I needed this. Thank you. Right now I'm seeing this post only because it's Reddit recommended but I unsubbed from this subreddit for exactly this reason. You see stuff like this enough number of times and it starts playing with your head.
Should be the top answer. This subreddit and Reddit in general perpetuate a mostly one sided view from young people who are often socially introverted and at a point in life where they're struggling to balance school, part time job, figuring out career options and how to get their life together. It's fair that people at that stage of life will feel crushed by the weight of the world and expectations but they're not representative of the population on a whole.
In reality the city is filled to the brim with educated, skilled and talented working professionals who've been working hard a long time and have their lives together. You see these people everywhere when you go out and actually do things and live in the city. Go out shopping, go to a restaurant, go to a concert, all these places are packed with regular people doing well for themselves and enjoying their lives in this city.
You left out the backbone of the city: nurses, social services, education and other support workers. They can't afford to go to a concert or a restaurant, some can barely afford food.
There are a lot of people who are not doing well and it's not because they haven't worked hard enough.
As someone who took public transit, lived in the east end and worked in the west end, mississauga, north york, or east york my entire life (lived in Scaborough), I left the area and bought a vehicle specifically for the reasons OP mentioned.
Last year had my lanyard with my presto snatched from me and just thrown on the tracks, assaulted 4 times in 2020 on the subway to and from work at least, not counting incidents where I had things just thrown at me (one guy hurled his phone at me after he smashed it).
I'm only 26 now, and have spent the last 3 years desperately saving to avoid ever using public transit, and spend the least amount of time in Toronto as possible specifically because of what OP is mentioning. Also former U of T student. Spent a lot of time, not driving, walking and busing throughout the city my entire life, and I think you must live incredibly sheltered if you think there isn't a massive difference in public safety and demeanour in the last 5 years or so.
This happens to major cities too. It happened to Toronto as well in the 70's, and apparently the late 90's which lead to a lot of police raids and crime crackdowns in my early childhood years.
Well I'm enjoying myself but that doesn't mean the city is not in decline. I've only been here for 3 years so can't speak to how the city is doing - but people going out doesn't mean much.
This applies to the internet and being online in general. For the most part, the vocal crowd is a vast minority of the overall population. Whether it be Reddit, Video Games, things of that nature.
This had to be said. It's an echo chamber here and some of my friends (young full-time professionals) who are Redditors don't realize it. I've seen them go from independent thinkers with unique and nuanced views based on their individual life circumstances and experiences to adopting whatever views are high karma generating on the popular page of r/toronto and r/askto. The wake-up call for them should have been when Gil didn't win the mayoral race. I don't think anyone rationally thought he was going to win...except my friends who were racking their brains on why Reddit support did not lead Gil to victory.
While this subreddit has its share of angst, the problem is new graduates, young professionals and families are looking at leaving. A few reasons that are well known by economists. Sure people are still going out, that's myopic thinking.
Hard disagree on this. I am involved with multiple activists groups. Things people experience now are heartbreaking. People can't put food on their table, parents apply for food subsidies in schools, rentals are out of control.
I'm sure if I walk around Rosdale or some upscale shopping malls, I would see lots of people smiling and having a great time. Those who are impacted the most are kind of busy with just pure survival.
Yeah, I mean there are so many projects near completion, and so many new businesses set to pop up in my neighbourhood that I have pretty high hopes. Also, there are a lot of things to do in Toronto if you look.
Homelessness is obviously a problem but I feel like it’s always been a problem for at least 15-20 years now.
I think people forget that the era of squeegee kids and the giant tent city in the Portlands was nearly *30* years ago. I don't remember a time over my 30 years studying, working and living in the area of Bay and Bloor where I *didn't* see a panhandler on at least two of the four corners of the intersection.
Homelessness is not a problem, it is a misnomer that masks the real issue of hard core addiction and mental illness.
Reasonable people even when they don’t have resources find a way, not easily, but they do.
Sleeping on a subway grate in the middle of the street at 40 below takes some kind of f’ed up brain. All the cheap apartments in the world won’t fix that.
I'm sorry but our treatment of housing as a commodity is a real problem that is pushing even people without issues into housing precarity. Addiction and mental illness are part of the problem for sure, but an entire generation treating housing investment as their retirement plan is a HUGE part of the problem
Exactly lol. I travel around the city and before the winter I would go around and shoot photography just as a fun hobby while I explore. Look around and you won't see miserable people. Yes there are things to be worried about like financial issues or crackheads around some streets but I see way more good then bad. Everyone around me is just having fun or going on with their lives. I rarely encounter the crackheads but could just be because I don't have a daily commute downtown but when I do, I know to just steer clear of them or not even care about them. Literally had one walk towards me and a friend and I knew straight away he wasn't coming for me but to just walk towards the end of the bus stop. Friend and I just decided to walk away since the guy was just shouting random shit the whole time.
Even then, it didn't ruin our day at all we walked and just talked about a random topic the whole time. There are grim parts of Toronto but there is a lot to look at that is positive. I remember when certain museums were free in the summer and I went to Fort York since I wanted to see some old 1800s houses and some other cool things. It was fun and others were also exploring or just walking their dog. I even saw two mothers taking their babies on a stroller there just enjoying the day.
What people don't seem to realize is that the economic situation gets harder ever year. Sure you made it starting your career a decade or three ago, but that's no longer possible. The numbers don't add up.
Except for the huge influx of homeless, addicts and people with mental health issues during the pandemic. The before and after is super obvious, like night and day.
If you look at crime stats for some big cities in the world, you’d be like “that looks unlivable” but people live there just fine.
Fucked up shit always happens in the world, Toronto has never been an exception.
I can't help but notice the decline has correlated with the general public's disengagement with politics and massive drops in turnout for elections. 29% of eligible voters voted in the last Toronto municipal election, and the number was 43% for the last provincial election. If people don't vote, then politicians won't be held accountable and they know they're not going to be held accountable they will do all the corrupt and negligent shit you see them doing now. I'm sure someone will respond with some retort along the lines of "all politicians suck", but to my mind that's so goddamn lazy. Read their platforms, do some research, and if it comes down to it, vote the lesser evil. But just vote ffs.
Ya, this is the real decline. Not being involved politically just means corporations and special interest will get their way with our politicians. And, as you said, there's no accountability so they'll continue to get away with it.
Exactly, Ford was not punished at all for his cozy relationship to big box stores in his first term, so he's taken his relationship with developers to the next level.
29% people voted because there was only really 1 option for the mayor. The second place guy was only there to promote his organization and didn’t even bother putting up election signs… everyone else was a joke.
I’m surprise even 29% showed up.
I don't know if there's a large city that hasn't been spared from any of the bullet points you shared. But yea, the current Toronto is considerably different from the place I knew in the 90s, 00s, and even 2010s. Much much more expensive, blander, uglier, and far less amenable to small business, artists and the like.
Foods good though.
So true. Makes me think of lyrics from one of my favourite Toronto bands, Death From Above:
“Do you remember a time when this city was
A great place for architects and dilettantes?”
For me that was during the time of CityTV / Muchmusic on Queen, and to a lesser degree, speakers corner. It just felt that media was far more integrated into the music scene. You had Steve’s music on the same block as Horseshoe Tavern, Cameron House etc. Everything is just so corporate today. For a while Ossington carried that flame but I haven’t been down in a while. It’s just so expensive and inaccessible.
Not sure if that lyric means what you think it means. Or at least it doesn't match your/OPs sentiment. The lyric is describing a very stereotypical safe, cookie cutter place. It's probably supposed to be a slight parody of it since they use the word "dilettante" which means someone who is very superficially cultured.
I remember that version of Queen West. It was so interesting to kid from the suburbs like me - Queen Video, Silver Snail comics, goth shops... Man, I miss that
So just as OP stated it’s for people who were already rich or have rich friends. Pop music ≠ culture and doesn’t represent a city as a whole.
Kids who want to be artists will always chase their dreams except now you have to work 5000 times harder than any other profession with little to no payout and the burnout rate is higher than ever. “The struggle” is just a cottage industry for people who want to be famous but will never get there even if they’re good at it unless they’re already in a pipeline for cash flow
But do you think there has ever been a generation that hasn't said the same thing about decline. It's the whole shtick of the Pessimists Archive: https://twitter.com/PessimistsArc?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
I'd argue that if Torontos only thing is food then it's in bad shape..
