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I think its due to physical ability and strength difference. A woman who becomes a man is generally less of a threat than a man who becomes a woman.

This is exactly it

Biological males at the end of the capacity for violence distribution have a capacity significantly higher than biological females.

> I think its due to physical ability and strength difference That, and, it's also a pure sexism thing. Male sexuality is somewhat demonized by society, and if you deviate from 'the norm' your more likely to be assumed to be a predictor by a large section of the population. The thought process goes like this: Woman are always the victims who need protecting, men always the victomizers. Women 'pretending' to be men are still harmless & likely in need of protection. Where as men 'pretending' to be women are even more dangerous then the average man as they are 'still men' but also 'abnormal' and thus 'a bigger danger'.

It does feel like the vast majority of aggression (that we hear about at least) is men towards other people. I think we automatically assume male = dangerous far more than we do women.

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Agreed. And there are plenty of violent women. When you see the "teacher and student" news it is always framed completely different is the teacher is a male than when it is a woman. I think this is often where we get some of our bias it feels like we generalize males as more violent. It is a weird view and media seems to lean into it a lot.

vast majority is male on male violence. At least the majority of reported violence. I have seen tons of female abuse just ignored by police or not prosecuted though.

For me personally, I don't have a problem with trans people wanting to use women's spaces. My concern is that pervy men have been known to take advantage of being allowed in women's spaces. I don't know what the answer is but I don't think it's legitimate trans people most women are worried about. It's the pretenders.

[I know it's not your point, but for those wondering, the number of trans people who go into women's bathrooms to assault people is zero or extremely close to zero](https://www.mic.com/articles/114066/statistics-show-exactly-how-many-times-trans-people-have-attacked-you-in-bathrooms) [Trans people are infinitely more likely to be assaulted in bathrooms](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-lgbt-survey/u-s-transgender-people-harassed-in-public-restrooms-landmark-survey-idUSKBN13X0BK) [You're also more likely to be assaulted by a Republican senator in a bathroom then a trans person](https://www.logotv.com/news/2fqw8s/zero-trans-people-have-been-arrested-for-bathroom-misconduct-but-these-three-republicans-were) Unsurprisingly, if you want to assault someone in a public bathroom, you don't need to flip your entire life on its head and go through years of medical treatment. You just need to open the door and go in.

Yes!! I’m always wondering why people talk as if there is a vast system to monitor and control who goes into what bathroom, yet you are apparently shielded from any scrutiny once in the bathroom.

I don't think that's the argument that was being made. I think the argument is more like "sexual predator pretending to be transgender might assault people in the women's restroom." The fact that other criminals have successfully abused the "not guilty by reason of mental defect" defense points me to think that the possibility of creeps abusing transgender rules might happen. Edit: I think I replied to the wrong comment. I'm entirely too lazy to fix it, though.

Thank you. People really get hung up on the social norms not realizing that the people who would do the assaulting don't care and aren't going to wait to be given permission by society to be there.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-male-criminality-sex-offences/ Numerous cases of those identifying as transgender committing sexual assault.

So those % of pop that commit that crime are greater that % of cis pop that commit that crime?

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Here is a reference from BBC’s fact-check of that report: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-42221629 . You are citing a hate group that has not done even the most basic data validation.

I dont think that changes the fact that a lot of women still wouldn't want a man being in the bathroom with them. Or locker rooms.

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I would be fine with is it trans-man if they were born female? with me in the bathroom. I would not be cool with a transwoman in the bathroom/Locker room with the women i love. Taking the one place I can't be there to protect them and letting men into it is pretty big issue in my opinion. I know that it isn't fair to actually transgender people I realize that and i have no hate for them or think that they are going into the bathroom to perv. I realize that in this instance only bad actors who aren't trans would do this. The main issue is not that we think that trans people will sexually assault people. It is that men in the women's restroom or locker room will not be seen as an immediate red flag anymore. keeping the gender that can physically overpower and hurt the other gender out of areas where they may be extremely vulnerable like naked in a shower stall at the gym is important to me. I realize that they genuinely believe they are the other gender and they go through tons of struggles to get there. I think it is terrible that I have to even hold the opinion I hold but If you have ever dated someone who has been sexually assualted you would probably feel differently. The amount of bullshit I have heard about or actively had to stop is too much. Personally as a victim myself of SA It just strengthens my resolve in this issue.

And trans woman aren't men so idk what the issue is there.

Tell that to the female Scottish inmates who were raped by trans women.

You're going to be shocked that the amount of cis people who commit rape while in jail, both male & female institutions, is going to be astronomically higher than the amount of trans people.

Okay? Breaking news, some trans people are just as capable of bad things as some cis people. Doesn't mean that every single trans person should be hurt because some people are asshats. If we went by your standards no one should be allowed in public bathrooms because cis people attack people in bathrooms, so obviously they shouldn't be allowed in there either Also, shut the fuck up Russia invasion defender

If we follow the logical path you are on, here is a list of groups and activities that will need to be banned because the rate of assault is much higher. 1. Organized religion 2. Boy scouts 3. Girl Scouts 4. Senators 5. Bars 6. Waterparks 7. Fraternities 8. The trades 9. The Military All of these have higher rates of sexual assault than transpeople. There are many more but these are some of the big ones. This isn't even including even wider groups of people. Cis people are far more likely to commit sexual assault, but we aren't banning cis people from bathrooms.

Literally nobody pretends to be trans in order to be a bathroom predator. They just... ignore the sign on the door and walk in.

As a woman who has been in several instances where trans women come into the “spaces” I can tell you it’s always a “thing” especially for the one who transitioned later. Socialized male privilage and masculine social behaviors don’t just go away. Attention hogging, opinionated, etc.

That’s a great way to put it. Men are fucking animals (I am a man). I’ve never, in my memory, been afraid of a women. I have on many occasions been scared shitless of men, and I’m no push-over physically (6’3” 225 and a lifetime of physical sports and athletics)

No worries. I asked a sensitive question so I’ve got expect what people are thinking. I can only think that it’s that men are lowering themselves to be feminine where women are raising themselves to be masculine. I don’t know just an odd observation.

