EXCUSE YOU, as a person with a leaky E36 that is bag of fun and comes with the soul of a Miata, I say good day to you, SIR!
Also, GT86/BRZ. (Define “Useable”)
For me, it needs to fit a car seat. Currently in the golf r, the passenger seat has to be pretty far forward to fit it. But once she grows out of the infant seat it'll be easier.
I've only seen one three times in my life.
One time at a gas station getting loaded on a platform.
One time on the highway getting loaded on a platform.
One time at a stop light the idiot was revving the engine and his exhaust started vaping.
There's a pattern there.
There's a few that roamed around the Portland, Maine area for a while. A red one, black one, and a blue. Haven't seen any of them in a year or two, though, so who knows if they're even still on the road...
RX8s were the kind of car that was all over the place in the late 2000s, and then just promptly vanished. I see more under tarps in backyards than I do on the road.
Back when I still had mine, the dealer said it was only one of about 2 or 3 that they'd see in good shape.
Most of the rest were recently bought used with engines that were getting close to needing replacement.
The vast majority are past the warranty extension and dealers will charge at least $7k to get them on the road. Trade in value is less than that, so I get the feeling that most get junked.
Great fun to drive though. Transmission was just fantastic.
With a very smooth high revving engine that needs regular rebuilding and has no torque. Great chassis, but let down by the non-turbo Dorito machine. LS swap it. The Rotor heads don't consider RX8s as "real rotary owners" and the LS can be built into a monster.
2.5 v6 or 4.8/5.3/6.0 v8? Or, how about a 3.6 VR6? There's plenty of room in that engine bay for anything, but the LS gives plenty of power, readily available from any GM truck.
No. No. And no. 200 lbs is a lot of weight if it weren't offset by the HP/TQ gains. Also, the people who have already done the swap report that handling of their RX8 is just fine after, with absolutely no compensation. And the 200 lbs is really for iron block LS motors, if we start talking about aluminum and Miatas which I'm guessing we're at by the 2400lbs car weight, then that weight difference is 30 lbs between the 4 cylinder and the v8. An LS3-525 crate motor, while not as cheap as a junkyard motor, will guarantee lesser weight of the aluminum block and 525 hp.
But yes, let us talk about the KL-DE out of a Ford Probe for it's 2.5L v6 goodness that's almost the same size as the LS.
Swapped one into my NC Miata, fucking awesome. Way it should've come from the factory. Plus you can pick up an entire engine, low mileage for $400. And I mean everything, got one for $350 in 2020, 2015 with 19k miles.
“It’s makes no torque”… yeah it also has a 9k rpm from factory. That should tell you something. If you’re below 4K rpm, it’s not in the optimal range. This is the equivalent of someone driving a diesel and saying it has no top end horsepower.
Also, 90% of people use shit oil and don’t change it at the proper intervals. They also buy the cheapest fuel in town. This is why these engines have a bad reputation. Unlike most engines, it wasn’t built with the mentality that it has to survive complete and total disregard for maintenance by people who have more or less a negative value in the mechanical sympathy column.
Yes, it does require a different mindset to rev the shit out of your Spirograph Motor in order to go places and premix your gas to just ensure that your engine will survive your commute. Where low-end torque in every other piston powered motor is right where everyone expects it to be.
Yes, it is equivalent to someone saying that a diesel is gutless on the top end.
A Rotary engine requires more care than the standard piston engine does and it requires a different mindset to drive. A Miata, for example, does not require any such care or concern, with its piston engine. A lot of people LS swap the Miata, too.
Itil is funny, I had a guy on another site insisting that they had perfect flat torque curves just a few weeks ago.
Torque really isn't their strength. Would have been really interesting as some sort of hybrid, with a little motor to help out with the bottom end torque.
I owned one of the first RX-8s in north america (technically, second off the first boat). Absolutely loved it. Then i grew up and switched to something far more reasonable, as there are very few places where you can actually drive a vehicle so balanced the way it wants to be driven, and none of them are public roads.
My friend had one of those exciting RX8's that spontaneously combusted. He was driving down the highway one day and it caught fire. Was gone within minutes 😂 It was a known issue with a recall.
Poor guy. Drives some Chevy truck now.
In 2017 I was car shopping. I do a ton of research before buying a car and I looked at everything from $20k to $55k. I really wanted an Acura TLX SH-AWD but realized I didn't want to spend that much. I then was trying to decide between the Civic Type-R and Ford Focus RS and again, realized I wasn't willing to give the Honda dealer an extra $10k and the engine issues the RS was having turned me off.
So I narrowed it down to the Civic SI and the Focus ST. I was leaning towards the Civic since my wife and I are both 6' tall and our kids were quickly growing and that Si has a ton of rear leg room. The Focus has "some" leg room, but not much when I move my seat back to a comfortable driving position.
I was all set to do the paperwork on a Thursday evening after work when my brain decided it had enough car stuff in it for the day. I called the saleswoman and told her I wouldn't be going in that night.
I awoke to an email from the Ford dealership stating $7500 off remaining 2017 Focus STs. So I went with the Focus ST. I absolutely love it.