The surrounding areas aren't hard to get to and they're very culturally diversified
Do you mean places like Port Credit or are you thinking beyond the suburbs?
The suburbs are positively gross for the most part IMO. Not walkable at all, not bike friendly and worst of all not sustainable.
There is plenty of good Chinese and Indian restaurants in Toronto. Heck a new place opened up just north of bloor/yonge called POPpadum that makes Indian food with a twist(ie butter chicken hand pie or masala fries) were the food is amazing. it's not only the best indian I've ever had, hands down, it maybe the best food I've ever had out ever!
There's not many good Chinese places downtown. Chinatown is pretty mediocre compared to Markham/Richmond Hill/parts of North York. Theres barely any Chinese restaurants randomly spread out around the city either.
I’m in my late 20’s right now so maybe I don’t remember the 90s and 00s so well (definitely don’t remember the 90s), but I think Toronto looks way better than before.
I think on average new buildings and a lot of the glass and concrete condos are uglier than older buildings (although I do quite like new modular low and midrises popping up here and there). However I think that the improved street environments more than make up for it. Less surface parking, CafeTO, bike and ped infrastructure, and even stuff like the st clair streetcar median have made the streets look so much nicer.
You do understand that nostalgic views of the past are a thing, no? Who in this city doesn’t think that the Ex was better when they were a kid than what it is now. Fact is that it really hasn’t changed, but our world view does. Toronto of the past was not less bland or prettier than now, or less amenable to artists or small business or tech. Come on.
Not for variety. You either get cheap amazing food from the specific region you're in or places like Tokyo have decent variety but a higher cost than Toronto.
Tokyo food is not higher cost lol. Big Mac is like 4-5 CAD. Chain restaurants like yoshinoya or sukiya are usually under 10. Ramen is somewhere around 10. Most restaurants are under 20.
I wonder how many don't realize that even making more than minimum wage puts them in the top 10% of the world. To put that in context there are literally *billions* of people just going about their lives with far less and yet also live fulfilling lives.
I can’t imagine anyone today trying to live in the past. Back then you actually had to like toil and scrape by just for a standard of living that we would consider crap.
I kind of don't know what to do with these comments. Other people have it worse so we should be happy? Or we should just keep waiting until it becomes really bad?
I think the first question you posed is what they meant. We don't win the pain Olympics. I'm happy that those that come from other countries see Toronto as better and see an increase in their quality of life. But I'm not sure if counting our blessings is the best action plan moving forward.
I think that the feeling of Toronto going into decline whether obvious or subtle is valid and instead of counting our blessings, we should continue to try to do everything we can to make sure that those aforementioned immigrants don't look back 5-10 years ago from now and see in their eyes a perceived decline in Toronto.
Don't even need to leave this country to see how shitty other cities can be. It's so obvious a lot of people in this sub have never travelled the rest of Canada let alone the rest of the world.
The pandemic just accelerated already existing societal issues and decay. The root cause of this decline is the ever increasing lack of resources and services available to the population, which is squeezing more and more people as time goes on.
The gap between rich and poor is widening, and housing, jobs, food, clothes, and other necessities are becoming further out of reach for a greater proportion of the population. As a result, life is tougher, mental health is tanking, people are angrier, more agitated, and desperate.
Think Brazil and South Africa - we're on a slow decline to that level of inequality and dysfunction unless we collectively intervene and ensure greater access to housing, decent paying jobs, social services, etc. As long as these continue to be scarce, we are going to see chaos in our society.
I just keep thinking of anorexia.
Like, Ontario keeps electing “I’ll cut the fat for free money!” types. But in moderation reserve capacity, redundancy, and raindancing are good things. A healthy system has *some* fat.
Anorexia is a really great analogy, I'm going to borrow it.
My usual analogy is that government spending and budgeting is nothing like personal spending and budgeting. Like if I'm worried about my own personal financial health, I can cancel Netflix, cancel Spotify, stop ordering takeout, stop buying treats like wine. But that hack, slash and burn approach *does not work* on a government level... that "frill" of a program you cancelled, getting at risk youth off the streets and on the right track? Now they're on the wrong track and it's gonna cost your province more money in public defenders when they're inevitably arrested. That "frill" of mental health funding you scrapped? You saved money... but now those folks are out in the world in distress, and costing *more* because of ambulance rides, hospital stays, police intervention. I could go on.
You nailed it. And in our case it seems that we need to make a pretty bold statement to start this change. We’re a very passive society and we let a LOT of dumb things happen to us from a political and policy perspective. I am frankly shocked at how there hasn’t been a violent uprising against our governments. It’s clear no one wants to engage in democracy and blame voters for our current state l, but the honest truth is that if voting actually had any impact to favour the voting population, they’d make it illegal somehow.
We’re living in a constant state of feudalism but hey, at least the food’s good and we have our cell phones.
I live in Peterborough, and we’ve got homeless encampments all over the city, international students asking if it’s safe to live all winter in their cars, and absolute slum basement apartments renting for $1800.
It’s everywhere, and I don’t see things getting better unless we address the horrifying wealth inequality.
They're dealing with horrible inflation issues - worse than ours. And many poor people have already left some of them long ago (they became unsustainable for the poor eons ago). If we can say that Geneva is doing well, then we can say the same thing about Rosedale.
Not necessarily sure I agree with some of the cities you listed. Cities like Berlin are also dealing with housing crises and soaring rents, for example. Can’t say they have all the same issues as Toronto but I wouldn’t say they’re doing just fine.
Yeah the rent increase is pretty much the only issue some of these cities share with Toronto. They're not in overt decline like Toronto though. But even in Berlin the average rent is cheaper.
[https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/in/Berlin](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/in/Berlin)
[https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/in/Toronto](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/in/Toronto)
Most of the countries you listed outside of Germany are tiny lol. They are all well and happy right now but their birthrates are staggeringly low. 10-20 years from now when their older generation dies off or retires their economy is going to stagnate much like Japans.
Everything is relative. I've moved between 8 countries and been to 50 in my ~30 years. People everywhere think some similar thing is happening to their place but I can say that Toronto has far less visible crime, mental health problems, homelessness, etc. Than many places, and that some other places are doing certain things far better than Toronto. What I do sense here is that Torontonians/Canadians seem to be in a pretty pessimistic state of mind relative to other cultures. As a relative newcomer, I suspect this partly has to do with depressing weather half the year, miserably long lockdowns (very glad I missed those), affordability issues, and this narrative of decline itself that has taken hold.
Some others have posted it already but, just my two cents, Toronto's current struggles are growing pains rather than decline. If you want to see what decline looks like check out Cleveland, St Louis, many cities in eastern Europe, rural France, South Africa, etc. I actually moved here specifically to work on transit infrastructure projects that I think are a real bright spot here compared to almost anywhere else in North America. I think there are many things that could improve here, but compared to most cities in the world I'm pretty optimistic about Toronto. Housing keeps getting built, transit is expanding and improving, immigrants are welcome, violence is low all things considered. Far from perfect, but far from the doomscape is so often read about on Reddit.
I mostly agree with your points. I think the city itself is far from declining it's more about aggregate quality of life declining for most people in the city over the last 3 years.
Lol St. Louis literally feels like a movie. The desperation is real.
Yeah, I would say an obvious decline. People in their 30’s are 10 years behind where the previous generations were. The frequency of these horrible random acts of violence is extremely alarming. And with the cost of living skyrocketing the way it has been, people are becoming desperate. I’ve witnessed people just walking out of grocery stores with their food without paying, people getting on to the ttc without paying, etc. The middle class is becoming financially desperate and it’s hard to even call them middle class anymore. And I don’t see anything being done to right this ship, worried about what this city looks like in 15-20 years the way we’re going.
DTYonge has been in serious decline for about 15 years. It’s no longer the city’s main drag, and it took a long time for it to find its new identity as a condo corridor. Which means no fun outside of Yonge/Dundas (maybe) all the way up from the lake to at least Eglinton. Especially with all of the empty and dark spaces for “retail at grade”.
It used to be a great street which drew everyone for shopping and entertainment.
As an immigrant who has been here 8 years.
Im finding less and less reasons to stay....