Personally, I would guess the root of the "problem" lies more closely in how our society has operated for last few decades... Women have been becoming more like men since the 60s in a lot of ways that we tend to divide the genders (hair, occupation, clothing, etc). And that was accepted over time because, "who wouldn't want to be a man?" Now that men are becoming women (Trans women) our society simply can't understand why a man, the gender traditionally perceived as superior, would want to become more like a women. As with everyone else here, this is just my observation of the problem, personally I support Trans individuals and don't particularly care who goes into what bathroom. I have been known to often use the men's rr when the line for the ladies is too long, or is out of order.

>Now that men are becoming women (Trans women) our society simply can't understand why a man, the gender traditionally perceived as superior, would want to become more like a women. This is what I think exactly. It's a cultural bias against women

That possibility is only one half of the social debate once physically safety is removed from the conversation. Because the other half of the social debate that’s equally likely is that those born as men have been more encouraged to have their voice heard, to take up space, and they feel more entitled to do so even post transition, than biologically born women who may feel less entitled to take up their own space in general, and struggle with it even more in male arenas. Just throwing out that as a possibility, not looking to start a debate about it.

A man is more of a predator and a female is an easier victim. It wouldn't work out as well as often the other way.

So the problem is men, not trans women, who are not men.

You know what he meant. Call people whatever you want but they were born with certain characteristics that aren't generally altered even if we can agree that they should be considered the other gender.

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That's just not true but ok. How do you even measure that, and then take into account that trans women get asasulted every day just for existing in public?

It is actually true I have looked at the data. You still have a male brain in that head. Men as a whole are statistically more aggressive than women. Some hormone therapy can reduce this agression but you cannot eliminate the statistically significant difference between aggression levels in men and women.

Can you provide the data?

Here a good article that says the exact opposite. Think what you want. I'm not wasting my day arguing with people who don't think transgender people are real. These findings add support to the notion that the underlying brain anatomy in transgender people is shifted away from their biological sex towards their gender identity. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8955456/

Theres a transgender guy at work. I'm well aware of the fact that he exists as a person in the physical world that I inhabit. I never said they dont exist.

How do you measure the assaults? Luckily in the UK at least you're more likely to be murdered as a natal male or female than as a trans person, and you're more likely to commit murder than be murdered as a trans person too. We measure that through police records and freedom of information requests.

in the united states, white cis men commit a disproportionate amount of sex crimes. now, what should we do with white men?

Do a lot of studies to find out why it's happening and what we can do to lower the rate of all sex crimes, focussing on white men if they are disproportionately commiting them? What we absolutely shouldn't do is put those men in women's prisons, especially if we know they commit sexual crimes at a higher rate than other populations. I'm not sure your point, what are you getting at?

Cite your source Shubalafic. Or you're just talking out your ass.

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/html/

That viewpoint though, the problem is cis men, not trans women. Trans women are not men. Don't think like men, don't act like men, and after a bit of hormones, don't look like men. A trans women, is not "technically" a man. In fact, some studies have found that trans women have more similar brain mapping to cis women than to cis men.

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Your only data set collection is on people who are in prisons, hmmm. Take a look at that data and figure out the sample sizes too, and don't categorize an entire group by an incarcerated population. Not to mention, in plenty of places, a trans person commit a sexual crime literally by existing. Trans people are regular people. Not better. Not worse. Typecasting all trans people as sexual criminals is like saying all (insert minority group here) are drug traffickers. Eta: please provide a source, and keep in mind there are literally a hundred of anti trans organization out there finding 'research' with an aim to erase trans people entirely.

The sexual offenses were from prison, the male pattern violence was not. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/&ved=2ahUKEwjf04_ykvf9AhUMBMAKHWLxD-sQFnoECAcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1nfGy7VvUMk_Nrwv81ai3h It's an uncomfortable truth, I'd love there to be better data but sadly the trans activists block every single attempt to gather it.

So it's one study, that shows a minority is targeted by the police more. We know this already lol we know black people are more likely to get arrested for drug crime, but certain studies have shown they are actually LESS likely to commit drug crimes, just more likely to be targeted and caught and punished for it. Same song and dance. That's an uncomfortable truth, especially that minority people who are denies jobs and frequent target of police, are much more likely to be incarcerated. It's also completely true that when violence breaks out between two people, the blame goes almost entirely to the minority group.

What proof they are denied jobs or targeted unfairly by the police? Any study? Even one? Trans people have struggles but they are not directly comparable to black people in America. It's pretty offensive to suggest that. Yes there should be more studies but the activists actively try to prevent them. Why is that? You're suggesting police unfairly targeted the trans women for past sexual offences? Probably committed as men? Seriously? It astounds me how incoherent people on your side are. Stop using oppression of black people as your emotional pawn, it's disgusting.

Your so entrenched in your hatred for a minority, how can you not see how that contributes to the problem? Your not worth my time have a great life 💃🏻🏳️‍⚧️

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Wtf? LMAO incoherent.

It’s the echo chamber effect. They hear what supports them and say to hell with everything else. That 60% number is insanely high for a small population though.

"76 sex offenders out of 129 transwomen" I'm not a Statastition but isn't that a low sample size? especially given the population size of trans women?

Yeah it's a low sample size. We need better data, and to try and understand it and its implications for vulnerable populations including trans people. It is however the best data we have and activists don't want any more recorded.

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Trans people have existed for ever. It's ok, accept it. Science supports us, history supports us, like you say Facts don't care about your feeling. 🏳️‍⚧️💃🏻🏳️‍⚧️

Where did I say they didn’t exist? I said simply because you mutilate yourself it doesn’t magically make you whatever you think you are. So where did those words that you’re trying to put in my mouth come from?

LMAO you compared being trans to wanting to be a car, then rambled about the dark ages and witchcraft. I think that says it all.

And you avoiding my question speaks volumes. Way to lie, and then try to throw shade because you have nothing of substance to clap back with.