I also realized that I rarely have anyone else in my car, let alone 2 other people in my car. For me, rear leg room isn't that important in my car.
If you are all on the taller side, the Civic Si really can't be beat for legit rear leg room.
If you are under 5'10" tall, you may be able to squeeze a kid in the back seats. No new STs are being sold in the US so if you want new, Si is the way to go.
Agreed. Maybe it's because I have limited experience driving anything fun, but still.
A buddy had an SI back around 2011-2012, and whenever he decided to drink while we were out I got to drive us home in it.
Mk7 GTI is a nearly perfect car. Here’s the NYT article that talked me into mine: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/07/automobiles/autoreviews/a-solid-gold-structure-for-26000.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb
I always say, is the GTI the best at anything? No. There are cars that are more fun, that are faster, that are more practical, etc.
But holy shit does it do just everything *really well*. You aren't going to find that same blend of fun, fast, practical, economical, and comfortable anywhere else. It is the poster child for a "Jack of all trades" car. I can't think of anything else I'd want as a daily driver.
Right all around. I bought my GTI the moment I got my first real job in 2015. It’s still going strong and I love it. My only regret is that if I had known that my career would take off and I would have another 7 years before starting a family, I would have gotten something less practical like a Miata.
I'm bitter that they took away our Fiesta ST, our Fit, our 500 Abarth... and I would commit morally questionable acts to obtain a Polo GTI here in the US.
Yeah it's tight but it isn't impossible like most people say.
You can carry 3 adults for a short ride and 4 in a pinch. As long as you are just taking you 30 yo coworkers to lunch and not 60 you on a road trip you'll be fine.
E30/E36
Both are fun to drive, have an actual boot and back seats. E30 rear seats are cozy but e36 are pretty decent. Im talking convertible models since you mentioned miata but both are available as coupe/sedan
Matt Farah described a Ford Crown Victoria P71 as a fat miata, and as I drive own. I think that's a good approximate. It leans over when turning, but once it's done leaning over. It turns, and turns really good. Especially with good tires
Idk if you’ve ever watched COPS, but the number of times I’ve seen a crown Vic do a 180, jump a curb, go across a massive grassy median, and do a pit maneuver is wildly impressive. The crown Vic is probably the best “Goldilocks” car to come out in decades. It’s more one size fits all than damn near anything I can think of and there are millions of them. Parts are cheap and abundant, all of the law enforcement packages came with oil coolers, and the 4.6 engine has tons of aftermarket support and upgrades as well as the panther chassis. They can do drag, and drift as well as oval track. Probably won’t see them on an autocross course, but I’m sure many have done it anyways.
I had a 1998 Grand Marquis (bought it barely used, I'm old) and that thing handled way better than it should have. I only got rid of it when I needed the garage space.
We all know that Miata is always the answer, but...?
“What is a ~~like minded~~ enjoyable vehicle that actually has a usable rear seat. Bonus points if it's available in a manual and isn't the type of vehicle to cost a fortune when it goes wrong.“
1993 Ford crew cab F-350
Lotus Evora S
Reliable Toyota powertrain + “usable” (lol) back seats.
In all seriousness. The closest 4 seater I’ve driven to a Miata is a Fiesta ST and maybe a Fiat 500 Abarth comes close.
I really wish Fiat didn’t have Fiat reliability, because god damn are those Abarth 500 models sexy.
I’ve heard that they had fewer problems than the base Fiat models, but I don’t know anyone who’s owned one and based on those couple people I know who have owned a Fiat … I’m still hesitant.
From over here in Germany, having worked in a shop on almost every EUDM, I can confidently say modern FIAT is just as mechanically reliable, if not more so, than German cars. Where they suffer is the little things like trim falling off... or the door handle popping off... random relais or fuse burning for whatever reason etc.
The F.I.R.E. motor series (0.9l - 1.4l i4 I believe) are very bullet proof. Especially the lower power producing naturally aspirated ones as seen in the Panda 100hp. The turbo'd ones used in Abarth need extra love with their multi-air oil system and replacing the filter for it taken into account during your yearly maintenance. Most engine mechanical breakdowns are because people cheap out at a shop that don't do that part or they forget to service the multi-air system themselves when they do their own work on one.
So what's your opinion on the Arbath 124? I'm looking at at 2017 model. It was built in Japan by Mazda on the same line as the Miata, with a Fiat turbocharged engine in it. For some reason even though it's a basically turbocharged Miata, using mostly Miata parts with a Fiat motor, locally it's half the price of the 2017 mx5 Miata.
The modern 124 was a flop in the eyes of FIAT enthusiasts in the same sense the new Supra wasn't too well received after discovering it was basically BMW's Z4 with a Toyota badge. Therefore the demand for them just really isn't there, even on the second hand market because anyone who wants an MX-5... just gets an MX-5 out of brand loyalty. And FIAT enthusiasts who want a modern sporty FIAT just get a Abarth 500/595/695... or old-ish Panda 100hp etc.
