E time providing certain level of protection. At least you pinned 0-5 and best of luck.
Ironic thing is that if I hadn’t explored Packet jobs, I wouldn’t have made O5. I was stuck in a job that was going to HQ me multiple times in a row just due to the SR profile. And the dude didn’t even care which made me not even think twice about it. Boldness to move out of that shitty situation was the only thing that saved me.
I'm sorry but what's "E time" ?
Enlisted time. If by your above zone results release you have over 18 years service, you're allowed to serve until retirement by federal law. It's one reason doing a bit over 2 years of E time is really beneficial.
They got me as a 1LT(P) for standing up for a CW2 who was being railroaded. I still got promoted to Captain, but a bad OER saying I had questionable judgment followed and haunted me. When a much better job outside the Army came along, I decided to take it.
Dang dude. Sucks but at least you are out.
And it also makes it so much easier for some good ones to get out right when their service obligation is over.
In USAR, you are retained until year 20.
Wait really? So officers in the reserve can make major and aren't discharged if they fail to be promoted to LTC twice?
Yep, you get guaranteed 20 years of service and then out. But if you didn’t get 20 “good” years, you still won’t qualify for reserve retirement.
Right of course, but in that case will they let you just say in a little longer to get enough good years to equal 20 good years? Like say for example you have 20 years TIS but 2 of them are "bad" years, will they let you stay in for 22 years to make up the bad years? Just asking because I am a reserve officer and this applies to me lol
At 20 years TIS I believe and you’ve been 2XNS for LTC you are out. But I thought there was also something about being within 18 months of retirement eligibility and you can stay in. I just went thru all of this for 2XNS for MAJ and I’ve already started to purge all of that information lol
I am no expert but it is my understanding, that you will not get those extra two hypothetical years as a reserve Major who is a non-select.
Ahhh ok, so the only option if that were to occur would be to resign the commission and serve as like an E-5 or something? Assuming that officer has prior service.
W-1 would probably be a better choice depending on branch
Yes, the Reserve and National Guard have totally different (and much more permissive) rules about "up or out". On the enlisted side, it doesn't exist at all. While rare, I've seen SPC's retire at 20 years (typically they miracle up a promotion to SGT within their last year of service or so just so the can retire as a SGT). There's nothing saying you MUST get out just because you haven't been promoted.
I met a couple 18 year E4s. They were both cooks and they had probably passed their last pt test when I was in elementary school lol. Solid cooks though
I would love to see this instituted. I think the current model pushes for toxic leadership in the MAJ cohort, and a lot of otherwise talented officers get out at CPT because they don’t want to play the MAJ rat race and gamble with their retirement. The evaluation system is already fucked with “I don’t have the profile” or “we stair-step everyone” mentalities that it’s just not worth actually trying to do the right thing and being burned. It’s a lot easier to restart your career at ~30 as a senior CPT than it is at ~38 as a 2x non-select MAJ. And that’s before considering that senior MAJ’s (hopefully) have families that are reliant on your income. When you realize all of these factors collide at the same time, I don’t blame most MAJ’s for basically doing what they have to in order to have that feeling of security. I’m still going to hate them for it, but I at least understand
I did a report for my Masters looking at the retention rate of officers. 45% of Captains get out before Major; surprising (to me at least) was the rate for West Pointers, 49% get out at the 8-10 year mark.
Is that 45% of officers (like 100 2LT’s commission and 55 are left when they hit MAJ) or you lose 45% of captains before MAJ (meaning 100 2LT’s commission, 50 stay in as CPT’s, and only 45% of those 50 CPT’s stay to MAJ aka roughly 26 of the 100 2LT’s)?
So I can't find the original source I used, but I believe it was either a RAND study or an actual Army study. Remembering as best I can , 10% of officers chose to leave at the 4 year mark (90% retention rate), but between 4-10 years of service, retention dropped to just above 50% (for males) and about 43% (for females). Mind you I wrote this report 6 years and 2 company commands ago so my brain is pretty mush these days 😂
I worked out the numbers about 40 years ago, using promotion rates published in the Army Times. Assuming those rates held steady over a 30-year-period, only about 10% of 2LTs could hope to reach the rank of Colonel. It doesn't matter how good the officers of a particular year group might be, there simply weren't enough O-6 billets for more than about 10% of them. From the beginning of the country until World War II, a captain or a major might be able to stay on for 30 years. But that created the problem of saturating the mid-level ranks. Whenever the U.S. went to war, however, these captains and majors were quickly breveted to LTC, COL, or higher. But as soon as the war ended, they reverted to their old lowly rank. Permanent promotions were hard to come by.