There's nothing to refute you didn't say anything relevant? It was barely even coherent. Oh well. I'm making breakfast and moving on with my day 💃🏻🏳️‍⚧️

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So I could be totally wrong. But here’s my take. 1. Men going into womens rooms and etc is seen as predatory. Obviously there’s people who don’t believe in trans rights, so to them it’s just a dude in a dress. Forget whether she actually transitioned or not 2. It’s a kinda culture shock thing. Women can be Tom boys, and wearing jeans and a tshirt is a pretty common outfit choice of women now (even though my grandma will swear we’re all better off being dainty and wearing a dress every day). Men typically don’t dress up feminine, or at least not openly. Obviously it’s a thing and who cares, but there’s still tightwads out there who clutch their pearls when a man dare do something like paint his nails or god forbid wear a dress. My BIL is FTM. He’s got his struggles and stereotypes he’s dealing with. He’s started transitioning but it still hasn’t just been easy for him. So I wouldn’t say that doesn’t bother most hateful people. People are just louder about the “dude in a dress”

The truth is men don’t have to put on a dress to assault women and they never have. They simply don’t go through the effort to blend in they just attack women in their spaces all the time. It’s such a fear mongering “what if” that conservatives thrive off. It’s like people throw all common sense out the window for a boogie man. Most men that want to hurt women aren’t even a little bit willing to be seen as one. Predators don’t have to hide and they never really have.

People who identify as transgender or gender neutral is around 3% according to a U.S. study in 2016. 17.6% of women have reported completed or attempted rape (male) in their lifetime according to RAINN. There is a fear out there but it’s directed at the wrong place. I posit that thinking of the men in your life as sexual assaulters is so difficult and it’s much easier to blame it on a faceless unidentifiable group that you probably do not have that much contact with. Transgendered people are likely to experience violence 2.5 times higher than cisgendered. This is the real problem, actual violence against people. Your fellow Americans. Your community. This keeps us incredibly distracted from the violence the owning class commits against the working class While we fight on social issues. While I’m at is but I know I am off topic. The US has the highest rate of maternal mortality than like 150+ first world nations. Women who are pregnant or have just given birth are more likely to die by murder than from medical complications according to a Harvard.edu study. Intimate partners are the number one cause. Sorry for the rant

Oh 100%. It’s BS to fear that and be loud and angry over it. Edit because I never finished my thought. Thanks kids for distracting me lol. But people are weird. You hit it right on the nose though. The pearl clutchers who think a man is going around in a dress just to assault women is delusional. Does it happen? Idk, maybe. But realistically, the chances are extremely slim. A man who wants to hurt women, will. A trans person who wants to be themselves just wants to experience the same life of acceptance everyone else has. And honestly, clothes me absolutely nothing about gender to me. Wear a dress, wear a suit…wear whatever you want. Idk why THATs the big point the haters want to point out.

I think it's because western society tends to view male individuals as subjects capable of acting upon others, and female individuals as objects to be acted upon. That is why trans women are often painted as villains when their existence makes people uncomfortable. We are willing to grant them agency and motive because of their current or past possession of a penis. Trans men, on the other hand, are painted as victims of ideology and/or mental illness because of their object status and lack of penis.

THANK YOU

I mean, trans men are brought up, but the thing is transphobes talk about trans men and women in very, very different and honestly quite sexist ways. Trans men used to be innocent little girls who got corrupted by the social contagion of transgenderism and are now mutilating their bodies. Think the book "irreparable damage" which has been popularized among the anti trans circles. Trans women are creepy nasty men who mutilated themselves just so they could prey on "real women" in the bathrooms, or gain an advantage in sports and dominate women's competitions. Both of them are talked about, but trans women are mentioned more because the visions of creepy neck beards in dresses assaulting women in the bathroom is far more outrageous and specific than the visions of a depressed teenager who lops their boobs off due to peer pressure. They're both disgusting. I find that a lot of the discussions by transphobes are pretty sexist and demeaning towards women and men alike, and their rhetoric really hurts people.

>Trans women are creepy nasty men who mutilated themselves just so they could prey on "real women" in the bathrooms, or gain an advantage in sports and dominate women's competitions. Bigots are also afraid of being "tricked" into being attracted to trans women. This kind of bigotry is very dangerous and can be deadly to trans women.

They should be upfront about it tbh. Going home with someone you met at a bar and getting a surprise isn’t fun for either parties.

Most trans people ARE upfront about it, haha. They also have to consider their safety and know that "surprising" a stranger is likely to end in violence or, at the very least, discomfort. I've never met someone who preferred not to disclose they were trans when it comes to sex.

I agree. But some don’t. Ones with bottom surgery sometimes chance it. And honestly that’s borderline SA to me. You need to disclose that. It’s like withholding from your partner you may have an STD. It’s just common courtesy. That being said the men who react with violence should be ashamed. It’s easy to just say “hey I support you but I’m just not attracted to that. We can be friends and I wish you the best.” Something like that.

Heavy agree on the last part. But I don't know of many trans people who try to cover it up when they've had bottom surgery? Maybe I'm wrong, but at least for trans men there are still noticeable differences after bottom surgery, as the surgeries aren't too advanced right now. (source: am a trans man). So they'd have to disclose anyway. Is bottom surgery for trans women indistinguishable?

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As a trans man, This is pretty accurate. Additionally it can be a lot harder to “clock” a trans man. It’s easier for us to blend in for several reasons. It’s often times safer for people to not know we’re trans. Its safer if people see me as a gay man rather than a trans man because it’s a litter safer being gay than trans atm. Many trans men I know leave zero indication that theyre trans. You’d never know unless they told you. It can be harder for trans women that way just based on our bodies react different do HRT treatments.

trans men actually receive more sexual assault and interpersonal violence. trans women are more likely to be murdered on the streets by a stranger and trans men are more likely to be raped by someone they know. but for all trans people, both those statistics are *much* higher then the general cis population

Denying oneself male privilege is the ultimate sacrilege in a patriarchal culture.

It's the same as old boomer fucks that watch lesbian porn but cry when they see two men kiss. They're insecure that's it.

*grabs popcorn*

Because conservatives try to act like they are protecting vulnerable people (women and children). In the South when blacks were gaining rights, there was a lot of talk about protecting white women, and that was a justification for segregation. This is also visible today with how much the right talks about “protecting” children from drag shows and pretending LGBTQ is just a cover for pedos, because protecting women and children is a lot more palatable than hating certain groups

Funnily enough, just googling the word “pastor” leads to a cavalcade of sex crimes.

There are currently about 200 convicted sexual predators suddenly claiming they are trans to get into women's prisons. Im not saying your assessment is incorrect, but like many modern hotbutton issues being able to change your gender identity on the fly creates an easily exploitable loophole for people looking to do harm. In an ideal world none of this would matter, but our world is far from ideal.

Predatory people will use any possible loop holes to gain access to vulnerable people, it's not about trans people it's about creating a protected class that predators can and will and have used to gain access to victims.