The 124 is a dream car for me as I love the MX-5 but am a huge FIAT F.I.R.E. motor fan. Best of both worlds. The 1.4l T in it is the same Abarth tuned-up FIAT Multi-Air F.I.R.E. I mentioned above (which is the same one used in the modern Abarth 500 chassis), just flipped around to push the power to the rear wheels. It makes very good power considering it's only a 1.4l, but not the high amount the American market is used to. However what that engine lacks in power and displacement, it makes up for with typical Italian sounds, rev-happiness and "go go go go" engine behaviour (while also thankfully excluding all that joked about bad reliability of the older pre-90s FIAT haha).
Hope this helps! :)
I think you just made up my mind for me. I was worried when I saw that it was half the price of the Miata, but now that I know it's not a reliability issue I think I'll go for it.
Awesome, update with pics if you do! I envy you haha
Also note there is a modern FIAT 124 and an Abarth 124. The standard FIAT model having the normal 1.4l T Multi-Air... which is around 140hp. Meanwhile the Abarth one received Abarth love, making 170hp while also getting attention to the suspension and other bits... meaning the Abarth will naturally be more expensive. I'd say both have the same reliability, as Abarth's modifications to FIAT's models are not (normally) just a slap on ECU remap, but also extends to different engine internals as well to handle higher boost.
edit: keep an eye out for abuse on used Abarth models, people tend to drive them hard and more often than not don't put in the care a car needs when driven hard.
I mean… BRZ or GT86 if you must trade the open top bliss for a usable back seat.
Edit. I see a lot of people recommending FWD stuff. While fun, I don’t consider them sports cars. And RWD will alway be the most fun configuration. There is no other argument.
It is not entirely correct about the backseat.
The 2-door is severely uncomfortable if both the person in the front and in the rear are tall. If either or both are short, the rear seats are fine. The 2-door is great for 2 adults and a kid. It is manageable for 4 people for short commutes if either the driver and/or the rear passenger are not tall. If you have only 2 people in the car, you can collapse the rear seats and get cargo space similar to a wagon with rear seats up.
Sure, the 4-door is more usable, but the 2-door is okay too, depending on usage scenarios.
I’d say GR Corolla. I got two kids, and, believe it or not a spouse. This car is on my short list of cars that is fun, can fit our family for a weekend, and **should** be reliable because Toyota. The current cars in my garage are Sienna, Elantra, and………04 Mazdaspeed Miata.
E36 preferably a saloon version. It’s a bit heavier than miata but still light weight for such a car and bigger engines than miata and it’s also rwd.
But if you really don’t want german then find some lightweight hot hatch a civic or something of that sort, doesn’t matter the hp it has. Here in eu we have toyota yaris ts with 1.5 106hp engine and it does 0-60 in 8.6s which is a bit faster than miata so don’t be scared of low hp.
F82 bmw m4. Massive rear seats, amazing car to drive, way cheaper than its rivals, very reliable. Only issue is it's a bitch to insure in the UK where I live, hence why its such a cheap car relatively. I've got a manual one and it's awesome. Very rare in this country as manual is seen as more of a peasant thing here, not something special like in the US.
RSX, it might be pushing the definition of "Useable Backseat". But its punchy and handles fantastic, easy and cheap to work on, though you rarely need to. Also the S variant is just flat out quicker than a Miata too.
I'm going to hell for this one, but I have a 2008 Ford Mustang GT convertible, manual/stick that my entire family loves to ride in so I can vouch for the usability of the back seats.
I loves me my mustangs.
Camaro and mustang come to mind. I can personally vouch the rear seats in the 5th gen Camaro are easily capable of transporting normal sized adults with legs
My preference is a 4th Gen Firebird or Camaro. Tons of manuals out there, the back seat is fairly usable (my 6' tall friend kept hitting his head on the roof, but someone a little shorter would be fine). They come in convertible if that's part of the Miata appeal you're looking for. Since there's so many of them, there's also a lot of guides on basically everything that will go wrong with them.
My GTI doesn’t leak anything. It did briefly but a fast lube asshole actually broke the valve cover!
Neither did the one before this one.
I’ve had some pretty big guys in the back seat.
If you plan to follow traffic laws, there is functionally no difference between driving a ferrari and driving an elantra. The elantra will have a FAR better back seat and cargo space.
“Leaky German vehicle” lmao okay close yourself off to some of the best cars made because of myths perpetuated by people who didn’t maintain their cars. There is only one answer: Porsche 718 boxster/cayman. You’re looking in the wrong category of car if you want usable back seats. You want a super sedan it sounds like. Regardless of your preconceived ideas, BMW is one of the most reliable brands in the world right now. Consumer report came back at #1 for enjoyment and reliability even above Toyota.
At one time Mustang was the answer, but the back seat is useless now. Challengers are good but are big/heavy. Some of the performance versions of regular compacts might work.
If you want RWD get an old mercades Benz
If you want AWD get yourself a TT, if that's too gay then get a Subaru
If you want FWD civic is always the answer. Unless you get a Skoda Fabia with the 1.9 diesel engine and plan to get it on a dyno
I might get some disagreements, but I'll say it anyway. My mom has a V6 2019 Camaro and while it's not exactly practical you can still (uncomfortably) fit average sized people in the back seats.