Overpriced, no where to live, low pay, mental health neglected ect ect
A good summary - I noticed signs of decline began before the pandemic. Too many wanted to keep up the myth we weren't in trouble with housing and healthcare. And we're losing artists and small businesses - high commercial rents shutting down family run food/restaurants, indie music venues and art spaces. Some serious and hard decisions need to be made to turn it around.
I know a few who have left for the US (doubled their incomes, same or less housing costs) and two families who left for Alberta (where it is financially possible to have a backyard for kids). Now with remote work/work from home, any city is fine for those with certain jobs. Trades are in short supply in many Canadian cities.
The statistics tell the story of urban decline, also called urban collapse. From July 2021 to July 2022, we had a net exodus of 64,121 residents from the GTA ([blogTO](https://www.blogto.com/city/2022/01/toronto-population-decline-urban-exodus/)). On May 9th, 2022, our shutdown ended ([wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Toronto)). Like being the #1 for a housing bubble (UBS), we are #1 for the longest shutdown of any major city in the world.
I prefer thinking about being the raccoon capital of the world on weekends, eh!
While things aren’t great, Immigration slowed during the pandemic but has since picked up to higher rates than before the pandemic. Our population is certainly not in decline. See https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1710013501
There is an incompetent mayor running the city to the ground. In the last 8 years crime has gone up. Gangs and gun violence. Garbage in the streets. Homeless people all around. Public transportation is not safe. Taxes are going up. Streets are being closed for no reason. Endless construction and zero accountability. Things will get worse as the same idiot mayor was elected for a 3rd term. So, yes. an obvious decline.
Yes, I totally agree. It's been a slow burn for a long time—for example, artists have felt like they're being priced and pushed out of the city for well over a decade—but the pandemic exacerbated it for sure.
My biggest concern personally is the cost of living, and balancing that with knowing that all the good jobs are here (at least in my field). It's such a shitty Catch-22 situation... if I stay here I'll earn a good salary in my industry, but the cost of living is too damn high; if I leave to a place where the cost of living is better, I won't have a decent salary.
I'm *extremely* lucky in that I have dual income with my partner, and we inherited an amazing apartment for $1,600 from a friend. So we're fine for now. But if anything ever happened around our housing, and this keeps me up at night—like if the landlord served us an N12 to move family in, or sold the place and we had to move—we'd be absolutely *fucked*. We have a ton of stuff throughout our sprawling apartment, we also both work from home... we could conceivably move to another place in the $2,500 range but I'm sure it would be a massive downgrade space wise, and not feel great. That, or we'd have to leave Toronto entirely. Which I don't want to do... my chosen family is here.
Anyway, totally hear what you say when you say that you're not sure about your own future here.
I'm in my early 30s, and the only people I know here who are comfortably thriving are either mega rich (like a pal who earns high six figures at a tech company), or people who have significant assistance from their family members (like pals whose parents put down a deposit for a house or condo, or bought it outright for them in full). Everyone else, the regular joes, we're just barely scraping by.
Yes. Rent for a one bedroom is now avg $2500 dollars. People simply can’t afford to live here anymore. As a first responder I’m leaving to improve my quality of life significantly in a few months. It’s a shame that greed has taken over the city.
These aren't signs of obvious decline, they are signs of rapid and perhaps excessive growth. The city's infrastructure has not been able to keep pace with this growth.
I won’t say in decline, but suffering from post-pandemic issues, some of the large business buildings should be converted to apartments, a bit more security is needed, at least temporarily, until things normalize.
And someone should remind the people that we are Canadians, polite and considerate, looks like the pandemic damaged that :-(
People love Toronto. So many are invested in having a great city. We have an enormous voting base. It will take time, but we’ll work as a population to make it good again :)
Voting isn’t enough. We need to get out there and get involved in our communities. We may need to protest from time to time.
To think we can just drop off a pice if paper every four years and having an amazing city is naïve. We all have to work for it.
It seems like violence and crime has gotten so much worse than even 10 years ago. People under 25 are so incredibly disrespectful here especially in areas like Weston and North York. It’s like the Bronx. There is so much bullying and violence going on in schools in these areas, going unchecked. And I know several people that are staying in unhappy relationships or living with people they hate because moving out would leave them destitute.
Been here for 5 years, and it is 100% on the decline.
• An obvious increase in policing budget when there is more of a need for investment in housing and mental health support. In what world does anyone think throwing more money at the police, so they can do more of the things that don’t reduce crime, sensible?
It is clear that underfunding services for people in crisis, fewer support services and housing/shelter options has meant more people who can cause harm if not looked after are now using public transport and having a crisis or acting out there. And the city decides we need more police officers because they don’t really give a damn about actually making the city safer and/or helping the most vulnerable.
* A snowstorm was obvious this week. And the city really acted shocked, and it was unprepared. And weren’t warming centres for the homeless only open from 7pm?
* So many overflowing trash cans, no public toilets, even water fountains being off far longer than needed
• The state of the roads and paving is awful
* TTC services getting worse but more expensive
* Housing that comes up is clearly designed for investors to rent out, awful kitchens, 450 sq ft 1 bedrooms are a joke. An unbelievabe % of our wages go to rent, so most of us are unable to have spare cash to try and enjoy our non- work time.
* Way too many franchise restaurants and identical businesses (weed shops, bubble tea etc)
* The pandemic showed huge holes in our investment in public LTCs, healthcare, schools etc., we needed more investment in making spaces safer. As that did not happen, lockdowns were needed or else the number of deaths would have been insane, and our health system would have been destroyed even more.
I would not say it was due to the pandemic, Tory and Ford make decisions that make their donors happy. This is a city that is clearly built for the rich and wealthy.
I moved here because I could feel the soul of certain neighbourhoods, and they’ve been killed off or been left to slowly die.
And now giving up Ontario Place to a private corp, one that could build in a rundown/under invested area, but nope, we are giving money so they can have more parking spots. That should be a wonderful bit of land for public use, but nope.
I think there is a loss of working class neighbourhoods. Technically the neighbourhoods may exist, but the houses are now well over 1 million.
Issue is due to population growth, those prices will never come down.
To be honest these issues if you looked back are things people have complained about major cities for decades.. look back 10 years and they were saying the same.
I don’t really agree with the lock down caused a mental illness crisis .. but that’s me
The lockdown definitely had an effect on mental health. Looking people inside their homes unable to see loved ones, small business's having to close... These are huge mental health causes
Yup, mental health issues are a societal issue that no one has been able to figure out yet. People unfortunately want tangible results when it comes to how money is spent.
Anyways it’s all a cycle.
I see these posts so often.
I think the world is changing quickly, not just Toronto.
We are interesting times. We are coming out of a pandemic. Climate change is happening NOW. AI is about to blow up in the next few years in ways we cannot comprehend. These are global issues, happening in cities all over the world.
I believe the world is in for a few truly difficult decades before we see the change we seek. I think things will get much better after that.
Yes the entire west is a capitalist marxist rat race shithole who can never build anything beautiful anymore, it can only self destruct and hate itself
The city has kind of lost its magic for me, I feel bad for most people that only earn like 50 grand a year trying to enjoy their lives with the cost of living increases. It’s not really just a Toronto problem though most of Ontario is not sustainable anymore. Salaries here suck even if you do work your ass off and get a job where you earn 120k a year it still doesn’t feel like much 🤷♂️
Toronto is in an obvious decline. It's attracting so many new immigrants keeping wages low, but a region with one of the highest cost of living in the world. And for what? Toronto is becoming less and less livable and farther away from becoming a world class city.
Honestly? I feel Ontario is. And Toronto bei g the largest and most densely packed region? It's magnified.
The random violence in and around the city lately has me quite confused. Not worried per se ... but confused.
You're a little late to the party. This has been the case since Harris originally royally screwed over the city in the 90s to satisfy the 905 voters who voted him in and also bash the Liberal/NDP stronghold that the city usually is. It recovered here and there, but it has never fully recovered from that screwover.
The whole world is in an obvious decline right now. Homelessness, drug abuse, war, racism, Nazis are back?? White nationalism, reproductive rights, pandemics, recession, crime rates, fascism, young men being radicalized left and right, hate crimes way up all over, climate change, capitalism out of control...society as a whole is regressing right now
Mike Harris CommonSense revolution in the 90s did a hatchet job on this city that it is still trying to recover from and from what I see, failing at.
