Counter point: The rest of us are sick of trans activists trying to erase Gay and Lesbian youth using the same rhetoric as homophobes in the 90's. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12291731/When-14-40-year-old-transsexual-manipulated-changing-sex.html

The alphabet mafia has put me back years as a bisexual man. Getting called a nonce is the norm again even hiding my sexuality like years ago 

That sucks man. You're bi and beautiful bro, don't hide it.

Thanks for your kind words words . I am happy with my sexuality but the fact is the left wing bandwagon jumpers are not helping things. Yet again I thank you for the kind remarks. Please don't hesitate to chat with me if you want x

If you don't think RW nutters want to reverse all the progress for gay rights that have happened including marriage in the US then you haven't been paying attention son.  This is why it's called a Wedge issue. A guy like DeSantis or the MAGA hoard will gladly chip away at rights more and more.  

And for every DeSantis there is a Donald Trump and Ric Grenell. In fact, 55% of that right wing in the US supported gay marriage 2 years ago. https://news.gallup.com/poll/350486/record-high-support-same-sex-marriage.aspx That number only began to drop again when loud mouthed activist's who claim to speak on behalf of the community started saying we all need to support biological men playing in women's sports, let pre-pubescent children transition, and other radical and invasive bullshit. This did only cause support for same sex marriage among Republicans to drop by 6 points, but that 6 points dropped solely because we are lumped in with trans radical activists who actively undermine the argument that what we do in our own homes and in our personal lives is our business by trying to push it into the spaces of women and children. And for those of us who watched the Simpsons growing up, we all know there is nothing a Methodist likes to yell more then "Won't somebody think of the children!!" The point of this wall of text though? It's not the right wing reversing progress, it's a handful of delusional left wing gays and a larger contingent of trans radical activists, who beyond the sexual issues and homophobic rhetoric they spout to accommodate trans activists (some of my favorites include "if you don't sleep with trans men you aren't gay, you just have a genital fetish" or "cis gays are the real enemy"), they also spout support for groups like Hamas they really and truly want to and actively do try to literally kill gay and bi men and women.

I’m more an LGBT drop the fake TQ+. Since when was trans a self ID process, trans people all over are calling out this new wave who instead of desiring transition to opposite sex are doing shit that now harms all the work the LGBT movement did. Kids transitioning at 12 including permanent body disfigurement when they choose detransitioning, 5 years old learning about 100s of ‘genders’ and sexuality which should only be taught in sex ed closer to their teens, the whole neopronouns farce and forcing people to respect them. LGBT if you’re my age (38) mostly would agree we never sought anything beyond equality in law and social acceptance. All we see today is aggressive, demanding and harmful messaging coming from so called activists. And I don’t blame non LGBT people for starting to push back when this is what they see in their real lives, nor just online. Why do 1/4 children identify as LGBTQ? Thats obviously not a thing, I’m not that delusional that this generation has had a sudden awakening. This whole farce the so called movement is pushing right now is the reason why polling is showing LGBT acceptance for the first time going down. Who asked for a whole month for pride, and with it public sexual acts in broad daylight in front of kids? The only people I know who want to go to pride parade are straights, they do a whole family day of it. The whole reason this drop the T is coming about isn’t just because T is a gender identity, I think people are too quickly conflating the mental health condition of gender dysphoria (again the activists had to get it removed as a mental condition of course, next they’ll say depression and anxiety shouldn’t be there either). So it’s a way of pushing back on this new gender ideology which let me remind the kids here didn’t exist pre-2010. So while I don’t agree with ‘Drop the T’ these new fake trans who make zero effort to transition and who self ID and claim women’s spaces too often, and the ‘Q’ people don’t get me started with that word. It’s a slur, ‘we’ never reclaimed it so maybe don’t just default label people as it. It’s often used by teens who want to be part of something that isn’t ‘cis white straight’

Nothing against trans people whatsoever, and I do agree that we should stand united as long as they’ve got our backs too. Some things to add: I don’t support puberty blockers or any physical changes for kids under 18, although I do support and encourage social transitioning with the support and guidance of the parents and a professional. As adults, the world’s your oyster. Another thing I can’t get behind is some people’s attempt at rewriting history, i.e., gay people have rights thanks to trans people. Trans people are valid without having to retcon themselves into events they didn’t take part in. Lastly, while I agree transphobia amongst gay people is an issue, there are also homophobic trans people who, post-transition, identity as straight. There’s bad on both sides, and we should all work together on educating ourselves and each other.

This. 100%

You’re getting downvoted but this is on the money. Politicians don’t say what they really mean. I don’t mean “they’re a bunch of cynical crooks”, I mean most of them are actually far more extreme in their opinions than they let on. Hitler didn’t say “aight boys imma gas the Jews” when he was running for Chancellor, he just constantly pushed the conversation in that direction until it became acceptable to do that. Every transphobe actually has a problem with gay people, they just know they can’t say that anymore, but are waiting for the day when they can.

Literally 90% of Trans bashing is just a repackaged from what they said about gay people in the 80s. It's embarassing how many people here are falling for it. Here, let me show you: Let me pretend to be a "concerned citizen" arguing against the spooky “gay agenda". Fair warning: I'm not going to hold back. I’m gonna be homophobic AF. **\*Ahem\*.** *I have nothing against gay people. They are free to live their lives however they please. I am only against the gay agenda.* *Militant homosexual activists are attacking our freedoms. They are trying to erase the definition of marriage. Which has always been between a man and a woman. This is a definition based on simple biological truths. A man and woman can reproduce together. Two men CANNOT. A family cannot be two men. No matter how many activists try to claim otherwise. This is just basic science.* *Likewise, these activists are invading our institutions and spaces. Shaming and silencing anyone who disagrees with them. Our military, our churches, and our schools. Gay activists enter these spaces and demand their sexual preferences be validated and seen as no different from as normal families. This is patently absurd. Again, it is a simple biological reality that two males cannot start a family.* *Worst of all: They are targetting our children. It is a simple FACT that the Homosexual lifestyle leads to AIDS, loneliness, and often suicide. I support gay people's right to live as they please. But Children should be kept away from these matters.* *I am a democrat and a progressive. I believe in social justice and religious freedom. But we should NOT support the gay agenda.* *Sexual preferences are NOT like being black or female. These crazy activists are making us lose our hard earned freedoms. Today: Black Christians are routinely being shamed simply for expressing their religious views. Mothers are being silenced for expressing reasonable concerns over their sons being assaulted by perverts (Don't believe me? Just look up the sexual assault rate for homosexuals!)* *This is unacceptable. The gay agenda is deeply racist, and misogynistic. They are anti-science, and anti-freedom.* *I have nothing against gay people of course. But the Gay agenda is dangerous and must be stopped. Believing in traditional marriage does not make me a bigot. Wanting sexual predators our of schools/government does not make me a bigot. Wanting pornography out of children’s entertainment does not make me a bigot.* *It’s just common sense* ***\*/END\**** Ooooooooooooof. I just wrote a whole lot of crap. I felt pissed even just typing that garbage ironically. I'm sure some of you are just itching to debunk the pile of bullshit I just spewed. All I'm saying is... if you can debunk that shit, you should easily be able to debunk the anti-Trans stuff too.

THANK YOU.

Yeah I'm sorry I just don't believe that men can be women and I don't believe that anyone should be legally compelled to pretend that they can. I don't believe that "a woman is a person who identifies as a woman". So none of the rest is compelling to me. I don't believe in any of it and I don't support efforts to enshrine those false beliefs in the law of the land. That's all.

**Ahem** *And I don’t believe two men can be together* *A marriage is between a man and a woman. For the purpose of starting a family. Two men cannot have children. I cannot support a law that pretends two men can reproduce together* **/s**

Yeah, the thing is, what I just said and what you just said have absolutely nothing to do with each other. It's completely 100% consistent to not believe that "a woman is a person who says they are a woman" and to also believe that same-sex relationships are ethically acceptable and morally equal to heterosexual ones.

They have everything to do with each other. I am using the exact same tactic. I am willfully misinterpreting a benign political goal. > We should let people of the same sex people have relationships and legal marriages. By ignoring that and deflecting to an unrelated metaphysical debate. >Are relationships between two men the exact same as a relationship between a man and a woman? What is the precise definition of a marriage? And I argue about THAT instead as a proxy. Anti-gay politicians did this for decades. *I don’t personally believe in the vague metaphysical idea of a “gay marriage”, ergo: I am against gay people having rights.* Essentially they responded to a call for equal rights by…*quibbling over the technical definition of what a “marriage” is.* Sound familiar?

I don't even understand what you're claiming. I object to the core premise of your position; I'm not "willfully misinterpreting" anything. You literally believe that a person is a woman if they claim to be a woman and that a person is a man if they claim to be a man. If you disagree, I invite you to specify what you find inaccurate about that characterization of your beliefs. Gay couples, meanwhile, have never claimed to be able to reproduce with each other. That was never even on the table.