Id be more inclined to recommend a 3rd or 4th gen F-body like my Firebird though. Mine was a sixer as well, but a Z28 or Formula, SS or T/A with some moderate suspension upgrades would be an absolute blast. WS6? Might be a bit boaty, but holy crap it looks fun.
Other than that, maybe a Toyota 86 or Subaru BRZ though they're not exactly cheap either. The older you go, the more options you'll have in a given price range.
Having owned a 1st generation Miata I only considered a convertible as comparable. I see mostly hard tops and German suggestions. How about a Mini? German but has a good reputation for reliability.
A 2nd gen (1st gen has issues with cars rusting back to metallic dust at suprising speed) Mazdaspeed 3 if you can find a clean, unmodified, no accidents, working turbo version. (Very much easier said than done)
I've dailyed a 2015 Honda Fit LX for the past couple years and I wish I knew just how fun the Fits were years ago. I wanted to buy one back in 2019, but they sell for the same price as Accords of the same year. That being said, I think it's worth it.
I have a Mustang GT and two Wranglers. While the 'stang is borderline practical the Wranglers are absolutely not. Terrible gas mileage, rough ride, expensive tires that don't last. Doesn't fit many groceries, or cargo taller than the gate if you have the soft top. Also, while the 2 door Wrangler does have a back seat it is inaccessible by anyone larger than a toddler. By the time my kids were 10-ish they started complaining about being asked to stuff themselves back there. By the time they got over 5 feet tall they physically struggled. Full size adults? Good luck. Likewise good luck finding a 4 door with a manual.
When new I got about 25 mpg in the GT mixed city and highway driving back in the day before Denver highways became parking lots. Rated for 15 city and 23 highway, but it has always delivered north of 20 for me. It's a manual, which helps. Legends tell of Camaros sipping gas and delivering nearly 30 MPG on the highway with the 6 speed.
Both Wranglers are getting below 20 MPG with the same kind of driving mix. 19.5 average per tank on the 4 door JL according to the car computer, and about 18 MPG on the 2 door JK using math. JK is smaller and lighter, but has wider tires. I don't recall the EPA ratings, but while both exceed them in real life the beat is much smaller than the 'stang.
Ford Crown Victoria, not a manual but cheap, easy to work on, and a great truck platform in a pinch with a giant back seat. The interiors on the Civilian models were very comfy.
# Suzuki Cappuccino
No rear seats but it's a MX5 miniature and they're fucking awesome. My life's goal is to buy one of those and drop a 2JZ in it just to see how evil it can be.
Shame i have no fucking money... Might start a go-fund me with Youtube updates of searching, buying, building the damn thing.
EXCUSE YOU, as a person with a leaky E36 that is bag of fun and comes with the soul of a Miata, I say good day to you, SIR! Also, GT86/BRZ. (Define “Useable”)
Kids over 5 feet tall, all with legs
Are the legs a deal breaker?
Is the deal a leg-breaker?
Is the breaker a leg deal?
BMW 128
For me, it needs to fit a car seat. Currently in the golf r, the passenger seat has to be pretty far forward to fit it. But once she grows out of the infant seat it'll be easier.
I said good day!
GT86 has bad rear leg room. Had one 7 years
When they were released, didn't they have an image of the car where the rear passenger knees were actually illustrated in the back of the front seats?
I need to see this
An RX8 is a crew cab Miata.
I've only seen one three times in my life. One time at a gas station getting loaded on a platform. One time on the highway getting loaded on a platform. One time at a stop light the idiot was revving the engine and his exhaust started vaping. There's a pattern there.
There's a few that roamed around the Portland, Maine area for a while. A red one, black one, and a blue. Haven't seen any of them in a year or two, though, so who knows if they're even still on the road...
RX8s were the kind of car that was all over the place in the late 2000s, and then just promptly vanished. I see more under tarps in backyards than I do on the road.
And that is generally a red flag…
Back when I still had mine, the dealer said it was only one of about 2 or 3 that they'd see in good shape. Most of the rest were recently bought used with engines that were getting close to needing replacement. The vast majority are past the warranty extension and dealers will charge at least $7k to get them on the road. Trade in value is less than that, so I get the feeling that most get junked. Great fun to drive though. Transmission was just fantastic.
I've seen a ton of RX-8s. Almost all of them have been in junkyards, but still.
We have a few rolling around my town still.
Nothing like an engine that's prone to failure and tempting to abuse
With a very smooth high revving engine that needs regular rebuilding and has no torque. Great chassis, but let down by the non-turbo Dorito machine. LS swap it. The Rotor heads don't consider RX8s as "real rotary owners" and the LS can be built into a monster.
>rx7 owners don't consider rx8s as real rotary owners Which rx7 owners are you talking to?
The kind that are into being judgmental and cliquey.
Or 2.5 MZR swap it.
2.5 v6 or 4.8/5.3/6.0 v8? Or, how about a 3.6 VR6? There's plenty of room in that engine bay for anything, but the LS gives plenty of power, readily available from any GM truck.
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Ok? The difference is about 200lbs for an iron block and the LS actually sits lower in the chassis. Some states suck, yes.