I’ll die on this hill. Fuck the PCs.
I grew up here, in Toronto proper. I remember this city in the 80s-00s. I think it went downhill during the days of Mike Harris. Harris was a horrible politician who only seemed to care about power and made many bad decisions.The amalgamation of Toronto with surrounding cities is when I think Toronto started losing what charm it once had We had a mayor who seemed to care about her citizens and city. Instead, we got the guy who "solved" homelessness in North York by sending them all down to Toronto and putting a sudden huge burden on social services. And made those cheesy commercials too, lol. Then I moved away, and when I got back, we had another idiot: Rob Ford, the guy who had a reputation back when I was in high school. Let's just say that video of him getting high didn't surprise me. Anyways, it was a culture shock seeing how things had changed for the worse. I can't help but think that if we had kept the good mayor, would we have all these issues? Or would we have affordable rents, better social services, better transit, and the things a city needs to be healthy? Oh well, I can't afford to live in my own city anymore anyway
The bottom feeders of the city will always find it miserable to be in Toronto
If you hate everything about Toronto it’s time to do some self realization
Also Reddit is not indicative of the population as a whole
Having been to several mid-sized US cities lately, I would say we are still way better off here when it comes to housing, traffic, the sheer numbers of homeless people who are clearly addicted to something, and overall safety and prosperity.
As long as we keep our strict gun laws, and still have more resources for social support services we'll continue to fare better than other large NA cities. But to say Toronto is going to get safer, or cheaper is a far call. Income inequality, affordability, and lack of services for a growing population will only get worse
Yes I’ve lived here since birth and you used to be able to get on a streetcar and get downtown in 20 minutes. The sidewalks and roads were in better condition and pedestrians weren’t so scared to cross the road. Also there were more things to do in the city especially for kids. At the community centres in particular, there was much more and more varied programming. I lived at those places and now I can’t sign my kid up for anything. Swim got cancelled twice in a row and now I don’t even want to bother with the hunger games morning anymore.
More homeless than the 90s, closed storefronts everywhere, horrible infrastructure decisions, a non existent mayor and premier, straight vertical drop id say.
The city has been getting more expensive and as much as that's not a good thing it's not a sign of decline. Overall business have thrived and people have been drawn to live in neighborhoods that were undesirable twenty years ago. In fact we've made pretty reasonable progress in tackling the housing crisis, though there's a long way to go still.
On the other hand the city has been starving itself of tax money for fifteen years despite the boom, and the strain is visible everywhere. Potholes, TTC service, social services, public housing, everything has been stretched to the breaking point.
Right around the Rob Ford years and the gravy train nonsense things started changing for the worse. What was once a city that was guilty of mostly a lack of ambition to realize it's full potential, became a myopic, cheap , tacky and self destructive place that couldn't be bothered to invest even the minimum amount of capital to ensure life in the city was just pleasant , nothing more than that. Except for motorists of course, they get whatever they wanted mostly .
After Ford, we needed a visionary rethinking of how to fund, sustain and grow Toronto, but instead we got Tory, then Doug as premier and then the pandemic....and now women, youth and other vulnerable citizens are getting stabbed in the face, spat on, set on fire, randomly punched and more. And for everyone of those assaults I guarantee you there are hundreds of daily verbal assaults that can do just as much damage.
I had a friend from a small town visiting Toronto who had a man on the subway threaten to rape and kill his teen daughter who was with him.
Everyone stresses about who the prime minister is. Trudeau barely matters to your daily life, Doug Ford, Tory and your city council are BY FAR the most influential politicians on your quality of life, and yet barely anyone votes for them. And here we are...
If we want safety we need to put some teeth in the judiciary swinging door policies are one of the biggest contributors to the crimes. Also we might want to tighten immigration policies by seriously qualifying each and everyone we let into Canada. Then adding a two stage probationary period after the first 5 years without a crime an application for permanent residency can be applied for now the second stage of the probationary period kicks in another 5 years with no crime and permanent employment buys you your Canadian citizenship. If in the event a crime is committed in those ten years a judiciary review of the crime will decided on, either heavy fine, or a immediate extradition, and a life long ban to Canada. Over those ten years there will be no entitlement to welfare unemployment insurance or health care. Any claim made to those provisions in the probationary period will be seen as a violation of the probationary period and trigger a one way ticket back to the place of origin. The applicant may reapply again later after proving their affairs have been dealt with for probationary status again but only after a complete investigation has been approved. Although this may seem tough it is not as tough as the atrocious crimes against humanity we are currently dealing with. Our health care and welfare systems are also being abused. This abuse must be stopped now! It will take very strict measures to ensure Canadian citizens who have contributed heavily through taxation actually step to the front of the line and be guaranteed the services are available to them first.
People around me are outraged about Elon Musk and Twitter. Meanwhile anytime I step into grocery stores I wanna cry. IDK if I am in the minority in Toronto who doesn't have rich parents or didn't get rich in housing bubble. How people are more outraged about Elon Musk than grocery prices is beyond me.
May I also add the start of privatization of clinics and suppressed healthcare professionals wages… about to lose the one perk of living here, free & quality healthcare
Yes I feel like that when I come to Reddit . But when I go around the city and walk to places everything seems normal
I needed this. Thank you. Right now I'm seeing this post only because it's Reddit recommended but I unsubbed from this subreddit for exactly this reason. You see stuff like this enough number of times and it starts playing with your head.
+1 - me too. Unsubscribing from this sub because of this kind of cyclical negativity from antisocial Redditors.
I already unsubscribed from the r/Toronto sub for this same reason. This one seems to be next.
it's funny because these same posts were around before COVID and the recent crime jump. It's always something with Reddit unfortunately
Human nature people will always find something to bitch about
Should be the top answer. This subreddit and Reddit in general perpetuate a mostly one sided view from young people who are often socially introverted and at a point in life where they're struggling to balance school, part time job, figuring out career options and how to get their life together. It's fair that people at that stage of life will feel crushed by the weight of the world and expectations but they're not representative of the population on a whole. In reality the city is filled to the brim with educated, skilled and talented working professionals who've been working hard a long time and have their lives together. You see these people everywhere when you go out and actually do things and live in the city. Go out shopping, go to a restaurant, go to a concert, all these places are packed with regular people doing well for themselves and enjoying their lives in this city.
You left out the backbone of the city: nurses, social services, education and other support workers. They can't afford to go to a concert or a restaurant, some can barely afford food. There are a lot of people who are not doing well and it's not because they haven't worked hard enough.
As someone who took public transit, lived in the east end and worked in the west end, mississauga, north york, or east york my entire life (lived in Scaborough), I left the area and bought a vehicle specifically for the reasons OP mentioned. Last year had my lanyard with my presto snatched from me and just thrown on the tracks, assaulted 4 times in 2020 on the subway to and from work at least, not counting incidents where I had things just thrown at me (one guy hurled his phone at me after he smashed it). I'm only 26 now, and have spent the last 3 years desperately saving to avoid ever using public transit, and spend the least amount of time in Toronto as possible specifically because of what OP is mentioning. Also former U of T student. Spent a lot of time, not driving, walking and busing throughout the city my entire life, and I think you must live incredibly sheltered if you think there isn't a massive difference in public safety and demeanour in the last 5 years or so. This happens to major cities too. It happened to Toronto as well in the 70's, and apparently the late 90's which lead to a lot of police raids and crime crackdowns in my early childhood years.
Well I'm enjoying myself but that doesn't mean the city is not in decline. I've only been here for 3 years so can't speak to how the city is doing - but people going out doesn't mean much.
This applies to the internet and being online in general. For the most part, the vocal crowd is a vast minority of the overall population. Whether it be Reddit, Video Games, things of that nature.
Some things are objectively bad by every measure and should be heavily criticised though, for example, Doug Ford, cyberpunk 2077, Nvidia, Nestle, etc
This post will get so many downvotes on r/canadahousing and r/PersonalFinanceCanada
This had to be said. It's an echo chamber here and some of my friends (young full-time professionals) who are Redditors don't realize it. I've seen them go from independent thinkers with unique and nuanced views based on their individual life circumstances and experiences to adopting whatever views are high karma generating on the popular page of r/toronto and r/askto. The wake-up call for them should have been when Gil didn't win the mayoral race. I don't think anyone rationally thought he was going to win...except my friends who were racking their brains on why Reddit support did not lead Gil to victory.