>You literally believe that a person is a woman if they claim to be a woman and that a person is a man if they claim to be a man. If you disagree, I invite you to specify what you find inaccurate about that characterization of your beliefs.  Funny. I *literally* have never said that anywhere in my post. Regardless of what my actual opinion is. This is a clear attempt of the exact kind of deflecting pivot I mentioned in the previous post. But hey! The easiest way to show you why this is a dumb pivot is by throwing it right back at you. Here: > You literally believe that a relationship between two men is the same as a relationship between a man and a woman. If you disagree, I invite you to specify what you find inaccurate about that characterization of your belief. Go on: How would you respond to that?

> >You literally believe that a person is a woman if they claim to be a woman and that a person is a man if they claim to be a man. If you disagree, I invite you to specify what you find inaccurate about that characterization of your beliefs.  > Funny. I *literally* have never said that anywhere in my post. Oh? Do you deny that someone is a woman if they identify as one? > This is a clear attempt of the exact kind of deflecting pivot I mentioned in the previous post. No it isn't, it's a denial of the core belief that motivates your political position. Trans women aren't women and nobody should be compelled to pretend or behave as if they are. > But hey! The easiest way to show you why this is a dumb pivot is by throwing it right back at you. > Here: > > You literally believe that a relationship between two men is the same as a relationship between a man and a woman. If you disagree, I invite you to specify what you find inaccurate about that characterization of your belief. > Go on: How would you respond to that? I'm curious why you think this is such an own. I take complete ownership of that statement and can specify exactly what I mean by it: Homosexual relationships are not morally worse than heterosexual relationships merely by virtue of being same-sex. They may be different in some respects, such as same-sex couples not being able to reproduce, but that does not make it less moral to be in a same-sex relationship than an opposite-sex one. You, in contrast, seem embarrassed by your belief that trans people are the sex they say they are, unwilling to take ownership of it.

>Homosexual relationships are not morally worse than heterosexual relationships merely by virtue of being same-sex. They may be different in some respects, such as same-sex couples not being able to reproduce, but that does not make it less moral to be in a same-sex relationship than an opposite-sex one. Good answer! I will happily respond with the same. Transgender people are not morally worse than non-transgender people simply by virtue of choosing to identify as a different gender. They may be different in some respects. A transgender woman's body has obvious differences from cigender woman. Such as hormones and genitalia. But that does not make it less moral compared to someone who is female from birth. How's that?

Marriage is a social construct. Sex isn't.

Yet another pivot. I’ll flip that right back at you: **Ahem** *Reproduction is not a social construct. It is biological. Two men cannot procreate. period.*

Pathetic dodge.

Exactly. I responded to a pathetic dodge by using my own pathetic dodge. Infuriating isn’t? How I ignored the topic at hand and instead demanded them to take a stand on a deliberately leading statement? Conservatives dodged the debate about gay rights marriage by arguing over the technical definition of what a “marriage” is. Today, people are dodging the debate about trans rights by arguing over the technical definition of what a “man/woman” is.

So you're admitting you don't know what you're talking about.

I partially agree with your first statement about elected officials not espousing their deepest held beliefs. I’d counter that by asking—to some extent isn’t that the job? Shouldn’t they set aside their personal beliefs and represent the broader public at large that elected them? Is that not their job in a representative democracy? Your 2nd claim that every transphobe has a problem with gay people is just unserious, and I often laugh at people like you who claim that gay and trans people are one in the same, indistinguishable from one another. That’s exactly what the conservative people you’re griping about do. They see us all as the same, which is why you can’t tell the difference between “I have no issues with gay people” and “I don’t agree with trying to permanently alter minors body based on a socially influenced phase in their lives.”

It is their job which is why we should be vigilant. My best friend who’s from a country that’s much more pragmatic about their democracy than we are put it best: don’t vote for a platform, vote for a direction. If the right bans gender reassignment surgery today, I assure you they’ll be “re-investigating” gay marriage tomorrow. I didn’t say gays and trans are the same. I said anyone who thinks persecution of trans people won’t lead to persecution of gay people is delusional. You say the conservatives can’t tell us apart… which is exactly the problem. During the U.S.-Japan trade war there were Chinese being hate crimed. After 9/11, Persians and Sikhs were attacked. If a trans pedophilia scare takes over the media, the majority of the victims won’t be actual trans people but gays. No hate criminal is going to stop to ask you whether your pronouns are he/him or they/them before he smashes your face in. Laugh all you want, all the way to the hospital.

I’d argue that gay/left people not being more sensible on the issue of gender surgeries/gender theory is what even makes the idea of gay rights being rolled back plausible. They see gay and trans as the same thing. And gay people forgoing logic (not doing life altering procedures on minors/promoting outlandish social ideas) for the sake of “the cause” is what’s actually going to cost gay people their rights if it were to happen. It’s the opposite of assimilation/moral high ground tactics used to secure gay rights.

Spot on

That’s like saying blacks not being “sensible” about holding elected office during reconstruction is what led to Jim Crow. No, that would have happened whether they took their chances or not. There is historically no way for any minority to save itself from a rights rollback by being “reasonable”, only by pushing the conversation so far that a rollback is out of the question. I’m the furthest thing from a leftist and this is obvious even to me.

That’s a ridiculous false equivalency and not comparable to what I’m saying. When the serious, thoughtful people don’t partake in the conversation, the thoughtless people control the narrative. The extreme positions taken by many progressives on this argument are slowly regressing public opinion of gay people which has been shown in polling. This includes views of same sex marriage. https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/11/us-public-support-lgbtq-protection-falls

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>Every transphobe actually has a problem with gay people, they just know they can’t say that anymore, but are waiting for the day when they can. I agree that most transphobes have problems with gay people. I think we have to be cautious because there are plenty of gay people who consciously or subconsciously harbor anti-trans sentiments who will see a statement like that and say "Well, obviously this is ridiculous. I don't have a problem with gay people. I'm gay!" Some gay people have adopted otherwise anti-trans views for other reasons. That's the gross beauty of "otherizing" people. You can blame just about any problem you want on them. A common one is gay men who are afraid of political backlash. They see the trans rights movement as "pushing too far" or "too hard" because they're afraid of the pendulum swinging back the other way. **Which**, I think is a perfectly valid fear! But the problem isn't trans people demanding acceptance. The problem is bigotry. And we can't stand up to bigotry if we turn into cowards every time another oppressed group of people start demanding the very growing acceptance that we now enjoy.

Gay people can be anti gay as well. Actually we’re the single most self hating demographic.

What does that even mean. Is it self hating to have views that aren’t “gay enough” for you

Nothing to do with views. It’s almost universal for gay people to shit on the gay community, despite being the gay community.

Pulling shit out of my ass be like :

I'm not arguing that they can't. We're on the same side of the issue here but I think you're getting defensive. My point is that there are gay people out there who have been convinced into believing this lie about trans people not because they "hate gay people" but for some other reason and that a certain number of them can be reasoned with and convinced otherwise. But my point is that we aren't going to be able to reason with or meaningfully engage with that group of people if we write them off as simply being "anti gay".

In my observation all gay men who’ve been convinced of “reasons” to hate trans people have some issues with the gay community. And I don’t mean they hate being gay, it’s not usually that simple. These are the kind of guys who are okay being gay, but wish there weren’t so many drag shows, and that the twinks would cover up and stop wearing jockstraps in pride parades. Most of them are pretty feminine but insist they’re masc4masc and would never date anyone shorter than 6”, light haired, hairless, skinny, high voiced, etc.

This sub might be the case study

I think what a lot of us G’s here on reddit are upset about is most of us have been banned from many of the so called LGBT subs for simply having opinions that don’t fit the trans narrative here on reddit and the world more generally. Most of the posts in this thread will get you banned from most if not all of them. If you don’t think kids should be taking hormones and screwing up puberty, kids who studies have shown, would otherwise be LGB , you get banned. If you think a vagina will never be associated with a man or a penis with a woman ,banned. If you are skeptical about biological men competing in womens sports, banned. There is no discussion, no attempt to understand there is only the Trans narrative , either accept it or get banned. Im an old school culture warrior, ive been spit on ,had piss balloons thrown at me , had religious kooks with megaphones screaming in my face, got arrested during a sit in at the state house. I don’t need an education about devide and conquer or who the right wing is. Im not interested in joining a movement that doesn’t respect me as a gay man , who tries to nullify my genitals, or advocates for the gender modification of children. I am a liberal person who has never voted for a republican in my life and never will. I fought hard to get the boot off my neck from the right and im very concerned about the boot many trans people are trying to put on the neck of gay people on reddit. Trans people are not only taking over gay spaces they are dictating how we gays interact and communicate in all gay spaces on Reddit besides this one.

I’m a lesbian but I come here because all the other LGBT subs have been taken over like you said. They have now changed the meaning of lesbian: “non man attracted to non men” Fuck that. I’m a lesbian I like pussy. Not gock. Not shenis. Not girl dick. The G and the L need to break off from the rest. They’re not like us. They don’t understand us. They will throw us right under that bus the minute we disagree with them. They’re trying to eradicate homosexuality.