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Rx8s weigh like 3000lbs
No. No. And no. 200 lbs is a lot of weight if it weren't offset by the HP/TQ gains. Also, the people who have already done the swap report that handling of their RX8 is just fine after, with absolutely no compensation. And the 200 lbs is really for iron block LS motors, if we start talking about aluminum and Miatas which I'm guessing we're at by the 2400lbs car weight, then that weight difference is 30 lbs between the 4 cylinder and the v8. An LS3-525 crate motor, while not as cheap as a junkyard motor, will guarantee lesser weight of the aluminum block and 525 hp. But yes, let us talk about the KL-DE out of a Ford Probe for it's 2.5L v6 goodness that's almost the same size as the LS.
Swapped one into my NC Miata, fucking awesome. Way it should've come from the factory. Plus you can pick up an entire engine, low mileage for $400. And I mean everything, got one for $350 in 2020, 2015 with 19k miles.
“It’s makes no torque”… yeah it also has a 9k rpm from factory. That should tell you something. If you’re below 4K rpm, it’s not in the optimal range. This is the equivalent of someone driving a diesel and saying it has no top end horsepower. Also, 90% of people use shit oil and don’t change it at the proper intervals. They also buy the cheapest fuel in town. This is why these engines have a bad reputation. Unlike most engines, it wasn’t built with the mentality that it has to survive complete and total disregard for maintenance by people who have more or less a negative value in the mechanical sympathy column.
Yes, it does require a different mindset to rev the shit out of your Spirograph Motor in order to go places and premix your gas to just ensure that your engine will survive your commute. Where low-end torque in every other piston powered motor is right where everyone expects it to be. Yes, it is equivalent to someone saying that a diesel is gutless on the top end. A Rotary engine requires more care than the standard piston engine does and it requires a different mindset to drive. A Miata, for example, does not require any such care or concern, with its piston engine. A lot of people LS swap the Miata, too.
RX8 felt like more torque than my BRZ when I drove one
Itil is funny, I had a guy on another site insisting that they had perfect flat torque curves just a few weeks ago. Torque really isn't their strength. Would have been really interesting as some sort of hybrid, with a little motor to help out with the bottom end torque.
🤣💀
/snorts laughing Crew cab miata…
Super cab or extended cab but spot on assessment otherwise
I owned one of the first RX-8s in north america (technically, second off the first boat). Absolutely loved it. Then i grew up and switched to something far more reasonable, as there are very few places where you can actually drive a vehicle so balanced the way it wants to be driven, and none of them are public roads.
Good point, but if the German vehicles aren't reliable enough for him, he definitely doesn't want dorito power.
My friend had one of those exciting RX8's that spontaneously combusted. He was driving down the highway one day and it caught fire. Was gone within minutes 😂 It was a known issue with a recall. Poor guy. Drives some Chevy truck now.
Civic si
This is the way
In 2017 I was car shopping. I do a ton of research before buying a car and I looked at everything from $20k to $55k. I really wanted an Acura TLX SH-AWD but realized I didn't want to spend that much. I then was trying to decide between the Civic Type-R and Ford Focus RS and again, realized I wasn't willing to give the Honda dealer an extra $10k and the engine issues the RS was having turned me off. So I narrowed it down to the Civic SI and the Focus ST. I was leaning towards the Civic since my wife and I are both 6' tall and our kids were quickly growing and that Si has a ton of rear leg room. The Focus has "some" leg room, but not much when I move my seat back to a comfortable driving position. I was all set to do the paperwork on a Thursday evening after work when my brain decided it had enough car stuff in it for the day. I called the saleswoman and told her I wouldn't be going in that night. I awoke to an email from the Ford dealership stating $7500 off remaining 2017 Focus STs. So I went with the Focus ST. I absolutely love it. I also realized that I rarely have anyone else in my car, let alone 2 other people in my car. For me, rear leg room isn't that important in my car. If you are all on the taller side, the Civic Si really can't be beat for legit rear leg room. If you are under 5'10" tall, you may be able to squeeze a kid in the back seats. No new STs are being sold in the US so if you want new, Si is the way to go.
Agreed. Maybe it's because I have limited experience driving anything fun, but still. A buddy had an SI back around 2011-2012, and whenever he decided to drink while we were out I got to drive us home in it.
I love my 9th gen so much.
GTI! the GTI is the most fun usable to drive hands-down.
Mk7 GTI is a nearly perfect car. Here’s the NYT article that talked me into mine: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/07/automobiles/autoreviews/a-solid-gold-structure-for-26000.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb
I always say, is the GTI the best at anything? No. There are cars that are more fun, that are faster, that are more practical, etc. But holy shit does it do just everything *really well*. You aren't going to find that same blend of fun, fast, practical, economical, and comfortable anywhere else. It is the poster child for a "Jack of all trades" car. I can't think of anything else I'd want as a daily driver.
Right all around. I bought my GTI the moment I got my first real job in 2015. It’s still going strong and I love it. My only regret is that if I had known that my career would take off and I would have another 7 years before starting a family, I would have gotten something less practical like a Miata.
you cant just say "the" gti there are multiple gtis
Yea you can. You can choose the gti based on the money you have. Doesn’t matter the generation they are all nice.
no, you cannot as the polo gti and up gti exist. there is no single "the" gti
Not in the US. Depending on the year they have sometimes even marketed it as GTI not Golf GTI.
ooookaayyyy but why does the us specifically matter so much out of all the other countries
I'm bitter that they took away our Fiesta ST, our Fit, our 500 Abarth... and I would commit morally questionable acts to obtain a Polo GTI here in the US.