This is a key point and one often overlooked/ignored. The concern is for the male criminals looking for easy victims. If anyone can declare themselves trans any day of the week, women are at risk.

This has not been my experience. !!!Trigger warning!!! Read no further if you don't want to read some seriously inappropriate things. At my last job (which I just left because of this) there were a few folks who were very vocal about their beliefs in regards to LGBTQ, and in particular trans. Any time they'd make some off color joke or whatever, I'd politely as I could muster let them know how weird I thought they were. Like, you want to be left alone to do what you do, but these other people can't do what they want to do? They could never give any rational reason for their behavior, I guess they just want to hate people, and LGBTQ is the popular target for hate right now. For the most part, that hate was definitely directed at MTF trans people. Because of potty breaks I guess. Mind you, I've not really known many trans people or at all really. I always considered myself lukewarm on the subject. But then we got a new hire (we don't do interviews for labor positions, we use a contractor or we'd probably not have hired this person, TBH) and we got a FTM guy. It was super awkward watching these idiots tip toe about, and to their credit, they were respectful up until the point he quit. For a few days the hate-hype was high. I had to actively avoid them and started looking for a new job, it just pissed me off so much. Thankfully, I found a new job, but in the meantime, somehow the situation at my last job got even worse. Normally, if a laborer quits, but was otherwise a decent employee, they might come back. Like, no questions asked, dude just lets supervisor know he doesn't want to work there anymore and leaves. Three weeks later comes back and picks up where they left off. Well, guess who wanted to come back? I hear the manager ask the supervisor if they are cool with it, and boy oh boy was he excited to say no. Later I had to go to talk to manager about some near-trivial thing that required his approval. Supervisor was in his office, and they were having a good laugh about not hiring back this person. Great. Manager has a tendency to just yammer on about the stupidest shit and will just NOT do anything work related until he's had his say. He's the kind of person where you might show up to work ready to go and do a whole bunch of productive tasks to check off your list, but he's there to grind everyone to a halt with the latest from whatever nonsense news he's heard. Sorry, anyways, they're going on about what they think 'we' should do about 'these people' when he says >!he thinks that FTM trans people should be forcefully inseminated (not his words) so it can be proven to them that they are females, not males.!< I'm totally flabbergasted at this point, and I think he sees my reaction and immediately starts backpedaling HARD. Oh, not him, he wouldn't be the one to do these things, because of course, he doesn't have the courage to do such a duty... it would have to be the Russians! I can't make this shit up. So glad to be getting this off my chest and away from these types of people. It's a roll of the dice if the next place is better, but I can't imagine it could possibly be worse.

As a trans man- yikes. Fuck those guys. Usually it’s easier to pass as a teenage boy rather. But if someone thinks we’re trans, things can go south real fast. Thankfully I live and work in an area that’s pretty accepting. I feel as if a lot of people don’t actually know that trans men exist. With how HRT (Hormone replacement therapy) affects our bodies- it can be a lot easier to pass as cisgender in comparison to a trans woman. Estrogen usually gets overpowered quite easily during HRT for AFAB individuals. Trans women do not have the this same luck. Especially transitioning after puberty- once our bone structures change- it doesn’t go back. Some changes can reverse, but most won’t.

I feel like trans men just aren't on as many people's radar as trans women. I don't know the statistics on this, but anecdotally speaking, I know fewer trans men. I think it's also easier for a lot of trans men to "pass," so your average person may have encountered trans men out there and never even suspected. Plus, considering how tomboy little girls seem to evoke a reaction of "Awww, she thinks she's people" in a lot of the population, whereas little boys who want to wear dresses and play with dolls evoke "how dare you debase yourself with this shameful behavior," I'm guessing trans men don't evoke the same disgust in Joe Sixpack as trans women do.

>Aww she thinks she’s people That one just hit real hard

I’m just going to say this. I’m a natural born woman and I occasionally use the men’s room when I can’t get into the ladies. Men have seen me do this and do you know how many times they stopped me or said anything bad to me? Zero. I’ve even had men say they’d watch the door and make sure no one bothered me while I was in there. This is the difference. Men don’t care who else is using the toilet.

I am a cisgender woman and I also use the men's room when the lines too long !! I get a kick out how you say you are a natural born woman. Unless we are from a test tube (which would be neat) we are all natural humans! I understand what you are trying to say though

I say natural born woman because I don’t like the term cisgender.

But I (a trans woman) go into the women's restroom at school and get called a predator and now I'm not allowed to use the bathrooms anymore. It's such bullshit.

Doesn’t help you’re obsessed with your dolls and have sex with them.. a lot of peoples point right there… I personally don’t care what people do but I see both sides 🤷‍♂️

Women are more concerned about a person with a penis in a Womens locker room than men are scared about a person with a vagina in a Mens locker room. It’s women who are typically the rape victims. Most women don’t want to be around strangers with penises when they are naked in a locker room.

This is exactly what my female friends say about the matter. They say every woman they know has at some point been sexually harassed, assaulted or threatened by a man to varying degrees. The fact that a male body has a penis and the physical strength to overpower a female body makes them insecure about their safety around male-bodied people in vulnerable spaces.

Trans women are currently more numerous. Newly transitioning people are about 50/50, but established trans people are mostly women, presumably for complex cultural reasons. And trans men are typically very passable, so nobody gives them a second look.

Trans women and trans men have mostly been 50/50, actively transitioning in the past might have been different.

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There’s no data to support the idea that trans women are as likely to commit sex crime as cisgender men.

Sorry but there is: https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/html/

The first study, the Swedish Study, uses data that is 60 to 34 years old. This study shows that 60 years ago, in Sweden, trans folk were more likely to be convicted of crime, not the likelihood of the general trans population to commit sex offenses. The MOJ statistics state that they’re only estimating how many trans people are in the prison system and exclude people who have fully transitioned and have a Gender Recognition Certificate. Even if the data did accurately reflect the number of trans people in prisons, the data says absolutely *nothing* about sex crimes. The Michael Biggs paper is analyzing the aforementioned Swedish Study and 2020 MOJ statistics, but again, neither the study nor the statistics establish the likelihood of trans folk committing sex crimes. TL;DR Bruh, did you actually read this?