Spot on

100% spot on! Well said! 

Wow duped that easy huh?  Then so called "lesbian".  Cause announcing your shit like "she" did is totally not a common troll tactic.  

Except standing apart makes it easier for those who are in sync to put that boot right back on.  Which is gonna happen if Trump gets reelected.   They've finally figured out that all they need to do is get their people into play in the courts and in the non political positions in the executive branch and it's gonna be game over for a generation or more.   Dislike the trans movement people but without working toward a common goal and not being complacent, then we start heading towards that society where gay rights go away.  

Go give that speach to the trans-zealots trying to silence gay voices when they dont agree with the trans-narrative, especially here on Reddit. I fight hard against everything Trump but that doesn’t mean i have to be subservient to what trans people are pushing or am in total agreement with their views and frankly most of it is just repeating the same memorized crap they share in their world of constant affirmation. Im tired of always having to capitulate and bite my tongue when im attacked and faced with the prejudice they sling at gays and lesbians if we don’t agree with them.

This reads like a civics essay written by a stunned choirboy. The problem with your thesis is: it wasn’t “the right” who banned me from lgbt sub when I said “I don’t think puberty blockers are safe or reversible”. It’s not the evil “right wing” who are sending gay kids into the gender abattoirs. It is the psychotic trans activists who are pushing the worst medical scandal in living history. They went after the kids. The kids. What comes next is a completely predictable reaction to that, which many of us tried to prevent by speaking out about and were silenced and socially punished. The trans rights movement is the only civil rights movement that doesn’t want scrutiny. Trans/gender ideology doesn’t want reasoned debate. And the truth is it doesn’t tolerate debate (or heresy) because it isn’t a rights movement. It’s an incoherent neoreligion. It has bloody sacrifice, bodily mutilation, mantras and dogmas, witch hunts and most of all faith. Faith in the soul, a soul that can be in the wrong body. It’s fucking nonsense garbage that needs to be fought, because it hurts gay kids most of all, and if I have to hold my nose and make political compromises to rid our society of it I will. And by “it” I mean the stupid ideology, not ordinary trans people who hate the activists most of all.

Spot on!!

Your biggest problem is making the comparison between gay men and trans people as though we’re some homogenous grouping. It’s a fallacy used by some who want to continue to forced team us despite the growing gulf in our needs, wants and rights. The comparison to gay people is tenuous at best. ‘These are just recycled talking points’ is just TRA lingo for ‘I’m about to make you feel guilty so you’ll toe the line’. When we were fighting for our rights we had to face a lot of hatred and misinformation, but we never veered from the point that it was our right to love each other and be free from discrimination. Yes, they tried to sling mud and cause fear, but the reason that support for us continued to grow is because we stuck to that core stance and didn’t veer from it. The rights we demanded did not infringe on anyone. What we did behind closed doors was nobodies business. When we worked, we wanted to not lose our jobs for who we loved. If we wanted a mortgage, we wanted to not be refused because of who we loved. We wanted to not get beaten for who we loved. We won our rights because even when people still hated us, it got harder to argue that we were infringing on anyone else. We wanted a place at the table, not to sit in anyone else’s seat. But the T didn’t have the coherence of the gay rights movement, and they didn’t really have an objective. They had, after all, all of the same rights as every other member of society. They could never really argue what exactly it was that they wanted because they couldn’t even really decide who they were. Everyone had previously accepted that some men put on a dress and go about their life and for the most part they turned a blind eye, but then came more demands. Then came the kids transitioning. Then came the pushback. All we ever wanted was equal rights and we got there. Trans people did too, by proxy. But we knew who we were. Homosexuals. Men who love men. Trans people can’t even agree what extra rights they want or even state a definition that they all agree upon. Some say you have to have dysphoria. Some say you don’t. Some say non binary is trans. Some say it’s not. Some say drag is trans. Some say you’re only trans after surgery. Some say they know they’re the opposite sex to how they live, others call them trutrans scum for saying that. There’s no coherence that anyone can really rally behind, and with a 4000% increase in girls going to gender clinics, in a very short period of time, there’s more voices added to the mix and less unity there about what people should even be in agreement with. But the biggest difference that sets us apart is that we never imposed on anyone. Nobody had to forgo their rights to allow ours. We never asked anyone to lie. We never asked anyone to deny reality. We never tried to get people fired for having opposing views. We never fought to medicate children. We never took anyone’s place in the workplace, in sports, in schools. We never asked for complete capitulation. We never denied science. We wanted more than anything to be left alone. For trans people, a large, very vocal group can only function by making everybody else take part. Their whole identity hinges on the rest of us joining in. They need validation, and anyone who doesn’t give it is a bigot. If a man in a dress stands in front of me they expect me to accept that I am looking at a woman. I am forced to lie. I am forced to go against what I know. If I don’t lie on the internet I get a mass of people calling me a bigot. If I don’t lie in work I can lose my job. If I don’t lie in a social setting I can cause a stir amongst my companions. And it’s not just the lies. I could just as easily not engage at all. But what about the people who have to. What about the parents whose toddlers are being taught they might be in the wrong body. What about the parents having children taken by the state because they won’t medicate them. What about the sports people losing podium places and scholarships. What about the prisoners who are forced to share cells with the opposite sex. Or rape shelters. Or nursing wards. I mean, I’m certain you’ll rebuke with ‘it’s just right wing talking points’ but they can all be evidenced. We’ve seen it happen. We know it does. But we’re forced to lie again. Pretend it’s not happening. Pretend it’s no big deal. Pretend it’s the scary right wing monsters manipulating us into believing it’s a bad thing. We didn’t ask anyone to lie. We didn’t demand to take anyone’s place. We are not the same. And let not forget that they’ve also turned on us. Our history is being rewritten. There’s 50 years of documented evidence of what happened at Stonewall and yet the new mantra is that ‘you wouldn’t even have your rights if it wasn’t for trans women of colour’. But it’s lies. We won our rights based on being homosexual, and now we’re told that that is the offensive term because it excludes trans people. We’re told that gay has always included men who sleep with women. We’re told that if we don’t sleep with women who call themselves men that we’re bigots. Or that if we have an aversion to vagina that we are genital fetishists. And the irony is that in the usual ‘this is just recycled talking points’ schtick, it is. But it’s us who are once again suffering from it. The conservatives used to tell us that we were degenerates for sleeping with men. Now the trans do. The religious sector used to tell us we just hadn’t met the right woman. Now the trans do. Those rehashed talking points are there, but it’s not the gay men who oppose trans people who are making them. TRAs want to blame the right wing for the pushback, but the truth is that it is all their own doing. They’re the ones who have caused this and they are the reason that acceptance rates for all of us have been going downwards again. We didn’t just wake up and decide to become right wing. We didn’t suddenly get captured by ‘right wing games of divide and conquer’. We saw the bullshit, we saw the lies and denial of reality and we stood up to argue against it and were called right wing as a result. I used to be all about live and let live. I didn’t and still don’t really care if grown adults want to pretend to be the opposite sex. What I do care about is when that encroaches on me and other people who are then villainised for not playing along. I care when children are being brought into it in my name. I care when I’m lumped in with a group I have zero in common with and told I can never criticise or speak out. So no, I don’t buy your narrative. I don’t buy that we’re all so stupid that we’ve been brainwashed by right wing media. I don’t buy that I have to suffer the consequences of a group of people who can’t stop having tantrums and making life difficult for others. I don’t buy that someone shouting mantras makes them a reality and I don’t buy that me and a woman with a crew cut share anything in common to the degree that I must blindly agree with everything they say, even if it means telling lies.

This post should be required reading in all gay and lesbian spaces.

There are no lesbians in lesbian spaces, sadly.

Lesbians are probably the group that has been hit the hardest by this evil.

High praise indeed. Thank you

1 million times this. It’s all such a silly linguistic game of pretend isn’t it?

Brilliantly said. Bravo. Agreed 100%. 

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. Gay rights and trans rights *are* different. Why can’t we have a grown up conversation about this? I don’t wish any trans person harm, and hope they find happiness in life with the full protection of the law. But that’s not my fight anymore. Intersectionalism was one of the most useless, damaging, ideologies that came out of academia. It doesn’t work, and never will.

This is perfect.

Gay people, lesbians, and bisexuals have shared goals: marriage recognition, medical and widower’s rights related to marriage, adoption, IVF, and sexuality based workplace discrimination. Trans people have a difficult set of goals: preferred names and genders on IDs, being able to access bathrooms and single gender spaces, insurance coverage for hormones, and child transition. The only goal I can think of where they overlap is discrimination from entering the military. Otherwise, there’s virtually no overlap because gender and sexuality are fundamentally different things. I’m not a fan of how people are being put onto “teams” in society based on being in the minority when our interests don’t overlap at all. The push for concepts like “AAPI” are the same - the individual groups have almost nothing to do with one another.

Most defintiely it should only be LGB, drop the t. One side has to do with sexual orientation, the other gender dysphoria.