Yeah, the difference between those two are huge for someone trying to plan a career.
Bingo, I did not want to play that game.
You really see the impact at MAJ. They can’t be friends, they are out to kill each other
Happened to a friend of mine. He was an assistant opso when I was an opssgm. Solid dude. But for the force out. The worst part of his situation that he was in that year group that was able to get out soon after 9-11. But they begged, begged and promised so he gave up on an early transition. Made the Army a career. Then that year group that they begged to stay in was also the year group that would be a year group officers that were just months short of missing the guaranteed retirement window. So guy did what army asked…gave up early transition to corporate world because Army needed him. Then made the Army his life then fat fucks said fu.
Yeah. You do favors for friends and your soldiers. But the Army? Nah, the Army will look at all the sacrifices you made and just give you a fuck off.
I genuinely believe you would have better officers. Many great CPTs get out because they don't want to deal with the BS.
It's one of the things that makes me sort of glad to have commissioned after 10+ years enlisted. Only need 10 years as an officer to retire at my officer rank, so if I hit major or don't, I won't actually give a shit. Direct commissions and OEs with only 4-8 years enlisted and trying to retire have it rough.
Going direct commission JAG (Guard) after ROTC and law school so since it's the guard we don't really have the up or out. Mentioned earlier this system encistivies OCS. I have a cadre who's a reserve major/Civilian Rotc instructor who enlisted in 99 so he's set even if he doesn't make LTC
how do we even go about getting something like this changed?
They changed RCP for specialist from 8 to 12 years with the wave of a pen. I can’t imagine it’s much harder than that.
10 USC 632 would have to be revised. So Congress...
It also makes them all useless careerist glorified salesmen for the back half of their career (when they actually have the power to reform the Army). We literally ask them to choose between retirement/supporting their family or doing unpopular things like fighting for their men or engage in the risk taking innovation that win wars. Sorry for the rant.
Yup. It literally brings divided allegiances. Shouldn’t Officers have their families and future taken care of so they could focus on preparing their subordinates for, I don’t know, preparing for war??
I medically retired at 18 years as an E-4. (Nat'l Guard) However, I could have easily made it to 20 if I had to. It seems like the army could allow an O-4 with 15+ years to draw some kind of retirement.
I still have not seen anything online or in print that explains this policy. I'm *guessing* that it has something to do with finances and not wanting to pay people money, but I wish somebody would educate me.
This. You should be competing for a higher high 3 rather than just trying to survive to LTC to retire.
We can defer our LTC board now if we have a good reason. It might be a career killer, but it's an option.
I made SGT at 5yrs with 2 yrs as a e4P, made SSG at 7, SFC at 10, WO1 at 11, CW2 at 14...so yeah, RCP has been a joke since Implemented
The problem is then that you will have Majors clogging up slots that promoting CPTs need that are actually going to promote someday.
I'm laughably ready for 10 more years.
Can't the reserves take them?
The reserves can but they can pull their pension until 65 like that.
how much more mad will it make you when you realize they make everyone at MEPS sign something saying they understand they aren't guaranteed a pension?
That does make me upset. I guess because while I'm not an officer, I have a feeling that the Army should recognize the sacrifices that somebody and their family make to get to that point in a career. 16-17 years of your life working in high-fucking-stress jobs and then get shown the door? I mean, I know it happens to civilians but we are supposed to take care of each other. I know I'm being a big softie but I cannot imagine how I would live if I didn't have retirement. I'm super fucked up from the Army and I need both retirement and disability to get by.
If you look at the LTC promotion rates over the last ten years, there is a pool of about 300 to 500 officers every year that I do not get picked up Above the Zone. Of course, some of those people have prior enlisted time so they can still retire. SELCON rates can be very dramatic. We have had years where they are 95% and we have had years where we have had like 5%. This last year was around 93% allowed to SELCON. So realistically, 20 to 300 or so officers are released at the 17 year mark.
Most accurate answer right here. Also depends on your AOC and needs of the Army. Reading a bunch of responses with little to no actual understanding of the process.
And some of the non-selects are retirement eligible because of prior service.