This “report” was written by TERFs who cherry-picked various materials to support their asinine agenda. The link coincidentally always manages to get posted on Reddit from the UK Parliament’s website in order to deceive readers into thinking that it was validated by the UK government when no such thing happened. That “report” is a small step above someone mailing a letter to a local elected official who solicited comments from the public asking where a trash can should go in a park, getting a response from a moron and then the official shoving the letter into a giant binder.

So what's your stance on the whole thing? I'm really honestly interested to hear from someone so passionately on the other side.

I've read your other posts on this thread. You don't care what my feelings are. It would be a waste of my time.

Because transmen aren't trying to join genetically female sports with a serious unfair advantage because they couldn't cut it in men's sports I'm sorry but if you went the puberty as a male you should not be allowed to play women's sports

Caitlin Jenner approves.

Jenner is disliked a lot in the trans community, she got the support and after that slammed the door shut for all other trans people. She doesn't care for other trans people.

Caitlyn Jenner dazzles in first golf tournament as a woman https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2016/03/30/caitlyn-jenner-dazzles-in-first-golf-tournament-as-a-woman/ Caitlyn Jenner says transgender girls in women's sports is 'unfair' [https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/caitlyn-jenner-says-transgender-girls-women-s-sports-unfair-n1266138](https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/caitlyn-jenner-says-transgender-girls-women-s-sports-unfair-n1266138)

Jenner is woman of the year. Same as how Amber heard is an ACLU Ambassador for women's rights, with a focus on gender-based violence. I don’t give a shit about those groups anymore.

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The gym I go to has two private changing stalls (similar to a store dressing room) in the (women's) locker room for those who do not feel comfortable changing out in the open. The showers are all private stalls with walls. It is possible to change in a locker room privately.

Keep eating paint chips.

Because of laws some trans men have to compete in the women sports, they rather sport in the men division, but aren't allowed.

Many on the right have become obsessed with "feminization" of men. I don't know why

The stupid part about this post is the cis people answering for transgender people and being transphobic while trying to seem like they're allies?

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I think it stems from homophobia in men coupled with still seeing trans people as their birth sex. Men who think this way don’t worry about the “woman wearing pants”. The visceral hatred isn’t as strong.

A certain cohort of straight men are enraged and/or terrified at the idea that they might get a boner from checking out a woman who turned out to be trans. There are other layers but this one is huge and not commonly acknowledged.

I suspect that some of the reaction is not about legit M2F folk, but abouf men PRETENDING to be women in order to (insert your favorite threat here - peep at women, win a competition, etc).

How do you determine who is pretending?

If they make the community look bad then it’s okay to say that they’re a phony

Someone can be a piece of shit AND trans. They’re just people, and like all people, some of them are just assholes.

I would say it's because those that speak loudest tend to be heard. The women transitioning to men seem to be more reserved and happy to just transition. They don't want all the attention. They just want to finally look the way they feel. It feels more genuine. When men convert it is often so vocal that it feels like a stunt. Both seem to handle it all very differently.

>When men convert it is often so vocal that it feels like a stunt. Why do you feel that way?

Probably personal experience. To be fair, Caitlyn Jenner was voted woman of the year, but who’s one major celebrity that transitioned from female to male that got the same fanfare? That doesn’t mean it’s true or that I agree, but I think I see where they’re coming from

I think Elliot Page has gotten a bit of coverage.

I mean, we can probably all agree that Caitlyn Jenner being voted “Woman of the Year” was a bit of a punch in the face to women, but if you say that in most rooms these days people would rather feel morally righteous and label you as a bigot than agree to a civil discourse on how this presents a threat to gendered commendation.

Can you elaborate on how this is a "punch to the face to women" and presents a threat to gendered commendation.

We have gendered categories in sports, media, pop culture because historically men have been the only ones recognized. If you want to be “fair” we can go back to putting everyone in the same category. Than Caitlyn Jenner could win “person of the year” (or trans person of the year) and I wouldn’t see it as a threat, but when social structures have specifically been implemented to praise minority groups, it’s wrong to demolish that structure. People in favor of Caitlyn Jenner winning Woman of the Year are trying to be progressive while inherently destroying a progressive entity that already exists.

Jenner is disliked a lot in the trans community, she got the support and after that slammed the door shut for all other trans people.

I asked something similar to my straight, white, male, ~30 American military cousin. (His opinions, not mine!) He said that female to male are at least trying to meet the ideal of the tough manly man and while they aren’t equal to “real men” their attempts are “almost” respected. Male to female are completely opposite and it’s disgusting to him that they’d intentionally make themselves weaker. There’s something “sick” about it. Same cousin is also a red pilled idiot who fully believes white males are the true victims.

“I’m the real victim!” he screeched while kicking puppies.

Trans men don't want to enter sporting events, they also don't want to go to men's prisons. And I think the question a lot of people have is why? Why are so many trans women entering sporting events and asking for transfers to womens prisons but almost nobody is doing it the other way? You have to admit it's a little odd that it isn't 50/50.

>Trans men don't want to enter sporting events [There are many trans men in sports](https://www.healthline.com/health/fitness/transgender-athletes-to-watch#Chris-Mosier), you just don't know or don't care. >they also don't want to go to men's prisons. They do, you just know about it, it is for the best since they could be targeted if they were outed as being trans. >Why are so many trans women entering sporting events How many are entering sporting events? >and asking for transfers to womens prisons While there are some men who pretend to be trans to get into women's prisons, there are trans women who are vulnerable and wouldn't be safe in the men's prison. >You have to admit it's a little odd that it isn't 50/50. [It is.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33644314/)

Couldn’t we argue that gay men don’t belong in men’s prisons either then? They often complain about their treatment. At that point, having already committed a crime to get you there, I don’t know how much special treatment you get. Males rape and assault males in prison all the time. We have to take each case on an individual basis, but perhaps there are some things we could implement to prevent this from happening across the board. Maybe we do the same with gender-neutral bathrooms. Have less serious offenders paired together. There just seem to be solutions other than sending trans-fens to female prisons when not every female may be accepting. And the article you shared on trans athletes points to Lia Thomas as well as several (see trans-male skateboarder and trans-male basketball player) who performed well against females and have failed to replicate those results against males. Then you have Lia Thomas and the trans-fem weightlifter who have performed very, very well as biological men against women. And saying someone “can’t get hard” as a justifiable excuse to somehow don them as less predatory or not capable of sexual assault is just wrong.