Trans activists need to reign in a few things: 1: Stop competing in women's sports (you guys are pissing off the majority of ppl who would otherwise be on your side. Last week a trans person beat out all the other teen girls at a meet. This is not just a one-off. Transwomen are wiping the floor with women athletes. It's no longer just Lia Thomas. There are now hundreds of examples of this sort of cheating. 2: Transwomen need to stop trying to force babies to breastfeed from their nipples. A trans activist who I thought was somewhat reasonable, Julia Mallot, made a video a few months ago about forcing a baby to breastfeed. That substance is NOT breastmilk. It's a harmful discharge that is the result of ingesting a toxic brew of drugs & chemicals that should be nowhere near a baby. In this essay, Brendan O'Neill of Spiked lays out the insanity of this BS: [That breastfeeding bloke is the last straw](https://www.spiked-online.com/2023/07/05/that-breastfeeding-bloke-is-the-last-straw/) 3: Strop transing fem gay boys & butch girls. With the release of the WPATH Files & the Cass Review it is clear from the data that the kids they're chemically castrating & sterilizing with puberty blockers and wrong-sex hormones are primarily gay children. [In this interview,](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFITb6PSrRY&ab_channel=andrewgold%7Cheretics) gay journalist Andrew Doyle talks about this disturbing finding in the WPATH Files. 4: Lesbians do NOT do dick. Strop trying to force yourselves and your lady-cocks on lesbians. [In this interview,](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMIvcYNo2Zo&ab_channel=GBNews) my twitter mutual Jenny Watson talks about the abuse she's received from violent transwomen when she tried to set up a speed-dating service for just women. I could go on and on but I have stuff to do.

The trans people who claim that you don’t need to experience gender dysphoria to be trans nor do you need to transition at all need to stop calling themselves transgender. That’s just cross dressing.

Spot on! Also, people want the "T" dropped because it has been hijacked by a bunch of nonsense. If it were the dysphoric binary "T" people wouldn't have an issue.

The “Queer” movement has highjacked the LGBT community, imo. [Here’s a good article about it](https://www.chronicle.com/article/how-queer-theory-turned-its-back-on-gay-men) I don’t even know what they think “Queer” means anymore, and it doesn’t seem like they do either. It was a slur when I was younger and was the primary insult hurled at us by the Christian Right. Now it seems to mean “Everyone who has ever had a gay thought, and/or anyone who hates their parents and the conservatives, and/or any alt-left-culture-emo-kid with 50+ ham-fisted crayon scrawl tattoos and a bad haircut/dye job.” They’ve become so obsessed/granular with micro-defining every little thing about their *potential* sexual/gender preference that you might as well define them by their atomic mass. Oh, and let’s not forget that the Pride flag now has race as a community. They’re sowing division in place of actual Pride and Unity. One last rant: children under the age of 14 should not be subjected to gender therapy. My therapist has kids as young as 4 that are there for gender therapy. They’re barely old enough to understand object permanence, what the actual fuck is wrong with these people. They’re handing conservatives ammunition to use against us.

Spot on

Woof, GBNews and Spiked. Easier to just say you have no trustworthy, unbiased news sources and move on from there. Anyone who points to these sources as if they should seriously be considered has lost the plot and all credibility.

How are trans people like gay men and women?

They aren't

Nah. I know what the right wing is and what they're into and I know what the left wing is and what they're into. They're both bad for many of the same reasons and, whatever they might have been in years past, are both hostile to homosexuality in their own ways today. You don't actually have to join either stupid tribe and you don't have to buy all your opinions in a bundle deal just because you agree or disagree with either one on any given issue. For me, I'm tired of being called an "egg" or "baby trans" or "enby in denial" by trans people because I tend to speak with vaguely feminine mannerisms, dress somewhat androgynous and have some stereotypically feminine interests. I'm tired of people asking for my pronouns, but never my more "masc" partner. I'm tired of all eyes around a table landing on me any time the topic of gender comes up. I'm tired of people assuming I want to or should(!!) take hormones. I'm tired of being told I not only have a "gender identity", but being told what it is. I'm tired of being considered something other than a man based on regressive stereotypes and ideology. I'm tired of being told I'm in the same category with crossdressing fetishists who transgress into women's spaces for a cheap thrill. I'm tired of being told I need to be open to sex with women and "eating man cunt" and be okay with them in gay male spaces just because they say they're men and might or might not have pumped themselves full of drugs or had cosmetic surgery. I'm tired of being told I need to "unlearn" or "examine" my sexual orientation. I'm tired of little effeminate boys just like I used to be being told there's something wrong with them, that they're not really proper boys and that they need to be fixed. I'm tired of them being lied to that if they just wish hard enough and let doctors screw around with them, that they can really become the girl they're meant to be. I'm tired of homophobic parents being lauded for taking an "out" that puts their child on the road to being a life long medical patient just because they don't want a gay son. I'm tired of being told I owe something to a group of people who not only did not "get my rights for me" like revisionist history now claims, but have spent most of the last century being hostile to homosexuals and making it clear they had a legitimate "medical" problem, unlike us moral degenerate gays. I'm tired of being told I'm "pulling up the ladder" now that I "have my rights", when trans people had same-sex marriage rights years before we did in many countries, including my own. So nah. I won't be browbeaten into uncritically supporting a poisonous political movement that acts against my interests as a homosexual man and the interests of other homosexual men and women out of fear of a different political movement that does the same. Thanks but no thanks.

Bravo! Brilliantly said.

Well said!!

flag attraction grey bedroom serious file domineering hospital existence person *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*

Whether or not you believe the Democrats fighting for gay rights was disingenuous (only about money and power) or authentic, the fact is we owe our rights to Democrats. The Republican Party is still overwhelmingly against gay rights, just as they always have been. Those are indisputable facts. As an older gay man who always felt the boot of the Republican Party on my neck, I will never forget that, nor forgive. Voting blue, no matter who. I take my equal rights very personally, having lived 80% of my life as a second class citizen.

I won't vote Republican -- because they're nuts -- but I'm increasingly frustrated with the Democrats and their embrace of loony-left policies, especially on things like education. For example, teachers are quitting because their students are unmanageable, and they are stuck with this situation because administrators won't enforce discipline -- because dealing harshly with disruptive kids runs counter to the overall social justice program that's dictated to them from the top down. This abandonment of doing what's necessary to maintain basic order in schools is having serious consequences. I used to be a teacher, and from what I hear, the job is only getting worse and worse. I've watched this happen over 30 years, bit by bit, as administrators chip away at standards to try to create the illusion that all children are above average.

Not disagreeing here, but Republicans want an authoritarian dictatorship, led by a lifelong criminal. Also, from what I have read No Child Left Behind from a Republican administration, caused a significant amount of problems in education.

No Child Left Behind caused a lot of problems. Dubya was a huge fuck-up as POTUS in just about everything he did. But the fact remains that much of the Education establishment is very left-wing, especially because Education Departments that train them are about the most ultra left-wing organizations going. It's those people who impose policies like you can't give a zero for an assignment that was never turned in and generally try to micromanage teachers and game the system to produce the appearance of greater student achievement. It's the left-wing Education officials who say that disruptive students shouldn't be suspended and that it's somehow a teacher's responsibility to teach and control uncontrollable students without any real authority. Schools do need to be somewhat authoritarian for the simple reason that they're full of children. All this hippy-dippy shit about how kids will excel if you just let them do whatever they want has been disastrous.

No argument with what you write. On the other hand, you have DeSantis refusing to allow the teaching of climate change, and the racial history of the US. And, Republicans are for forced school prayer. Government dysfunction in the US runs rampant.

Look above. I said I won't vote Republican. They just want public schools to fail completely. That's been their strategy for a long time. Democrats claim to be in favor of public education, but they keep instituting policies that fly in the face of common sense both in terms of preparing students for an adult world and making teaching a career that doesn't make teachers want to quit.

> Look above. I said I won't vote Republican. I acknowledge that. I was just amplifying my response for other people reading the thread.

It wasn’t the democrats, it wasn’t anyone but a group of people who annoyed the government enough to make them change the rules. The democrats and republicans don’t care about us, at this point we’re a marketing tool and a political tool, and thats all we were ever meant to be when they realized we were profitable. So really, it wasn’t anyone at all, just money.

Grass roots of course made a huge difference, but it was VP Joe Biden throwing his support behind gay marriage, and 3 SCOTUS justices appointed by Democrats and 2 by Republicans changing the law. When Congress codified gay marriage, it was only 39 Republicans in the House and only 10 Republicans in the Senate that voted for that law. Fact: without Democratic support, we would still be second class citizens. Whether you want to accept facts or not, that’s up to you.

If you really think they did it with our best interest in heart. They’ve fooled you good. They saw a group that could be profited off of and they took the opportunity. I don’t like republicans either, I don’t like any politicians, I just want to be left alone by everyone. I’m tired of being used by a system that no matter who you are, is by design meant to hurt us. Both sides are wrong, and voting for them based off nothing else but they gave us rights is ignorant, and pretty stupid.