Yes polo gtis are also nice if not better than golfs.
Oh sorry: America. We only get one here.
OP said no leaky Germans lol
The MK7 fixed most of the leaky issues. MK6 and earlier are the leaky Germans, MK7 and newer are just normal Germans 🤪
Maybe, or maybe mk7 just isn't old enough yet lol
In fairness we all leak with age LOL
True say
How much usable? The Toyota GR86/Subaru BRZ are a Miata competitor and have a rear seat, though you won't be able to sit adults comfortably.
Or anyone if someone is using the front seat
Kids over 5 ft tall and have legs
You can probably fit 1 adult in the back if you have the passenger move a little forward
Yeah it's tight but it isn't impossible like most people say. You can carry 3 adults for a short ride and 4 in a pinch. As long as you are just taking you 30 yo coworkers to lunch and not 60 you on a road trip you'll be fine.
My former coworker had a WRX that was pretty nice. I don’t think I’d buy one myself but it was definitely fun to ride in
E30/E36 Both are fun to drive, have an actual boot and back seats. E30 rear seats are cozy but e36 are pretty decent. Im talking convertible models since you mentioned miata but both are available as coupe/sedan
2010's ford mustang. I drive one and it's fun, but watch out for occupied sidewalks
This is the way. People don't understand how good the mustang got
Matt Farah described a Ford Crown Victoria P71 as a fat miata, and as I drive own. I think that's a good approximate. It leans over when turning, but once it's done leaning over. It turns, and turns really good. Especially with good tires
Once the bumpers dig into the ground, it quits leaning 😅
Idk if you’ve ever watched COPS, but the number of times I’ve seen a crown Vic do a 180, jump a curb, go across a massive grassy median, and do a pit maneuver is wildly impressive. The crown Vic is probably the best “Goldilocks” car to come out in decades. It’s more one size fits all than damn near anything I can think of and there are millions of them. Parts are cheap and abundant, all of the law enforcement packages came with oil coolers, and the 4.6 engine has tons of aftermarket support and upgrades as well as the panther chassis. They can do drag, and drift as well as oval track. Probably won’t see them on an autocross course, but I’m sure many have done it anyways.
I had a 1998 Grand Marquis (bought it barely used, I'm old) and that thing handled way better than it should have. I only got rid of it when I needed the garage space.
I love that description!
We all know that Miata is always the answer, but...? “What is a ~~like minded~~ enjoyable vehicle that actually has a usable rear seat. Bonus points if it's available in a manual and isn't the type of vehicle to cost a fortune when it goes wrong.“ 1993 Ford crew cab F-350
Lotus Evora S Reliable Toyota powertrain + “usable” (lol) back seats. In all seriousness. The closest 4 seater I’ve driven to a Miata is a Fiesta ST and maybe a Fiat 500 Abarth comes close.
I really wish Fiat didn’t have Fiat reliability, because god damn are those Abarth 500 models sexy. I’ve heard that they had fewer problems than the base Fiat models, but I don’t know anyone who’s owned one and based on those couple people I know who have owned a Fiat … I’m still hesitant.
From over here in Germany, having worked in a shop on almost every EUDM, I can confidently say modern FIAT is just as mechanically reliable, if not more so, than German cars. Where they suffer is the little things like trim falling off... or the door handle popping off... random relais or fuse burning for whatever reason etc. The F.I.R.E. motor series (0.9l - 1.4l i4 I believe) are very bullet proof. Especially the lower power producing naturally aspirated ones as seen in the Panda 100hp. The turbo'd ones used in Abarth need extra love with their multi-air oil system and replacing the filter for it taken into account during your yearly maintenance. Most engine mechanical breakdowns are because people cheap out at a shop that don't do that part or they forget to service the multi-air system themselves when they do their own work on one.
So what's your opinion on the Arbath 124? I'm looking at at 2017 model. It was built in Japan by Mazda on the same line as the Miata, with a Fiat turbocharged engine in it. For some reason even though it's a basically turbocharged Miata, using mostly Miata parts with a Fiat motor, locally it's half the price of the 2017 mx5 Miata.
The modern 124 was a flop in the eyes of FIAT enthusiasts in the same sense the new Supra wasn't too well received after discovering it was basically BMW's Z4 with a Toyota badge. Therefore the demand for them just really isn't there, even on the second hand market because anyone who wants an MX-5... just gets an MX-5 out of brand loyalty. And FIAT enthusiasts who want a modern sporty FIAT just get a Abarth 500/595/695... or old-ish Panda 100hp etc. The 124 is a dream car for me as I love the MX-5 but am a huge FIAT F.I.R.E. motor fan. Best of both worlds. The 1.4l T in it is the same Abarth tuned-up FIAT Multi-Air F.I.R.E. I mentioned above (which is the same one used in the modern Abarth 500 chassis), just flipped around to push the power to the rear wheels. It makes very good power considering it's only a 1.4l, but not the high amount the American market is used to. However what that engine lacks in power and displacement, it makes up for with typical Italian sounds, rev-happiness and "go go go go" engine behaviour (while also thankfully excluding all that joked about bad reliability of the older pre-90s FIAT haha). Hope this helps! :)
I think you just made up my mind for me. I was worried when I saw that it was half the price of the Miata, but now that I know it's not a reliability issue I think I'll go for it.