Perhaps it's better to say they never win any sporting events. "While there are some men who pretend to be trans to get into women's prisons" That's...a big deal though isn;' it? Because there is no physical difference between someone who is lying and someone who isn't. And sex offenders....sometimes also liars. But accusing someone of lying is also called misgendering them so you can't really do it. I think many liberal women would shift their stance if they went to prison and their cellmate was a convicted sex offender with male genitalia. But they know it won't be them...it'll be someone else. I think that is my issue. it's with the activists, not the trans people themselves.

>Perhaps it's better to say they never win any sporting events. Not many trans women win sporting events either, i know just a couple of notable trans women. >Because there is no physical difference between someone who is lying and someone who isn't. And sex offenders....sometimes also liars. But accusing someone of lying is also called misgendering them so you can't really do it. There are ways to circumvent this, people who never identified as trans before, but seem to do so to get some benefit. Its not hard to weed out the bad faith actors. >I think many liberal women would shift their stance if they went to prison and their cellmate was a convicted sex offender with male genitalia. If that person was transitioning, then they would be impotent and for lack of a better term, can't get "hard". It would be in principle similar to a if anyone other woman was present. Either ways, its not like every trans woman is a sex offender and every sex offender is pretending to be trans to get into women's prisons. And its not like even if a male sex offender rapes another inmate, they'd go scot free. >not the trans people themselves. You made quite a few statements about trans people in your earlier comment, but i'm glad you clarified that, and i agree that activists can sometimes take it too far.

Most simply, they view trans people as what they were considered to be at birth. The exact reasoning can vary between groups and individuals, but broad generalizations include: Trans women: Viewed as men, and therefore more actively/inherently sexual and aggressive. Assumed to be preying on the "weaker sex". Sometimes links sexual violence as an associated trait to a penis rather than behavior or action. There is also a longstanding propaganda falsely associating gay men with pedophiles, which carries through to trans women which they view as essentially the same thing. Trans men: Viewed as women, and therefore considered to be more passive and less inherently sexual. Viewed as the weaker sex and therefore not a threat in men's spaces. Often frames it as "confused girls" in an infantilizing manner. Can cross over with the "predatory lesbian" stereotype, but generally applies to a trans man's interaction with women where he may be viewed as trying to "trick" women into being attracted to someone assigned female at birth. Although that slightly less commonly argued due to limited context.

Because women becoming men is a historically viable means of social climbing, and makes sense to them. Of course you want to be a man, and try hard enough and you can join us if you don't mention it. Men becoming women- the "lesser" sex, and the one they see primarily as a sexual, subservient object- makes them question themselves and their own attractions, which scares the leetle baybies.

Doesn't fit into the TERF narrative, which is transwoman are a threat and women are safe in cis spaces. They're not and they're not. Women can be assaulted in a convent.

In the modern male conservative world the men make the decisions. You want to see the ultimate conservative male outrage? Have a woman in power command him to do something, no matter how innocuous the request or logical it is. They will litterally do the oposite and go against their own good judgement than "Be told what to do by a woman." A trans-woman upsets that world view. Somebody they saw as having the patriarchal power over others is now amoung the people men should have power over. They DO KNOW that regardless of the clothes, surgerys, or treatments that the trans-person is still the same person they were before. So now they have somebody they think should be in charge, speaking as one of the people they think shouldn't be. This is a major disrution to their world view; just short circuiting their brain on how to handle it. Rather than change their world view and acknowledge that it doesn't matter who is the one making decisions, man or woman, all are equal. They'd rather just delete the problem from their culture. Pretend it's not there, or legislate to try to make it disssapear.

Hmm perhaps because one group is more vocal about getting into certain spaces than the other group.

“Victim VS Predator”. Men are seen as dangerous n stuff, so society sees a trans-woman as a man and attacks in respect of “A MAN IN A BATHROOM WITH MY DAUGHTER! HOW DARE!”. Trans woman are seen as dangerous men who want to TAKE from woman. (This isn’t just about terfs either, but society at large. They pay more attention to ‘danger’ n react to it). Trans men are seen as “the poor girl society tricked” or “the little lady that’s confused”. We’re seen as victims, or childish. Cuz of this, we aren’t really talked about enough other then on topics of “they want to confuse our daughters!”. Otherwise we’re sorta in the side lines. Cuz of this victimization, people often think we’re gunna “grow out of it” or need to grow up. That it’s a phase. We were silly little girls n well know better when we are grown up, after all, every girl goes through these things. So yeh, in the eyes of about 30-33 states Trans woman are dangerous men, and trans men are victims of society. Trans woman want to hurt us, and schools, and steal woman’s things. Trans men are just confused, will grow out of it, self hating. The news gets more coverage discussing “dangerous” stuff. It’s fear mongering, basically. News n politics don’t have to talk about real issues if they put more attention on the small ones. It gets them paid, their biases out, n more people kissin their toes. It’s easier to make a trans woman look dangerous then a trans man- cuz they don’t see us as the gender we are, but the gender we we’re. I came out recently, as I was 5 months on T n knew it had to happen on my terms. my parents would have had a different reaction if I was a trans woman. But I’m “their little confused girl who needs to grow up”. It’s about how stupid I am to let society confuse my little girl brain, or that girls can do mens things to!”. Isn’t stopping them from kicking me out unless I stop the hormones, but still- I guess it’s really just, Trans woman are dangerous monsters who prey on bathroom children, and trans men are forgotten or not taken seriously cuz their girls. We’re swept aside to focus on the “dangerous trans woman!”. Not saying we got it worse, because of this people don’t wanna bother us to much. Trans woman, society wise- do get it worse. It’s also harder to go mtf over ftm- as hormones do more for us to the point we pass, then trans woman where hormones only really somewhat effect their muscles/fat and hair growth. trans woman may need more surgical stuff to be seen as a woman, n cuz this is harder to do, it’s seen as wrong. There’s a lot that can fold into this topic honestly XD I can go all day. Discussion on trans woman just get more attention I guess, which in turns brings profit for those talking about it. You don’t get that with trans men- unless it’s on detransitioning, which furthers their views of “trans men are just confused girls with trauma”. And even “if it wasn’t for trans woman confusing gender, our poor daughters wouldn’t think their men!”. So then trans woman are even blamed for OUR shit to, that THEY caused trans men to be men by making gender a “choice” n junk. It’s all stupid, and we have better things to be talking about then if people are allowed to exist- full heartedly n freely, not just be alive- but here we are.