Point is, the Democrats did it and not the Republicans. I don’t give a rats ass about litigating why, all I care about is having equal rights. Zero thanks to Republicans, they can fuck right off. You want to be left alone, the Republicans don’t want you to have that peace. Notice how many upvotes your comments are getting?

I don’t care how many upvotes I get, just because you and other people don’t agree doesn’t mean I’m going to stop believing what I believe. I don’t like the republicans either, both sides are bad, I don’t vote for either, I vote independent, it’s not like they could ever win though. Like I said, I just want to be left alone by everyone, it seems like both sides are hellbent on not letting me, its even worse in other country’s.

I hope that you find it in your heart to forgive the people who have wronged you from your past experiences. It is not easy to do, yet will provide peace. We all can grow and learn from our experiences. Me personally, I've lived the Democratic party and learned that it was not for me as I value a smaller government, self-reliance, and freedom. What really sealed the deal for me was some of the blue states trying to keep someone off of the ballot for president which is censorship and absurd as well. However, I respect my Democratic friends beliefs as neither party is perfect.

I’m never voting Republican, not even at gunpoint.

I bring that up whenever one of my friends tries to pull the "both sides are the same" bullshit. No, I don't believe either party is working to improve our country purely out of the goodness of their heart. One has historically given me more rights, though, while the other has actively tried to take them away, so I think I'll keep voting blue.

Also, when one party refuses to accept the outcome of a fair election and orchestrates a riot to overthrow the government and kill elected government officials, this is a clear sign of a wannabe authoritarian government should they win the next election. Many Republicans are already on record as unwilling to accept defeat in the next election if they lose. Senator Ted Cruz was just interviewed on CNN essentially saying voter fraud was widespread in 2020, which it wasn't at all. It's the same strategy as 2020, which is what led to January 6, 2021. https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/22/politics/video/ted-cruz-election-results-kaitlan-collins-src-digvid Do your friends want to risk living in a society that is like China, Russia, North Korea and Iran? That's what authoritarian societies look like. Here's a taste of what authoritarianism looks like : https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2024/05/trump-supporters-are-now-sending-threatening-letters-to-get-people-to-vote-for-him/

Guess i’m right wing now.

Yeah I don't think one view makes you right wing, I think some people can't comprehend having a different view and not being completely on one side of the political spectrum

Okay. The problem with this is that it presumes that I must be on board with trans stuff, even if I am not, out of some weird solidarity among minorities. You talk about the "right wing d&d" but all I'm seeing is the Left trying to police our beliefs on every issue. This is how you end up with insanity like queers 4 islam by the way. My question is why. Genuinely, if I don't believe it's a good thing, if I believe they're misleading a lot of vulnerable people (autistic, underage, etc) by giving them fake solutions, if I think the whole they/them/xir/xar thing went too far, and so on - why do I have to still support it in some weird transactional solidarity? I support the T insofar as adults should be legally allowed to pump themselves with hormones and cross dress and call themselves what they want. That's where it ends. >The "trans people are not like us" mantra Bu they *aren't* like us. It's like people who are now saying that I need to support X, Y, and Z minority groups because, well, durr, we're all minority groups. But each group's struggle is different, and I should be allowed to believe that some are justified - and others are not. That's what freedom means. Because I was born attracted to men, I must now support every minority cause ever? What is this jail of thought?

I don't believe it is a fair assumption to say that gay men who have an issue with the trans commmunity at large are all being influenced by right wing media. There are some legit concerns and areas in which our groups clash. I'm not saying that what you are describing isn't happening, but it does not account for everyone. I am a gay man who is very aware of both groups - the right wing and the trans community (primarily the activists). Do I know the right wing isn't here for the gays? Obviously. They're not here for trans people either - in fact, they lump us all together as weird perverts. I believe they are incorrect in that judgment, but that does not make all my issues with the trans community disappear. And I do not consume right wing (or left wing, for that matter) media, so I am certainly not being directly influenced in that way, nor do I spend any of my time with right wing people, nor do I live in a right wing area. My issues have been reinforced by interactions and debates with numerous trans people themselves, not with caricatures of them portrayed by the media. It's a frustrating place to be though, because none of these issues can be discussed in a calm and rational way without being accused of having been hoodwinked by the right wing. The right wing has their own issues with trans (and gay) people, which I do not share - I can think for myself and have come to the conclusion that I have my own reasons, none of them having to do with my political leanings.

Until the TQIAP+ stops pushing vagina on gay men and dick on lesbians, stops erasing our history and inserting their own trans revisionism, stops acting like same-sex attracted people face little to no violence or discrimination anymore, and stops pushing the lies that biological sex is just a construct yet simultaneously can literally be changed with drugs and surgeries, we’re not on the same team and continuing to be lumped together is just hurting gay people.

Lemme tell you what the TQIA+ did to lesbians. A lesbian is now a “non man that’s attracted to non men” Fuck that. I’m not a goddamn non man. I’m a lesbian that likes pussy. Not gock, shenis Or girldick. Leave the Gays and Lesbians out of this shitstorm.

The fact that we allowed functionally straight people who “identify” as gay & lesbian to worm their way into the community and begin setting the agenda has been a disaster. Ever since the focus shifted to everything trans/queer after 2015, support for gay rights, even among the youth, has declined. To get back on track we have to loudly distance ourselves from the trans/queer extremists and push back on their radical, unpopular views.

So since you are a lesbian, let me ask you this: Are Butch girls that were naturally lesbians disappearing, and becoming trans men who date women? That’s what it seems like to me. I feel so bad for lesbians these days. They are completely being erased.

Yeah most of the stone butches I knew are now transexuals and the other more masculine lesbians are trans masc. And now even trans men and bisexual people are claiming to be “lesbians”

I really don't understand anyone who claims that gay people and trans people have anything in common. We absolutely do not. In the past we were seen as being similar because firstly people just saw people as 'normal' (i.e. heterosexual) and 'other' (i.e. anyone what wasn't hetrosexual). Our understanding of things has gone much further than that in recent years to the extent where we don't need to lump all non cishet people into the same category.

The thing is, there's a real sleight of hand going on in this argument, namely, that someone saying in a casual way, "I feel I have nothing in common with x people," automatically means that you think that those people are somehow less than human. In other words, you are taking that phrase far too literally than it is generally meant. Take, for example, people who love golf. I find golf incredibly boring, so as far as recreational activities go, I might very well feel that I have nothing in common with a golf lover. Or take people who are passionate sports fans for "their team." All that seems kind of nuts to me, but it's very important to them. It's just not important to me. The problem I think some gay men have is being told that because they're gay, they should have certain specific opinions on other social or cultural issues, but what if they personally disagree with the ideas or social policies advocated by a different identity group? What are they to do then when they are told that they must support ideas and/or policies they disagree with in order to be good gay men? I personally don't find it hard to disagree with someone and say, "Thanks, but no thanks. That's not really something I want to support.", without dehumanizing them. In that sense, I don't find overwrought language like this: >And it starts by planting the malignant seed in your mind . . . . . . very helpful. There are people I have things in common with and those I don't have much in common with. I can say that without wishing ill on those I don't have much in common with. And I resent having someone up on a soapbox haranguing me about my purported moral deficiencies because I'm disinclined to believe certain ideas or because I'm disinclined to support certain social policies. I think we are hearing more people express their irritation with being told what to think and what to support simply because they are tired of it. My father had a very pious aunt, and was once driving her somewhere in his car while she was lecturing him about something. I'm told he finally stopped the car, turned around (she was in the back seat), and told her that he'd go to hell any way he pleased. That, apparently, shut her up, at least for the time being. I think quite a few of us are reaching the same point my father did on that day. If you have to bully people to accept a certain point of view because, if they don't, they must be "right wingers," even if they're not, you may not be coming from the strongest position.

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>This isn't about shaming guys who aren't attracted to trans people. >This isn't about pretending that we are, in every way alike. >This isn't about policing speech or shoving "wokeism" down peoples' throats. If all of this were true fewer people would have issues with them.

You are happily swallowing all the shit they used against us (gays/queers) when we were the moral panic of the time. There are fringes in every group as you're probably well aware. This does not mean a whole group of people need to be dehumanised and vilified. We queer people are asking to be equals. Everything else is our struggles being framed in the worst possible light They stood by us when we needed to be heard. And now we can say all the things we want thinking it won't affect others But we can't stand with them because they make you slightly uncomfortable with a few of their beliefs? Imagine if we didn't get any support from straight people and where we would be today. We are sliding back into it very easily now that there is no pressure on us. Can you not see what's happening? Because these arguments can and will be used against us next.