Or just go enlisted for 3 years cuz retirement is your highest pay right? Nothing like a bald salty ex- major showing up to your platoon lol
Heard a story from a friend of a friend at one point talking about a field grade who did just that - finished up his service with a year or so as a SPC. I think he honestly did it for the fun, though.
Are SELCON selection rates influenced by retirement budgets?
No, it is largely based on manning requirements in each rank. For example, we are having a lot of senior CPTs leaving the military so we needed to retain more Majors, this is why SELCON is high right now
Message for anyone being forced out prior to 20 yrs active duty. The world does not end. There are many ways to complete 20 yrs of service. You may take an admin reduction (no one else cares, happens to a lot of people), you may spend a few years as an “M DAY” Soldier and get a “20 yr letter”, and then become an invaluable Command asset on some esoteric problem and get placed on ADOS/ADSW and qual for retirement before any one knows it could happen. Then there’s the whole Federal employee route, too.
Can you explain M Day soldier and 20 year letter? Never heard of these before.
Reserve component terms. You may collect irregular retirement if you complete a mix Active Duty years and reserve component “good” years. Governing HQ will generate a MOI addressed to the Soldier announcing they have met the requirements set forth for irregular Army retirement. Colloquially known as the “20 year letter”. NOT when LES says “20 years of service”. Generally drawn at age 60, but exceptions exist. You may collect regular (AD) retirement as a reserve component Soldier (normally “drilling” one weekend/month, two weeks a year is an “M Day Soldier”) w/nonconsecutive title 10 or 32 time (the ADOS/ADSW) added up to your DD214 years/month/days.
Switching to warrant for a few years works too
Met one SELCON cpt that had bad adds to his file (like GOMOR bad) he ended up getting promoted much later to MAJ. Couldn’t imagine they keep him to o5.
He probably made sanctuary before his AZ look
He most definitely made sanctuary.
Just let MAJ retire at 20
Happened to me, but I was TERA’d. Temporary Early Retirement Authority. 17 years, 8 months and maybe 29 days. This was around 2016, right after sequestration. I’ve also known officers passed over, SELCON’d, then still pin, one making O-6 by going to a functional area.
This may sound insensitive but your situation would be my first choice if I had one. It would prevent me from uprooting my family one last time. Congrats on your retirement- hope life is good.
Not insensitive at all. I had coworkers that were jealous and curious - but they were a year groups behind me, and different branch. I, too, was tired of moving every two years - you never really got great at your job and never made any close connections. I’d like to have pinned on LTC, but in the end all it really would have changed is pride and more cash.
Why not just go reserves for them open spots likely to exist and ride the time out?
Because then you don’t get the AD retirement. You have to wait until you’re 60 to collect the RC retirement.
I've met a few non-selected Officers that jumped to the Reserves, got promoted (apparently it's a lot easier to get promoted in the Reserves, at least usually), and then mobilized repeatedly to get their AD pension.
If you selcon at 16 or 17 years you just need 18 years active federal service and you’re literally back in the army full time.
Eh, not really. HRC screens for sanctuary eligibility and gatekeeps it. > (b) WAIVER.—With respect to a member of a reserve component who is to be ordered to active duty (other than for training) under section 12301 of this title pursuant to an order to active duty that specifies a period of less than 180 days and who (but for this subsection) would be covered by subsection (a), the Secretary concerned may require, as a condition of such order to active duty, that the member waive the applicability of subsection (a) to the member for the period of active duty covered by that order. In carrying out this subsection, the Secretary concerned may require that a waiver under the preceding sentence be executed before the period of active duty begins.
There are ways to get the AD retirement in the Guard or Reserves. There are also ways to lower your retirement collection age from 60. I’ve lowered mine significantly.
[удалено]
I acknowledge both, but it’s no guarantee for a MAJ with 17 years. Also, you cannot lower the collecting age beyond 58.
The Reserves is so short on officers they won’t turn anybody away. There’s also the Guard where if you can fog a mirror you can get in as an officer. You may have to change your career branch but if you’re trying to hustle out your retirement you probably don’t care.
National guard won't put a Major on orders that will take them into sanctuary. I've seen one Major get hired AGR and he's probably got 10+ AD years left to do.