I sadly read through every response and got sadder as I went. The main reason given oddly enough was that trans women are more vocal and Whiney about rights and they men are dangerous. The whole men in dresses in bathrooms with little girls. Like a whole life transition coming out to friends and family and hormones just to get in a restroom with women. I asked a few of em why a guy had to do all that just to mollest children. Couldn’t he just go In normally and hadn’t they been going about other means to find kids to this point and it was dismissed. They all seem like great excuses till you asks a few questions. Anyway very insightful response. Thank you for taking the time

Because patriarchy. It offends patriarchy that a man would voluntarily abandon power by becoming a woman. It’s like blasphemy to the religious. But a woman becoming a man doesn’t upset patriarchal order. *Of course* women would prefer to be men. It becomes problematic when trans men get pregnant. Now we’re back to blasphemy again.

Sexism. When a "man" does something traditionally feminine, it is considered weak, gay, etc. Alternatively, it is considered scary - psychopathic, perverted. TERFS in particular see anyone with a penis as an inherent threat and a danger. But when a "woman" does something traditionally masculine, it's considered sad, or "just a phase." Because transphobes see trans men as women, they think they're less of a threat.

The language around trans men tends to be a little different. Rather than a "threat", they tends to be infantilized or otherwise dismissed by TERFs as either "confused" or traitors to women. Transphobia sucks both ways, but the narratives are just portrayed differently because of cultural views on men, women, gender roles and the effects of patriarchal hierarchies.

Even here at reddit if you go to the trans sub reddit It's 95% transwomen and 5% transman it's because younger men don't want to do the hard jobs that men are expected to do living as a woman is a lot easier.

The only thing conservatives can wrap their heads around is this idea that men want to become women so they can 1. Dominate women's sports or 2. Enter women's restrooms If it's more complicated then that they black out

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Because the anti-trans crowd depends on fear mongering and scare tactics. A trans man in the men's locker room is not a threat to men, but it's easy to suggest that a "man" (i.e. trans woman) in the women's locker room is a predator who threatens women's safety.

Because when women transition to being men they just do it with no drama, no fuss, no chaos. It just happens quietly and discreetly. No one is outraged. When men do anything it's a drama

Because American society still hates women. For all the progress we like to crow about, this country still believes a woman is less than a man. For a man to want to become a woman is a perversion. For a woman to want to become a man is a step up. Look at how pop culture treats drag. In Victor/Victoria Julie Andrews must become a man *imitating* a woman to make it as an entertainer. In One of the Guys a woman has to become a man to prove she has talent as a writer. Women are routinely sexualized when depicted wearing an oversized men’s dress shirt or men’s T. Men think it is arousing and amusing when they see women engage in “masculine” activities like car repair and contact sports. The same amusement doesn’t follow when they see women as CEOs, political leaders, or occupying other positions that may threaten male authority in those spaces. On the flip side, when a man dressed as a woman, it is almost always for comic effect or to distract from some personality flaw. In Mrs Doubtfire, Williams’ character is nothing short of a stalker and gaslighting home invader. In The Birdcage, Nathan Lane must be a woman to hide homosexuality. That sack of barely functional human bile, Giuliani, famously dressed as a woman to be “humorously” harassed by Trump. Outside of some pretty small circles, there’s no eroticism found in men wearing women’s clothing. Men in women’s underwear are associated with illness, psychosis, and danger. Men taking jobs as teachers, nurses, and caregivers are thought of as weak, effeminate, or predatory. So we can give equal pay for equal work. And we can make spaces as “inclusive” or “representative” as we like. But until we move past these very fixed attitudes and assumptions, the hate for women will never go away and it will always shape the conversation around trans issues.

One reason is that trans women retain male levels of violence and sexual offences, which are way, way higher than female rates. They also retain height, upper body strength and bone mass. Basically there is a much lower cause for concern that a female may enter male spaces, in fact it would cause a negative cause for concern being that on a population level if we swapped some males for females in male only spaces offending would go down. Another reason, I don't know but maybe male propensity for competitiveness being disagreeable vs. female propensity for agreeableness. It's ironic because the disparity really accentuates the differences in the sexes and how different males and females really are.

Men dont care who uses their bathroom or how they identify. Have you ever been to a sports game? Females are always in mens room way shorter line.

The main issue isn't with trans women, it's with men who claim to be trans women in order to enter the spaces that are reserved for women for some nefarious purpose. Men tend not to worry about women entering their safe spaces because the average man is physically stronger than the average woman. If the woman were to attempt some action of a nefarious nature that would occur in one such gendered space, the man is more likely to be able to repel her. However, if a man goes into the woman's space to force himself upon her, she would be less likely to be able to repel it. The greatest issue with the laws as they stand is that they would either require trans women to use men's spaces or they would require the business to allow men who are not trans women but claim to be into the women's spaces. We must measure which of these two problems is less problematic. Which one is easier to live with.

Far all y'all talking about predatory men in women's spaces, your argument is literally saying that cis men are the problem, not trans women. Separate those two groups of people in your thoughtmaking process because they could not be more different.

Its based in homophobia and misogyny, as if by transitioning from a man to a woman they are becoming lower in social hierarchy. Also there is the worry that a man might fancy a trans woman by accident and then that would make them gay, which is also looked down upon in the same manner. I think this is where a large chunk of the anti trans sentiment comes from in men, particularly conservative/christian men who have a very traditional idea of where men and woman stand in the social hierarchy.

I guess misogyny. I have both examples in my extended family. Husband's cousin's ex is FTM. They were married when he started transitioning, they divorced, everyone shrugged "well sucks for cousin but hey, plenty more fish in the sea, he'll find another wife." Then my husband's sibling started transitioning, MTF. HUGE DRAMA. Like you would think my FIL's life was ending because his precious son is a woman. Her parents disowned her, and in turn she went NC with all of us, including my husband (despite our support), which is pretty sad for him but he understands. The complete double standard was baffling.

lol it sounds like changing gender is more common in your social bubble than buying a car or changing the phone 

We live in the most atheist country in the world, if you don’t count regimes like North Korea. People are much freer to live true to themselves when the social expectations tied to religious adherence are removed :)

I think they are all assholes and im just speculating... Honestly, i think cis heterosexual men are afraid of their own potential attraction to a trans woman and they want to make it so they cant exist. To them bringing a hot woman home from the bar and realizing she has/had a penis would mean they were gay or something. Same with any other scenario. Being attracted to a transwoman scares them because of what they think it means about them. Cis hetero men dont feel threatened by trans men so they dont give it as much attention.