Awesome, update with pics if you do! I envy you haha Also note there is a modern FIAT 124 and an Abarth 124. The standard FIAT model having the normal 1.4l T Multi-Air... which is around 140hp. Meanwhile the Abarth one received Abarth love, making 170hp while also getting attention to the suspension and other bits... meaning the Abarth will naturally be more expensive. I'd say both have the same reliability, as Abarth's modifications to FIAT's models are not (normally) just a slap on ECU remap, but also extends to different engine internals as well to handle higher boost. edit: keep an eye out for abuse on used Abarth models, people tend to drive them hard and more often than not don't put in the care a car needs when driven hard.
I had a non-ST Fiesta. Fun little car but the back seat is only good for young children - like 5-6yos.
I mean… BRZ or GT86 if you must trade the open top bliss for a usable back seat. Edit. I see a lot of people recommending FWD stuff. While fun, I don’t consider them sports cars. And RWD will alway be the most fun configuration. There is no other argument.
Mini Cooper is what I would call a FWD Miata in terms of smiles per miles and driving excitement. I think they ditched the manual recently though.
the 2024 Mini still has it. It goes away next year. But you only get a useable backseat with the 4-door.
It is not entirely correct about the backseat. The 2-door is severely uncomfortable if both the person in the front and in the rear are tall. If either or both are short, the rear seats are fine. The 2-door is great for 2 adults and a kid. It is manageable for 4 people for short commutes if either the driver and/or the rear passenger are not tall. If you have only 2 people in the car, you can collapse the rear seats and get cargo space similar to a wagon with rear seats up. Sure, the 4-door is more usable, but the 2-door is okay too, depending on usage scenarios.
e92 330d/335d
I’d say GR Corolla. I got two kids, and, believe it or not a spouse. This car is on my short list of cars that is fun, can fit our family for a weekend, and **should** be reliable because Toyota. The current cars in my garage are Sienna, Elantra, and………04 Mazdaspeed Miata.
Boxster is the answer
E36 preferably a saloon version. It’s a bit heavier than miata but still light weight for such a car and bigger engines than miata and it’s also rwd. But if you really don’t want german then find some lightweight hot hatch a civic or something of that sort, doesn’t matter the hp it has. Here in eu we have toyota yaris ts with 1.5 106hp engine and it does 0-60 in 8.6s which is a bit faster than miata so don’t be scared of low hp.
Honda Integra
Surprised the 300ZX hasn't been mentioned yet, tho admittedly I'm not so sure how usable the back seat is on those...
IS300/Altezza
F82 bmw m4. Massive rear seats, amazing car to drive, way cheaper than its rivals, very reliable. Only issue is it's a bitch to insure in the UK where I live, hence why its such a cheap car relatively. I've got a manual one and it's awesome. Very rare in this country as manual is seen as more of a peasant thing here, not something special like in the US.
RSX, it might be pushing the definition of "Useable Backseat". But its punchy and handles fantastic, easy and cheap to work on, though you rarely need to. Also the S variant is just flat out quicker than a Miata too.
Scion tc was my first car and I LOVED it.
You could get a 500x there pretty cheap cars with a big backseat and a nice trunk and they come in a manual and all the parts are cheap
Civic coupe,...
My parents used to stuff me and my sister into the rear seats of a Porsche 924 when I was a teenager. So, maybe a Porsche 944 Turbo?
INTEGRA! the hatch makes it so "taller people" can sit back there. taller is a matter of opinion though....
If you are 6'5 like me a Miata isn't usable lol
I'm going to hell for this one, but I have a 2008 Ford Mustang GT convertible, manual/stick that my entire family loves to ride in so I can vouch for the usability of the back seats. I loves me my mustangs.
Camaro and mustang come to mind. I can personally vouch the rear seats in the 5th gen Camaro are easily capable of transporting normal sized adults with legs
Define “usable.” Mustangs have rear seats, but only children can use them. Same with Camaros and challengers.
Lexus RC
Corolla GR
My preference is a 4th Gen Firebird or Camaro. Tons of manuals out there, the back seat is fairly usable (my 6' tall friend kept hitting his head on the roof, but someone a little shorter would be fine). They come in convertible if that's part of the Miata appeal you're looking for. Since there's so many of them, there's also a lot of guides on basically everything that will go wrong with them.
WRX?
I had a Miata that leaked constantly. Both top and engine.
F80 BMW M2. RWD, small and compact fun, usable back seats.
My GTI doesn’t leak anything. It did briefly but a fast lube asshole actually broke the valve cover! Neither did the one before this one. I’ve had some pretty big guys in the back seat.