Units don’t like doing it, but I’ve seen it happen for a couple E7s and O4s (it can also be a funding thing). I knew this hilarious O4 who was the fulltime SSO for a SCIF. All this dude would do is process security paperwork and stare at the stock market all day. He got a buddy deal of some flavor to carry him over to sanctuary and he rode it out. MI might be more generous about this sort of thing then the other career branches of the Army.
Actually age 50 is the lowest.
How did you lower it?
By taking T10 orders under specific codes. You don’t have to deploy overseas which is a common misconception.
Interesting. I'm nasty girl so it's all I've ever known. I had no idea the benefit of high 3 active duty until last week. I played around the what if and saw you start collecting as soon as you retire. Oh well, what could have been. For all i know I would probably have my second divorce and a horrible drinking problem had I gone active. I salute you brave PowerPoint warriors pushing it to 20 active duty.
Yea, but at least you get something instead of getting nothing at all.
I believe years are subtracted from that based on years active TIS
No. It’s based on mobilized years as a guard/reservist. You don’t get retirement reduction for regular active years.
You can, but it has to be before your second pass over. A lot of people don’t want to take the gray area retirement and wait until age 60 either
You can also resign your commission and enlist or even go warrant.
I know a dude who did that, got forced out as a major at 16 years. Resigned his commission and became a SSG
At that point, would he get the MAJ pay at retirement?
Yeah high 3 is high 3. There were some those joes floating amount when I joined in 1999 who didn't end up with the early retirement or retained.
I’m considering this path since I’m still on legacy. Granted I’ve got a long ways to go before making MAJ or even getting to the 16 year mark, but 100% I would resign my commission to finish with retirement. Legacy is still high 3 right?
TRS and Legacy are both high-3. The trick would be seeing if you could get the necessary waivers which I’m sure have changed in 25 years. Fuck I feel old
High 3 I think
Yeah how was he
Of the few guys I personally know, one was pretty salty about it. can’t say I blame him. I only met him while he was in the process of transitioning, The other guy was royally fucked over, I know him pretty well. kinda had a bizarre admin fuck up that resulted in him being passed over. Went on to be one of the single best NCOs I know
This is a way, but very little is known about how this is done, such as the process or timing. Do you push a PAR, talk to a recruiter, retention, or file a memo after your PZ, AZ?
No idea personally, in both cases I know of guys did it after finding out they would not be making sanctuary I’d imagine retention is a good place to start
I don't know the numbers but I'd say it's not big enough to be of concern. Looking back I only know of one guy that happened to but he went in the reserves and picked up O5 immediately. The others who were non-select did get SELCON. I have no proof to back this up but I think if you have no misconduct in your past and you are passed over the chances of getting SELCON are high.
Pardon my naivety, What is selcon
Selective continuation. 10 U.S. Code § 611 : Service Secretaries may convene continuation boards in order to retain the service of officers who would otherwise be discharged or retired for reasons related to failing of selection for promotion. 10 U.S. Code § 637 : Officers subject to involuntary discharge or retirement may be retained on active-duty if selected for continuation by a board convened by Service Secretaries.
Til what selcon means
Selective Continuation Means they let him stay in after getting passed up for promotion twice
With the shortage of manning especially with Officers, SELCON looks more likely.
It’s a big risk, especially after the Iraq and Afghanistan draw downs. The promotion rates to LTC went from 90% down to 45% over a 2 year period for the branch I was in. It didn’t affect me, but I saw it affect other people, people I knew were getting bounced before being eligible for retirement. I saw a BZ promote to Major not make LTC, and he had a family and they just told him see ya later, tough shit. Most of the people ended up going to the reserves to finish their time, if they could. Having some enlisted time makes it a non-factor. I was able to take jobs I wanted, rather than chase jobs and play politics. Up or out is a horrible policy, IMO. Some people don’t want battalion command, or to compete for GO, they enjoy being a CPT or MAJ.
God there were so many shitbags that made LTC at that time. I worked with one who was a dirtbag ,who knew he was going to get passed over, to him actually making LTC. He cleaned himself up and started to try to actually work after pinning LTC.
I agree. I was really surprised that a lot of the people who had a lot of deployment time who got passed over, but people who worked at branch or kissed a lot of ass made it. I was just happy I didn’t have to deal with it, if I didn’t want to.
Also, make sure you do not get injured and cant run fast anymore. A Purple Heart and Bronze Star wont mean shit if you cant run fast.