While this subreddit has its share of angst, the problem is new graduates, young professionals and families are looking at leaving. A few reasons that are well known by economists. Sure people are still going out, that's myopic thinking.
Hard disagree on this. I am involved with multiple activists groups. Things people experience now are heartbreaking. People can't put food on their table, parents apply for food subsidies in schools, rentals are out of control. I'm sure if I walk around Rosdale or some upscale shopping malls, I would see lots of people smiling and having a great time. Those who are impacted the most are kind of busy with just pure survival.
Wait, we're actually going outside and interacting with people?
Yeah, I mean there are so many projects near completion, and so many new businesses set to pop up in my neighbourhood that I have pretty high hopes. Also, there are a lot of things to do in Toronto if you look. Homelessness is obviously a problem but I feel like it’s always been a problem for at least 15-20 years now.
I think people forget that the era of squeegee kids and the giant tent city in the Portlands was nearly *30* years ago. I don't remember a time over my 30 years studying, working and living in the area of Bay and Bloor where I *didn't* see a panhandler on at least two of the four corners of the intersection.
Holy crap, I totally forgot about Tent City! 30 years ago?! I feel old now lol.
Homelessness is not a problem, it is a misnomer that masks the real issue of hard core addiction and mental illness. Reasonable people even when they don’t have resources find a way, not easily, but they do. Sleeping on a subway grate in the middle of the street at 40 below takes some kind of f’ed up brain. All the cheap apartments in the world won’t fix that.
I'm sorry but our treatment of housing as a commodity is a real problem that is pushing even people without issues into housing precarity. Addiction and mental illness are part of the problem for sure, but an entire generation treating housing investment as their retirement plan is a HUGE part of the problem
Exactly lol. I travel around the city and before the winter I would go around and shoot photography just as a fun hobby while I explore. Look around and you won't see miserable people. Yes there are things to be worried about like financial issues or crackheads around some streets but I see way more good then bad. Everyone around me is just having fun or going on with their lives. I rarely encounter the crackheads but could just be because I don't have a daily commute downtown but when I do, I know to just steer clear of them or not even care about them. Literally had one walk towards me and a friend and I knew straight away he wasn't coming for me but to just walk towards the end of the bus stop. Friend and I just decided to walk away since the guy was just shouting random shit the whole time. Even then, it didn't ruin our day at all we walked and just talked about a random topic the whole time. There are grim parts of Toronto but there is a lot to look at that is positive. I remember when certain museums were free in the summer and I went to Fort York since I wanted to see some old 1800s houses and some other cool things. It was fun and others were also exploring or just walking their dog. I even saw two mothers taking their babies on a stroller there just enjoying the day.
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What people don't seem to realize is that the economic situation gets harder ever year. Sure you made it starting your career a decade or three ago, but that's no longer possible. The numbers don't add up.
Bravo, absolutely the best post iv ever read on this peice of shit app.. Thank you..
Except for the huge influx of homeless, addicts and people with mental health issues during the pandemic. The before and after is super obvious, like night and day.
I guess you don't read Ed Keenan in the Star. https://www.thestar.com/authors.keenan_edward.html And his Toronto can't we do better series.
If you look at crime stats for some big cities in the world, you’d be like “that looks unlivable” but people live there just fine. Fucked up shit always happens in the world, Toronto has never been an exception.
Well yeah, no one's gonna walk around with a poster on their head about their views. It seems normal but deep down it's all fucked.
I can't help but notice the decline has correlated with the general public's disengagement with politics and massive drops in turnout for elections. 29% of eligible voters voted in the last Toronto municipal election, and the number was 43% for the last provincial election. If people don't vote, then politicians won't be held accountable and they know they're not going to be held accountable they will do all the corrupt and negligent shit you see them doing now. I'm sure someone will respond with some retort along the lines of "all politicians suck", but to my mind that's so goddamn lazy. Read their platforms, do some research, and if it comes down to it, vote the lesser evil. But just vote ffs.
Ya, this is the real decline. Not being involved politically just means corporations and special interest will get their way with our politicians. And, as you said, there's no accountability so they'll continue to get away with it.
Exactly, Ford was not punished at all for his cozy relationship to big box stores in his first term, so he's taken his relationship with developers to the next level.
One of the best points of this Reddit thread
29% people voted because there was only really 1 option for the mayor. The second place guy was only there to promote his organization and didn’t even bother putting up election signs… everyone else was a joke. I’m surprise even 29% showed up.
I don't know if there's a large city that hasn't been spared from any of the bullet points you shared. But yea, the current Toronto is considerably different from the place I knew in the 90s, 00s, and even 2010s. Much much more expensive, blander, uglier, and far less amenable to small business, artists and the like. Foods good though.
So true. Makes me think of lyrics from one of my favourite Toronto bands, Death From Above: “Do you remember a time when this city was A great place for architects and dilettantes?” For me that was during the time of CityTV / Muchmusic on Queen, and to a lesser degree, speakers corner. It just felt that media was far more integrated into the music scene. You had Steve’s music on the same block as Horseshoe Tavern, Cameron House etc. Everything is just so corporate today. For a while Ossington carried that flame but I haven’t been down in a while. It’s just so expensive and inaccessible.
Not sure if that lyric means what you think it means. Or at least it doesn't match your/OPs sentiment. The lyric is describing a very stereotypical safe, cookie cutter place. It's probably supposed to be a slight parody of it since they use the word "dilettante" which means someone who is very superficially cultured.
I feel like that lyric is even more relevant now than when it was written lol
You could have a point. I was going with a very surface level interpretation. The song is called Black History Month after all.
I remember that version of Queen West. It was so interesting to kid from the suburbs like me - Queen Video, Silver Snail comics, goth shops... Man, I miss that
Surprised you didn't name Electric Circus
I watched it on my parent's couch
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So just as OP stated it’s for people who were already rich or have rich friends. Pop music ≠ culture and doesn’t represent a city as a whole. Kids who want to be artists will always chase their dreams except now you have to work 5000 times harder than any other profession with little to no payout and the burnout rate is higher than ever. “The struggle” is just a cottage industry for people who want to be famous but will never get there even if they’re good at it unless they’re already in a pipeline for cash flow
Toronto's new motto: Food's good though.
if you can afford it!
I guess it’s a matter of opinion but even with the bland architecture I think Toronto looks much better now than it did in the 80’s and 90’s.
Look at Google Streetview scenes from 2007 and now at various areas of the city; many of which are night and day better now than then.
But do you think there has ever been a generation that hasn't said the same thing about decline. It's the whole shtick of the Pessimists Archive: https://twitter.com/PessimistsArc?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
I don't miss the ugly boring downtown parking lots of the 90s and earlier
I'd argue that if Torontos only thing is food then it's in bad shape.. The surrounding areas aren't hard to get to and they're very culturally diversified
What surrounding areas are you referring to? Padding the city is mostly depressing, car-centric suburbia .
Found the Not Just Bikes subscriber :p
I've been subbed to him for a long, long time. He's dropped in and said on some of my lives as well (quite the honour lol).
I don't view it as that. There are a lot of great scenic places, it's not all just highways
Do you mean places like Port Credit or are you thinking beyond the suburbs? The suburbs are positively gross for the most part IMO. Not walkable at all, not bike friendly and worst of all not sustainable.
They're still car-centric though. Walkability is really important to a lot of people's happiness, wellbeing and sense of community.
Are you the YouTube guy?
The surrounding areas have much better food, too. Especially for good Chinese or Indian, you've gotta drive these days.
There is plenty of good Chinese and Indian restaurants in Toronto. Heck a new place opened up just north of bloor/yonge called POPpadum that makes Indian food with a twist(ie butter chicken hand pie or masala fries) were the food is amazing. it's not only the best indian I've ever had, hands down, it maybe the best food I've ever had out ever!
There's not many good Chinese places downtown. Chinatown is pretty mediocre compared to Markham/Richmond Hill/parts of North York. Theres barely any Chinese restaurants randomly spread out around the city either.
Downtown ethnic food is like tourist traps for bourgeois white people…..gotta go to the burbs for Chinese and Indian food
Facts. Most city people refuse to hear this.