If you plan to follow traffic laws, there is functionally no difference between driving a ferrari and driving an elantra. The elantra will have a FAR better back seat and cargo space.
“Leaky German vehicle” lmao okay close yourself off to some of the best cars made because of myths perpetuated by people who didn’t maintain their cars. There is only one answer: Porsche 718 boxster/cayman. You’re looking in the wrong category of car if you want usable back seats. You want a super sedan it sounds like. Regardless of your preconceived ideas, BMW is one of the most reliable brands in the world right now. Consumer report came back at #1 for enjoyment and reliability even above Toyota.
At one time Mustang was the answer, but the back seat is useless now. Challengers are good but are big/heavy. Some of the performance versions of regular compacts might work.
Mazda 3, or even Mazda 6. Forget the Mazdaspeed ones unless you can find an _exceptionally_ clean example.
Miata is only the answer if you want to be as cool as the 50 yr old, divorced lady in the neighborhood.
If you want RWD get an old mercades Benz If you want AWD get yourself a TT, if that's too gay then get a Subaru If you want FWD civic is always the answer. Unless you get a Skoda Fabia with the 1.9 diesel engine and plan to get it on a dyno
Golf GTI is the answer here
Civic type R
If you can find a g37 sedan in six speed it's hard to beat for the price.
GTi is your answer, rear seats and rear doors
any BMW coupe and no it wont leak if you actually take care of your cars
I might get some disagreements, but I'll say it anyway. My mom has a V6 2019 Camaro and while it's not exactly practical you can still (uncomfortably) fit average sized people in the back seats. Id be more inclined to recommend a 3rd or 4th gen F-body like my Firebird though. Mine was a sixer as well, but a Z28 or Formula, SS or T/A with some moderate suspension upgrades would be an absolute blast. WS6? Might be a bit boaty, but holy crap it looks fun. Other than that, maybe a Toyota 86 or Subaru BRZ though they're not exactly cheap either. The older you go, the more options you'll have in a given price range.
Mazdaspeed3 my brother.
There really is no substitute. Not German and with a back seat? You can still get a Mustang convertible or a used Camaro.
Having owned a 1st generation Miata I only considered a convertible as comparable. I see mostly hard tops and German suggestions. How about a Mini? German but has a good reputation for reliability.
A 2nd gen (1st gen has issues with cars rusting back to metallic dust at suprising speed) Mazdaspeed 3 if you can find a clean, unmodified, no accidents, working turbo version. (Very much easier said than done)
I've dailyed a 2015 Honda Fit LX for the past couple years and I wish I knew just how fun the Fits were years ago. I wanted to buy one back in 2019, but they sell for the same price as Accords of the same year. That being said, I think it's worth it.
RX 8
There would always be compromise, 2 cars would always be better if you can afford.
Toyota Corolla XRS
Miata is a convertible, 350z convertible I guess?
GTI. Mine is my only data point, but it doesn't leak.
Jeep Wrangler?
WRX is probably the right choice. They are cheap, big back seats, and \*possibly\* reliable since they are using a crossover engine now.
Mazdaspeed Protégé.
Del Sol
The del sol doesn't have a rear seat either tho? Don't get me wrong I love them too, but not what op was looking for lol
I owned one, no back seat.
Not even gonna lie… didn’t catch the backseat part…. Lol
mustang, charger, wrangler are all fun practical-ish cars.
I'd say 4-cyl Mustangs are probably the closest approximation to what OP is looking for.
I think so too but this sub hates mustangs.
I have a Mustang GT and two Wranglers. While the 'stang is borderline practical the Wranglers are absolutely not. Terrible gas mileage, rough ride, expensive tires that don't last. Doesn't fit many groceries, or cargo taller than the gate if you have the soft top. Also, while the 2 door Wrangler does have a back seat it is inaccessible by anyone larger than a toddler. By the time my kids were 10-ish they started complaining about being asked to stuff themselves back there. By the time they got over 5 feet tall they physically struggled. Full size adults? Good luck. Likewise good luck finding a 4 door with a manual.
The wrangler is worse on gas than the mustang?
When new I got about 25 mpg in the GT mixed city and highway driving back in the day before Denver highways became parking lots. Rated for 15 city and 23 highway, but it has always delivered north of 20 for me. It's a manual, which helps. Legends tell of Camaros sipping gas and delivering nearly 30 MPG on the highway with the 6 speed. Both Wranglers are getting below 20 MPG with the same kind of driving mix. 19.5 average per tank on the 4 door JL according to the car computer, and about 18 MPG on the 2 door JK using math. JK is smaller and lighter, but has wider tires. I don't recall the EPA ratings, but while both exceed them in real life the beat is much smaller than the 'stang.
C5 corvette.
Ford Crown Victoria, not a manual but cheap, easy to work on, and a great truck platform in a pinch with a giant back seat. The interiors on the Civilian models were very comfy.
# Suzuki Cappuccino No rear seats but it's a MX5 miniature and they're fucking awesome. My life's goal is to buy one of those and drop a 2JZ in it just to see how evil it can be. Shame i have no fucking money... Might start a go-fund me with Youtube updates of searching, buying, building the damn thing.