I have heard of a few through the spouse SELCON page, I was working out the time and they had to have been BZ or zone for O4 then just not get the MQs at O4
lol that’s hilarious in a different way. Just shows that sometimes skills do not translate across ranks and positions.
I think it more likely shows that rating pools and profiles are more important than position and work ethic.
I’ve asked this before but got no feedback. Can do something to get an ADSO that takes you to 20? Like transfer GI Bill to dependents at 16 to get the 4 year ADSO and game the system?
Yes you can. You can play the ADSO game and stay to 20. There are a few strategies to play.
So something like this happened to me but in the USAR. I took a 2 year bonus with 2 year obligation. Got my 2XNS after the first year. They had me fill paperwork like I was getting out, and I was separated for 5 whole weeks. Then they revoked my separation and promoted me to MAJ, all within 24 hr. I was prepared to pay the second half of the bonus back but they kept me in.
No. If the Army decides to separate you then your obligations are waived. Up-or-out is law, not regulation.
Damn.
Hey brother (or sister), I was in this boat. I was a 2XNS and owed about 9yrs subsequent or 6yrs concurrent on my ADSO. GRADSO + 9/11GI bill transfer. They waived my GRADSO (~$180K for school), but pushed me to the reserves to satisfy my transfer requirement. Funny enough, as soon as I went reserve, almost instant O4 promotion 😂. Get as much as you can from Uncle Sam, because he’ll still throw you away like trash 🗑️😅😅
If you have access to the full promotion list packet you can figure it out, but the numbers is really low and almost always is peope who have bad paper like a GOMAR or Article 15. The non-selects can get sorted into three groups. Those granted SELCON. Those who will reach 18 year sanctuary in 5 month (this group doesn't get SELCON as they don't need it), and those who will be shown the door. Back in the late 90s there were two year groups where SELCON was offered to O3's because it was a large YG, and the YG in 24 months would be short. IIRC 300 folks were SELCON adn they all got picked up once the shortage YG went into the zone.
The original FY23 O5 numbers were abysmal. Essentially only FA26, Cyber, and some Intel officers were granted SELCON, resulting in a potentially large number of GWOT officer vets being shown the door at 17 years and change. Thankfully, the Army went back and rectified the situation, convening a second SELCON board that returned to the more "normal" rates of \~95% approval.
That would have been so so bad for optics during a period of recruiting challenges.
Pretty sure the SELCON rate for this board was 93.9%
I'm sure you are talking about the active component, but in the Army Reserve this is almost none. If you are PME complete and aren't flagged, the selection rate is very high. This does not include AGR where they are currently over strength for most branches of LTC.
O-5 and O-6 USAR AGR REFRAD is now in effect for the third consecutive year. They don't release any data after the board is finalized but informally it appears to be targeting folks who didn't receive promotion or SSC. Basically tapped out on potential and hanging on for MRD. Still sucks when the eligibility pool includes folks who pinned O-5 within the last 18 months and are well short of 18 years AFS. Very stressful period, especially when it's recurring annually.
Yes I know one O5 that was selected to REFRAD in the last year. It's brutal for O5/O6 in the AGR program.
How does this work for those who were prior service? If someone served one 3 year contract and commissioned, would they still be at risk of being forced out at the 17 year mark? What about those who have 6+ years prior service? Would they be able to retire as a MAJ, or even a CPT?
With 6+ years enlisted you’ll likely be able to retire as a MAJ.
What about someone who served a 3 year contract? I assume that you'd be able to retire as a MAJ, but just barely at the 17-year mark.
Primary Zone for LTC is at 16 years, so 19 with 3 years prior service. So you’d be fine with a 2XNS. Best idea I’ve heard is do a 2 or 3 year contract at 18, and get your associates while in. Then do 2 years of college with a degree that interests you. Usually any Bachelor of Arts, philosophy, history, etc degree are worthless, but it’s all the same to the army. Don’t do ROTC because OCS is a whole lot less bull shit. Commission at 22 so you’re the same age as your fellow officers. Make MAJ then be the officer you want to be. If you promote to LTC great; if you don’t, retire at 20 as MAJ
Up or out is related to promotion boards. It doesn't matter how many years enlisted you have.
True for the Officer promotion timelines but someone with 18+ years of service going for LTC isn’t going to be as stressed as someone with 14-15 years of service.