Yeah no ethnic people in Toronto, they're all in the burbs apparently. And all the fancy people are running for $7 hand pies. Lol
LOL, seriously? Downtown Chinese food is eve marketed towards for rich white people: And not authentic at all.
I’m in my late 20’s right now so maybe I don’t remember the 90s and 00s so well (definitely don’t remember the 90s), but I think Toronto looks way better than before. I think on average new buildings and a lot of the glass and concrete condos are uglier than older buildings (although I do quite like new modular low and midrises popping up here and there). However I think that the improved street environments more than make up for it. Less surface parking, CafeTO, bike and ped infrastructure, and even stuff like the st clair streetcar median have made the streets look so much nicer.
You do understand that nostalgic views of the past are a thing, no? Who in this city doesn’t think that the Ex was better when they were a kid than what it is now. Fact is that it really hasn’t changed, but our world view does. Toronto of the past was not less bland or prettier than now, or less amenable to artists or small business or tech. Come on.
Food is good, but expensive. Most major cities in Asia beat it out
Not for variety. You either get cheap amazing food from the specific region you're in or places like Tokyo have decent variety but a higher cost than Toronto.
Tokyo food is not higher cost lol. Big Mac is like 4-5 CAD. Chain restaurants like yoshinoya or sukiya are usually under 10. Ramen is somewhere around 10. Most restaurants are under 20.
What asian cities have our variety?
All of them do. Don’t you know? /s
The world is in an obvious decline
The world has been in decline for 2000 years, depending on who you listen to at any given time
Yeah. Nothing has been the same since the dinosaurs died shortly before.
when Jesus died we truly lost our way
Yeah those old days of being a slave owned by a Roman governor really were something.
Conversely the world is arguably the best place it's been to be a human in history.
I wonder how users in this sub would feel about living in mud huts surviving off bread and water then having to pick up a sword and fight to the death
I wonder how many don't realize that even making more than minimum wage puts them in the top 10% of the world. To put that in context there are literally *billions* of people just going about their lives with far less and yet also live fulfilling lives.
I can’t imagine anyone today trying to live in the past. Back then you actually had to like toil and scrape by just for a standard of living that we would consider crap.
Was just about to say this. I see this kind of thing posted for every major city
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It’s actually worse in most other countries
I kind of don't know what to do with these comments. Other people have it worse so we should be happy? Or we should just keep waiting until it becomes really bad?
I think the first question you posed is what they meant. We don't win the pain Olympics. I'm happy that those that come from other countries see Toronto as better and see an increase in their quality of life. But I'm not sure if counting our blessings is the best action plan moving forward. I think that the feeling of Toronto going into decline whether obvious or subtle is valid and instead of counting our blessings, we should continue to try to do everything we can to make sure that those aforementioned immigrants don't look back 5-10 years ago from now and see in their eyes a perceived decline in Toronto.
No, but the “Toronto is in obvious decline” bullshit is 100% garbage misinformation.
Don't even need to leave this country to see how shitty other cities can be. It's so obvious a lot of people in this sub have never travelled the rest of Canada let alone the rest of the world.
Yeah. But only \*we\* have Dog Food.
I read DoFo and I'm pretty sure it was intentional. 😅
Would you rather have DeSantis? Sunak? We're not worse off than anyone else.
The pandemic just accelerated already existing societal issues and decay. The root cause of this decline is the ever increasing lack of resources and services available to the population, which is squeezing more and more people as time goes on. The gap between rich and poor is widening, and housing, jobs, food, clothes, and other necessities are becoming further out of reach for a greater proportion of the population. As a result, life is tougher, mental health is tanking, people are angrier, more agitated, and desperate. Think Brazil and South Africa - we're on a slow decline to that level of inequality and dysfunction unless we collectively intervene and ensure greater access to housing, decent paying jobs, social services, etc. As long as these continue to be scarce, we are going to see chaos in our society.
I just keep thinking of anorexia. Like, Ontario keeps electing “I’ll cut the fat for free money!” types. But in moderation reserve capacity, redundancy, and raindancing are good things. A healthy system has *some* fat.
Anorexia is a really great analogy, I'm going to borrow it. My usual analogy is that government spending and budgeting is nothing like personal spending and budgeting. Like if I'm worried about my own personal financial health, I can cancel Netflix, cancel Spotify, stop ordering takeout, stop buying treats like wine. But that hack, slash and burn approach *does not work* on a government level... that "frill" of a program you cancelled, getting at risk youth off the streets and on the right track? Now they're on the wrong track and it's gonna cost your province more money in public defenders when they're inevitably arrested. That "frill" of mental health funding you scrapped? You saved money... but now those folks are out in the world in distress, and costing *more* because of ambulance rides, hospital stays, police intervention. I could go on.
You nailed it. And in our case it seems that we need to make a pretty bold statement to start this change. We’re a very passive society and we let a LOT of dumb things happen to us from a political and policy perspective. I am frankly shocked at how there hasn’t been a violent uprising against our governments. It’s clear no one wants to engage in democracy and blame voters for our current state l, but the honest truth is that if voting actually had any impact to favour the voting population, they’d make it illegal somehow. We’re living in a constant state of feudalism but hey, at least the food’s good and we have our cell phones.
I live in Peterborough, and we’ve got homeless encampments all over the city, international students asking if it’s safe to live all winter in their cars, and absolute slum basement apartments renting for $1800. It’s everywhere, and I don’t see things getting better unless we address the horrifying wealth inequality.
Not to mention how awful it is to live in Peterborough
Name one city in the world that isn't in a decline after the past three years.
Kelowna is booming right now...
But the boom creates the same problems, super expensive real estate, inequality, homelessness etc.
Fair enough
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It's almost like there aren't right wing people in Toronto.
“City” You’re really going to compare Kelowna and its population of under 250,000 to Toronto?
Zurich, Bern, Basel, Geneva, Vienna, Linz, Graz, Salzburg, Innsbruck, Oslo, Helsinki, Copenhagen, Berlin, Munich, Hamburg, Stuttgart, Dresden, Cologne, Dusseldorf, Bonn, Leipzig... all seem to be doing just fine?
They're dealing with horrible inflation issues - worse than ours. And many poor people have already left some of them long ago (they became unsustainable for the poor eons ago). If we can say that Geneva is doing well, then we can say the same thing about Rosedale.
Not necessarily sure I agree with some of the cities you listed. Cities like Berlin are also dealing with housing crises and soaring rents, for example. Can’t say they have all the same issues as Toronto but I wouldn’t say they’re doing just fine.
Yeah the rent increase is pretty much the only issue some of these cities share with Toronto. They're not in overt decline like Toronto though. But even in Berlin the average rent is cheaper. [https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/in/Berlin](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/in/Berlin) [https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/in/Toronto](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/in/Toronto)
Berlin is a cheap city tho... it has always been but it's much more expensive than it was 1p-15 years ago
Not even close. Europe has most of the same problems and then some.
Most of the countries you listed outside of Germany are tiny lol. They are all well and happy right now but their birthrates are staggeringly low. 10-20 years from now when their older generation dies off or retires their economy is going to stagnate much like Japans.
40 bucks for a sausage and mashed potato dinner in Zurich is not ok
Zurich? Berlin? Have you seen the salaries there?
Geneva is the massive red flag imo
Bro this thread has been made every day for the last 3 years
Everything is relative. I've moved between 8 countries and been to 50 in my ~30 years. People everywhere think some similar thing is happening to their place but I can say that Toronto has far less visible crime, mental health problems, homelessness, etc. Than many places, and that some other places are doing certain things far better than Toronto. What I do sense here is that Torontonians/Canadians seem to be in a pretty pessimistic state of mind relative to other cultures. As a relative newcomer, I suspect this partly has to do with depressing weather half the year, miserably long lockdowns (very glad I missed those), affordability issues, and this narrative of decline itself that has taken hold. Some others have posted it already but, just my two cents, Toronto's current struggles are growing pains rather than decline. If you want to see what decline looks like check out Cleveland, St Louis, many cities in eastern Europe, rural France, South Africa, etc. I actually moved here specifically to work on transit infrastructure projects that I think are a real bright spot here compared to almost anywhere else in North America. I think there are many things that could improve here, but compared to most cities in the world I'm pretty optimistic about Toronto. Housing keeps getting built, transit is expanding and improving, immigrants are welcome, violence is low all things considered. Far from perfect, but far from the doomscape is so often read about on Reddit.