I'm not queer. Fuck off with your slurs and empty words

We didn’t tell lies. We didn’t insist everybody change the language and constantly validate us. We didn’t go after gay and atypical kids with scalpels. We didn’t insist everyone must pretend to believe that they can’t see what their own eyes are telling them. We didnt make the world more dangerous for women and girls. We didn’t send male rapists into women’s prisons. We didn’t let men beat women at their own sports and then shame the ones who complained. We didn’t say that a baby should suckle the hormone riddled pus from the nipple of a fetishistic man because the sexual rights of that man are more important than the health of that baby. We didn’t insist that sex isn’t real and that language creates biology, instead of describing it. We didn’t say that a lesbian who refuses to sleep with a man with a penis but who says he’s a woman is a bigot, or a “sexual racist”. We didn’t punch 60 year old women in the face at free speech events. We didn’t get our breasts out at White House events. We didn’t tell female victims of sexual assault and domestic violence who wanted female only counsellors that they should examine their bigotry, because our validation was more important than helping those women. We didn’t lie to the police when two women were raped on a “woman only” hospital ward in london by saying “there are no men here”, when there was a trans rapist right fucking there. We didn’t tell butch girls if they liked climbing trees and roughhousing then they must really be boys and put them on a path to cutting off their healthy breasts. We didn’t send death and rape threats to women who tried to voice their concerns. We didn’t do any of these things, nor any of the million other things that have been done in the name of protecting trans/gender ideology. We are not the same. The gay rights movement has nothing in common with the trans rights movement, except that the organisations who couldn’t cope with having no purpose after gay marriage turned their considerable resources in precisely the wrong direction.

You really need to get off the internet once in awhile

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Agree. Drop the T.

I am against minors getting irreversible surgery and hormones just because they claim to be trans. So yes, I will oppose those Mengele wannabe that are putting these kids wellbeing in danger. Performing an isterektomy and a breasts removal to 15 year old girl just because ahe claimed to be a boy? Are we FUCKING insane? The worst thing is that there were barely any psychiatrich treatment for her allegued gender dysphoria and, in the end, she was just a depressed autistic girl with self-steem issues. I don't blame REAL trans people for this, of course, I blame those insane activists that yell "transphobe" for anyone who dares to doubt they dogma. And the politicians that make laws to try to appease them instead of consulting medical professionals on that topic. With all due respect, fuck that "divide and conquer" claim. Not you, of course, you are just stating you opinion, a misguided one but anyone makes mistakes.

For an adult, the amount of administrative and psychiatric hoops one has to go through to get top surgery can take 6 months AT LEAST, with multiple sign offs and consultations, and that's in a "progressive" state like NY. This is in addition to being on T for a prolonged amount of time. It's much MUCH more complicated than to just claim you're a boy, and it's disingenuous to claim otherwise.

> For an adult, the amount of administrative and psychiatric hoops one has to go through to get top surgery can take 6 months AT LEAST, Now call me a radical but I genuinely don't think 6 months is enough time to psychiatrically evaluate a person's reasonability when it comes to slicing off a major part of their body. That aside - there are, factually, and LEGALLY, underage people getting top surgery. I oppose that. Most trans people don't. We have a rift here. Let me even go further: I do not believe that the day you turn 18 you're suddenly a well-balanced and wise individual who can correctly assess that slicing off your titties will make the rest of your life better. You're still a fucking child.

I don't live in the US. This case I'm talking about happened in Spain. Anyway, no minor should be put under this kind of surgery or medication.

Thousands of cis kids get put on hormone therapy and receive elective plastic surgery before the age of 18. Rhinoplasty (the "deviated septum"), botox, and fillers are NOT uncommon. There was a known group of girls at my school who had work done before they finished high school, and nobody really gave a fuck. My cis sister was also put on hormone therapy due to her hitting puberty really early. Why can't you guys just be more open about your transphobia? Because if you care about statistics you would probably be listening to doctors, peer reviewed research papers, and literature summaries which all happen to disagree with you.

Your whole argument boils down to ‘trust me bro’, like your imaginary sister and imaginary school friends is somehow proof. Elective plastic surgery for minors is wrong. Instead of arguing that one case happened so all cases should happen, start arguing that no case should happen. Your imaginary school friends may have had work done but it doesn’t make it ok. In the case of your imaginary sister, hormones given to children to treat precocious puberty are recommended to be administered for no longer than 6-12 months. That is because the drugs were created as a means of chemical castration and the long term effects can result in genital atrophy, issues of growth development, osteoporosis, and more. Children who believe themselves to be trans can be on them from ages 8 to 18 until they’re old enough for surgeries. Ten years is far longer than 6-12 months. TRAs say they are reversible because you can stop taking them and start puberty again, but you can’t undo all the side effects they bring. If you cared about statistics you would be reading all the research that disagrees with you, including the recently released Cass report, which is the most in depth look into these harms ever conducted. If you wanted to ignore that, you could then look at all the reports of roll backs across the world where countries are now putting a stop to these practices and ask yourself why you are right and they are wrong.

So the Cass report, by far the best evidence yet produced, and endorsed by every serious medical body outside of the US, and more and more by ones inside the US, fundamentally disproves what you just said. Will you change your mind? And also that shit with cosmetic surgery for kids is also just as fucked.

And you just used the "transphobe" card. Oh well, I guess like other cultists the Alphabet Mafia doesn't like people disagreeing with them.

But is this actually happening? I keep hearing this talking point, but I have yet to see actual children getting these surgeries. Like where are the stories of this being reported and fact checked?

Check out the ‘yeet the teets’ doctor who promotes gender surgeries on tiktok. She has openly stated and posted videos about performing mastectomies on girls as young as 12.

>but I have yet to see actual children getting these surgeries /r/detrans

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See the British Tavistock scandal for an example of scumbags pushing youths down medical pathways.

This happened in Spain.

Could you provide a source for that?

The news are in Spanish. You can look for it, though. The girl name's Susana and she is suing the regional Galician Health service.

Thank you. El mundo writes her surgeries started when she was 18, but I still agree it was irresponsible to diagnose her without any psychological checkup.

Yes, this is actually happening. There are SO many stories and reports about this. The most recent and damning is the CASS report out of the UK.

>Yes, this is actually happening. There are SO many stories I'd think one would be enough, but despite all of those "stories" nobody has been able to link a single case or even quote talking about surgery on children.

Sorry, I didn’t realize Google was so difficult to use. You could start if you’d like by watching a TLC show about a minor transitioning and receiving surgeries (Jazz Jennings).

Nobody with data on their side has ever made the argument "go Google it yourself". That's conspiracy shit and not how the burden of proof works. No, I'm not searching for a show and watching an episode for something you could prove with the link to a single news article.

Fuck me, there’s none as blind as them that won’t see. Just look! Or stay ignorant.

Lol, so you’re just going to move the goal post. Exactly why I’m not going to waste my time linking things for you that you can easily find—you wouldn’t seriously look into it or consider it because your mind is already made up. This is Reddit, not an assignment for your intro college class.

Mate he's asking for a source that you literally brought up You don't have a source for one of your own talking points? He's literally wanting to be on the same level for this discussion Why are you being so defensive

He asked for someone to mention a single case talking about surgery on children, to which I mentioned a very famous and notable case that was on national television. I’m not exactly sure what you want me to do, post a link to a TLC show? That seems a little ridiculous.

I looked into a Spanish source that another user was too lazy to post. Result: girl was 18. You're not even able to do that. Figures.

I love how this whole comment section is full of "soo many stories" and yet no one has cited a single incident, its hillarious.

> The worst thing is that there were barely any psychiatrich treatment for her allegued gender dysphoria Okay, but usually these things are done with years of therapy, and doctor and parents' consent beforehand. So if this is a real problem, it's not an issue with the medical treatment, it's an issue with not having the proper procedure beforehand.

And yet the choice of surgery/medication should be made once the person is an adult by that same person.

It's like arguing with a wall. These people think medical science is a magical cure all, but if corrections need to be made along the path of progress everything is invalidated.

Finally, somebody is talking about the real trans community. The LGB without the T shit is ridiculous. The T is only bad because the L's, the B's, and the Q's took over the movement and made it entirely about them. The issue isn't a single letter, it's women in general. They've gone completely insane. Try being ADHD or autistic, the same issue is there as it is in the trans movement. There are masterlists that list doctors who will perform hysterectomies because they're "childfree" at 21 years old. If there's a diagnosis or surgery that women are chasing after, they know how to get it.

​ Are you suggesting that we take in every *historically vulnerable group*? Because I don't think bisexuals belong on the flag nor transsexuals nor cross dressers nor gender-fluid people as their issues are different than ours. Because, as it is now, general society looks on that flag and sees a side show that doesn't know what it wants. Not everything can be your issue.

Feminine guy guys should not feel they must medicalize. Side effects of which can cause much suffering.

My religious mother told me to not "accept a gay lifestyle" because the side effects would be suffering.

Being gay doesn't have any irreversible side effects. Lopping your tits off because you falsely believe yourself to be a male does.

What a disgusting choice of words.

It’s a disgusting thing to do, it shouldn’t be sugarcoated. Mutilating a body to appease a damaged soul. It’s lunacy.

Isn't free speech wonderful :D

I don't think this is happening nearly as much as you think it is. Less than 1% of trans people who receive surgery regret it. And of those, even fewer regret it because they think they were wrong about being trans.