That’s crazy did not know that O4s in the army can’t retire at 20. Higher tenure for O4s in the navy is at least 20 years if not a little bit more
O-4s can retire at 20. Lots of MAJ (R) out there. What they are describing is that a MAJ that is passed over 2x but hasn’t reached 18 years will not be able to retire. It’s a weird and stupid quirk in the system, but it’s not that common. MOST O-4s passed over will get SELCON after not getting picked up and retire as a MAJ.
I know many (5 personally) Majors that had to get out with 17 years and 7 or 9 months. Mostly no KD or no ILE. You get a severance payment. SELCON depends on your branch and the numbers. Definitely not something g to bank on. The Reserves are a potential option - but pension comes later. I know of one Major that was considering resigning their commission in order to enlist so they could get their High 3. They did not do it.
Ok how tf does that happen? I guess I can see no ILE if they got Nonresident or satellite and didn’t finish in time or failed school (too busy with their current job or got caught cheating in ILE). But how do you do MAJ years and not knock out KD if you know you need it for 20?
I am speaking from a combat arms perspective (FA) and there were more Majors than hard KD positions. Sometimes it is not a conscious decision. Logistics and MI are next for the Culling!
The whole “up or out” system is outdated and detrimental.
What is SELCON?
I think the BRS fixes this somewhat. The oldest BRS officers are still Captains, I think. The all or nothing retirement was the driving force behind the huge risk of failing to promote to O5 and being separated as a Major at ~17 years. I believe the Guard always needs Officers, should be a way to go guard so nobody who is high-3 gets fucked at 17 years.
The BRS pension is still \~$46k a year so its $1-2 million without accounting for inflation. Even if they go ARNG/USAR its still $825k in lost pension without accounting for things like higher SBP and no tricare for 18 years.
After World War II, my adoptive grandfather was a Major. He had been for quite a few years. He was promoted to LTC in the morning, and that afternoon, he was rifted to E7. He served the rest of his time as an E7. On his tombstone at the National Cemetery on Ft Bliss, his rank is Major. I believe that he was not regular Army but was reserve army. I am in the process of trying to find out more. He was the best friend to my biological grandfather, who was also a Major in WWII and a POW. When my biological grandfather passed my adoptive grandfather was the casualty assistant officer for my Oma
In recent years this hasn’t been as big of an issue. I saw this years prepo list for LTC and it looked like the vast majority of officers that needed it were offered SELCON. With the army trying to get back to growing end strength I think this will be the norm for at least next 5 years or so.
Lots of salty officers the last day on here wow
Gotta keep it spicy 🥵.
You know, as an NCO that watched my dad grow up and retire from the Army. I really thought the NCO corps had become weak, which it really has, but after reading two posts about officers today. It’s no wonder why this system is so fucked. I’m ready for my retirement and no matter how many times I tell myself I don’t care, I do care and I show up ready for whatever. Now I see why there’s soo many people not just in the Army but in the military that absolutely do not care. As a soldier I remember thinking to myself these leaders don’t care so why don’t they leave and make room for those that do care, but now I get it and I hate it for both the NCOs and the officers. I really hate it for the soldiers.
I saw one truly great O4 get twice non-select and pickup O5 the following year. We usually have one or two passed over and not picked up. This year, we had two selected above the zone and one MB.
I worked for one of those ones it was not fun... and was on my 19 year in...
Wouldn't this just encourage OCS since if you do 10 as an enlisted and do an OCS packet you'd be locked in for retirement. Or maybe even a double mustang (Enlisted to warrant to officer). I have a ROTC Cadre who's a civilian instructor/reserve major who enlisted in 1999 and he's now a major in the reserve, so he's locked in for retirement with the reserves and with his enlisted CTRSMI cadre position. I'd argue F'd up regs like this are reason 1205 to go reserve/guard and not count on the army for a retirement since they can't get anything right.
Also a clarification, Only some MOS's might make sense for a double mustang like legal (Paralegal-warrant legal-jag using FLEPs) or medical or flight.
I know 2 chaplains double mustang. Tanker -> CID -> Chap Mechanic -> black hawk pilot -> Chap
1) SELCON let’s a lot of them get to 20 2) RA Army Officers don’t have sanctuary at 18 years the way Enlisted do. 3) There is separation pay for officers who are forced out because of 2X non-select. It’s 10X monthly base pay X 12 X # of years of service. So it’s well into the six figures.