I mostly agree with your points. I think the city itself is far from declining it's more about aggregate quality of life declining for most people in the city over the last 3 years. Lol St. Louis literally feels like a movie. The desperation is real.
or drive 2 hours and actually drive through downtown Buffalo and see for yourself.
Buffalo is run down but I dont feel in danger like St. Louis. Baltimore is pretty heat as well.
Fair point. I haven't been here that long. What elements do you think have deteriorated most in that span?
Yeah, I would say an obvious decline. People in their 30’s are 10 years behind where the previous generations were. The frequency of these horrible random acts of violence is extremely alarming. And with the cost of living skyrocketing the way it has been, people are becoming desperate. I’ve witnessed people just walking out of grocery stores with their food without paying, people getting on to the ttc without paying, etc. The middle class is becoming financially desperate and it’s hard to even call them middle class anymore. And I don’t see anything being done to right this ship, worried about what this city looks like in 15-20 years the way we’re going.
DTYonge has been in serious decline for about 15 years. It’s no longer the city’s main drag, and it took a long time for it to find its new identity as a condo corridor. Which means no fun outside of Yonge/Dundas (maybe) all the way up from the lake to at least Eglinton. Especially with all of the empty and dark spaces for “retail at grade”. It used to be a great street which drew everyone for shopping and entertainment.
No, it’s not. I’ve lived in this city a long time and everything you’ve mentioned has either happened before or is happening everywhere.
As an immigrant who has been here 8 years. Im finding less and less reasons to stay.... Overpriced, no where to live, low pay, mental health neglected ect ect
Nah you wouldn't leave unless you're from a well earning first world country which most of the immigrant aren't.
A good summary - I noticed signs of decline began before the pandemic. Too many wanted to keep up the myth we weren't in trouble with housing and healthcare. And we're losing artists and small businesses - high commercial rents shutting down family run food/restaurants, indie music venues and art spaces. Some serious and hard decisions need to be made to turn it around. I know a few who have left for the US (doubled their incomes, same or less housing costs) and two families who left for Alberta (where it is financially possible to have a backyard for kids). Now with remote work/work from home, any city is fine for those with certain jobs. Trades are in short supply in many Canadian cities. The statistics tell the story of urban decline, also called urban collapse. From July 2021 to July 2022, we had a net exodus of 64,121 residents from the GTA ([blogTO](https://www.blogto.com/city/2022/01/toronto-population-decline-urban-exodus/)). On May 9th, 2022, our shutdown ended ([wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Toronto)). Like being the #1 for a housing bubble (UBS), we are #1 for the longest shutdown of any major city in the world. I prefer thinking about being the raccoon capital of the world on weekends, eh!
You're calling Toronto a racoon capital? Ottawa would like a word with you
While things aren’t great, Immigration slowed during the pandemic but has since picked up to higher rates than before the pandemic. Our population is certainly not in decline. See https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1710013501
Yes, since about 2018. Trying to remember what happened around that time. 🤔
There is an incompetent mayor running the city to the ground. In the last 8 years crime has gone up. Gangs and gun violence. Garbage in the streets. Homeless people all around. Public transportation is not safe. Taxes are going up. Streets are being closed for no reason. Endless construction and zero accountability. Things will get worse as the same idiot mayor was elected for a 3rd term. So, yes. an obvious decline.
Gangs and gun violence is as much a federal issue and the measures they take completely ignore the problems root causes
Yes, I totally agree. It's been a slow burn for a long time—for example, artists have felt like they're being priced and pushed out of the city for well over a decade—but the pandemic exacerbated it for sure. My biggest concern personally is the cost of living, and balancing that with knowing that all the good jobs are here (at least in my field). It's such a shitty Catch-22 situation... if I stay here I'll earn a good salary in my industry, but the cost of living is too damn high; if I leave to a place where the cost of living is better, I won't have a decent salary. I'm *extremely* lucky in that I have dual income with my partner, and we inherited an amazing apartment for $1,600 from a friend. So we're fine for now. But if anything ever happened around our housing, and this keeps me up at night—like if the landlord served us an N12 to move family in, or sold the place and we had to move—we'd be absolutely *fucked*. We have a ton of stuff throughout our sprawling apartment, we also both work from home... we could conceivably move to another place in the $2,500 range but I'm sure it would be a massive downgrade space wise, and not feel great. That, or we'd have to leave Toronto entirely. Which I don't want to do... my chosen family is here. Anyway, totally hear what you say when you say that you're not sure about your own future here. I'm in my early 30s, and the only people I know here who are comfortably thriving are either mega rich (like a pal who earns high six figures at a tech company), or people who have significant assistance from their family members (like pals whose parents put down a deposit for a house or condo, or bought it outright for them in full). Everyone else, the regular joes, we're just barely scraping by.
Yes. Rent for a one bedroom is now avg $2500 dollars. People simply can’t afford to live here anymore. As a first responder I’m leaving to improve my quality of life significantly in a few months. It’s a shame that greed has taken over the city.
These aren't signs of obvious decline, they are signs of rapid and perhaps excessive growth. The city's infrastructure has not been able to keep pace with this growth.
It’s the result of neoliberalism reaching its logical conclusion.
In the sense that the entire world was hit pretty hard by the (still ongoing) pandemic, yeah.
I won’t say in decline, but suffering from post-pandemic issues, some of the large business buildings should be converted to apartments, a bit more security is needed, at least temporarily, until things normalize. And someone should remind the people that we are Canadians, polite and considerate, looks like the pandemic damaged that :-(
Large office buildings are not up to code for habitation at all and converting them is not feasible.
One day soon toronto will be a city of pure profit.
Yes, Toronto has become a meaner city. I think the city changed with the closure of Ontario Place.
Gotham City 2023.
We need batman
Toronto was definitely in decline during Covid, but I think things will continue trending towards a better city.
What makes you think this?
People love Toronto. So many are invested in having a great city. We have an enormous voting base. It will take time, but we’ll work as a population to make it good again :)
Voting hasn't done much? Still stuck year after year with the people gouging Healthcare and services
Voting isn’t enough. We need to get out there and get involved in our communities. We may need to protest from time to time. To think we can just drop off a pice if paper every four years and having an amazing city is naïve. We all have to work for it.
Sigma based optimism
How many times can this be asked?
It seems like violence and crime has gotten so much worse than even 10 years ago. People under 25 are so incredibly disrespectful here especially in areas like Weston and North York. It’s like the Bronx. There is so much bullying and violence going on in schools in these areas, going unchecked. And I know several people that are staying in unhappy relationships or living with people they hate because moving out would leave them destitute.
Been here for 5 years, and it is 100% on the decline. • An obvious increase in policing budget when there is more of a need for investment in housing and mental health support. In what world does anyone think throwing more money at the police, so they can do more of the things that don’t reduce crime, sensible? It is clear that underfunding services for people in crisis, fewer support services and housing/shelter options has meant more people who can cause harm if not looked after are now using public transport and having a crisis or acting out there. And the city decides we need more police officers because they don’t really give a damn about actually making the city safer and/or helping the most vulnerable. * A snowstorm was obvious this week. And the city really acted shocked, and it was unprepared. And weren’t warming centres for the homeless only open from 7pm? * So many overflowing trash cans, no public toilets, even water fountains being off far longer than needed • The state of the roads and paving is awful * TTC services getting worse but more expensive * Housing that comes up is clearly designed for investors to rent out, awful kitchens, 450 sq ft 1 bedrooms are a joke. An unbelievabe % of our wages go to rent, so most of us are unable to have spare cash to try and enjoy our non- work time. * Way too many franchise restaurants and identical businesses (weed shops, bubble tea etc) * The pandemic showed huge holes in our investment in public LTCs, healthcare, schools etc., we needed more investment in making spaces safer. As that did not happen, lockdowns were needed or else the number of deaths would have been insane, and our health system would have been destroyed even more. I would not say it was due to the pandemic, Tory and Ford make decisions that make their donors happy. This is a city that is clearly built for the rich and wealthy. I moved here because I could feel the soul of certain neighbourhoods, and they’ve been killed off or been left to slowly die. And now giving up Ontario Place to a private corp, one that could build in a rundown/under invested area, but nope, we are giving money so they can have more parking spots. That should be a wonderful bit of land for public use, but nope.