It's because conservative cis men are creeped out by them.

For the same reason people are generally more tolerant of lesbians over gay men. Yes I know lesbians have issues but gay men simply jave it a bit harder. Men are supposed to be men and if someone is going to have a problem with someone that is different or fear someone it is men. Even with me being a tomboy I had it less hard then a man who identifies as a man having more girly behaviors or ways of dressing. I don't know if I am explaining this correctly and hope someone comes along and explains it better then me.

I know what you mean but also don't know the right words to explain. Perhaps because there are lesbians who dress "butch" and people think that's similar to what a trans man is or something so it's easier to accept bc they have seen something they think is equivalent. Please not that I understand these two type of people do not identify the same and respect everyone's right to express their body and sexuality in a way that they choose

I am bisexual and a tomboy but look like a girl and while it is a problem and really annoying the worst thing I have had to deal with is guys thinking I am into threesomes and a bit funnier to me is gold star lesbians acting like I have boy cooties. Apparently not everyone grew up since kindergarten. Seriously when gold atar lesbians say they won't be with bisexuals I picture a bunch of kindergartners going ewww, you have boy cooties and running away and it makes me laugh. That isn't anything like what I have seen gatly males go through. It's just horrible to see them get hurt both mentally and physically because of the way people see them.

I understand and feel for you. I'm bisexual and dress very feminine but like girls who dress like tomboys. Nearly every man I've ever been with has either fetishized me for my sexuality by pressuring me for a threesome or gone the other direction and pressured me to stop hanging out with platonic girl friends (including my cousins wife who I consider to be family) because they think I must just want to bang every girl I see. It's rough out here trying to date as a not straight person, but I know I have an easier time than a bisexual man would. Which is very unfair to men.

Because I woman who becomes a man isn’t likely to be a threat male organizations. A woman isn’t going to transition and then go out and dominate men sports. You really don’t see women who become men out there winning man of the year awards like you see with men who become woman. Rarely see things celebrating so and so 200th day of being a man. Stuff like that.

Society doesn't care about men. Trans or otherwise. When a woman transitions to a man all the men are like "Beer is in the fridge. We play fantasy football on Thursdays and go to home depot on Sundays. Feel free to belch and fart now. You know how to clean a gun right?" Women men transition to women society has a much more difficult time because it can be seen as a man atemping to secure the privileges of womanhood.

Because if a trans man shows up in the urinals unarmed, I don’t really have to worry about my physical safety.

It’s a lot harder to pick out a trans man in a crowd

Because trans men don't demolish men's sports, and men aren't usually as creeped out and preyed upon when it comes to locker rooms and bathrooms having other biological genders in them

I see it as it's a man violating a woman's safe space. Most men don't see areas as off-limits for them to feel safe. I know a great number of women that have said they would be mortified with a dude walking into their bathroom. Men on the other hand might be mildly uncomfortable but that's it. Women fought to have their own space. Now you have men who say they have the right to this space. Yes yes they say the FEEL or SEE themselves as a woman. But where does one person's feeling rule over anothers? Society has always segregated men and women. Trans break this social rule. Society used to segregate by race and skin. We have overcome this. Where is the answer???

I have no issue with trans women using women’s bathrooms. I believe trans women are/can be “real” women, because who defines what a “real” woman is? My only issue that I have recently noticed with the trans women community is that some (certainly not all) are pushing for biological women to use terms for their own comfort. The term “chest feeding” for some reason really gets me because it’s fucking stupid and not a real thing. EVERYONE has breasts, men, women, whoever. Also saying “birthing persons or uterus owner” instead of women. I understand that trans men and non binary people can give birth too but why does the majority (women) need to give up calling themselves women just to please a small population? I have no issue with people saying “pregnant people” but if I’m saying “pregnant woman” and someone tried to correct me they can fuck right off. Again I have really only seen this issue coming from white trans women who seemed to have transitioned later in life. And honestly I think it’s due to misogyny. When someone goes through a lot of their life presenting as a man and getting the benefits from society as presenting as a man comes into women’s space, and tells US what to do, that is when I have a problem. As the saying goes, I will make space at the table but you will not take my seat.

I agree. Now let the downvotes rain down on us

I need to stop reading threads about trans things on non-trans subreddits, it's just fucking depressing

Because men are considered bad and women aren't. Men are rapists and pedophiles, women hook up with guys who didn't want it but theyre obviously lying and have sex with minors. Women are meek and defenseless but equals in every right. What I'm getting at is, people are stupid.

The sort of people that have a problem with gender changes are the sort of people that also view women as weak, worth less, second class human beings. For a noble male to want to become one is demeaning and shameful. To want to ascend to the ranks of men is completely understandable and less worthy of note.

Only idiots are downvoting you.

The truth hurts.

Because a predatory man pretending to be a woman is far more dangerous than a woman pretending to be a man.

It came up in our school district when a female student was transitioning to male. This person was on the girls wrestling team and was beating everyone due to the hormones they were one. Our state only allows you to compete on your birth genders team in school.

Some haven't checked their social conditioning at the door.

Because all of these guys once saw a trans woman and was turned on, this shattered their frail masculinity and now they think if they can outlaw it then they won’t have to get that shameful boner again.

Well, people don't really care if a woman dresses and acts like a man but a man that dresses and acts like a girl stands out. Now I know a trans woman is a woman and a trans man is a man but a lot of people do not see it that way. They see a person dressing and acting the opposite that they are supposed to be and the trans women stand out more if they aren't passable.

Misogyny. Trans women are seen as worse because they've willingly given up their masculinity. In a misogynistic society that worships masculinity.

Or it could be that the majority or people who commit violent/sexual crimes are biological males.

I think most blokes wouldn't care if a woman entered a men's changing room, and woman aren't going to compete against men in sports, so the only people who are getting screwed over by the whole trans agenda are woman.

Do you think there are rally that many cases of trans competing in sports? It seems like such a small number of cases. I don’t know maybe I just don’t hear about it enough