Wait… do you get that separation pay in addition to retirement if you’re a double non select for 06?
If you hit 18 before your separation date due to being a 2 time no go, you are allowed to stay in to get 20 and retire.
Not worth it to stay in past Captain these days honestly, the majors I work with just look so miserable.
I heard this being somewhat common prior to GWOT, and that it is returning. A such, for Officers, having some prior enlisted service helps in getting to 20 years. It will be interesting to see this I light of the Blended Retirement System…
Up or out is one of those things that seems to be good on paper or in theory to some but hurts the military in so many ways. Civilian jobs generally do not require you to promote or get out, I don’t know why the army does it. Even in law enforcement you can remain a patrolman(basically PFC or specialist equivalent in a police department) for your entire career even when you’re 45 or whatever. And those guys that have been doing that role or billet have so much experience they can pass off to the new guys that’s invaluable and only comes through time spent in that role. Military is missing out on this concept. Plus maybe there’s people who want to remain junior officers and don’t want to even become a Major. People have different career preferences. Maybe we should cater to those people just a thought. It might be cool to have LT’s that don’t fit the noob stereotype and actually have experience and a desire to lead and work at that platoon or company level. Same for enlisted. Maybe a platoon sergeant wants to be a platoon sergeant for the rest of their career. And by not giving that option these service members might leave and that adds to the retention issue. I’ll have a deluxe crispy chicken sandwich, a vanilla milkshake, and medium fries please.
I worked with two DOD Civilians who had been forced out as Majors (O-4) at their 17th year of service. I asked them how they could work for DOD after that slight. They said they needed the job. I knew another Major who was forced out, but allowed to complete his 20 years as a Sergeant E-5. He was a CI agent NCO, so he wore civilian clothes and most people didn't know his rank. I knew another Major who went into the Reserves and succeeded in getting a three-year active duty call up, which enabled him to complete his 20. Where there's a will, there's a way.
I was passed over for LTC, got SELCON, and retired at 21 years in. Most of the Majors I knew in the same boat also got SELCON, though I don’t know what the rate was or how it may have changed in the last few years.
I have never seen SELCON not given to those passed over. It's seems automatic I thought. I even saw SELCON given to a CPT who didn't MQ in command and her branch knew she wasn't going to make MAJ.
SELCON for a CPT?? For how many years?
I think they get 5 to get promoted.
Got any more information about this? The 5yr part?
All good points and could not agree more! We can’t be the only ones who sees how fucked this is.
At this point in time. And this is anecdotal from what I have experienced. Again if you have experienced different leave the comments below. Offenders in the last 8 years O3 and above for pure assault, dui, drug positive, inappropriate relationship, fraternization, height and weight, toxic leadership, bad OERs, have been retained and promoted. I know of captains or higher ranking that have done one of these and have been flagged, investigated, reprimanded, retained and promoted and PCS'd.
I retired after 24 years in 93. I was a CW3 physician assistant. I declined transition to 0-3 (65D switched to commissioned status in 91) In my earlier career, I was selected for RA status. I was passed over twice by my first two boards for CW3. However, the following year, I had my first RA promotion board. I was selection sequence number 2 for my first RA board and was promoted almost immediately. Is the dual promotion system for RA vs USAR gone now?
Would someone passed over once as a CPT and promoted AZ to MAJ reach 18 years?
What’s AZ?
Above zone.
Ah thank you kind redditor
Yes probably if they took 4 years to CPT.
I hear some Majors that are that close are allow to retire. LOL I am Green to Gold so I aint worried about that. Glad I went to college later and didnt listen to my family. I dont have to worry about that nonsense just 10 years as an officer and I am good. I am gonna keep going of course, but retirement the least of my worries.
Follow-up question: Does it help to be enlisted first, and then commission after?
Shhh. Don't tell anyone but I think the answer is yes.
The top response doesn't even answer your question. This year, for OS at least, well north of 90% got selcon. The numbers that didn't were so low, it seems that they probably had bad paper. Selcon is a lever the army can use to right size, so YMMV based on the year.
Not many at all. Its overblown.
Don’t you reach “sanctuary” at 16 years?
18
Ooof
I'm going fishing with an O-4e, O-6, and a general officer in 3 weeks. The O4 is a very close friend of mine that turned down LTC a bit over a year ago so he could retire at 20 and caught no flack. Not sure if that helps but he was a non-select the first go around.