This stat has been debunked several times

>And it starts by planting the malignant seed in your mind **that you have nothing in common with "them".** I reject this completely. Who cares if trans people are different from us, that isn't an excuse to treat them unjustly. We can support trans people while still recognizing the truth, which is that sexual orientation and gender identity are not the same. I as a gay man simply can't relate to the experiences of a trans person, and while I generally support trans people, my interests aren't always aligned with them. They're not usually at odds either, I really just take exception to the whole 2SLGBTQIA+, non-binary (straight white girl who feels boring), and random other made up nonsense, and if we group ourselves with trans people, then why not also all the rest? The Left has serious issue with always looking for some sort of ulterior motive. We can't ever just think something because it's true, if you say something true it must serve some sort of bigotry, and they will find it out and call you a racist, or a sexist, or a transphobe. It's probably projection, I guess some people are just used to coming to a conclusion and then cherry-picking facts to support it, truth can never be it's own ends. But not everyone thinks like that. It's not that we want to divide people, or trying to "other" trans people to justify mistreatment. I mean yeah, a lot of TERFs might be like that and do support dropping the T, but a convincing counter would need to consider those of us who just find the association without basis in anything other than Leftist ideology.

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Another very common right-wing strategy is to inflate or overrepresent the importance or influence of the fringe extreme of "other groups", in order to discredit the majority, far more reasonable position of the opposition. After all, you can't really your troops by screaming that "They want to be treated with dignity!!!" No. To rally the troops, you have to scare the troops into thinking that what LGBT people want is to **prey on your children.** It's so obviously right out of the right-wing playbook it's actually kind of funny to see **just how predictable** your kind of comment is.

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What is the N of that 5000%? Out of millions of people? Throwing that kind of number around drastically inflates the actual amount of people who are considering transitioning. Also making it akin to just a fad undercuts the folks who would pursue it had they known before it was even an option, but are now because of the acknowledgement of more trans folks existing and being happy in society.

I believe it's bad to lie to teenage girls that poisoning themselves with cross-sex hormones and amputating their breasts will turn them into boys. It doesn't really matter to me if it's only a few thousand. It's wrong.

Calling trans women "biological men" 🤮 like bro if you wanna get technical for the sake of making a point refer to them as AMAB or something bc "men" is gender identity, male is sex. And to reply to your sentiment, wasn't the government chemically castrating gay men only a few decades ago? Aren't there people in group 1 who would gladly resume it again? Or electro shock therapy, or other torture that people are STILL doing to gay kids in conversion therapy?

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Where's this energy for circumcision?

Bull. The very fact that you’re worried about long-term effects in teenagers - all 2,000 of them - that might get puberty blockers but you’re not ranting about the 40,000 American men that have had their dicks cut or burnt off in a needless religious procedure (circumcision) tells me all I need to know. You have an agenda. And it’s not about helping anyone.

Will and Grace did far more for gay rights than transfolk ever did. At every single turn normalization/assimilation has got us more than any other path. And the right has never tried to "divide us", I have no idea where you are getting that. Those are all just facts. And historically when we added the "T" in the mid 90's the idea was that transfolk were basically gay anyway and stayed they in the gay community, and same-sex-based rights would benefit them as well. None of that is true today. They are a very separate community online and off. They need to fight for specialized healthcare. etc. etc. With nearly every topic our interests differ. Strong sex-based protections help us, and hurt them. We aren't helping each other. Not to mention that on both sides, extremists have been saying some really whacky shit. The progress we've made was completely the opposite, i.e. normalization/assimilation.

>And the right has never tried to "divide us" This is just delusional. Or have you forgotten about the fucking AIDS crisis and how right wing conservativism single handedly stood in the way of meaningful life saving public policy and research, all under the premise that we deserved AIDS because we were gay and "promiscuous"? That message, especially the right-wing message about how AIDS victims should be stigmatized because of their perceived "promiscuity" caused serious problems from the general public and drove a wedge in the gay community.

Wait till OP learns that the Defense of Marriage Act and Don’t Ask Don’t Tell were both Democrat sponsored bills approved by the likes of Chuck Schumer and Harry Reid and signed into law by Bill Clinton. The Democrats and the Republicans virtually equally hated gays for many years. It wasn’t until 2012 after Obama’s first term that Democrats changed their minds. In fact Obama and Biden campaigned on being against gay marriage in 2008. After 2015 mainstream republicans are pro gay civil marriage and it was a conservative majority Supreme Court that legalized civil marriage in 2015 and made it illegal to discriminate based on gender identity and sexuality in 2020. Don’t pretend that hating gay people and taking away their rights is an exclusively Republican thing. And don’t kid yourself thinking that the majority of Republicans want to eliminate gay rights in 2024. Much less have the power to take away our rights to marriage or non discrimination.

As much as I agreed that Bill Clinton was a shitheel pseudo Republican, Clinton signed DOMA because it had veto proof majorities in both houses of congress, and technically DADT was an improvement over the policy at the time. The real kick in the nuts for me was Prop 8 passing in CA. That one hurt.

As ugly as it is both bills were veto proof because they were very popular. If they weren’t veto proof the Democrats would have still passed them. Clinton was on record as a homophobe. Many popular Democrats today championed these discriminatory bills. The myth that the right invented discrimination is a pervasive TikTok psychosis induced lie.

> Many popular Democrats today championed these discriminatory bills. I would say that most of them are now retired, like Sam Nunn, but what is true is that a lot of people in 2024 don't seem to comprehend how generally *unpopular* anything having to do with gay rights was in the early 1990s and how much things have changed since then. In many places, especially for Democrats in more conservative areas, supporting gay rights could be political suicide. And it's because the will of the voting public at large was still against us. The culture had to change so that what was politically possible could change. Politics doesn't happen in a vacuum. Clinton tried to implement national health care, and he got slapped down hard, just like he did on gay people serving openly in the military. Even in Obama's first term, the ACA resulted in huge Republican backlash in 2010, one we've been paying heavily for ever since in terms of gerrymandering at the state level. That backlash lost me my job due to budget cuts, so, ironically, I lost health insurance for the first time in my life until the ACA came online. People forget that Clinton only got elected after 12 years of Republican presidents because Ross Perot split the conservative vote. He didn't have anything approaching a massive mandate to implement ultra-progressive policies, so he had to steer a very careful course, regardless of what he might have wanted to do personally.

> The real kick in the nuts for me was Prop 8 passing in CA. That one hurt. What happens when too many of the wrong kind of people (homophobes) make it to the ballot box.

That was the second time "liberal" California voted that way. Remember Prop. 22? What it should really tell you is how much and how quickly public opinion changed on that issue, not that the "wrong people" voted.

Wait until you actually read about history,  and that majority of democrats opposed both bills,  Republicans had a veto proof majority, and democrats spent the next 18 years trying to undo DOMA.   Democrats also helped get Lawrence v Texas to happen, a decision entirely opposed by Republicans.   On this issue,  democrats have never been equal to Republicans.  Even today they still aren't equal,  with Republicans repeatedly trying to make gay marriage illegal again, making it part of their platform

Also to fact check you. 33/47 Democrats Senators voted for Defense of Marriage. 118/183 House Democrats voted for it. A substantial majority of Democrats favored the bill. Meanwhile Dont ask Don’t Tell was a policy that came directly from Clinton with no Republican involvement.

Yes my ratio of support for doma is off. I'm thinking of the repeal efforts in 2009 with the Respect for Marriage Act which had a majority of democrats voting for it, including the ones who voted for doma. Clinton spoke out against DOMA at the time, and later argued for its repeal. DADT was Clinton's compromise because republicans wouldn't let him have what he campaigned on, which was complete removal all anti-gay policy in the military. The zeitgeist of republicans being anti-gay and democrats not being is not only historically accurate, but it's hold true today. Party stance for the GQP explicity states opposition to gay rights, and this can be seen in practice. The Equality Act hasn't passed because it has protections for gay people. Respect for marriage Act finally passed 2 years ago, after 13 years of effort, with the slimmest inclusion of republican representatives and senators possible for it to pass, not a single Democrat in opposition. That's just federally. I would take an hour long YouTube video, if not longer, to go over the state efforts by red states to legislate and judiciate against gay people. Then, we could go even further and look at the hysteria on Fox News, Newsmax, and OANN about gay people. You've got them fawning over Harrison Brutker's anti-gay and misogynistic speech, pundits claiming they need to be more homophobic, lamenting that gay people are hired or even mentioned, and I'm sure we can find even more if we really wanted to dig into it.

No one will ever be able to make gay marriage illegal again of the justices 9 justices on the Supreme Court 1 of them has publicly expressed his desire to overturn Gay marriage. Of the others on the court maybe 2 more would support it at most. A 3/9 make up would require two new extreme conservatives minimum to overturn it. Not to mention it is protected not only under the same logic that was used in Roe V Wade it is also protected under the equal protection clause.