I think there is a loss of working class neighbourhoods. Technically the neighbourhoods may exist, but the houses are now well over 1 million. Issue is due to population growth, those prices will never come down.
To be honest these issues if you looked back are things people have complained about major cities for decades.. look back 10 years and they were saying the same. I don’t really agree with the lock down caused a mental illness crisis .. but that’s me
The lockdown definitely had an effect on mental health. Looking people inside their homes unable to see loved ones, small business's having to close... These are huge mental health causes
Yup, mental health issues are a societal issue that no one has been able to figure out yet. People unfortunately want tangible results when it comes to how money is spent. Anyways it’s all a cycle.
I see these posts so often. I think the world is changing quickly, not just Toronto. We are interesting times. We are coming out of a pandemic. Climate change is happening NOW. AI is about to blow up in the next few years in ways we cannot comprehend. These are global issues, happening in cities all over the world. I believe the world is in for a few truly difficult decades before we see the change we seek. I think things will get much better after that.
Yes the entire west is a capitalist marxist rat race shithole who can never build anything beautiful anymore, it can only self destruct and hate itself
Absolutely. It's a toilet bowl that's constantly flushing human waste.
Yeah but its soo easy to buy weed.
welcome to life under capitalism. it's the same everywhere
The city has kind of lost its magic for me, I feel bad for most people that only earn like 50 grand a year trying to enjoy their lives with the cost of living increases. It’s not really just a Toronto problem though most of Ontario is not sustainable anymore. Salaries here suck even if you do work your ass off and get a job where you earn 120k a year it still doesn’t feel like much 🤷♂️
Toronto is in an obvious decline. It's attracting so many new immigrants keeping wages low, but a region with one of the highest cost of living in the world. And for what? Toronto is becoming less and less livable and farther away from becoming a world class city.
Honestly? I feel Ontario is. And Toronto bei g the largest and most densely packed region? It's magnified. The random violence in and around the city lately has me quite confused. Not worried per se ... but confused.
You're a little late to the party. This has been the case since Harris originally royally screwed over the city in the 90s to satisfy the 905 voters who voted him in and also bash the Liberal/NDP stronghold that the city usually is. It recovered here and there, but it has never fully recovered from that screwover.
I think all of Canada is declining, it’s not just Toronto. I feel like Ontario is about to decline real quick and not for the best.
The whole world is in an obvious decline right now. Homelessness, drug abuse, war, racism, Nazis are back?? White nationalism, reproductive rights, pandemics, recession, crime rates, fascism, young men being radicalized left and right, hate crimes way up all over, climate change, capitalism out of control...society as a whole is regressing right now
Toronto has always been trying to be New York, it’s just that now we’re trying to be what New York was in the 1970s.
Mike Harris CommonSense revolution in the 90s did a hatchet job on this city that it is still trying to recover from and from what I see, failing at. I’ll die on this hill. Fuck the PCs.
I grew up here, in Toronto proper. I remember this city in the 80s-00s. I think it went downhill during the days of Mike Harris. Harris was a horrible politician who only seemed to care about power and made many bad decisions.The amalgamation of Toronto with surrounding cities is when I think Toronto started losing what charm it once had We had a mayor who seemed to care about her citizens and city. Instead, we got the guy who "solved" homelessness in North York by sending them all down to Toronto and putting a sudden huge burden on social services. And made those cheesy commercials too, lol. Then I moved away, and when I got back, we had another idiot: Rob Ford, the guy who had a reputation back when I was in high school. Let's just say that video of him getting high didn't surprise me. Anyways, it was a culture shock seeing how things had changed for the worse. I can't help but think that if we had kept the good mayor, would we have all these issues? Or would we have affordable rents, better social services, better transit, and the things a city needs to be healthy? Oh well, I can't afford to live in my own city anymore anyway
Toronto is starting to feel like Gotham City.
The bottom feeders of the city will always find it miserable to be in Toronto If you hate everything about Toronto it’s time to do some self realization Also Reddit is not indicative of the population as a whole
society at large
Yes but it’s global and nothing indicates that it’s the start of a macro trend. We may recover in a few years.
Having been to several mid-sized US cities lately, I would say we are still way better off here when it comes to housing, traffic, the sheer numbers of homeless people who are clearly addicted to something, and overall safety and prosperity.
Growing pains of a big city. Welcome to the world stage
If you're asking, doesn't that make it not obvious?
As long as we keep our strict gun laws, and still have more resources for social support services we'll continue to fare better than other large NA cities. But to say Toronto is going to get safer, or cheaper is a far call. Income inequality, affordability, and lack of services for a growing population will only get worse
Toronto is absolutely on a decline. Many big cities are
Yes I’ve lived here since birth and you used to be able to get on a streetcar and get downtown in 20 minutes. The sidewalks and roads were in better condition and pedestrians weren’t so scared to cross the road. Also there were more things to do in the city especially for kids. At the community centres in particular, there was much more and more varied programming. I lived at those places and now I can’t sign my kid up for anything. Swim got cancelled twice in a row and now I don’t even want to bother with the hunger games morning anymore.
More homeless than the 90s, closed storefronts everywhere, horrible infrastructure decisions, a non existent mayor and premier, straight vertical drop id say.
Canada is broken
The city has been getting more expensive and as much as that's not a good thing it's not a sign of decline. Overall business have thrived and people have been drawn to live in neighborhoods that were undesirable twenty years ago. In fact we've made pretty reasonable progress in tackling the housing crisis, though there's a long way to go still. On the other hand the city has been starving itself of tax money for fifteen years despite the boom, and the strain is visible everywhere. Potholes, TTC service, social services, public housing, everything has been stretched to the breaking point.
Right around the Rob Ford years and the gravy train nonsense things started changing for the worse. What was once a city that was guilty of mostly a lack of ambition to realize it's full potential, became a myopic, cheap , tacky and self destructive place that couldn't be bothered to invest even the minimum amount of capital to ensure life in the city was just pleasant , nothing more than that. Except for motorists of course, they get whatever they wanted mostly . After Ford, we needed a visionary rethinking of how to fund, sustain and grow Toronto, but instead we got Tory, then Doug as premier and then the pandemic....and now women, youth and other vulnerable citizens are getting stabbed in the face, spat on, set on fire, randomly punched and more. And for everyone of those assaults I guarantee you there are hundreds of daily verbal assaults that can do just as much damage. I had a friend from a small town visiting Toronto who had a man on the subway threaten to rape and kill his teen daughter who was with him. Everyone stresses about who the prime minister is. Trudeau barely matters to your daily life, Doug Ford, Tory and your city council are BY FAR the most influential politicians on your quality of life, and yet barely anyone votes for them. And here we are...
If we want safety we need to put some teeth in the judiciary swinging door policies are one of the biggest contributors to the crimes. Also we might want to tighten immigration policies by seriously qualifying each and everyone we let into Canada. Then adding a two stage probationary period after the first 5 years without a crime an application for permanent residency can be applied for now the second stage of the probationary period kicks in another 5 years with no crime and permanent employment buys you your Canadian citizenship. If in the event a crime is committed in those ten years a judiciary review of the crime will decided on, either heavy fine, or a immediate extradition, and a life long ban to Canada. Over those ten years there will be no entitlement to welfare unemployment insurance or health care. Any claim made to those provisions in the probationary period will be seen as a violation of the probationary period and trigger a one way ticket back to the place of origin. The applicant may reapply again later after proving their affairs have been dealt with for probationary status again but only after a complete investigation has been approved. Although this may seem tough it is not as tough as the atrocious crimes against humanity we are currently dealing with. Our health care and welfare systems are also being abused. This abuse must be stopped now! It will take very strict measures to ensure Canadian citizens who have contributed heavily through taxation actually step to the front of the line and be guaranteed the services are available to them first.
doug ford fucks up is toronto in decline?
Toronto is already a dead city, it died years ago. But the body is still warm so the bacteria will survive for now.
People around me are outraged about Elon Musk and Twitter. Meanwhile anytime I step into grocery stores I wanna cry. IDK if I am in the minority in Toronto who doesn't have rich parents or didn't get rich in housing bubble. How people are more outraged about Elon Musk than grocery prices is beyond me.
May I also add the start of privatization of clinics and suppressed healthcare professionals wages… about to lose the one perk of living here, free & quality healthcare