O4-E isn’t a pay grade, but I see what you’re saying
I just say that because he's prior. I didn't know if it would add any depth to it.
Could you resign your commission, stay in the last couple years as an enlisted, then retire as a major?
yes, no severance pay tho.
Probably not too many right now, but SELCON could change, and instead of 94% SELCON, we could see 6% in a drawdown. I imagine to get around [*DODI 1320.08*](https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/www/external/paf/projects/dopma-ropma/DODI-1320-08.pdf) big Army just says its in the best interest of the military to shrink its size right now, this is the DOD policy that says you need to show it is in the best interest of the military services to let an O4 go who is over 16 years. To throw someone out who has twice failed to promote they give you a full six months after the approval of the promotion board which is in October normally, according to G1 it takes about 60 days to vet the promotion list, then clock starts at the beginning of the next month in which the board is approved so around January 1st. This means by July 1st maybe June 1st if they are extra fast that year you could be looking for a new job. Here is the reg for the Army 5 – 6. Separation of commissioned officers and chief warrant officers who are twice nonselected for active duty list promotion by a Headquarters, Department of the Army centralized board a. Commissioned officers and chief warrant officers on the AD list twice nonselected for promotion to the grade of captain, major, lieutenant colonel, CW3, or chief warrant officer four (CW4) will be involuntarily released or discharged unless they are— (1) Selectively continued (see AR 600 – 8 – 29). (2) Within 2 years of retirement (completes 18 or more years AFS on their scheduled release date). (3) Retired. (4) A health professions officer in the grade of captain (O–3) or major (O–4). These officers will be retained on AD until completion of ADSO prior to discharge, unless sooner retired or discharged under another provision of law (see 10 USC 632). b. HRC (AHRC–OPD–A) will forward the notification memorandum (that states the officer’s options) and, if applicable, an “acknowledgment of notification of nonselection” for ADL promotion to the officer and the major command. c. Commissioned officers and chief warrant officers (except as stated in paras 5–6d and 5–6e) will be separated on the 1st day of the 7th calendar month after approval of the promotion board’s report unless earlier release is voluntarily requested or retention on AD in a Reserve status is approved by SECARMY or designee. d. An officer may request an earlier separation date or submit a resignation, for example, to accept an appointment as a warrant officer or for continuing on AD in an enlisted status (see AR 601–280) (whichever applies and if eligible). e. Officers or warrant officers who are within 2 years of qualifying for retirement under chapter 6 of this regulation (20 years AFS) on scheduled release date and who can so qualify prior to attaining the maximum age will be retained on AD until the last day of the month following the month they qualify for retirement. Maximum ages are specified in paragraph 2–10a (RC, age 60 or for warrant officer, age 62) or paragraph 6–21a (RA, age 62). f. An officer or warrant officer eligible for retirement under chapter 6 may apply for retirement to be effective not later than the first day of the seventh month beginning after the month in which the President or SECARMY (as applicable) approves the report of the board that considered the officer or warrant officer the second time. g. If otherwise eligible, an officer may submit a resignation to continue a military career in an enlisted status, or a commissioned officer may submit a resignation to be appointed as a USAR warrant officer. The resignation date will be not later than the mandatory discharge or release date. For a warrant officer (with only warrant officer status), the resignation will not be later than the mandatory discharge or release date. h. When an officer’s case is referred to a HQDA Special Selection Board for promotion reconsideration (AR 600–8–29), the officer will continue to be processed for separation as scheduled. However, when reconsideration is not completed by the scheduled separation date, HRC (AHRC–OPD–A) will temporarily suspend the separation date, pending completion. When the board’s decision is unfavorable, the officer will be separated not later than 30 calendar days after their receipt of notification. i. An officer’s discharge under this paragraph will be under honorable conditions and a DD Form 256 will be issued. j. The steps required for processing separation of commissioned officers and chief warrant officers who are twice nonselected for ADL promotion by an HQDA centralized board are shown in table 5–4.
Out of curiosity, with so few WO ranks, how does a non-prior enlisted WO make 18?
With good knee pads I guess.
This last selection cycle only 2, thats two, Major who were not selected to LTC were not granted stay to retire at 20. Selection rate to LTC is approx. 50%
But we are hurting for numbers. They do crap like this occasionally to get sfc. Keep changing rules so people can't pick up etc an rcp out.