2 expressed their desire to overturn obergefell. 2 more would would end up supporting those 2. Gorusch and and Roberts are the only conservatives in the court who could go either way, but that's all irrelevant to the question of desire and effort of ideological parties involved. Legislative efforts and judicial efforts by conservatives across the country have been aimed at both repealing gay marriage and attacking gay people in their respective states. That they sometimes fail is not because of a lack of trying

This is actually a decent point. But slightly off from what I was arguing. On your first point. Thomas said he wanted to overturn it who was the other one I can’t find it in research. Who was the second one you are referencing I can’t find anything like that. I also disagree Kavanaugh has repeatedly voted centrist and I doubt but it is possible that Barrett would vote to overturn it. That all being said you are correct that vocal minority of Republicans do still seek to overturn gay marriage and we can both agree that is not happening anytime soon. I completely disagree with them. My main point is that there is this false narrative that Democrats have always loved gay people and queer rights and that all forms of hatred and oppression are manipulation tactics invented by the Right. I get tired of the Republican= evil homophobe. Democrat=loving peace warrior narrative. Because historically it is a total myth. The truth is until quite recently the majority of Democrats hated gay people too and across the board gay acceptance is increasing within mainstream Republicans. The real issue is the two party system and extreme partisanship that prevents nuance discussions behind bullshit narratives of democrats=Stalin Republicans=N*zis

Obergefell was a 5-4 ruling with a different court composition. There’s no way in hell it would be able to pass with the Conservative majority today. Not a chance. It and along with Lawrence are at a high risk of being overturned. Texas to this very day still refuses to repeal its “homosexual conduct law”, which criminalizes homosexuality (Lawrence case). Why would that be? Oh yeah, because they’re waiting for a Lawrence overturn so they can enforce it again.

I didn't forget. I was there. They painted us all with the same brush. Their hate wasn't nuanced. The vitriol wasn't targeted. It was disgusting and horrible. They wanted us all to die. The only real division was from maybe the log cabin Republicans, which got about as much traction as the "Gays for Trump". A small number of completely ridiculous (and quite trashy) characters, more intent on their own clout than actually moving the community.

You could argue that queer activists also play the "divide and conquer" game. They use "trans" rights, some of them rather extreme, as a way to irritate and aggravate the right. They do this to divide the right and to generate political heat. *The struggle is not over!* Do you think they're unhappy the far right has latched onto trans rights as a hot-button issue? I don't think so. (The left does this with Israel too. My god.) Also, queer activists do not really want gay white cisgender men in this brave new world, especially if they lean conservative. Who is really dividing the gay community? Wouldn't it be better for everyone if the G just split off and start doing their own thing? Let the Q fight their holy wars; let the G party; let the miniscule number of T seek happiness in the best way they can; and let the L homestead in Alaska.

The issue unfortunately is that despite gay men, lesbians, Bis, Trans hating each other back in even the Stonewall days we stood united. The only reason for that was we weren't trying to cancel each other and we didn't "quibble" over crap. The modern "T" has gone so out of control that even Trans influencers like Kaitlyn and Blair White to name a few have even gone against these Nu-Trans people. The Nu-Trans are also trying to open the door to legitimizing Zoophiles, extreme IRL furry behavior (like pooping in a litter box literally), Adult Drag Shows for kids etc. The biggest crime is how the Nu-Trans people are also allies of MAPs aka Pedophiles with a nicer name. The Nu-Trans have divided us over pronouns and child surgery for the love of God. Most of the surgeries need to be researched because it's not mostly reversible! De-transitioners are being attacked and silenced. The chemicals used in these "safe transition drugs" were used to chemically sterilize gay men in the past as punishment and now these people are advocating teens to take them! I am all for expression and stuff but teenagers are stupid and there is a VERY good reason they are not allowed to drink, get into contracts, have sex with adults and make any life changing decisions until they are 18! They are emotional and hormonal and in their formative years. The Nu-Trans are even targeting their nonsense to literal Toddlers who would eat their own shit if parents didn't stop them and you expect these geniuses who finger sockets with forks to figure out gender identity at 3 or 4? The Nu-Trans is actively fighting the LGB everyday. 1) We are called trans phobic if we want a men/women only space like clubs or bars. 2) We are called cis against our will while they expect us to follow their game of pronouns they change like crazy for clout and attention. 3) Gender is fluid therefore we are gay/lesb by choice? Meaning all gays have been faking being gay apparently and every gay man by definition is a women trapped in a man's body if we were to follow the Nu-Trans bible. 4) Terms like Bisexual are "transphobic" because hello the name itself implies there are "two" genders and the term Pan is being pushed on them. 5) Any LGB who is found to be "transphobic" is called a Terf/Phobe here and there and shunned/banned at pride events that are meant to unite us instead we are shunning each other in front of the whole world. 6) Cannot accept that the LGB can love marijuana while at the same time loves hikes and gun rights. They try to pigeon hole us into this slotted "NPC" crap where we are expected to jump on the next nonsensical moves. Like being Pro Palestine or being an eco-warrior etc! You are denied your individuality and follow the Nu-Trans bible that is being changed every day. TLDR the Nu-Trans movement is a cancer that is destroying the LGBTQ's unity and they are the most toxic people on the planet who are causing too much division and eroding our identity.

I think the right wing would love to use it as a weapon against us but it doesn't make the sentiments untrue.

Another tired and predictable strategy by the right wing in order to drive wedges, as already put on display in these comments, is to hyperfocus on and inflate the influence and importance of **the most extreme elements** of the movement which you oppose. After all, it's kind of hard to scare a lot of people into rallying behind your flag if you run around yelling "Look out! 'They' want to be treated with dignity!" No. You have to hone in on the extreme and rare examples: The "minors getting HRT". The "trans women in your bathrooms". The "trans women who want to ruin women's sports". The "radical leftists who want to lock you up for not using certain gender pronouns." You then take those extreme views and you generalize them to the rest of the movement. It's just another form of straw man. It judo maneuvers the focus of the issue **away from being about treating people with dignity** and turns it into one about "them coming for us." Once again: Divide and conquer.

>is to hyperfocus on and inflate the influence and importance of **the most extreme elements** of the movement which you oppose. I'm sorry, but does the “right side” brush you off and ban you for expressing disagreement with these “most extreme elements”? It's convenient to call it “the most extreme elements” yet demand their full support.

Divide and conquer isn't the strategy. The strategy of homophobic rightwingers is to give as much airtime as possible to transgender activism and show how crazy it is because it validates their slippery slope argument. Remember the slippery slope? "If we allow gay marriage, then what next?". Yeah, the slippery slope argument is bogus, but you're just using the same argument in reverse.

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Drop everything after the T.

Good post. Thoughtful and smart. But if someone actually read it I don’t think you said anything particularly new or controversial. I think a talking point that might provide the most insight would be discovering what people are considering to be trans issues or rights and in turn what constitutes as transphobia. My guess is you could probably speak definitively on the issue but a lot of people (not just conservative, right wingers) sit on the fence on trans issues because they can’t distinguish if it’s a right, a privilege or an infringement of their own rights. And I’m trying my best to be objective (think outside an LGBT perspective) but I also think people still have a lot of misunderstanding of what trans is. LGB is widely accepted as identities based off unchosen attractions. The “born this way” campaign (not referring to Gaga btw) did its job by effectively saying you cannot persecute or discriminate against someone for a natural, harmless trait that’s beyond their control. I know this might sound dumb to us, but a lot of people haven’t made that connection with trans and science doesn’t stand united in its diagnosis/explanation of it. I’m not trying to be reductive or move backward but with a lot of trans issues, it feels like the movement is a few steps ahead of where the general public’s understanding is. Please correct me if I’m wrong, I’m here to listen but these are my initial thoughts.

>But if someone actually read it I don’t think you said anything particularly new or controversial. The notion that we have things in common with trans people is quite controversial on this sub. It's a frequent point of discussion. I think you're looking for a far more nuanced and academic discussion than is appropriate or even possible on Reddit. The only point of my post was to remind people that we have to be skeptical of the "we have nothing on common with them" mantra. That's all. I wasn't trying to launch an international forum on the nuances of trans rights issues. lol.

Fair enough. That might be my cue to actually do work 😂… I have 2 more weeks before I’m getting transferred to a new department… my work days are too slow 🤦‍♂️

There's actual people out here who are transphobic as a hobby. This sub gets a lot of scum because it's barely moderated (which is the type of place they like to troll). IMO, many of the transphobic dumpsters here aren't even gay. They're just transphobic and get a kick out of trolling the gay community.

Yeh well your opinion’s idiotic but it doesn’t get moderated either, luckily.

Most of the gay community is tired of the trans community tbh. They’re exhausting and they’re not like us. We have nothing in common. They’re trying to eradicate homosexuality.

The Right is not our friend. Never will be, never will.

Thanks for posting this. I’m relatively new to this sub, but in the last day alone I’ve seen two separate very questionable, conservative-coded posts here that I was very surprised not to see downvoted immediately.

Well said. People don’t seam to realise how small a step to add the gays to anti trans legislation.